Player Perspective - Secluded Psychopathy

[@alelouya1]

I really appreciate the part about choosing being something done voluntarily and not under pressure from the other players!

[@KeenX72]

Agreed, but I think it'd also be fair for an ST to let it happen, it's and interesting tactic and I feel like it wouldn't mess with balance too much

[@hannahbbug3532]

@@KeenX72 I don't think encouraging play like this would be an interesting tactic, especially if it is forcing players to reveal information that they don't want outed. That doesn't sound enjoyable for the players involved. It could be viewed as a strategy, yes, but coercing others to do something for your benefit is not exactly a kind thing to do or something that makes people want to come back and play again. I think it falls more under "exploiting the mechanics" than "strategy," tbh.

[@Naelhinn]

@@KeenX72 But then it essentially 100% nullifies the pyschopath. Pressure everyone to psychopath kill themselves, if they refuse, they are most likely evil/psychopath (if w'ere assuming try harding to win for your team, which coercing people definitely is). Good people and non psychopath evil can do it, and then you're left with 4 outcomes 1) everyone but 1 person does it, and so you know who is the psychopath and try to exe him 2) everyone does it, and so you, for NO COST, learned that there is no psychopath, and thus can more accurately pinpoint what minions are in play 3) the psychopath kills themselves 4) the psychopath kills someone else on day 1 So yes, it is a strat that 100% beneficiates town without any chance to obfuscate it. The only caveat would be to have a poisoner immediately poison their minion on D1, but that's just so counterintuitive because you risk doing more harm as you don't know what your minion is. The last option is, theoretically, quite close to how people might play it already, but you're still forcing the psychopath to come out, nullifying any attempt at concealment. It nerfs the psychopaths by making it unconcealable, but also by narrowing down the minions in play if it is not. So balancewise, it does mess with it quite a lot. Finally, it's a game, and that kind of strategy would probably be socially disastrous, and would definitely risk people feeling unwelcome and not coming back. Finally, it's not just an issue about the psychopath because sure, you could just not play any script with the psychopath in it, but if you're willing to do that kind of strategy, I doubt it will stop at the psychopath, and it feels like a meh way to play and enjoy BOTC with your friends.

[@berdyie]

@@KeenX72 Two other people have already said why but I really feel it necessary to clarify: no, it absolutely is not. Forcing people to claim and/or act (same with Damsel guesses) is a quick way to make everyone in the circle miserable.

[@OlaRozenfeld]

@@KeenX72 It would break certain abilities completely, like the Damsel. As @berdyie said, town could just force everyone to claim Minion and guess "X is the Damsel" day 1. So great call on Ben's part, this should be nipped in the bud.

[@corporeal5347]

Ben's message about agency does so much for the game and the community. I'm certain he would have said it if he was a townsfolk too

[@berdyie]

Obviously Ben had good reason to fight against it in this game (as the Psychopath), but I'm very happy he touched on the "forcing claims/ability usage is not fair and can be ignored" thing. It's a small thing that only comes up occasionally, but if the ST allows players to create this meta, every character related to it will become not fun REALLY quick. Obviously players will always be trying to create metas, on both teams, to get as much of an advantage as possible, but this one is particularly toxic and just downright incredibly unfun.

[@cghensi]

I once had to ignore a Mutant claiming outsider because the person they were talking to coaxed them into it through a really convoluted thing and would not let the conversation end until they put Outsiders in their claims.

[@berdyie]

@@cghensi Yeah no that's pretty crappy from the coaxing player. I mean it's a pretty evil move so I can't say I've heard of a whole town allowing it to happen without the coaxing player becoming an outed evil, but regardless of alignment that's definitely something that needs to be clamped down on. It's not really fair, and definitely not fun.

[@whocares2277]

It completely breaks the damsel if you go around and ask everyone to guess themselves as damsel on day 1. Yes it's helping the good team, but why play a damsel script if you do that.

[@alchemicpink2392]

@@whocares2277 Oh yeah, if a round damsel robin starts I'd shut that down with "I am not accepting any coerced claims of minions picking Damsels." This is a social deduction game, not Simon Says.

[@Miraxik]

Metas can be okay because players can just choose to play against the meta. But running town by a committee and forcing public acting roles to act for a check is just boring and unpleasant and not fun for everyone apart from the person who's forcing people to prove themselves. And I don't like autocrats like that in my games.

[@chris5632]

From Kat being so happy when she figured out the Amne ability with Iris to realizing she was the drunk and was strung along by Ben the whole game was awesome to watch

[@johnloper]

Every game that gets posted on KZbin has a quote that I think about for the next couple days and 30 minutes in “But kittens, I don’t care I’m a psychopath” is a strong contender

[@wjhull]

Wow, that was a heck of a string of dominoes that locked the game at the end. Avery gave a fake amnesiac ability to Iris, which Kat applied to Jacqui's fake Chambermaid info to implicate Jojo, right after he exorcised the actual demon in a night where there were no kills for entirely unrelated reasons.

[@fauxparadox]

Psyochopath player perspective!!??? You are too nice to us!

[@DasGanon]

Happy Birthday Nicky!!!

[@Steev42]

Ben playing *amazingly* for good, all but outing his demon, and still pulled it out in the end.

[@BatteriesNotRequired]

When this is the comment KZbin displays under the video, spoiling the end 10 minutes in :(

[@Steev42]

@@BatteriesNotRequired Sorry. :(

[@Iejir_Isk]

Kat's parting line before reveal was great XD

[@sofiipote7]

It had "et tu, Brute" energy. She felt so betrayed lol

[@tremkl]

The look on Kat's face was so priceless. Poor Kat

[@katherineinskip9056]

I was sooooo betrayed! #RalphWiggumValentineMeme

[@tremkl]

@@katherineinskip9056 Oh no! 😆 For what it's worth, one of the real highlights of the episode is you solving the most nonsense, made up Amnesiac info in a way that would have been super thematic to the grim and could totally have been plausible. ❤

[@sofiipote7]

@@katherineinskip9056 that moment had strong "et tu, Brute" energy. It was amazing

[@kyleb8117]

Crazy how good this game was. A cut above the rest. Well played, Ben!

[@ZekeBittersweet]

Beautiful choice Nicky, happy late birthday! Loved Kat's reaction at the end too

[@MarsUniversity]

Maggot Panic is indeed a good metal band name.

[@alchemicpink2392]

Almost as good as Keytar Velociraptors

[@_faythene]

The patience of this psychopath, weow

[@sdspivey]

2 nights of no deaths, but no one was saying it could be Yagga.

[@Klondike1000]

Proof that a psychopath doesn't have to act like a psychopath to win the game, lol. Well played.

[@l4zykyle]

Loved this so much live, I had to watch it again! Thanks Ben!

[@sofiipote7]

Same! I don't usually like rewatching games so soon, because I remember everything and it's not as fun, but this one was an exception, I enjoyed it so much I was waiting for it to uploaded so I could watch it again honestly

[@kathleenstrahm4291]

Oh man, the patience it took to not just start offing people! It was well done…beautifully executed!

[@Paint_The_Future]

Such restraint.

[@laurena3460]

I always get excited when Maggot is in a game, his delighted giggling makes me so happy

[@Schloober]

Wooo! I guess I was saved from having to go to bed. Thanks!

[@waterbucketfarms6276]

The beginning made me think it could be fun to do a one off game where the players don't know their roles. Maybe their alignment, or maybe evil would know their roles, it would need experimentation. But anyway, everyone would basically be amne, but would know the pool of options they could be. Some roles would definitely be easier to figure out then others.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

We've played 'blind TB' a few times on stream, where nobody is given their roles. It was predictably chaotic, haha. - Ben

[@miguel7888]

Oh I remember this game, excellently played from the Evil team.

[@KrazyCouch2]

In person, I'd always give things like a Psychopath or a Minion in a Damsel game a weird hand symbol or a phrase that no one else knows, so if they actually want to use their ability, even if they're being coerced, they can just say the phrase or use the symbol. Much easier online with the chat feature though!

[@OnlyDaz]

For clarity sake. I've always had it in my head that a Po can't charge/choose no one 2 times in a row right? The ability says "if your last choice was no one, choose 3 tonight" or something similar. Not "you may choose 3". Wonder if they'll change that. Cause I always thought that they then HAD to choose 3 which means the minstrel drunking nerfs the Po charge perfectly causing the 3 kills fail. Then the Po has to charge again? Could someone clarify that?

[@user-qe9wg5pr9b]

As I understand the wiki, the Po retains the charge if picked by the Exorcist. However, the Exorcist was also Minstrel drunk that night, so their ability should not have functioned. Unless I'm missing something, I agree that the Po should have lost their charge during the Minstrel night.

[@omegonchris]

From the Wiki, I'd say you're correct, even though the Po was drunk, the Po should have been asked to select 3 players, which consumes the charge. Small ST error, but understandable given a complex intersection of a drunk Po being selected by a drunk Exorcist

[@Miraxik]

That came out of me asking Kohav to pick three and Kohav asking if she could hold - in that moment I was like "umm, I guess that sounds like a more fun game for you" - but that's definitely not within the rules 😅

[@fullerdb]

@@Miraxik Fun only happens when the rules are followed, imho. :-(

[@alchemicpink2392]

Glad to see that Avery is still a Riot as always ♥

[@DakotaAvery23]

Aweeeee thank you

[@josephjoestar3631]

1:15:50 this might be the ONLY game where you can tell someone to unalive themself and it isn't considered threatening or demeaning at all😆

[@omg2manyusers]

I’ve just had an idea for a demon! I’m calling it the Mirror Spirit. "Each night*, choose one player; they die. There are two Mirror Spirits in play, both of whom know three not-in-play characters and who the other Mirror Spirit is. If both Mirror Spirits choose the same player, both wake up one more time to attack a second player each. Good wins if only one Mirror Spirit is alive and no other Evil player is. [-1 Minion]" Obviously, this needs a lot of balancing and is clearly suited to larger games, but I feel it has a Bad Moon Rising feeling to it about determining how whom died revealing the Spirits.

[@omg2manyusers]

Had some time to wake up, meditated on the idea, realised it’s bonkers. Considering an alternative… “There are two Mirror Spirits in play. During setup, Minions only learn one Mirror Spirit and only one Mirror Spirit learns the minions. At night, both choose a player. If both choose the same player, that player dies. At any time during the day, a Mirror Spirit may privately guess the other Mirror Spirit with the Storyteller. If correct, any player chosen by a Mirror Spirit dies if chosen at night. [-1 Minion]” Finally giving the evil team a reason to visit the Storyteller helps reinforce a Fisher/Savant/Artist bluff.

[@omg2manyusers]

Oh, I’d need to acknowledge what happens if one Mirror Spirit dies. Either the other can’t kill if they didn’t find the other Mirror Spirit, meaning good just needs to find and execute them; or the remaining Mirror Spirit can kill one per night with no extra abilities.

[@YTFlove4ever]

Why do people put an asterisk after night but never explain the asterisk??!! It's that way I'm official scripts too

[@omg2manyusers]

@@YTFlove4ever It always means the same thing; "each night except the first". The explanation is in the instruction manual for the game proper.

[@YTFlove4ever]

@@omg2manyusers thanks

[@ribbonquest]

Very interesting sequence of events those last few days.

[@HeroGuy]

Happy Birthday Nicky!

[@lordkandar]

I don't know what Iris is talking about. They have a great accent.

[@jchagasla]

Chef's kiss. Pun intended.

[@bon1326]

In a ojo game, if the ojo chooses Village idiot,can more than one person die?

[@OnlyDaz]

Nope.

[@Miraxik]

The ST would choose one of the idiots to die.

[@BobHerzog1962]

It seems very odd to run it with conversations at night. Certainly works online with how the system works, but given I only played it live it is still very odd.

[@efarien140]

It's quite nice for a number of reasons actually! For the ST, it lessens some of the audio pressure around the circle, so actions in the night are less noticible to sleeping townsfolk. For the players, it's nice to just be able to chit-chat while the night happens, otherwise you're just stuck there staring at your own eyelids for 5 minutes

[@comp.lex4]

@@efarien140 i think they were referring to how, in the games on this channel, the st wakes players by pulling them into a private chat in the middle of the night

[@efarien140]

​@comp.lex4 that makes perfect sense lol, yep

[@moemm299]

I haven't watched enough games to know if its an issue but I wonder how much metagaming there is with chatting at night. Like "This player is quiet early in the night they must be a demon/minion choosing someone" or "This person is chatting throughout the night they must be a non waking role."

[@comp.lex4]

@@moemm299 this is the exact reason that in-app messages are typically preferred-- however, if you are running games with night time voice chats, it's typically not too hard to just ask players to not think too hard about that sort of thing

[@Dbzwrestlefan727]

Hello everyone, not sure if this is the best place to do this, but going to give it a try, I have watching blood on the clocktower on KZbin for years and just now been able to get a PC so i was wounding if anyone have advice/ or assist me in getting started playing because there nobody in my area that actually play the game. I would appreciate it thanks

[@BloodontheClocktower]

If you sign up for the app at www.patreon.com/botconline, you will get access to the official Discord server, which has a community of players who'll be happy to introduce you to the game. - Ben

[@balanceseeker]

Lesson learned: Listen to JoJo

[@TEM7007]

Great game, but i was screaming at my screen to axe jojo on day 3. It would have guaranteed 3 kills on good players that night, then you axe the next day and you're on final 3 with likely avery and kohav

[@StepanHruda]

Funnily enough it would have probably lost the game - it would have given JoJo credibility, confirmed Jacqui as evil, Minstrel day would still happen, so no kills and then people would turn towards Kohav who was confirming Jacqui.

[@caitlinreuterskiold5828]

Ooooooooh I clicked this so fast!