N47WT V-35 Bonanza Inflight Structural failure

[@jasonchipkin]

Folks, we as controllers, though professional and (edit: sometimes) intimidating, have also a compassionate mode. Please just tell us you need help and we focus all of our attention to help you as best we can. You're still in command, but if you're trailing off course, we can't help you if you don't keep us in the loop. As we say to our fellow controllers, "DON'T KEEP SECRETS."

[@billfraser9731]

The controller sounded irritated and added to the pilot stress level. Maybe you controllers can not cause someone to crash their plane because the altitude is off 300 ft.

[@ShaunHensley]

What’s with all the scolding tones so prevalent amongst atc?

[@austinformedude]

@@billfraser9731 It was off much more than that and also deviating in altitude and heading. The controller would also like to keep airplanes from running into each other. The pilot did not communicate any reasons for deviation or ask for anything (as he should have). I don't blame the controller at all.

[@billfraser9731]

@@austinformedude that’s because you are clueless. And btw, I didn’t blame the controller, I said he didn’t help the situation. His whole demeanor changed when radar contact was lost and he figured out what happened. Apparently, you never experienced a controller that had anger issues let alone flown a plane.

[@jasonchipkin]

@@ShaunHensley We all have different personalities and abilities. Some are more confident and proficient than others (just as are pilots.) The harsher tones usually stem from anxiety that the pilot isn't following instructions and will cause either a loss of separation or MVA violation - all of which are high priority concerns. If you can simply state "emergency, standby" then those concerns are slightly muted, though we must continue to provide the necessary alerts. Sometimes pilots don't realize they're deviating (head down, reading iPad, etc.) so the voice may come across more direct in an attempt to draw your attention to the situation before you stray too severely.

[@not_listening2792]

I work as a mechanic on these aircraft. I have lost customers in similar circumstances. I would suggest to a aircraft owner that is flying less than 10 hours a year to hire a safety pilot to accompany them on a trip like this.

[@kevinmadore1794]

I suggest that anyone who cannot commit to fly at least 20-25 hrs per year should find another hobby. Such a pilot will never be very proficient, especially not in a high performance aircraft.

[@libertine5606]

I sold my Mooney Bravo because I wasn't using it enough to keep current. If I am not flying my plane at least every other week and don't have the time to go out in real IMC for training and not getting on the simulator to keep my procedures current then it's time to park the plane and pick it up again after a complete Instrument Proficiency Check or sell it. You will almost always be rustier than you think you are. Doctors are very busy people and Bonanzas and Mooney's can get you into trouble really fast.

[@kristensorensen2219]

To be instrument current requires 6hours and 6 approaches within 6 months of a IFR operation. Or an instrument competence check ride from a CFIA&I; is there any evidence of currency?

[@RAPR117]

@@kristensorensen2219hours of IMC are no longer a requirement. Just 6 approaches in IMC conditions with has to include at least 1 hold, intercept and tracking within the preceding 6 months.

[@mebeingU2]

@@Тольяттинец-н6ъ, if you can keep the aircraft within safe flying parameters during IMC, it’s doubtful that the wings will “fold up”.

[@chrismoody1342]

My father was a frequent pilot and owner of a Mooney. He traveled a 5 state area around Kansas related to his business. As much as he wanted to get home the same day. There were times he just said the weather is just not worth the risk and stayed where he was to fly another day. I feel fortunate that he was wise enough to humble himself and respect the power of weather over a small aircraft.

[@rainscratch]

And to know your limitations and not allow ego and get-their-itis to bring you into an unsafe situation.

[@LaggerSVK]

@@rainscratch very important in general. I see far too many people nowadays overestimate their abilities and it does not go just into flying / driving. Also their mental abilities are often more than not overestimated. Unfortunately it is hard to get a feedback for your actions nowadays. In flying / driving you are mostly killed which is not the sort of feedback for lessons learned. In being online the maximum is get someone pissed off

[@janvanhaaster2093]

@@LaggerSVK There is a golden rule how to become a good driver: make a lot of mistakes and survive all of them. The problem with flying is that the same rule applies, but that is much more difficult to survive your faults...

[@barbaravyse660]

Your third “sentence” is a clause. There should be a comma at the end that connects it to the next sentence.

[@fazole]

​@@janvanhaaster2093 You MUST have a professional mindset when flying, especially high performance aircraft. That means planning, thinking and performing AHEAD of the aircraft.

[@oldmusclecars9419]

In 1976 I was 10 years old and visiting my grandmother in Maryland, I am from Alabama. She owned a 1958 V tail Bonanza. In the early part of July we took off from the airport close to Easton Maryland and it was my second flight ever. After we took off and started climbing, we had an engine failure and had to crash land in a field. Neither my grandmother nor myself or her dog Hanz was injured. However the incident had a adverse impact on this 10 year old and I never flew again. Apparently my gram was a pretty good pilot to get us all home safely. She continued to own and fly V tails until her eyesight failed her in her 80’s. At that point she gave her Bonanza to my mom who she had convinced to learn to fly. They have both gone on to their rewards now but both loved flying in those V tails. RIP Lana Taft (mom) RIP Barbara Feader (gram).

[@DJ-il8iv]

What rewards? Were they Christians?

[@oldmusclecars9419]

@@DJ-il8iv yes but what difference would that make to you?

[@DJ-il8iv]

@@oldmusclecars9419 I was picking up one some “Christianese” with that phrase from the Bible- 1Corinthians 3:11-14. Peace of Christ.

[@a36538]

Was gram an author? "Self-Flying the African Bush" by Barbara L Feader

[@oldmusclecars9419]

@@a36538 yes, that was her.

[@johnfarrell428]

Having owned five Bonanzas and one Deboniar, none newer than my M-35, I was taught very early that if you get in trouble with serious turbulence , drop the gear, slow well BELOW maneuvering and keep the wings level. As stated by Juan, these Bonanzas have the lowest coefficient of drag in its class and will react quickly to turbulence of any kind. Been there done that after over 2,000 hours in Bonanzas

[@smark1180]

Finally, an intelligent comment.

[@tripencrypt]

For those of us that are not aviators (myself), could you explain how the airframe having the lowest coefficient of drag in its class, paired with turbulence is a bad combination/how that works together. Thanks in advance for your reply.

[@fazole]

​@@tripencrypt Maybe he means, since the Bonanza is a relatively fast, high performance light plane with high wing loading, it can go too fast in a dive very quickly. This means in turbulence it can get away from you real fast and exceed Vne, never exceed speed, quickly.

[@Elios0000]

@@fazole not just Vne but it can get over green line VERY easily in rough air

[@johnfarrell428]

@@tripencrypt I am not a design engineer; however, it laymen's terms the design of all aircraft have speeds which, if exceeded, some or all parts of the aircraft's control systems will fail. In Bonanzas, the most critical flight controls that fails first are USUALLY the ruddervators which are part of the tail structure. The pictures that Juan referenced in his video of the post crash appears to show the tail section completely torn from the fuselage structure. I am NOT an expert in post crash investigation; however, stress loads of the ruddervators was apparently so severe to cause the tail section to depart the aircraft, leading to complete loss of control (LOC) , which, by the way, is the leading cause of fatal accidents in general aviation. These are my personal opinions having flown similar Bonanzas for over twenty five years as well as following others in the Bonanza family with much more experience than mine.

[@Leo-fk9ch]

Current owner of a M35, previous owner of A35, S35 and V35. From the start of ownership back in the 70s, I was constantly warned of the v tail failures due to speed, and more importantly speed into turbulence. However, a more serious issue and cause for inflight breakup looms. One thing that was missed over the course of three “ thorough” annuals on my current M35 was interior corrosion of both ruddervators. Once bore scoped and photographed by my current mechanic, severe interior corrosion was discovered and both sent out for reskinning. It makes me wonder how many V tails undergo annuals where corrosion is missed, and during flight, a catastrophic failure occurs. I might add that the exterior of my ruddervators were corrosion free, no cracks and no indication of any issues. My suggestion is for owners to insist that their ruddervators be thoroughly checked, bore scoping the interiors an absolute must.

[@chetmyers7041]

You have a very good mechanic. Thank him for his thoroughness.

[@texasbeast239]

Can those magnesium items be painted, primered, coated, or otherwise treated on the inside to prevent corrosion buildup? I'm sure it would add some weight, but pounds are better than dead.

[@paulbedard9066]

Where did you have the boroscope done?

[@66Marz66]

@@texasbeast239 man mag just loves to cumble over time - very annoying that its use was so prevalent - i suppose who expected in 1958 or 59 that the airplane they were assembling would still be in regular service some 60 years later :/

[@RMJTOOLS]

@@texasbeast239When I worked at a BeechCraft dealership in the ‘80’s we had a corrosion control procedure using some incredibly toxic fluids that would kill the corrosion and put a conversion coating on it. Then it would be repainted with a chromate primer and an epoxy top coat. I would like to think that they at least do that now and maybe improved upon it.

[@Mlgraham22]

I was flying commercially a little later that day nearby from Evansville, IN to Atlanta and the weather was awful. Tornado warnings, etc. We took off in heavy rain in a Boeing 717 and never got on top until close to ATL. Moderate turbulence throughout, It was a very dynamic weather environment. Can’t imagine trying that in a single pilot GA plane. RIP.

[@lawman5511]

My first thought was weather.

[@jimamizzi1]

Me too, so sad to hear stories like this, didn’t realise how easy it is to exceed safety tolerances if you get into a bit of trouble RIP

[@brianzimmer5532]

Who still flies a 717 commercially?

[@gr33nshoes]

@@brianzimmer5532 101 are still active in commercial service, for example Delta.

[@AndersMcA]

@@brianzimmer5532 Everyone’s favorite Air Line, Delta!

[@tuxedotservo]

The 2 children were adult children, both set to graduate from LSU according to the article I found on it. There is a 3rd adult child that was not on board. sad story all around...

[@ymvrr]

They were headed to Louisville to pick up the third sibling (medical resident) to return for graduation ceremonies at LSU. Very tragic.

[@bruceerwin5430]

Absolutely tragic.

[@grumpy3543]

Oh god. 💔

[@pozzee2809]

😢

[@rainscratch]

Twins too to add to the tragedy. Going to pick up their sister and return the next day for the twins' graduation.

[@flyer617]

So sad. I joined ABS before I took delivery of my Bonanza, went through their courses and flew with a couple of their instructors who put me through my paces. I found it incredible valuable. I have also had many maintenance questions answered by experts in their forums. I have heard it is the best type-specific aircraft organization anywhere and believe that. It has made me safer and saved me many thousands of dollars.

[@2Phast4Rocket]

I got to watch some of their training videos and they are phenomenal

[@thesparkypilot]

They have super good classes! I’m just a Cessna driver and I benefit from what they put out quite a bit!

[@desertviews7503]

I'm a Comanche flier and can say that ICS (Comanche version of ABS) does a similarly great job for us; the role type clubs play is critical particularly for our older versions.

[@trendlinetracker3147]

The Bonanza design is weird.

[@dirtcurt1]

@@trendlinetracker3147 One of the best designs ever made. The wing is used on many other Beech aircraft including the King Air.

[@jimdavis1939]

I will never understand why relatively inexperienced pilots will file and fly single pilot into IMC weather conditions like the ones that existed that day. Especially in an airplane like a V35. The workload is high, they have to do everything by themselves, it is a recipe for disaster. That airplane is a handful, and if you get behind it in weather like that things will not end well. Flight school where I worked back in the 70's had one we used for complex airplane instruction and checkout for Commercial students. I told every student that I checked out in it: "fly this thing like it is a light twin and you will be just fine, if you don't, it will bite you." This was really a sad one and completely avoidable. RIP Thanks Juan, another great lesson for us all.

[@josephoberlander]

Having been in medium sized commuter aircraft/flights in similar weather, they get thrown around quite a lot. I can only imagine what it must be like in a light aircraft. Probably like being tossed around like a beach ball. My guess is that he was trying to avoid a storm cell and something came apart or failed due to the stress/winds - and he lost control.

[@dr_jaymz]

I think it's because people find themselves in situations they feel are well within their capabilities until suddenly, they aren't, and then they can't escape. Regardless of skill level, unexpected situations can arise that exceed one's abilities, even from seemingly benign circumstances, whether in simple or complex aircraft. Even aviation pioneers who defined best practices for things like mountain flying can still end up in trouble. After an accident, many comment on the inexperience or avoidability with an attitude that suggests their own intuition or experience makes them immune. However, sadly I know only too well from experience that even highly seasoned instructors with 20,000 hours, more experienced than a retired airline captain, can still end up in fatal situations if the conditions align just right. In this case I think you're right the workload got away from them and what can aggrivate the situation is that its probably very uneventful for a hour until all hell breaks loose and for some people they don't do well in those situations. I think that every year a proportion of fatalities are down to the unpredictable way people respond to a sudden stressful situation - Juan is commenting on the pilots communication but he could have been frozen at that point.

[@plektosgaming]

I would not be surprised, though, if one of the tail sections had a problem if he had indeed leveled off before the accident, as some people are suggesting. It could be almost anything on such an old aircraft. But the end result is probably the same, as you say. Something goes wrong, and the workload exceeds the pilot's capabilities.

[@NoelleTakestheSky]

I think the problem is that the minimums for a PPL don’t adequately prepare pilots for a lot of situations. They have no basis for comparison, so underestimate a situation until it’s too late. I racked up an extraordinary number of hours pre-PPL since I flew in all weather I could with an instructor, regardless of the fact that none of it checked off any boxes. It was experience in conditions beyond my own limits. If I know what X wind gusting Y is like, and my current limit is F gusting G, I can better gauge is I’m comfortable flying J gusting K next flight (I won’t change my limits before a flight, only after). If I have no basis for comparison, the difference might seem like less than it is. I was up in a 172 a couple weeks ago, 10G21 (it wasn’t that high when we took off to go work on some IR stuff, but IR was quickly abandoned to instead work on high-gust landings since we were up already and had to land anyway), which is outside my limits for a 172, but with a highly skilled instructor, and what I learned that flight can be applied to flights within my current limits, and I have a better gauge. I really think all the praise around as few flight hours as possible before various ratings is dangerous as it encourages people to skip flights that don’t check a box, but from which they could learn skills that could save lives. I know a lot of pilots who will only fly when the weather is idea, thinking that this is safest. But the reality is, IR flying itself isn’t ideal, yet we train to fly in it on purpose. So how is it safest to not seek out training in other adverse a conditions? Even if you’d never do a for-fun flight or other optional flight in certain conditions, it’s important to learn how to handle those conditions with someone else who knows better than to have your first experience be when you’re on your own. That 10G21 flight wasn’t predicted, and had that been my first time and I was by myself, I might have panicked a little (I’m human and believe it’s better to acknowledge what scares us so we can seek out training so we aren’t so worried anymore). But if it happens again and I’m alone, I’ve got some experience to fall back on, know the plane wouldn’t flip me over as long as I’m not stupid, and that means a better chance of a good landing. The emphasis on as few hours with an instructor as possible for max praise is deadly. It’s not always fun when other pilots look at you. like you suck when you say how many hours you had before checkride, but Jesus Christ, people, do you want approval or to stay alive?

[@orthopraxis235]

I will answer your question from the first sentence. 1. The world is extremely complex now and risks are not obvious, they are hidden in circumstances most people don't see. 2. People are not trained to understand reward/risk ratios of activities, so they take part in activities with catastrophic risk with the initially true understanding that the catastrophic scenario happens a small percentage of the time. What they don't understand is that by not following good procedure each and every time, holes build up in their safety net until the combination of those holes leads to a CERTAIN catastrophic scenario, where that catastrophic result is nearly assured to happen. It IS possible to nearly eliminate the catastrophic risk scenario from most activities. But that would take acknowledgement of the effect of that scenario, I mean a real feeling of how it would be if that happened, and then a commitment to systematically training out those errors ahead of time. I am guessing for a pilot of a Bonanza v tail these might include: more training, paid simulator training, commitment to memory of all the v speeds, hiring a seasoned pilot to accompany you for more training/safety, very comprehensive inspections of the critical structures like the v tail, things like this, and I am a non-pilot now so I am just guessing and doing my best to illustrate. I also guess that they typical doctor/bonanza combination scenario pairs a fast aircraft with the kind of personality that doesn't understand how close shortcuts put them to catastrophic risk in flying the v tail Bonanza. Maybe they take risks in their practice and things work out ok, or they don't work out ok and they don't suffer consequences immediately. At the same time, I have compassion for anyone that does this. If I had made a ton of money quickly/earlier in my career, I might just have been this guy, and could have easily been this guy.

[@moxievintage1390]

In 2013, Dr. Clifford Turen, a well-respected orthopedic surgeon, was killed while flying his PA-28, N4975S~ crash landing in trees 2 miles short of Dover AFB. He ran out of fuel, after several missed approaches at different airports, at night, with IFR. He had previously contacted DOV but failed to declare an emergency, and was denied permission to land as a non-military aircraft. By the time he once again contacted DOV, declaring a fuel emergency, it was far too late. He crashed while being vectored to DOV at that second contact. KEEP ATC IN THE LOOP when you are struggling.....🙏🏽

[@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co]

And don't be afraid to declare an emergency! The Emergency Police aren’t after you!

[@Connor_Herman]

There’s a great AOPA Air Safety Institute case study video on this accident.

[@GlamorganManor]

I just read about him, well-respected with many, many accolades. Head surgeon at U of Maryland Shock Trauma, one of the leading hospitals in trauma care and research in the world. In his spare time, the US Navy Reserves, serving as medical officer to Seal teams. So contradictory and sad, an adrenaline junkie while at the same time seeing so much trauma every day. It didn't seem to have caused him to reflect on how such things can happen to anyone whether due to their own errors, someone else's, or none at all and whether the safer way is better.

[@marctronixx]

@@Connor_Herman link?

[@tomcoryell]

I believe it was determined he could declare an emergency and land at the military base. He didn’t know this. Better to apologize though for landing at a military base than to die from following the rules. That was the saddest ATC audio I’ve ever heard.

[@davidhillerman3921]

Years ago when working as a mechanic, a local Bonanza landed after returning from a trip. He stated he felt a rumble or vibration. He immediately got the aircraft slowed down. When looking over his aircraft, half of one ruddervator was missing from just outboard of the middle hinge and the other was missing the counterweight. Most likely damage that resulted from flutter. The fuselage skin just ahead of the stabilizers had significant wrinkles on both sides. Apparently, he had pushed the nose down to descend and had hit or exceeded VNE. The pilot was very fortunate to not become a statistic that day. As you mentioned, the Beech is a slippery airplane and will build up airspeed fast. Get it into a turn with the nose dropping, and it can get ahead of you quickly.

[@Georgiagreen317]

I would add, flutter can occur at any speed. Not just excessive.

[@steveasher9239]

I owned a Bonanza 35 (no letter because it was the first year). I never had any trouble in it BUT I was a glider pilot and a tow pilot in taildraggers large and small. Those stick and rudder skills came in handy and I believe made me a better pilot than I would have been otherwise and a better pilot of the Bonanza. I treated the Bonanza with the respect it deserved, owing to its reputation and to having flown gliders and taildraggers..

[@jiyushugi1085]

Same here. Glider flying (with some acro) and tail draggers should be mandatory starting points for all aspiring pilots!

[@steveasher9239]

@@jiyushugi1085 it would definitely be an improvement in skill and safety. I took an aerobatics course SEL and did a little glider acro.

[@akrogirl32]

My husband and I were partners in a V35B for several years, and we both had some trail-dragger and aerobatic training (we competed for a few years). My husband was also IFR rated, and had taken high altitude training. He was a member of the American Bonanza Society, and took training from Hank Canterbury - an instructor in the Beech Bonanza/Baron proficiency program. Their manual goes into far more detail into how to fly the Bonanza safely.

[@steveasher9239]

@@akrogirl32 I had a very old Bonanza. Looked into the Bonanza Society training but couldn't afford the time or money then. (Of course the question really is can you afford NOT to do it). But I was quite current with a lot of TO's and Landings. I was training in the Bonanza for my commercial certificate. So a bunch of flying somewhat on the edge. Flying a lot of glider towing and flying gliders (I was a part owner of a glider operation in Taos NM). I also got to watch a LOT of other people screw up, in my job as the airport manager. Including 5 fatalities. Made me even more careful. And through a screw up or two of my own. Made me humble as to the realities at play. I just flew the Bonanza with an abundance of care and appropriate caution. It was a great plane. The guy that bought it from me landed it gear up in the desert. Adios Bonanza.

[@ocscmike]

Appreciate your thoughtful, respectful, and credible reporting Juan.

[@jentley]

Thanks Juan. I live and work about 15 miles from this crash. When I heard about it late in the day, I immediately wondered why it was flying anywhere near here. We had some considerable on again, off again spot storms. I want to say that the radar didn't do it justice for the weather we had that day...but that could just be my perception looking out the office window. All to say, personally, I think weather somehow was a factor.

[@GregoryWorth-m6l]

So tragic and heartbreaking and to know that two brilliant young adults never got a chance at living life and a well known and respected plastic surgeon was lost as well leaving one adult daughter. That is where they were flying too that day, to pick her up and fly back and both the children who perished in the crash were seniors at LSU and scheduled to walk the stage that Saturday at graduation. I cannot imagine the horror of being in a small plane breaking up and then free falling in the fuselage with both wings folded back knowing that certain death was minutes away. Heartfelt condolences to family.

[@rainscratch]

Absolute heart-breaking tragedy. The two on board were twins.

[@mowtivatedmechanic1172]

They only had seconds. Before that no one knew what was happening. Just “something bad” was happening.

[@yungrichnbroke5199]

@@mowtivatedmechanic1172falling from 9k feet will take a while to hit the ground. Consciousness would be possible with an over stressed aircraft that isn’t super fast or flying high enough to cause instant hypoxia.

[@astrt1]

​ @@yungrichnbroke5199

[@ShadesOClarity]

My paternal grandfather had a 1960 V-Tail Bonanza. He always flew VFR. He never flew in bad weather. The plane is still flying because I looked up the tail number N9922R. It's now owned by a guy in California and is flown frequently. My grandfather worked his way up from Cessna 152s - only when he was proficient did he upgrade to a higher-powered low-wing aircraft. *edit: This was really unfortunate. My grandfather did say the Bonanza was not easiest aircraft to fly. Condolences to the Doctor and his family.

[@vicoastdog]

I used to own a 1950 B35 and flew it IFR. A very slippery plane with not a lot of margin between normal cruising speed and VNE.

[@frisk151]

What an absolute nightmare ride to the ground, especially with the children being with him... Prayers are definitely with the wife, family and friends. Thank Juan, as always for keeping us up to date!

[@blue81blue81]

During my CFI days we had a V35B and F33 online. Got lots of time in both. Wondeful airplanes from nose to tail. Beech knew how to build em. The great control hamony, verneer power controls etc. The gear was all electric and moved fast. With an electrical failure you cranked it down mechanically. No hydraulics to deal with. Smooth running Continemtal 285. The V tail did have a sensative aft CG but very manageable with planning. It dutch rolled in turbulance but you could damp that out with rudder and slow to Va. Otherwise it was a speedster. Trued out at about 160 Kts. The V tail got a bad rap and I think we have to be careful to separate pilot error from any Bonanza issue. Sounds like this was the all too frequent classic scenario.....part time pilot with money in over his head in both the airplane and weather killing innocent pax in the process.

[@webcucciolo]

I have a lot of friends who rely too much on their electronic flybag, on autopilot, and so on. Those are great support to pilots who keep their proficiency at stick&rudder, analog instruments, safety maneuvers. I've got a commercial license and still worry about my personal minima and erred on the side of caution uncountable times. I make it a point of never "flying to a scheduled event" with not enough time to spare and to always carry enough so that I can take a night off somewhere if needed. I'm probably more prudent than necessary, but it's so painful to see so many pilots being so cavalier with the danger of GA

[@TheIndyspace]

There wouldn't be so much *danger* in general aviation if more license holders maintained a similar attitude, and if more 'instructors' were adept at fostering cautious and conservative practices...

[@Qrail]

I would fly with you Webb, sight unseen. Prudent is good. Thoughtful planning is taking an extra safety step.

[@overhead18]

How do your friends rely too much on their EFB (it is "flight bag" not "flybag" for future reference)? I use mine for flight planning, filing flight plans, weather and weather alerts, fuel calculations, W&B calculations, traffic, frequencies, IFR plates, terrain warnings, etc, etc etc. It has no impact on the ability to fly the plane, as a matter of fact I would argue it keeps my task load down and increases margins of safety. I mean I guess I could use the phone to file flight plans, do W&B by hand, call for weather, hope the weather is as predict while in route, just keep my eyes open for traffic, print out all the IFR plates and airport maps, etc,. I am not the smartest dude, but it seems to me that is much more likely to distract me from my primary task, flying the plane, then just looking at a simple IPAD...it is not like it can fly the plane.

[@carlmontney7916]

Regardless of whether this was an in-flight breakup caused by a mechanical problem with the plane or pilot error this is still a very sad accident. RIP to the pilot and his children and condolences to any surviving family members.

[@rainscratch]

This is from a 1979 Aviation Consumer article on the Beechcraft 35. The accident aircraft N47WT was a V35 model built in 1966. Irv Culver has had a lifetime of aeronautical activity. Culver is now semi-retired and consults on aircraft design. He invented the Attitude Orienter (an artificial horizon in which the airplane moves and the horizon stays stationary) and participated in several designs while at Lockheed-California. Aviation Consumer: We have a copy of the letter you sent to the FAA about the strength of the Bonanza tail ... Irv Culver: Well, I think they fixed that problem - at least on the later models. They beefed up the root rib and the front spar of the stabilizer. I think they fixed it structurally. [Note: the H Model and later models appear to have the change Culver speaks of here.] AC: The structural failures have continued over the years, even the later models. Culver: Yes, well, the Bonanza has some other problems. It’s di- rectionally poor in rough air. It has very bad Dutch roll charac- teristics. It’s not really a good airplane at all, but that’s only my opinion. Everybody else thinks it is great. AC: How does that relate to the structural failures? Culver: In my opinion, the Dutch roll characteristics are so bad that in rough air it yaws to very high angles and just blows the tail off. Beech certainly has beefed up the later models. But I don’t care how much you beef it up, if you lose it in rough air and it starts Dutch rolling, it can go to very high yaw angles, way beyond the design strength of the tail. AC: Is that below red-line speed? Culver: Oh yes. I think this occurs just above cruise speed. You know the public is misinformed about rough air, they just go booming on through. They pull their hats down over their heads and go. Years ago I was flying a Bonanza over the desert in rough air and it was something else. But it wasn’t blind (i.e., not instru- ment conditions). I’d say blind you wouldn’t have a chance in really rough air at high speed. AC: Most of the Bonanza in-flight failures are associated with bad weather. Culver: Yeah, blind. I think most pilots could hack it in IFR con- ditions if they would just slow down. AC: Back to the letter you sent the FAA. What did Beech do about that? Culver: That was a very unpopular thing with Beech, you know. As I say, I think they have fixed the tail weakness, but they waited a while. Beech is very sensitive about such things. It is a legal thing as far as they are concerned. It has nothing to do with safety; it has to do with a legal position. And so they never react to anything until sometim e later, you know, when it is all died down. AC: We plan to quote you on this. Culver: Beech would probably like to have me shot. Yeah, sure, quote me"

[@drunvert]

Illuminating

[@cassandratq9301]

What an interview! Another Dutch Roll!??

[@cassandratq9301]

It couldn't hurt for the NTSB to read this interview. What a wealth of knowledge about the flying characteristics + structure of this older plane type and frame.

[@rainscratch]

@@cassandratq9301 It is an incredibly detailed and revealing study published in that aviation magazine. Much more information than the short interview I posted. Yes it can benefit to get this more widely known in circles of influence.

[@larryweitzman5163]

Juan, I was hoping you were going to cover this incident. Good analysis. As you know I fly a V35B and I wrote this comment on Flight Solutions comments the day they posted. Look at the pilot's background that's available. First he got his PPL in 2016, second he graduated med school in 1987, that makes him about 60-62 years old. We don't know his total hours but I would say less than a 1,000. He was flying at IFR altitudes so I would assume he had an inst. rating. (now confirmed) third, He owned the subject airplane for perhaps six months or less. It appeared to have radar (pod on wing). It had a Garmin 750 and an Aspen. I looked at for sale photos from 2023. Fourth, It also appears he used his auto pilot all the time even on short flights, i.e., less time hand flying. (similar to the C340 crash of N7022G). Fifth, old Photos also showed an IAS at 5,000' of 144 kts at about 23-24" and 2,300 rpm. And when fighting headwinds, you normally fly as fast as you can to limit the time in the headwind as he was fighting headwinds of at least 20-30 knots the whole trip. Sixth, His ground speed was about 125-130 kts for almost the whole cruise part of flight. Seventh, No probable fuel issues as his capacity was 120 gal. Eighth, And one report had convective activity in the area. Ninth, This 1966 V35TC Va is 134kts at gross weight (3,400# without the Osbornes). So he was in probably turb at an IAS 20 kts or more over Va and it's a 56 year old airplane with about 6,000 hrs. Most io-520 V-tails can indicate about 150 kts at his altitude at 65-75% (my V-tail indicates 148 kts at 11,500' at 59%). Was his radar inop? Did he get a good wx brief? gottgetthereitis? Did he not know his V speeds? SD? What a shame!!! V-tails don't kill Docs, Docs kill themselves. Bad training and not enough info and study about how an airplane flys. Required reading should include the book, Stick and Rudder. By the way I joined ABS before I bought my first V-tail 35 years ago and have and read John Eckalber's book and all four of Larry Ball's books. There are two books on the Bonanza, one covers 1947-1971 (Those Incomparable Bonanzas, you mentioned) and "They call me Mr. Bonanza" (1972 trough the date of publication). By the way, Larry Ball eventually flew twin Cessnas (320) and became president of the twin Cessna Flyers maybe 30 years ago. Reminds of the story of the lawyer standing in the chow line in heaven when he sees a Dr. dressed in schrubs cut the line and he asks an old timer in the heaven chow line, "Hey, I'm new here, but I thought there were no cuts in the chow line and that Dr. just cut the line?" The old timers says, "that's not a Dr., it's God, but God thinks he is a doctor."

[@bobcrone6151]

1900 hrs in an N35. Great comment/points. Glad to come acoss this after reading a preponderance of absolute dipshit remarks here. Thanks.

[@JerryMorgan-ul8gv]

Ok

[@rainscratch]

Great comment.

[@larryweitzman5163]

@@bobcrone6151 A good friend of mine owns and flies an N35 which I consulted on during his purchase. Great bird, with tip tanks a good panel and most important, an io-550 done by LyCon. lots of hp and it goes like a rocket!!! Next to flying and handling of a P-51 or a T-28, next best is a V-tail.

[@EIGYRO]

How did a lawyer get into heaven? Just asking for a friend.

[@cjbotkin1]

Your (recent) use of weather and Wx radar is a solid move. Really good SitRep or awareness.

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

5/15/2024, 1700Z (12pm CDT), 35.8463°N, 87.1057°W (SW of Franklin, TN): Clouds: Broken (024, top 090), also Broken towards NE (tops ranging from 060 to 100), Scattered towards SW Thunderstorms: SCT in vicinity, ISOL towards SW Turbulence at 090: Light Icing at 090: None Icing at 012: None, Trace and Light towards ESE VV: -446 ft/min GS: 57°@183 knots Winds Aloft at 090: 316°@17kts (i.e. left crosswind) TAS: 47.7°@181.7 knots Altitude: 9100 ft Altimeter Setting: 1008 mb (29.77"Hg) Pressure at 090: 21.47" Hg Temperature at 090: 0 to 5°C (2.5°C assumed) CAS: 158 knots (before rapid descent) VV: -4000 ft/min GS: 154°@216 knots Winds Aloft at 090: 316°@17kts (i.e. tailwind) TAS: 155.5°@199.9 knots Altitude: 7800 ft Altimeter Setting: 1008 mb (29.77"Hg) Pressure at 078: 22.40" Hg Temperature at 078: 5°C assumed CAS: 176 knots (maximum recorded) VA: 132 KCAS VNO: 165 KCAS VNE: 195 KCAS It appears that VNO and VNE were not exceeded before the rapid descent, ruling out catastrophic flutter as the initial cause of descent. Over-g is still a possibility. Based on the cloud bases, it's likely that the plane was already at low altitude when the witness saw wing failure. However, the clouds were broken, so it's also possible that a witness saw the plane at high altitude. The witness said the plane was in a level attitude, so it would be helpful to know if it the plane had pulled from a dive before achieving that attitude. It's difficult to say how much of the pre-descent maneuvering was deliberate weather avoidance, or if it was due to disorientation or structural failure.

[@merlerust1703]

Someone asked a doctor to chime in(actually a neurosurgeon)....Twin instrument rated, private pilot whose first airplane was a Cessna 421C and second, a Piper Cheyenne 1 turboprop...Flight Safety trained(initial and recurrency-full motion sim in both while actively flying).....It continues to amaze me to hear over and over again these damn stories about "pilots" of whatever profession trying to fly from point a to point b in complex machines over long distances in IMC...As for myself, I tried to never push it(i.e. repeated hard IFR especially at night) even though the plane probably could do it.....just never pushed it. This poor fella with his kids on board seemingly did and lost. My message is....use common sense and judgement! If the mission looks like it could be a hand full for whatever reason(low time, inexperience, weather) with you as sole operator on board, just don't go or fly the airlines! Now my hope is that some pilot reads this and say to themselves, this guy(me) had some good training and good equipment, but just WOULD NOT FLY AT CERTAIN TIMES. They might conclude "I should heed the danger and stay on the ground"....And as a consequence of this post I have been wanting to make for a while...well, just maybe, I will save a life and, just maybe, a family. As always Juan, good reporting.

[@carolinelvsewe]

So incredibly sad. Thanks for this review. Condolences to the family.

[@johnmulvey6304]

Juan, I can’t agree more about working with ATC in weather. I have picked my way through weather with certain iron clad rules. Daytime only, above the undercast so I can see the buildups reflecting what my ADS-B radar returns shows, having iron clad bail out airports identified if I can’t find a path through the weather, and being very ready to tell ATC I need to deviate for weather. I won’t be the only one asking, I’m sure.

[@actuallynick1]

It looks like this Bonanza has the same autopilot that TNFLY Girl had. Maybe the AP kicked off way out of trim and cause the sudden climb.

[@N9041V]

Same manufacture different model, she had a century 2000, this is a century 3

[@dynmicpara]

Devils in the machine.

[@tywheeler7131]

That looks like the classic Graveyard spiral. All but ONE of my students do it when I put them under the hood and give them distractions. On your next BFR have your instructor put you under the hood and read an entire approach plate without looking up. Then, have them MAKE YOU RECOVER. The second method is do steep turns with their eyes closed. That one's more fun, but the distraction exercise usually shows the tendencies for folks to put themselves into an unusual attitude.

[@steve-o5600]

The daughter had just finished her DVM at LSU Vet School and the son his BS from LSU in Chemical Engineering.

[@lawman5511]

Jesus!

[@shauny2285]

Always tragic when young people are taken before their time. 😢

[@pamshewan9181]

😢

[@mcraft2240]

Yes.. it’s awful. It really doesn’t matter what their education was. It’s just tragic no matter what.

[@rainscratch]

Twins about to graduate the next day.

[@tammaramma]

I've owned my V35B for over 20 years. It's a fantastic airplane. I cruise at 174 knots lean of peak (IO-550) burning about 13.5-14.0 gph. It's probably the nicest flying airplane I've ever flown, and I've flown alot of different aircraft. My airplane has the cuff on the leading edges of the tail as Juan describes. I've also instructed quite a few new Bonanza pilots. One of the points I make is that the maneuvering speed is as you describe 134 knots, and that's at max gross. If you're not at max gross Va goes down of course. Too many pilots have little respect for Va and in a Bonanza it requires some planning to stay at or below Va. Luckily the V35B has a high gear speed (154 knots) that can be used as a speed brake if necessary. Such a sad story.

[@samueloren9388]

Absolutely correct, I flew ours in Florida and when it turned dark grey out there I slowed to 130kts or less

[@alexc5449]

My biggest worry with this aircraft is the combination of rudder and elevator and what Beechcraft determined the g tolerance are for that tail combo. I can’t really find any information on that but I’m reminded of American 587 when the pilot torn the fin off with the full deflection of the rudder back and forth and the airplane was well below the maneuvering speed. My understanding is that the vertical stabilizer has a totally weaker tolerance for g forces applied to it as opposed to the elevator. Beechcraft I think needs to make this information available if those sorts of tests were performed. Just my feeling.

[@gregknipe8772]

sad that you are so good at reporting these mishaps / mini aviation investigations. I dont fly but I am curious and like to learn. and I learn lot here. thank you Juan, aviators seem to outnumber landlubbers in your viewing numbers, this means far more to them. you do good work.

[@firepilot6464]

I was in Nashville airspace and was talking to approach when this happened. I was very shocked to find out what happened the next day. I remember there were some cumulus buildups between Huntsville and Nashville that I had to deviate around but north of Nashville the weather became less convective with a relatively smooth ride in the clouds, but the bases were low that day with my destination airport being at minimums. I was also cruising at 9,000ft when crossing through Nashville and was in vmc conditions when transiting their airspace. Very sad situation and it will be interesting to see what will come of the investigation.

[@casssmith2610]

Glad you’re safe. Stay safe, don’t need more casualties.

[@alexc5449]

Do you remember what the weather conditions were around the area this happened? Was it convective?

[@doctordave4247]

I owned a V-tail Bonanza for 34 years. The most useful book I found as an owner was Colvin's Clinic by J. Norman Colvin, the father of the Bonanza. RIP to the three lost souls on board the accident aircraft: Heart breaking story.

[@davidfalconer4260]

But youre still alive, so you cant be that scared of it.

[@6milesup]

I lost a friend in a V-35 after the tail separated from the aircraft. This aircraft did have the leading edge cuff AD complied with. I never flew in a V-tail bonanza again.

[@petepeterson5337]

@@davidfalconer4260 I have one, and have great respect for it. With proper training, currency and capability-appropriate missions, I have found it to be absolutely an easy flyer that will always make the pilot look a little better than he/she is. The V-Tail is of course famous for being a tiger with claws if flown outside the capability of the plane or the pilot. This is a good airplane for reasonable IMC, but there is plenty of weather that it (and many other planes) can NOT handle. I plan to keep my V-Tail for the rest of my flying years, and as in the past, will have no troubles being stuck somewhere due to weather or ????; I do fun easy flying, not heroic flying.

[@UnintendedConsequences]

My father had both the wing-tip tank and sans on V-Tail Bonanzas - and the book. He sold the second one after having loaned the other to a close family friend, who had only a very new solo license - took his fiance, his daughter and her two children on a flight on Thanksgiving - and ended up in a flat spin, and we lost them all that awful day. He was hoping to sell both and move up to a King-Aire - and then Beech introduced the Starship - and although waiting for more than thirty years, the only other aircraft he owned were giant scale RC models, including the Starship, a QueenAire, and more than one of his own design. I have many fond memories of our family vacations taken in that bird, and nearly every Sunday I would accompany him on his weekly flights to get his hours for his commercial endorsement. He still flies the RC models at a spry 93 years young. RIP to the family of this tragedy.

[@KevinDC5]

Im curious as to why the book was important to you and what information you garnered from it that has kept you you alive as a Bonanza pilot?

[@wdhewson]

There was a parked Bonanza at our airport, and I thought it would be a great project. I priced the prop overhaul and ran away with my tail between my legs !!

[@2Phast4Rocket]

If you don’t have a doctor salary, it’s not for you

[@blue81blue81]

Has nothing to due withit being a Bonanza. Airplanes are not cheap to own or maintain. It's not for everyone.

[@jimamizzi1]

Probably the reason why some owners don’t keep up with the maintenance. I’m not a pilot, should maintenance be that expensive or are the engineers charging what they like? I’m a curious kind kind of guy hence the questions

[@blue81blue81]

@@jimamizzi1 First not just anyone can work on an airplane. You must have an A + P......airplane and power plant license.....to work on or supervise work on aircraft. Secondly aircraft parts are expensive because they have to be approved or certified for aircraft. Also unlike your car aircraft are REQUIRED to have maint performed at certain flight hour intervals which if not accomplished can legally ground the airplane. Airplanes and boats are the same....big holes to throw money into. If you are wealthy you don't care.

[@meowmeow2759]

​@@blue81blue81I'm an a&p and worked in production and repair of aircraft parts and I can tell you that it's the corporations price gouging thesr parts driving prices up. You know how your 401k grows right? Because of these companies gouging customers and creating "growth"

[@SteamCrane]

Juan lays out the known facts and doesn't speculate. Exactly what is needed. Far better than some other youtubers.

[@onethousandtwonortheast8848]

I’m so tired of the KZbin wars. Like what you like.

[@casssmith2610]

Follow Pilot Debrief as well. A lot like Juan. Military and commercial background and like Juan, tells it like it is.

[@samphillips8322]

Thank you once again for the briefing on this tragic accident. Having been a Bonanza owner for several years and flying several examples of this type both as PIC and CFI, I find it extremely sad that accidents similar to this continue to happen in these fine aircraft. This one was 40+ years old. I thought mine was getting old when I sold it (21 years old). Even with the best of maintenance, what surprises lurk in a 40 year old airframe? Although the early Bonanzas were dive tested by Beech at speeds around 250 kt, not every private pilot has the training and skill to handle a low drag airplane when it gets up around VNE or beyond, when an incorrect recovery procedure or abrupt pull on the controls can result in structural overload. I have flown Bonanzas in turbulence under IFR conditions, with the stall horn beeping intermittently at an IAS of 130 mph, have had brief encounters in light icing, and made all kinds of approaches in near minimums. Part of the game is understanding weather dynamics. There is no shame in requesting a deviation to another airport when the weather starts looking questionable. Thanks also for mentioning ABS and those publications. Any potential Bonanza owner needs to spend time in that material and find an instructor who can teach the skills needed to safely operate a low drag high performance aircraft. There is a reason why the Air Force and Navy used the T-34 (offspring of the Bonanza) as a primary trainer before going all jet. Not everyone has the aptitude or concentration demanded at this level of aviation. Best to put the brakes on their ambitions before it is too late.

[@casssmith2610]

I’m totally in awe of all pilots, PPL and commercial, military. I’m a multi million mile business flier as well as hours in my uncles plane as a kid. Flying is a joy as a passenger but I’ve never lost my awe for pilots and your knowledge and abilities. Accidents can happen to anyone. And that breaks my heart. Stay safe.

[@desertr4062]

I've said this before, these high achievers, Dr's, lawyers etc, seem to think they will be good at everything they do. They aren't. Go buy an airline ticket and let the professionals take you there. What a sad loss of 3 seemingly bright people.

[@LarsLarsen77]

The professionals are worse than us now, thanks to DEI.

[@brookswoolson909]

@@LarsLarsen77Say what you really want to say.

[@Cleon851]

@@LarsLarsen77sure buddy, everyone has to pass their writtens and checkrides the same as everyone else.

[@Capt_Tarmac]

@@Cleon851pass all the written exams..orals..practical tests you want..what they lack is judgement. You can’t buy that. 😢

[@PavTheSlav1]

I know an immunologist that crashed the economy.

[@djbred18]

My first cfi told me “Never fly with a doctor, you can’t teach someone who thinks they already know everything”

[@tombrown108]

BINGO

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

It’d be interesting to compare the stats of doctor, lawyer, engineer, banker, entrepreneur, pro pilot; to see which profession averages the fewest GA hours before crashing.

[@nfcboys1984]

@@AwestrikeFearofGodsI’m an entrepreneur, and would never fly my own aircraft. Smart business people put experts in the right place and let them do their respective jobs….

[@tomfilipiak3511]

Kennedy,put himself and his passengers in jeopardy,way in over his head!

[@courtneysmith6082]

Or (some) lawyers

[@thekill2509]

It would be typical to focus on the tail as a structural issue, however, it is interesting that the NTSB rep stated that they had a credible eyewitness who saw the airplane in a "level attitude with the wings folded back". There is an AD on the main wing spar as well.

[@dirtcurt1]

My maneuvering speed on my D-35 is 140 mph. So, no rough air speeds over 140. To get to 140mph I practically have to go to idle and raise the nose. I pull the power to 15 inches to land with the gear down. I think 17-18 I could maintain maneuvering speed gear up. Point is he was at 218 knots ground speed from what I read. That's fast in clear air and he was possibly in a dive as well which will show a slower ground speed (straight down or up will show zero GS). The only thing left for him was to pull power and drop the gear if he actually knew what was happening. I personally don't fly in bad weather or nighttime. One other thing, as you descend into thicker air the indicated airspeed goes up very quickly. I have been surprised a few times with the indicated catching up to the ground speed and then start getting some bumpy air. It's something you really have to watch in the Bonanza in my case a 71-year-old plane. The spar inspection is on the early 35s and maybe the A and B model. I don't think there is spar AD on the accident aircraft. If you blow the tail off of one of these, the wings are going next.

[@user-eg5rn6nd7e]

Good information ^

[@thekill2509]

@@dirtcurt1 My Comanche is similar, Va is 139mph, but with the gear up, in a 500fpm descent my IAS winds up around 170mph. And sure as hell, as soon as I get down to 3000ft in the summer, WAM, rough air from thermals. Without speedbrakes I wind up having to do step downs the last couple thousand feet while flying local VFR stuff just to honor Va.

[@kirknewton100]

Oh! 😔 Another sad tale... and his children too😢. My prayers to his family and friends.

[@motopilot9009]

I don’t think this industry stresses enough the importance of hiring a competent safety pilot. Not only is it much safer, it is a learning opportunity for the less experienced pilots/airplane owners. Maybe one of these days someone will set up something like an Uber app but for safety pilots.

[@austinformedude]

100% recommend joining both ABS and also Beechclub if you own a Beech. Not only for tips and training, but also for maintenance help. While there is no type rating needed, advance and specific training to proficiently operate one of these high performance airplanes is strongly recommended.

[@austinformedude]

@RetreadPhoto While certainly old, I wouldn't call it "derelict." It would still be capable of coupled approaches, and following NAV guidance from the modern GPS installed. Obviously, knowing exactly how the autopilot responds in different modes is very important. It was certainly working just fine here based on the flight data. This would not be the first time in recent history where a pilot is overly dependent upon the AP and is not proficient in Hand Flying (See TNFlyGirl). Whatever happened on this accident flight, I don't think the AP is to blame.

[@gilianrampart8514]

Stay away from this death trap!

[@chrisorth]

I was a mechanic, avionics installer and repair tech. Most all of my Doctor customers were always doing stupid flying stuff. My theory was that they were cheating fate when they saved their patients from death, so they thought they could do the same thing when flying.

[@danielgregory3295]

I was told that it was a typical doctor thing to be overly confident in their abilities..😢

[@gsdalpha1358]

My ex-FIL (RIP Leon) was a skilled GA pilot with 50+ years of experience. There was a split tail hangered at his uncontrolled airport, owner-pilot was a doctor (shock shock). Doc evidently thought he was exempt from giving position updates/intentions, nor did he see any reason for base legs. Doc was such a danger to everyone, pilots would broadcast when he was flying.

[@antontsau]

Doctors are the worst technical (computers, electronics etc) users, comparable only to accountants. Absolut absense of loopback, machine tries to report something (we have a problem, it is not working, missed link and so on) - zero reaction. At all. Even if it is written on the red screen with huge letters. Why? Do not know, but suspect the reason is in medical education, with learning heaps of books and careful eradication of any doubts, do this way and do not ask. All possible channels for information input blocked after many years of this approach.

[@mediocreman2]

​@@antontsauThey are rarely told they're wrong, and you can get in a lot of trouble even confronting them if you work for the same company. I think they just start to think that they know everything. Surgeons are the worst because they have a major personality disorder usually. They have to be slightly narcissistic to even want to be a surgeon because it takes the mentality that you can't fail. Kind of like race car drivers have that mentality that nothing bad will happen. Unfortunately they apply it to other things in their lives that they don't have experience or knowledge on. And instead of being humble and curious, they feel they are expected to be strong, confident, knowledgeable, etc. Some of the dumbest people I know are doctors. They think education and status will compensate for their lack of intelligence. If you have the ability to retain information long enough to take a test, you can become a doctor. They are just force fed information and they become experts at regurgitating that info. But they are not taught pattern recognition, trend analysis, and any critical thinking. Those are traits that you can't really learn I guess.

[@simonflower6356]

As a young man, a good friend of mine (now a retired airline captain) worked as a flight instructor to build up his hours - like so many who hope one day to fly commercially. I’ll never forget his telling me that doctors were invariably his worst students or, as he put it, “always looking to dig a hole in the ground…and sometimes succeeding”.

[@JimWalkerMusic]

The "Doctor Killer" strikes again. I love the V tail design but so many of them have met the same fate... I wanted one for years, not anymore.

[@gregorym7588]

Came here to say this

[@T3glider]

Fork-tailed doctor killer!

[@japayne21]

Doctors are bonanza killers, not the other way round!

[@AlanCamp-q1s]

I lost my best friend in the 90s to a Dr. killer and he told me the plane was a Dr. killer even though he was not a doctor it still killed him the Lycoming motor failed on takeoff the plane went in blunt force trauma killed all three people the pilot my friend student and another employee of the company who my friend shamed into taking that flight. they were practicing touching goes

[@juliocosta5818]

What amazes me is how these planes recognize doctors

[@stevenhuckaby2902]

Not for beginners, I logged a little B36 time in the late 70's and it is quite a step up from a 172 lots of competent instruction is life saving

[@vanstry]

I honestly think that people who rarely fly in IMC conditions, should take refresher courses before embarking on any kind of IMC trip. I don't understand why people stop believing their instruments.

[@philliplopez8745]

With the reputation that it has , I wonder what the actual numbers are . Some call them " the surgeon killer " I wonder what the fatality to hours numbers look like or production vs. survival numbers .

[@aspenandvail]

Juan. I love your channel. I live just a few miles from the crash site. In my opinion I do not believe the weather was a factor at the time of the accident. As you saw in the video clouds were broken with lots of blue sky. Keep up the good work.

[@baasbowing]

Even scattered or broken clouds could be a factor. If his attention was fully focused on a failing autopilot, absorbing all his bits and bites and then all of sudden having to handfly an aircraft that is perhaps already in an unusual attitude or outside the normal flight envelope and going in and out of clouds…it could mess up your day. And it did. I’m just making this scenario up, but it’s very well possible something similar happened.

[@williamk5998]

Loss of orientation and increasing airspeed in the soup with a Bonanza? Drop the gear, power to idle, and fly the instruments and think. You'll tear the gear doors but you and the passengers and the Bonanza will live.

[@TyphoonVstrom]

Yes. I always thought the Beech designers knew what they were doing with the relatively high extension speed. The gear is way overbuilt.

[@Adventdraconis]

@@TyphoonVstrom I fly a C24R Beech Sierra. Gear extension speed is 135kt, higher than max-power cruise speeds. Best speedbrake out there.

[@somealias-zs1bw]

Why would you need the gear down if you cut the power to idle and make sure you're not pitching down?

[@williamk5998]

@@somealias-zs1bw slows the plane down dramatically and increases stability. I should also mention prop forward.

[@glenntaylor1506]

@@somealias-zs1bw Airplane is way more stable and less likely to enter highspeed death spiral with gear down. More or less turns it into a 172. 3 time Bonanza owner. This is great advice.

[@lawman5511]

I had a 182 with an autopilot. Flew it all over the SW VFR. Thermals get so bumpy over the desert that I was a lot smoother on the plane than the autopilot.

[@whiffy506]

This is true and very important. Maintaining level wings by hand is easier on the structure than letting the autopilot yank all surfaces.

[@tomdchi12]

Scott Perdue just posted a video with a student of his doing UPRT training in his F33C Bonanza. Really interesting comments from that student about how without that sort of direct experience he'd likely not execute a recovery properly. Scott explains some of the characteristics of the Bonanza in flight and that propensity to spiral and overspeed. Fascinating video in light of accidents like this.

[@Catch_The_Irishman]

Odd, considering that aircraft is not certified for aerobatics which is essential for proper UPRT.

[@JohnDalton-n6l]

@@Catch_The_Irishman The F33C is approved for aerobatics. It was developed for just that use.

[@tomdchi12]

@@Catch_The_Irishman Pretty sure you are wrong. What do you think the aerobatic certified Bonanza model designation is?

[@Catch_The_Irishman]

@@JohnDalton-n6l That must explain why these V-Tail Bonanzas have been shedding parts for years. If it is certified, and I believe you, it seems a little sketchy that for 50 years it has a reputation as a Doctor killer. Thanks for the correction.

[@Catch_The_Irishman]

@@tomdchi12 That must explain why these V-Tail Bonanzas have been shedding parts for years. If it is certified, and I believe you, it seems a little sketchy that for 50 years it has a reputation as a Doctor killer. Thanks for the correction.

[@MalcolmRuthven]

Not really related to this accident, but many years ago I got my BFR with John Eckalbar and learned so much about flying the group-owned Bonanza (36) I then flew.

[@MikeHursh]

As always a super informative video. As a side note. My father was an aviation insurance savant. He always complained about this particular airframe, difficult to insure. Thoughts and prayers to the family. Such a tragic loss. Keep up the good work Blancolirio

[@MikeHursh]

@OfficialBlancolirioui I don’t understand?

[@alanholck7995]

Had a pilot friend who called this aircraft the V-Tailed Doctor Killer

[@JSFGuy]

That term has been around for decades beyond.

[@markiangooley]

That is a time-honored description. I think I first read it in the 1970s as a boy who wanted to be a private pilot but knew that insulin-dependent diabetes would rule that out.

[@Mike.The.Jeweler]

​@markiangooley doesn't rule it out at all, you can fly GA with a waiver that says you've got your condition well managed, just can't fly commercial. Has been that way since 96

[@roscozone8092]

Living(!) up to its reputation, sadly

[@Lugnut64052]

It's a well-known nickname and sadly, it got another one.

[@artrogers3985]

Horrible story whenever a family is lost. Noticed you have “The Beatles incredible work ethic” in your KZbin queue. I watched it a couple of days ago. Very good watch 🎸

[@3865ron]

I used to rent a Bonanza....before it was seen coming out of a cloud deck minus the tail.

[@gilianrampart8514]

Death trap!

[@carlospar3727]

Flew in weather when the prize made it worthwhile (green suit). Having retired from that, I fly for comfort and convenience now, nobody's getting engaged outside the wire. NOTHING I fly for now justifies it. I practice instrument flying to stay proficient just in case unforecasted weather sneaks up on me, but that's just to get me out of the weather/sky safely on the ground. Its a V35A single engine adventure, so we'll spend a night at a little motel waiting for weather to clear. Plan the flight, (including contingencies), fly the plan, without having to resort to "superb skills" to keep me alive. Stay safe and remember, is the juice worth the squeeze? Will you be well and favorably presented in the accident report two years later?

[@LimaFoxtrot]

In the BE35 POH, that maneuvering speed is based on max gross weight. If you're lighter than that, then the speed is even lower.

[@AvStevieStevenJamesDrums]

Jaun, I truly appreciate that you cover these most unfortunate tragic moments. It is crappy situations that you report on. Let peace, be still for the unfortunate loss of loved ones.

[@samueloren9388]

My first flying job was in the fork tailed docter killer…It always comes down to understanding your limitations…

[@1964Mooney]

I lost a very good friend in an almost identical scenario in a V tail Bonanza many decades ago.

[@Georgiagreen317]

I'll wait for the NTSB on this one. But my comment would be a very inexperienced pilot placed in an aircraft that may very well not had the best of maintenance. Any number of issues could have put this guy in harm's way. But seeing the rear tail bulkhead completely missing would tell me to start looking there especially if the ruddervators were recovered some distance away. That's just a guess on my part but if tail flutter did occur the pilot would have no chance. The AD for installing the mentioned forward cuff provides no additional strength to the bulkhead structures. It's been over fifteen years since I last worked on Bonanza's but even back then I had decided to stay away from anything older than the V35Bs and the A36s. There comes a time when aircraft should be put to sleep as they are simply too old to maintain properly. Maybe 50 years old is enough. I am quite surprised to see owners invest that kind of avionics money in these old aircraft. But before judging the doctor I would hold off until we see the final outcome.

[@lisasteimer5860]

I am by no means a pilot, but I love aviation. As always, thank you for your analysis of the accident.

[@daveboatman4024]

He Juan, were you going to do a video on the Rockwell Command crash in Fluvanna County, Virginia on Sunday May 5, 8:55am? I live near the crash site and we’ve heard nothing. The plane was headed from Manassas VA airport to South Carolina, 2 souls on board. Last thing we heard was TSA was still looking for the right wing and engine.

[@billbeyatte]

Excellent description of aircraft structures

[@Kickinpony66]

As you pointed out he didn't have very much flight time in that Bonanza; only 6.36 total hours, before he departed on the flight. I'm curious of how much time he had in a model like this, before he purchased this aircraft?

[@lonzo61]

These stories of air crashes that involve children are difficult to even consider. I watch these and other air crash reviews, as painful as some of them are, to learn rather than pretend it can't happen to me. What is so disheartening is to see these same mistakes seemingly made over and over, generation after generation. I recall hearing the phrase "doctor killer" applied to the Bonanza for the first time some thirty years ago. My bro had a K-35, and he sometimes used that term himself, but his respect for the type and his training allowed him to fly without putting himself and his passengers in a compromising situation. On the other hand, it's easy to play armchair pilot and aviation expert, so I have to remain humble when I watch these valuable vids. Thanks, blancolirio for your work.

[@valerierodger]

This didn’t involve children per se. They were his children, but they were also adults.

[@lonzo61]

@@valerierodger Ah, thanks for the correction. My bad. That does take the sting out of this tragedy a bit. I don't know how I missed that detail.

[@chrisanderson4799]

Juan Brown, if you look at the pics the ground and roadways show it had rained just previously.

[@richardsteckel2814]

Most IFBs with Bonanzas have the V tail attach points failing first and the wings failing down.

[@judd_s5643]

Curious aspect of the V-tail Bonanza. Intuitively you would think the v-tail is symmetrical but it is not. The left and right horizontal stabilizer have different angles of incident. It’s really oblivious when viewed from directly behind the aircraft.

[@soaringvulture]

Must be because the propeller turns.

[@jedisdad2265]

The older V-tail Bonanzas had issue with the V stabilator “peeling” off. There was an STC for a mod by a company in Johnson Kansas. I believe the owner of the mod was a guy named Smith who operated an agriculture spraying operation with Ag-Cats.

[@t.j.mcnelis3999]

Juan, dumb question. But when you pull up flight aware is there a setting that pulls up the radar at the time of the flight? I haven't been able to grab what the radar was showing when going back and reviewing the logs. Whenever I review logs it show CURRENT wx radar information, not past. Thanks!

[@westhavenor9513]

Bonanza living up to its nickname

[@johnrltr]

No disrespect intended, but maybe the Bonanza was killed by the doctor.

[@austinformedude]

@@johnrltr Agree.

[@blue81blue81]

It ain't the airplane westhaven. That doc would have killed himself in ANY airplane that day.

[@theburtseoni]

My father in law used to own a nice, updated G35 V-tail and among the various things that had been updated, he had the tail strake installed on the bottom of the tail to stop the infamous 'tail flutter' that could cause separation of the tail at high speed. I wonder if this plane needed the tail strake added, or if so, had it been done? He finally sold it when it became cost prohibitive to have the electric adjustable prop updated every 100 hours as he told it. They didn't call the V-tail Bonanza the 'flying Dr's coffin' for nothing years ago. Several years ago I lost a dentist I had when he bought a nice used V-tail and promptly got into trouble with it in bad weather and bought the farm. It was way more plane then he needed or could handle at the time!

[@skyboy1956]

the fix to structurally beef up the ruddervators was a cuff around the leading edge. The various aftermarket ventral fins were to reduce fishtailing in turbulence.

[@bleiben1]

My grandfather had a V35 in the 70s - registration N39W. A later owner had an incident where the prop separated in flight - pilot and passengers walked away but the airframe was a loss…. I remember my grandfather taking about how twitchy it would fly. He was a doctor to!

[@smark1180]

"had the tail strake installed on the bottom of the tail to stop the infamous 'tail flutter' that could cause separation of the tail at high speed." No, it didn't. That's nonsense. You're referring to the "air skeg,” supposedly to damper the Dutch-roll. It wasn't about preventing "tail flutter."

[@DD-fj2ut]

@@smark1180 Be nice.

[@smark1180]

@@DD-fj2ut In what way was I mean?

[@flyboywbl]

I flew from BAK-HXD yesterday and there were big building towers to skirt around. Very turbulent

[@greyjay9202]

This was a recently purchased aircraft. The owner had very few flight hours in it. Probably a factor in this accident. It was his first long flight in the Bonanza. A shame that his children also died in this crash. If you don't have many hours in an aircraft type, don't take anyone up with you, unless they are an experienced pilot in that aircraft type. It sounds like this owner was overconfident, and didn't know how to operate the Bonanza in some weather and flight conditions. Juan, would you care to comment on the recent crash of a Bell 212 helicopter in Iran, carrying high government officials? Bad weather (rain and fog), night operation, in mountain terrain. Will there ever be a proper investigation?

[@ShaunHensley]

Would the official report ever be believed?

[@purrple.shadows]

Why assume that there will be deception? Their civilian accident reports seem to be thorough.

[@ShaunHensley]

@@purrple.shadows Well lack of transparency and accessibility, of course

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

Everyone knows that Mossad put that mountain there and seeded those clouds.

[@DanG-ho7gz]

​@@ShaunHensleySupporting evidence for that statement? Please don't tell us that you are a DTSB subscriber.

[@johnfarrell428]

Forgot to point out I my first comment on this accident two important points: correct maintenance of the Bonanza. They’re are very few AP/IA mechanics that know these aircraft. The “V” structure alone is just one example. It alone has gone through several iterations from the earliest model. It’s critically important to have these inspected by a mechanic thoroughly familiar with them. Finally, these are not new airplanes. The first Bonanza produced was 1947; the last was 1972. These are old airplanes. Treat the V speed numbers accordingly. Properly maintained and flown, these wonderful aircraft are still, as Juan Brown once remarked when flying his C35, “ Cadillac of the sky.”

[@georgehaeh4856]

Back in the 70s and 80s, V35s were getting a bad reputation with similar accidents. Pilots got the message and got properly trained. Unfortunately memories fade over the decades and the required training sometimes doesn't happen until we get a tragic reminder.

[@dermick]

Very true. Tribal knowledge gets lost over time if we don't actively teach to those coming behind us.

[@Indy1977TX]

Juan, thank you for doing this one. I had a personal connection to this flight and was scratching my head about what the weather had been like when reviewing the ADSB data.

[@AvroBus]

Sadly these V-Tails have always been known as 'Doctor Killers'; even back when I started my flying career in the 80s... I logged 1,000 hours in Barons in the early 90s. They are slippery but fun to fly.

[@dirtcurt1]

Lately, the Barons have been biting too.

[@F84Thunderjet]

Good report that is properly constrained from negative comments about the pilot.

[@arts.4014]

Unfortunately, the nickname hits home. Juan, an aircraft from the same era is the NAA Navion (L-17). Although slower, I've thought of it as much more rugged. What are your thoughts of them in comparison to the Bonanza?

[@johnwoodall3791]

In response to Jason's comments on Air Traffic Controllers. I agree with your Comments entirely. ATC is a Job that even us Pilots need to be aware of in that it's one of Extreme Stresses at Times & like Pilots we're only Human. I had a problem once on finals in a 747-400 left seat where an MD80 was told to hold short of the Runway for approaching 747 which was us & then their was a call to him Clear for Take Off. The Aircraft began moving onto the Runway & we were at 3 miles from touchdown & to cut to the chase I simply put the Abort landing procedure into effect & were wheels up & slightly reconfigured for go around & then set up once again. Once down after exiting the Runway for the Taxi I called Controllers & said what happened. The simple answer was I made an error being the Tower Controller & I didn't take the Matter Any Further than that. I was asked if I would like to lodge a formal report & I refused stating we all make mistakes so just because this Controller was having a Bad Day don't you hang him for it or I Will Have Something To Say in Terms of his Defence. I understand ATC thanks to a friend who used to be my Neighbour who upon return to his home Country England became an RAF Air Traffic Controller & is now a Controller at Heathrow after leaving the RAF upon completion of his active Service & I learned a lot from him about ATC. Thanks for doing as many others do a Great Job. Respectfully

[@fanelli57]

So the Fork Tailed Doctor Killer strikes again. Sadly what we are seeing these days I think is because people are learning to fly in aircraft with the latest avionics and autopilots in them then they go and buy a plane such as this one that has some parts of the panel modestly upgraded but the one piece that doesn't come as a fancy glow in the light tv screen, remains, the Century III autopilot. Not being critical of the Century III autopilot, it's a great piece of gear to have in a plane, provided you know how to set it up. It's not a simple matter of hitting the buttons and letting go of the controls, it has to be set correctly as you bring it to life. We have high performance endorsements, high altitude endorsements, is it time for a non glass cockpit endorsement with specialized training to operate older autopilots and avionics?

[@michaelosgood9876]

Thanks for the book recommendations Juan. Aviation books are gold, in any era.

[@FlynBrian]

Is this yet another occurrence of a pilot unable to fly the airplane without the autopilot? As far as what failed first in this crash, that would be the pilot.

[@redb.3885]

I agree, don't these people know how to fly without autopilot? Aviate, navigate, communicate.

[@patrickchase5614]

Unable to fly without the autopilot, or unable to handle a transition from autopilot to hand-flying in IMC? (and maybe throw in adverse trim since it's the Century autopilot)

[@miketype1each]

A sign of the times, that. People want cars which drive themselves, devices which tell them to turn left or right, etc.

[@jackharle1251]

TNFlyHag came back to crash another plane

[@assbread5950]

@@jackharle1251 oof

[@davidd6635]

Thanks again Juan for your excellent updates for us to learn. Sounds like the pressure was On, to get to destination to pick up the daughter, altho increasingly developing weather. As others have commented, Talk to ATC and request help. RIP and condolences to family and friends.

[@James-zp5po]

V 35a we had one for 15 yrs and never a problem

[@lancfly]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the default FlightAware weather radar picture is at the time of departure. While I don't believe it was a factor here, the showers can develop into cells during the flight duration, giving a potentially inaccurate picture of the actual conditions at the time of accident.

[@allanmoore4794]

Many inflight structural failures are due too a "Rolling G" event. Very few civilian pilots even know what this is. When an airplane is rolling the outboard wing panel is not just bending with the added lift created by the aileron, but it is being twisted by the aft location of the aileron. It is the coupling of the bending forces and the twisting forces that can cause the wing to reach structural failure before the (normal 3.8, utility 4.4, Acro 6 G) bending loads written in the owners manual. A common cause is the 'grave yard spiral' the pilot is trying to pull the nose up, adding to the bending loads, when they recognize they are also in a bank they roll without UNLOADING the elevator first. Moreover, the V tail is a ridiculous design. Trying to calculate all the angular loads on the 'V" structure is very difficult compared to intersecting structures at 90' angles in a classic tail. Take note that Beech got it wrong and had to strengthen the tail section by AD mandate. Also, lots of added weight and complexity to the mixing box to convert elevator and rudder inputs. The lousy design had tail waggle issues and required a yaw damper adding more weight and complexity. As the host stated it will need additional analysis to see what failed first. Every pilot needs spiral recover training with the emphasis on UNLOADING BEFORE ROLLING in every airplane all the time. My prayers go out to the family.

[@austinformedude]

Great info! Also one of the the reasons Beech moved to the traditional tail on the later models.

[@someonespadre]

I flew a v tail bonanza for a while. Beautiful but very weird in gusty landing conditions.

[@GregoryWorth-m6l]

That was fascinating and so educational. Thank you for sharing it.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

Interesting post. I had not considered the torsional force of the aileron input, before. I'm not a pilot myself, I'm a former hanger rat. I'm certain that there was an AD on the wing bolts on the Bonanza. I'm going back 7 or 8 years ago, from memory. I clearly remember removing and replacing the wing bolts on these for NDT's. It was one of those PITA jobs, I recall. We had spare, non certified bolts specifically for this job so that we didn't have to remove the wings. It was fiddly and took hours and then, when the tested bolts came back, the process had to be repeated.

[@dmeemd7787]

The first time I ever got to fly an airplane, it was a v-tail bonanza as well.. I don’t recall if it had tip tanks or not.. But I believe it Had a lot of me original stuff in it, Not really any digital dig through that just because that’s how he wanted to keep it and Thing was such a joy to be able to experience flying!! She had a similar thing that Mike Pedi does that all three strike type of thing and it was like 20 years ago, so yeah, this is just always such a sad thing to hear, but I’m really really really glad you do what you do on this channel!!! Most of us would never in a million years hear about any of this if it wasn’t for someone like yourself doing the reporting and analysis for us!!!

[@jorgeB767-3ER]

My youngest brother is a medical doctor making a lot of money and lives in Kentucky, USA. I keep telling him, never buy an airplane and never fly with a doctor colleague who owns an airplane for pleasure flying, and tell him, if you need to go somewhere, fly a commercial airline. Airline pilots are the most proficient since that is their full time job.

[@spaceranger3728]

Nothing wrong with a doctor owning a plane. But, instead of buying a plane that is within his means, he needs to get a plane that is within his abilities. Also, if he can't fly often enough to maintain proficiency, then it's probably not a good idea.

[@2drsdan]

@@spaceranger3728 I have built many homes for multiple doctors over the years and one thing common to every single one was their ego. Ego will get you dead.

[@jorgeB767-3ER]

@@spaceranger3728 Agree 100%. That is the correct formula: '"within his abilities and maintain proficiency'".

[@brandyballoon]

@@spaceranger3728 Agreed. I hear too many stories of low time pilots crashing high performance planes.

[@brucenaremore3433]

I live in Nashville and while the rainfall totals were modest that afternoon, there were strong winds and convection that day, perhaps not borne out on radar..And the cloud cover was much thicker at time of the accident - likely could not get safely under the weather and unable to get above it.

[@awake1563]

That thing has a turbo and is capable of 24k, he should have been able to top that stuff. Not smart but smarter than trying to punch through convection at 200+ knots trying to comply with atc

[@alanpareis734]

Thanks so much. Great job as always. I always learn from your videos.

[@steveprice5664]

When I was an active CFI and hired to check someone out in a very fast, clean airplane, I always made them perform a couple of spiral decents. The purpose was to demonstrate that a Bonanza, Mooney, etc. could go from cruise speed to red line in a matter of seconds. Very eye opening for someone that had only flown C-172s or Cherokees. You have to be very alert to changes in sound and very smooth on recovery. I had a friend that was killed in a Viking that he had purchased only a couple of months before. He was not instrument rated, and no, I never flew with him in that aircraft. These accidents are so sad...

[@mattgrago3349]

The Nashille area had significant convective activity the day of the accident. I wouldn't rule out an embedded thunderstorm or pocket of extreme turbulence. Tragiic loss of life.

[@benjigault9043]

@blancolirio all v tails have magnesium ruddervators. they only make aluminum elevators for 33s and 36 model Bonanzas.