Bishop Barron on J.R.R. Tolkien, Evangelist

Friends, with the new "Tolkien" film out in theaters, I wanted to share this clip from our documentary, “CATHOLICISM: The New Evangelization,” where we reflected on J.R.R. Tolkien as not just a great author, but a master evangelist.
“CATHOLICISM: The New Evangelization”: bit.ly/2JxdHF9

[@ItsOveeer]

I miss these popular culture analysis videos. Hope to see more in the future

[@katherineneville5304]

Read his poem “Mythopoeia” which he wrote for CSLewis after the talk on the real divinity of Jesus. He considered his writing to be a vocation

[@SH-lb1nu]

Mr. Tolkien proved you can create fantasy fiction that could gain mass popularity on its own merit. Without the smut and nonsense we see today in the genre. God bless his soul and message. Mr. Tolkien stories from the similarian to LoTr enriched my childhood and my imagination into adulthood immensely. Thank you Mr. Tolkien and Bishop Baron for sharing.

[@VersoLaltoProductions]

I'd recommend Joseph Pierce's book "Frodo's Journey." It talks about the Catholic themes of Lord of the Rings, how to understand that with relation to Tolkien's stated dislike of allegory, and how Tolkien wove some absurdly subtle stuff into his books. eg: Lembas. Waybread. Viaticum. Bread of Life. The Eucharist.

[@drcardinalli]

Thanks for the great recommendation!!!

[@VersoLaltoProductions]

You bet!

[@ernestleong476]

Very interesting. I'm a screenwriter and was trying to write an adventure story with Christian themes within it, but wasn't sure I was doing it right. In fact, I was concerned I was perpetuating more evil by writing it the way I did. Now I realize all I was doing was re-shaping the Lord of the Rings story. I still may be doing it wrong, but at least I'm willing to go back to it and try again. Thanks and God bless you!

[@rachaelchavez8766]

In one of my college classes a girl in my communications class was always very hostile towards Christianity and she wasn't shy about voicing it out in group discussions. She was also a Lord of the Rings fan. And one day I told her that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and the Lord of the rings relfects his Christian worldview. Boy oh boy she argued with me, and said that he was not and the Lord of the Rings has nothing to do with Christianity. I said fair enough, maybe the book has nothing to do with Christianity. Perhaps it is just an amazing story he conjured up, and that he somehow separated his Catholism from his most influential writing. And I told her to reread the books again but this time familiarize herself with the major themes of the bible. I believe that you cannot escape your heavenly Father, you could convince yourself that He's not there or that He is not a good father, and what that girl failed to see was the things she admired most came from Him.

[@Eowyn3Pride]

...nothing to do with Christianity...🤣🤣🤣❤❤❤

[@grosbeak6130]

Tolkien said explicitly that he did not like allegory in literature and chided CS Lewis on that point. An example here is the bishop saying that Frodo is a Christ figure. Well Frodo completely failed at the last moment and if it wasn't for Gollum that ring would not have been thrown into Mount Doom to be destroyed. You see folks Tolkien was not into allegory and yet the bishop here is reducing tolkien's work to just that.

[@rachaelchavez8766]

Indeed you're right, he wanted to distinguish himself from Lewis. They were good friends CS Lewis and Tolkien. My point was that his Catholicism came out in his writing as does any person with deep convinctions and worldviews. It naturally reflects in your work whether you are intending to or not. I told the girl that Tolkien was very very Catholic and I'm quite sure that his Catholic worldview played a pivotal part in his writing, just as Tolstoy in War and Peace and Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. I don't think he was intending it to be exactly allegory like The Chronicles of Narnia as CS Lewis did. I think parallels came out naturally in his writing because he was so devoutly catholic.

[@imalive4u169]

Awesome choice Fr. Barron I love J.R.R. Tolkien's works. He based his stories from his time serving in the British Army during WWI and from his Catholic faith. His mother was a devout Catholic before she died she requested a Priest to adopt her sons, they were raised by a Catholic Priest. It was J.R.R. Tolkien whom helped convert C.S. Lewis an Athiest to Christianity.

[@antonsinistaj4216]

Keep up the great work Bishop, your podcast and KZbin channel have taught me so much over the last year, thank you from the bottom of my heart. God bless!

[@janierodriguez3017]

Thank you, Bishop Barron for this great explanation about Tolkien and the Lord of the Ring. 👍💕💕💕💯💯💯

[@oambitiousone7100]

Have been a fan of Tolkien, really, since I was four and owned The Hobbit record book (circa late 70s). The movies reeled me in to reading the LOTR, and his Catholicism is part of what has pointed me toward exploring this faith.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

Tyou know the saying the book is better than the movie? this is particularly true with Jackson's LOTR. Why couldn't At Least follow the story line?

[@antoniusrusticus383]

Tolkien also understood the value of language & tradition; despite the "spirit of Vatican 2," he prayed in Latin at Divine Liturgy. I would appreciate an authentic Tolkien spirit in our beautiful Church to evangelize us.

[@mommyseastar5776]

Wonderful literature and a perfect example about how to engage and communicate the faith to people today! Thank you Bishop Barron for talking about Tolkien and his brilliant work!

[@santiagobenjamin4946]

The fact that I have not been able to read his book "Lord of the rings" makes me to feel yet accomplished in life. Thanks Bishop Barron

[@marypinakat8594]

Same here.

[@marypinakat8594]

Thanks to everyone.

[@stevemcgroob4446]

Whats stopping you?

[@marypinakat8594]

@@stevemcgroob4446 Getting at it.

[@marypinakat8594]

@Wallace Michael Fantastic every bit. Yeah, Google has it.

[@terryasmus3925]

Thank you Bishop Barron for all your great commentaries.

[@oambitiousone7100]

For more on the Catholic influence, read Tolkien's Sacramental Vision (Craig Bernthal).

[@drcardinalli]

Thanks!!!

[@anniebanderet]

Oh to be there at the Eagle and Child (have visited several times) with you, speaking of the Inklings! Heaven! I love Lewis, Williams, Sayers, Eliot...And Tolkien!! Thank you, Bishop Barron!

[@Eowyn3Pride]

❤❤❤I have a desire to learn more through scripture, BECAUSE of Tolkien's literary works. 😁 Favorite...subject...ever!!!!!

[@isabellew989]

Great video! I saw the first movie as a senior in high school and loved it.

[@SuperRiya16]

Wow! This was so enlightening i never knew this that these are books written by a Catholic evangelist looking forward to reading them now!

[@spoke2639]

Gandalf is one of my altimeter favorite characters. I love Tolkien’s version of a wizard as an angelic savant of god disguised as an old man. I also see a lot of parallels between Gandalf and the Norse God Odin, which reminds us that while Tolkien was indeed a Catholic, he also loved Norse Mythology and I think in his work he drew a lot of connections between Christianity and Norse myth.

[@micklumsden3956]

Of course, I love the character of Gandalf. But we should have our eyes open to his failings, and declined to deify him. Gandalf was far from a perfect guy. He failed to get along side, the noble Denothor. And neither he, nor Aragorn were able to embrace Boromir and keep him from falling. Am I my brothers keeper? Yes!

[@jsking306]

Outstanding! Very interesting. Thanks...

[@marypinakat8594]

Thank you Bishop Barron and Brandon, this is amazing. In your pairing up here there is this new beauty and new 'power'. I pray that eventually Word On Fire will get rid of the 'rings' of the ugly in Catholic Social Media.

[@TolkienStudy]

Wow! More please! Nature abhors a vacuum! Great job Brandon as well! So cool!

[@marypinakat8594]

Oh yes.

[@oswaldspengler1823]

video length is 4:20. break out the old toby!

[@paoloromolini]

Amazing video, thank you!

[@Grahzzyvtvlog]

great insight a classic story

[@nariko47]

I really enjoyed this video 🤗 Thank you!!

[@themorbidmole9247]

Bishop Barron you should make a video on Eastern Orthodoxy and the Great Schism, I think it might be the only topic you haven't touched upon 😀

[@victoriawoodring1824]

Man, why did this video some how make me cry?

[@marypinakat8594]

Indeed there is something special about it. You are right.

[@victoriawoodring1824]

@@marypinakat8594 I know right? I guess there is some kind of incredible beauty to truth. And the amazing way Tolkien shared this truth through the art literature! I don't know it kinda just stirs up my heart in a way.

[@marypinakat8594]

@@victoriawoodring1824 God Bless You! You indeed are a great soul. Cheers!

[@victoriawoodring1824]

@@marypinakat8594 God bless you too! Thank you you're so sweet! You're an incredible soul!

[@isabellew989]

You're not alone.

[@Ivy-xs8lz]

Great analysis. 😊

[@stevesalinas8424]

Father, you should consider posting your content on Rokfin. Also, we gotta find a way to get you on Joe Rogan! Thank you for all you do.

[@neosporran]

Original sin and the Christly roles of prophet, priest, and king are generally Christian doctrines not limited to Roman Catholic theology, but one will find references to distinctly Catholic ideas if reading LOTR from that mindset. Tolkien's work is consonant not only with the broad range of essentially Christian thought but also with the moral inclinations of non-believers, which makes it a great baseline for discussions about God with even ardent atheists.

[@ravenbutaya]

I love this

[@claudesigma3784]

Some people call it "Jesus smuggling".

[@dourtan6928]

Love that term.

[@astrol4b]

I've always wondered what is the deep meaning of lovecraftian literature since it is kind of specular to Tolkien stories. It seems to me that it describes the horror of godless world.

[@dourtan6928]

Good point raised. i think HP was such a recluse in Baltimore that no one has tried to pierce that veil?

[@astrol4b]

@@dourtan6928 the most prominent heir of lovecraft is Thomas Ligotti and he plainly explained his world view which is that God doesn't exist, life is a curse, human life is evolution going wrong etc. Pretty much what the main character of true detective first season thinks about life. But I think there are very prominent authors of the genre that don't have this bleak view of life, but are fascinated to explore these fictionary worlds that are without hope and redemption.

[@t2bzofree4798]

Bishop, Please review the new movie. I’d love to hear what you think.

[@vegadog3053]

Good video Bishop. One question for the sake of discussion; does Tolkien's stories share truth, or Catholicism ? Where does one end and the begin?

[@leamarie6039]

I always knew that Mr.Tolkien in his subtle ways, injecting christian morality in his work. I always admire him for his craft yet his greatest ability is to influence the people in every generation that a bible story can literally be a favorite storyline of all time.

[@blank557]

In that context, I always thought of Galadriel as the Virgin Mary. Saruman strikes me as a Judas figure. The Palantir he treasured was akin of 30 pieces of silver, and lost not unlike when Judas cast the coins from himself. Elrond John the Baptist, who helps point the way, but knowing his and his peoples time is over, and must diminish to make the way for the race of men. The Stewart of Gondor a possible stand-in for Herod seeking to maintain his kingdom by refusing to accept Aragorn as the rightful king, sacrificing his sons on impossible missions for his own sake. Or as a Pilate, washing his hands of everything, abandoning the defense of Gondor by committing suicide. Golem as a figure for Cain, cursed to wander the earth forever for the murder of his friend, yet protected and preserved by provenience for a unknown purpose. Or maybe not. It's a fun mental exercise to see if Tolkien, despite is abhorrence of writing allegory, (Unlike C.S. Lewis) subconsciously superimposed other biblical themes upon his characters.

[@Eowyn3Pride]

To add, Boromir as the bad thief and Faramir as the good thief, as they both tried to take the ring from Frodo...Lembas as a symbol of the Holy Eucharist and Gandalf's ring to symbolize confirmation and the Holy Spirit...it's a long list!😉

[@clattereffect]

The Silmarillion is another great work of Tolkien allot of Old Testament references in that book. i.e. Genesis, The fall, Rebellion, etc.

[@brandonluker3660]

I concur, reading it right now, so far it really does remind me of Genesis

[@grosbeak6130]

Tolkien said explicitly that he did not like allegory in literature and chided CS Lewis on that point. An example here is the bishop saying that Frodo is a Christ figure. Well Frodo completely failed at the last moment and if it wasn't for Gollum that ring would not have been thrown into Mount Doom to be destroyed. You see folks Tolkien was not into allegory and yet the bishop here is reducing tolkien's work to just that.

[@robcampbell3118]

I have to agree with you. Frodo ultimately failed to give up the ring and so cannot be a Christ figure. In one of his letters Tolkien said that the Christian meaning there was the virtue of mercy. If Frodo had not spared Gollum's life when Sam wanted to kill him then of course Gollum would not have been there for the fight at Mount Doom and the ring would not have been destroyed.

[@Catholic-Redpilled-Spaniard]

Nice!! Finally

[@mariab.774]

@Catholic Spaniard You're everywhere

[@Catholic-Redpilled-Spaniard]

@@mariab.774 THis is a Bishop Robert Barron video. What the hell did you expect, Maria?

[@mariab.774]

@Catholic Spaniard Haha, I also think he is GREAT. All the videos I have watched from him left me just amazed. And I always agree with him 100%

[@Catholic-Redpilled-Spaniard]

@@mariab.774 Agreed, except with agreeing with him 100%. The Bishop does need to adress some accusations of disrespect of doctrine in so far as Hell is concerned.

[@mariab.774]

@Catholic Spaniard I don't understand. Did he say Hell doesn't exist? Don't think he did

[@Anna-tj7mp]

Hmm. Tolkein said it was a Catholic book. But I doubt that he wanted to sneak a message in. He said he disliked and distrusted allegory, but liked a good story well told. I think the book flowed out of who he was: he was not trying to communicate his faith in an accessible way. A subtle distinction but important I think.

[@RikiTikiTaviXVX]

Tolkien was not a friend of allegory as he stated himself. He thought allegory destroyed storytelling. So LOTR obviously is not a conscious attempt to evangelize. It is however only natural that Tolkiens deepest held (Christian) believes about man and existence would shine through in his stories. Stories have to be true to the story teller, otherwise they are no good.

[@De-Nigma]

Kind of: the allegory he didn't like tends to be the more specific stuff: the ring is nuclear weapons; Isengard is the Industrial Revolution, Mordor is Stalin's Russia, etc. That idea that you can precisely map details of the story onto one real world idea that you could describe just as well using an argument, that's allegory as he meant it. It's one of the reasons he was less fond of Narnia, interestingly: Aslan is exactly that kind of Allegory. A lot of commenters don't do Tolkien any favours, it must be said (at least I don't think they do) when they start interpreting the details of the books. It's much more interesting hearing him on himself. You can tell he knows his Catholicism's there and that is kind of deliberate, but he's not just dressing it up in a story either. He can say it a lot better than I can, as with most things. But deliberately having a Catholic tone, or a Catholic atmosphere wouldn't be an allegory, but would still be deliberate. I think that's the best way of reading him.

[@Eowyn3Pride]

Well said. His beliefs and faith were intertwined and permeated in his stories.

[@astrol4b]

@@De-Nigma let's say that lotr treat many archetypal themes in the form of myth so in some sense in a raw form. So Tolkien would not make an allegory of the atomic bomb, because his message is more universal but one could very well see the atomic bomb as the one ring, or the political power as the one ring (I see it even more fitting).

[@grosbeak6130]

Tolkien said explicitly that he did not like allegory in literature and chided CS Lewis on that point. An example here is the bishop saying that Frodo is a Christ figure. Well Frodo completely failed at the last moment and if it wasn't for Gollum that ring would not have been thrown into Mount Doom to be destroyed. You see folks Tolkien was not into allegory and yet the bishop here is reducing tolkien's work to just that.

[@grosbeak6130]

Daniel Pettingale Tolkien said explicitly that he did not like allegory in literature and chided CS Lewis on that point. An example here is the bishop saying that Frodo is a Christ figure. Well Frodo completely failed at the last moment and if it wasn't for Gollum that ring would not have been thrown into Mount Doom to be destroyed. You see folks Tolkien was not into allegory and yet the bishop here is reducing tolkien's work to just that.

[@andrewlamb3585]

Tolkien helped lead me back to the Lord!

[@Happy_HIbiscus]

😊😊😊😊🌺🌺🌺

[@lcronovt]

Greatest catholic, thank you Tolkien

[@dourtan6928]

Like Narnia Chronicles by Anglican CS. Lewis.

[@jkellyid]

Christian themes have shown through fiction to be what we across cultures find to be the proper/right narrative. All good narratives explore some aspect of catholic theology.

[@anharmyenone]

The ring allows one person to have absolute power over the souls of everyone. Yes, that would be a bad thing.

[@Phrigmeat]

psst... For Tolkien/Lewis/storytelling/poetry/music lovers, rabbitroom.com is pretty cool!

[@anniebanderet]

Evangelizing the imagination, yes!

[@jamieyoung9392]

I hope you downed a pint to the memory of the Professor!

[@tomsaltsman]

The gentleman says, "...most people are not naturally attracted to that mode of teaching." Right on. That's exactly the problem: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but …they shall...be turned toward fables." -II Timothy 4:3-4. Real Christians do't like a watered own gospel any more than a watery coffee, they like espresso. They love the Word straight from the Master's mouth.

[@BishopBarron]

No way! That’s entirely too cynical.

[@tomsaltsman]

@@BishopBarron Me or the scripture?

[@Eowyn3Pride]

Show me a passage in the Lord of the Ring's that is "watered down biblical text". If this is all you see, you have not scratched the tip of the Catholicism Iceberg that Tolkien had so masterfully contructed. His inspiration came from daily Mass attendance and the Holy Eucharist. Where does your argument come from?

[@tomsaltsman]

@@Eowyn3Pride I don't deny that this undisputed fable I've never read (and was never commanded by God to read though I saw the film) may promote certain truths. The best fiction always does. But no fiction can substitute for knowledge of sacred scripture. As St. Jerome said, "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." Pope Francis has reaffirmed this. I have a dear cousin who is 50 y.o., goes to daily mass, is a big fan of Tolkien's fable, but won't study scripture. He is missing so much, I fear for his soul. Being a CPA, he didn't even know that usury is condemned in scripture numerous times. The first part of the mass exalts God's Word which can always be read in private. Good luck finding a Catholic who does. Such disrespect is not true faith.

[@Eowyn3Pride]

@@tomsaltsman Then, continue to pray for him. Or Read the book and help him to find the scriptural links, in order to increase the love of the Scripture in both of you!😊

[@davidarcudi230]

You can't undetstand Tolkien if you don't understand his Catholicism

[@csweet08]

The idea that Tolkien was trying to sneak his Catholicism into his fantasy like a covert evangelist...may be overstating things. I suspect he would take issue with that idea

[@BishopBarron]

He admitted it! It’s not some vague “idea” that I have.

[@grossepointemichigan]

Read in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" letter number 142. He says flat-out that "[It] is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work..."

[@Autobotmatt428]

Is this because of the film?

[@bleewicket]

I wonder if Tolkien’s faith and the Catholic allegory of his books is explored in the new bio-pic movie? I would like to see it but I think it has been getting poor reviews?

[@fragwagon]

You can look up the details, but the Tolkien estate has come out against the film.

[@sanvicbertnmaceda2037]

I want Bishop Barron to respond to M.Voris

[@BishopBarron]

Nope.

[@KingJorman]

Hey, it's Bryan Cranston's brother!

[@SpiritualFox]

I knew about C.S. Lewis, but this? Gah! I've been had! At least Harry Potter is still safe. **starts learning latin**

[@Teuts2000]

Tolkien was a big influence on Lewis' conversion to Christianity.

[@SpiritualFox]

@@Teuts2000 Ohhh, that's interesting to know. Thank you good-sir.

[@Eowyn3Pride]

😁 It is no less reason to enjoy the stories as they are. Every person can identify with the struggles for Bilbo and Frodo. There is a little bit of each of the Characters in us. "...All you have to decide is what to do with the time that's been given to you..." Gandalf,FotR, Kazadum

[@SpiritualFox]

@@Eowyn3Pride Oh, i like Sam the best. Frodo... Frodo took the stages of the cross too far imho, tho even suggesting that is probably tantamount to heresy in Catholic circles. I've been looking into Lucifer recently, long story (okay maybe not that long, i go to protestant church). Your username is associated? Or maybe more of a lion of zion thing, CATholic?

[@Eowyn3Pride]

@@SpiritualFox ...Saruman thought he could keep Sauron at bay, even with the use of the Palantir...his power alone was insufficient. Eowyn was the only one who could have defeated the Witch-King of Angmar, her humility won the battle. There are virtues at work which are greater than any in this world can fathom.

[@keithbperrin9633]

As much as I luv Tolkien and Lewis, there is alot of glorifying magic and witchcraft....period. but as stated..luv the authors

[@strategicgamingwithaacorns2874]

Did they ever even READ Tolkien?! Frodo did NOT succeed in destroying the Ring! The Ring was only unmade because Gollum stole it from him at the last moment! Hello Future Me did a good video on that scene in Mount Doom.

[@drdelaur]

Aha now we see the great subtlety of Tolkien. Frodo could not do this on his own His Samwise saves him many times But Gollum’s treachery is that of Judas. The Devil thought he had Jesus in his own power but when he sprang his trap he destroyed himself So Gollum’s treacherous act is what brings salvation And let us not forget that all this happened on March 25. The Feast of the Annunciation That is the day Jesus becomes incarnate.

[@josephgallardo8134]

Oops and I forgot my protestant Catholic hating past to be included

[@johnnoteast7857]

Frodo did not sacrifice when he came to Mount Doom...

[@PilgrimMission]

Why insist that its Catholic , instead of just "Christian" ?

[@drdelaur]

Read any thing written by Joseph Pearce on Tolkien. About 125 reasons

[@mcd-lyte1559]

Was the duration of this video intentionally set to 4:20? We all know how those hobbits loved to smoke their pipes ;)

[@marypinakat8594]

So convincingly commented in less than 5 minutes. Bishop and Brandon may have just recorded it focusing on the points for the commentary. All in all it is beautiful.

[@user-bs1qk2ku7b]

Tolkien, like Graham Greene or Dante, is not in the business of encapsulating Catholic theology in tasty pills - they’re Catholic storytellers. The schematicism on show in this clip is unworthy of great writers and the •mysteries• they lose themselves in.

[@jackmorrison7379]

Here's the problem with your thesis: Nothing I've heard in this video is doctrine limited to Roman Catholicism as claimed even if the author Tolkien was R.C. and made that claim. Mainstream Christians of many traditions share these fundamental doctrines concerning Jesus, original sin, and the different roles of Christ as redeemer, teacher, savior and resurrected Lord. Now this is what I'd expect from a Catholic apologist and I don't fault you for your effort. That's what sectarian evangelization is all about. Join my team and not that other team. I'd say it is defensible on one ground and that is to answer those unfair critics from the evangelical wing of Protestantism who allege you R.C. are not even Christians which this mainstream Christian knows is false. Yes, you are Christians but so are many many others unified in the water of baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus, Tolkien's stories have broader applications and analogies for all of us as believers. In fact I think Tolkien was one of the few RC (the only??) among the "Inklings" as that pub gathering was called and he got on well with his Anglican and Methodist academic counterparts. Did you have to leave out C.S. Lewis's name when you mentioned the group? Tolkien's works speak to many, even non-believers (may God reach them).

[@grosbeak6130]

John Morrison Tolkien said explicitly that he did not like allegory in literature and chided CS Lewis on that point. An example here is the bishop saying that Frodo is a Christ figure. Well Frodo completely failed at the last moment and if it wasn't for Gollum that ring would not have been thrown into Mount Doom to be destroyed. You see folks Tolkien was not into allegory and yet the bishop here is reducing tolkien's work to just that.

[@drdelaur]

Read Joseph Pearce if you care about this If you don’t believe it this will be a loss to you

[@tomsaltsman]

"watered down gospel"

[@marypinakat8594]

Brain damaged or just hate? Either case it would be sad.

[@tomsaltsman]

​@@marypinakat8594Calling the scripture brain-damaged or hateful is downright blasphemous.

[@marypinakat8594]

@@tomsaltsman So, I've got to understand that here's a self appointed deity in scene.

[@tomsaltsman]

@@marypinakat8594 Me, a deity? That's called "making a straw man argument." The phrase "watered down gospel" was meant to be a correction in the previous post where I cited II Timothy 4:3-4. I should have made that clearer. It's a very common Christian belief that the Bible is the Word of God and the Word is God. It looked to me like you were calling THAT scripture brain-dead and hateful. If so, that's blasphemous to ANY Christian mind.

[@marypinakat8594]

@@tomsaltsman You could be the only Christian left to surround you in your argument whatever it is that you are trying to prove.

[@sheilamarler2439]

Can't hear you--shapiro, ruben and Peterson are too loud.

[@ivanpurcellv]

Sneaky. This is not how Jesus went preaching. And it’s not ok.