Black spiral dancers in Werewolf: the Apocalypse

The fan favorite bad guys from werewolf!

[@WorldofLos]

I remember when I introduced BSDs into my story my players ended up falling in love with them do much they wanted to convert. I was like, there goes my story, lol.

[@hadesmcfadden2982]

BSD lore is terrible, in that terrible meaning tragic and sadistic. I get players want to play "bad guys" sometimes, but depending on deep you take the BSD's they get into some horrific shit...which if that's the agreed upon chronicle great...but if you're mixing it up it would the equivalent of tossing a Chaotic Evil PC into a party of mostly good aligned chars.

[@margisama]

One of my favorite characters I ever played in WTA was a Black Spiral 'ronin' with pure breed 5 (so she had the white coat), but was adopted by the Children of Gaia. She took a particular pleasure in killing black spirals and even killed her own father (a high ranking hive leader). Ailsa Bishop, Swift Claws Like Silver, Child of Gaia Ahroun.

[@laucorn123]

I love the black spiral dancers :D Though if I could I would love the chance to play a White Howler. Possibly justify it via a white howler ancestor with the white howler gene as an atavasm (sp?).

[@naciabell7903]

GUESS WHAT!? WEREWOLF THE APOCALYPSE IS GETTING ITS OWN GAME AT LONG LAST!!! Just announced look it up.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

We'll see how it turns out :)

[@naciabell7903]

Indeed we will. So...Which tribe or nation would you like to play Hammered? Just out of curiosity.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Well, Red Talons and Wendigo are my favorite tribes, and ones I'd like to play in a table top game. In a videogame I don't think either would work too well as a kind of representative of the Garou in a general sense, because of their strong tribal characteristics. I'd think if you wouldn't get to choose your tribe in the game, the player would be one of the milder tribes, like a Child of Gaia, or a Fianna etc. We'll see. But yeah, if I could choose, it would be one of those two :)

[@naciabell7903]

Ah, keepers of the music, stories, and lore of the Garou. And the Peacekeepers Very nice choice. Any idea which camp you would be in for either?

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Neither :D I think if I were a Garou, I'd want to be a Bone Gnawer :)

[@AwakesBeforeSun]

The White Howlers story is sad. The Bunyip is the most sad of all the fallen garou.

[@Anamizuki]

There was no kickstarter for V20, actually. The book was meant to be just a Con exlusive for older fans of White Wolf. But when the creators realised there was a huge interest towards this book, they made it available through their store. When THAT turned out to be a huge success, they pretty much decided to revive oWoD. Pretty amazing, in my opinion.

[@Reket11]

Nice vid. I'd like to add a few things: 1. I don't think BSD should be shown as that physically twisted - this makes it too easy for the players to classify them as monsters that should be killed. It's much better to not show them as that different in appearance but in philosophy. At first the players could not even know what they are dealing with. They can even become friends (even lovers - the BSD wont mind after all) with those other werewolves (masking Wyrm taint is a good idea). When you finally reveal the truth, don't do any backstabbing - make them reveal their point of view. This will create a sad situation where - 2 groups of friends fighting for enemy sides (or you may go for a simple back-stab, but it's a waste of potential). Alternatively, they can start as normal garou and turn to the Wyrm at some point. 2. Working with the Sabat? Sure, but any vampire can be a potential ally - remember that the BSD don't mind working with any creature if it benefits them. This means that BSD can be playing 2 sides or staying neutral yet friendly in any vampire against vampire conflict. And who would say the Camarilla prefer, tree-hugging werewolves that despise them and want to kill them all, or the other ones that they can work with? 3. The BSD where 1/10 of all garou in the 90-ties, now this number should be much higher. The ways they increase it: yes, they take on metis, they capture garou and make them dance the BS Dance, they mate. Capturing garou is extremely effective - they use ever trick in the book (using cannon-fooder fomori, allies, banes, Pentex weapons) in a fight, and so they have the advantage (the GM should remember this). Each such garou is a +1 for the BSD and a -1 for the rest. As he or she joins, he or she reveals secrets that can lead to the capture of others. The problem with BSD mating is that metis are barren. There is a mention however about the BSD working on a rite to make metis fertile. If you introduce this as accomplished in your chronicle, you can make BSD an even greater threat. 4. The BSD are trying to free the Wyrm - this does not however mean the destruction of everything. Corrupting the world will change it, no doubt, but how would it kill it? This is of course in the GM hands, but the forces of the Wyrm clearly want to dominate the world, not to destroy it. This makes Wyrm domination the future and the garou, those who want to slow down it' coming. 5. The BSD point of view is actually quite convincing. They want to free the Wyrm and restore the balance of the universe. The Wyrm is fractured, so it's agents seam chaotic at times, but it's fighting it's shackles and the BSD are helping. Garou on the other hand are trying to keep the Wyrm bound and save one planet by not restoring reality. It's quite easy to see them as the true bad guys. If you exploit this way of reasoning, you can even turn your players to the Wyrm.

[@derbyflory8590]

Wyrm is not evil. Wyrm is necessary.

[@colincruickshank7679]

nice to hear this after so long. - i came back to hear your northern-european accent! im a Scotsman playing with a "Scandanavian" "accent" character, so tihs is great research. The game is Cyberpunk 20XX ;) . You sound very real ( duh ), and i sound like a cheap cartoon! If you ever want to run a Dwarven ( Scottish) game, im in big time! :D thanks for everything! P.S. i wached your whole warewolf game and was simmilarly blown away by your whole vamp game with the Gentleman in the 80's! everyone knows that the game is art, but you put it down on Vellum!

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Haha, thanks man. I remember you from back in the day, but I've got to tell ya, if you want to get a better sampling of a Finnish accent, you'll have to look no further than the RPG channel of "Wintersome" on youtube. His accent belongs in a science exhibit, it's so spot on. He must have missed his calling as an F-1, or rally driver. :D

[@dianachavez7418]

So many different types of Were so many choices endless possibilities awesome

[@Anamizuki]

And that Howler picture reminds me far too much of Sonic the Hedgehog to be taken seriously.

[@hellsing507]

I once was able to get a werewolf vampire crossover with the Camerilla and Garou. The idea was to have the partnership be very secretive, the Main body of the Camerilla and Garou Nation did not know of it but because of a Glass Walker and A Malkavian who had a friendship with one another the group was able to meet and work together on neutral grounds, they disliked the fact they had to work together but they had to do it because the Sabbat and Black Spiral Dancers where encroaching on Garou and Camerilla territory. So the idea was to have this secretive group be used to combat the Sabbat and Spirals. The game actually worked out really well and what I loved was the interactions between the Vampire and Werewolf players. One of our players was a Get Of Fenris who could Barely stand the sight of vampires and he was literally having to make rolls to stop himself from letting vampire characters die in Combat. There was a Tremere, A Brujah, a Malkavian, Fenrir, Gnawer, and Glass Walker

[@Jaiyeson]

Good job brother, this vid brought me back to fond memories around a table with friends.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Thanks man :)

[@ArphenMaethor]

and seemingly you cant see the greater good? ask your favorite nephandi for an answer, they see even more than the bsd ever did or ever will. Every servant of the wyrm is but a pawn for the Nephandi who really know the Agenda, embrace it and follow it like the wyrms fingers on which the puppets of the bhaali, bsd, femori etc. dance on dark treads

[@ErisBlackheart]

Well, it's all up to the ST and remember, the rules are just guide lines anyways - what we wound up doing is creating a Rite that could ONLY be done in Pangea. We also needed a garou of each auspice to perform it and two other garou to watch over them while things were being taken care of - I wish I could describe it better then that, but it's been a really really long time since I've seen that character sheet - I think they spent a year in Pangea, mostly performing said Rite, but it worked.

[@JBGarrison72]

Wow, great commentary on BSD's! Thanks for posting Hammered. :)

[@ZigCopasetic]

Love the history of these guys. They are an awesome evil, corrupted and with a purpose.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

I didn't put down any money for vampire since I actually found out about it only after the kickstarter had already closed. I did put the money down for the deluxe book for werewolf though. So yeah, about 150€ poorer, but at least I'll be getting a collectors item of my favorite game out there :A

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Oh well in that case there's no need to like know all you can. Because in the end even if you're new to the system, it's really easy for the GM to just guide you through it. When you're playing regular humans there's no need to worry about knowing enough info about a race or the setting or stuff like that either.

[@AwakesBeforeSun]

Best story about the white howlers can be found in who's who among Garou.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

You said it. Good god all mighty those clan pictures were nausea inducing as all hell. The clan art was the main reason why I didn't put the money down for the book. The leather cover might be pretty, but good thing we ain't judging the book by it's cover, since the inside looked like hyena doo doo!

[@Anamizuki]

Yeah, in the general the pictures are beautiful and fit each tribe perfectly. It helps that,unlike with V20, the creators had fans comment on the sketches. And lo and behold, no weird Gangrel-like pictures XD

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Thanks! I got the image from google image search. That white howler picture is from the upcoming 20th anniversary werewolf book. They posted that as a teaser on their kickstarter site :)

[@jeevesosiris]

Nice Steiner picture

[@hammeredshitsteak]

It sure is! I used to be a big fan back in the day, and a friend of mine painted an oil painting of him for me as a goof. :D

[@jeevesosiris]

@@hammeredshitsteak Always good to find a pro-wrestling fan also into WOD games. Great video. I run a VTM game and came looking for inspiration on adding a Black Spiral Dancer to the game as a bad guy.

[@Anamizuki]

Where did you get that good quality picture of the Howlers? O.o About the BSDs, I really like them as foes, and as darker PCs. They have their own culture and motivation, and they aren't tied to the Garou Nation like the Sabbat is to the Camarilla. BSDs do their own stuff more. Also, the fact that they sometimes ARE a better place for a Metis to be is a rather nice touch of dramatic irony. Fianna REALLY shot themselves in the leg. In any case, a really nice video.

[@t.va.6611]

To a person who is not very familiar with W:tA at first i was like "wtf, why the hell he talks about white howlers, the title says "black spiral dancer"?!", after an half a minute i deducted that the tribes are connected and/or is the same (in a way).

[@TheWarchiefZekeJaeger]

Richelle Roe The "White Howlers" became the "Black Spiral Dancers" during the invasion to the Wyrm realm,they got trapped in the "Black Spiral" and got attack by creatures,those who wasn't killed during the "Black Spiral" got corrupted by the Wyrm and started to workship him,so they named themselfs "The Black Spiral Dancers".

[@Lastoutrider]

BSDs cross over with vampires at all levels not just the sabat. BSDs and Cam vampires are on the board of Pentex.

[@sillygoblin0]

Even the Sabbat have standards. They keep this alliance on a short leash.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

I really like the tribe art work of the 20th anniversary book. Not very "dark" but very delicious!

[@Anamizuki]

Oh dear, the artists also put the finished one of high quality to his own blog XD

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Hmm, I ain't making promises. I don't like to take on the obligation of doing all the tribes or all the clans or anything, witch is what happens if you do even one :P

[@Onionkid99]

That's pretty cool, the White Howlers being the reason the Romans couldn't take the whole of the British isles. Was Boudica a werewolf? Do the Werewolves influence Roman history besides events in Britain? With Vampires being so influential in Rome and Carthage, I was wondering if the Werewolves had a say too. I really like the story behind the White Howlers becoming the Black Spirals. "Gaze not into the abyss..." and all that.

[@berner]

Black Spiral Dancers all the way.

[@chumasu1]

Well darn.

[@sillygoblin0]

Actually Pentex and Freak Legion " the worst tentacle of the Wyrm in my mind" are B.S.D's greatests allies.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

You're very welcome. Glad you enjoyed it :)

[@MrFantocan]

The Fianna did not beat the Dancers alone, they had the Get of Fenris with them. And the creation of the Dancers has many different versions wich I beleive are all true: *Some fell as you said cuse of their rite of passage. *Others fell because their Kinfolk were being raped by Fomori and they went to defend them and got baited intu Malfeas. *Lastly the Romans were winning the war (with help from the Ventrue) so the Howlers already a bit tainted summoned the Wyrm that obliterated the Romans, but that was the last straw.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

For sure man!

[@HeathbrookBadhwar]

BSD 101! Awesome video, very well told. I have to agree with you on that the book of the Wyrm is a great supplement, almost mandatory. Loving the return of the Werewolf Videos of late. Keep em comin ;P... Actually I do have a request for you, if you are up to it; I'd like to hear your thoughts on Fomori.

[@GarouLady]

::Laughs:: God I miss this roleplaying.

[@cheweweboonsuzyo7230]

that woman is Zyzhack the wyrm's chosen one. greetings from Mexico

[@hammeredshitsteak]

It's all in the "book of the wyrm" source book. That's at least where I got all this info from :) The second edition one (the one with the woman with the lashwhip on the cover).

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Hmm fine idea. I'll see if I can come up with enough to say about them to fill a whole video :) And thanks man!

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Haha that's hilarious. Too bad :) That happens sometimes. There's a lot of settings where the ad guys are just made too cool and it's hard not to want to play them.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Oh for sure :)

[@hammeredshitsteak]

There's a lot of different historical events that were made into werewolf context, just like with vampire. But since the werewolf tribes are very territorial, it's easy to see historical events in that manner. I mean when the vikings invaded Ireland, that was the get of fenris going to fight the fianna. I can't remember too many hostorical werewolves in the roman empire though. If I remember correctly the brujah were soviets and the get of fenris were nazis :D

[@ArphenMaethor]

crossovers are in fact very possible. Take vampire & ghul, mage & fae, demon and wraith, mage and mummy, mage and vampire (tremere / tytalus) or fae / vampire. To some degree even fera / mage is doable. werewolf & fae is indeed very likely. I see no problems there. promethean and mage is very doable as well. just hunters have it hard but hunter / ghoul is again very likely to take place.

[@Anamizuki]

The Bloodlines were better, luckily. I did put my money down for the book, and the scary part is, that up until the PDF/book was yours, you didn't know what the art would look like. So the surprise was a bit...massive. Now, granted, the book DOES have good pieces. But then it has pieces where the artist didn't even know colour theory..

[@robcrowley8546]

I recognise your face and voice. Didn't you play The Ivory Wall with Gentleman Gamer?

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Yes indeed! Keen eye ;) If you're interested, you can check out the two recorded campaigns I've been running on my channel. The "Werewolf: The Dark Ages" one is complete, and the "DC Adventures" one is still on going. :)

[@robcrowley8546]

I will do. DC Adventures, eh? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Nein! It's Super VanHaagen!

[@zombiemistress]

If they made another TV show based on world of darkness material would you consider being a writer for such a show? They did it once before for vampire the masquerade "Kindred the embraced". Today I think a show about werewolves vs pentex & the wyrm would be more accepted.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Well I don't think there is any rule or any stuff on that in the books. BUT as the story teller of course you could do that if you so choose :D The only real thing with something like that would perhaps be that the white howler would most likely not be trusted by any of the other garou. So perhaps he'd masquerade as a silverfang or something. You're the story teller, you figure it out :D Don't let the books hinder your own creativity!

[@chumasu1]

Is it possible to play a non-spiral dancer White Howler?

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Well only if the game is set in the past before the time they turned. All white howlers are pretty much gone. But then again I guess anything is possible if you really want to. It just would be pretty much playing without the canon of the setting. I think Wendigo are pretty similar to the howlers. They might work fine.

[@theaegis5795]

love yer vids

[@sargentemery2427]

Well I was wondering I just got back into playing werewolf.... It's been so long. Any way I was wondering where you got the information for the white howlers rite of passage? So far white wolf has been only very cursory on what the white howlers were. I was just wondering were I might find more lore on blackspirals/whitehowlers. Mostly because I like to read werewolf material.

[@williamscott3008]

well I was thinking perhaps a group of bastet pumas were hidding them in a den realm. .is that a idea that would work given the Canon genre? ??!

[@hammeredshitsteak]

+William Scott Well to be honest it's not that important. I'm not a purist by any stretch when it comes to metaplot canon, so just do it if you think it'll be cool and interesting for your players.

[@williamscott3008]

Thanks hamer gotcha Canon genre is a guide not so much a set in stone thing

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Hehe if you were, I feel good about it :)

[@hammeredshitsteak]

No :A Do people make do that honestly?

[@sillygoblin0]

And according to the book of the Wyrm. A Black Spiral Dancers Metus Cub can be killed for any reason by anyone before the right of passage.

[@ThePhantomLion]

Subscribed. You and I should talk.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

PhantomLion "Well Maximus... Talk."

[@ThePhantomLion]

Well, the subject is kind of close to heart for me, not personal by any means but cherish-able enough, I seek a private audience with you if possible good sir. *offers a humble bow*

[@hammeredshitsteak]

PhantomLion well send me a private message. I'm not sure how it works on youtube these days, but that would be the way to do it.

[@ThePhantomLion]

I did so on your deviantArt

[@ThePhantomLion]

Sent it over, don't know if KZbin even works anymore.

[@hammeredshitsteak]

Which WoD game is it?

[@williamscott3008]

Ok first question is there ANY chance that a single white howlers elder escapes? ???????

[@hammeredshitsteak]

+William Scott Honestly I don't know. I'd like to think they all perished to make it more tragic, but if someone told me there's a supplement book with a White Howler NPC or something, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean it's way too tempting not to have at least one still alive, you know. But if you're running a Werewolf game and you'd like there to be a White Howler still around, go right ahead and make it so :)

[@OrganicRobot761]

For the longest time, White Wolf was downright INSISTENT that no White Howlers or kinfolk survived. But considering that the entry for the Grondr in the 20th anniversary edition of Changing Breeds mentions that there's a chance they could be brought back, I don't see any reason the same couldn't be true for the Howlers.

[@michealhoffstater9810]

I vaguely remember the possibility of the Glass Walkers (and maybe Children of Gaia? not sure) attempting to bring back other Changing Breeds via cloning and the like, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to do the same with the White Howlers themselves. I mean, shit, technically BSDs are the genetic descendants of the White Howlers, so it would actually be a pretty cool campaign idea to attempt to capture BSDs in an effort to examine their genes to attempt to bring back the White Howlers of old. Make it even more interesting by trying to find a Dancer Ronin and convince them to come to the Gaian Garou to help them in their attempts to bring back the old WH. This could also be consistent with some sort of quest in the Umbra to try and bring the White Howlers' totem to its former glory (if you like, add plot twist where one or more tribes tries to take the totem for their own ends, with varying reasons; Shadow Lords might want to take it because they're pragmatic and they don't want another Tribe to juggle against, Silver Fangs might insist that nobody else is 'worthy' of claiming the WH totem, etc.)

[@MrFantocan]

Nothing is impossible in the World of Darkness, but it is good to keep close to the cannon, but there was a game that was canceled "Heart of Gaia" in wich the story was the Howlers still had Kinfolk alive and the blood of the tribe survived so one boy was born as a White Howler Garou. I'm so sad the game was canceled the cinematics for it are in youtube, it had great story.

[@Kwipper]

As informative as this is, why does this guy sound like he speaks in run-on sentences?

[@hammeredshitsteak]

A common theory is that it's not this guy's first language, so he's doing the best he can with what he's go :).

[@DocFunkenstein]

+Kwipper Ursus Eh, he's the kind of die who thinks that when he says a Spanish word, he has to say it with a bad Spanish accent. So it's no surprise he talks like that, or brutalizes various words like Croatoan and Camarilla. (Like the vast majority of those people, they think it makes them sound more intellectual. As opposed to more idiotic, which is the reality of the situation.)

[@DocFunkenstein]

+Funkenstein Auto-correct, a plague no matter the platform.

[@Wolfways]

Scottish? No, they were picts.

[@MrFantocan]

Scotts are a mix of Picts and Celts.