Banned Strategies in Competitive Pokémon (Gens 1 - 5)

[@BigYellowSilly]

Also something I was originally gonna include in the vid but didn't was announce that I have a Patreon now! Link is in the description, I didn't really want to use Patreon tbh, I like the way Ko-Fi is set up more but it deals with things through Paypal which I almost never use so I went with Patreon. Nothing substantial will EVER be locked behind it, it only exists as like a tip jar if you wanna help me out, but remember watching my vids and sharing them is already amazing support so whatever you do I really appreciate it (:

[@drsherifff]

POGGERS

[@Neogears1312]

Have you considered having a discord per chance?

[@drsherifff]

@@Neogears1312 psst im currently setting one up for him but dont tell him shhht!

[@RiahGreen]

Big Yellow will now get my money. Very cool! Edit: Holy shit I'm your first patron!

[@BigYellowSilly]

@@RiahGreen I just saw that this morning ty very much appreciated!

[@eredostheuseless4475]

"That's like biting into a sandwich and saying wtf there's bread in here" God tier quote

[@w0ody16]

Excuse meee I'm doing a KETO diet whyyyyy are there carbssss in my foooood!??

[@jordand8371]

I'm gonna remember that quote for a long while

[@MetaCharizardToken]

It had me replaying the seconds LMAOO

[@Moss_Dude]

I literally gave my mom context about pokemon generations being buggy just to tell her that

[@ButterStick64]

18:23 I know Jack shit about Pokémon. Watched just for the quote. Wasn’t disappointed.

[@nathanielyingling3456]

You’re correct. In Gen V, Sol Badguy can not choke out Breloom.

[@tysondennis1016]

Was he in Gen 5?

[@toxagen1144]

​@tysondennis1016 before BW2, you had to transfer Sol Badguy from a previous generation. But they added Sol Badguy in BW2, but only in Black City... Also yes, Breloom was in gen 5 because this was before they started cutting pokemon from the game.

[@randommaster06]

Banning Moody or Evasion boosts happened for the same reason a shot clock was added to many sports. (such as the NBA) Teams were literally sitting on the ball for 40+ minutes to win games. Watching nothing happen for half an hour seems funny until you are on the losing side watching your time get wasted.

[@olivergro7105]

What you mean by sitting on the ball? Literal sitting or playing around the time with useless passes?

[@randommaster06]

@@olivergro7105 Pro players literally sitting on the ball. There were no rules against this because nobody thought it would ever happen. Rules were added when it did. You would have scores of 7 - 6 for the whole game.

[@YOSSARIAN313]

@@randommaster06 not literally they'd just pass it constantly

[@ChillavaKirby]

I'm not sure I understand this comparison. These two things were banned because they were competitively unhealthy due to relying purely on randomness to be effective.

[@randommaster06]

@@ChillavaKirby The shot clock and evasion ban are comparable in that allowing them creates situations that participants/viewers find unfun and can threaten the long-term health of the game. You solve the problem by eliminating it as an option for players. Forcing basketball players to take shots and banning evasion boosts, respectively. The evasion issue really started to matter in the original DP meta. (TLDR: the DP meta revolved around one interaction with evasion) Garchomp was everywhere and so was Tyranitar. Because there were no other good weather setters, so sand was almost always up. A +2 Atk Garchomp will OHKO anything meta-relevant. It's holding Yache Berry, so the only thing in the entirety of OU that is guaranteed to out-speed and OHKO it is Adamant, Choice Band Weavile with Ice Punch. Sand Veil means Garchomp has a 20% chance to avoid attacks in a sandstorm. If you have to play ten swiss rounds before cutting to top 8, if you are using that Weavile, you are estimated to lose two games to RNG because Sand Veil caused Ice Punch to miss and you got swept. Going plus/minus one miss (amusing you win all your other matches) is the difference between not making Top 8 mad being guaranteed a spot. An entire mera of "Does Ice Punch Miss?" isn't fun, and Smogon banished Garchomp to Ubers until the DPP meta introduced more pokemon the could deal with Garchomp.

[@floofzykitty5072]

I think it's less about "we want you to play the game this way" when it comes to these rules and more about "this would be the only viable way to play if it was legal". For example, dig/fly in Gen 1 would completely shape the meta game to that strategy. People wouldn't be able to just stop using t-wave/paralysis because then the pokemon that are susceptible to paralysis would just become the best because nothing would be able to stop them

[@BigYellowSilly]

This is what I think a lot of people miss, I think they jump to the conclusion that Smogon just shapes metas exactly to the liking of a small group of people and we go along with it, when in reality that's not the case at all

[@eumorpha876]

@@BigYellowSilly personally i think some of Smogon's councils can be too heavy on the banhammer at times, but for the most part i agree with that statement

[@justabluedream]

Bro, no one ever used dig or fly in rby back in the days of internet gen 1 netbattle or Pokémon online. Ever. They were never banned back In the days preceding my time during 2005-2012. They weren’t banned and no one used them.

[@somedragonbastard]

Yeah, if it's sucking the joy out of the game or pushing out other strategies, it's no good. Fuck Primal Groudon. All my homies hate Primal Groudon. Idk if it was actually competitively that bad but I didn't like it

[@Wolf99555]

@@justabluedream did people know about the bug back then, and did the simulators you used accurately recreate the bug? because if not then those anecdotes really do not matter. there's a very real chance that if they were aware of the bug at the time they didn't recreate it in order to not ban the move, but later on decided to more faithfully recreate the game instead of modifying it for 2 moves that you yourself are saying were never used.

[@TheWrathAbove]

This is actually a pretty interesting subject that you don't see covered all to often, especially not in this style. So it's nice to see here.

[@breadpower]

the afrobull pfp

[@TheWrathAbove]

@@breadpower Yes I am indeed aware

[@LunaGropeAnnelotte]

A fellow man of culture

[@superiormeh]

I'm hope these likes are about the post not the pic The pic: keep dreamin'

[@Yuutus1]

Great comic

[@gregorygejoff1628]

Gen 4 had chattot banned actually. All because of it being able to record literally any sound you want for it to play.

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

Yeah apparently you could make it cuss (which is really dumb because it’s BP was based on how loud you yelled at your DS so everyone I knew was making Elder Scrolls FUS RO DAH jokes)

[@Saixjacket]

Best one is that one dude who got his chatot to say SHAWTYS LIKE A MELODY and you could tell it was the song easily Xd

[@NeonWasInUse]

@@christopherfleetwood5252 straight up screaming "FUS RO DAH" into a Mic to make a funny looking bird on my scream yell the same thing every time it attacked is absolutely something I'd do lol.

[@punga6102]

But that was only VGC Smogon did not ban chatot as you can't record anything in Showdown, nor have they ever made an irl tournament iirc

[@suezuccati304]

@@punga6102 playing competitive singles on console is like torture

[@NeoGraena]

Yknow what my favorite period is in Gen 5? the Dugtrio ban saga. basically the history of how Gen 5 OU was simply unable to handle Arena Trap to the point of banning Dugtrio, however people decided to just use Diglett (or even Trapinch lol) and only then Arena Trap itself was banned.

[@alejandrop.s.3942]

Showdown is a toxic, inconsistent community. Once a guy a reported me for using a whole Explosion to enable a Gyarados sweep. Obviously, his request was dismissed, but then he opened a thread in Smogon crying about how Explosion goes against "strategy, and what it is a good match since it's impredictable" (he was a stall user) and I was astonished when I saw many people agreeing with him and asking for banning more than 2 mon with Explosion in the team.

[@NeoGraena]

@@alejandrop.s.3942 Showdown's toxicity is mostly just either tryhards or children. Most of the time it's chill

[@mrschrubelhupfyay6397]

@@alejandrop.s.3942 tbf that idea is valid, explosion is pretty busted and restricting it to 2 mons wouldnt take away the merits of it while getting rid of braindead strats like 5 explosions+snorlax

[@exi_dudi2037]

@@mrschrubelhupfyay6397 the thing is, it doesn't matter if a strategy is brain-dead as long as it's competitive and not broken. Using 5 explosion mons is a very bad strategy ( even in gen 2 you'd only want like 4 on Very offensive teams) and it's relatively easy to play around. Considering how this was in gen 5 you can reasonably just tank explosions from certain mons and you have preview and can see what min they're trying to keep. It's really easy to play around and theres no reason to ban it.

[@mrschrubelhupfyay6397]

@@exi_dudi2037 it being gen 5 is a major detail due to the explosion nerf, Id expected it to be gen 3 as gen 3 is the strongest gen for explosion, if it is gen 5 then that suggestion is absolutely invalid

[@OG_DouG]

It's pretty fun to see that there's still a meta in older gens. The spore ban in Gen 5 OU is pretty recent, and there's still a lot of people playing Gen 1 OU.

[@BigYellowSilly]

Old gens having their meta's changing even today is so cool to me honestly

[@chazaqiel2319]

Honestly, it's not that different from people keeping older fighting games alive through sheer passion and modding. It goes to show how much love goes into a series, when players have their favourite episode and focus on it instead of just following the mainstream interest

[@justincarroll1836]

@@BigYellowSilly I mean a meta in a game with enough characters is virtually impossible to truly solve. The idea is that there are X best strategies with a similarly small number of counters and weaknesses like a rock paper scissors effect. With too many options, you can quite literally change the meta but doing the same things often enough.

[@rjante2236]

Gen 1 OU is really fun

[@SlasherLink119]

That sleep ban was probably one of the best things that could've happened for Gen. V, cause those Sleep inducing moves were essentially more accurate legal OHKO moves, as the sleep counter would reset on switchout pre-Gen VI, so you'd just give one pokemon up to the Sleep move and that pokemon is just Sleep Clause fodder for the remainder...

[@shellnut8224]

Adding onto why sleep is not banned in Gen 1 whereas it is banned in Gen 5... Because everything in Gen 1 is so bulky by virtue of the maxed-out defensive stats and the dominance of 2 blanket checks to virtually the entire metagame, Snorlax and Chansey, it's not unreasonable to try burning sleep turns on a Cloyster using Clamp, a Resting Snorlax, or against resisted attacks like Psychic, since if you get it then your up a full Pokemon and if you don't get it your not falling too far behind. So while sleep is very strong in Gen 1, there are ways to play around it. By contrast, in gen 5, the metagame is so volatile that losing even 1 turn can be the game right then and there, making it way too dangerous to try burning sleep turns in gen 5, let alone with the stupid sleep mechanics. However, by not bringing out a sleeping Pokemon, you are playing 5v6 the rest game with no realistic chance of burning turns and waking up, which is just as bad as giving the opponent a free turn. There is no reasonable way to play around it without relying entirely on getting lucky with sleep talk rolls which can just as easily make sleep a non-factor as they can give the opponent a free turn to win the game. I'm enjoying the variety content, it's very interesting and I look forward to seeing more of it in the future.

[@shadowtitanx3962]

Yeah... Gen 5 Sleep is way more devastating than Gen 1 Freeze and Sleep by a long shot. Not to mention, Gen 5 is very fast pace, where everything goes bang bang. Especially Choice Specs Latios, the king of Gen 5 OU. Also, the team building in Gen 5 is very difficult due to so many teams you have to be accounted for. Adding Sleep absorber on top of the constraint of Gen 5 OU teams isn't solving the issue due to the rng of Sleep and Sleep Talk (Unless if you use Poison Heal Gliscor).

[@cashnelson2306]

you're*

[@usernametaken017]

@@cashnelson2306 mother

[@mxri2019]

I’m pretty sure in gen 5 the sleep counter is rest to 0 if you switch out.. so if you burn a turn of sleep then switch out and switch back in. It’ll stay at 0, I’m pretty sure that specifically coupled with the meta game is why sleep is so broken in gen 5 Though I could be wrong been a while since I looked it up

[@priestesslucy]

Insomnia and early bird and Clerics are also a thing. But yeah, feels pretty centralizing

[@wispyone3702]

I remember in Gen 7, Eevium Z was this really funny thing where you could just get 2x stats in everything and then Baton Pass and Psych Up and it was the whole strategy. It eventually got banned but I used it a lot with usually bad mons like Wishiwashi and Ribombee, partially because I was very frustrated with the Metagame for other reasons.

[@KeitaroHirochi]

Wait Extreme Evopass was actually a thing?

[@wispyone3702]

@@KeitaroHirochi It was banned eventually (Both to preserve pass and because even with base Eevee it was broken) in doubles but I don't think it was in VGC17.

[@hope27272]

@@wispyone3702 it was an ok team in VGC17 but it was way weaker in that format compared to smogon doubles

[@wispyone3702]

@@hope27272 That makes sense. I don't remember trying it in Smogon Doubles but I think I did. Maybe I tried it and that's how I learned it was banned in that format IDK. I wasn't usually playing in VGC but I remember I wanted to for S&M for some reason.

[@hostiusasinhostilityhostil7853]

I remember running a Psych Up Golduck with Aqua Jet just to counter that strategy - if I saw Eevee on the team preview, I'd send in Golduck first, assuming they'd send in Eevee, then Psych Up to get its boosts and kill it. Didn't get to use it much, but it was brutal when I got to.

[@afineegg1040]

Rewatching this video again and seeing the non-yassified Big Yellow... Damn. They've come a long way.

[@kiz5562]

what happened to him?

[@BENJA021100]

yep he has changed a lot

[@DSaC_]

You really just threw "Mr. Mime is banned from Gen 3 OU" out of freakin' nowhere and I almost choked on my drink. I didn't know this was the case at ALL.

[@BigYellowSilly]

The weird thing is that he's still allowed in UU and it's completely fine, so he's banned to Ubers but at the same time just vibing in UU

[@DSaC_]

@@BigYellowSilly Weird, but Gen 3 has a lot of weird rules. Like how UU has the NFE ban.

[@japanpanda2179]

@@DSaC_ Could they have done that because Chansey? Though they could've just ... banned Chansey

[@DSaC_]

@@japanpanda2179 Nah, it was because UU players played the tier to get away from OU, and they didn't want the tier to be overrun with preevolutions of the OU mons they were trying to get away from.

[@agentblackbird9435]

@@DSaC_ Scyther: Ima pretend I didn’t hear that

[@JustInCaseD]

Surprised that the biggest restriction of gen 5 wasn’t mentioned: the weather setter + speed boosting ability ban (Drizzle + Swift Swim, Sand Stream + Sand Rush, etc)

[@gratedshtick]

Don't forget Chlorodrought

[@JAnne_Bonne]

I thought it was just those two because of Water STAB + Water move boost from rain + Swift Swim on already fast and strong Pokemon = DANGER and Excadrill and Stoutland out speed near everything in Sand. That is to say, I thought they didn’t ban Chlorophyll + Drought because it’s balanced by only Grass types having Chlorophyll (and they have a disadvantage against Fire which is boosted by sun) and said Pokemon having narrower move pools than Pokemon with Swift Swim and Sand Rush and the ones that don’t (like Tangrowth and Exeggcutor) being to slow to take advantage of it.

[@JustInCaseD]

@@JAnne_Bonne It was definitely worse than the other 2 weather combos, but despite that it was still a potent combo. Growth Chlorophyll Venusaur in particular was an absolute near unwallable monster - and arguably easily as dangerous stall machine between sub+leech seed, or just using Synthesis to get back 66.6% of its health every time due to sun. It also had access to Sleep Powder, which as everyone who played gen 5 knows: reliable sleep is an absolute gamebreaker due to gen 5’s brutal sleep reset mechanics upon switching. It was incredibly hard to stop once it go going, and was incredibly difficult to kill with the right support. Honorable mention also goes to Sawsbuck, who was a genuine Sword Dance sweeping threat under sun as well and often the 2nd sweeper either competing with - or teaming with Venu on chloro-spam teams. The 2 were the main abusers and culprits for pushing the style over the edge. Once the other 2 weather combos were locked up, chloro-sun started taking over the tier and not too long after closed a full ban on weather + speed boosting abilities. However, it is worth noting that there is ongoing discussion in recent times within the Smogon gen 5 community of potentially unbanning choloro-drought due to Sun teams near complete dropout from the meta after the banning of Arena Trap. Dugtrio (and Diglet for the short time that duggy was banned but Trap was still legal) was crucial to sun teams for its ability to remove common roadblocks like ttar, Heatran, or a weakened Politoed to help win the weather war, since Ninetales is a bad but vital component to sun thats needed to function. And now that it’s gone sun can’t stand up to the rest of the meta because said roadblocks are too common and now are too difficult to remove while maintaining the needed extra support sun teams require.

[@daringiconoclast6547]

Woah, when I stopped playing that it was just the rain variant that was banned

[@EnergyBurst2]

@@JustInCaseD how long ago did they ban the weather+spd abilities combo?

[@goldenhydreigon4727]

Glalie 🤝 Cacturne 🤝 Octillery Being decent casual run Pokémon who are bad in Competitive yet got banned due to an Ability.

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

And would make pretty good shit starter trio for a harder game mod actually…

[@eumorpha876]

I think Cacturne should get an evolution

[@artandem9637]

@@christopherfleetwood5252 wait that's true...

[@henriquepacheco7473]

@@christopherfleetwood5252 if you're making a mod, you can also take those three and give them mod fakemon evolutions, since they're all single-stage evos. Kind of would shit on the "harder" part, tho, but eh.

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

@@henriquepacheco7473 😊 I’m flattered that you think I competent enough to make a whole mod, but believe me, I’m not. lol That said thank you for your input, that would be a cool idea. 👍

[@TheBioshocksnake]

Moody should just give you a +2 stat up / -1 stat down as it switches in. Not as abusable and opens up more strategies.

[@BigYellowSilly]

My idea was always to make it +1/-1 instead of +2/-1, but your idea would be a much better solution tbh

[@scooter9537]

@@formerlysammichu1 It doesn't give accuracy and evasion in the game now and it's still comically broken lmao. I've played the game competitively since like 2012, I laddered for the moody suspect test in gen 8, and it was the single most degenerate meta I've seen. I'd argue it is almost the exact same thing as baton pass chains before they were banned. If you have the counters to it, the strategy falls apart, if you don't there is very little counter play and you lose on turn 2. It's not fun to play with or against. It should not be in the game. The only way to balance moody imo is to make it on hit instead of per turn. That would stop like protect, disable glare glalies and shit. All the mons that get the ability as of now are frail so I think this would be okay, but it's not future proof tbh. It's just an insanely broken ability it's gonna be hard to balance.

[@LunaroseClaire]

@@BigYellowSilly perhaps it could give +1 to you and your opponent? Not even sure if that's possible to make work.

[@dakota6885]

@@scooter9537 your idea sucks even more. multi-hit moves exist

[@yungmuney5903]

I rather just have moody be an rng Download, like boost a random stat when switched in, that sounds fun.

[@serPomiz]

the thing with many, many, MANY moves combination are set up for WAY more complex games, that just doesn't mix well with the "kiddy" set up of the mainline game themselves, and are definetivelly anti-competitive; heck, I swear I've seen moody in an older jrpg for a gambler class, but it made more sense there

[@DeisFortuna]

TBF the gambler's ability *also* (likely) wasn't in a multiplayer environment where people are being competitive and thus, Moody-esque RNG buffs getting to a point where they're unstoppable isn't really infringing on someone else's enjoyment of the game, since last time I checked, the AI used in JRPGs for enemies doesn't have feelings.

[@StarkMaximum]

A lot of people complain "why does Smogon ban so much stuff, they're no fun, any time I come up with something cool it's already banned", and my first argument is "if it's banned you're definitely not the first person to come up with it", but more seriously, putting restrictions on a format results in having to figure things out as you go; that fabled "creativity" people idolize. If you just want everything unbanned, look at Anything Goes; it's a mess and you're either playing exactly what the best shit is, or you're playing something that counters it. Removing options when done right results in looking at Pokemon in new ways, which is why some people prefer to play only the lower tiers; what do you use when the five best options are banned? What's the next best thing?

[@letsmakeit110]

random freeze good. random miss bad. whatever man. smogon is just a small group of inbred players who want to make sure the strategies they have experience using remain dominant. Else they would have axed stealth rock forever ago. Been willing to devote a single move slot to haze etc... Like actually you can shut down their entire team of six baton passers with 1/24th of your team and they'd rather just ban it.

[@tangerinepaint3643]

@@letsmakeit110 wait you can?

[@letsmakeit110]

@@tangerinepaint3643 yeah. devote a single moveslot to haze or something else with 'removes all stats changes'.

[@tangerinepaint3643]

@@letsmakeit110 question: does clear body work against haze?

[@letsmakeit110]

@@tangerinepaint3643 honestly don't know

[@alannguyen6903]

The talk about baton pass was cool because thats what they basically did for teleport. They gave it -6 priority so the opponent will always acts and you can switch out.

[@KopperNeoman]

That's Teleport's whole gimmick, and it's pretty cool. Switch out AFTER taking a hit to protect the switch in.

[@mortomultiverse8778]

Ah yes, the DlC era. You had the hole slow family teleporting with regenerator and throwing future sights left to right. What a time.

[@ieatatsonic]

One of my favorite cases was the god Klefki set that got Foul Play + Swagger banned. You could use swagger and thunder wave for paralysis and confusion, given +1 speed due to prankster, then Foul Play your opponent to death despite Klefki's low attack.

[@MD-vs9ff]

Prankster is not +1 Speed, it's +1 priority, which is far better.

[@thehumanstunlock7588]

isn't that literally the point of a prankster ability though?

[@LunaroseClaire]

@@thehumanstunlock7588 speed is the matter of who goes first, priority takes priority. A Pokemon with +1 Speed might not outspeed really fast Pokemon, but a Pokemon with priority vs a Pokemon without priority will always go first.

[@thehumanstunlock7588]

@@LunaroseClaire yeah, i know, and prankster gives status priority. i understand simple pokemon mechanics.

[@E4439Qv5]

Liepard had Swagplay as an option too. Never abused it myself, but I thought it was hella neat.

[@MAYOFORCE]

I was really hoping you'd mention Slowbro with slack off, recycle and the leppa berry but maybe if you do a gen 6-8 video it'll be up then

[@MAYOFORCE]

@shitcanget AKA yikes! When I learned of funbro I was immediately captivated with how fucking bullshit it is

[@azurefoxbh9280]

in gen 8 fun bro doesnt exist like it cant learn the right moves infact nothing can i know becasue i tried to play it

[@segafreak2000]

@@azurefoxbh9280 I mean, can't you just transfer a Funbro over from a previous generation?

[@azurefoxbh9280]

@@segafreak2000 not every move is in gen 8

[@azurefoxbh9280]

@@segafreak2000 and the learnsets arent the same either

[@KiranasOfRizon]

I remember baton pass teams in the days of gen 3 on netbattle. My counter was putting Haze on my Gengar. Nobody expects any pokemon to carry Haze.

[@le_nub6711]

a good bp team shouldn't have any problems dealing with that. all you need to do is trap it and trick it a choice band

[@kanayadeliz2584]

@@le_nub6711 yeah, but 80% of people playing a bp team are doing it to avoid needing skill. But the other 20%... They are to be feared.

[@Eroil]

Interestingly even after the sleep ban breloom remained highly viable in gen 5, even without its strongest move

[@BigYellowSilly]

One of my favourite things about Breloom is all the different ways it's been viable, it adapted to not having sleep in Gen 5, and even before that it ran completely different sets in every gen it's been OU

[@mortomultiverse8778]

Technician is great man

[@EnergyBurst2]

@@BigYellowSilly I remember a time when sub sporeless focus punch breloom was a thing people would run, what crazy times those were.

[@Forged4War206]

Banning Spore was like one step forward one step back for Breloom. It was already a great Pokemon but Spore was so good it had no reason not to run it on virtually every set, which meant that many of its other good move options were thrown to the sidelines. Now that it cant run Spore, it just runs those moves instead, which arguably make Breloom just as threatening and possibly even less predictable.

[@SilverScarletSpider]

I kinda like how Gen 7 made baton pass strategies really strong and the strategies were discovered/went back in time and were subsequently banned.

[@sarasaland4709]

0:18 I love how these are a perfect representation of each OU meta.

[@scylloid]

i don't know why, but you describing cacnea as the "baba form" of cacturne has absolutely made my day for several days in a row. i keep saying "baba form" to myself and giggling

[@arttulyhykainen3193]

That explanation about overall luck and risk aspects vs. single lucky turn is one of the best explanations i have ever heard.

[@ralcogaming7674]

I remember they were talking about banning bullet punch lucario a few years ago, I felt semi responsible as I'd been running one since I realized bullet punch could be egg moved to lucario. My setup is simple comfey can leech seed all pokemon on the field including your own meaning your healer can gain passive healing from 3 sources, then floral healing gains priority from its ability lucario can use power up punch to boost attack repetitively until maxed, from there you simply sweep with bullet punch, I one hit ko'ed a mega rayquaza this way it was bonkers. For anything resistant to steel we have aura sphere. Lucario has been my sweeper for awhile only as of sun was I able to really make my team shine,

[@henriquepacheco7473]

if you're boosting attack, why use aura sphere? Drain punch hits the same targets, and with all the attack boosts, most likely does more damage, in addition to healing you. Also, if your plan is to just boost attack, why not SD? it gets up there way faster. EDIT: Also, unless you're talking about mega lucario, use Extreme Speed. It hits neutral targets and targets that resist both steel and normal harder, and losing a stronger hit on fairies won't matter if you're boosting that much. Unless you have rock types you're worrying about? EDIT 2: Oh, yeah, ghosts. But hey, you can run both *and* drain punch! ...you'd need to drop whatever is your fourth move, though, so eh.

[@ralcogaming7674]

@@henriquepacheco7473 swords dance but I considered dropping it since I use power up punch.

[@BloodThirstyAvengers]

Something that was banned in Gen 4, Chatot. More specifically, its signature move Chatter. Not only could you record curse words, you could also just screech into the mic as the moves power was higher the louder the recorded noise was.

[@isenokami7810]

Could record curse words: unfortunate, but Game Freak isn’t responsible for what players do. Move actually becomes more powerful from volume, encouraging players to record earrape: oh, you were just asking for that one.

[@vidyabatter]

"FUUUUUUCK" power go

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

Was there a maximum?

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

@@isenokami7810me on my way to record a rock concert:

[@BloodThirstyAvengers]

Just looked it up on Bulbapedia, apparently the volume only affects the chance of the move confusing? To a maximum of 31% in Gen 4, or 10% in Gen 5.

[@ElecWaff]

“pokemon is a goo goo ga ga baby game first and a competitive game like, fourth or fifth” yea, that’s basically it

[@mr.mudkip9539]

The timing of this video was rather unfortunate as this was only a few days before BW OU banned the move Assist, since strategies revolving around the move were almost impossible to deal with. The lower tiers in gen 5 might soon follow suit, as they have even less counterplay for such strategies.

[@RebelTrooperHoth]

so weird seeing pre-yassified big yellow

[@myboy_]

10:25 I wouldn't even say this is an example of luck. This is two players coming in with hidden loadouts. Your strategy being countered doesn't mean luck determined outcome like with a critical hit or random paralysis.

[@syrelian]

Its luck in the sense that it was an unsure thing, same way you might say you got unlucky if you misjudged a roughly 50/50 choice, its not luck in the sense that RNG and the fates were involved(other then the part where your Swampert did/didn't instantly die to Crit HPGrass)

[@zememerr2329]

The other week I played some Gen 5 OU and added a Breloom onto my team. After a few rounds of battles I realized I didn’t give it Spore for some reason Then I realized why the Smogon template sets all mysteriously didn’t have Spore

[@KuonilerariLoufanwald]

Smogon is the no fun allowed crowd. Spore Sub FPunch Breloom will always be the top

[@zememerr2329]

@@KuonilerariLoufanwald I mean, this is unbanned in every other OU so I’m not too upset about it. I think the main issue is why Gamefreak implemented sleep in Gen 5 like they did

[@DKQuagmire]

Breloom was on my main team in generation 6 as either a focus sash lead or choice scarf lead. it had Spore, but i relied on attacks that worked with Technician, like Bullet Seed and Power up Punch. i think the last move was Rock Tomb, for slowing opponents down, to hit first.

[@ClintonKE]

@@KuonilerariLoufanwald Someone already said it so I'll just quote em: A lot of people complain "why does Smogon ban so much stuff, they're no fun, any time I come up with something cool it's already banned", and my first argument is "if it's banned you're definitely not the first person to come up with it", but more seriously, putting restrictions on a format results in having to figure things out as you go; that fabled "creativity" people idolize. If you just want everything unbanned, look at Anything Goes; it's a mess and you're either playing exactly what the best shit is, or you're playing something that counters it. Removing options when done right results in looking at Pokemon in new ways, which is why some people prefer to play only the lower tiers; what do you use when the five best options are banned? What's the next best thing?

[@CantusTropus]

@@KuonilerariLoufanwald In any other generation I would agree. In Gen 5, with the bullshit sleep turn resetting mechanic? No way. It's basically a KO at that stage.

[@LucidMakesVideos]

This is one of those topics that I've always found interesting, but never had conveyed to me in an interesting way. Thanks Big Yellow!

[@marcorossi2854]

Great video. The sand veil ban is the best example of how bans should actually work. Btw i'm glad to see other people pushing old gens OU.

[@peng7376]

>starts talking about evasion being uncompetitive >certain furry youtuber begins rapidly approaching your location

[@BigYellowSilly]

everyone g til fury cutter Venusaur and Heavy Slam Wailord pull up

[@givemeyourgarbage7980]

@@BigYellowSilly "no guys, it's okay!! No STAB hydreigon and heavyslam wailord are VERY good and viable sets! Also why won't smogon unban evasion???"

[@autobotstarscream765]

@@givemeyourgarbage7980 "Hydreigon good, Dragapult bad"

[@HomelessBubblegumMan]

Who is the furry

[@lintan3405]

@@HomelessBubblegumMan think its a reference to weedletwineedles, recently Made a tangled feet video but it was after the comment was made

[@brandongordon4019]

As someone who knows nothing about competitive Pokemon, this video was still really entertaining and enjoyable

[@Alex-xk5xt]

really enjoying the pokemon stuff and the more structured style of your newer videos. also your nail polish is sick. keep it up these are great.

[@Kenzamaka]

This is bringing back memories... It was just before Gen 5 released, I was enjoying competitive Pokémon on Smogon. I loved the phys/spec split, and all was good. I was caught unawares, however, by a held item introduced on Gen 5 that made me drop competitive play... Eviolite. I was flabbergasted. I asked myself why I would play when I could get walled out by an undervolved 'Mon. Looking back it wasn't the huge deal I thought it was, I guess.

[@BigYellowSilly]

Evolite is weird for me cause I actually loved the idea of it was excited to see what it'd do for OU but it was pretty much just a Chansey enabler

[@seasidedoe8905]

@@BigYellowSilly On the bright side, it did allow for Porygon2 and Porygon-Z to diverge further in kits, but yeah in general the item kinda pigeonholes more defensive NFE Pokemon.

[@MoonbaseTV]

@@BigYellowSilly can't forget a UU viable gligar and the deviously gimmicky murkrow 😈

[@paulnewton2284]

Really weird idea, what if they introduced a similar item (let's call it Evolium) but for Attack and Sp. Attack? That might help NFE Pokemon break out of that defensive role Eviolite often pigeonholes them into. I think it could be interesting. Evolium would almost certainly get banned from Little Cup, though. Eviolite is basically the only reason defensive strategies work there at all - just look at Gen 4 LC, which is basically just a hyper-offence slugfest. So just being able to slap on an item that totally counteracts it with no drawbacks (in the context of LC) would not be great. I mean, Choice Band/Specs and Life Orb are already immensely popular in spite of their drawbacks, imagine a Mienfoo or something running a Choice Band without being locked into a move. In other formats, the drawback of both Eviolite and the hypothetical Evolium is that you're using an NFE Pokemon in a context where fully evolved Pokemon are the norm, AND it HAS to hold Eviolite/Evolium to be viable in that context (no Leftovers, Choice Scarf, Heavy Duty Boots, etc.).

[@JustButton]

@@BigYellowSilly I was so hype for dusclops back then…. Time flies

[@richardjohnson8991]

It's been about 8 years since I've payed any attention to competitive pokemon but this video was really interesting. I always love hearing about the nuance in competitive play in games. I also used to play a lot of competitive MTG and their bans/unbans were always pretty interesting to work out as well

[@justincarroll1836]

I'm curious what format you've played because the format and the year can be like spinning the wheel of fortune lol

[@richardjohnson8991]

@@justincarroll1836 modern back when birthing pod bans happened about 6 months either side and commander for the past 4 years

[@justincarroll1836]

@@richardjohnson8991 well pod modern was the dark before time for me

[@maneruloquendero]

Glalie is my favorite Pokemon. It was nice and funny that for a short time Glalie was Uber thanks to moody. Just picture a snowball with horns dodging the attacks of mighty Groudon and friends and then destroying them

[@ClexYoshi]

I kinda wish you would have talked about Endless Battle Clause in this video. if you ever do a Pokemon game Garbage video, I want a breakdown on Funbro SO much.

[@yourehereforthatarentyou]

is that like, recycle shenanigans

[@piikae]

@@yourehereforthatarentyou Leppa berry + recycle + block + heal pulse. It forces a stalemate until the player using it gets bored. It's also the only strategy to be banned from AG!

[@junglejuicejuno]

@@yourehereforthatarentyou Its also leftovers Wobbuffet duels

[@krexolsen3692]

You counter funbro with knock off

[@ClexYoshi]

@@krexolsen3692 yes, but that requires the person playing Funbro to lock in a pokemon that would run knock-off in it's kit. keep in mind that block/mean look is often a part of how funbro works, thus locking your opponent out of counterplay. a lot of FUnbro is scouting out a victim to lock in.

[@benepic3101]

That swampert/tyranitar/celebi interaction you mentioned is super interesting, makes me want to look into competitive Pokémon more

[@AliceKazaki]

Sol badguy using wild throw on a breloom definitely enticed me to click on this video, and I was already interested in the topic

[@kangstakangsta]

I'm normally here for the fighting game content, and I had a great time listening in as an outsider. Thanks for the explanations and insight.

[@Pc_98_Fan]

i love how more funnier the banlist gets when a new generation gets introduced, especially in Gen. 8

[@PlaguevonKarma]

I love the way you present your content. It's really cool!

[@grammaticalrouge29]

"I want to play whatever I want" is gamer-lingo for: I want to play the brokest of shits. Then there's the other side of the coin: People like me who likes awful PokéMon, and so we adhere behemently to the Tiers and rules in hopes of making a breakthrough in Untiered with Parasect.

[@cultreader9751]

I haven't played much since 2011, but (during Gen IV), I'd normally base a team around one or two of my favorite 'mons. It let me use those awful mons in OU and still have a chance of winning.

[@grammaticalrouge29]

@@cultreader9751 Which ones are your favorite?

[@devincetee5335]

I like to have fun with Pokemon, so...

[@MutedAndReported3032]

This guy kinda looks like the kid who sang Story of Undertale while his house literally caught on fire

[@TheDonaldduck911]

Bro, the energy of this channel is perfect for this type of content

[@tonyg_fgc8152]

I love Pokemon analysis! You are pretty good at it!

[@16alfonsolujan17]

aw man, the part were he compares a sandwich with generation one being broken made me laugh so bad. I love this guy, thank you youtube for showing me this channel.

[@lman0089]

It’s so bizarre watching your more recent videos and then coming back and seeing how you looked in your older videos

[@theboi5584]

This was a great topic to make a video on, especially since Competitive Pokemon is so deep.

[@newbornkilik]

A genuinely interesting, lesser discussed topic, well done!

[@myboy_]

Great video man!! Never knew much of anything on competitive pokemon, but it's really interesting listening to you talk about it. Just love competitive game design! Hope to catch you on twitch some time soon :)

[@Neogears1312]

18:52 I’m stealing that. That is such a good line.

[@flavoredchin]

Yknow, I just realized that making fly, dive, and dig bypass substitutes and/or barriers would make them pretty interesting.

[@matthewkuscienko4616]

There is a move that does this in the form of Giratina's Shadow Force attack, along with it's weaker version, phantom force. But because they are two-turn moves, they aren't used by anyone for the reasons mentioned in this video (namely dealing with the fact that the opponent has the option to simply switch to something different to beat your Pokemon while you take those turns). There's also the fact that, while it wasn't touched on in this video, two-turn moves are not as effective, since you can either use an attack and a set up move or just attack the opponent twice to get overall better results

[@grunkleg.2934]

Certain two-turn moves can actually work pretty well in tandem with Power Herb (Geomancy and Meteor Beam mainly, though I think I've run into a few Power Herb Fly and Bounce users), as well as Sky Drop. I feel like you could buff these moves by maybe trapping the opponent on the turn the move comes out

[@MG-mq3zf]

@@grunkleg.2934 If you want to get past substitutes, you could also just use sound moves. Game freak should really make more of those (and have them be different types other than normal or electric).

[@egon3705]

@@MG-mq3zf sparkling aria exists just as much as overdrive

[@CJdoesntlikehandles]

@@egon3705 technically slightly more considering its on 2 mons rather than 2 forms of 1 mon

[@adrianh2048]

Great video, great topic! Would love to see you cover more pokemon topics in this style, subscribed!

[@IceAokiji303]

"When something being broken in Generation 1 it's like biting into a fucking sandwich and going whoa what the fuck there's bread in here" is a great line, I'm gonna have to steal that. What for? Not sure yet. But I'll definitely find a use.

[@SquidSystem]

Something I think is depressing about Moody being banned is that there actually some cool, niche ideas you could only achieve with an ability like it, but because of the way it works, you just can't do it. Something I've been experimenting with is Moody Trick Room Eject Pack. There's only one candidate and it technically doesn't exist because Smeargle still isn't in SwSh, but if it could exist in a meta that isn't anything goes, I genuinely think it would make Trick Room go from a poor singles strategy to an actually viable one

[@meathir4921]

My guy is becoming Core A Gaming with the background OST

[@michaelgum97]

Another strategy that I remember getting banned was the endless battles, trapping your opponent, boosting up your stats with Acupressure (seriously, why haven’t they banned it yet?), keeping them alive with Heal Pulse, recovering PP with a Leppa Berry and then using Recycle to get it again. This resulted in battles lasting hundreds of turns while the opponent desperately struggled.

[@syrelian]

Acupressure isn't banned because while it has all the hallmarks of Luck Move, it has ALL of them, which ironically renders it pretty much worthless, in contrast to Moody, it takes your action, its random, and the mons that have it all kinda stink, it gives nothing special, and most of the ways to abuse it are related to existing bans

[@devincetee5335]

actually, replace acupressure with recover or something.

[@spinosaurusaegypticus8341]

acupressure isnt banned because it sucks and you cant really auto win with it unlike the other luckbased abilities

[@cir0plus]

I like that they show the opponents team before hand, so you can scout out the strat they plan on using. Most the time you can predict it, but still doesn't make the matchup fun I guess.

[@hiphops8082]

i never understood why acupressure isn't banned by the evasion clause. it has a chance to boost evasion by 2 stages, and if you get that boost it can just be the end of the game. it's just extremely inconsistent

[@DKQuagmire]

acupressure isn't banned in battle facilities. back when i tried to get really high win streaks, i remember seeing people use Drapion for acupressure. but they could set up for free, because the lead Durant with truant had the opponent under entrainment, and the a.i never switches out from truant entrainment.

[@emmetstanevich2121]

Assuming it wasn't simply forgotten about, it might have been because it combines the limiting factors of double team and moody. Double team always raises evasion, but it takes a turn to use. Moody activates each turn without needing to use a specific move, but you don't choose what gets raised. Acupressure takes an entire turn to use, and you don't get to choose which stat gets boosted.

[@merouln700]

If you are clicking Acupressure, you are clicking Acupressure. You are not clicking Substitute/Barrier/Rest and getting the Acupressure bonus on top of that. Also the odds of getting evasion early are really low. Moody was banned because you could force stall to eventually get what you need. It's much harder to force stall with Acupressure and also the opponent can see it happen and setup by themselves. You pretty much need an inherently tanky mon to even attempt something like this and the best you've got are... Drapion, Tentacruel and Toedscruel.

[@lunarpuppet2227]

some interesting strats here but you forgot the playground OU ban where i cant just grab their gameboy from their hands anymore

[@Shadrake]

This is great XD I love the new format and content, keep it up!

[@victorhaydes9065]

Yea Moody was some of the most hilariously broken shit I have EVER seen.

[@ismaeldeleija8165]

dude thank you so much for this very informative video!

[@tysondennis1016]

Moody is named that because that’s how it leaves someone who lost to a Moody Pokémon feeling.

[@gjhartist3685]

Yooo, love the nail polish bro! :) Also would like to see more competitive pokemon vids!

[@jamiemccreath3959]

I legit clicked on this video because I thought it was called "Based Strategies in Competitive Pokemon"

[@E4439Qv5]

It's that too.

[@sagacious03]

Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@ChaosRUsEnt]

Nice vid. AG is a funny tier to play but hella messy... So glad smogon exist

[@DemonTwink69]

Third video I’ve watched of yours in a row! Love this channel already, new fan!

[@Izandaia]

"It's like bitin' into a fuckin' sandwich and goin' 'Whoa what the fuck there's bread in here!'" Goddamn hilarious. You really have a way with words sometimes.

[@tezcanaslan2877]

THIS IS THE SECOND TYPE OF CONTENT I SUBSCRIBE FOR

[@Slayerthecrow]

Even Arceus is scared of the one who tought this game needed evasion moves, I can get "protect" but wasting moves trying to hit a Chansey just to make like less than a quarter of damage is just plain sadism.

[@grihaspoormachine]

Use swift lol

[@Abigail92749]

@@grihaspoormachine The problem is, Swift is a special attack. Chansey tanks special attacks with no issue. Especially 60 power neutrally effective special moves. So yeah, it’s not gonna be doing much of anything, nothing a Soft-Boiled couldn’t fix.

[@athath2010]

@@Abigail92749 It's physical before Gen 4.

[@Abigail92749]

@@athath2010 Ah, good to know! Would still be a pain to take out a Chansey with Soft-boiled using Swift, but more doable if it’s physical.

[@MegaPokefan97]

Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace, Faint Attack, Stomp, Dragon Rush, Smart Strike, Toxic on Poison types, Haze, No Guard, Keen Eye, and the definition of "+1 evasion" has been getting progressively smaller each Gen: Are we jokes to you?

[@josejeovaze4802]

Great vid. Subscribed just because of it, to give support for the interesting content. Good job, bro.

[@MikeMcKillen]

Duuuuuuude bonus points for the Sum 41 t-shirt 🤘🏻❤️

[@Ledonail]

endings of your videos are always epic man good job

[@RiahGreen]

Thanks for showing me how to cheese the DP remakes next month :)

[@entothechesnautknight1762]

Interesting video, dude. Nice to finally see a video properly going over competitive Pokemon's more nitty gritty details. One very interesting detail you missed is that while evasion boosting moves and abilities are banned, evasion boosting items are not. Mainly this just means Lax insense, which boosts evasion by a measly 10%, but I do find it interesting how the Insense never became a problem like sand veil did since it was only a 10% boost. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but if I had to guess, it's because it's comperable to ice beam and thunderbolt, even if it is more powerful, and you have to give up your one and only item, over using a consistent item like a lum berry or a sash to use it, instead of giving up one of four moves. Still, interesting how evasion is only mostly banned instead of entirely banned, and has y stopped people on Showdown from calling me a hacker when that 1/10 rolls up.

[@BigYellowSilly]

This is a very good point, I would imagine the reason behind items like that not being banned is that using an item like Brightpowder means that you're giving up an item that would just make your Pokemon better. A 10% chance is still a chance, but you give up a lot for it.

[@DyxoXinoro]

Its funny you mention sandveil. While I have some issues with how Smogon runs things, as an average Sandstorm enjoyer myself I always felt like layering free evasion on top of free damage felt a bit cheap, so even if I was memeing I wouldn't use it. Though it is kinda funny how some of the most OP abilities tend to be given to absolutely ass pokemon (ex, Kekleon being a niche wallbreaker at best even with Protean).

[@emmetstanevich2121]

Also, in gens 3 and 4, the fact that sandstorm was permanent meant that there was no real way to turn sandstorm off unless you specifically ran a weather move (and that still doesn't stop sand from coming back up). Even if you just banned the use of sand veil on sand teams, the likelihood of going up against a sand team was quite high, and they probably aren't spending a moveslot on the ability to turn their own weather off (sound familiar?)

[@_faultee_]

I love using acupuncture Draping with an assault vest on showdown.

[@creativeandfunnyname3744]

Quote of the day: "It's like biting into a sandwich and going "Woah! What the fuck! There's bread In here!"

[@carlos41519]

Never thought id see a thumbnail with sol and pokemon on the same one

[@mario-nk7be]

shout outs to obscure meta stabmons+almost any ability, an other meta mashup, for also banning sleep (and before gen5 at that) bc everything got no guard and good stabs so reliable sleep was free and easy to run :)

[@isuckatgaming1873]

I like that you include pokemon competitive stuff on your channel

[@YayapLives]

I actually like moody as a casual ability. Can really mix things up.

[@birdbonezzz4619]

A great watch. You're well articulated.

[@zorg1476]

This thumbnail is a work of art

[@loafy2]

Haven’t ever played a single Pokémon game but I found this video pretty interesting

[@TheGloriousLobsterEmperor]

Your voice and the way you sit just reminds me of a news presenter. I'm not complaining.

[@zegreatpablo7346]

Seeing Sol Badguy about to wild throw Breloom is not what I expected to need right now.

[@beansfebreeze]

Love love love competitive Pokemon. One of my favorite games.

[@beeorsomething2230]

Trapping move + baton pass being legal sure aged well lol And also gems were banned quite recently so that’s another addition Last thing, the assist ban in Gen 5 due to prankster roar with hazards up

[@darkmatterpancake]

The "ah gottem ggs" are so goddamn funny

[@benjaminsettlemire7006]

1:07 the swsh experience babyyy