Bill Moyers interview with Ursula K. LeGuin about "Lathe of Heaven"

[@ChiannaNycole]

i miss interviews like this when the interviewer actually read, and gives a damn about the topic.

[@9SmartSand6]

Hardly anyone reads anymore. They watch blogs or KZbin videos.

[@aurora9252]

Ay 🔥

[@DigitalEelRich]

Bill Moyers is legendary--and right wingers despise him. He started out writing speeches for President Johnson. Much later he'd become famous for the Joseph Campbell/Skywalker Ranch interviews (The Power of Myth). Cool guy.

[@PainfullySubjective]

listening to this interview in 2024 & in struck by how articulate & intelligent the host is. you don't see interviews like this nowadays

[@tenorly]

Absolutely. Bill Moyers is a legend in his own time for that very reason. He's 90 and - though retired - still with us.

[@tabbycat55]

Bill Moyers is, and was, always amazing. Check out his series with Joseph Campbell. ❤

[@neuromantoo]

I saw it when it was first broadcast and for weeks I could not get it out of my head. Almost 40 years later it still affects me.

[@OgWoot]

same..

[@Scodiddly]

Me too. I was around 14 at the time. Managed to see it on rebroadcast, then had to wait many years for the dvd.

[@Rheinhard]

Rest In Peace, Ursula K. Le Guin ... October 21, 1929 - January 22, 2018

[@Quenry]

The way she writes you wouldn't know she talks in such a relatable way.

[@filmcourage]

One of my favorite interviews with Ursula. She will be missed.

[@TheNocturnalpheonix]

Film Courage Came to say the same. 💖 She, and her works, helped shape so much of who i am as a person, and who i identify myself as. Core moral values and beliefs... unending gratitude swells within me. Safe travels on your next journey,Ursula. 💖💛💚💙💜

[@filmcourage]

Thank you! Nice to read this. Love that she has touched so many people with her work. Appreciate the kind words. :) Great that we can still watch interviews with her.

[@craigmanning2439]

So many good books. Lathe of Heaven is so unreal. But the Eathsea's novels are what my 12 year old self remembers. Left hand of darkness is also so very good. I could go on and on.

[@catherineblack2970]

I keep rereading her books. There's always MORE in them. RIP UKL.

[@CosmicFork]

"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood... is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it, will be destroyed on The Lathe of Heaven." I don't care if there were no lathes in ancient China, I love this quote from the book... because it's true! Mystery is an integral part of life... you must learn to live in the light of the mystery of being.

[@mindhacked]

:-?

[@ian4iPad2]

but according to some sources, the earliest known depiction of a lathe was an image inscribed on an Egyptian tomb dating from 300 BC. Also the Vikings are known to have turned wood on foot powered lathes. I don't know how ancient the Chinese proverb is and, of course, I may have dreamed the whole thing up.

[@robgoulding689]

But to follow that proverb would just lead to scientific apathy? If we had remained content in our ignorance we’d still be Hunter gatherers.

[@craigmanning2439]

I know this is a really old comment but you sir have understanding beyond the normal. I wish we could have a beer, joint or nothing over a plate of good BBQ.

[@baremetalmachine933]

@@robgoulding689 That's my interpretation also. The sentences before that line in the proverb are even more discouraging: Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. (who's "we") (Anyone whom heaven bestows knowledge on is one of us) They do not learn this by learning. They do not work it by working. They do not reason it by using reason. (In other words, anything you "need" to know is bestowed upon you by heaven, not by your own hand and mind) To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. (It's virtuous to stop trying to figure things out for yourself) Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven. (Anyone who who cannot accept that all knowledge comes from heaven and won't quit trying to figure things out for themselves will be destroyed on some machine tool in heaven) I wonder if this proverb was lifted from some other text and therefor lacks context. I think it is talking about trying to know the mind of God. You are supposed to just accept what you cannot understand (about the nature of God). And putting human nature and tenacity and curiosity aside and just accepting things that you cannot understand as God's ways... THAT'S the high attainment I think the proverb is aiming for.

[@5minuterevolutionary493]

An acquaintance of my parents, she was generous to young adult me with her time and suggestions. She stands as a crucial pioneer in fiction, period, and of course specifically in her work relating to alternative gender dynamics, the relationship between science and nature, and so many topics we are in the midst of now. Her early novels are my personal favorites, as i am more a sci fi than fantasy person, but earthsea matters a lot both in the genre and in its substance.

[@mawoj93]

I've watched the film a couple years ago and I read the novel just now, I knew I had to watch this interview (which I had on watchlist for ages). This is new one of my fave scifi books ever. It's beautiful.

[@stevenharper9085]

What a wonderful lady with a brilliant Mind, thank you for posting this

[@phillipford2216]

A favorite of mine from her oeuvre; UKL's take on a Philip K Dick novel, and set in my home state of Oregon too. Er' perrehnne!

[@leylayucel9648]

It's interesting to think about what she acknowledges about good intention--that sometimes even good intent--not evil--can yield horrific results. Politically, one may have good intention, but manifesting subjective "good" for things that cannot be fully understood, and which conflict with others' natural rights are bound for catastrophic results. While I do believe in direct action to uphold ideals, I also agree with the statement that to let understanding stop at what cannot be understood and respecting individuals' natural rights are key to a more peaceful and prosperous society.

[@Skill5able]

I read that book years ago and it's been sitting in the back of my mind ever since, but I couldn't remember the title. Three quarters through this interview I realized. Thank you very much for uploading this, I'll re-read it asap.

[@MrBillcale]

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

[@kmcq692]

Just like technology is first Magic. Then Industry Standard. Then Infrastructure.

[@jadenwaz9585]

“True words aren’t charming. Charming words aren’t true.” -Lao Tzu

[@staudesign]

It's great to finally meet Ursula K. LeGuin.

[@taftchatham7456]

“We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art, the art of words.”--Ursula K. LeGuin

[@RkristinaTay]

So what does she want? Socialism? Sounds exactly what she doesn't want since she knows that busybodies always screw everything up for everybody else. Progressives are busybodies and love controlling other people's life and money.

[@Kurtlane]

And yet, The Lathe of Heaven is one of the most anti-left, anti-socialist, anti-anarchist books ever written. I know of only two books where writers, led by their genius, wrote books against their own beliefs. Books that transcend the authors. One is 1984 by socialist George Orwell. The other is The Lathe of Heaven by radical leftist Ursula LeGuin.

[@Kurtlane]

As for the quote above, be careful what you wish for, cause you might get it.

[@pristinerecords]

These are very ignorant comments. Firstly socialism is not the only alternative to capitalism. Leguins views as expressed in many of her novels most would understand as anarchist. Anarchists are completely critical of the authoritarian left as much as they are of capitalists and bootlicking fascists. Did you read lathe of heaven? How could it be considered "anti-anarchist"? İt is about power, the doctor "representing progress and change" (as she says in video), attempts at control, a bureaucrat intoxicated by power, orchestrating terrible systemic "solutions" to systemic problems.

[@expertnonexpert885]

@@RkristinaTay She saying that we can imagine something better. And you're demonstrating that this isn't true.

[@BubbaZen10]

One of my favorite books from one of my favorite writers.

[@JAZZROK]

I would love to have a cup of tea or a snifter of Cognac with this author and just listen to her stories for hours...Thanks for providing this...

[@Guesswho-x4o]

What an amazing person she was. What I took from the lathe of heaven, was a morality take. As Einstein said.... The tragedy of mankind is that his technological development has outpaced his moral development. To me it's a Frankenstein like story: that there are things we should not attempt... That we are not a kind or wise enough species to do so.

[@andreklinge4052]

I like how a lot of her books have like worlds that are mainly made out of islands.

[@Norfolk250]

She speaks the way my mother did. Every recounting had 'she said / he said / I said' where at times she'd even repeat, as though excited, but.... not excited. She'd say she'd say this, by telling someone what she said, and then what I said then what she said.... An odd memory of oh-so long ago.

[@zerotense]

This is a fantastic interview. Thanks so much for posting.

[@simonbrooksstoryteller]

This is such a great interview with two very interesting people.

[@integral]

Lovely woman and a brilliant author. Check out "The Word for World is Forest".

[@SerPounce23]

The last lines of that story break my heart. Was he leaving home or returning?

[@hippomancy]

first read Lathe of Heaven at age 14. reread a few times in high school. then about age 22 started rereading it at once a year. quickly, glossing, and perhaps because of this I develop different impressions each time. love the taoist heart of it.

[@pantagruel6]

Beautiful, thanks for sharing.

[@craigcarleen2118]

Fantastic... thank you

[@maskedmarvyl4774]

For me, Dr. Haber reminded me very much of the character of Macbeth. He didn't assassinate a king to take his place, but the similarities struck me. Macbeth seized power and tried to rule by sheer force; and the more force he used, the more things got out of control; so Macbeth had to use More force which only increased the number of his enemies, and caused events to get even more out of his control. So too does Dr. Haber manipulate the passive George, who has godlike powers but doesn't want to use them, and ultimately tries to seize his power with his "Ultimate Augmenter", to force his will on the world in order to save it; and winds up destroying himself. George accepts that he can't save the world from ending, but intends to enjoy the rest of his short life, knowing it's going to end soon. I actually thought that was kind of a downer, but it's better than trying to reshape the universe in your own image and getting destroyed on the Lathe of Heaven.........the Lathe of Heaven...

[@sarahnichols4439]

Interesting parallel between Dr. Haber and Macbeth. I was thinking about Dr. Reinhardt in Disney's Black Hole. Meaning: both Dr. Haber and Dr. Reinhardt are disconnected from humans, both try to play God, neither one has the ability to stop, and both are destroyed by their own ambitions. As George said, "Just a thought."

[@fahrudincatovic8133]

rest in peace dear Ursula.

[@tulliusexmisc2191]

I loved the book, I didn't know until now it was also a film. But I always interpreted the title in completely the opposite sense: a lathe is a tool for creating, shaping, constructing. George's dreams, or George himself, are that tool, but Haber in his hubris cannot use that tool responsibly.

[@OrdenJust]

I find her choice of surname for the character Haber interesting. The famous chemist Fritz Haber can be remembered as someone who did someone wonderful for humanity, with his discovery of the Haber process for manufacturing ammonia, yet also as someone whose invention of poison gas for warfare is horrifying. It is hard to say the ends justify the means, when both ends and means are dubious.

[@curiousgemini]

The meaning I get from this novel is the dangers of hubris, even if one intends to do good.

[@julichio6241]

My favorite book.

[@craigmanning7393]

I love that there are no 'bad guys' in Ursula's writings.....well that is not actually true... the bad guys in her books are usually also the 'good guys'. Ged, was both the Hero and the bad guy(his shadow), George Orr was also both the good and bad guy. Its why I love her works. Its more about the intellectual part.....I know its a bad translation but it is still true...."To let understand stop at that witch cannot be understood is a high attainment, those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the Lathe of heaven'.

[@dsharpness]

Pottery wheels are lathes, bow drills too...said on yt channel, "a lathe is a machine that can make machines"...cites the French inventor's lathe as the beginning of the industrial revolution...

[@DanielSolis]

Wow, hell of an interview here.

[@craigmanning7393]

The Lathe of Heaven is actually a pretty good movie compared to the book(of course the book is better). But this movie does at least a decent job of capturing the feel and intent of the book. Unlike the Wizard of EarthSea movies that well, horrible to say the least.

[@marieloweanderson350]

What a great interview!

[@gustavramirez2891]

I disagree about Le Guin not being good at creating bad guys - Cob was an extremely compelling villain in "The Farthest Shore".

[@x_frost635]

This lady is the shit ok thats not very appropiated but fuck, shes genious

[@GLORYNEVADASMITH]

I assumed that : Dreams , imagination and aspiration were The Lathe of Heaven until I read different .

[@allieeverest]

So lovely to hear her talk! Ughh!!! The interviewer keeps trying to put her work in a neat little box and pin down all the meanings. That completely reduces the nuances and scope of her work. She says herself "I dont like to say what meaning my books have. Thats for the reader to decide." "Be careful what you wish for"? How fake and simplistic can you be? Makes the book sound like an after school special rather than a profound speculative work about the nature of realty and human beingd

[@magicksocks1]

i think a lot of her books have been influenced by taoism in some way.

[@lohfu]

Actually, she's claimed that Taoism (or the Taoist spirit) runs through all her works. I quite agree.

[@fintanwatson2791]

@@lohfu She wrote a translation and interpretation of the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu.

[@9SmartSand6]

10:45 "...creatures from outer space end up completely Americanized". Perhaps in a more modern retelling, they might have all managed convenience stores, driven Uber cars or taxis, or become healthcare workers.

[@RedSpiralHandTV]

Ursula rocks!

[@tamistone2632]

Yes

[@mandarinagalactica7102]

does someone know when was this recorded? Thanks

[@Mr.Howell78k]

"For some reason George's dreams come true." 🔥 Over 40 years later l am still wondering why. ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓

[@tobyw9573]

Ursula and Alfred Bester, were the best, I think.

[@AlphaGeminorum1]

So, the movie The Butterfly Effect is sort of the same kind of storyline in a way.

[@capucnechaussonpassion14]

The part where she talks about feminism and finally writting female main characters is amazing

[@ericchristen2623]

The lathe could be any device that can punish or reward human activity on Earth...

[@whlewis9164]

The lathe is any intricate device whose purpose is to shape a raw source material into something defined. Shaping the uncarved block for your own purpose and design.

[@Boris_Chang]

The lathe of heaven is empowered imagination.

[@dsharpness]

Aladdin's Lamp..."good defeated"...😢...real while you're there...

[@markbennett8927]

An annarres rocks the moon x

[@Mr.Howell78k]

Poetry to me is like all the Chinese made items in the dollar store that you don't buy and will never buy. 🍄 Or the last apple in the bag that rots before you get a chance to eat it.

[@rareform6747]

Portland did in fact melt down 2020 💥

[@ScienceFictionRetroactivis-j1w]

Le Guin video: The US has not lived under the Modified Capitalism of The Founders since Woodrow Wilson inflicted the Marxist Tax System on The US over 100 years ago, then The Founders international trade system was removed gradually after WW II, for Marxist "free trade". So, the Capitalism Le Guin refers to was highly influenced by Marx from 1949 on, with the usual loss of the middle class predicted by Marx in his well-known 1848 “On the Question of Free Trade” speech. A discussion of the state of Oregon, USA. Portland Oregon has made shoplifting essentially legal up $1000.00 - bankrupting many small businesses and driving out large ones, the city has a huge population of homeless living on the streets - robbing people and conducting occasional riots. People expect state and local governments to provide basic Law and Order. That said; 13 of 36 counties have voted to secede from Oregon, this is very unusual in the US, and rarely seen since counties left pro slavery states during the Civil War. This secession attempt is completely serious and has been going on for years and is over half the geographical territory of Oregon. There is nothing “ambiguous” regarding being attacked and robbed on the street. Why mention this? Because Le Guin’s philosophies and political policies, appear to be thinly disguised as her SF novels. Which is fine, many SF novels and short stories contain the author’s thoughts on these topics, it is why we read them. However, Le Guin’s seem to have become dangerous to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for many Oregonians. She was active in Oregon politics for many years. The Oregon political elite seem to take her novels seriously, with disastrous results. Le Guin lived in a 19th-century house in northwest Portland, Oregon from the 1960s until her death in 2018. She wrote many of her books in her second-floor writing studio, including The Books of Earthsea, The Dispossessed, and The Left Hand of Darkness. As a Comparison and Contrast to Le Guins’s theories - particularly ‘The Dispossessed”, I would suggest further reading if not already consumed: “Anarchaos” Donald E. Westlake, “The Weapon Shops of Isher” A E van Vogt, “Watchers of The Dark” Lloyd Biggle Jr. I assume most people have read “Nineteen Eighty - Four” and “Fahrenheit 451” - find uncensored Del Rey copies of the Bradbury, 1970 and older for Orwell. Just a few and mostly pretty short!

[@antonshkrounin8281]

I get a feeling the interviewer does not want to be there, asks silly questions and is restless. Much more interesting to hear Mrs Le Guin talk in other videos, from conventions.

[@ScienceFictionRetroactivis-j1w]

Hmm, the US has not lived under the Modified Capitalism of The Founders since Woodrow Wilson inflicted the Marxist Tax System on The US over 100 years ago, then The Founders international trade system was removed gradually after WW II, for Marxist "free trade". So, the Capitalism Le Guin refers to was highly influenced by Marx from 1949 on, with the usual loss of the middle class predicted by Marx in his well-known 1848 “On the Question of Free Trade” speech. A discussion of the state of Oregon, USA. Portland Oregon has made shoplifting essentially legal up $1000.00 - bankrupting many small businesses and driving out large ones, the city has a huge population of homeless living on the streets - robbing people and conducting occasional riots. People expect state and local governments to provide basic Law and Order. That said; 13 of 36 counties have voted to secede from Oregon, this is very unusual in the US, and rarely seen since counties left pro slavery states during the Civil War. This secession attempt is completely serious and has been going on for years and is over half the geographical territory of Oregon. There is nothing “ambiguous” regarding being attacked and robbed on the street. Why mention this? Because Le Guin’s philosophies and political policies, appear to be thinly disguised as her SF novels. Which is fine, many SF novels and short stories contain the author’s thoughts on these topics, it is why we read them. However, Le Guin’s seem to have become dangerous to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for many Oregonians. She was active in Oregon politics for many years. The Oregon political elite seem to take her novels seriously, with disastrous results. Le Guin lived in a 19th-century house in northwest Portland, Oregon from the 1960s until her death in 2018. She wrote many of her books in her second-floor writing studio, including The Books of Earthsea, The Dispossessed, and The Left Hand of Darkness. As a Comparison and Contrast to Le Guins’s theories - particularly ‘The Dispossessed”, I would suggest further reading if not already consumed: “Anarchaos” Donald E. Westlake, “The Weapon Shops of Isher” A E van Vogt, “Watchers of The Dark” Lloyd Biggle Jr. I assume most people have read “Nineteen Eighty - Four” and “Fahrenheit 451” - find uncensored Del Rey copies of the Bradbury, 1970 and older for Orwell. Just a few and mostly pretty short!

[@emom358]

Turtle power! ❤

[@brendaschouten-beckett6448]

Brian Rush

[@rosiepsong]

zhuangzi chapter 23 winnowing wheel

[@wickedprotos1937]

"Left Hand of Darkness" was not a favorite. The "Lathe of Heaven" was a much more impactful book I think.

[@tmseh]

🎶 *I'll try not to sing out of key...........* 🎶

[@ericchristen2623]

Going with the flow of corruption that causes indefinite suffering is irresponsible neglect.

[@BeverlySchnett]

after re examining "The Dispossesed" and founding it rather dystopian i have no patience for all this lies and cynicism of intellectuals from the U. S. compared to the reality of U. S. ideology "1984" is a honest and open minded society

[@qrs_tuv1925]

to be IS to do

[@Kurtlane]

The movie is pretty good, but the book is incredible. Almost on the level of 1984. One of the most anti-leftist books ever written. George, except for his dreams-come-true blessing/curse, is a normal guy, not a leftist. He reacts in ways a normal guy would react. He is not really the hero here. The hero is William Haber. Here is a true leftist. Never gives up. Always "Progress!!!" and "Forward!!!" and "The Future is Bright!!!" Creates disaster after disaster, and never even blinks. Ultimately, creates a machine and plugs himself into it, so his dream come true. And what are these dreams? Better life? Utopia? Not at all! Just change. Change for the sake of change. Change upon change upon change, faster and faster, everything renewed within days, hours, minutes, until the fabric of reality itself rips apart. This is as deep as one can penetrate into the inner consciousness of a leftist. There is no core there; no God, no science, no taste, no sanity. Just a bottomless pit of this eternal tornado, swallowing everything that exists. What can be more evil?

[@andrewbecker1013]

You do realize that Ursula LeGuin is a leftist, right? And that so was George Orwell? And that none of their writing is in support of right-wing ideology or economics??

[@DonnyWilmer]

Answer: You. YOU "can be more evil". 🤟😀👍

[@Kurtlane]

@@andrewbecker1013 , I do realize it. However, the best books can rise above their authors. This is what happened to 1984, and the same thing happened to Lathe of Heaven.

[@andrewbecker1013]

@@Kurtlane look, if you're gonna make up bullshit to support your ideology, don't do it to authors that despise your ideology and their works which in no way support your ideology.

[@Kurtlane]

@@andrewbecker1013 , whatever. That was my view. Like it or not -- I don't care. I don't even know what my ideology is. You, however...

[@seguogatti]

MITO

[@ericchristen2623]

Villainy is not interesting.

[@KatimaMulilo]

A warning to Progressives...

[@andyscott5277]

Not at all. More like “neoliberals.”

[@andyscott5277]

@Sparkling Cyanide. well you sound very well adjusted 🙄

[@l3eatalphal3eatalpha]

No, the blind spot in ideology.