Bishop Barron: What Christians Mean By God

[@DopedFiend]

I’m only here because my religion teacher assigned watching this.

[@McRingil]

Isn't it good he wants you to know truth?

[@niallhogan1565]

Lucky.

[@goatitisful]

My cousin patrick sent me to this video... i am grateful to him for doing so. I keep inching closer and closer to god because of him...

[@TheMartin4321]

Thank you Fr. Barron for bringing me closer to God. You are an inspiration.

[@MattTheMagician23]

People who understand the logicalness of Saint Thomas Aquinas' argument from contingency are blessed to know that God exists (I certainly feel blessed).

[@SmithsnMoz]

The entire Catholicism series by Fr. Barron is like this. I more than highly recommend it. I assure you it will be one of the best religious dvd collections you will want to share with everyone you love. I bought mine on eBay for $50 new a month ago. Absolutely happy with my purchase. The holy spirit was definitely guiding Fr. BARRON thru this work. God bless him.

[@MrCarmelocutajar]

Excellent. It cannot be explained better. Keep it up Fr. Barron. You explained St. Thomas' views about the existence of God. He was right and so you are. God bless.

[@MegaFORTUNE8]

The Truth really sets us free.

[@aaron1983]

My soul is at peace, it is restful everytime I remember the fact that God is God, 'I am who I am'.

[@StephanieJenck]

Completely ecstatic for the release! This will be a beautiful, beautiful project into Catholicism.

[@Gazdo01]

It follows, therefore, that through the institution of the sacraments man, consistently with his nature, is instructed through sensible things; he is humbled, through confessing that he is subject to corporeal things, seeing that he receives assistance through them: and he is even preserved from bodily hurt, by the healthy exercise of the sacraments.

[@nishicooray3]

Our Lord tells us that when we do good to other human beings, we do it to Him - he gives us some examples - but there are so many ways of serving 'the least of His brethren'. When we do these out of love, we do serve Christ.

[@Gazdo01]

1913 "Participation" is the voluntary and generous engagement of a person in social interchange. It is necessary that all participate, each according to his position and role, in promoting the common good. This obligation is inherent in the dignity of the human person.

[@Funny4450]

I absolutely LOVE this episode. Can't wait to get the video set!

[@Gazdo01]

1917 It is incumbent on those who exercise authority to strengthen the values that inspire the confidence of the members of the group and encourage them to put themselves at the service of others. Participation begins with education and culture. "One is entitled to think that the future of humanity is in the hands of those who are capable of providing the generations to come with reasons for life and optimism." (GS 31 # 3)

[@Gazdo01]

1912 The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around." (GS 26 # 3) This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love.

[@Gazdo01]

1910 : Each human community possesses a common good which permits it to be recognized as such; it is in the political community that its most complete realization is found. It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society, its citizens, and intermediate bodies.

[@Gazdo01]

I have found these in the Cathechism... This might help you in your spiritual struggles... 1905 : In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person: Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together. (Ep. Barnabae, 4,10: PG 2, 734.)

[@ThomWillis]

Holy moly, I can't wait to watch this series!

[@Gazdo01]

"You don't come to God through a Church" I talked about Sacraments... Here's what St Augustin had to say: "It is impossible to keep men together in one religious denomination, whether true or false, except they be united by means of visible signs or sacraments." (Contra Faust. xix) But it is necessary for salvation that men be UNITED together in the name of the ONE TRUE RELIGION, which is based on the ONE CHRIST. Therefore sacraments are necessary for man's salvation.

[@Gazdo01]

1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily." (GS 26 # 1; cf. GS 74 # 1) The common good concerns the life of all. It calls for prudence from each, and even more from those who exercise the office of authority. It consists of three essential elements:

[@krzyszwojciech]

part2) ... Via semantic trick of "comes into being and out of being", Barron is conflating the changing forms (you're explained by your parents, they're explained by theirs, humans are explained by the Earth and the Sun... -> "how was I/something formed this way?" question) with the attribute of existence itself which is entirely different question ("where does existence come from?" [actually, the proper question we should be asking here is "does existence have to come from anywhere?"]).

[@Manuel.Valencia322]

Moses had the privilege of speaking with God, and God gave him his mission. We all have our place and our mission on this planet some have more responsibility then others with our mission to serve our lord. I feel that once God calls you to a Greta mission to use you for a greater cause you cannot ignore him we all try to ignore it and some many obstacles present them selves when you try to steer from his mission.

[@Gazdo01]

1914 Participation is achieved first of all by taking charge of the areas for which one assumes personal responsibility: by the care taken for the education of his family, by conscientious work, and so forth, man participates in the good of others and of society. (Cf. CA 43)

[@NervousVegan]

It's interesting to hear about this and consider the differences and similarities between Christian and Buddhist ideas of contingency. Thank you!

[@farsight001]

I read what you said. And I understood it and I understand what the Catholic Church means when it says Muslims can find salvation. I even explained how one might do so whilst still going through Jesus, who I also said very clearly IS the only way. So really, it's not that I need to re-read what you said. It's that you need to re-read what I said.

[@krzyszwojciech]

To the point: part1) All we can see (and actually prove to exist) - clouds, humans, our parents, etc. are just different forms, different arrangements of matter and energy (and these are interchangeable (E=mc^2)). So from our perspective, there is space-time with matter and energy, bubbling, mixing, self-assembling, eroding - changing forms.

[@BBShaw-cd9wz]

Made me cry, love you Lord

[@shysterlicious]

I'm SO going to buy these when they come out on DVD.

[@farsight001]

It would be possible, but I believe that through scripture and sacred tradition, God has revealed enough to us for us to know otherwise. In other words, we can understand, just not without his explanation.

[@Gazdo01]

1925 The common good consists of three essential elements: respect for and promotion of the fundamental rights of the person; prosperity, or the development of the spiritual and temporal goods of society; the peace and security of the group and of its members. 1926 The dignity of the human person requires the pursuit of the common good. Everyone should be concerned to create and support institutions that improve the conditions of human life.

[@IgneusDei2]

Ah I see what you mean. The argument Fr. Barron is borrowing from Aquinas here, though, is talking about cause and effect as opposed to purpose. The cloud, in his example, is the product of atmospheric conditions. He uses the cloud as a starting point to talk about the cause-and-effect chain that reaches from our present to the beginning of the universe. All things in our universe have a cause, but eventually some uncaused cause had to start it all off - and this is what Aquinas calls God.

[@Gazdo01]

1909 : Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defence.

[@krzyszwojciech]

Stupid me! I was banned from Barron's channel. This is a different one, so I can still post here. If you don't mind, I'll repost some of my PM here. Also, I just noticed, I might have not been clear in my post - what I wanted to say by " The existence itself might just be contingent in its own right, always changing its form" is that the universe might just be self-explanatory.

[@bluesparklejet]

Beautifully put Fr Barron

[@Gazdo01]

1911 Human interdependence is increasing and gradually spreading throughout the world. the unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; (cont)

[@Gazdo01]

1927 It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. the common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level. I hope this was helpfull. I sure enjoyed this. Now, you know why promotion of common good goes along with contribution to humanity, and they are ALL GOOD THINGS. The Jesuits have done (and still do) ENORMOUS good to the world, primarily by evangelizing, educating the youth and scientific innovations!

[@nishicooray3]

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2:15-17)

[@macguy]

If you actually paid attention to the video, by the way, you'd see that he acknowledges there is an approximate explanation for clouds, but it must itself be caused by something else. Since we cannot have an infinite regress, there must be something is itself uncaused. So here you have an argument that agrees with you, but goes beyond by recognizing that there must be an Uncaused Cause for there to be anything at all.

[@Gazdo01]

The two key words you used: 1. Which I CAN do, BY GOD'S GRACE So, there is the use of FUTURE TENSE, because you DON'T KNOW what will happen in the future. You might FALL, that is called not being able to resist TEMPTATION. You also acknowledge, just as it is defined by Catholic Teaching, that you are saved by GRACE ALONE, and that this grace DOESN'T come FROM YOU. As we have seen, it is possible to LOSE it. That is why John says we must PRAY for the Grace to come again (1 Jn 5.16) (cont.)

[@Gazdo01]

1908 : Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties. Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on. (Cf. GS 26 # 2)

[@Gazdo01]

1915 As far as possible citizens should take an active part in public life. the manner of this participation may vary from one country or culture to another. "One must pay tribute to those nations whose systems permit the largest possible number of the citizens to take part in public life in a climate of genuine freedom." (Cf. GS 30 # 1)

[@mediawork001]

Can't wait for CATHOLICISM to see the entire project!

[@libnan1943]

The fact that we can't prove either of these proves God exists.

[@IgneusDei2]

I found the video to be direct and the argument well-explained. What part of the argument did you find disagreeable?

[@Gazdo01]

Historically, it was Catholics who evangelized the nations. I've mentionned St Francis Xavier as an example, to show how christianity spread through Asia. All of South America is Catholic... I wonder how come, if we don't evangelize... There are thousands of Catholic missions in Africa as we speak, which is why Africa is turning into a christian continent. But you are right though, for the past century of so, Catholics have lacked in zeal for evangelisation, and that must change.

[@Gazdo01]

The third reason is taken from the fact that man is prone to direct his activity chiefly towards material things. Lest, therefore, it should be too hard for man to be drawn away entirely from bodily actions, bodily exercise was offered to him in the sacraments, by which he might be trained to avoid superstitious practices, consisting in the worship of demons, and all manner of harmful action, consisting in sinful deeds.

[@Gazdo01]

There are plenty examples of Catholic missionnaries. I'll name JUST A FEW. 1. Ireland (St Patrick) 2. England (St Augustine of Canturbury) Then you have the Jesuits (I've mentionned St Francis Xavier, but you have A LOT MORE), who spread the Gospel in India, China, Japan, Philippines, Indonesia, ETC. Also here in Canada (Brébeuf) USA (under Spanish rule in the 17th cent), and hundreds of (mostly Franciscan) missions in California, Texas, New Mexico, etc. I mentionned South America as well...

[@Gazdo01]

1907 : First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. (cont)

[@Gazdo01]

Sacraments are necessary unto man's salvation for three reasons. The first is taken from the condition of human nature which is such that it has to be led by things corporeal and sensible to things spiritual and intelligible. Now it belongs to Divine providence to provide for each one according as its condition requires. Divine wisdom, therefore, fittingly provides man with means of salvation, in the shape of corporeal and sensible signs that are called sacraments.

[@Gazdo01]

The Church is the New Davidic Kingdom... Christ is our King. We live in a COMMUNITY (the New Kingdom). Of course the Bible supports the developpment of society through better structure, technology, justice, etc...

[@marcporter77]

John Platko, displays the mindset of one who hasn't a clue there is a world, outside of the clique he belongs to. He has spent too much time watching the popular networks and attending schools where teachers have been fed the same fodder for five decades. Catholics are of every skin color and language. We are 1.2 billion people. Membership in our community is voluntary. We are growing in the most persecuted places in the world, particularly in the S. Hemisphere and in Asia. African Catholicism grew 181% when John Paul II was our Pope. These are the countries is where our priests and leaders are now coming from. In the last month the Phillipines has been hit by a 7.2 Richter earthquake and a super typhoon, yet they know how to pull together because most are people of faith. Countries whose God is the government, are going to be without comfort if a day of reckoning should come.

[@haydizzle13]

The opening scenes look like Playstation 2 renders

[@MatthewWarner]

@jrichardhutton Believing in math/science requires believing and having faith in the process you speak of and in the continued dependability that what you observe means anything. And "understanding" lines of causality is a different thing than recognizing logically that there must be one. Finally, I never claimed belief requires fact or logic. But personally, I like to base my beliefs on both.

[@Gazdo01]

1916 As with any ethical obligation, the participation of all in realizing the common good calls for a continually renewed conversion of the social partners. Fraud and other subterfuges, by which some people evade the constraints of the law and the prescriptions of societal obligation, must be firmly condemned because they are incompatible with the requirements of justice. Much care should be taken to promote institutions that improve the conditions of human life. (Cf. GS 30 # 1)

[@Gazdo01]

(cont) this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families." (GS 84 # 2)

[@Gazdo01]

1918 "There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" (⇒ Rom 13:1). 1919 Every human community needs an authority in order to endure and develop. 1920 "The political community and public authority are based on human nature and therefore . . . belong to an order established by God" (GS 74 # 3). 1921 Authority is exercised legitimately if it is committed to the common good of society. To attain this it must employ morally acceptable means.

[@nishicooray3]

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethen, that you do unto me.

[@Gazdo01]

"You don't come to God through a Church" The Sacraments are an essential part of the Christian life. You don't find these outside the Church. "or By Works" Faith without works is DEAD. It is useless. It is hypocrisy. It doesn't exist. Works make up for our JUSTIFICATION. I never said you "come to God", or are "saved" by works. But when you have found God, you WORK WITH HIS GRACE = works. "Through Faith in what God said in His Word, The Bible." =Catholic Teaching

[@nishicooray3]

I'm a Christian thanks to the Catholic missionaries! The Church does not force people to be Christian - in fact the Church's teaching is the very opposite. Also, @KingJamesBible: 'humanism' does not mean doing good to humanity. Humanism is the belief that man is all that matters. No faithful Catholic believes this. Where in the Bible does it say we have to contribute to humanity? Lots and lots of places - God has a special concern for the weak and the vulnerable - the widows and orphans.

[@farsight001]

I am a Christian. And sure, they seem to do things for which we can say that there were better ways to do it, by our own understanding. But as compared to an omnipotent deity, our own understanding is crap.

[@Gazdo01]

The second reason is taken from the state of man who in sinning subjected himself by his affections to corporeal things. Now the healing remedy should be given to a man so as to reach the part affected by disease. Consequently it was fitting that God should provide man with a spiritual medicine by means of certain corporeal signs; for if man were offered spiritual things without a veil, his mind being taken up with the material world would be unable to apply itself to them.

[@tylerj26]

That music at the end is the perfect "mind = blown" music. lol

[@Gazdo01]

Peter teaches the SAME THING: "knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" is NOT SUFFICIENT!! It doesn't GARANTY ANYTHING, because we still can be "AFTER [...] entangled in the pollutions of the world." That situation is not only "WORSE", but "it had been BETTER for them NOT to HAVE KNOWN the way of righteousness" (2 Peter 2.20-21). You realize what Peter is saying? There is a possibility of KNOWING RIGHTEOUSNESS (Christ our LORD and SAVIOR), and STILL be in a WORSE situation, IF WE FALL.

[@MatthewWarner]

@jrichardhutton We can also reasonably assume that there can not be an infinite regress of contingency which would explain absolutely nothing and add up to total nonsense (violating our assumption of intelligibility...that things in our universe ultimately make sense). So we must at some point back come to some kind of being that is outside of space/time...A being that is not-contingent upon anything else for its existence. This is what Christians call God.

[@Gazdo01]

(cont) In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as "the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion." (GS 26 # 2)

[@Gazdo01]

1922 The diversity of political regimes is legitimate, provided they contribute to the good of the community. 1923 Political authority must be exercised within the limits of the moral order and must guarantee the conditions for the exercise of freedom. 1924 The common good comprises "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily" (GS 26 1).

[@krzyszwojciech]

All examples that can be made from our perspective are about contingency of form, not of existence (particles and energy are still here). Even the Big Bang starts at the singularity - and we have no idea what its nature is, if there was anything before, or if there was even "before" itself. The existence itself might just be contingent in its own right, always changing its form - we cannot say one way or the other. This argument gets us nowhere - it's taking a leap, where steps will be required.

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

Why didn't Father Barron differentiate between a linear/temporal infinite regress and a hierarchical infinite regress? Aquinas was mostly ambivalent on the idea of an infinite *temporal* regress, but he argued strongly against the idea that a hierarchical causal or explanatory regress could be infinite. Here Fr Barron makes it sound like Aquinas argued against an infinite past or an eternal universe, but he didn't. Barron knows this so I'm puzzled. Did he not have confidence in this audience's ability to grasp the actual arguments?

[@macguy]

No, empirical proof is not the only means of proving something. It can be metaphysically proved as well. However, YT comments is a bad format for doing so. If you want to, we could have this discussion elsewhere. I know I would look forward to it. And no, nothing is not anything at all. Even the dictionary affirms this definition, so it's not my own subjective definition.

[@macguy]

No, it is the only "possible" explanation given the *metaphysical* nature of things. If I explained water vaporization in terms of heat, you would not say "If you can only think of an explanation in terms of heat did it, it does not make it true. There might be yet unknown or unknowable explanations". Nothing is nothing, stop obfuscating this issue. You don't understand metaphysics, and it would be "honest" to admit that.

[@Gazdo01]

What do we read in the letter to Hebrew?? "For IF WE SIN WILLFULLY A-F-T-E-R that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins, but a certain FEARFUL looking for of JUDGMENT and FIERY INDIGNATION , which shall DEVOUR the adversaries." (Heb 10.26-27) So... you PRETEND you are ALREADY SAVED, because you KNOW the Truth = Son of God. Yet, this passage contradicts your heretical beliefs, for you still can FALL and commit MORTAL SIN, and DAMN yourself.

[@Gazdo01]

"No believer in Christ, no institution of the Church can avoid this supreme duty: to proclaim Christ to all peoples." - Pope John Paul the Great If you'd spend a FRACTION of the time you spend hating the Church and spreading anti-Catholic propaganda, and actually used that time LEARNING what AUTHENTIC Catholicism is all about, you would cesse your war and come home.

[@whoami8434]

Well, during a substantial change, the primary matter remains the same and does not “pass out of being”. Perhaps the natures come into and out of being, but nothing just pops out of being.

[@johnplatko8804]

I've NEVER heard anyone defend Aquinas's proofs, or most other ideas for that matter, in a reasonable way. On the other hand, plenty of philosophers and people in general, have no trouble showing that the arguments are vacuous. David Hume and Bertrand Russell are just two examples. I could list more. All over youtube you'll find people mocking these arguments and rightfully so. And these ideas have just confused Father Barron's brain resulting in him saying silly things.

[@johnplatko8804]

I can't figure out what Father Barron believes or why. I put together a 4 part video series on his "ideas", he seems very confused to me. There may have been a time when the contingent talk actually got people started on a path toward faith- but that doesn't work so well today. All over youtube you'll see atheists mocking the unreasonableness of the argument- for good reason. Today, it's more of a hindrance than a help. I doubt TA would use the argument if he were alive today- he loved truth.

[@MatthewWarner]

@goldenram27 I believe there ARE proofs to the existence of God (this video represents a summary of one of them). I also believe there are many others. And aside from philosophical proofs, we have historical, moral, anthropological and experiential truths as well. And OF COURSE this doesn't explain Christianity by itself. I never claimed it did or implied we couldn't. That is not the scope of this video, tho. And this is hardly the space to do it.

[@Gazdo01]

The Church teaches Jesus is our only hope. You and me are in agreement on this. "Spes Unica" is the latin term. Now, the betterment of humanity is not in opposion with that statement. Where in the Cathechism do you read we can "save ourselves" through the betterment of humanity? Please try to stick to the subject. It is very easy to criticize EVERYTHING and ANYTHING. But what's the logic in that? The Church teaches a Catholic's primary purpuse is to SAVE SOULS.

[@johnplatko8804]

I don't think that's it. I believe in God, I'm a Christian, and a Catholic. Until I went to college I only went to Roman Catholic schools. And while I think I was given a muddled Christian education, I'm still very grateful for it. I just think it could and should be much better. I don't think Father Barron is helping Christians by breathing life into Thomas Aquinas's ideas. I want to be a Christian NOT an Aristotelian. I simply have more faith in priests like Father Foster.

[@Gazdo01]

But the is ONE God, there is ONE Christ. There have been hundred of heresies about GOD and CHRIST. Fortunately, the Catholic Church defended orthodoxy through the first 16 centuries... Now we have heresies about Salvation, Predestination, Grace, Justification, the Scriptures, Mariology, the Sacraments, the Real Presence, Free Will, ETC. There are as many heresies as there as protestants. But there is ONE TRUTH. NOBODY can interpret the Bible outside the Church, who is the FOUNDATION OF TRUTH.

[@splotsplot]

Don't forget that in talking about these things we are limited by our words. In many respects we only have words for things we know and not for things we don't, which is why the world of mathematics is so useful. It can work in 10 dimensions if it so wishes. How could you describe to a blind man what light was. How could you do this by using just words. How would you use words to tell him what the difference was between red and blue? The Cathoilc Church is only able to use words to describe what it thinks it knows and understands and is therefore woefully and fatally flawed.

[@IgneusDei2]

I find your point intriguing, but I think I need a bit more explanation to understand the counterargument you're making. Terms like "form" and "existence" have a variety of definitions, especially from philosophical standpoints. Can you define what you mean a bit further? I would make one argument about the uninterrupted existence of matter and energy, though. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle suggests that this is not the case, but that particles and energy pop into and out of existence.

[@Gazdo01]

If salvation was a SURE 100% ASSURED thing, how could Paul pose a CONDITION to it?? He said "IF thou continue in his goodness", then we will be saved. IMMEDIATLY after, he warns us: "OTHERWISE thou also SHALT BE cut off." (Rm 11.22) So basically, Paul says it is possible to be in a state of Grace, and still LOSE IT. The protestant doctrine "once saved always saved" is a HERESY. Paul says it very clearly!! There is a possibility for anyone of us TO BE (future tense) CUT OFF = not saved.

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

If you believe that your own understanding is crap, then how could you possibly rely upon it to any degree in order to make any statement which you believe to be a truth? You could not.

[@Gazdo01]

Listen to what JESUS Himself says: "when they hear, RECEIVE THE WORD WITH JOY; and these have no root,which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY." (Lk 8.13) Your Lord and Savior WARNS you... It is POSSIBLE to have FAITH, it is POSSIBLE to live in the JOY of Christ's Gospel, and STILL FALL AWAY afterwards. How DARE you say you are ASSURED of salvation, when Jesus Himself says ANYBODY can FALL AWAY after he has believed???

[@Gazdo01]

If salvation was 100% SURE, why would Paul fear being CASTAWAY?? "But I keep under my body, and bring it into SUBJECTION: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." (1 Cor 9.27) Paul didn't say... Well, now that I know Christ, now that I have faith, everything's cool, I'm saved, no matter what I do, I'm ASSURED of Heaven... NOOOO!!!!! He was constantly in PRAYER and worked to MASTER his bodily pulsions... again, NOT TO FALL INTO TEMPTATION.

[@nishicooray3]

You can't just state that it's proven to be without error, or that God just did suddenly give the improved version 700 years after the founding of the Church. God is reasonable - He doesn't behave randomly - which is good because He can't then be manipulated to support narrow sectarian causes (like anti-Catholicism)

[@Gazdo01]

"Of course, you need to be saved FIRST to begin such a life." That is not NECESSARILY true, but I understand what you mean. Not what remains a mystery to me is how in the world you can say Catholics are not saved... Did you listen to the video of Scott Hahn I have posted on your wall? Are you DOING the New Covenant? :)

[@farsight001]

You did not answer my question. Does God have the power or authority to do what I described above?

[@Gazdo01]

Wow... another great argument from a great protestant scholar... Here we have it! Ok blackaboe... nice talking to you, but I don't have time to waste. I have given you the sound arguments, all based on biblical verses. I have shown you the logic and historicity behind the Catholic Church position. Stay where you are, meanwhile, protestants theologians are converting to Catholicism as we speak.

[@MatthewWarner]

@jrichardhutton Just as we can reasonably assume the universe is intelligible based upon our experience, we can also very reasonably assume that everything is contingent upon something else.

[@farsight001]

Thank you for basically restating my point.

[@MatthewWarner]

@jrichardhutton And what assumption would that be? Either way, that wouldn't make it "not an argument." Just cuz something may be based on some level of assumption doesn't mean it's not an argument. As for "faith" or it being based on assumptions in the first place, every argument does this on some level. Even math and science themselves are based on a very basic assumption, or faith, that the universe is intelligible.

[@jamaicanification]

And what exactly is "confused" about Thomas Aquinas's ideas? I mean even in the philosophical departments since the collapse of Logical positivism in the late 20th century, Aquinas's ideas has regained traction through people like Alastair Maclaire. So I dont know what your talking about when you say Father Barron or Aquinas's ideas of God are "silly".

[@Gazdo01]

Tell me, which Church Father did you ever read? And precisely what book have you read?? If you're gonna say they are "LYING" (wow, that's a big accusation), I hope you have studied carefully what they say to begin with...

[@farsight001]

No. Where did you get that idea?

[@farsight001]

You have again avoided answering my question - Does God have the power or authority to do what I described above? It's a yes or no question. Yes or no. Which is it? I'm not letting you divert the issue and avoid answering, so stop trying.

[@Gazdo01]

Here is where you get so ARROGANT and BLASPHEME against the ONLY JUDGE, who is God! Paul writes "For I know NOTHING by myself; yet am I NOT hereby JUSTIFIED: but he that JUDGETH me is the LORD." (1 Cor 4.4) Even if you are not CONSCIOUS of it, you MIGHT live in a way that DOESN'T please God. Even if YOU, PERSONNALY, are CONVINCED you are righteous, there is a POSSIBILITY you are not. You're NOT the JUDGE. It is BLASPHEMY for YOU, a HUMAN, to pretend you are WORTHY (thus ASSURED) of salvation.

[@MatthewWarner]

@goldenram27 3. It's not about being comfortable. It's about intelligibility. Either stuff is reasonable or its not. Maybe beyond our reason at some point, but either it's reasonable or it's not. Science relies on this principle as well - intelligibility & an assumption that the universe is reasonable. A literal infinite regress by its definition can not explain itself...unless it occurs within the scope of a being that created it from nothing...which means it has a beginning in some sense.

[@Gazdo01]

I've spent years discussing with Daniel (aka KJB) and I'm not surprized at what's happening here... Those fundamentalists have a really hard time following and understanding LOGICAL INFERENCES/CONCLUSIONS. Keep up the good fight, but there is very little hope he will ever admit he's wrong on anything. Just this example of "going through" vs "knowing"... SO SIMPLE, yet, those fundamentalists are, it seems, INCAPABLE of understand the distinction. It's very funny, something frightening.

[@waspswatter]

@nearenough3 Fluctuation in absolute nothingness is NOT nothingness. What caused that fluctuation? That theory is still within the argument for contingency, that there is "something" beyond all things known or knowable by scientific method. The cause of the big bang is "postulated" to be an infinite eternal being who's very nature is to "be". How God operates? finite, temporal minds cannot fully know infinite or eternal. What answer can satisfy you? No one "knows", that's why it's called faith.