Billy-(UK) | Why Do Atheists Nitpick About The Definition Of God? | The Atheist Experience 25.48

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

"I can't believe in a god just because you're befuddled by things." That was good.

[@perserverance333]

True, we believe in God because He exists, not because of another's befuddlement.

[@TrettinR]

@@perserverance333 Got anything to back up that assertion?

[@r0ky_M]

@@perserverance333 How did you determine g0d is a "He"..?

[@cy-one]

Or that it exists.

[@zacharyberridge7239]

@@perserverance333 demonstrate your claim, please, or go away

[@aidenmartin6674]

When a theist calls about god and doesn’t define the word god, the atheists is supposed to automatically know which god and which personal variation of that god that the theist believes in. Because that particular god is the only true god.

[@aidenmartin6674]

@James Hodson “Love your dad’s cars btw. (I bet you never heard that before)” That’s true. I don’t even know what you’re referencing.

[@WukongTheMonkeyKing]

Every religion is a religion of one. Unfortunately, each one doesn't want to reveal that they are different than any other one.

[@UlshaRS]

Hilarious thing is he says "There's more than one" the one implying arguments for a god but in context of there being two concepts being discussed it could also be taken to mean he's conceeding the concept of more than one god because his argumentation is so poor and it's an easy turn of phrase to jump on.

[@huepix]

@James Hodson if you've ever owned an Aston you know there is no god

[@arthurunknown8972]

@@WukongTheMonkeyKing that's a good one! I'm gonna use it in future. You come up with that?

[@tshepokgwele1789]

Matt : explain yourself. Billy : well, it's not that I can explain myself, it's that an explanation can't be explained by using an explanation, so I will have to explain by using a greater force that can't be explained and understood.

[@kamion53]

sounds like the answers sir Humpfrey gave in Yes Minister

[@pdcdesign9632]

So the answer is: *****WORD SALAD*****

[@UTU49]

@@pdcdesign9632 I incorrectly predicted that you were going to say, "42."

[@gurgleblaster2282]

@@UTU49 no you just got the wrong user name because the answer is 42!!! Dear God your a prophet because this was predicted months ago.

[@sfprivateer]

That's a good word salad to fool most people from realizing that you have no idea what you're talking about. And when they present that crap to people who actually think themselves, it ends up being a chaos.

[@cnault3244]

"Why Do Atheists Nitpick About The Definition Of God?" As an atheist, I'm going to continue defining god as imaginary until a theist proves me wrong.

[@philosopher0076]

Research NDEs and ADEs. Pretty good evidence in that research that there's an afterlife and a God or intelligent " Source " from which everything arose and arises from. It's science. Nothing to do with religions, dogmas, myths. It's data from scientific research.

[@navythriller]

Philosopher 007 Name your sources, please. I'm not aware of any peer-reviewed studies that provide evidence for NDEs. I'm also not aware of any reproducible test results pertaining to NDEs, or any history of using NDEs to make verifiable predictions. Where's the science?

[@cnault3244]

@@philosopher0076 "Research NDEs and ADEs. Pretty good evidence in that research that there's an afterlife and a God or intelligent " Source " from which everything arose and arises from. It's science." I have no idea what an ADE is. As for NDEs, they are evidence that a brain starved of oxygen can hallucinate. It's science. Apparently you are defining god as something your brain can believe it experienced when it was suffering from lack of oxygen. Reminds me of some things I hallucinated when I was bedridden with a very high fever.

[@dx1450]

@@philosopher0076 Oh it is fucking not. There's absolutely no evidence that NDE's are anything but hallucinations caused by a brain which is being starved of oxygen and in the process of dying. And even if you could somehow prove that there is some sort of afterlife, it still in no way proves that a god exists.

[@lorianabanana6066]

@@philosopher0076 What?! I have no idea how you could get that from NDE's. First off there is actually a ton of research where test pilots experienced NDE's in g-force training. When the blood is forced out of their heads in g-force testing & pilots pass out they experience classic NDE symptoms- seeing themselves from above, walking down hallways or tunnels towards a light, feelings of peace & unity etc. It can also happen during DMT trips, because our brains naturally release DMT during crisis. When you lose conciouness during brain injury you can often have these experiences, it's just a function of your brain. Penn & Tellers Bullsh^t covered this in an episode, it's very well done & sourced. Also they've done experiments where they leave objects in ER's on top of cabinets where people would see them if they were truly 'out of body', but nobody has ever gotten the notes/objects correct. Almost like they were just dreaming instead of disembodied...huh. Pretty suss. Also even in more medical trauma NDE situations, people tend to experience images they already accept. Catholics see Mary, Evangelicals see Jesus, Muslims see Mohammed, it's like normal dreams to a certain extent. People see what they know. If there was a specific god- wouldn't we all see the same thing? Finally alot of the classically cited religious NDE's are admitted fakes. Really look into this, not from a religious prespective but from an honest, skeptical one. Like don't take my word- look yourself. But really & truly throw out your confirmation bias. Don't look at religious sources, they have a religious agenda.

[@gazza595]

"If we could prove god, he wouldn't be greater than us" one of the best BS excuses I've ever heard. The caller actually thought it was a piece of rational thinking.

[@Andrew-it7fb]

If a god existed, it could prove itself to us.

[@cy-one]

We can prove the Sun exists. We are greater than the Sun, apparently.

[@kingspeechless1607]

I think that was told to him and he was still trying to work through it. I think here, there is a strong candidate for a 'convert' (which I know is a ridiculous word to use in the context, so my apologies) to atheism.

[@TheBox225]

@@kingspeechless1607 many people call the "losing of faith", "deconversion". Would they be a de-convert?

[@ronhansen8471]

@@Andrew-it7fb no the true God cannot. His power is such that if we were to see him it would be fatal. The proof of a God is in his physical creation. (Romans 1:20) "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable"

[@stevenread5473]

This show demonstrates how hard it is to deprogram someone who's brain has been damaged by religous indocterination.

[@CerdicTheGreat]

Yes, religion is insidious.

[@wwlib5390]

steven read - and you are positive YOU have not been indoctrinated by walking in the counsel of those who reject God of the Bible or standing and sitting in the seat of the scornful. Evidence is found by all those who seek Him as tho their lives depend on finding the answer. John 3 16 invites you to know His love and His promise to you personally.

[@jayrose8638]

It runs similar to gambling addiction. You promise a great prize but you have to play the silly game to win it. The big difference is gamblers don’t threaten you with infinite torture if you don’t also gamble. Usually.

[@denverarnold6210]

@@wwlib5390 yes, we are pretty damn sure.

[@nathan-ih2vi]

@@wwlib5390 shut the hell up 💀 there are millions of people who’ve actively sought god and still don’t believe. there are plenty of highly religious people, pastors in particular, who’ve lost their faith and i’m sure they thought they were seeking god.

[@sophistichistory4645]

Listening to Billy's voice produced an overwhelming urge to buy a car and home insurance bundle.

[@richiejohnson]

Brilliant! That's a bell that can't be unrung. What a visual!

[@artistjoh]

Billy’s lack of imagination and lack of education about the appreciation of beauty made me want to lock myself in your newly insured car with a gallon of fuel and a box of matches, and a desire to light a match…

[@christopherbarker7643]

It does doesn't it I thaught they got ahold of religious text support.

[@acgsmith6853]

You are correct sir.

[@dlon4539]

Billy's voice urged me to make a cup of tea and cucumber sandwiches

[@paulmcdonald312]

Billy is proof that it is easier to fool someone, than convince them they've been fooled!

[@beaconeersofthesevenmaps3467]

In Italy we say: "it is easier to put it in their arse than in their heads"

[@IRGeamer]

"I don't have a problem with ignorance. We are all ignorant about a variety of subjects we are not currently aware of. The real problem is when that ignorance is wilful, intentional and used as a weapon against anyone who disagrees with you, or anyone who has the nerve to present facts you don't want to accept." - anyone who actually cares about verifiable reality

[@lonnyhandwork422]

As a musician, I'd like to thank Billy for giving me god-like status!

[@AlDunbar]

Yeah. I was going to say that, sure, people are just moved emotionally by music. But the idea that we cannot explain why applies to the caller and perhaps lots of people. But I think composers and performers of music have a much better understanding of it. When a composer produces a particularly moving piece of music, she might thank god for her gift or she might rightfully be proud of what she created.

[@jeanramirez6441]

Lol music is part of nature and we have perfect it thru the years just like electricity

[@pencilpauli9442]

Billy isn't saying all music is profound.

[@lonnyhandwork422]

@@pencilpauli9442 That’s true - he’s not saying all music is profound. But he is saying that the way some music affects us profoundly can’t be understood (without evoking god et al). That’s not true - it’s well understood.

[@pencilpauli9442]

​@@lonnyhandwork422 Okay, I know that Lonny is joking, but it's a hellova leap to conclude that ALL musicians have godlike status from the claim that SOME music is profound. Even excluding Yahweh from the conversation, it's fair to suggest that people experience what could be what can be described of as "spiritual", when listening to music. I'm not talking New Age woo. You can put it down to a chemical reaction in the brain causing a sense of euphoria or ecstasy. I won't argue against neurological science. But the experience felt is still real and it's not surprising that it will continue to be seen as an indication of something bigger than the self.

[@wyatt562]

Just one answer among many others to Billy's incredulity: In 2019, USC conducted a study to solidify our knowledge of the intersection of human music and emotions. There are very simple answers to why it makes us feel certain ways: Rhythmic, dynamic and timbral CHANGES trigger the area of our brain called Heschl's Gyrus. This is in our Primary Auditory Complex where the "inner voice" and language switching processes are also handled. I'm no neuroscientist, but it seems that a part of the brain, developed tens of thousands of years ago, whose sole purpose is to listen to natural sounds, lights up when non-natural sounds are heard. A good example of the study showed that an increase in dynamics caused test subjects to sweat. From an evolutionary perspective, this is a simple input/output relationship between our brains analyzing the increasing noise and assuming it's related to danger/fear, thus sending out signals to other parts of our brain to elicit emotional responses in hopes that the test subject gets the hell out of there. Self-preservation, that. Nahhh I'm totally kidding, god did it, we can never know.

[@brucebaker810]

It'd be interesting to apply that research to writing/creating music. I'm confident many are already on this.

[@landsgevaer]

Heschl's gyrus contains primary auditory cortex that just responds to any basic sound, which includes language but also meaningless noises. It isn't fancy, and that was known way before 2019. I hope it is straightforward to argue that sound is important ecologically. It is the only sense that allows you to directionally observe all around you, even behind you and at a distance. Quite important to detect cues that should alert you to something. No neuroscience required fto argue that.

[@jazzfree1541]

"in hopes that the test subject gets the hell out of there" - this call makes me wonder how Billy's ancestors managed it 😬

[@Nine28457]

Billy .. just because a dog can’t explain what this “miraculous” box called a TV is, or how it works and why, does not mean that a God must have created the television. Just because an ant can’t visualize the macro world around it does not automatically make us “gods”.

[@CerdicTheGreat]

Yeah but dogs don't care about how, they care about treats, running around with other dogs and snuggling next to you in front of an open fire. We spend far too much time pondering our navels and not enough time just living. We could learn alot from dogs, yet it is we, in our solipsism, that think we can teach them.

[@kingspeechless1607]

They would have far more cause to contemplate gods than we do

[@ericjohnson6665]

@@CerdicTheGreat - Dogs contemplate (sniff) the butts of other dogs.

[@joyfulzero853]

@Leroy Boone No I think a dog would just think you are a 'pack leader' if you are up to the task.

[@joyfulzero853]

Why does a dog need to explain a television? It doesn't feed or water it, shelter it, save it from danger, or anything else!

[@leisulin]

I can't understand how Matt can bear to listen to guys for so long like this while they sidestep Matt's questions.

[@krisaaron5771]

Billy has turned dithering into a fine art. Working with Billy as your supervisor -- especially in a creative environment -- must be a special, terrible form of hell!

[@iAtheist4Life]

😆

[@Fluffykeith]

Simple. Because otherwise when we explain an issue we have with a generic definition of God, Theists say “oh but that’s not the god I’M talking about...”

[@ronhansen8471]

Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18, 19)

[@Fluffykeith]

@@ronhansen8471 That’s such a worthless definition that it gets us precisely nowhere

[@rho5539]

@@Fluffykeith what he mean is that... "worship" and the word "god" comes hand in hand. if you don't worship anything then you do not have a god. you worship a pencil then that pencil is your god, and so on.

[@Fluffykeith]

@@rho5539 I know what he meant. But such a definition is essentially meaningless. No one ever suggested that a pencil created the universe. All this stuff he’s said is just hand waving

[@FallingGalaxy]

And there are the ones that when backed into a corner go to "You can't expect us mere humans to dare try to DEFINE god now can you? I wouldn't dare presume to!" I've had this from people before.

[@tonydarcy1606]

I have a "higher power" in my house. It can travel very fast. It is invisible, makes no smell, can't be touched, quiet and can't be seen. It, at my beckoning , can heat water and air, provide light, run tools, cook and do all sorts of things that I can't do without it. It's called *electricity* and it is worthy of the highest praise despite being mysterious to many ! Hail the mighty *ELECTRON* !

[@kingspeechless1607]

I think Matt was implanting serious doubts in Billy's head, which was not too surprising, he was trying really hard to come across as sensible and in touch. As Pink Floyd said "quiet desperation is the English way."

[@CerdicTheGreat]

As an Englishman I resemble that remark.

[@Yungrexy]

*"The time has come, the song is over... Thought I'd something more to say-aa-ay".* Kinda ironic as I was thinking this call sounded like an alternate intro to Radio K.A.O.S, *"Welcome to The AXP, we got Billy from the UK on the line!"* Half expected a talking Hawkin style voice to kick in :p With Matt's responses , a BBC microspeech app and Roger's song 'Towers of Faith' one could make a perfect segue between the Radio KAOS & Amused to Death albums.

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

“there’s no dark side of the moon really…matter of fact it’s all dark” (perhaps the greatest bit ever…)

[@cryptofacts4u]

Billy needs to rewatch this episode! He seems really nice! And hopefully he's able on rewatch to see the flaws in his reasoning

[@qwadratix]

Yes, nice enough to stand in the crowd and pray for the soul of the heretic being burned at the stake, with a pure conscience. As Voltaire remarked, “Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Nice people like Billy are capable of true evil 'for your own good'.

[@cryptofacts4u]

@@samuelcalderwood1379 I was bullied growing up. That wasn't bullying. What about HIM did they make fun of or belittle? No, holding him intellectual accountable for the words and ideas he expresses in a confrontational way, is not bullying.

[@jayrose8638]

@@samuelcalderwood1379 do you also sense a god? If so maybe don’t trust so much in what you “sense”.

[@nathan-ih2vi]

@@samuelcalderwood1379 bullying is continuous so even if matt did belittle him, which he didn’t, it still wouldn’t be bullying 💀

[@jayrose8638]

@@samuelcalderwood1379 no you don’t. You would be more convincing.

[@reggiedixon2]

Billy has studied at the Hugh Grant school of getting to the point. He seems to think that by not giving any definitions or reasons then his position (whatever that is) cannot be challenged.

[@dangeerraaron]

Hugh Grant 😅😅😅

[@mynyasabut]

The thing way beyond Billi's comprehention is LOGIC!

[@TeethToothman]

Wow! "Listen to music" is definitely my favorite version of "look at the trees".

[@alvarogoenaga3965]

I can't believe the guy just said it. "If it can be proven to exist then it is not a god". A gold medal wouldn't be enough glory to this champion of mental gymnastics.

[@MG-ot2yr]

Billy has just another 'look at the trees' argument

[@christopherbarker7643]

Highly agree

[@evidencebased1]

Bottom line.

[@madshorn5826]

Which can be answered with "well, shit happens" just as well as with "my imaginary friend did it".

[@paulgemme6056]

Atheists offer no hope, just death. Is that because they are afraid of what might be on other side? Hell is real and heaven is real. Just because someone wants to and does stick his or her head in the sand doesn’t make the reality of heaven and hell go away. That’s what atheists do. Atheists mind set- You die, bye, bye see you no more. God’s/Jesus’ mind set-believe (have faith) and you will be given the gift of God, eternal life (to know me). No religion needed.

[@alfresco8442]

The same tired old trope of it being unable to experience wonder at the sheer awesomeness of the universe and nature in general without there being a god.

[@ejflor1313]

Billy: I don’t understand where the assumption is Matt: it happened when you used the word “if” Billy: so you don’t like the word “if” Matt: no, here’s what I mean [30 second cogent concise explanation] Billy: so maybe the word “if” is the problem so I won’t use it

[@donovantucker5166]

Says his example will be unique, and proceeds immediately to "look at the trees".

[@CatholicSatan]

Another God of the Gaps argument... quite tiring stuff.

[@driverdave1]

Billy needs to learn about neuroscience, and how emotions are just brains reacting to stimuli with chemicals. No higher power needed!

[@martinconnelly1473]

If god was involved with the beauty of music then wouldn't all music be wonderful showing the glory of god (which I think would cause arguments wherever you raised it as a point of view) or anyone who wanted to write music would just close their eyes and scribble on a piece of paper knowing that whatever they did would produce wonderful music. Billy does not seem to realise that only music that passes through the sieve of the minds of human listeners (look Billy, no god required) and passes the test of being considered good does not fade into obscurity. Additionally what is considered good gradually changes over time to further screw around with the perceived beauty of music.

[@rho5539]

and who created the brain and that stimuli? who programmed the brain to function that way?

[@EinKerl3554]

@@rho5539 4.2 billion years of evolution, random chance and the worst case scenario of pragmatism.

[@itzyourbwoytchybooxuur6475]

@@rho5539: It's presumptuous to think it's a "who" don't you think?

[@marcusreading3783]

@@rho5539 Odin. No, wait, it was Vishnu! Maybe it was Ptah? Or perhaps Vedlanava the Star Dragon? Or was it the Furtive Pigmy? Or could be Prometheus. Any one of those could be the 'correct' one and they all have exactly the same level of evidence for them. That being 'some book says a thing'. Why dont you believe in any of those?

[@martinfield9667]

The uk is a largely secular society..in my experience most of us atheists don’t even know someone like Billy let alone be offended by his nonsense.

[@FallingGalaxy]

To be fair, that only means you need to get out more. 53.6 percent of people in the UK are Christian, for instance, and 'only' 40.2 percent are non-religious (Not even all necessarily identifying as atheists, btw.). Yes, more secular than America, but not as much as you're tunnel vision wants to pretend it is.

[@efester]

@@FallingGalaxy I think the 53.6% may well be an accurate figure, but I'd be pretty certain that the large majority of those aren't necessarily practicing, or attending church.

[@TheGodpharma]

@@FallingGalaxy I'm guessing that's a number from the UK census. For reasons I don't understand, there is a very large number of people here in the UK who call themselves Christian (they'd probably say 'Church of England' actually) or who, at least, aren't willing to say 'none' to the census question, as I do. I think it comes from an ingrained reluctance to let go of the last vestiges of religious indoctrination and admit that, yes, I'm an atheist. If more of them watched this show they would very likely realise that they are in fact atheists. The idea that over half the UK population is in any sense actively Christian, or any other organised religion, is absurd.

[@ddy7323]

@@TheGodpharma it's the same in France my grandmother called herself catholic and my mother was baptized but neither of them ever prayed, nor ever married, they never went to church, i was essentially raised in an atheist household, we celebrate Christmas called Noël here and when i was a kid i didn't even realize it had anything to do with jesus christ.

[@dilldathrill9010]

@@efester my whole family would write Church of England but not a single member goes to church and to my knowledge not one has ever actually read the bible. the majority of the kids at my school would just assume they are Christians , Christmas and Easter were what we were taught

[@starfishsystems]

"If we could summon god [so as to be reasonably convinced of its existence, like I can with the jar of pickles that I claim is in my fridge], then we wouldn't be able to say that he wouldn't be a greater thing than us." Wow, a Special Pleading fallacy, right on cue.

[@DaleFromSyracuse]

"Because, because, because, because.....because of the wonderful things he does" :)

[@NastyLittleBagginses]

Pretty sure Beethoven had a fairly good understanding of music. And I feel confident in saying that Billy can't comprehend much of anything.

[@cade377]

I get the feeling that he filters everything through his "God" filter, to get to an appreciation of anything.

[@AlDunbar]

@Gary Allen true, but he did know what they sounded like. Also, he was not born deaf.

[@jerdal6825]

Matt: “I’m going to let Dan take over! Matt’s inner thoughts: …for about 5 seconds

[@UngoogleableMan]

He really needs to stop doing that. We all know he's not going to leave it to the co host.

[@lotanerve]

This is your brain on religion.

[@bubbercakes528]

As a father of a neuroscientist I take offense at this mans assumption that we cannot understand anything. I’m almost positive that music probably makes our brain react in a way that is pleasing to us. I see no problem with that assumption. So much has been beyond our limits before but isn’t now. We are evolving rapidly and I believe given time we will know so much more.

[@mr.mcbeavy1443]

Of course. There will ALWAYS be questions to answer. Every answer reveals a new question.

[@kevinw.6177]

“God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

[@sportsfaninternational1614]

Hey, Billy? Ever heard the saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Do you know what that means? To simplify it, it means that what's beautiful to one person, isn't NECESSARILY beautiful to another. Next!

[@noracola5285]

Billy's whole opening statement is a proof against god 🤣

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

What are you doing? 'Doing Stuff' What stuff? 'You know, stuff' No, what stuff? 'Stuff with things' What things? 'You know, things' (From the halfwhit quiz, felt relevant lol)

[@DerekADempsey]

Imagine being that unsure about something you say you’re so positive about.

[@Letts_prey]

“I can’t describe stuff, therefore god” - Billy 2021 PS: “If..... er.... so.... .....”

[@paulgemme6056]

Atheists offer no hope, just death. Is that because they are afraid of what might be on other side? Hell is real and heaven is real. Just because someone wants to and does stick his or her head in the sand doesn’t make the reality of heaven and hell go away. That’s what atheists do. Atheists mind set- You die, bye, bye see you no more. God’s/Jesus’ mind set-believe (have faith) and you will be given the gift of God, eternal life (to know me). No religion needed.

[@Letts_prey]

@@paulgemme6056 Outline here irrefutable evidence for everything you’ve stated above. Remember though, quoting a source, does not validate that source. Please go ahead.

[@paulgemme6056]

@@Letts_prey You can't see gravity, but you know it's there. Just like knowing God/Jesus. The gift of eternal life (to know God/Jesus) is offered to anyone who believes. The greatest gift ever offered.. No religion needed. Just faith, faith alone. No quoting allowed.

[@Letts_prey]

@@paulgemme6056 Yes, you can measure gravity. You can see the consequences of gravity. We are absolutely certain from measurements and computations that objects accelerate downwards at 9.8 m/s squared on our earth. You can jump up, and be positive that you’ll come back down. You can observe the consequences of gravitational forces acting on mass relative objects beyond our planet, and make precise calculations of trajectories. What on earth has that definable, quantifiable and definitive force have to do with your feelings about something, about your ‘faith’ in something that has no definitive absolutes? ‘Faith’, so called because it’s not knowledge, not based on facts.

[@mynyasabut]

4:09 Billy is godsmacked by the shear beauty of Mat"s clarity and reasoning which is beyond Billy's comprehention here by shown to him by the greater power of the atheist experience.

[@douglasdavis8395]

Ergo, (ironically), atheists are gods! Checkmate, someone!

[@mynyasabut]

@@douglasdavis8395 good point

[@powbobs]

Pretty sure Billy can’t comprehend a plethora of things.

[@hakureikura9052]

dammit, dont use that word to theists like billy, he can't understand words like plethora and comprehend... dont use hard words on them mate, the last two braincells they have will overheat...

[@fishdaddy35]

If you want me to believe in something, you damn well better be able to define it. It’s not “nitpicking.”

[@UTU49]

[I wrote this before reading your comment. I hadn't decided whether I wanted to post it or not, but I'll post it here.] If you are claiming that there is a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent creator, who is also the same entity described in the Bible, then I don't think you can say that ANY question is nit-picking. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I can’t think of a claim more extraordinary than claiming that you know that the universe has a creator and that you know things about that creator... based on a book written well over a 1000 years ago.

[@n0w3lly90]

Maybe it is it the Music Confusion creating Leprechauns? 😂

[@brucebaker810]

Perhaps the Leprechaun is the helicopter hawk.

[@dhwyll]

So we're just going to ignore music theory and psychology and declare that "music is beyond our understanding"? So John Williams is god because he understands how to use music to invoke awe and wonderment in people? Music is made by humans. How can a being that is incapable of understanding music create music that is beyond understanding?

[@tetsujin_144]

I think the argument would be that skilled musicians are channeling a phenomenon that is still beyond them. They may have skills that help them do this but they didn't create the phenomenon of music, rather just something that employs that phenomenon. To some extent that is true as all artists learn from and build upon other work. No one musician invented everything in their music. But something doesn't need to be supernatural for it to be beyond our understanding. It can just be something that's hard to understand.

[@dhwyll]

@@tetsujin_144 That insults all the work that musicians put into their craft. As a musician myself, I understand exactly what it is that I am doing. Yes, there is a creative aspect to it, but you then work on that creation to mold it into the right form so that it speaks what it is you want to say. There’s a reason that there is this thing called “music theory..” We actually do understand what it is we’re doing. Indeed, musicians didn’t create “the phenomenon of music.” What does that have to do with anything? That’s like saying that because a vending machine didn’t invent the quarter, that somehow quarters are “beyond understanding.” Indeed, no one musician invented everything in their music. What does that have to do with anything? That’s like saying that because a carpenter didn’t make his own saw, that somehow means saws are “beyond understanding.” You come back around to it at the end: Just because someone else finds something “hard to understand” doesn’t mean everybody else has that same limitation. The fact that people have a sense of wonder and awe doesn’t mean there is anything supernatural going on. That’s just the argument of “Look at the trees!”

[@PierredeCur]

@@dhwyll very good argument. I had that experience with poetry when I decided to become a poet after a life dedicated to coding and was astonished that my verses written under some magical inspiration without any knowledge of the of prosodia and versification were harshly criticized... However, I did my homework and understood eventually that they were right and it took me *years* to learn the technique...

[@jdsartre9520]

wonderment why not awement?

[@Kate-uo5zv]

I am a musician and have studied music theory all my life and indeed music was created by single individuals way back. Consider the scales for example. Every culture around the world uses a different scale. And I can understand them all due to studying them and applying them to my music.

[@quantumquestthebillionaire1527]

Oh dear, Billy needs to get a check up from the neck up? Thankfully he’s not what the average person is like in the Uk .. He’s an anomaly…😂

[@EinKerl3554]

I love my god, he is kind, loving, devoted and I can't imagine my life without him. Whups, typo, I meant "dog". ;)

[@fakereality5204]

Dog...

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

Myyyyyyyyy dog is an awesome dog….

[@astonmartin4360]

As an Englishman I apologise for Billy.We aren't all that stupid.

[@emperordalektardis]

Thank God for that.

[@daistoke1314]

As a Welshman may I say, yes you are. (Only joking, maybe)

[@1harperaj]

Stone-age man, I don`t understand thunder, so it must be god, how primitive this debate has been

[@DadeMurphy666]

2:28 "greater power"

[@FangsOnDisplay]

Can someone please explain to cartoon Hugh Grant that music and art are made by people. Not only can we explain and describe music, we invented it!

[@tetsujin_144]

20:01 - "You're claiming to eff the ineffable, and describe the indescribable" ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

[@steveneagan3953]

It boils down to: Anything I don't understand must be gods doing. It's the god of the gaps all over again. It's no different than the ppl hundreds of years ago equating volcanoes erupting to god being angry and rainbows appearing to god being happy.

[@martifingers]

Not quite Steven, I don't think. Billy would probably not believe that the lack of our knowledge about the truth of the Riemann hypothesis or the nature of Dark Matter is evidence for God. Science has shrunk the areas in which God can exist but seems to have got stumped by what broadly is the nature of consciousness. I don't agree with Billy about how he is approaching it but like many I am not sure we have the right conceptual tools to address this hard problem. Others think differently of course!

[@steveneagan3953]

@@martifingers It's better, in my opinion, to simply say "I don't know" or to actually investigate things then to make assertions about some higher power. His inability to explain how music makes him feel therefore god is in my mind equivalent to anyone not understanding anything they can't explain therefore god. To them anything unexplainable is "god works in mysterious ways" and is left at that. I've never in my life made any assumptions when it comes to unexplained phenomenon. To me we just don't know...yet.

[@martifingers]

@@steveneagan3953 Hi Steven. It was a little difficult to make sense of what Billy was proposing but being generous it could possibly be something like "I cannot explain these powerful feelings , they seem to not be adequately explained by conventional psychological mechanisms and they do seem to hint at something transcendent. Let's assume some sort of "higher power"." Not much of a thesis I admit but other explanations like some varieties of panpsychism could also be used. My point was that I am willing to suspend final judgement (sic!) to see where such models lead. I totally agree that its OK - nay essential to say we don't know. But that doesn't mean that we cannot adopt provisional models of reality - "real" scientists do this all the time. The problem, as I see it, for psycho-social reasons we find this much more difficult to do in the area of religion and metaphysics. A creed for instance kinda loses its power if it started "Just as a working hypothesis, I propose that God, the Father Almighty created the heaven and earth..."

[@martifingers]

​@Scott Scotty Hi Scott. I appreciate what you are saying but there are some subtle metaphysics going on here. I wonder for example what an 18th century rationalist would make of the naturalism implied by quantum mechanics and relativity. Would you not agree that they might struggle to adapt their naturalist world view to that of a modern physicist? My point is that what we mean by naturalism has changed - a lot! I also think that observations and theory are not as separate as you may be assuming. For example suppose someone has a series of strange dreams which have some real world correlates (eg the person wakes up to a song on the radio that they were dreaming about.) This experience is not predictable but it the lyrics of the songs are (or can be interpreted as ) spiritually important. A naturalist explanation would cite coincidence, the law of large numbers, confirmation bias, Texas sharpshooter fallacy etc. etc. The alternative would seem to be a complete re-write of causality and consciousness....IOW the phenomenon does not exist, there is nothing there. But what has happened in this example is a subtle shift from "naturalist explanations cannot provide a mechanism for this " to "this phenomenon is definitely non-existent". What I am wondering is, is there be a model which might? In much the same way that Planck's assumption that energy was quantised (for which there was no known mechanism AT THE TIME) was eventually found to be warranted despite being "out there" at the time. Perhaps these are not the best examples - I am neither a professional philosopher or scientist.

[@martysmovies7892]

"What's got Billy so spooked?" "Can't say Matt. It's that damn nose of his. It's weird."

[@sharadsharma4833]

What is it? Billy? What the hell is wrong with you?

[@antoniojones6256]

Billy, don't be a hero; just admit you have no credible evidence for the existence of your imaginary friend.

[@bonescheffel7795]

Matt shredded his argument into Paper Lace.

[@timsmith530]

I went to a Church service and sat in the front row when they had a Prophet there . I had done something horrible 20 years before that no one ever knew except me . It cost me my health and the Prophet spoke it out and completely astonished me. How can anyone know that ? It's not public knowledge. Its my dark secret. You want proof ? Let someone speak to your dark secrets and thoughts and tell me the supernatural don't exist! I'll never forget! There is your proof

[@bct8881]

"Feelings,nothing more than feelings" - Morris Albert

[@MasterSpade]

The christian 'god' is so All Powerful that he needs callers like that to prove him....... wow!

[@NuncNuncNuncNunc]

I have proof, but your problem is that you want proof. Billy: There is no way for a human to understand music and the way it moves us John Williams: Hold my beer

[@Kate-uo5zv]

Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner hold my wine.

[@TheMkoose]

How does beauty come from a greater power? My only concepts are beauty either are experienced within my own mind, or with other people. Very human. And if the greater power is incomprehensible, how does that mean we can comprehend beauty because of it? Befuddled was the right word.

[@deacymusic]

Incredulity is an acceptable human trait. MOVE ON BILLY.....

[@qwadratix]

Billy is literally unable to think for himself. He's been given a 'reason for everything' and a bunch of rituals to fix his mind on whenever he has a moment to spare from the absolute necessities of life. I can guarantee that his response to this conversation will be to go away with a vague sense of discomfort that he'll wash away with prayer and a comforting visit to his church to ask for guidance. No wonder the bible talks about separating the sheep from the goats. Sheep are so easy to herd.

[@BruceCarroll]

Composers know how music works. They know what beats will make you want to get up and dance, which timbres will evoke sadness or fear, or make your heart race. Film score composers use this knowledge regularly.

[@Kate-uo5zv]

They know which scales create these effects.

[@LOwens-xf8yo]

Churches are masters of manipulating emotions with music!

[@garybuseyactorandlover]

Easily one of the more infuriating calls recently.

[@francelaferriere6106]

But, but, but, this guy has a British accent! So, surely what he says must make sense, right?

[@garybuseyactorandlover]

​@@francelaferriere6106 Well, obviously... Everything sounds more credible when delivered by a Land Rover mechanic!

[@francelaferriere6106]

@@garybuseyactorandlover Obviously.

[@whatwasisaying]

It amazes me that Matt can be so laser focused on the logic, or lack there of, of an argument 99.9% of the time while I could do that maybe 10% of the time.

[@scamchan]

Theists always can make their GOD fit into any and all categories that defy logic and reason. When asked to provide evidence of such claims. You got to have faith!!

[@garyskinner2422]

Music appeals to our senses and emotions and often reminds us of certain places and people and feeling in the past.

[@willdwyer6782]

The early evolution of modern music theory began in medieval Catholicism, which is why a lot of music terminology is either Latin or Italian. And it's also probably why Billy gets a warm fuzzy from listening to his favorite tune.

[@TH3-MONK]

Also, probably the reason several hymns are sung throughout a typical church service.

[@AlDunbar]

That is probably also why there seems to be, for some, a strong association between God and the joy of music. As a young Christian I felt that way. And I still feel moved by those powerful Christmas carols accompanied by a powerful pipe organ. It tends to remind me of simpler, happier times when I was a kid. But the association with god is just a dim memory.

[@Kate-uo5zv]

Music has been with us the entire history of humans. Way before Christianity, way back in the dawn of human evolution.

[@willdwyer6782]

@@Kate-uo5zv sound detection is key to survival. We're instinctively tuned to physically respond to different sounds in different ways. Goosebumps as a reaction to sound is due to a genetic fossil that all mammals share. When you see a cat posturing defensively with its fur puffed up and standing on end to look bigger and more intimidating, you're looking at a case of feline goosebumps. As a vocalist and a cat lover, I've found that singing certain notes can provoke a defensive response from my cats. Music theorists started studying this phenomenon and came up with a system of making sound that evokes emotional responses as a way of putting people in a hypnotic state for the pulpit preaching.

[@Jashtvorak]

People can see music, people can taste numbers. Brain.

[@reasonrules4165]

I suspect that Billy is a vicar or lay preacher. It’s not only the US that have these nutters, we have them in the UK too.

[@MichaelJohnson-kq7qg]

Religious people also 'nitpick' about a definition of god. Otherwise there'd only be one denomination, of only one religion.

[@puckerings]

Does this guy really think that people are greater than black holes? Because we can describe and observe black holes, and according to his assertion that means we cannot be greater than black holes. Part of the problem, of course, is that "greater than" in this context is entirely meaningless, because there is no standard to measure it against. But put all of humanity versus a black hole, and the black hole's going to win.

[@pdcdesign9632]

Is this guy Billy the voice of HAL 9000.? I’m sorry Dave, I don’t have enough information.

[@whooyou765]

Matt hates to be interrupted but sure loves to do it to others.... I’m an atheist/agnostic and agree with most of what Matt says But is attitude and aggression is off putting and makes us look bad

[@onkelgroen]

How can he make you look bad? Matt is Matt, not you. Unless you subscribe to the common theist belief that atheism is a worldview/organisation/whatever?

[@stuffedgrubs]

Yeah Billy it's called the matrix 🤣🤣🤣

[@richardp7116]

I can't explain it, thus goddidit

[@FourDeuce01]

Something tells me Billy’s favorite food is WAFFLES.😜

[@Ryan18181]

On behalf of the UK, I I'm really sorry that the theist that stepped forward would put the incoherent, stuttery rambling of your average Hugh Grant charachter to shame.

[@IxodesPersulcatus]

"Accidentally dropped" is almost too good to not make a mean joke.

[@MovieMakingMan]

The first cavemen who beat on hollow logs to communicate was technically ‘music’ and it had nothing to do with a god. Those cavemen used beating logs to communicate with other tribes. I’m sure there were creative cavemen who took beating of logs to a new level. There were probably a lot of Ringos back then.

[@douglasdavis8395]

Buddy Richstone, I believe it was he who first used two logs of differing sizes which produced different sounds.

[@MovieMakingMan]

@@douglasdavis8395 Was that the Buddy Flintstone who lived 2.4 million BC or the Buddy who lived 2.5 million BC? 😀 When did Richstone play? My friend is Native American and plays guitar, flute and drums (from a log) during his performances. I’d like to hear Buddy Richstone.

[@douglasdavis8395]

@@MovieMakingMan - I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my story. It was the senior Richstone of 2.5. His son, 2.4, is credited with inventing the bass drum after a successful woolly mammoth hunt of an especially corpulent specimen. I believe Purdue is the current owner of the skin.

[@ENFM]

As a former pro musician I had the displeasure of dealing with musicians who thought music was a godly experience and performance was their “calling.” Without exception they showed up late, didn’t help with set up or breakdown, and were prima dona’s. They always expected others to carry their weight. And yes, this guy doesn’t understand music. We know very well how music works and how to manipulate it to achieve an audiences emotional responses. Jeebuz welp.

[@ursidae97]

This man's argument was mystical arm waving

[@joeydupre6153]

Exactly!! No facts.....just feelings and ambiguous words.

[@michaelogrady1641]

Billy is using the, " It's all beyond our understanding" defense. He could have Meowed for the whole time he was speaking, and made as much sense.

[@nuffflavor]

Billy is as simple as his name.

[@iveseen1]

It's hilarious ,these theists making ridiculous statements, struggling to try and prove their is a god.lf god did turn up he certainly wouldn't be to popular after two thousand years of illusive indifference and immoral behavior.

[@ejflor1313]

17:09 that was a perfect moment for him to drop the Billy Madison speech on Billy

[@ahh_yes_mr_bax]

What a profoundly confused individual. I dont think he is dumb but he definitely isnt a genius.

[@LittleLances]

As a Britain myself, I can only apologise on behalf of my fellow countrymen. Most of us , thankfully are atheist

[@azounx]

Do you mean Briton? 😉

[@LittleLances]

@@azounx yes 😌

[@dukeemzworth3005]

You are good, but not a great Briton.

[@LittleLances]

@@dukeemzworth3005 makes no sense

[@alanhobden8847]

On behalf of rational brits I would like to apologise for embarrassments like Billy.

[@alanmacification]

Don't feel bad. I'm Canadian and have to apologize for Justin Bieber, Nickleback, and Jordan Peterson. Sorry, sorry, and so sorry. . .eh.

[@dilldathrill9010]

Me too

[@grantallard]

Subjective events such as emotions, feelings and sensations that YOU experience, are often impossible to find a word, or words for, in your own language(or others).

[@scamchan]

"IF" there is a greater power - Define where this power is??

[@robertallan6373]

The sun.

[@chriscarpenter1420]

Music can't be understood? Then don't I feel like a fool for studying and teaching music for the last 50 years.

[@artistjoh]

Just because Billy can’t understand the nature of beauty in music that is extremely sad. I don’t have any problem processing the beauty in music such as an opera by Verdi. I understand it by simply loving it, and appreciating the wonderful patterns of sound that resonate within the deep emotional center of the hipocampus. It is a phenomenon that causes the release of hormonal chemicals that give a feeling of euphoria and astonishment that Verdi could visualize those sounds and words and translate them into musical notation on a page. If Billy chooses to find answers in some nebulous idea of a higher power then he will forever miss out on letting himself go into the depths of musical appreciation. His retreat from reality into his god delusion is the very reason that he cannot process beauty as an emotional/experiential characteristic of the human brain.

[@suburban-vampire]

The main takeaway I'm left with is that Mick Gordon is canonically a demon prince with magical powers. That's how he gets his guitars to sound like that.

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

The real question is, why theists don't seem to care about proper definitions..... especially for something that is potentially so important. It's almost as if they bloody well know it is a fantasy...... Instead of 'if if if if if if if', Show me one actual scientific study that Actually tries to define, hypothesise and prove a god.... there isn't one, right?

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

@Scott Scotty unsurprisingly lol. What i find telling is that they are in a state of waiting. If you were the church with it's billions, i would spend a fortune trying to prove a god. But they don't. They are just sitting on their asses waiting. I reckon the top of the religious food chain knows damn well its a story. But one where they can make a lot of money on.

[@ddy7323]

@@CyberBeep_kenshi they wouldn't do it honestly anyway, ever seen the title "prize winning scientist says evolution is makes no sense" or something, a religious organisation gave a prize to a scientist just to give themselves credibility.

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

@@ddy7323 ye it's crazy

[@dx1450]

It's funny how Christians want us to believe in a god they can't even define.

[@DarkAlkaiser]

He gave up was exactly right lol didn't even bother to Google. There's a multi billion dollar industry that relies on knowing what music people like and why XD As well... Was Tchaikovsky god? He made music that moves me, so was he a higher power? How else could he do it? XD

[@oldmanjenkins38]

One of the things I greatly respect regarding Mat, being an atheist myself, is his humility and understanding of ignorance; admitting once’s ignorance and the search for knowledge to best understand reality based upon the data we have now with the scientific method of discovery. His answer of the best explanation we have now… What these theists and deists have is hubris. The belief they already “understand” when in fact they most assuredly do not. Religion stifles people searching for explanations. Religion will give “answers” that explain nothing. It is analogous to responding to a question by Mat with “because.”

[@bombadilly]

Should of dropped this sad broken record at minute 3

[@jdsartre9520]

edit it again... should've, not of

[@bombadilly]

@@jdsartre9520 lol you must be sad and lonely to be playing grammar police on youtube

[@jdsartre9520]

@@bombadilly keep projecting your situation onto others so you feel better about your life

[@bombadilly]

@@jdsartre9520 oh yea, you got me. Keep it up out there with the earth shattering comments. Thanks for the waste of time.

[@tconnelly8]

It's like HP Lovecraft wrote a theist's script.

[@lotus160]

As a Brit I would like to apologise for Billy. There are a lot of us are able to make coherent arguments! His "argument", from what I could make of it, was a mixture of a rehash of God of the Gaps and assertions! Nice one Billy - thanks for embarrassing us !

[@BillyBong]

Some animals experience music too.....