Are entry hazards broken?

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[@BKCplaysPokemon]

Make no mistake; I unequivocally love the film Hazard (2005)

[@hangfire5944]

Thats only because you run timbs 😤

[@Mimikyurem]

It's something I've wondered myself before. Like say if entry hazards were all introduced in say gen 7 I think they could've been banned. They're very safe moves to use and require very niche moves to counter them. If we didn't get gradually accustomed to them over the generations I think they would've been banned for being overcentralizing.

[@Scourge728]

I thnk rocks are the main issue with hazards, Far too effective on types that are mostly already struggling (ice, bug, fire.) and too ineffective on types that would be good anyways (ground, steel). And this is coming from someone who enjoys spamming whirlwind in gen 6 ou.

[@hppern3971]

I remember when Ice type SR was the number one most theorized potential addition to deal with Dragons

[@MaahirMomtaz12]

​@@hppern3971Garchomp to ZU

[@mayac69]

I think Boots were made to allow Pokemon to not be useless to Rocks, and so I think Rocks are the issue. Them hitting everything and making certain pokemon basically dead on arrival made Boots seem reasonable to Game freak.

[@patrickripleyiii134]

Yeah stealth rocks should not have type effectiveness, it just super nerfs some pokemon for no reason

[@vyktorehon5995]

​@@patrickripleyiii134 yea, cry in charizard fanboy lol. (JK)

[@mashonem]

Gamefreak also made palafin, flutter mane, chien-pao, and chi-yu, so their perception of “reasonable” can be called into question

[@yep9462]

@@patrickripleyiii134 As a Volcarona fan I am glad that they are around because with that spread/movepool and a better (ie less rock weak) typing it would prob be banned rn

[@AdumbroDeus]

​@@patrickripleyiii134 which in turn resulted in them making some of the Pokemon weak to rocks ridiculously strong to compensate for how incredibly strong they are.

[@Doug_Edwards99]

I think most people agree that Hazards aren’t bad in it if themselves, but Stealth Rock in particular is a bit too strong. I would say if they nerfed S. Rocks to do a fixed amount of damage to all switch ins it would be more balanced. Like that’s the trade off between Spikes and Stealth Rock. One does more damage but has types immune to it and does more damage, while the other can hit more things but it only chip off an 1/8th of health. Also, maybe we could have Rock types be completely immune to stealth rock. Considering how many weaknesses Rock types have I think it would be a good defensive buff. But I think hazards are a positive for the meta and prevent singles from dragging on forever. Can you imagine a Gen 8 with no hazards and Regenerator Pokémon with recovery moves like Toxapex or Slowbro? They would never die.

[@volcanicz6739]

Honestly it's just way too unfair for fire, ice and flying in particular to lose massive chunks of health for 1 good turn

[@VioletOrbWeaver]

me and a friend came to the exact same conclusion after a recent conversation about the role of hazards! rocks is too centralizing, even compared to other hazards. as the video says, they deal 200% on average- an amount equivalent to three layers of spikes- and take one turn to set. nothing is immune, and almost every defog user is weak to them, meaning that clearing them often involves incurring the aforementioned three spike layers worth of damage. spikes is already meta defining in gens 2 & 3, and stealth rocks is even more powerful. it’s ridiculous. rocks have a valuable role as a hazard that can hit the spike-immune, but as it stands, a mon trades off nothing to use rocks instead of spikes

[@BananaReidy]

They could nerfi the damage from 12.5 to 10% could help

[@donkkut5003]

i think to answer this question we would need to explore more hazardless metagames, like a version of current gen ou but with entry hazards banned, then we could get more of an idea how the lack of entry hazards affects the game since rby was so different

[@cashcloakburmy]

I’d love to see a multi-generation tournament (maybe an invitational) where hazards are banned in each generation just to see what happens. It’s always fun to explore what-if scenarios, even if for only a weekend.

[@algar6616]

The value of being spikes immune/rocks resistant is extremely amplified in the permanent sand generations

[@hugmynutus]

This is also largely why SR wasn't considered OP early on. Most your team had to be immune to sand, so it resisted SR by extension.

[@ryanborn7026]

Its fascinating because I consider BKC to be one of the greatest advocates of hazards, so now I'm seeing years and years of preaching how critical and powerful they are have this realization that they might in fact be TOO powerful and critical

[@emmetstanevich2121]

I really like the effect hazards have on the way the game is played. It helps prevent stalemates by ensuring that each forced switch progresses the gamestate. RBY is fine without hazards, yes, but it also doesn't have held items or abilities (such as leftovers) that offer passive healing. I do think the stealth rock damage formula warrants a rework, as losing 50% on switch-in is a bit ridiculous. Perhaps it could be changed to treat 4x weaknesses and resistances as 2x ones? Additionally, I think boots should be changed to simply reduce each hazard's damage to 12.5% max. That would still benefit quad-weak pokemon like charizard, while still ensuring that you can't slap boots onto a pivot and ignore the very hazards meant to keep such strategies in check.

[@MrCheeze]

Really, the core of it is that _switching itself_ is an overpowered mechanic in Singles. So they introduced counter-mechanics (hazards and shadow tag), which feel broken because they punish or prevent the most powerful mechanic. And that in turn demanded counters for the counter-mechanics...

[@enickma910]

the issue with hazards (rocks) is how they completely invalidate fire, flying, ice, and bug types. heavy duty boots are a bad answer to that bad question. like stitching a stick to a bloody stump and calling it a fixed leg.

[@IschmarVI]

they don't necessarily invalidate flying because flying also makes you immune to other hazards. You are right on the other three types though.

[@amphibiansriseup596]

Boots helped alot of fire ice and flying types such as Volc, Zapdos, Weavile and Torn. Not bug types but they had other problems before rocks anyways.

[@RedFalcon-op4hx]

I have a lot to say on SR. The short, it’s a badly designed move. Not quite scald level but badly designed in a similar way. (It’s also interesting on the topic of boots, the only hazard that gets mentioned is SR specifically.) A point that doesn’t get mentioned is the types SR directly buffs (fighting, steel and ground), which are inherently some of the best types in terms of the type chart alone. While heavily nerfing types that could switch into or threaten them out. It also nerfs bug and ice two incredibly bad types, which could have niches. (Bug resisting ground&fighting and ice being strong against ground) Being able to hit flying types and levitate Pokemon already makes it the best hazard, as it’s able to exert the pressure that no other hazard can. Let alone the type effectiveness It also only costs one move slot and one turn to hit more targets and potentially deal more damage than spikes. Then the distribution is incredibly high for an objectively better version of spikes. Just replace SR with spikes on most Pokemon, SR should really be limited to Golem or similarly hard to justify Pokemon as it currently is.

[@RedFalcon-op4hx]

The prevalence of boots in SS OU at least was thanks to how strong SR is. Remember you’re giving up recovery, damage boosts, AV, status immunity berries and more. Just to avoid rocks. Boots is only as strong as the hazards it prevents are, which is entirely SR in SS. While defogs distribution was incredibly high which didn’t help stopping other hazards (especially spikes) from being used. Boots made it hard to justify using anything that wasn’t rocks.

[@RedFalcon-op4hx]

Nerf SR to be a fixed 12.5% to all types. (Or in the worst case scenario make it deal a max of double damage to anything part fire or flying. Take that Gliscor) While counter intuitive, making SR weaker reduces the incentive to run boots. Which makes hazards as a whole a lot stronger, as there’s a larger influx of Pokemon that would rather not run boots if they could.

[@prthedisaster]

What if hazards had like an "ammo" dimension? Like rocks can only be triggered up to 5 times and then you'd have to reapply, or the spikes stacking wore off when they damage something, or maybe only work for some turns like tailwind. Maybe that would bring about some interesting dynamics of creating breathing room for 4x weak guys to come in or stuff like that

[@tomwantshelp]

Yeah I was thinking of that, my concept was going to be “decay” (only last X turns) to mirror other field effects, but I think “damages Y Pokémon” is a better concept. Two Pokémon damaged by Spikes means a tier goes down, three Pokémon damaged by Rocks means that they go down (numbers tbc by testing). Combine it with halving the damage by Rocks and I think that would stop hazards from being centralising while still keeping them viable so they can play their role.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

it takes 3 turns for spikes to rack up any real damage. i think they’re fine for that balance tbh. the only nerf rocks needs are to lose its type match up affecting damage and to limit what they can hit. they are “floating in the air” yet hit grounded pokemon.

[@Great_Day_]

I think you could remove the type effectiveness of rocks and instead give rocks and spikes a small damage boost against full health Pokémon. You could also make the turns/hits hazards last fully refresh when you use the move. That would make stacking spikes still strong

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Yo-Kai Watch 3. Hazards have "ammo" in that they can mostly only be used from a charged Soultimate and only last fir a few turns.

[@benjihuynh2970]

If I could rework rocks, I would make it scale the same way as spikes. Neutral to rock: 12.5 Weak to rock: 16.7 4x weak to rock: 25 All rounded down

[@alexisdipoalo9443]

i feel like that wouldn't change alot, losing half your HP is still to much for most pokemon that would get that benfit

[@benjihuynh2970]

@@alexisdipoalo9443 I just think losing half health on a Mon for kind of no reason feels too punishing. If this change were in effect, I'd also ban boots.

[@Dankfort]

If I could rework it, I would remove it from the game

[@Iradium228]

"You see the Triangle." Triangels vs hclat starts playing in the background. The Directoral chops coming through thick and fast.

[@avet4952]

i just wish boots removed supereffectiveness of stealth rocks. gen8ou let us use moltres defensively, which was amazing, such a good rillaboom counter when it was everywhere. mandibuzz was another mon like that

[@Dankfort]

Eh that would be a really shit item then. If they just got rid of rocks then there would be no need for boots

[@BananaReidy]

Be cool if boots increased kicking moves powers

[@JABofLEGENDS]

To be honest, I want to see a meta game where Hazards only last a certain number of turns, like weather. So, default, Rocks,Web lasting let’s say 10 turns, Spikes and T.Spikes last 6, but resetting when another layer is added, add an item that extends hazards by 2-3 turns. So, you can play around it and have Pokemon that are destroyed by them used without coming in with only 50% health, while still having Hazards still be key to the game and the interplay of hazards and removal and strats around chip damage and switch punishing.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Dude, you are describing EXACTLY what Yo-Kai Watch 3 does with its field hazard system lol.

[@JABofLEGENDS]

@@DrCoeloCephalo is it? I've never played any game of the franchise or watched gameplay of it, so I don't know.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

@@JABofLEGENDS There's a video essay detailing alot of competitive Yo-Kai Watch. In YKW3, they introduced field hazards some of which also calc damage based on weakness similarly to Stealth Rock. However, since they are 50 power magic attacks (which ignore Defense calculation), they have way higher damage potential with being able to dofar more than half to a single monster. Also for every time a monster takes its "turn" and is standing on the tile with the hazard, they will get hit by it again. However, this is balanced out by a number of things. For one, they only cover 3 of the 9 total tiles randomly so you can make your monsters walk AROUND them. You need extremely specific teambuilds to be able to cover the whole field with hazards, they only last for 9 "turns" in total unless reset and are gone afterwards and Yo-Kai like Slax and Jackomasan turn hazard tesms into a winning matchup with how easily they can get rid of hazards compared to Rapid Spinners and Defoggsers that have to deal with giving momentum to things like Goldengho.

[@R.P.Genocraft]

bruh Stealth Rock doesn't even do damage when you click it, why would anyone use it 🧐 (but fr sometimes I wish hyper beam wasn't nerfed from how it was in rby and then I think about hazards and i'm like ok nevermind)

[@shadowbonbon3]

The Fact that stealth rocks can screw over almost every,flying bug,ice, and fire type just for existing pre gen 8 really makes me want a rocksless meta

[@6x31.]

I love them when they are on the enemy team's field

[@Rose-ez7yn]

17:31 fair and balanced calc

[@EvilApple567]

I feel like a huge part of the issue is how widespread the distribution of rocks are, especially compared to rapid spin. If the two had roughly equal distribution it would be a much more balanced mechanic, even moreso with spin's gen 8 buffs. Another potential fix is to make rocks only do double damage to flyers and levitaters who negate spikes. The detriment to types like ice and bug, and "buffs" to steel and ground are just blatantly unfair consequences of rocks' design. Entry hazards are imo a healthy and interesting aspect to the game to give switching more consequences and encourage better long term strategy, but the way it's been gone about, particularly through rocks, should've been addressed and reworked a long time ago.

[@Interiorcrocodilealigator10838]

Justice for copporajah not getting its steel type stealth rock gmax move remixed as a signature when kommo’o got its Z move remixed into clangorous soul. There would be no debate that hazards would be broken when the hazards are so potent that they can kill a Mon very likely, somehow being double and quad weak to both rock and steel. Ur essentially setting a aggron bear rug of death under the opponent. Even moves like salt cure, fake out, nuzzle, fell stinger would be capable of ohko’s, leech, seis, natures madness. Would prob be sweeping if u had every spike, t spike, sr, copper stealth rock. Volt turn, salt cure, future sight, might as well bring perma weather and pursuit back

[@thatnirvanatool6045]

I mean I only started playing any sort of competitive pokemon within the last year but one thing with stealth rocks is it feels like every other pokemon can learn it. If rocks were only specific to rock types would that change the meta a bit or no?

[@mmaaxxkk5177]

I'm not sure. We've already seen teams tech in obscure mons purely for hazard removal in a multitude of gens because removing them is THAT important. I would say it wouldn't be a stretch for people to use more obscure mons for such an undeniably strong tool.

[@anonjohn9760]

Hazards were one of the big reasons why I ended up getting out of Competitive. I just find their sheer presence to be detrimental in both team building and in general - I can't really think of another mechanic, bar maybe Sleep, Trapping, or Knock Off, that is so centralizing and unfun to play against, and yet so essential to victory that opting out of them is idiotic.

[@dastardlydwarf6909]

One of the reasons I love gen 3 so much is cause it it doesn’t have stealth rocks

[@uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh]

oh my god a bathroom break and movie recommendation back to back! chill with the fanservice!

[@FiboSai]

As a thought experiment, what would the metagame look like if they made Sticky Web into a TM or make it learnable through move tutor? Assuming that this would allow many bug types to learn it, would it be more common / a stable / overpowered?

[@familyguyfreemoviedownload8314]

i don’t have an opinion on this matter i just wanted to say the satantango reference in the fsg ferrothorn video absolutely took me out

[@TheBL1200]

Honestly I've played a lot of different tiers and I find the gens before rocks to be more fun generally, I dont mind rocks for the most part but I think guaranteed damage on every mon basically forces hazard removal in a lot of gens. Gen 8 with boots didn't help this in my opinion, it literally did just become the pokemon with knock off that are checked by rock weak mons are way more restrictive than they need to be. Moltres viability fell off a cliff when scizor dropped to uu in gen 8 for example. I think the fact that so many spike immune mons are weak to rocks really just ruins teambuilding in a lot of tiers. Gen 9 has made this especially obvious to me where hazard removal often comes down to what is the least worst option, at least in uu anyway

[@loftilywrongly3483]

I think entry hazards are a definite positive for most metagames, but I really wish they were balanced differently. Taking 12.5% on switch-in seems well-balanced to me, but I think that 25% on switch-in feels overly punishing. I don't like the argument that certain Pokemon would be broken with less damaging hazards because it's not like one of those roomtours where you're playing a certain tier with some mechanic changed or something. If something is broken in a hypothetical meta with these changed mechanics, then it gets banned.

[@JO-iv7tl]

Imagine using the ghost version of curse once then any pokemon your opponent has in play takes curse damage every turn.

[@grunkleg.2934]

I think at least in Gen 9, the biggest problem with entry hazards is that they are incredibly difficult to remove. They decided to give everyone and their grandmother either Spikes, Stealth Rock, or both, Defog has very limited distribution without HOME and is mostly learned by Rock weak Pokemon that are probably really weak, Rapid Spin is still not very well distributed (guys like Electrode and Wigglytuff are still unable to learn it for some reason), Mortal Spin is a signature move, and on top of all that, they genetically engineered a golden idol to stop every single method of removing hazards. The biggest reason why Great Tusk is everywhere is because it's one of the few good Rapid Spinners / can 1v1 Gholdengo, and looking further down in the tiers, once you get to NU the only Spinners left are Delibird and NFEs. If you just take every opportunity possible to drop an entry hazard on something that can't setup and sweep, that's a winning strategy. On top of that, I think Stealth Rock as a move is just really bad game design, even above something like Scald. Entry hazards as a concept are just fine. Punishing your opponent for switching is perfectly fine, since switching is pretty much always a good option in battle. But then you get to Stealth Rock. One move that you noncommittally throw onto the field a single time should not be allowed to invalidate entire types of Pokemon, while at the same time dealing negligible damage to types that are already good at avoiding passive damage.

[@emmetstanevich2121]

I think that's mainly an issue with Gholdengo. That thing feels almost specifically designed to turn singles into a hazard-fest.

[@itztaytay2]

Way from the future- HOME did not help lol

[@HesGotaGun505]

It all comes down to Type. Stealth Rock is a very unique move. It’s a status move that can deal type-based damage. Offensively, Rock type is strong against four types and is resisted by three types. That offensive power is tempered by Rock type’s FIVE weaknesses, and further limited by their low base speed. But SR isn’t just limited to Rock types, meaning that Steel-types like Skarm can get the offensive benefits of Rock-type damage without bearing the cost of Rock-type defense. But SR isn’t even limited to Rock, Steel and Ground. It has as wide a distribution as Toxic, and that much rock type damage being available on any team, even those with no Rock-types, is what has allowed SR to get out of control.

[@graylyhen9490]

If I was on the dev team I'd first try to tone down the max damage of SR to 33%ish instead of that awful 50%. There's Pokemon like Moltres who would be nice if not for SR. SwSh might've been hell to play but Boots really showed how nice these Mons would be without SR constantly putting them down The other gaping problem here is that there's barely any spinners in old gens. Starmie can't lift the entire world off her shoulders for multiple gens and even as newer Mons get introduced or older Mons become better it's still not enough. This exaggerates how much damage you take because of how easy and maintainable passive damage is It's also worth noting that people are accepting of how shallow removal is because the games were like that all the way up to BW. If hazards were newer and you had to deal with this low distribution of counterplay people would feel much different towards it. Imagine today being told that hundreds of Mons are instantly down in viability in a single change because of a new move It's worth having a few tourneys and events without hazards and seeing if them being toned down or reevaluated would provide a better and more fun game

[@emmetstanevich2121]

I think that'd deviate too much from cartridge to be reasonable. Most restrictions are either bans in the teambuilder (such as evasion and OHKO moves,) or enforced by simulating RNG (such as sleep and freeze clause, which essentially just act like you simply didn't get the proc when something is already asleep/frozen.) It could be done for an OM mode (like AAA or Hackmons,) but I can't see it being implemented in the official tiers. GameFreak made the hazards permanent, so we're stuck with the ramifications of that decision, whether we like it or not.

[@graylyhen9490]

@Emmet Stanevich I said if I was on the devs, not a mod. If I was working with Game Freak and saw that this one decision over a decade ago boned so many Pokemon. Also sleep is a gentleman's agreement which is fine, but freeze clause in gens where it's not built in is just changing the game but people don't wanna admit that so hopefully it's never pushed

[@algar6616]

Only bkc could tackle such a take

[@tuberialolicon-tanuki6533]

As a casual player, I don't touch the current ladder without a full team good against hazards, like 4 HDB + a levitate + maybe a sweeper meant to get in once so it can be whatever, having the basic mechanic of switching restricted is too much for me to handle, and I'm certainly not preventing those hazards from piling up on my side. When team building I don't even mind, the worst offender, SR that much by itself, but having to deal with that and spikes, ouch. If i had to pick just one kind of hazard I would go with spikes, I like all the nuances around it: needing three turns to be in full power, the controversial second layer, the defensive value of flying and levitate mons (which you likely already carry cause earthquake immunity), the heavy potential downside of having your three layers taken down. Finally, when it comes to seeing any of this in the real world, I don't see any related change happening in the main formats. But there is still ADV OU and hack formats like Hoenn Gaiden which honestly looks dope.

[@Espathradreaming]

I would much prefer if hazards had a rework to rocks being the only hazard and them not being type effective and the removal of heavy duty boots. Imo hazards provide a good aspect to the game but have gotten to the point out of control, definitely with the current methods to deny removal (gholdengho)

[@hugopereira2241]

Hey I found you hehe

[@soulblazer2392]

Yeah. Stealth rock making certain types worse and forcing them to run boots isn't balanced in any way.

[@Grovyle90]

Only BKC Uploads a video where he leaves the room without cutting that portion of the vid 🤣

[@oneobstyboi5697]

Babe wake up, new BKC video dropped

[@Slaking_]

I think GF definitely had the right idea with HDB, allowing Pokemon "ruined" by Rocks like Zard, Moltres, and Volcarona to bypass their crippling weakness. Unfortunately, as with many of GFs sound ideas, they didn't think it through very well and didn't expect Pokemon like Blissey to use it to bypass one of the most reliable means of chipping them down. Ultimately, Hazards as overpowered as they may be cannot be removed because they're simply the founding pillar of the singles meta. Gen 8 is a great example of how unfun a meta can be when Hazards are safely bypassed, so hopefully GameFreak doesn't decide to go nuclear on Hazards in future generations.

[@lordperson5762]

They don't care about singles doubles are the format their concerned with because its quick now with gamefreak pretending to care about singles they are actively making it worse I much prefer the jankier older gens where balance would have never been a concern because they do not know how to balance a game so we end up with bs like tapu koko cinderace galar darmanitan and dracovish I kind of just believe gen 4 and onwards comp pokemon went downhill because they tried standardizing and balancing things wich led to different pokemon becoming less unique as movesets grew Exponentially

[@Dankfort]

We could just ban rocks and keep the other hazards

[@gigalodon14]

I feel like the general consensus is that Hazards are fine but Stealth Rocks in particular are too centralizing and somewhat toxic

[@EarthSpirit.easyzdota]

Its a tale as old as time. “If thou has passive regen, thou need passive damage” - Jesus Christ psalm4:20

[@snickercherry]

Yknow, "SR is so broken!" used to be like, 1000 ELO shitter, just started on Showdown a week ago kinda talk. And I and I'm sure a lot of other people used to clown on that idea. There was this mindset of you had to be fine with SR and stuff if you were a REAL competitive player. And now, ever since HDB, it's like... Maybe they were on to something. Someone else mentions it down below, but would SR even be allowed if it weren't such an old move? If we got Rocks in gen 8, when they wholesale threw out the main mechanic of the generation, would they let Rocks stay? I think SR and hazards and stuff being such a point of pride for the old guard led to it just becoming a part of Smogon culture, where it entered a self-perpetuating feedback loop of "we've always done it this way so we'll continue to do it". And maybe it's time to re-evaluate, maybe. I'm also glad you very briefly mentioned Ttar sand in ADV! That's also another point worth considering, though I don't think it's necessarily as pressing. It's just sort of accepted that that's a thing we're okay with. Should we be? I don't know! But it can become very constraining.

[@BatmannotBruceWayne1]

30 seconds in and we’re talking about gen 5 OU Wouldn’t be a BKC video without it

[@MetalCruncherYGO]

!lcs

[@BatmannotBruceWayne1]

@@MetalCruncherYGO Dragonlink good now

[@bmac4]

The only hazards/passive damage I've ever thought to be truly a problem were the pebbles and permasand post-Gen 3. Spikes takes several turns to get the most out of and are prone to getting removed like anything else before getting fully set up, and flyers are immune. Toxic spikes have a way to remove them without even using a move and both flyers and steels are immune. Permasand became more of an issue when power creep shifted the types of items used and when Pokemon got a defensive bonus in sand, especially since you could set it up for free with TTar. The problem with stealth rock is that the moment they're up entire types are at their mercy, which especially sucks when rocks hit much of the game for a quarter or even half health. Not only that, every mon that doesn't have magic guard gets hit by them. Hell even plenty of neutral mons run boots in large part because of rocks.

[@WilliamSyler]

What if hazards have a limited usage before they have to be reset? Spikes can hurt a switch-in 10 times before fading and Stealth Rock can go for 5. Or any arbitrary number, depending on balance.

[@leoambard3134]

I think the only get where hazards might be broken is 5, but even then it’s a bit of a stretch

[@tytohbird]

Ferrothorn is the perfect thumbnail for this video

[@gretchling5012]

having played a competitive pokemon clone with something like this, i think a more "vanilla" entry hazard would be good. just make spikes hit non-grounded pokemon and then get rid of boots and stealth rocks. i like how hazards impact decision making on a turn-to-turn basis, but having them interact with the type chart makes them matter more in the teambuilder than they should. theoretically there's a world where pokemon is designed for competitive singles play, and specific powerful pokemon are designed with their relationship to entry hazards in mind, but this is a children's game. that ain't happening

[@paz8723]

Heavy Duty Boots Blissey and Slowbro give me so much pain

[@OshawottLuke]

Boots were made so the x4 weak to rock mons aren't nearly useless, and also to aid the x2 weak to rock. But I think rocks are way too OP when it comes to the mons weak to rock. I'd raher have Rocks than Spikes because it's nice gameplay-wise how the damage isn't the same to every mon, but I think the damage done to mons that are weak to rock shouldn't really be x2 and x4, but rather just a bit more than neutral. So for example, Chansey gets 12% from Rocks, Arcanine gets idk 16% and a x4 weak like Volcarona gets 20%. Because 25% and 50% is waay too much, I feel like that change would've been way better than adding the boots. Especially since now boots are the mandatory item slot for so many mons, but I'd rather take 20% with Volcarona and still have the option to use other items since boots wouldn't be existing with such a change to rocks. I'd say nerf, and it would be, but more than nerf I think it'd be a fix, since the mere existence of rocks only allowing x4 weak mons to enter the field ONCE if they can't recover HP is broken. A good 16% and 20% would be reasonable, you would still want to protect your team from rocks but it wouldn't be so punishing to enter the field as taking a full quarter or half of your health.

[@lordperson5762]

Imo rocks should just be AA spikes and spikes should be the usual mines they have been both stackable with low chip damage in single doses needing to be stacked for large chip damage The weakness poking kinda bs unless there are hazards that weakness pokes for each type wich at that point is practically just hate spikes at that point Actually not a bad idea on my part But only having rocks that hate one type is incredibly cringe

[@hppern3971]

A big thing for me with Rocks, Spikes, and even old Sandstorm has been wondering if I could just see the other world where you still have versions of those 3 things, but it hit different types. I like all of the mechanics on their own, but especially with Stealth Rock or Sandstorm, I sometimes get an itch for "stealth Rock but it's Grass or Fire type" or "Sandstorm's effects but a different 3 types" (I've also long wished that SR capped at 25% health,, maybe even reducing what x2 weak Pokemon take from it)

[@emmetstanevich2121]

The main problem with that is the fact that all hazards stack independently with each other. If you add too many versions of stealth rock, it might get to the point where some pokemon lose 100% of their health through hazards alone.

[@albi2066]

@@emmetstanevich2121 in gen8 with dynamax, you can kill aurorus with copperajah Gmax move and all hazards

[@zdelrod829]

If a mechanic is so prevelant to where it causes Game Freak to make an item to SPECIFICALLY negate it, it is probably broken.

[@graylyhen9490]

You have to include hazards and hazard removal in your team builder, removal which is far more limited in older gens, or else you'll lose. Your walls should work against offense but they don't because they automatically lose health before getting in. You have to carefully play around hazards or else you'll lose. You have to get hazards off so you don't lose to walls. This sounds an awful lot like what people say when a Pokemon is banworthy except, much like the should be banned Scald, this is in every tier and every gen (the gens to lesser extents) and is inescapable and you are forced to play with and against it

[@muffin2221]

Tbh HDB seems like it was made from necessity due to Stealth Rocks specifically being overtuned as hell in my opinion. Seriously, unlike Spikes (and toxic spikes) Rocks hits EVERYONE on switch in with few exceptions, flying typs and levitators can just avoid it but, Rocks? Everyone eats that damage and its even worse with weakness and resistance damage calc. Boots seemed like a band aid solution for what was honestly an overpowered, overcentralizing move that got away with murder for almost a decade. Ima keep putting SR on every team anyway

[@noahweeks3643]

At 24:19, you said "more on spikes abusers in a second", I think this is what you forgot to finish speaking about. This seems like an entire video in itself, so good luck answering here lol

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

oh yeah... I was planning on making one for adv anyway

[@hailthequeenFM]

Competitive Pokémon had grown so reliant on hazard *cough* stealth rocks *cough* an item that protect you from it basically break the game, then almost every player get an aneurism and a hate-boner.

[@U4eUh]

the intention that STRONG psuedos or pokemon in general that are 4x weak to Stealth Rocks is a great Concept to neutralize a Volcarona type figure. However the limited range of mons it actually destroys doesn’t balance with the amount of Pokémon that it should if hazards should be an Element of the metagame. Toxic Spikes are a great idea to add to the table (and arguably terrains was part of the element development) but I believe there should be more stat variations of Sticky Web or hazards to lean in to this element (especially how hard they nerf recovery and stall hope they continue keeping a pulse on it)

[@JohnHunterPlayerr]

In lets go... It just kills.

[@Goofy8907]

I'd love if you could plan out a little on what you are gonna talk about It's a little jumpy now I still like the effort with the content, keep it up!

[@shellnut8224]

I'd say it depends on the metagame, in GSC and ADV then they are fine, but in later gens with how obscenely offensive they can get (especially in gen 5's case) then I'd say they might be a bit too strong (I barely played gen 8/9 so I have no idea how boots affects this) since having to take such ridiculously strong hits with rocks up it just can make it somewhat obscene to deal with a lot of the major offensive threats in the metagame. Even just rocks doing resisted or neutral damage can make some things way harder to deal with than they should be. A comparison I heard once (I don't remember who said it) was that putting rocks up is like giving half a life orb to every Pokemon on your team without the drawbacks, (since lefties healing comes in at the end of the turn while rocks does damage immediately, rocks makes your average strong hit that does 40% to something deal around 15% more damage against rocks resists, hence half a life orb boosts worth). Which, in such volatile later gen metagames, turns already strong Pokemon into impossible to stop monsters (without magic guard ofc) But anyways, that's just my 2 cents on the topic.

[@calsalitra4689]

In gen 8/9 boots bake SR are lot harder to justify, but at the same time SR are the ONLY hazard justifying boots. The power of SR is reduced by boots, but every Pokemon forced to run boots is a Pokemon that can't use a better item.

[@smallman9787]

I may be tweaking but this topic is remarkably similar to debating the systems of economic organization. This discussion has the same pattern as debating about capitalism it's weirdly deja vu

[@boop53]

i feel like the only reason they buffed defog is because of rocks and rocks alone

[@BluThundr]

I like Spikes, I like Toxic Spikes, I like Sticky Webs, I do not like Stealth Rock.

[@charisma2check584]

So two things. One, I am surprised that some one with your reach couldn't hold a no spikes gen 2 tournment small scale just to see what happens to really test and see these what if questions. Second like two videos ago you asked for video ideas, I like the idea "of what if?" videos aka what if abilities where in gen 1 and just you guessing at that meta. What if megas where in gen 2. what if physcial special split never happened. I think it would be a cool idea to explore why game freak made it so you could get 3 layers of spikes instead of just 1 but its also wide enough of a series idea you could get some more main steam pokemon people watching your channel. That or what made earth worm jim so good as a player? What made Bloo the chad of her age? What made Lavos the gen 2 god? and almost doing a how good was charzard script but for players.

[@Fivekato5]

Cool bro we're in gen9 now

[@ignaciofernandezedp]

Rocks should be like Spikes, 3 layers that have flat increments in damage of 12%, 18% and 25% and maybe make some tipes inmune to them like flying types are with Spikes (Maybe rock is a good choice). Either that or they making a flat damage of 12% to every Pokemon and double that damage on flying types to 25%

[@nehegavshdb]

Another BKC video Another fine day

[@scrapyarddragon]

Spikes and T.Spikes are fine, but stealth rocks screwing anything rock-weak over just because you clicked it one time is a problem.

[@avet4952]

webs is chill too

[@sealeo5772]

I'll go tell Zapdos that it sucks after gen 3... Saying rocks are bad because rock weak pokemon are literally killed by ever switching in is just wrong.

[@IschmarVI]

@@sealeo5772 most rocks-weak pokemon ARE significantly affected by the presence of rocks. Ungrounded mons like Zapdos are less affected though because they don't get ALSO hit by spikes as are sand-immune pokes as they at least passively heal after losing way too much health on switching in. And yes, even pokes like Zapdos dislike the presence of rocks. But Zapdos is simply SO good that it decides to give zero f***s :D

[@prthedisaster]

So many Bocchi the nicknames

[@PointedHeels1]

I can definitely say over the years it does just get kind of tiring dealing with hazards constantly been playing since gen 4. With that said imagine an ice type rocks 😂

[@soulblazer2392]

Imagine if spikes' damage was based on type. That might be more busted than stealth rock.

[@IschmarVI]

imagine spikes would still be like it is but would hit ungrounded mons. That would be broken as heck, lol

[@zememerr2329]

Heatran’s final hour

[@analoghabits9217]

If entry hazards only triggered when using a damaging move to enter combat, so defensive pokemon hug the rim

[@sealeo5772]

Everyone who says that rocks immediately destroy all flying or bug types doesn't know what they're talking about and is most likely reaching for something to blame for a specific pokemon being bad. If a pokemon is worth using, it's worth using alongside hazard removal, Volcarona and Moltres prove that not even a 4x rock weakness can make something impossible to use and Charizard didn't become an OU superstar when it got access to boots.

[@lordnatu]

Volcarona is good in spite of rocks and Moltres just sucks. There are rocks-weak pokemon that can thrive despite rocks because they're offensive, but stealth rocks cripples any defensive rock-weak pokemon into the ground.

[@ricardoludwig4787]

I do feel like I need to defend the hazard situation of one gen in particular, which is gen 7. I can't say much about the earlier gens, but they feel powerful in a balanced way since the main point of them is adjusting the tempo of the game in a way? So many good pokemon get rocks and defog that their utility is more on the threat of making the defog attempt exploitable, but that's not trivial like in gen 6 since the defog pokemon are some of the best in the game and many have sets that don't even use it. Combine that with spikes having that usefulness diminished due to that but also being in 2 of the best Pokemon in the game and it really added a lot without feeling over centralizing. In my short time playing other gens i notice how much I miss that, be it RBY not letting me get as much progress from good positioning, gen 4 making everything work around the universality and difficulty to remove them or the tragedy that is gen 8

[@Ankhaunt]

real problem is stealth rock does damage based on rock types. This makes Ice, bug the weakest types in the game worse. It's good to counter strong flying types and fire types. If they reduce stealth rock damage numbers then it's good. Otherwise you need to have rapid spin and defog. Otherwise switching is very difficult. Couple it with toxic and regenerator pokemons. NO brainer gameplay just keep switching without any drawback.

[@Eltipoquevisteayer]

What if Boots were introduced since gen 2

[@Leangreen69]

Rocks are fine, the main issue is it’s distribution. Personally I feel like it should be a rock type exclusive that can be absorbed by other rock types. Singles are way too slow and stally and rocks help speed it up. We need a grass type version to knock water and ground down a peg.

[@thefinalskarm1754]

all i'm saying is heavy duty boots to 1 copy per deck honestly item clause in general tbh, sick of "oh cool this is scarfed" oh cool this is ALSO scarfed and now my counters are dead this is mainly a ladder issue though regarding item clause and a bo1 scenario.

[@IschmarVI]

tbh, scarf in itself is a good item. Its that the opponent cannot know that your are scarfed until you unexpectedly outspeed them is bad. There should be an indication for the scarf boost imo.

[@ZyrusSmith]

Yes, they are. Because broken means something doesn't work.

[@Rob_69]

Please do a video on why mew would / wouldnt be okay in ADV OU, seems weird celebi and jirachi are allowed but the original mythical isnt.

[@emmetstanevich2121]

It's probably a combination of a less exploitable typing (pure psychic, as opposed to being ground/fire weak or 4x weak to bug,) along with the ability to learn any TM would probably be too much to handle in the teambuilder.

[@lukaskaufhold2354]

Short answer: yes Long answer: yes

[@Genewrecc]

On showdown I own the name “ban stealth rocks” 😂😂😂

[@willjoyce5013]

It's kind of amusing how you guys a meta like you'll see in say Magic. (Hyper) Aggro beats slow Control decks, Midrangey goodstuff piles stomp the aggro and then Midrange gets beaten down hard by grindier Control strats. We have Combo thrown in, which tends to beat the former two and have issues versus the Control strats

[@LotusTheWise]

What no hazards does to a mf

[@yungmuney5903]

Stealth rock is.

[@eric2051]

Would it be better if hazards just stay like 3-5 turns 8 if you have an item ( a different for rock and spikes ) so if you kill the setter its just gone without reling one roming it with a move ?

[@prophet_of_venus]

All hazards should have a timer like weather or screens

[@erikeconomou6487]

In a perfect world Smogon realizes how unhealthy hazards are and ban it especially in a world where a pokemon/item is required to counter a pokemon its considered unhealthy

[@mintx1720]

The most damning evidence is in 3v3 with almost no switching, hazards are still used to break sashes and push things into KO range.

[@Iradium228]

Personally I think, remove boots and spikes, make rocks do spikes' neutral damage and stack like spikes to 3 layers. That way nothing is overly punished for being rocks weak but nothing is overly favoured by being rocks resistant.

[@darkgerry92]

Not entry hazards, just stealth rock.

[@willjoyce5013]

I dislike how crucial hazards are but I feel like a meta sans them would also need switch moves hit as there's little downside if not getting clocked by entry hazards

[@KindaKaon]

I think boots are necessary - without them, rocks are just stupid and make some typings completely unplayable. Bad type matchups exist, but a Pokemon being completely unable to switch in just because it was unlucky enough to have 4x vs Rocks is a bit unhealthy. I think that maybe boots should be subject to an items clause, because they do facilitate stall a little *too* much (especially in Gen 8), but I wouldn’t remove them completely

[@SarinTheBaron]

Old timer who hasn't played much competitive since 2018, I personally never liked SR. I mainly played on showdown and Pokémon Online, and though I'm not going to say I'm a master I did fairly well *never* using hazards on my team. I ofc had to build entirely around them though, as you've said they've defined every meta they've been in. My buddies would gentleman's to no hazards a lot in gen 6, and I remember having a lot of fun with it personally. I'd love to see a series with no hazards just to shake things up. There are a lot of gems waiting to be picked up and played in a meta with no hazards.

[@CoralReaper707]

I don't think hazards are the issue. It's really just stealth rock being such a poorly designed move.

[@Rose-ez7yn]

How so?

[@CoralReaper707]

@@Rose-ez7yn it's really just the 50% and 25% chip for quad weak and regular weak Pokemon respectively.

[@Rose-ez7yn]

​@@CoralReaper707 and how is that a bad thing exactly?

[@CoralReaper707]

@@Rose-ez7yn Maybe not a bad thing but I do feel like it's a bit much.

[@avet4952]

@@Rose-ez7yn makes some pokemon almost useless. gen 3 ou has alot of zard and moltres, and while they fell off in some ways, moltres went to uu (iirc) in gen 8 cuz of hdb, because it wouldnt lose 50% on switchin. i dont like hdb, but it shows how you can easily increase diversity in a metagame when pokemon dont lose 25/50% on switch in.

[@Veinelso]

Rocks super effective should be heavily nerfed, making 2x weakness take 1/6(16.6%) and 4x weakness take 1/5 (20%) should be a good change

[@geoluread3436]

I think what it comes down to is whether the game is interesting or not. For example, should we ban switching for being broken? Obviously not, because it promotes strategy and makes the game fun. Maybe the meta would still be fun without hazards, but it's generally agreed upon we should avoid changing the game if we can help it. So regardless of how over-centralizing hazards are, you should only want to ban them if you think they detract from the depth of the game rather than enhance it.

[@Nako3]

Unrelated comment but Im glad they removed Scald :D

[@ryan_ford522]

I'll probably never stop being a hater of hazards tbh Moslty played Gen 3-6 on shoddy/PO/Showdown, but also not gonna not use them just because I don't like them