Is There an Indian Road to Equality? | Ramachandra Guha

[@rikji6043]

A great Indian, shining a light on India. Long may you write and speak out.

[@rameshwardass640]

A great historian of new Era 👌

[@butalalajmera3627]

Great 👍

[@rex99xx]

How rude of an attendee to talk on the phone during a lecture of as high a caliber as this!

[@awesomeraj953]

Thank you for uploading it in such a short time

[@sujanikoya2826]

Tiny teeny mistake he made - 'Scientists are atheists' - Some are, some aren't, just like in the general population

[@zxvats]

99.9% are atheist or non religious

[@ravin2363]

sujani koya mostly they have to. They can't rely on a mythical entity to guide their satellite.

[@himanshujain3650]

@@zxvats are you a scientist ??

[@zxvats]

@@himanshujain3650 No but I am science student.

[@tsmkris]

I don't remember the source but majority of Indian scientists are not atheists. US is in a similar situation though their atheists % are more than India. European scientists are largely atheists.

[@leanderbarreto6523]

U can't have a truly equal society

[@learningislife212]

Right differences would be there But what we should oppose is differences (or rather discrimination) based on ascribed characteristics , those determined by birth

[@EejuVava]

That retired dude from armed forces is the definition of confirmation bias. He wants people to read a "blog" and goes on to warn women from visiting Sabarimala. If the constitution governed supreme court overrules medieval practises, men like these resort to warning women of stillbirth and pregnancy related issues. What a maroon!

[@vivz1000]

Atheism, without raising the consciousness of the masses and some semblance of financial security will just lead to increased crimes.

[@ejaaz7260]

Islam doesn't say God is male. It actually doesn't say anything about that. According to Islam, God is not human. So, things like gender and colour are irrelevant. Enjoyed speech tho. 👍

[@AB-jw5mg]

This is real idea of india.

[@govindmatondkar7502]

motivational

[@ronthomas8331]

Why don't they teach this at school.

[@paddy311272]

Guha ji God's are not in temples, they are everywhere, they are at home in every Hindus. So why can't Dalits have a God photo in their home and avoid going to Temple. I as a Hindu never wanted to go into other religious places. if some Dalits says he wants to pray only in temple then that is politics and not religion.

[@dram4380]

mention of Rohit Vemulla isn't suitable for this case of caste discrimination. here is a young guy committing suicide for the reasons not limiting the the so called caste discrimination.. but the politics played it quite well and encashed this sad and disappointing story..

[@nidhisood634]

44:00 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@manojpulivarthy9179]

Brahmanical scriptures sanctioned discrimination.First Vedic ancient writers did it .Those writings wrote by sudo sages should be reformed and rewrite.Social reform is not a cure ,it is a remedy ,only it can be cured so easily by removing the discriminative slokas from vedas ,Puranas,and githa

[@dsbdsb6637]

What about texts which decries any kind of social divisions ? Which are more applicable ? For e.g. - Apastambha Dharmasutra - Puts community practice & wisdom above Vedas. Vajrasuchi Upanishad - Question all sorts of social divisions. Even Manusmriti does have it's liberal components like , ownership rights of women, Swayamvar marriage etc. From Hindu texts one would assume that Priestly class controlled everyone else including Kings, Kshatriyas & so on but from epigraphical sources one find that this is not a tenable position as kings have been able to rule over all subjects including Brahmins. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqvamJmuaqiCopI - Check all 3 parts of this talk where Kesvan Veluthat discusses religious History & note how Upanishads was a counter against Brahmins & result of this endavour by Kshatriyas. This talk by Mr. Guha is far too superficial since it simply repeats the existing narratives instead of actually dealing with the insights from latest studies about these issues.

[@rikji6043]

Gandhi was fighting the British. At the same time he was also fighting India. Discrimination and hierarchy. Amazingly perceptive quote.

[@toushifhassan1562]

In Islam, God is neither male nor female......it is figureless, shapeless and genderless...

[@gopalakrishnanonvinkere4335]

According to some Hindu text Women of all castes and all lower castes could not get Moksha or attain the ultimate salvation

[@sivac5877]

There's no such text. Please produce one.

[@himanshujain3650]

Can you please enlighten by mentioning the name of such "religious" text.. I hope religious texts are not those written by "liberal thinkers commentaries" In serious note if u really know about any such religious text pls do inform.

[@Deepak-zn6tb]

It is fallacious to equate the Indian scriptures with Christian and Islamic scriptures. How many Hindus have seen or read the vedas or heard it being preached in temples? How many have any of the Vedas in their homes? What do the Bible and the Quran say about the treatment of slaves ? Is that not the Homo-hierarchicus ?

[@ravin2363]

Deepak vedas were kept away from the reach of common people and lower castes, that's why other Greater religions like Buddhism evolved. Unfortunately those religions again became the same orthodox systems of rituals and traditions like hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Now all of them have become irrelevant from the perspective of present day conditions.

[@sivac5877]

@@ravin2363 wrong. Nobody locked up the Vedas. They come naturally encrypted and insulated. It has six keys to decode with. Only the one with very fine perception and sincere attitude can understand its import. What more, it's not only on the Internet but everywhere in the air. As I said only fine perception is required to get it from the air. Check out Maharshi Daivarata.

[@sasdasbd]

He is completely wrong on the part of British impact on Indian society. He wrongly analyzed ancient Indian civilization from the lens of the 21st-century idea of social justice and equality, rather he should compare against other ancient civilizations of the same time-frame. Indian civilization was much more liberal than Greek/Roman civilization (which is the precursor of modern western civilization) in terms gender and caste equality until 8th century AD, as mentioned by Greek historians in 'Indica' and Chinese travelogues of Huyen Tsang. Later, Indian society became more orthodox in terms of gender and caste discriminations in the medieval era, which is agreed by the most scholars. However, Indian society reverted itself to complete equality of gender and caste during the Bhakti movement which started from the south in the 10th century by Alwars and Nayanars, and swept all over India gradually breaking all gender and caste barriers, made Kabir, Ravidas, Meera, Haridas Thakur saints! It happened much before Muslims and British invaded India. British colonials always wanted to portray Indian civilizations inferior and thus exaggerated caste and gender oppression. Indian society abolished slavery much before Americans and Britain did, India granted equal voting rights for all citizens before many western countries (Switzerland granted women vote in 1971). Even in current modern 21st century Britain, the head of the kingdom MUST be an Anglican Christian, while in India a minority became head of the state multiple times both now and before in history(e.g., Shunga kings from Sudra caste). Many Americans still cannot accept a woman as head of state, while Sarojini Naidu (by his own statement) became head of the party in 1925. So, how can he blame ancient Indian civilization as most obnoxious and hierarchical inflicting in self-contradictory? Mr. Guha lost his temper completely when he did not allow his dissenter to finish his question at 49:00.

[@titaboria]

Sarojini Naidu was an imposed leader, blessed vy the top male leader. That is not genuine female liberation. Indira Gandhi is, she fought off opponents and became a leader in her own right.

[@yashwanthkumar1419]

Easy for you to say that Caste discrimination was exaggerated since your ancestors might not have come from those ppl who were born to clear carcasses and human waste. Not only them but their progeny also were allowed to do only that work. If that was not enough they were banned from drinking from village wells. Animals had a better life than these ppl. You have been blinded by the nationalism that you are so proud of. About slavery even today you here about people being rescued from bonded slavery. My grandfather was a bonded slave his whole life. I am sorry to say this country is not as progressive as you think it to be nor is it to be proud of . Even today an illiterate will show arrogance to a doctor simply because the doctor is a dalit. Just by whataboutery you cannot get away from the things that plague this country. Together we can change it for our future generations but first you'll have to accept reality instead of looking through your right wing spectacles. P.S. discrimination in India is not exaggerated

[@sasdasbd]

​@@yashwanthkumar1419 I completely agree and sympathetic with what happened with lower caste people in this country. I completely want equal rights for Dalit and its a long process. We all have work towards removing such caste boundaries. What I wanted to emphasize is that we have to change ourselves through education and policy reforms, but we should not let western people to intervene on this matter. If you observe retrospectively, you should feel proud that the discrimination has been reduced from what it was 100 years ago. Dalits can now study, get good job, pray equally in temples. Inter-caste marriage has increased to about 10-15%, which was almost impossible in 50 years ago. So, we are progressing and we should be hopeful to eradicate all this caste barriers once Indians become more economically solvent and educated. PS: Thats why I think discrimination has been reduced gradually post independence, but we need to work harder to eradicate it completely. PS: Do not judge people easily and paint somebody easily as right-winger. Argue on facts and points rather then being political fanatics!

[@yourlittlefriend861]

@@sasdasbd kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnW8lHeFYpufmLc

[@prasad7553]

Equality is a myth. Human beings have never been equal. Human beings have always been different. Otherwise there will be one type of animal and plant. There is nothing wrong being different. What democracy should aim is equal opportumity.

[@learningislife212]

Right differences would be there But what we should oppose is differences (or rather discrimination) based on ascribed characteristics , those determined by birth

[@paddy311272]

There was not a single fight between Dalits and the oppressor prior to 1900 .Those who keep high lighting this in modern era when all facility is available for their improvisation including government support by resercations and still Dalits keep asking for more rights. Why cat they just start working hard. Already so called forward caste many brainy people have gone to US and improved other countries and not India. In India after reservations we still have worst roads and facilities so these guys can keep talking of inequivalities. Guha ji all your research are bias against Hindus as as a whole.

[@productfromfuture8582]

the most bullshit argument even from guha level

[@manubhatt3]

26:48 - Ramachandra Guha showing signs of getting old.

[@rajhegde5955]

He is fit to be a decent scholar had if he limited himself to economics and Cricket He is terribly unfit to talk anything on India, Hindusim and ofcourse his favorite subject history 😉😀 Terrible pathetic mind 😪😕 Such a horrible low quality talk 😅😅

[@nirvanabliss73]

Can you provide data points on why he is a pathetic mind and why it is a low quality talk....

[@rajhegde5955]

@@nirvanabliss73 No need to do so. If you have some depth of knowldge of Indian freedom struggle, you would know naturally that he is hiding lot of details from you during the talk. If you can not make those points yourself, then it is your ignorance of lot of left put details. Don't take so much trouble. Keep listening to him or people like him all these socialist left librandos of India or elsewhere of the world. They would keep brain washing with fake narratives. Good luck

[@nirvanabliss73]

@@rajhegde5955 ok. So you hav no detailed data points to offer. Ok.

[@rajhegde5955]

@@nirvanabliss73 No need for anyone like you who don't try to read an develop depth. All the data points you are looking for are self explanatory if you have some depth of real history. Hence don't take pain.

[@nirvanabliss73]

@@rajhegde5955 it is your dharma to belittle and demean. So be it.....

[@paddy311272]

Guha ji, you are wrong, caste system in holy book of Gita does not descriminate, but it mentions about humans with various intelligence level( due to evolution of species) and how society as a whole should function peacefully making use of all resources. In a organisation if you practise this then you say it is good management but if the same is said in religion then you say we have discriminated. This is clearly mentioned in Gita. I think you concluded your study without reading all scripts. Untouchability might have been created only to avoid any disease spreading as we know earlier times science was not so developed. This was just a self defence to avoid getting sick. Hindu kings had many wives not Hindus. When Lord Ram married he married and lived for one woman, Krishna had two wife's. So we had all types of situations with respect to king life in Indian history and comparing their life with ordinary Hindu family is wrong. Can you show in our scripture where it mentions having two wife is legal or correct( even though many kings with desires practised this.) Lord Ram was an example to show to other kings during his tenure that men can be happy with single marriage too if wife is kind But in other religious text, it clearly gives guidance to kill other religious men and loot their wife and allows them to have upto four wives.. we had women gods and we have women priests also in many temples. If you see that way women are always chief nurse in any hospital why don't men be given Chief nurse position. Certain jobs are done by men and not liked by women. Opposite is also true.

[@Badrn100]

This literary fest is becoming a big joke with participants like Tharoor and Guha who looks like cousins . Guha us at best can write some books on cricket and certainly not on Hindu culture. He is adamant to understand the real Hinduism . At best he is not a qualified speaker. The organisers can rename the fest as literary fest for abusing Hindus.

[@nirvanabliss73]

why is he not a qualified speaker? Can you pls provide data points

[@Badrn100]

@@nirvanabliss73 his controversial outbursts and mocking beef eating in public .

[@nirvanabliss73]

@@Badrn100 what controversial outbursts. Can you pls elaborate.. Also what does his beef eating have to do with his not being a qualified speaker?

[@manubhatt3]

I don't know why so much hypocrisy and double standards in intellectuals like Ramachandra Guha! When politics and political groupings happen on the basis of religion, then these people raise objections citing the secular nature of our constitution and that it is wrong to discriminate on the basis of religion, BUT when it does happen on the basis of castes(dalits), these people have no problem. If upper caste people engage in casteist activities, then it is a problem, but when lower caste people indulge in them, then its not. Why? Please don't divide this country needlessly and forcefully by strengthening and validating the distinctions and lines between people(on whatever basis they are), instead try to blur and eliminate those lines of differences.

[@sujanikoya2826]

And these differences can be blurred by first acknowledging them. Acknowledging the atrocities Dalits faced in the past and present and their micro-violations they are forced to endure

[@ManishKumar-uf9tx]

@Abhay Bhatt The distinction of upper and lower caste itself explains everything. So, what kind of casteist activities does upper caste people and lower caste people engage in? What do you define by casteist activity? You're just making a sweeping generalizations here which don't help to convey your point.

[@manubhatt3]

@@ManishKumar-uf9tx Forming groupings based on caste, doing activities based on caste, forming and spreading wrong hateful opinions based on caste - this is what I consider one of many casteist activities. I will also like to emphasise here that many times(including in Rohith Vemula case), the Dalits 'react' rather than 'respond' to the injustice or atrocities they suffer. They form groups based on caste, identify themselves even more on caste basis - eventually making the distinctions and caste differences even more strong rather than breaking or blurring them. If dalits will have this kind of attitude - 'Be proud of being a dalit', then this is totally unproductive. Instead, they should emphasise on humanity and say 'be proud of being a human'. When an upper caste person does wrong to a dalit, usually he/she falls trap to this whole idea/category of 'caste'. Instead of eliminating this whole category, he/she falls victim to it, by identifying him/herself as both a dalit and a victim. Then he forms whole large groups based on this same idea, he is purportedly fighting against! Sees other people around him on the basis of caste rather than just humans. It's just plain and simple 'reactionary'. If a dalit responds like 'Don't treat me like that - I and you, both are human, and there are no differences between us as you think they are. I am not a dalit, neither you are a 'Brahmin', we all are just humans, and even if I have to hate something, I hate you, not your caste' - now that's a truly idealistic and defensive(non-aggressive) stance, which has the least possibility of aggravating the issue and the distinctions. All in all, if you think deeply about it, what I am proposing, has some parallels with the whole idea of 'non-violence' by Gandhi. Violence prompts more violence, and likewise what dalits are doing in India, will prompt more fights, more distinctions and differences among people.

[@manubhatt3]

@@sujanikoya2826 I agree with you 100% but the acknowledgment should not be done by being more casteist, identifying oneself strongly with one's caste, and thus strengthening the lines of differences. To give an example: why do dalits so vehemently idolize and worship Ambedkar and only Ambedkar? Why do they need a 'DALIT' icon? If they really want to rise above caste and eliminate this category of thinking, they should praise and respect any person from any caste who has helped their cause(like Gandhi). If someone is imposing on me the idea that he/she is superior, and then I react and start imposing on him/her that I am superior than him/her - is that really productive? will that not escalate and aggravate the situation? A proper and wise response is to assert that I am equal to him/her and I will not accept his imposition. Unfortunately, you see only the former kind of 'reaction' in dalits, not the latter kind of 'response'.

[@manubhatt3]

And I will like to point out one more important thing here:- Neurotypicals have no idea about mental illnesses and the real cause of suicides in most cases. In most cases, the cause of suicide is the mental illness itself(like severe depression) rather than some external cause. I was about to commit suicide after failing in love, and at that moment I did think of her as the cause of my death, BUT when I introspected and analysed rigorously, I didn't find her to be at fault. In my view, my mental illness was the cause of most of my miseries. Every human loves to externalise his/her problems, to victimise themselves and to find causes and faults in other than in themselves. Remember that!

[@rakeshyadav8601]

So u realise that depression is a result and it has some stimulus attached to it and daily discrimination is a potent cause that can act as an stimulus. Itsn't it? Don't be apologetic about systemic wrongs committed and perfected in our religion by brahmins towards dalits, be brave and accept it and if possible and if u have guts go gather your fellow brahmins and say them that they should allow their daughters and sons to marry from dalits, listen through thier reactions and words that what discrimination Ramachandra guha is talking about. To feel someone's extent of pain u sometimes have to be one.

[@manubhatt3]

@@rakeshyadav8601 Depression does have a stimulus attached to it, but you have to see that in context of the fact that many people are PRONE to Depression; they are biologically geared for it. See it this way: A normal person might need 100 units of negative stimulus to get depressed and commit suicide BUT A genetically/biologically prone person might just need 10-30 units! So, in latter case, you really can't blame the external environment/surroundings(persons in it). The argument would be: "How would they have known or have any idea?" I agree with almost all what you've said and I follow that in my life, but concluding the cause or blame of Vemula's death to this standalone incident or his experience in university, might be erroneous, and one should tread with caution and care, in doing that; unlike Guha.