The Release Party - Legion Cohesion

[@commander-fox-q7573]

“Each night you learn who Dave is” is a hilarious amnesiac ability xD

[@Steev42]

I don't think I've ever heard "we are massively ahead of schedule" before.

[@joshuawalker2950]

Great game, really interesting to see evil run around not knowing who each other were. However I really think the poppy grower should’ve been killed 2 or 3 nights in to give evil a fighting chance, especially the night Edd figured out his ability

[@polarbearpresident6093]

thought that the evil team did very well considering how massively unbalanced it was. With two good travellers staying in the entire game, there were almost equal parts good and evil (not how legion is supposed to work), plus an immortal poppygrower and a hugely helpful amnesiac ability. Would've been very impressive if legion had won in the end.

[@BlasphemyBaby]

Not sure I agree with the decision to make both Travelers good? The strength of Legion is overwhelming numbers, so making this game a balance of 7 Legion vs 6 Goods is very close to defeating the point, ESPECIALLY with a Poppy Grower in play (and an Amnesiac who can eventually confirm teams, though that's ancillary). Sure, the ST couldn't know both Travellers would stay on so long, since their transience is literally the point of Travellers, but hedging bets by making at least one evil would have been much more fair imo.

[@q-tuber7034]

I wonder if Andrew P gave up an opportunity to win by self-nominating. If he had nominated Richie, maybe Navean would have gone along with an evil majority.

[@chibiyumeusa]

I think his ship was sunk when he claimed poppy grower on the final four, knowing either Navean or Richie had to be an alive poppy grower since he still hadn't been told his team. Especially with Jamie logged off, there's no way he was going to sway enough good aligned to matter with Richie as poppy grower with a chain of confirmation behind him. Even if it had been Navean and not Richie as poppy grower, if anything that would make her behavior during the game less suspicious: not allowing the harlot check would be totally understandable, being good aligned the whole time, etc, so Adam would have still been hard pressed to get out of a double claim there. He would have been better off changing his claim to one of the bluffs that wasn't bounty hunter, since neither was hard claimed publicly and it would have been a clear signal to his teammates to have his back. Trying to backtrack and claim pixie who saw poppy grower only after another player claimed pixie didn't help his case either, since at that point there would be absolutely no point in maintaining madness as a pixie so there was no justification for him, as pixie, not just telling the "truth" at the start of the round robin.

[@Cojrak]

I like in this game Legion fought this game tooth and nail to the end. Esp. Laurent and Tone. It ain't over 'til it's over!

[@StazzaNeuvell]

Although I enjoyed watching this game I do feel evil didn't have a chance to win because The Poppy Grower was kept alive the whole time, adding that to Edds Amnesiac ability and Edds Edd abilities the good team were allowed to form trust while the evil team where left alone and unable to tell when to vote or who was with them. I think it made the game too unbalanced towards good as the game progressed and untimately there was no way evil could win. I understand Ben did what he felt was right and I don't fault him for making the call but I do think keeping Richie alive the whole time and showing Richie to Edd mean't game over. As I said at the start I still enjoyed watching but towards the end the outcome could only go one way.

[@meathir4921]

Legion failed to nominate Richie when he was VERY cagey.

[@chibiyumeusa]

I disagree, I think it was pretty balanced since the good team never knows who each other are (and still didn't). The fishing hint was always going to benefit legion a little bit but the way it played out was extremely good for them (despite Tone dying) because it, combined with the drunk, created a big pile of misinformation and bad assumptions that fully half the good team believed for at least a major chunk of the second half of the game. Edd was the only townsfolk getting real information and he didn't even get use out of it until night 3 and the only other good person able to get any info was Wildstar, who no one besides Edd played ball with, and who was easy to throw shade on because of their role. Because they all had the same bluffs, they also had clues right out the gate as to who each other were-- enough that by about the halfway point Kohav, at least, had figured out more than half of their team. I think the balance problem was a matter of Edd being on the good team, while players who were inexperienced with these characters/ conditions (like Tone said they were, like Andrew C coming in part way and immediately getting killed by two of their teammates) ended up in Legion.

[@nickburose8286]

@@chibiyumeusa legion is basically a roleless town in a poppy grower game, not exactly balanced when compared to a normal town in a normal game

[@sarahsleamanova2072]

Probably one of the most interesting games so far :D Legion with Poppy Grower. What a game!

[@kimmikkelsen9601]

Anyone else completely mystified by anything and everything Laurant said? Hilarious episode!

[@TheBlackamura]

Great stuff! I'd love to see an evil Edd game.

[@matthewdaunt2904]

Both teams do so well in this game, with the Legion tentatively feeling out for each other, avoiding detection by the good team and trying to coordinate, while Edd manages to avoid execution long enough to gather and confirm enough of the good team with his amnesiac ability. I'm not the biggest fan of travellers on stream, as they tend to start and stick around. But in this game, the balance seems about right, with neither of them coming across too overpowered. I'm really hoping I can attend the UKBGE this year so I can get in on a demo.

[@wildstar2817]

This isn't always true, but a lot of the time people who are travelling on stream do it because they genuinely believe they might have to leave early. In this game, I believe it was mentioned on stream that I would have to leave soon on like day 2. Obviously, this ended up not being the case, but at that point my family was ordering carryout for dinner, it just somehow took like an hour and a half for this sandwich place to prepare food. I remember Ben commenting late game that he was surprised I was still there. I was too. I'm glad it took so long though because this game was a ton of fun!

[@BloodontheClocktower]

I can confirm that for my game where I played as the Matron on stream, it was mainly because I love the Matron and wanted to play it - I definitely planned to be there for the whole game. :D Travellers are great for people arriving late or who will leave early (it's a weird kind of thrill to leave a game early and then text your friends hours later to find out whether you won or not), but this isn't the only application for Travellers. Any player counts higher than 15 will automatically add Travellers; sometimes people want to play a particular Traveller role whose ability they like; and sometimes a person, nearing the end of a long session, will want to play another game but doesn't want to face the stress of being the demon, so they'll ask to play as a Traveller instead. - Evin

[@matthewdaunt2904]

Thanks for the replies. I would like to say that my comment regarding travellers was never meant to be an absolute one. It's just a feeling I have based on my (admittedly limited) experiences of watching games on stream. Travellers just seem like something that requires a delicate balance, especially if they are going to stay for the whole game, as some of them can be very powerful. In this game, I was actually glad that both stuck around as long as they did, because the balance was good and it was nice to see how the Harlot can help to set up a trust circle.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

No worries Matthew, I totally understand. Travellers are a great way to balance an ongoing game if they come in part way through, but it's tougher to get the balance right when the Traveller is there from the start. You're going to be giving one team or another an "extra" player, and without seeing how the game has been playing out so far that can be a tall order. It's one of those fun things that comes with experience, and even then you won't get it right every time. - Evin

[@aidenpearce6624]

A very interesting game, especially the Interaction between poppy grower and Legion and it is very cool to see some of the travlers in action. Is it planned to upload some games with fabeled? The duchess would be something I would love to see.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

There are no explicit plans at this point, but we've been including more Travellers of late when people started asking for more games with Travellers, so feedback like this is useful. Putting Fabled into more scripts isn't as simple as putting Travellers into more games, as Fabled should really only be used to rectify a real-world imbalance or issue with a script. Although, you can create a script with a particular intended Fabled role in mind too - like how the Teensyville script 'Race to the Bottom' was built with the Doomsayer in mind, with the intention that almost all games of 'Race to the Bottom' should end on day one. The Duchess is a great Fabled role, and if someone went into one of the regular script competitions with a lot of 'power' Townsfolk over 'information' Townsfolk, and the Duchess as a suggested Fabled, I reckon it would be fun to see too. - Evin

[@wildstar2817]

We played with the Duchess on the US stream last Sunday. I don't think that will be uploaded to KZbin, but the VOD will be on Twitch for another week I believe it's the second game of this stream: www.twitch.tv/videos/1055494499

[@BloodontheClocktower]

Now that we're Twitch Partner, it should be around for 60 days from when it went up. Plenty of time for people to catch it. :) - Evin

[@q-tuber7034]

Legion game question: if a majority that includes a good player votes to execute, and an even larger majority with no good player also votes to execute, does the former execution go through (as the valid vote with the biggest majority), or is there no execution (because the vote with the biggest majority was invalid)?

[@WazzaAzza]

Yes, the previous execution goes through as it managed to receive another votes, a legion-only vote counts as 0 votes, meaning it'll go to the one below it.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

I can confirm that Wazza is correct - the previous execution would go through as any votes with only Legion voting would count as zero votes. - Evin

[@tweetert.9978]

I believe this is one of the best ways to determine a legion game. Vote counts and who is voting is so huge in one of these Legion games.

[@mikepictor]

That was oddly worded fisherman advice. I think I get what you were going for, but I don’t think it had the right effect.

[@Edrysian]

I’m aware it’s probably been a while since you last watched this so here’s a time stamp to help 45:20. But would you mind explaining what you think Ben was going for with that fisherman advice because I can’t figure out what on earth he means? Granted it’s late at night when I’m listening to this and I haven’t made it to the end of the video yet so my question might be answered later on. However, it was really confusing me so I thought I’d come and check the comments to see if anyone else had some thoughts on it.

[@Timlagor]

@@Edrysian Another year has gone by so it feels like the right time to respond to this question. From his comments at the end, I think Ben had a brainfart and thought Duke was on the good team. "Be conservative with.." would have been good solid advice but 4x"very" when she absolutely should have used it once sabotaged her badly and kept Duke alive far longer. "Be wary of..." would also have been good advice as it could have implicated Duke.

[@mattclemson]

Minor spoilery question since it's in the context of a comment in the endgame: What would a "Pixie Poppy Grower" actually mean? The Poppy Grower ability to reveal to the evil team is triggered by the PG's death, and the Pixie gaining that ability wouldn't force that particular genie back into the bottle. Or is there a jinx allowing for the second PG to take over from the first seamlessly?

[@BloodontheClocktower]

There's no jinx, but the Pixie gains the ability, preventing evil from learning each other at the same moment that the PG ability tries to make them learn each other. - Ben

[@mattclemson]

@@BloodontheClocktower Aaah, I follow, so would I be right in saying that *mechanically* it'd be reasonable to think of it as "Poppy grower death triggers another Night 1-esque 'Evil Learns Evil' phase" which in turn is *then* blocked by the new PG that is created simultaneously with the daeth? I think I had it in my head previously as *specifically* "PG prevents the night 1 'Evil Learns Evil'" phase, with the subsequent PG-death triggered Evil Learns Evil being a distinct occurrence. It always pays to read the token *very* precisely! (I am now wondering if there's any other Evil Learns Evil interactions that would also be prevented by a PG... which aren't trivial for Evil to unravel like a Mezepheles turning a townsfolk)

[@OlaRozenfeld]

I like to think about this as: the Pixie's ability is similar to the Scarlet Woman, in the trigger sense -- both their abilities trigger immediately upon another character's death, with no gap in-between to allow for any other events to trigger.

[@anarchy7535]

This was a great game to watch except for one detail. Hazel got a role whose power is meant to be ONE PIECE of very good info for her to progress the game well. It was phrases so poorly and not confirmed that she understood what was intended that she basically got the information "You should really trust this member of the bad team." The advice NEEDED to be something closer to "The Gangster is a powerful resource this game, but don't go overboard." Because realistically she was told "Duke is good" instead of "everyone along that line EXCEPT Duke is good." If I got a role that's meant to get one piece of advice, and found out at the end the advice pointed me towards trusting all the wrong people, I'd be so salty.

[@edfries2002]

Finally a legion!!!

[@troyBORG]

59:14 I heard "Richy nominate a bed"

[@eveoftheroses3766]

Also am I the only one who heard at 1:01:59 "Hazel dominates Navean~" because O- and I cannot empahsise this enough-wO

[@MrJG93]

All hail the legion!

[@AlexH274]

Jamie and Laurent both nominated the same person on day 2. Mistake?

[@ImaginaryMdA]

You're referring to when Jamie tried to shoot Hazel? That's not a nomination, but the gangster ability triggering.

[@AlexH274]

@@ImaginaryMdA No, I'm speaking about nominations.

[@fleacythesheepgirl]

This game seems so hard to run as a storyteller 😵‍💫

[@AnxiousChazz]

Daddy Ben ❤

[@coupdq9race16]

Father Benjamin

[@AnxiousChazz]

@@coupdq9race16 Atar Máfortion

[@MrJG93]

What music are you listening to?

[@BloodontheClocktower]

It's just a royalty free streaming synth playlist that I put together. Lots of people seem to love it, which is great! - Ben

[@Ragan31687]

As someone new to this scripts, I would suggest that the channel makes a pinned comment with the roles? Or is there somewhere I can see everything? I guess I’m spoiled because I started watching this game on No Rolls Barred. Ben always explains all of the roles before the game over on that channel.

[@brennag7962]

I believe the travelers are the only ones not written in the on-screen script due to technically being extra. There's a Blood on the Clock Tower Wiki with tons of extra information about roles, clarification, and strategies that's really fun to check out and can help a lot for understanding roles you've never seen/played before.

[@Ragan31687]

@@brennag7962 True but the roles on the screen are very small and having to go back and forth to the wiki makes a 2 hour video even longer

[@yourgrammarisnotverygood1827]

There's a link in the description to the script they're using.

[@HonestAuntyElle]

​@@Ragan31687if small, I'm assuming you are on mobile. Make sure you are watching in high quality, and you can pinch to zoom these days.

[@TalesNT]

Am I the only one watching the streams live and then getting bored during the week and watching the same games on youtube?

[@acgijzen]

Nope

[@endeavour12ghahstqw]

Incredibly poorly balanced game. Very bad ST performance in keeping the evil team in the race, not even to mention the terrible fisherman advice.