Bike-friendliness of new 'urban' suburbs vs old ones

[@michaelzhuhovitsky3889]

Just incase anybody is wondering: First community ( built in 60s ) : Canyon meadows Second community (new with large shopping Plaza) : Seton, located in SE Calgary with the planned green line to service it sometime in the 2040s Third community (in construction) : Alpine park. SW corner of Calgary.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Can confirm. Thanks for the reference 😉

[@CnekYT]

I live in Seton funnily enough so it was really easy for me to identify

[@MrBirdnose]

The goal often seems to be to mimic just enough of the infrastructure of a real city to justify the high rents of an urban core.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

This is a great point.

[@toonnaobi-okoye2949]

Bingo.

[@AltruisticHedonism]

Not just rent - sales too. Not even sure it's close enough to even be described as a simulacrum. It's all marketing, jumping on the current trends without doing any of the hard work, like many DEI initiatives or advertisements from corporations. Works best with subjective criteria on which buzzwords they also choose. Can't wait for them to advertise 'AI' in their next development.

[@fallenshallrise]

Or city mimicking features that home owners directly pay for with an extra monthly maintenance fee on top of the condo mortgage.

[@AltruisticHedonism]

@@fallenshallrise But that's okay, we pay 'lower taxes' in these areas lol

[@reddawn5454]

the most important metric to me, as a ebike and transit user, is how close is a grocery store? (save on doesnt count) ever since i returned from vacation from spain back to western canada, I've slowly come to realize that our entire cities are food deserts

[@scruf153]

I live in a small city in Alabama most everything is within a 5 mile radius I have seen more people cycling witch is a good thing

[@koertdubois6781]

Agreed, and yet that issue is ignored by the "walkability advocates" who seem to be only interested in increasing density and reducing parking minimums.

[@Sosski]

@@koertdubois6781that’s literally the most important tenant of walkable urbanism stop lying. Being able to walk to all of your daily needs (med/dental, pharmacy, grocery, small restaurant etc) is literally the key function of walkability

[@lkruijsw]

The positive thing is that there is at least some experimenting. When I started to follow these kind of channels, I was amazed how North America did the same thing over and over again, without changing it a bit.

[@TrailNachos]

Almost every new development in the suburbs out here in Arizona has those same blurbs about being “walkable” or touting its “walkability”. All while being nothing more than a new shopping center you had to drive to but has sidewalks.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

So you can walk between the car-dependant big-box stores 😢

[@sarahbezold2008]

makes you wonder why they dont attach a mall instead with car parking (if any) on a side away from the main direction they expect walkers

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

​​@@sarahbezold2008There's a more elegant solution. Extrapolate the "five over one" building concept where the ground floor is for shops. Have these buildings laid out in a circle around a park. Use underground parking, and maybe some parking around the circle. Leave the cars out of the circle. This mimics the "SuperBlock" concept.

[@szurketaltos2693]

@sarahbezold it's because the large lot is itself a form of advertising to car drivers. "Come in, we have so much parking!" It's an expensive form of advertising, predicated on the disproven hypothesis that drivers spend more.

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

@@szurketaltos2693 It just shows a lack of creativity. Strip malls suck and look ugly. You'll never want to buy a fancy suit or dine in a strip mall. All you see is parked cars. You have to design your mall like a street in Disneyland. I know it sounds stupid and dystopian. But you can have a carpark and then build a high street boulevard with shops, parks and benches. Or a plaza with a fountain in the middle surrounded by shops. Have some terraces where you can sit down and sip coffee. France has already experimented with outdoor mall ideas in their "American suburbs". La Vallée Village is one example. It's like Disneyland without the fun part. Just shopping. "Bercy Village" is another example. Notice the village theme. But there are only shops.

[@HallsEmporium]

The painted bike lane in the “shopping centre” 😬. So awkward.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

At least they could tick a box 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@sarahbezold2008]

seriously. you'd think in a parking lot cars should be moving at bike speeds regardless. I know I've not had trouble mixing with cars in parking lots at least the few times I've biked through them

[@tbrown5657]

Equal parts facepalm and cringe

[@hi_its_kim]

That 25 minute estimate is only true before the community is built and everyone moves in and starts driving to the city

[@szurketaltos2693]

Exactly, this should be one of the key examples of induced demand, which is unfortunately counterintuitive to most people because ignoring follow on effects is a useful heuristic.

[@MyLifeInTheDesert]

I would just be happy if they used snow plows on the bike lane here in Nevada instead of pushing the snow into the bike lane

[@Thiccolo]

They do that in NYC lol

[@Tindog81476]

Right! Same here in Utah.

[@Korina42]

But nobody rides a bike in the snow! Duh! 🙄

[@Tindog81476]

@@Korina42 NO ONE TOLD ME!! I'VE BEEN RIDING WITH EVERYONE ELSE ALL WINTER!!! Have I broken the status quo?

[@Korina42]

@@Tindog81476 Oh no, you broke it! 😁 Now what will your Transportation Dept. do? You should send them pics.

[@daniellarson3068]

That first new neighborhood kind of reminded me of those Soviet Block homes that you see in pictures. Good bike paths can't be all that expensive when one looks at all the paving done in one of these developments.

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

They are quite expensive! You can't just lay asphalt on top of soil. You have to excavate a ~50cm trench and then fill that trench with a suitable road foundation material like crushed concrete. Pack that material as you fill. Then you have to level that material to ensure a shallow 1-2% slope so that water doesn't stagnate and form puddles. You may have a thin layer of concrete above that and then a thin layer of tar. It's labor intensive and expensive. You'd be surprised by how expensive sidewalks and bike lanes cost. But at least the maintenance is minimal compared with cars. Freight trucks absolutely wreck the tarmac and create potholes through their sheer mass. Without freight trucks, roads would last many years longer.

[@daniellarson3068]

@@user-xg6zz8qs3q Sad to say, I think a lot of bike paths are just laid on top of soil. The ones near where I live have bumps in the asphalt caused by tree roots beneath. I sincerely doubt that they dug a 2 ft (50cm) trench and filled it with good draining material. Your description sounds like the "best" way to build bike paths. The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) probably wouldn't like a lot of bike paths. Do they always need the "best" way? I can't say. The bicycle seems to be able to navigate some pretty gnarly paths.

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

@@daniellarson3068 Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that a layer of geotextile is required to stop the roots. It's just a roll of white cloth. Fun fact: many event organizers save big money on using geotextile in lieu of table cloths for weddings. You can cover your chairs with that stuff too. The "best" way is the way I learned in France.

[@daniellarson3068]

@@user-xg6zz8qs3q In Europe, they build roads to last. I guess the Appian way built by the Romans is still used. France takes bicycling seriously. The premier bike race is the Tour de France. Those bike paths sound like they will survive for generations. Laissez le bon temps rouler.

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

@@daniellarson3068 Don't put France on such a high pedestal! A lot of suburbs look awful and are poorly built. Many bike paths are just a quick line of paint on the road. The width of these roads is often just enough for a car. So it leads to awkward situations where the car trails behind the cyclist at 10km/h. Oftentimes, you'll see narrow bus lanes shared with bikes. It's the same situation but much more terrifying. Other times you'll see cars parked on bike lanes (same as in New York). I cycle in Paris daily. It's a wild ride. And I frequently see bike lanes end abruptly, only to start on the other side of the boulevard. Many intersections don't make any sense. Everyone just kind of honks at each other. It's always chaotic.

[@Bismvth]

Love the insight by the end of this video! It's not about building an 'urbanist paradise' to a complete state in one go. We need to flex and adapt over time, that's how urbanism actually happens.

[@TagetesAlkesta]

I stayed in Bozeman for the first time this last weekend, and it’s so much better than the sprawling carscapes that I’m used to seeing everywhere in this country (like Billings, where I’m from). They’ve put a lot of effort into preventing sprawl there, and the result has been a super dense and lively downtown surrounded by dense walkable multi family homes and apartment buildings. And yeah I know it’s a college town, but most of Bozeman has sprung up in the last ten years and seeing it has made me way more optimistic about the future of urbanism in this country.

[@steverobinson3900]

This is a REALLY interesting discussion Tom and one I've taken a lot more seriously since I got an e-bike. Not wanting to get run over has made me a lot more aware of the urban environment and the lengths wealthy inner city dwellers will go to, to keep their leafy, low-density suburbs to themselves. This then forces developers to to build further out and of course, the money is in single family dwellings or high priced apartments, not shops, or bike lanes, or places of employment that might serve the local populace.

[@Snowydaze007]

Just wanted to thank you Tom for the videos, I recently moved to a bike able city coming from an area where I never owned a bike. Your videos gave me the confidence to buy a bike a learn how to ride/get around a city, and I've been loving it! Once again, thanks!

[@jezzarisky]

There's a big master-planned community in Utah(Daybreak), that I have mixed feelings about. It does look better than the developments you looked at, but it's ability to enable walking and biking still feel secondary and often treated entirely for recreation over everyday uses as travel(though at some neighborhood events, there are a surprisingly large amount of bikes that show up). One minor positive is of it's 4 commercial areas built so far, 2 aren't the typical stroad adjacent strip mall, and are centered within the development(one even has a grocery store), though I'd argue it does still have too much parking that wastes the limited space these areas have for half-empty parking lots.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Overbuilding parking seems to be something we just can't get away from, even in these new suburbs.

[@Korina42]

As someone said upthread, at least parking lots can eventually be converted to something useful; more business, more housing, etc.

[@Droxal]

I just googled this community, and this is miles ahead of any of the newer communities being built in Canada. Once thing that stood out to me are the alleyways, which is something most newer developments do not have.

[@UltraXD.]

You statement of new developments being ‘financial products more than housing for people to actually live in’ ( close enough), really rings true everywhere. It’s such a visible thing now days all over the world but especially in US, Canada and Australia. It’s crazy how focuses on land efficiency for maximum housing rather than parks and ‘3rd places’ can change the place so much, these places have so much potential yet making the development a financial product is the main priority city and developers rather than making a dense, liveable and sustainable suburb.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

Suburbs in North America have great green space ratios. They are not only a selling feature but usually mandated by the city. Far better than core neighbourhoods or European cities.

[@vette1]

the apartment suburb is probably the best of the new ones

[@KimForsberg]

Over where I live in my part of Sweden at least, you have a lot of focus on local communities, with general services, school up to at least age 12 or age 15 and at least groceries within 1.5 kilometers/1 mile walking. Cul-de-sacs are common, but always connect with walkability to pedestrian/bicycle paths (with capacity for emergency vehicles should it be needed). And of course, everything is walkable, the exception are the roads (the things that get you from one community to the other vs streets which are in the community), but then there's always at least some pedestrian/bicycle path not too far from it or connected to it. Over the years, the amount of services offered in the smaller communities has degraded. Used to be we had a proper minimart in my community, but it was replaced with a small corner store only. Much due to more focus on big box type grocery stores that simple out-competed them price-wise.

[@barriobikes68]

It is interesting to hear that in a plethora of places, recent meetings taking place to discuss these topics have turned into marathon length, contentious, events. I can't tell whether that's a good thing, or not...

[@Shifter_Cycling]

On my optimistic days, I think those marathon meetings about zoning are an opportunity for educating people on all sides. On other days, I worry they just entrench opinions even deeper.

[@paulaspinall919]

Frankfurt in Germany is a major city. Back in 1975 I was working in a newish suburb and one lunchtime the local director suggested taking us out for lunch. We walked about 10 minutes from the factory and ended up in the basement of a block of flats, which seemed quite odd! The Italian restaurant was superbly decorated and had a real Italian feel. The food was excellent. The experience taught me the benefit of keeping an open mind to great opportunities.

[@mikewatson1105]

This reflects the present variety of suburban design types in Canberra, Australia, as well as the challenges in promoting future design types! I expect that we'll be discussing your opinions an comparing them with ours; Thankyou.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

Yes, this topic has been on my mind for a while as well, the new suburbs in my city are similar to this. Lots of intra-neighbourhood walkability/bikeability but the unpleasant 'power center' is the same and connections to other neighbourhoods are poor due to being surrounded by highways. It's an improvement over older suburbs but still has some issues. Something Tom missed is that the newest neighbourhoods now include designated small business zones, usually called 'village centers' that are set aside for smaller-scale businesses with less walking. They also have (as seen briefly in the video) huge linear park networks that provide alternative green space routes within the neighbourhood. Those tend to be quite nice. This type of neighbourhood is not my personal preference but I think you could do a lot worse. I will also note that some of the newer neighbourhoods have much more interesting and comprehensive shopping than our city centre due to lower rents and many people less interested in going to our declining city core (crime, paid parking, high vacancies, etc..)

[@jamesmills2474]

Many thanks for your content. I really like your channel. I really believe that higher density in existing communities is the best path forward.

[@co7013]

That first suburb is already showing quite a lot of terraced houses and even stacked apartments of moderate hight. Combined with public green spaces. Not bad. Needs other amenities though..

[@MTBSPD]

The second one was kind of odd, with the traditional 1 story shopping mall surrounded by an ocean of parking in a community with four story apartment buildings. It's possible to put a grocery store or other large retail use under an apartment building. If it's truly walkable/bikeable, people will take their cars for a big grocery shopping trip, but when they go to the pub, cafe, hair salon, etc, they can walk or bike, so it would be possible to have a lot less parking.

[@MrBirdnose]

I have a friend who lives in an apartment building next to a grocery store, and...you really don't want to live near one. All night long semi trucks are backing in with their reverse beepers going, or sitting there for long periods with their refrigeration units running. It's not conducive to a good night's sleep.

[@chrisblue4652]

@@MrBirdnose I lived next to an grocery store before (literally right behind the store only seperated by a wall. And I didn't have an issues with these kind of noises. I loved living there, we would frequently randomly walk to the grocery store (it was like a 4 minute walk) any time we need something. Maybe the layout of the loading area of the grocery store impacts how noisy it is.

[@michellebacon]

Yeah, you need a smaller urban footprint grocery for it to work. The one attached to my 1980s highrise takes smaller truck deliveries every 2-3 days, and only during the day. It's the dang garbage trucks that wake me up with their reverse beeping/slamming into my building :(

[@adampeters51]

Unfortunately I do think these type of psuedo-urbanist areas could hurt the urbanist movement as they often don't provide the tools (public transportation, crosswalks, corner stores, etc.) for the neighborhood to be truly successful (ie not needing to own a car) yet at the same time they don't provide the type of parking required for the forced car dependent life. This creates a struggle that many people who oppose the movement can use as evidence against urban design. However, I am hopeful that these neighborhoods will encourage other developers to build more areas with even more urban design elements.

[@LankyFrank]

Would love it if you name-dropped the communities you visit in future videos. As a Calgarian, I like to see the different areas I would normally never visit. I live in the southern-most train community you passed through and it feels so far from everything of note. I really want to see changes and updates in my community but people are so opposed to updates, it's sad.

[@SomeDudeQC]

In my home town everything was touted as "on the golf" where they built suburbs between golf clubs with no stores in sight

[@KCH55]

As a USA southerner porches are definitely are a place for social gathering. Porches in the south serve a purpose of protecting the house from wind, water, heat. So he wasn't wrong initially but that's apart of southern culture. And isn't something that can be just replicated. Southerners view the outside as the extension of living. People used sleep on porches during the summer pre A/C days. Southerners also emphasis hospitality, which means the put emphasis on putting your house in order, so a lot mainly the lady of house would rather have guest entertain outside, then have you see the disaster of a lack neatness the inside 😆 *also porches can be converted in sunrooms or mudrooms etc, I would say its a good idea add anyways. Porches don't just have serve as a social gathering. Porches should be viewed as unfinished basement, or garage that allow the home owner as need be.

[@la-go-xy]

Mudroom 🥾👟🚲🛴🛹

[@RosssRoyce]

You have a very good sociological insight and analysis that exposes the pathetic inner dynamics of snobbery!

[@TheSpecialJ11]

As an urban planner, I quite like the new suburbs. Not because they're actually that good and better than cities. But because compared to the old suburbs, these new suburbs can potentially be converted into actual cities when push comes to shove and we finally realize that the automobile development pattern is a dead end. Pun not intended. Those crappy, boxy apartment buildings with giant parking lots next to them can have the parking lot converted into mixed use developments, and those broad boulevards connecting all of them can actually potentially support a bus route leading you to more successful and financially viable places. Meanwhile, the traditional suburb I live in, built in the 1990s, doesn't stand a chance. The houses are too far apart to support transit service, biking to downtown and grocery stores is possible but highly inconvenient, and the sheer quantity of asphalt, pipe, and concrete is going to drown future taxpayers in property taxes. I'll have moved into the city by then, enjoying the fruits of gentrification at unfortunately high rents, my parents will have moved to some retirement community, and this old neighborhood will be a "ghetto" of working class immigrant families that can't afford to maintain anything and are forced to get by on high travel expenses. My point being, these crappy new suburbs are much closer to being viable places to live, so long as local authorities allow people to convert homes into businesses and split large lots into smaller ones.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Great points, thanks for sharing.

[@Hani-be2ww]

Maybe I'm a pessimist but those all seem to be very thin interpretations of urbanism. The problem I believe is that these plans depend of a few large job anchors. That would be like building a "walkable" suburb around a Kmart. Better than nothing but still quite the ways to go.

[@dmitrykarpenko2271]

How about having underground parkings?

[@ronvandereerden4714]

As an urban planner, you should be nothing less than completely horrified. These far flung low density, unwalkable gong shows should not be being built at all. There will be no push and no shove. Why would there be if you can just move farther out to the next one? Stop expanding!!! Start infilling!

[@mindstalk]

@@dmitrykarpenko2271 Expensive.

[@ezekielcarsella]

While the infrastructure is definitely the problem, the culture is honestly the real issue. Politics (and infrastructure is definitely a part of politics) is downstream of culture and the culture of people who own homes or have a stake in how cities change have become quite hostile to living in actual communities seemingly. Even in the Southeast with southern hospitality, a lot of people are very hostile to people even fellow americans moving in near them out of pure selfishness and spite. Wish I had something more constructive to offer on this (great video btw!) but just wanted to let a rant out and see if it can help anyone think thru things. Cheers.

[@baddriversofcolga]

The extremely unnatural nature by which these suburbs are created is truly grotesque.

[@szurketaltos2693]

The Roman centrally planned street grid isn't exactly naturally created, but until recently in the US/anglosphere (but not in, say, China) it was subsequently allowed to meet needs that arose. That's the even bigger problem than the way that these developments are planned. It shouldn't require something like a unanimous vote of an HOA to allow densification.

[@Spanderson99]

Unrelated to this video, but if you’re ever in the southwest, take a spin around the Westhills Towne Centre mall. I work at the bike shop there, been here for 2 years now. In tue middle of this gigantic parking lot, they built the saddest looking playground I’ve ever seen. Now it’s not just a strip mall, its the Towne Centre! I’m sure this is the part they emphasized when they pitched the idea to the council. Except nobody in their right mind would ever let their kids use the playground, since it’s in the middle of a parking lot!

[@torinsall]

The questions for us when we look at ideal places (yes we like single family homes) is can we safely cycle (bike or recumbent trike) to grocery store, bank, restaurant, ciffee shop, hardware store, shopping center, library, doctor offices, dentist, eye doctor, interconnected bike trails, parks. And yes we still need a car for required longer trips, but the goal is trips under 5 miles by bike. Currently there are many roads we refuse to cycle (or sometimes even to walk) on bcs they are too dangerous.

[@abicyclist]

I didn't see any bike parking along the routes you were traveling. Every business needs to have safe protected bike parking right near the front door. The same needs to be included in the homes as they are constructed. Sometimes I think the planners never actually use bikes for their transportation.

[@chrisw4175]

The bike lane into a curb is classic afterthought.

[@tomaszgalkowski8701]

The last one, with communal spaces and small commercial centre... the "new urbanism" ones... we used to call them "a village". :D

[@London755]

Idk, streetcar suburbs of the pre-war era are pretty nifty.

[@GonkaGonkaGonka]

I think the street car suburb offers what people believe the suburbs are, they are compact, quaint, quiet, and safe, while not actually being a huge waste of resources that will eventually bankrupt the city the burb is attached too

[@nukewares]

Great video as always. Perhaps a good follow up to this is the contrast between inner city densification vs greenfield high density communities. For inner city, I would think of East Village and Bridgeland in Calgary, while the two communities you picked are great examples of greenfield: Alpine Park and Seton.

[@trtcttcgo]

A good comparison with Seton would’ve been University District. It isn’t a traditional suburb but the large greenfield space shows what is possible in suburb developments. We have a lot of space in the city (old malls, parking lots, unused schools) that can actually support a walkable community.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

I thought about that, but I think the University District is a whole other idea. Speaking of which: Where are the bike lanes?

[@Spanderson99]

They’ve managed to create a lively street with lots of people out and about, which isn’t great for us since we have to ride on the sidewalk! The nearby Bowness Road bike lane is a great example of how it should’ve been done.

[@nichonthebeach11]

Great job Tom! Thanks for all your videos! I sent you an email couple of days ago but I know you very busy!

[@arnavgautam319]

I am writing from New Delhi - India. Whenever I talk of cycling being made a priority in a city where you have 400 AQI on a GOOD day... The problem is that people ask me what about the summer months? Summer recently touched 50 degrees Celsius i.e., 122 degrees Fahrenheit of almost tropical, scorching sun! We do have elevated light rail (Delhi Metro) but it is not connected to everything! How do I convince more people?

[@Shifter_Cycling]

This is a difficult problem, and I often wonder if it's equatable with a Canadian winter when it's -30C. There are ways of adapting to cold, so I wonder if there are ways of adapting to heat as well 🤔

[@arnavgautam319]

@@Shifter_Cycling I wanted to ask if you had some ideas for a solution... there are places in North America where it touched 120 degrees Fahrenheit and around thise temperatures right? Have you asked bike commuters there about the heatwaves? This can be a great video idea!

[@la-go-xy]

How are your trees in the hot season? Do you have any in town? We are not near that hot in Germany, still, the plants make a difference already, casting shadow and not heating up... Southern Europe has some narrow streets with multi storey buildings that keep cool, or arcades.

[@la-go-xy]

Has anyone ever tried sunshades for bikes?

[@arnavgautam319]

@@la-go-xy there are trees but they are not everywhere along the footpaths. Also, even in lot of residential places, trees don't really spread out to cast a shadow over the road... they look like mini pine trees (if you want to search, search about the Ashoka Tree)

[@ChinmayaNagpal]

Great idea for a video, man. Keep at it!

[@garyseckel295]

Want to see you doing bicycle tours.

[@NeverTooTiredToRideTwoTyres]

💯 production value. vid is beautiful!

[@davidgorman7911]

The comedian Rich Hall (American but lives and works in Britain) says that one of the biggest differences is that on a nice summer evening Americans will hang out on the front porch, Britons will hang out in the back garden. But he's from the South (VA and NC) so maybe that's different!

[@GreenJimll]

The real difference is that in Britain we might get a week or two of "hanging out" time of nice summer evenings if we're lucky. 🙂

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

I think it's silly to generalize. In most North American suburbs people hang out in the backyards because there's a deck, patio, shed, play structure for the kids, bbq, privacy, and no worrying about cars for kids playing or having to talk to randos walking by if you don't want to. In Canada, in particular, front porches are pretty useless most of the year because winter shoves people inside for a substantial part of the year and the backyard is just a nicer environment. That doesn't stop them being included in many of these new builds but they are almost never used as far as I can see.

[@definitelynotacrab7651]

Assuming the train line does get extended to the first new suburb it at least has good bones to potentially become better. The old stuff with massive lots really would need a lot of infill to support transit, and that raises a question of can the utilities support that when they were designed for sprawl.

[@AlexPotvin]

Alpine park had the best "feel" of all the neighbourhoods we'd checked aside from the new sections of Seton. I think Belvedere is also relatively walkable for a suburb given the scale but the transit connects are deficient. I highlighted the lack of transit as an issue and the response was the new section of the trail just negates the need in the near-long term, which... Knowing Calgary, yeah, a bit. OG Seton has the downside of "respecting" the landscape, it's kinda midway between what they're doing in the Northeast and... lol, I'm gonna say it, a new Quebec surburb. In the end I'd rather live in the center.

[@harryeast95]

So... I live within about 6km of about four of these kinds of things. It would be more but planning permission was denied for that one, The contrasts between them are almost as interesting as the contrasts between them and the older sprawlburbs which, obviously, I also live near a bunch of. Ten years ago you start to get some kind of bike provision and anything older than that none at all. It's actually very difficult to distinguish noughties sprawlburbs from 90s, 80s or 70s ones. The newest ones basically all have off road bike networks -- often actually separated, rather than shared paths but there are shared paths. There's no midrise buildings of the sort in that hospital suburb that you visited, instead density is delivered via townhouses. Community centres are a feature of the two bigger ones, both of which are about as developed as that second site you visited. In the nearer big one, they've actually started work on this community hub though both have operational cafes already. They also have schools already, though one of those is a relocated and renamed school that was formerly on the other side of the motorway overbridge (it;s on the same road). I read one of the advertising billboards at this relocated school site and it's selling itself with this bikeable, walkable neighbourhood stuff... as well as pointing out that because it's a coastal development you don't have to worry about the aesthetic you're buying into being built out: this will forever be the rural fringe because of the water. There are two things that really get me about these developments. Firstly. there's absolutely no interest in creating a coherent network. Once you are out of the subdivision the bike network just dies. One of these is really egregious because you could so easily run a bike lane just a kilometre or so to the primary school and going the other way you can literally see a sports field... across a bridge which doesn't even have a footpath. This might be the real reason it's difficult to distinguish the 70s-00s sprawl from each other: they lack the stark demarcations of the boundaries of the patchwork expansion that these disconnected cycling networks create. The second thing is that some of the houses being built are absolutely massive. Yeah, there are townhouses a few doors down which is new but if you removed them from the equation, the density is probably worse than the old days simply because of the sheer size of the properties. There are lots of other sprawlburbs going on atm but I don't get out of my general area very much and when I do it's overwhelmingly the case that I'm going deeper into the rural hinterland. There are two new sprawlburbs of note out that way, too. Well, there's three but I've only been to the third once so I can't really pass comment on it. Those look more old fashioned in the sense that they're reasonably small, single family dwellings with no townhouse neighbours. But they share the same basic design features of very narrow roads, bay only parking and bike provision. One of the sprawlburbs I'm much less familiar with is absolutely massive. Just townhouses everywhere. It's quite a lot closer to the CBD than out here (it's expanding into a different compass direction), but not that far away. Like, you go down that road, take a right turn at the top of the hill, go down that road and you're there. It's basically had a full on mall built for it... which I guess is an improvement on the big box car park you went to? They call the mall the town centre. One of the two smaller subdivisions actually has a banner advertising that it's only fifteen minutes away... which is hilarious because on the other end of the very road that you read that banner from there is another "town centre" and that's like a 90 second drive way (it is, for now, more or less a collection of big boxes). Interestingly, this is the one new subdivision which is semi-connected to somewhere else by bike since they built a shared path from it all the way to the school (it doesn't quite reach as far as the shops).

[@Johan-vk5yd]

I get that we need to apply a general perspective based on what humans need to live a good life as a first priority. Energy efficiency is quite compatible with such a perspective, I believe. Unfortunately we’re stuck in an economic paradigm of expected revenue. The two principles might even be mutually exclusive for what I know? I like your work very much, and consider becoming a member.

[@MultigrainKevinOs]

Excellent video Tom! really speaks to the weird donut effect we see in Edmonton and Calgary that is kind of hard to explain to non cyclists (or non urbanists). Inner cities and old street car suburbs with bike "infrastructure", transit etc... that surprise are our hip neighborhoods where people want to be. Then a dead zone as you hit 50s to ~90s homes then a sort of return to quality again as we get newer and newer developments. Suburbanites see their trails as more than adequate to enjoy a rec bike ride. Much of it even built before the community is ever even done for them to enjoy from day 1. They are confused why cyclists complain we need more bike paths and infrastructure, "don't they have paths in their parks too?". Flipside older areas are completely devoid of the quality paths, little parks, the faux urban centers (yes as bad as that one was its better than anything older burbs have), all the amenities the suburbs enjoy now but are ideally situated for short quick commutes by bike to the city core. So, you have this confusing situation of people arguing for/against new suburbs when in many aspects they have what we want as urbanists (and cyclists too) and older core areas that are still completely left behind and enjoy none of it. And... everyone is stuck in their cars anyway in all these post streetcar era burbs because we don't have the connections to far flung places with transit or cycling. I really like what Edmonton (and i am sure every city) has been doing with their neighborhood renewals slowly picking areas and bringing them up to modern standards with all the little paths and parks we just expect now in our newest suburbs. But it's expensive, slow and doesn't change the footprint of what is there now as you point out. Changes like that with zoning (congrats Calgary on proceeding on yours!) will make those older areas a natural for car free living. But they also need the "dreaded 15 minute city" items like jobs, services, business there too to fulfill that gap.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

The Canadian prairie city experience is certainly interesting, with decade-long development patterns making the city look like a tree with distinct rings in terms of neighbourhood planning. Two things you didn't touch on: work from home/jobs moving to the suburbs are really de-emphasizing the need for long car commutes, as least to the city core. Saskatoon's downtown, along with Regina, and probably every prairie city except for perhaps Calgary has seen a massive flight to the suburbs due to high rents and crime concerns. We aren't Toronto or Vancouver and land is cheap on the outskirts and services and jobs will, and have, followed. Second. crime and poor housing stock really haunt some of the first and second-ring suburbs, not just downtown. The prosperous areas see good turnover of families in older suburbs and the houses are kept up while the poorer older suburbs have declined very quickly as people would rather leave for the exurban cities for the same housing prices rather than deal with a declining neighbourhood. This is a bigger issue than any generic planning one, in my opinion.

[@Kenny1977-b1j]

Similar in Australia - new suburbia marketed with all those key words, but ….well, not really in practice. Land prices have ramped up since the wide-open suburbia era (though nowhere near Canadian levels… though seems calgary isn’t too bad, but Vancouver…!!!) so economically everything has to be built smaller. The marketing is mostly to mask that? The “urban village” isn’t that real. Yes, Houses are smaller, closer together, BBQ pits, “parkland” / undersized “sports” fields…. But still mostly car dependent, and with carpark wrapped shopping areas

[@KCH55]

If I had assume agriculture community either means a co-po or a community victory garden. I kind always wished for return of of village farming, (smallholdings).

[@ronvandereerden4714]

Simply insane that these developments (I won't call them neighbourhoods) are still being built anywhere in the world. We aren't doing a whole lot better in metro Vancouver, but I just connected on a flight through Calgary back to Vancouver and the suburbs, from the air at least, are like night and day. I didn't see a single highrise in Calgary outside of a small downtown footprint. They are everywhere in metro Vancouver and come with all sorts of walkable mixed uses. That pickup truck commute says it all.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

I disagree, I think these 'new urbanist suburb'-style neighbourhoods are pretty reasonable. In Saskatoon they are already some of the highest-density neighbourhoods in the city and have huge demand. Many jobs are also following the people out to where they live, for better or worse. Compared to Vancouver's model of building 40 story towers filled with 600 sq. ft condos that are sold to money launderers from around the world and kept vacant I think it's a decent alternative.

[@ronvandereerden4714]

@@TheF9f9f9f9f9 No matter how great they might be, by definition they are diluting the core of density and maintaining a certain type of sprawl. I'll bet you that they will never be as walkable as traditional urban cores nor what the areas around those cores could be if new development was put there where it belongs. Even though it's working not too badly in the Vancouver region, they are making a big mistake extending SkyTrain to Langley. To far too soon, robbing the inner nodes of the growth they need to finish the job of being true urban cores in their own right. Auto dealers and gas station owners applaud SkyTrain tp Langley knowing everybody out there will drive for most everything they do even if they commute on SkyTrain while creating a reason to maintain car dependent single family suburban style development closer to the city. Don't believe everything you hear about the state of the development industry here. New taxes have tamped down the number of empty homes as well.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

@@ronvandereerden4714 It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, e.g. both densify existing neighbourhoods and build new dense suburbs. It is very city dependent as well, in particular the Canadian prairie cities not named Calgary do not have large downtown office and/or entertainment districts that draw in huge numbers of commuters so there isn't a major advantage from that point of view. In addition, the prairie cities have to compete with very aggressive exurbs for population, particularly in Saskatchewan and Winnipeg. Either the core cities build reasonably decent neighbourhoods like this or families move to commuter cities, taking their tax dollars with them.

[@ronvandereerden4714]

@@TheF9f9f9f9f9 Why would you build new dense suburbs if you haven't finished (or often even begun) densifying existing neighbourhods closer to the core? It is economically, socially and environmentally wasteful. Suburbs, and especially exurbs, are Ponzi schemes. Provincial governments should severely limit the practice. But then you'd have to vote in everybody's best interests instead of the interests of Ponzi. It's easier and more profitable for Ponzi to build new developments way out there and then pass on future excessive costs to taxpayers than to develop what would work better for society as a whole. Prairie voters buy the wrong story and it will always cost them more as a result.

[@thomaspomeroy5678]

After binge watching many of your videos and getting excited about biking to work every day (3 miles) I bought a nice comfortable bike as I am getting to an older stage of life. One problem I encountered I didn't expect. When mounting the bike, I couldn't life my leg over the bike. IT was a little balance, but mostly no flexibility and strength in lifting my leg over. Here is my question: Do you have any exercises to help an old geezer like me to get that side leg strength and flexibility, or different ways of getting on the bike. Right now I am laying the bike on its side and just stepping into it.

[@een_schildpad]

The understanding of the definition of "walkable" seems to be different to people with an also centric perspective. I was really excited to hear my city counselor talking about the importance of walkability in a new development until she clarified her definition... which was that you could park your car and walk to more than one store/restaurant 😭 meanwhile, I was thinking it meant people arriving there by foot/bike/transit.

[@andrewh88]

Theres a new suburb in my town called "Alton" thats somewhat similar to whats being built in your town

[@Kenny1977-b1j]

There’s maybe a related topic here about the social (societal?) effects of moving to smaller housing (and Dutch, or Vancouver, viewers would be best placed to speak here). I suspect Canadians, like Australians (I’m in Perth), have a culture in part built around those wide open suburbs - Kids grew up with own bedrooms, young kids played unsupervised in back yards, street hockey…. Put young families now into 1-2 bed apartments and “town houses” (inner city or new “urban villages… similar deal?) - kids need taking to the park, noisy neighbours through the wall, no private space for teenagers (homework? Friends over?) . Is it the end of street hockey…?… can Canada survive😀🇨🇦

[@quackywhackityphillyb.3005]

i think these news suburbs are just a worse place to live, there aren't as much trees and nature, or privacy as the old suburbs, and they don't have the walkability and amenities of living in an urban area.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

This is the crux of the issue, are they the best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds! You can find arguments on both sides. Certainly people like them and neighbourhoods in this style are in hot demand. Something Tom didn't mention is this video is that the newer suburbs often go with the 'fused grid' style of roads, which gets rid of those long, straight arterials that are so common in older suburbs and encouraged drag-racing speeds. Older suburbs also require cars for even intra-neighbourhood trips due to low connectivity whereas the newer ones have more dispersed commerical and greenways connecting a lot of the neighbourhood.

[@statelyelms]

I'm glad there's anything that is changing, but it really feels like the same thing over and over with no lessons learned. I can see that they're better than the old ones, possibly. But losing that incremental development really locks the entire area into its current state in perpetuum. And don't get me started on how I think we've completely screwed local businesses. All we build is huge, disconnected commercial buildings, and there's so few markets.

[@tomf9292]

I spend winters in S. FLA in an older development. 1700 single family homes and 500 condos. I live in a 950 sq ft ,2/2 villa on the golf course. This isn’t a gated community. I’m 59 and I bike everywhere (Florida is pretty flat thankfully)! We have every store you can imagine within 1 mile. There’s an incredible amount of suburban sprawl but we love where we are. The single family homes have front patios and I often have conversations with my new neighbors. I bike to the gym then the hot tub/pool then maybe go fishing in the canals. We’re only allowed 1 car and honestly never really needed our other car.

[@oskarsyren]

No where else in the world is the presence of highways a hurdle to providing busses.

[@jrother]

Why all this emphasis on rental units? And Tom, your comments at the end about the master planned aspect and the lack of adaptability are spot on. If a 'neighborhood' has a website, I'm suspicious. Because it's designed to make a developer money rather than make somewhere truly human to live.

[@mindstalk]

"Why all this emphasis on rental units?" Why not? A diverse mix of housing types serves people with different needs and incomes. There is no legitimate reason to exclude rental. And there wasn't even much emphasis, just a quick mention for the first community.

[@VictorChavesVVBC]

"Walkable community" with total separation between living space and commercial spaces 👍 surrounded by highways 👍 starting out with 4 to 6 lanes all around 👍

[@car_tar3882]

my controversial opinion is that car dependant suburbs are great for cycling so long as there are connections for bikes/people to amenities from slow streets ie mall having a wide sidewalk to a neighboring street.

[@Coccinelf]

I'm living in a streetcar suburb from 1880. It's not too bad for pedestrians but it's still so bad for cyclists even in 2024 :( I think it's a great thing if the marketing has changed. It means people want it, people value walkability. It's a nice shift!

[@oskarsyren]

”it’s so new there’s not a lot of transit”

[@maxring837]

Isolated suburbs might seem like a good idea while the kids are small but as they grow into teenagers create many social problems. Outer suburbs end up being anti social areas to be avoided.

[@oldbrokenhands]

I'm groaning at the impending enshittification of urbanism.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

This is the right word 🙏

[@TakanashiYuuji]

4:14 this shot .. if you told me you were in the Netherlands, I would believe you. Maybe replace the football goals with soccer (real football) goals XD

[@nairbos]

Can't speak for Calgary - but in Vancouver, the older neighborhoods are *much* better for bike + walk commuting. The new ones are really awful for it and barely have competent transit.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Vancouver, from what I've seen, has done a much better job than Calgary in making those older communities more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists by actually restricting the flow of car traffic. We haven't gotten there yet.

[@thestevenmartinshow]

I think the music was mixed a little loud in the intro.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Thanks for the feedback 👍🏼

[@thestevenmartinshow]

Great video nonetheless! You echo a lot of how I feel about my cities newest communities. In the newest neighborhood the shopping centre has a little plaza in the middle of a sea of parking. I love some of the ideas. Maybe they can grow into something great.

[@ClintonAllenAnderson]

Great video, but please... Those shots with the camera mounted on the bike are nausea enducing

[@kailahmann1823]

"25 minute drive to the city" as a selling point? Ah, yes… Especially, as these numbers are probably unrealistic like hell. That might be one for a (relatively) remote village, where your neighbors are deer and bears. But for a suburb?

[@SolarizeYourLife]

Well you said you got to the suburbs by train, but how was the commute on the train with the bike???

[@derekjolly3680]

I have to say, regardless of the biking for transport, the older suburbs you shot, look extremely appealing for the living, especially with all that greenery, trees, space, quiet, etc. That place is no ghetto, nor is it likely to change into one. Wally and Theodore, June, and Ward, would feel right at home there. I think at the heart of any of this is having pubic grade schools in a new section of a city like this. If that's not there then it all kind of strikes me like a "Twilight Zone" episode. You know with mannequins and stuffed animals and atomic test houses. Probably you could add having a grocery store and a library to that as well. Both of these things relate to school children and their mothers and that kind of stability. Where I grew up starting in the late 1960s in Northern California we had those two things pretty rapidly, and it was essentially a brand new development separate from the older areas and cities.

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

The older-style suburbs remain popular for the reasons you mentioned, beautiful mature trees, bigger lots and the construction in the 60's - 90's was often better in terms of building material quality with hardwood framing and etc.. I guess you could say if spacious suburbs remind you of the Twilight Zone, European commie block-style apartment rows remind me of the Chernobyl level of Call of Duty. :)

[@derekjolly3680]

@@TheF9f9f9f9f9 I was getting at a lack of grade schools in a new development reminding me of a "Twilight Zone" episode actually.

[@standard-user-name]

If we want to have better places to live we need to get rid of the idea of a "downtown". I've seen some of these communities and they all fall flat compared to small towns, because they are at best islands of urbanism. I think we need to ditch the large cities and build and grow small towns, with high speed rail connecting them.

[@AtzeHHouse]

How hard can it be to put some MUDs in these communities!? Absolutely baffling

[@dmitrykarpenko2271]

From "NYMBY wars: new hope" (nice condos with infrastructure)... ... to "NYMBYism strikes back" (same single family houses, but "we have a barbecue now")

[@repairdrive]

What city in Canada is this?

[@electricerger]

I hate archipelago shopping centres. Significantly worse to walk around than strip malls

[@williamgreer4958]

I think you are being far too kind 😊

[@mindstalk]

Ironically your first suburb looked pretty good by US standards. Actual multi-story buildings! A train station! A bus passed you! Sidewalks!

[@songofyesterday]

No front facing garage just means a ton of cars parked on the road. I hate that even more than front facing garages 😆

[@Dysprosio2]

"It´s a financial operation" is the answer. You can see the land that was sold to developers and the fake city environment is buit inside this formerly rural setting.

[@SlashinatorZ]

I live in the McSuburbs of Texas. Its why im a virgin at 30.

[@tthomas184]

Who would want to live in a place that is building after building of cookie cutter design, with no attention to variability? They completely miss the point of what makes small towns and urban centers so charming. This is almost Soviet style bad, housing for worker drones.

[@user-xg6zz8qs3q]

Maybe you're just being too kind? I just see regular condo blocks. I know that Vancouver has more sophisticated urban planning, and it's also higher density. I just don't see any focal point in that city. It's a missed opportunity to build plazas, centering the community around a train station. Build a shopping mall and offices on-top of that train station. Build commercial streets perpendicular to residential streets. Interesting cities have mixed commercial/residential areas and parks. This city just looks like a European suburb built in the 70s. I am complaining, yes. But I see this as an invitation to outsource the planning and architecture to Europe. You'd even save money over employing Albertan architects which clearly don't know what they're doing. Hire a small Polish architecture firm. What do you have to lose at this point?

[@GordonSlamsay]

Why dont they extend the trains before the development goes in? Wouldn't that be more efficient? Stone two birds at once n' all that?

[@TheF9f9f9f9f9]

Transit mode share is very small in most North American cities, it's not seen as essential. In my Canadian city some of the newer, and quite big, neighbourhoods don't even have bus service yet.

[@GordonSlamsay]

@@TheF9f9f9f9f9 bruh I've lived in Mississauga all my life we don't even have a subway. Like it's a big ass city so wtf Stockholm's got like 4 lines and it's a fraction of the size rea wise

[@CARN3L]

The World Economic Forum has been rolled out their agenda for 15 minute cities. And it's only recently taken effect in more cities around the world.

[@fallenshallrise]

I mean congratulations for trying but be bolder. On vacation a lot of us have visited these quaint towns with 1 cafe, 1 ice cream shop, 1 brew pub, 1 pizza place, a corner store or grocery... they are really fun for about 3 days and then what? Same coffee every morning, a breakfast wrap for brunch, the same pizza every night? Then put all of the businesses in a strip mall and make them franchises that's the death blow. Everyone who buys these houses or condos will be bored out of their minds minutes after unpacking and will be driving "25 minutes" into downtown for all of their entertainment.

[@pascal9190]

So they build a whole new suburb out in the middle of nowhere - so they probably had pretty much free reign and could have done anything to make it less car-dependant, learn from other cities that are years ahead - and they obviously still decided to allow on street parking. Was there any need for that? This alone makes this a failure in my book.

[@stevep2430]

Where are all the EV charging stations? I would of thought with new suburbs and the drive for people to drive EV vehicles, EV charging stations would be every where.

[@rudycandu1633]

The video quality was really weird. To me it looked like you were using a green screen. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWKmm61_fqqUqZYsi=h1Y9PGZEfipMz0u_&t=68 After I while I was able to tell that wasn't the case, different scenes. I knew it wasn't the case but some of the segments on their own seemed that way.

[@Wilem35]

You mean the sickening suburbs?

[@scruf153]

anything car centric is bad period

[@psuedonymalias]

shouldnt you be wearing a HELMET?

[@PlanePower2]

Those new "Urban" communities just do not offer much diversity. 1, maybe 2 places to grab groceries from a box store (at best) and pre-planned parks isolated from other/ differing parks. 2 highways trap anyone but motorists within it confirming the 15 minute conspiracy. Plus it destroys arable lands that could be better used to grow food. Sprawl also means more infrastructure expenses and perpetuates the pyramid scheme of cities.

[@JimEatsPlants]

So , Alberta has supposed right wing governments while BC has progressive, but it seems like Calgary & Edmonton, while having their issues, are still way ahead of most of BC outside of Vancouver or Victoria... We have no light rail in the entire province. BC Transit doesn't own a single articulated bus. Our NDP is indistinguishable from the BC Liberals who turned into the BC Conservatives. Aside from our climate and natural environment, BC is really depressing. It seems like aside from the fear of winter, things in Alberta would at least be better than here.

[@leahvanloon8217]

Supposed right wing government is actually far right.