Biggest Automotive Failures: Chrysler's Terrible 1958 Electronic Fuel Injection System

[@markbartlett1559]

The main issue with this system were the paper film capacitors used in the electronic control box. Over time they go leaky, especially if they're exposed to damp & then they screw up the calibration & the operation of the unit. In the 60s capacitors were made from plastic film & were way more reliable. Changing out the old caps is a well known task for tube radio & amp repair.

[@gorkzop]

I heard about someone who replaced the original paper ones with the plastic films.. and ran perfect..

[@pcno2832]

One other likely culprit was the germanium transistors that were common at that time. They were known for getting leaky and hissy after a few years and in 1958, there were still some transistor radios on the market with their transistors socketed the same way that tubes were generally installed.

[@frederickbooth7970]

@@pcno2832 I have an old inverter whose transistors are mounted in sockets. Makes for easy replacement if needed.

[@daviddclaussen]

My understanding was the system was not well shielded from external electrical noise, and used wirewound resistors,which acted as inductors when exposed to noise, say, from a neon light. The engineer that fixed the only known operative system replaced the wire-wound resistors with carbon film resistors, and most of the problems went away.

[@greendryerlint]

@@pcno2832 I'd love one of the vacuum tube model FI. Waiting an extra 30 seconds or so before starting the car is not a deal breaker. No worse than starting a cold diesel with a glow plug.

[@HemiChrysler]

I have a Fuel Injection Chrysler 300D 2 dr htp, bought in 2001. It's the car I always wanted.

[@StupidFastTruck]

Richard Carpenter of The Carpenters at one time had a running car with the 1958 EFI. Later Bendix developed the EFI for the Cosworth Vega. I had one, it was a very decent system.

[@greendryerlint]

I'm not a jealous man, but I genuinely envy you your purchase.

[@guateque1718]

Bosch switched from positive switched power outputs to ground side switching. Worked much better than the original Bendix system. I admire the forward thinking of the Bendix engineers of the time and the steel nuts that Chrysler had to try this on production cars.

[@randyrobey5643]

I worked in automotive dealerships that sold European cars from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s. One of the biggest issues with early Bosch electronic electronic fuel injection systems appeared as the cars began to age. The Bosch systems used numerous cloth-covered rubber hoses for fuel lines. As the fuel lines aged, they would begin to leak. When this happened, the cars would usually catch fire and occasionally burn to the ground. This was especially true of the Volkswagen Type 3 and Type 4 cars. The air-cooled engines in those cars added to the heat the hoses were subjected to, and that increased the rate of fuel line deterioration. This issue became so common that we had one mechanic who spent most of his time repairing the less severe "burn jobs."

[@georgeburns7251]

This is sorta of true. Had a 1970 type 3. But VW came out with a stronger neoprene hose in 1973. It was quite easy to replace the old cloth covered hoses. I think the new hose originally appeared on Porsches that had the same injection.

[@pcno2832]

I remember my father taking his Squareback in because it was getting 10 MPG and having the leaky hoses replaced. It's no wonder so many of them burned with the engine in the rear; it was probably easier for the driver in the next car back to smell the gasoline than the driver of the VW.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Loved my CIS on the water cooled vws. Very responsive.

[@randyrobey5643]

@@georgeburns7251 No, most of the hoses were not hard to replace. We used to sell rolls of the hose to do this. The issue was usually owner neglect and/or ignorance. The newer-type fuel line was a smooth, higher quality, all-rubber hose, if I remember correctly. The newer fuel hose was not as prone to aging and degradation from heat and gasoline exposure as the old type was. The Type 4 engines seemed to be the most prone to gasoline fires. The Type 4 engines were larger than other VW engines, so they probably generated more heat than the other models. A number of our mechanics drove VW cars personally, but they always bought Beetles, Super Beetles, or VW Buses with the smaller, Type 1 engines. They also avoided fuel injected, air-cooled cars altogether.

[@steves9905]

There is an Adventurer convertible out there that is absolutely stunning, and it has a working FI system. The restorer, an electrical engineer, by a few happy miracles, was able to find the original FI take-off parts, including that crazy double-headed distributor, and reverse engineer the system to get it to work. One of the major problems is that the system was not well sealed and used the paper-wrapped capacitors of the time, so converting to polymer capacitors helped avoid humidity contamination. IIRC, the 'box' was mounted on the radiator support so was prone to weather intrusion. Anyway is it a jaw dropper and probably my fav car ever...i have pictures of it. One of the best things about are the googie-styled FI emblems

[@roberttore3442]

That sounds very cool!

[@darrylroederer2680]

When those cars were recalled in 1959, the factory told the dealership to remove the fuel injection parts and toss them into a dumpster. Fortunately for all of us, the mechanic Who removed those parts off of an original car had the foresight to tuck them away into his attic and tell his son to preserve them. Rumor has it that when the restorer tried to acquire the parts from the mechanics son, he wanted big big big big big money for them and it took several years for them to come together on a price that was beneficial for everyone

[@WilliamSundquist-gw5dd]

knowledge. Post some of your pictures of it?

The controllers, when rebuilt, brought up to modern specs, protected from vibration, and heat, work ok.

[@richardprice5978]

@@darrylroederer2680 id like to see bendix-EFI one( to bad it wasn't a ~1968-70~ RPO-code/OEM opportunity ) on a 440-6 or hemi car/convertible/charger/super-bird but that's unlikely repop( had it been available in 2016~ id have done that to my 383B+727 as i got tried of dealing with the parts shore and or point's/BBS-carb ect and yes i started off as mechanical and or carbs types ) and or crazy restoration-mod, dodge should have kept to the project/R&D and or released into the wild more to help improve it like how the galaxy-folds got better each generation that and got stubbornness and used the turbine more in the lines for higher level trimming's ( probably at the expenditure of my favourite platform's like RB block or max-head's or doomsday or twin-plug hemispheric, and my less likeable slanted-6 aka 300-410 being lowered-middle economic and jet taking mild to luxury and industrial units/sales ) as i see it as the mopar-king of engines even as a 540-max wedge guy

[@davidgrisez]

I have seen other KZbin videos about the Bendix Electrojector fuel injector system that used on a few Chrysler products in 1958. This video is the best description I have seen about the Bendix Electrojector system. It is not surprising that this fuel injection system was a failure. In 1958 this fuel injection system was very new and to a large extent experimental. It would take more time for electronic fuel injection to develop. Now every car is microprocessor controlled electronic fuel injection.

[@richardprice5978]

shouldn't have stopped them from using glass radio tubes ( wonder if there's anything hot rod market/sale's for that and or a vacuum-tube'd-EFI kit to add to engine's/classics/retro themed-LSX's/3d G-hemi's ect ) ect as a backup plan or release it as 1st generation system, and moving into improvements like digital technology ect like how folding phones and or LCD/OLED's are becoming mainstream now, yes 1st gen wasn't great but you got started with somewhere and delaying it pushed EFI off advances for 30 years or-so instead of being a 1950's-65 mainstream it took people like me to see it value in 2000s-14 era ( OBD2+GM E38 and ford-coyotes is what changed my mind ) and im a zoomer with boomer parents, my sibling doesn't remember what it was like daily a dizzy+carbs as his memory's are after 2005~ aka most carbs were in a junkyard and had 1970 efi-model's been successful id have a similarly life mentality/experience of seeing it as a Kodak/porirod-camera old and outdated ect

[@kevinw1554]

I thoroughly enjoy your detailed explanations and narration! As a long time Chrysler fan since childhood from the time my father bought his new 1962 Windsor 2 door hardtop 383. I was 6 back then. In 1972 my father bought a new Imperial 4 door hardtop (with some rare factory options like cassette and rear heating) that I was allowed to drive at 16. I currently own a white 1960 300F coupe. Also in my garage is a 1968 300 convertible with 20,000 original miles. Your research is definitely the most accurate that I’ve come across on YT. Thank you! Kevin

[@RareClassicCars]

Thanks!

[@jahbad01]

"in my garage is a 1968 300 convertible with 20,000 original miles" - Enjoy!

[@randyrobey5643]

Those are some fine cars. You are blessed.

[@rightlanehog3151]

Adam, Videos like this go a long way in explaining the Great Fuel Injection Panic of the mid-1980s. No wonder old-timers felt the sky was falling when fuel injection was rolled out on a large scale. 😉

What panic? 1968 Volkswagen 411 had Bosch electronic port fuel injection. I had a Cadillac 79 Eldorado with Bosch efi. Worked great. I worked on all of them. No big deal

[@CreeperOnYourHouse]

Yes, many of which were swapped over to carb by mechanics the moment something went even slightly wrong.

[@eugenepolan1750]

I remember hearing of people having the Rochester fuel infection systems ripped out of their GM products and swapped for carburetors. The reason I heard was that the mechanics / technicians had no experience or faith in fuel injection and inadequate training for working with the Rochester system. When they ran into customer issues that they couldn't solve, they converted the vehicles back to the technology that they were familiar with.

[@weegeemike]

Crazy to think that fuel injection had been around on a large scale since the 50s and even earlier in some rare occasions, and it took until really the mid 1980s to get it to where injection, especially EFI, became reliable and efficient. Now we're back at square 1 with the advent of direct injection that is causing all sorts of issues with carbon buildup. Good old port EFI is still the most reliable and trouble-free EFI, even though it's slightly less efficient than GDI.

[@pootispiker2866]

Old timers always think the sky is falling

[@madmike2624]

Great content Adam. You must have hours of research to make these videos, and I wanted to tell you how much I/WE appreciate your hard work and valuable time it takes to make these informative videos. Bravo!!~

[@adamtrombino106]

I have several books on the Letter Cars, and each talks about the FI system for 58, complete with pics and dyno numbers. In the lab, it worked pretty well! But in production, the 'brain' was mounted just inside the grill near the driver's side headlight, where it was subject to all kinds of weather. 1 book describes engineers testing a 300 D with FI at their proving grounds track. On a warm dry day, it was impressive! However, 1 younger tech tried to take the car out for testing on a cool rainy day. It wouldn't start w/o ether. Once it did finally warm up, it made it about halfway around the rack before it stalled and wouldn't re-start. Reportedly, the tech suggested some sort of cold start compensation via thermo vacuum switch, as well as moving the 'brain' to the interior under dash but production was out of $. This man went on to work for Ford in the mid 60s, and took his coolant controlled thermo vac switch idea with him, and they used the idea for decades across the industry for emissions controlled devices.

[@scottsullivan1464]

Could you start doing videos on Air Cooled and early VWs, 124 Fiats, MGA/B, W123 Mercedes, Peugeots, Internationals, Willys Jeepsters, etc? There is so much more ground you can cover and still maintain your quality. I think it would broaden the appeal of your channel. You should have 10x the subscribers

[@fleetwin1]

The RFI issue is totally believable, we experienced the same stuff when we introduced our DFI outboards in 1997!

[@randyrobey5643]

The old Chrysler F.I. system reportedly had issues when owners drove down roads that had power lines running beside them, because of the EMI/RFI.

[@Sheisthedevilyouknowwho-ft9we]

Thanks guys , both of you, for posting. I was wondering if it was this or a different system that had RFI issues, just like you described. I saw a story on this years ago....Leno? I don't recall.

[@randyrobey5643]

@@Sheisthedevilyouknowwho-ft9we I think Leno has discussed this issue.

[@davidraezer5937]

Had it not been for Bendix we would not have gotten Bosch EFI. Incidentally the Bosch D-Jet system was all analog as well as the L-jet system that followed initially. It’s interesting that Bosch K-jet was a mechanical fuel injection based on airflow. I’m sure they were co developed with the automotive manufacturers based on specific criteria. For instance Mercedes was reluctant to use electronic fuel injection probably based on issues it had with D-jet in the early cars. They switched to K-jet and then later to KE-jet with electronic support. The beauty of KE was that it was still mechanical at heart and if the electronics failed the engine would still run. When they switched to electronic fuel injection in the late 80’s their control units were well shielded and removed from as much environmental issues as possible.

[@gregorymalchuk272]

Digital electronic fuel injection leap-frogged them all in terms of reliability. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stayed with some from of the Bosch electromechanical fuel injection into the early 1990s.

[@davem8790]

The early D-Jet was controlled by an analog ECU that was susceptible to heat, vibration, moisture etc. The technology for making these controllers robust was not yet developed. The story goes that M-B went away from that to the K-jet system in the early 70's after some more influential owners of their V8 flagship cars from in middle east complained that this could leave them stranded in the middle of the desert. Therefore the reversal in technology - up until the early 90's (KE-Jet) for their flagship models.

[@juhomaki-petaja]

Bosch made D Jetronic from bendix system. Germans tinkered it and added coolant temperature compensation and all problems were gone. Later it was refined to L-Jetronic, genuine digital ECU injection. Reliable as hell. Oldest are near 50y old and still work like as new. GM Europe used these at Opels. I have had many, most simple injection and can be installed to every pre 1990 engine.

[@compu85]

The Bosh electronic injection system Mercedes and VW used in the late 60s / early 70s is basically identical to this system, just with more modern components. Bosh licensed the design from Bendix! So it shows the basic design was sound.

[@billmalec]

Bosch

[@cdjhyoung]

I could believe that WJR radio that broadcast their signal at 50,000 watts could in fact interfere with those injectors.

[@Greatdome99]

Yup, if some low voltage wires were not shielded and grounded, they acted like antennas, picking up stray currents.

[@MrPoppyDuck]

Very interesting. My parents had a 71 VW which has fuel injection and it ran great. Started on cold and hot days just fine. Great gas mileage too.

[@randyrobey5643]

Like any other car, if you knew what you had and maintained the car as needed, they were usually good cars. However, early F.I cars could be a pain. I owned a 1972 Volvo 164 that had the Bosch Electronic F.I. system, and its drivability was completely random. Its 3 liter engine also got 10 miles a gallon, year round.

[@Jody-kt9ev]

Great video as usual. There are so many crap car videos now. One "list" video had the Pinto and Vega listed in the "Worst 1950s cars". This makes your videos stand out even more.

[@TheJoefussGarage]

Absolutely loved this story, and especially the running comments!!!! Thank you very much..

[@randyfitz8310]

Adam, thank you for yet another very interesting video, we (your subscribers) really look forward to the fun of learning from you!

[@fuse8052]

I have been to Chrsyler Classics and Mopar Nationals. I've never heard of this. Thank you for telling me about this and informing me about it

[@bobcoats2708]

Adam, you might enjoy the Jay Leno’s Garage video about his paint and body man’s 300D, posted about five years ago. Per upgraded the original Bendix injection with some modern electronics and got it running pretty well.

[@campingkillen]

My first car in the mid 80´s was a -71 Mercedes 250CE with the Bosch D-Jetronic, and it worked just fine! I had to replace a few injectors though, because of leaking issues, but that was an easy fix and not too expensive back then. The computer for it was the size of a small briefcase😅

[@brentleslie8156]

I had no idea that fuel injection appeared so early.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Earlier than this ,if you want to see mechanical fuel injection then trot back to the 1930s or so. It worked ,but I'm sure the materials are the time were a limiting factor for cost and reliability

[@BrunoRegno]

Well... Hang on... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection#:~:text=In%201891%2C%20the%20British%20Herbert,high%20pressure%20to%20an%20injector.

[@ThreeWheelFlyer]

This was the first Electronic fuel injection system made. However, mechanical units were made prior to this. GM had a Rochester unit in 1957, and Mercedes Benz had a fuel injection system in 1955 on the 300SL Gull Wing.

[@DSP1968]

An excellent overview, Adam! I learned a few new things here.

[@richsarchet9762]

Mom had a 76 Seville. The Fuel injection worked great, until it didn't. Before the first failure it started and ran great at slow idle at any temperature. Then one day it only ran on 4 cylinders. A new "Computer" got it running on all 8 again (for about $1,000 in 1980), but brought with it an extremely high cold idle speed that lasted 10 minutes or more - the brakes would be smoking from trying to hold the speed down to 25 or 30 mph driving in town. Once it finally calmed down it would then stumble on every throttle angle change, sometimes backfiring into the intake - this was overcome by matting the pedal which apparently caused full throttle enrichment, which many times squealed the rear tires - not bad if you are a 16-year-old boy, but mom was not a fan. I think you are wrong about the Bendix system having feedback air-fuel control. I think that was what it really needed, but did not have. My 1980 Volvo 264 GLE may not have been the first, but it's the oldest car I ever worked on that had a Lamda (O2) sensor.

[@RareClassicCars]

It got it in 1979

The fast idle valve in the throttle body, used heat to close the air bypass. Simple fix, if the car had been taken to a dealer, or Cadillac specialist.

@@thewiseguy3529 No warranty? I got a feeling there is more to the story.

[@thewiseguy3529]

Just told you the fuxking story. Just asked my grandma what happened, all the family still together after Thanksgiving. The fkng car was out of warranty obviously you dlldo or she would have got a new one genius. Don't go around on the internet acting like you're a smart cake. You know you don't know sxit about nothing. Going around calling people liars while you're all drunk. Gtfoh

[@thewiseguy3529]

The car was already out of warranty you dild0 brain. Go have another drink, while you go around on the internet calling people liar$. Freakin welrdo!!!! 😵‍💫🥴

[@RomanJockMCO]

What's the deal with Chrysler and fuel injection? Two decades later, they screwed up the Imperial.

[@pcno2832]

Yes, that was sort of a one-off. I've heard that it was developed by former NASA engineers, but I've never heard any explanation of what kind of system it was. No astronauts were lost from its failures, but it did leave an angry Frank Sinatra stranded on the side of the road. Surprisingly, Chrysler's next attempt, on the 2.2, was relatively trouble-free.

The 81 Imperial system, looks a bit like the 58 system, at least the fuel part. I converted one, in 1993.

[@James-xo4uv]

The Imperial fuel injection was developed by Chrysler's electronic devision, which did some development for NASA rockets , unfortunately the fuel injection didn't work, who really knows ,many can speculate why it didn't work , but unfortunately for Chrysler it didn't work on the Imperial

[@colinschmitz8297]

I guess The question becomes how much was the 81 through '83 imperials fuel injection system in house versus how much of it was based on someone else's system? Then, how much of the K engine was in-house versus how much if it was based on someone else's system?

[@jamesbulldogmiller]

@5:09 1954 to early 1955 Buick engine with Bendix fuel injection (valve covers and spark covers are the tell for the year range)

[@dave1956]

You must admit that in modern vehicles fuel injection is in my opinion the biggest advancement in about 50 years. I had several cars years ago with crappy carburetors and compared to today there is no comparison.

[@geralderdek282]

Ive always been facinated by rare automobile options and accesorries. Another one of the rarest to find today is air suspension from the late 50s. Im fortunate to have a 1959 Rambler Ambassador with working factory air suspension,Amc called Air coil ride. I would love to see you do a video on those air suspension systems of the late 50s.

[@DanEBoyd]

I'll bet someone could make that Bendix system work quite well, with some hidden modern electronics.

[@ranasneed451]

I dig your content brother..nice job. 😊

[@relgeiz2]

Well, the Bosch D Jetronic might have been a refined version of the Bendix electrojector. But ist wasn't sufficienty refined. At the time Bosch started the production üf the D Jetronic there were still a few strong AM radio stations left in Germany. The strongest by far (1122 kHz, 1.2 MW) was in Heusweiler, right next to the A8 Autobahn. Around 1970, a wire net had to be stretched across the autobahn as a Faraday cage to prevent D-Jetronic cars from stopping near the transmitter.

[@nhzxboi]

I was around for the '80s Imperial fuel injection. It was an analog injection system with naive digital assumptions. Still, it was a fun thing to see. I'm glad I never owned one. I did a TSB on one 1981 or 2 or whatever it was 'convert to carburetor' TSB on an Imperial of that time. I am pretty sure the 80s Imperial fix was a TSB and not a recall. Nonetheless, for an 18 y/o mechanic at the time, it was a very involved TSB. Pallet of parts and hours of work...Replace a crappy system with a less crappy system. No-one felt good about it but it was a fix that was at least an effort. I was a young buck and more interested in how the original system worked. We had the clear plastic air cleaner cover that allowed you to observe the fuel-dripping straws controlled by pressure through a discrete air-vain vortex sensing system. Geesh...what junk. But it was fun being around and seeing the fun in the early '80s. Those special tools now. What would they be worth?

[@aberobinson1]

If I recall correctly the retrofit required replacement of the fuel tank as well. You must be about my age, in your 50s? I remember being young and working on these cars... that digital dash and how it communicated with the fuel injection system was advanced. I believe there was a flow meter in the fuel line?

[@pcno2832]

10:53 I've read that the system in the '76 Seville's 350, which was also available for the 500 and 425, was really just a rehash of the Bosch D-Jetronic and Bendix Electrojector technology and that the term "computer", especially by VW, which made the metal box clearly visible in the vents on the left tailfin of its Type-3 models, was a stretched reference to analog computing, which often involved the use of op-amps and feedback loops in a "summing" configuration. Cadillac heavily touted the 1980 368 engine as having the world's first digitally controlled fuel injection, and it was a step forward in that respect, but it also used a single throttle-body injector in place of the 8 port injectors in the Bendix and Bosch systems, which some saw as a step backward.

[@formerice]

At least Chrysler had balls enough to try it.

[@Greatdome99]

Yeah, but they were YOUR balls, not theirs.

[@jmflournoy386]

I was working for Mike Rickers' Ricker Motors Nash Dealership in a big old gas station. Mike had a 57 Rambler rebel that had the Electrojector. Worked fine we swapped out the new aluminum 57 hydromatic for the 56 cast iron. Mike was told he could not sell it. no cold weather problems in so cal we later raced this car with the carb, had to double key the axles even with the then "stock" tire requires Mike did not send the injection back to the factory but I do not know, or remember who ended up with it

[@billmalec]

Had a1975 Opel 1900 that had I'm assuming Bosch FI. Funny though it had ignition points. The fuel injection never messed up once.

[@Sedan57Chevy]

Chrysler had a deserved reputation as the engineering company back in these days. Its almost surprising that they didnt keep persisting with iterations of this system, in the same way they kept the turbine concept around for decades

[@jessevongnaraj2276]

I work in a vintage Mercedes shop where cars with “d-jetronic” are very common. Bosch will still repair or supply many of these legacy parts, if Mercedes doesn’t supply. The cars always ran better with d jet, over the mechanical injection of some of the other models, but the way a d jet car would start and run was always impressive, much smoother than the mechanical cars, however, it’s a fuel system of constant adjustment unlike the mechanical setups Mercedes used on other models

[@RareClassicCars]

Awesome!

[@k4106dt]

My friend's Dad had a 1973 Volkswagen 412 with Bosch fuel injection. During the CB craze of the late 70s, my friend installed a CB radio in it. The engine power would drop off whenever he keyed the mic because the RF signal would affect the injection electronics.

[@sharedsailing4787]

That is a really nice looking Chrysler 300D. A far cry from the 300D of the 2000s 😂

[@u.e.u.e.]

9:15 It's said that this happened with the first German after-war 12-cylinder in the BMW 750i (E32 with M70 engine) in 1987 when cars passed by the sending antennas of the Bayerischer Rundfunk, too. 🤭

[@Rom3_29]

1950-60s Chevrolet had mechanical fuel injection system for few years. Wonder why GM stopped selling them? My dad worked at Mercedes and the 300SL gullwing had the mechanical Bosch fuel injection setup. Mercedes setup was different from other vehicles used. He hated it because complexity get the car running ok.

[@damianbowyer2018]

Fuel Injector Systems have to be perfect and ultra reliable, but back in '58, Chrysler needed more development before putting it in their new models, eh Adam....The Cold Compensator problem fixed eventually. Cheers fm Damo.

[@larrymcsorley9899]

One correction: “The Forward Look” started with Chrysler’s 1955 models. The all new 1957’s were actually the second generation of “Forward Look” vehicles.

[@Glasscitycarnerd]

It was interesting that Chrysler and AMC dared to advance the technology. I view these like I do the Cadillac V8-6-4 of two decades later. Great ideas that would become commonplace, but the tech wasn’t ready at the time.

[@peterolson8350]

Would be interesting to equip such a car/engine with a modern ECU and some extra sensors

[@Paramount531]

I agree on the "innovations" coming out when the electronics were subpar, a good example was the Cadillac V8-6-4 in 1981. These days the electronics are good, though cylinder deactivation takes a toll on engine life. I'll always default toward proven technology.

[@aberobinson1]

Ok.. Hopefully your next video can be about the 1981 Imperial. The fuel injection system was really precariously balanced from the factory. The Imperial was a super fancy car with a digital dashboard and the dash could give you information like 'distance to empty ' it used a flow meter in the fuel line to determine that iirc.. the whole thing was a failure and chrysler was retrofitting them to carburetor under warranty. The retrofit kit included a new fuel tank ..it was a complicated mess.. the biggest issue is that the car cannot and will not run with the air cleaner lid off. Mechanics didn't understand that when trying to make it run

[@cs1-p5e]

so there was nothing to replace the choke mechanism, brilliant

[@mopartony7953]

8:02 MCM styled branding on carbs. Classy days they were.

[@anthonydavis5993]

Jay Leno had a guy on his show the had one he converted to modern injection, using the the mechanicals but installed modern injectors and computer. Pretty cool

[@Dark_Knight_USA]

Greetings: Problems then, same problems now. Think KISS and it will B good. Thx 4 the share.

[@kc9scott]

You mention some (more recent) FI systems that vary the fuel pressure as well as the pulse width. I’m curious about that. The one system I’m familiar with is on DSM cars, where the fuel pressure regulator is referenced to the manifold pressure. Therefore the injector flow rate will be constant, regardless of throttle position or turbo boost. I consider such a system a “constant fuel pressure” system, since it’s constant as seen by the injectors, and you entirely vary the fuel amount via the pulse width. Does anyone have examples of a system that goes beyond that, and intentionally varies the fuel pressure over a wider range? Is it for port injection, or direct injection? I expect that a modern computer could easily use a fuel pressure sensor and calculate the expected injector flow rate for any condition.

[@charlesdorval394]

Nobody wants to wait to start their cars ... then they did it anyway with diesel and glow plugs hehehe

[@jasonrivers7518]

I think this setup is used in the movie "Christine", in the scene where Arnie learns that Christine is perfectly capable of repairing herself, thence the odometer that always runs backwards, in the movie.

[@michaelmihalis9057]

Adam,Jay Lenos employee restored a fuel injected 300 and there is a video on it on Jays garage.Mike the Greek

[@gregorymalchuk272]

Digital electronic fuel injection was the best thing to happen to cars. GM should have put throttle body injection on everything the same year the Iron Duke got it in 1982. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stuck with some descendants of Bosch Jetronic electromechanical abomination fuel injection into the early 1990s.

[@PistonAvatarGuy]

The Japanese used Nipppn-Denso EFI systems that were license-built versions of the Bosch systems, and they were incredibly reliable. They had clearly made some improvements to the Bosch systems.

[@dosgos]

We had some cars with those Bosch fuel injections. They were okish but when they were off....

[@DinsdalePiranha67]

I must have been very lucky. While I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the Bosch CIS fuel injection system, it was one of the few things that *didn't* give me heartburn on my '82 Audi Coupe.

[@juhomaki-petaja]

GM Europe used Bosch Jetronic full digital versions from 1970s. L-Jetronic, LE-Jetronic, LH, LE2 and Motronic. Those work like magic, and still do, even they are almost 50y old. But VW, Mercedes, Volvo used mechanical K-Jetronics for some reason. Overly complicated, but reliable too

[@buzzwaldron6195]

The 1980's EFI gave a lot of trouble that even the dealers/manufacturers couldn't fix... hence the Lemon Laws... they had to eat what they couldn't fix...

[@michaelsemanoff7967]

I keep reading that AMC didn't sell any injected cars BUT the owner of the AMC dealer I worked at (for forty years) always claimed to have had an injected '57Rebel. They ended up removing it and replacing it with a carb. He was not known for hyperbole. It is also not impossible that it was a test rig from AMC. A properly set up Rebel with the 327 (no relation to Chevrolets) would have made an already VERY fast car even faster.

[@compu85]

Hm, I'm guessing they didn't have the "5th injector" and thermo time switch, a separate system to give and extra squirt of fuel in the intake for cold starts. That's what the later Bosch systems used, and it worked well.

[@RareClassicCars]

Nope

[@MrTheHillfolk]

7:20 always wondered what happened to the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. I didn't hear the kaboom. Wheres the kaboom?

[@jeffkoe310]

There should be no injection before perfection.

Here is a fun fact; The 1957 Rambler was the first to try the Bendix Electrojector fuel injection. I doubt if any cars ever got sold with it, just pre-production.

[@towgod7985]

Another great video. This graphically shows why electronics are not the panacea that the industry wants you to think it is. People over forty remember the problems that cars had in their younger years had because the technology was not mature. Daily reliability is one reason carburettors endured for so long.

[@Jasona1976]

You must still ride a horse.

[@PistonAvatarGuy]

​@@Jasona1976He probably just drives American cars. Digital EFI is likely one of the major reasons why Japanese cars were able to gain so much market share in the '80s, they just did it right.

[@Jasona1976]

@@PistonAvatarGuy of course you can prove that??

[@PistonAvatarGuy]

@@Jasona1976 I said that it's likely, I didn't say that it was fact. In my experience, Japanese EFI systems were basically flawless, while American (and European systems systems) were always having some kind of problem. The sensors in American systems always seemed to have problems, but I don't think that I ever had to replace anything other than O2 sensors on Japanese vehicles, and those are basically a wear item. The only other EFI related issue that I ever had with any Japanese EFI system was related to the purely mechanical IACV on the first gen Honda EFI systems, but that was when the cars were quite old and had over 200k miles on them.

[@Jasona1976]

@ so your experience with two Japanese cars makes you an expert? LMAO DUDE

[@portsboy1]

Welp that explains the horrible injection on a Porsche 914 I had. Threw it away converted to dual carbs

[@basspig]

Imagine vacuum tubes in the harsh vibrational environment of an engine.

[@warmstrong5612]

I think Chrysler could've made it work but releasing it for '58 was too early for it to succeed. If they debuted it in the mid-sixties then maybe. Having EFI on the Hemi or 440 would've spurred on development much faster and maybe even given Chrysler a leg up during the fuel crisis.

[@buzzwaldron6195]

Maybe '58 system would have worked longer with control box protected inside under the dash...

[@andoletube]

I wouldn't agree with everything presented here regarding variable fuel pressure being a desirable thing. That would only add to the complexity of a fuel injection system. Constant pressure and well-controlled timing, pulse-width and air-control is the reliable way to do it.

[@vinnieluther6589]

Yup, he was definitely off on that comment. All the EFI systems I'm aware of try to maintain a constant pressure differential between the manifold and fuel rail so the injector pulse width has a linear control over fuel delivery after compensating for the time to open.

[@MichiganPeatMoss]

I recall old stories in the early 80s from amateur and CB radio enthusiasts about slowing down cars on the highway with their mobile linear RF amplifiers when transmitting. Sounds synonymous with the WJR story.

[@danlove4270]

Never knew they had injection back then

[@bobhill3941]

I didn't either, I wonder if Chrysler used the same system Pontiac used on the Bonneville?

[@RareClassicCars]

Nope. Different

[@warmstrong5612]

@@bobhill3941 That was a mechanical injection system.

[@bobhill3941]

@RareClassicCars Thanks, keep up the great work.

[@bobhill3941]

@warmstrong5612 Thanks

[@will7its]

Holy cwap that Rebel is just plain goofy.....Rebel....lol

[@claytonwoodward9459]

I had a VW beetle with injection on it ran great

[@andrewsmart2949]

yeah i seem to remember GM recalling the rochester "fuellie" injection systems mainly on corvettes,didnt know chyrysler had similar issues,i recon it would work well with some modern sensors and fuel injectors,but the fact chrysler introduced EFI in 1958 should make all street driven big block chryslers eligle for registration without an engineers cert for EFI LOL

[@NorWis744]

I do not believe modern fuel injection systems vary fuel pressure at the injector manifold.

[@NorWis744]

@ Regulators hold fluid pressure to a constant pressure. In fuel injection systems a constant fuel pressure at the injector allows the injector to deliver a consistent amount of fuel, based on the time the injector fires. In the video Adam states modern fuel systems vary fuel pressure to control fuel delivery. I think Adam misspoke. Not a big deal.

[@MrDavidstallsmith]

Back when Chrysler was an industry leading innovator.

[@jetsons101]

I can't imagen the drain put on the battery trying to power up "Vacuum Tubes." I guess Rochester did a better job for the Corvette, although it had some issues also.

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

At that time it would’ve been much better going with mechanical fuel injection, like a diesel but not direct & not pre-chamber, like the later Lucas Mechanical Injection, which contrary to it’s Lucas branding, was in fact very reliable.

[@KarlAdamsAudio]

Bendix had quite some experience in electronics at this stage, having released the G15 computer (using vacuum tubes and semiconductor diodes) in 1956. Even assuming it was possible to resolve the shortcomings of this system using the technology of 1958, it was never going to make economic sense in a mass production context - if a system that was simplified to the point of ignoring a key input like coolant temperature was still 20x the cost of a carburettor, how much would it have cost to actually sort out all the issues?

[@Colorado_Native]

There used to be a TV program, Crime Story, where one of the officers drove a black 1957 Chrysler 300C convertible. That was/is a beautiful car.

[@DanEBoyd]

Reminds me of when someone's alternator would die on their GM product, we'd say "Delco Remy reamed me again..."😅 I wonder if anyone said "Bendix bent me over again," as a carburetor was retrofitted to their shiny Chrysler!😂

[@markhawkins6276]

The school of hard knocks, it all has to start somewhere.

[@automatedelectronics6062]

Pretty much all electronic multi-point fuel injection systems were under Bendix patents. Bosch introduced a perfected system on VW in 1968 and Mercedes-Benz in the early 70's. Although considered an electronic system, these used mechanical trigger points. The perfected systems were known as the Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection. A word on the Rochester fuel injection, these operated under Bosch patents and when Bosch introduced a refined system in the mid-70's, it would be known as the CIS fuel injection system. Cadillac re-introduced the Bendix fuel injection, vastly improved, on the Cadillac Seville. As far as the oxygen sensor, working at a Cadillac dealership when these cars were still in warranty, I don't remember the Bendix units using them. Possibly it might have been added for the 1980 model year like other GM applications. These Bendix fuel injection units didn't have any self-diagnostics. That would come for the 1981 model year in GM cars and that's when Cadillac introduced it's first Digital Fuel Injection system. The previous Bendix fuel injection systems were analog. In 1982 when GM introduced the electronic fuel injection system as the "Cross-Fire", it was analog, as were the ones to follow.

[@StalinTheMan0fSteel]

Vacuum tubes require high voltage. What was the system to achieve high voltage from a 12 volt automotive system?

[@pcno2832]

Many car radios were made with "vibrator" driven cycling power supplies to step up the voltage. In the late 1950s, some of these were replaced with radios that used "space charge" tubes that worked (some would say barely worked) at 12V, and a single transistor with a huge heat sink for the output stage. The last use of tubes in car electronics I can name (other than vacuum-fluorescent displays and touch-screen CRTs) is in the auto-dimming circuit of the 1964 Cadillacs. I'd guess that they were space-charge tubes running at 12V. PS: I believe that any pentode can be run in space-charge mode by running a small current through one of the grids, but that the tubes made for car electronics were specially optimized for space-charge operation.

[@StalinTheMan0fSteel]

@pcno2832 Ok, thanks! 👍

[@michaelmccallum9874]

Alas.. Yet the 1957 Chrysler 300 was considered one of the most beautiful cars in the world

[@drippinglass]

It seems the Rochester Fuel Injection that was optional on Chevrolets small block was the only successful application at the time. The hot rodders however soon found they could make more HP with dual quad setups at the drags.

[@elliotwelz9793]

Thats true but there is no more beautiful sound then a Chev fuele idling ;that hiss that sounds like a snake .

[@peterbenson3776]

Interesting.

[@tnmrvc]

there were definitely circuit boards, I think you meant to say ''integrated circuits'' which, also did exist at the time albeit in a lab setting

[@Erik_Swiger]

Hindsight's 20/20, but it seems like it would have been easy to add one extra fuel injector for cold-weather starting.

[@lh5943]

We still have the 300D with 2 4bbl and two extra 392s

[@Iowa599]

were there vacuum tubes in the 'computer'? was it digital or analog?

[@kc9scott]

He said that the early versions of the Bendix system used vacuum tubes, but they changed to transistors as soon as they could (I’m a bit surprised to hear that transistors were up to that task in 1958). He didn’t mention whether any vacuum-tube injection systems got used in production cars.

[@Iowa599]

@kc9scott damn, I missed that, twice! thanks!

[@joemazzola7387]

Whats a vacuum tube?? Lol I remember a time when my dads 59 ford galaxy 500 radio had to warm up before it worked That picture is a Volkswagen type 3 engine It didn't give me any trouble other than fuel hose leaks

[@DinsdalePiranha67]

A vacuum tube is that thing all classic guitar amplifiers use to give you that superior tone! ;) Said the guy who switched to a digital modeling amp almost five years ago.

[@juhomaki-petaja]

Antique transistor etc. Google

[@frederickbooth7970]

My old 1962 Ford radio had tubes & took a few minutes before you would hear anything.

[@normangiven6436]

The accountants deleted the faraday cage enclosure due to cost cutting, the unit would fail due to power line interference. those who have one of these rarities will notice the lack of RF shielding.

[@Katchi_]

I bet you are one of those ameritards. Am I correct?

[@nhzxboi]

The effort foreshadowed things in the 1980s. US OEMs were creating systems that never worked well when working as designed. I shifted from a Chrysler to Ford tech at that time. Brand new cars did not run well enough to be acceptable in terms of drivability. Not all(Ford for me at the time) models were like that but there were many(smaller engines) that were just plain unacceptable in terms of drivability. Ford: Tempo/Topaz w/ Webber carbs. comes to mind. Ask the Ford hotline and they'd describe a certain size BB to install in a particular vacuum line just as a 'test'. Yep, that is the way it was in mid '80s. I don't think the same(EPA concerns) was true in the '50s. However, the same basic problem existed. Release of an untested design results in bad karma.

[@indridcold8433]

I think electric power is a big failure for cars, unless you live in a crowded city.

[@gilbertwashburn7095]

Yeah Jay Leno has one on his Chrysler but I think it's been modernized so it works

[@scootergeorge7089]

AMC also tried the Bendix FI.

[@RareClassicCars]

That’s mentioned in the video

[@MrBrianbusch]

My earliest introduction was on a 1969 Alpha spider, mechanical, worked well by that time.

[@AB-pl1ko]

Yes, the mechanical SPICA system was quite good. It was originally intended to be used on diesel-powered tractors and Alfa-Romeo adapted it for use on their DOHC 4-cyl engines, allowing them to meet then impending US emission standards. SPICA was not used by Alfa Romeo in Italy or any other European market, which instead they continued with carburators. Outside of in the US and Canada, Alfa-Romeo did not use fuel injection on normal production cars until the adoption of Bosch's L-Jetronic system in the early 1980's

[@MrBrianbusch]

​@@AB-pl1koOne thing difficult to explain to anyone born only within the last 30-40 yrs is the almost affixiating fumes of entering the garage portion of a affixed home in the morning with two vehicles, both with 4 barrel carbs.

[@siegessaule]

These cars were 30 years ahead of their time, imagine having a car with multipoint EFI in 1958! It's too bad GM or Chrysler never tried to develop these systems further, they really could have used some sort of fuel injection during the 1970s. I get the feeling that it was the 1950s electronics holding them back, European marques seemed to have many fuel injected cars from the late 1960s onward.

[@BrianHornak]

WOW..didn't know fuel injection was around back then