Board Game Business Podcast - Top 10 New Designer Mistakes

[@MultiZelda13]

"Nobody wants to play that game about ant farms" are you kidding??? That's an incredible premise for a game!! There's so much potential there.

[@Redskies453]

You could fire ants burning down grass to open up the playing area, flying ants can farm resource islands inaccessible to the other ants, you can play full communist style and just breed hordes of worker ants. Fuggit. Im making an ant game.

[@cerridwendragonart8167]

@@Redskies453 Sieze the Means of Ant Reproduction comrade

[@Noadvantage246]

@@Redskies453 lol how's that ant game coming?

[@randomgunguy5821]

@@Redskies453 yeah how's it coming along

[@Redskies453]

@@randomgunguy5821 haha it's not. There are apparently a number of ant games that are quite well executed out there if you're interested.

[@commandercorner5575]

Some incredibly successful and amazing games would never have been made if they followed this list.

[@ShuffleUpandDeal32]

lol

[@gizel4376]

"And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules"

[@vegastar558]

"Nobody wants to play a game about ants" - nobody cares a bout birds either, and yet Wingspan apparently sold well for a board game. Personally, I love games with strange premises. Beats the monotony of playing medieval fantasy games.

[@Mindlessallen]

Yeah I think saying " don't make a game for yourself" is bad advise . If you make what you love you will put your heart into in and that will bring others in.

[@VaultBoy13]

Yep, unless you're a publisher, you should be building the game with the theme that you're passionate about. Being, yet another, ______ game seems like a much bigger issue than having a unique theme.

[@JohnTheBlacksmithUSA]

Certainly, but I think the advice here is more about making sure the game is still interesting to others. It's not just about having a unique theme. If I am a huge fan of steam trains and make a steam train game, it can be interesting. But if I build something that caters only to people that know the difference between the Edsin 105 engine compartment and the Herkimer 107 model, then it probably won't have a lot of appeal. With the ants idea, you could probably make a really neat game about an ant farm- worker ants doing tasks for the queen, etc. But if you try and make it 100% accurate to real ants with all the things a layman doesn't care about, then it's not going to be fun for others.

[@neoupdate__014]

@@Mindlessallen he meant not to get too nerdy with that Like making a game about the process that goes in the moment of the rain happening with all the scientific terms and weird mechanics that are rather confusing that interesting

[@Wipsnipidy]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I would not take this advice. Most stand out games these days have an odd premise that makes them stand out from all the clones out there... Plus, create what you'd enjoy! Why put all that work and effort into something you're not in love with

[@Ruperdepuup]

Making a complex game is not a mistake. It's a choice. These guys want to reach the mass market, but some designers make different choices.

[@aquarius5719]

Rebellion is complex. Battletech is complex. Both are excellent. A time of war is an excessively crunchy RPG that even DnD players deem as too crunchy. Mechanics get in the way of fun.

[@danielskrivan6921]

Some of these are not whether or not you're making a good game, but a marketable one. A complex game that takes 2-3 hours isn't bad, it's just not going to make you a ton of money.

[@chuckolator1859]

They did say it was from a publisher's point of view. The one who is responsible for handling the game's distribution and sales.

[@Berndr]

strange I am so bored of games that have no depth and complexity ... yet these simple games just as you say seem to be the most popular!

[@ionas82]

1. mechanics enforce alpha gamery 2. no interesting decisions / boring game play 3. no immersion by mechanics / slapped on theme 4. down time / no interaction / no participation while the others play 5. single player engine optimization faked as multi player 6. point salat analysis paralysis 7. issues with flow of game 8. too many rules that don't add much to the game 9. bad rules as written 10. too streamlined and dumbed down (don’t confuse with elegant like hanabi or love letter) ^ my list. Have fun.

[@SolenaGames]

hi! For all board game designers out there, I made a little tool to speed up card generation/updates for my own board game prototype (Danger Race) and it's now available for everyone, check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZ6WY5aaaNeMpac Cheers!

[@lelaharkrader7734]

some time stamps: 0:46 #10 NO APPLES TO APPLES OR CARDS AGAINST HUMANITY 1:39 #9 NO MASS APPEAL 2:48 #5 TAKES TO LONG TO PLAY (go back for more context) 2:56 #8 LACKS REPLAYABIITY 4:28 #6 ONLY ONE STRATEGY 5:16 #7 TOO MANY COMPONENTS 7:04 #4 TOO COMPLEX 10:43 #3 ITS NOT FUN 12:42 #2 CHOICES ARENT INTERESTING 13:56 #1 ITS NOT UNIQUE please like this it took a long time I hope its helpful and have a great day you are amazing!

[@wasserpophim5935]

Thx

[@steelman774]

Thank you! 😎👍

[@1stepcloser2god75]

Perfect

[@purplejersey5556]

You are right that the largest games market by far is the casual games segment. However, it's also true that the casual game market has the most competition, so it's very difficult to capture significant market share. As a result, targeting your games at this market will not guarantee success any more than producing "designer games" for the more niche hard core gamer market.

[@godlaydying]

I'd rather play a game about an ant colony than one about an executive about to be fired.

[@hariman7727]

I can see multiple takes too. Either competing ant colonies, or a single colony with different types of workers/warriors/queens/etc working together against random obstacles and such.

[@Noadvantage246]

To each their own I guess, to me the exec game trying to build a huge golden parachute sounds fun and humorous

[@chuckolator1859]

I think the executive one sounds really funny, and I think if presented well it could definitely have mass appeal. It's something that anyone would immediately understand and be willing to poke fun at.

[@Noadvantage246]

@@chuckolator1859 Exactly, imo the big evergreen games isn't about having just a good game it's about a concept everyone can easily understand and joke about. Just like Monopoly, Monopoly is a below avg game when you're talking about raw gameplay and mechanics. But it's fun bc the concept is everyone is a shady business man trying to own everything while screwing over the other players.

[@davidsheppard6578]

Sad confession time. Found this video via TGC news feed and watched. Heard reference to Too Big to Fail. Yeah, I was the guy who made the deck-builder about raiding failing businesses and cashing out as soon as possible. At a Protospiel about 2-3 years ago. That was literally the third test on it and I was searching for feedback on how to reduce this time and I recently picked it back up and have it down to about 45 minutes with 2 players. So sad that my first mention on a Dice Tower podcast was actually making a huge mistake. My biggest problem in designs is starting long then culling things down.

[@davidsheppard6578]

Should also probably mention I go to Protospiels with games I think have problems, otherwise I don't get the pleasure of drinking with a few designer friends trying to redeem my mistakes...

[@snugglyjeff214]

I don't think it is a big mistake to start long and optimize things as you go. That is just a normal process. Now trying to minimize that playing against yourself on a table set for 3-4 people first can help you along before you torture other people with your game lol.

[@chuckolator1859]

That's alright man, the fact that you're in the trenches working on stuff is really great. Keep doing what you love!

[@luckyrlv]

At least you got a mention! That means you are at least taking action. Something 99% of people will never do. So be proud of yourself. I too made a game, that many people actually love playing, I just need to figure out the marketing aspect, but one day I will. PS it’s Laughcronyms :) How’s that for marketing?

[@justanotherdayinthelife9841]

Thats nit a problem its a method. I respect that method.

[@AppleCore360]

I want to play that ant game :P It has potential!

[@Gutock]

+AppleCore360 ... I am dead serious, I would take another look at the ant farm game :)

[@thelonebricker662]

+AppleCore360 I was actually thinking the same thing!

[@joaocamilo8106]

+AppleCore360 Iup, it would be fANTastic!

[@SilverSurfer-cc6vp]

+AppleCore360 Could be interesting for sure. Ants vs the ant eater lol

[@obsidiazen5532]

ant farm simulator co-op sounds pretty cool actually.

[@LeeroyPorkins]

1. It has to have an app 2. It is a legacy game 3. It is a roll and write 4. Kickstarter "Exclusives" 5. Blind Collecting 6. Too many components (Making it hard to store, set up, tear down, travel with) 7. VOTING FOR TURN ORDER/LAWS IN A SPACE GAME! 8. Games that punish you for ANY decision you make 9. Missprinted components (Terraforming Mars)

[@ComplacentBadger]

"Cards and dice, the classic mistake." Man, someone better tell Imperial Assault, Dead of Winter and Eldritch Horror they screwed up.

[@ionas82]

+ComplacentBadger Cards and dice are actually a good combo

[@KabukiKid]

+ComplacentBadger Keep in mind that he established that he also just doesn't like dice in games. O_o

[@Patronux]

+ComplacentBadger You are missing the point. He is referring to cards AS randomizers, not just as components.; the same with dice. Imagine playing Munchkin with dice. That's a mistake.

[@danielniffenegger7698]

Also remember that they're giving GENERAL rules; just like rules of grammar can be bent or twisted from time to time. The important thing is to learn the rules before you try to twist them.

[@Arieltheonly]

Settlers of catan has a dice and cards lol and its a great game

[@purplejersey5556]

I think this was an interesting video, and I appreciated the insight into the panelist's views, but in the end I think it just reflects one business strategy, rather than universal truths about the business.

[@mikecranapple8878]

A 2-3 hour game is EXACTLY how much time I want to spend playing with a friend or friends!

[@danielniffenegger7698]

He never introduced his second guest beyond name and never gave him a chance to present his list. I would have asked for their lists in advance, compared them, and combined/consolidated where possible.

[@kas9402]

I disagree about point #2... if you have a great ant-themed game (or whatever) which has a very detailed and accurate theme, I love that! I love that it exists! I mean, obviously it should also be fun but the theme won't prevent that. More importantly, people who also love ants will be overjoyed that out of the sea of boring clones of popular theme shit, there's something for them. Why would you discourage people from producing something original? If they're making it because they want that game but it doesn't exist, why doesn't it exist? Because of attitudes like this, like, "you won't make gobs of money unless it's fantasy-themed or something!" I mean, maybe making gobs of money isn't their game design goal...

[@zenoglobal99]

"I mean, maybe making gobs of money isn't their game design goal..." that may often be the case, but the goal for this video is in the description. These points are from a game publisher's point of view - not a game players perspective and least of all from hardcore gamer's POV. Publishers are mainly interested in a breakout game for the masses. Fast and simple.

[@stevenzheng5459]

Ant colony game sounds like an interesting idea!

[@purplejersey5556]

If gameplay length is a hard and fast rule, then none of the war game publishers should be in business! I think you should have clarified that the game needs to be short if you are aiming for a mass market. Not every game is aimed at that market.

[@sg219]

You should take your advice and apply it to the podcast.

[@CrimeaRiver]

lol

[@jrjm8582]

Mike no.. if your talking about the length of the video, a 30 minute podcast would be considered short.

[@glencannondr]

keywords "from a publisher's point of view".

[@samdayak427]

So your admitting that they're list is a little off?

[@Charley-ju6yg]

Some long time games are fun to play tho. Like D&D which can sometimes take days to get through depending on the story. Multiple of these doesn’t apply to some big time games.

[@lifelonghalo]

If you think 2-3 hours is crummy mass appeal, that eliminates like 15 of the top 20 games on BGG

[@BEN_COSMO]

You are so wright, because monopoly on, one of the most played and most known games takes about 1-5 hours.

[@marcbelisle5685]

If you're creating a game and you want it to have staying power, no matter what you want to do with it, you should just keep two things in mind: The mechanics should take minutes to learn. Strategy should take a lifetime to master.

[@st0ox]

DON'T care about mass appeal when making a game. History has shown that very unpopular game genres became very successful without a publisher would have ever put their money on it...just find 1000 people who would support your crowd funding campaign and you will be good. #9 in this top list was definitely the lamest advice from a publisher perspective I ever witnessed. I support all other advices made in this video.

[@witekbiczyk9471]

10:06 "The big, long 2 hour game".

[@regexRex]

You guys have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I would play the ants game if it had good mechanics. Agricola has you as a medieval farmer, HOW BORING. Except it isn't and Agricola is a great game. Mechanics > theme.

[@AdamWarner]

Its like they haven't noticed that the majority of table top games out there have obscure themes. It is one of the best things about the industry! Also if you design a game with a theme that interests you you can be sure that other people out there will also find it interesting. You are tapping a niche.

[@danielskrivan6921]

@@AdamWarner I think he explained it badly. I think what he meant is if you have a game that goes really deep into the details of something, that nobody outside of that field of interest would care about. Like if I were to make a football game, where the offense and defense each select a play, that play has a rock-paper-scissors format giving one team the advantage, and then both players roll dice to see whether the offense is successful, that could be fun. But if I make a football game, where the offense has to pick how each lineman is going to block, what route each receiver is going to run, and then you roll the dice for every block to see if the QB is sacked and for every route to see if the WR is open, it's going to get tedious. So it is a game mechanics issue, but the problem is that you dedicate too much to the theme.

[@zenoglobal99]

If they were talking about what makes a great game for hardcore gamers, I would agree with you. But the video description says these points are from a publishers point a view - not yours or mine. They don't want complexity - they want simple, fast games for mass market appeal because they know a minor breakout game will sell more copies than a hit game in the gamer market.

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

Maybe I'll make a boardgame for you; call it Major Butthurt Nerd. Object is to be the saltiest, most butthurt of them all.

[@codyharrison8612]

Ants ants ants

[@MagnifiqueRarity]

Great video. Wrote down all the mistakes in order to avoid them myself!

[@WurstVader]

Very interesting discussion. Now me and a friend of mine are just in developement of a cardgame. It seems to us and our few testers so far that we did not do any of the mentioned mistakes. What now? Open up a kickstarter, offer our game to a publisher? How do you get your game out there, carve your name into history and live the dream? This is our first foray into this topic and we don't know where this will take us, yet.

[@DoctorOzelot]

So does the ant game have piles of chickens , hats and a boat strategy? When does the kickstarter begin?

[@TylerAndToast]

Nothing wrong with long games at all! Sad long as they're good. Just means your having fun longer

[@Berndr]

My group loves long games, the major complaint is that games end too soon before they had a chance to develop and immerse into it ...

[@steelman774]

who are these guys? I feel like, through comments in the conversation, that these guys are currently working in the board game industry. It would be helpful if they said what they did at the intro when they introduced themselves to give more credibility to their input. Thanks!

[@aquarius5719]

Dice or any randomization technique serves 2 purposes: * Destroy determinism. If you drive a car and you want to turn left, you probably will be able to turn left, determinism. But if you are in a fight and you plan to hit an enemy, what you want is not always what you achieve. Randomness intervenes. * Automation. If you design a strategy game, probably you may want to resolve the battles with randomizers to simulate you are not the fighters, you cannot control the outcome, because you just make plans. So random mechanisms become a simulator that delivers annautomated outcome.

[@barax9462]

Question 1# I wanted to know how to achieve the effect in which a board game player goes like "hmmmm Which move should i take" i mean is it based on: 1- how many players on the field? 2- abilities and power-ups? 3- level design/ map/ maze? 4- Rules ? 5- how the randomization works? Question 2# and does the design differs if the game is physical or digital?

[@brad1840]

big long 2hr game... im sorry but our games usually go for atleast 3.5hrs?

[@RatingsMan]

I've got a question... how do you go about getting a game published? I have several games finished (except the art could be improved) but I have no idea how to go about it any further than just playing them with my close friends/family. Hope someone can help.

[@TomSzczypior]

Hi. You submit your design to a publisher(s) and hope they like it. Or you start campaign on Kickstarter and try to gather money to self-publish.

[@thelonebricker662]

I have a game idea that I have been working on a bit and this list was really great to listen to right now!

[@Dickie1701]

Hopefully the next episode is even more useful.

[@bigtopofun]

Guy in the middle is the typical guy you don’t want to play with.

[@dago6410]

What exactlly is the boat strategy?

[@jamesa.fitzpatrick1566]

I'm a first time designer and I have to say that I'm happy that I met the criteria set here. I did it through talking to other gamers and designers, who said many of the things you said. I enjoy these videos!

[@stevensilvers3852]

My list: 1: candyland clone

[@Noadvantage246]

As a kid I used to love candy land but thinking back it wasn't great

[@aquarius5719]

The problem of randomizers is not randomization. It is about low probability to win and pack of control of player over the outcome. For example if you need to roll a 12 with 2D6, probability is almost 3% which is already low. But if you have to make 5 hits to the boss to defeat it, it will be impossible or will take hours to defeat.

[@jeremiahv3355]

the ant farm thing he said was actually a great idea lol that wasnt a good example

[@70PercentGuessRewaaard]

The boat strategy huh? Is he talking about A Feast for Odin or Castles of Burgundy?

[@ricardorix73]

'not too many components' they said with Mysterium in the background. Don't make 'Terra Mystica' - currently #8 in BGG. What you mean by 'too complex' should have been - don't add complexity that don't add anything to the gameplay. Learn to think on other players turn.

[@BobFrichtel]

The complaint of randomness is kinda weird. Cards might be used for items, inventory, actions. Dice for effects, movement, opportunity. Chip board for tokens, markers, tags. Makes sense you'd see all three of these within a board game, and often in correlation. What an absurd worry.

[@board-qu9iu]

Is a board game about Toys declaring war on each other so their faction can beat out other factions and be the "ruler" of their area (Stores, homes, cars, yard sale, etc.) a good idea? (It's a combination of "deck building" and axis and allies, and will be a video game board game since it will be way too complicated.)

[@LeagueoftheDutch]

This was really helpful for my game! I was going to do the combat dice based. But then someone said he doesn't like dice for combat and then I remembered a couple of games where I did not like it. So I am probably going to change that! Thanks!

[@the_RCB_films]

where can i order some custom shaped tiles???

[@eurekat]

Never played a game with less than 10 min of rules explanation.... :)

[@SilverSurfer-cc6vp]

+eurekat "my games need to be explained in 5 mins" Why? Do you have a bus to catch or just suffer from chronic ADD?

[@eurekat]

+Silver Surfer 2142 ?????

[@SilverSurfer-cc6vp]

eurekat Just mentioning how one of the designers was talking about how a game has to be explained in 5 minutes All well. That failed.

[@Patronux]

+eurekat I don't believe you :). Or maybe you are underestimating how long 10 minutes actally are. Have you not played Ticket to Ride, Forbidden Desert/Island, Dominion, Carcassonne, Coup, 7 Wonders? All of those games can be taught in between 5 and 10 minutes, some even less than that.

[@eurekat]

+Patronux yes i did, but you know... chit chatting, commenting the rules, where the author copied from, how I would have done differently taking and espresso, complaining about politics and women...10 minutes go very fast :)

[@Koolkole27]

I am designing a game that’s got the hex tile mechanics that are like in settlers of catan. Is that a bad idea. Is it too saturated of a game style?

[@niefali]

I am currently exploring some game ideas, so this is useful.

[@Hgkbukk]

This is both informative and hillarious, I enjoyed every minute of this!

[@finnfinity9711]

An idea to fix nunber 8 could be adding customization in board games, for example that the player is able to change the map, replace certaint fields etc.

[@JumboFe1337]

im making my own games atm Im using table top sim to get it made for testing I've done a few test runs and had a rework the game a few times already

[@pushpendersinghparihar753]

Hey friends .i have one doubt Can we repaint game and character of game and publish it in other language with same mechanism . Is there any copyright issue for that from designer or developer of that game?

[@Charley-ju6yg]

I mean, you’re quite literally earning money off of their game. It’s about the same as taking a song and just add a different video and singer. It’s fresh and different from the original in terms of design, but you’re still just taking a product.

[@jboubel]

How hard is it to get a license for known product. What is the average price to lease the name?? Could you let me know so I can have a idea

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

+jboubel A license holder will almost always charge a percentage of the sales of each game and that percentage will change dramatically depending on how valuable/big/known the license is. It could be 1% if almost no one has ever heard of the license or it could be 20% or more for something like Star Wars. So it's a huge range.

[@anzaeria]

You reckon a game about ants wouldn't have wide appeal? What about Mariposas - the game about Monarch butterflies?

[@aquarius5719]

Book keeping is about effort vs effect. For example if you make a game about spaceship workers, where you have 100 workers you need to assign, there are ways to allocate them. * Keep track of each worker to see if they are hungry or tired and need to go to sleep. So that is 100 trackers. * Have 66 workers available as they sleep 8 of 24 hours so you have 1/3 of people sleeping. Instead of individual tracking you treat the game statistically to simplify individual behaviors So imagine you want to overtime them to 12 hours, that will produce fatigue that willl cost you productivity or medical treatment in the future. So you put a cost with a timer, instead of monitoring individual worker's health. So you summarized 100 trackers and turned it into a table or a simplified set of rules. Is it fun to track 100 players one by one? It will take you forever to model a single day unless something fun happens to each worker that is worth 100 trackers. is worker tracker fun at all or do we get rid of the table too as tracking sleep and hunger is not fun at all? If you have workers moving inside a ship and it is attacked you probably want to see how many are wounded. So you need to make your own simulation about traffic in a certain area of the ship so you have a simple table of how many people are there at a certain time. That way you do not move each worker individually across the ship... Unless it is fun to move them one by one.

[@aquarius5719]

I wanted to be part of the Masters of the Universe kickstarter because I like She-Ra. But there was a problem and I was unable to become a backer at the time. As the game was released I saw that it was a non thematic generic tactical game with lots of card bureaucracy.

[@paulstaker8861]

@ DICE TOWER question on the carcassone part: carcassone is many people's gateway boardgame, that means designing a game similar to that could be a good strategy to entice beginner gamers who are looking for something after moving on from carcassone, but is familiar enough to not scare them away. (like Isle of Skye, great game) am I in the right in this? Edit: okay I entirely missed out on that "feels like this and that" part. Yeah when you make a game it shouldn't feel like you're playing something else you've already played.

[@snugglyjeff214]

It is ok to be heavily inspired, and in some respects the players may feel like they played the game before. The trick is masking it with enough changes where you hopefully improve on where the previous game failed, and blend mechanics from other games. One thing you can do is if your favorite game is a square tile game, rework it with hex tiles. Does it use dice? Maybe use a spinner there instead, or change how many sides the dice have. Lots of ways you can get creative and if you don't tell anyone what your game is inspired by, they might never even make the connection.

[@snugglyjeff214]

You can actually include multiple random mechanics in to a board game, and the game will be better for including them...but it has to be done in such a way where the player still has control. For instance, you can roll dice, but the number rolled still provides a multiple player choice on that action, and progressing every turn doesn't depend on getting a certain dice roll EVERY time. Same goes with cards. There are some games where you place tokens on a particular hex area based on the card you draw, but the card is a general area like woods/river/mountains/etc. so you can place your token on many different places on the board as long as they are one of those terrains you drew from the pile. You can actually design a game clever enough to contain 3/4 random mechanics at the same time, as long as you are still giving the player ultimately the choice on how his turn plays out. It needs to stay controlled enough so that the player plays the game, and not so helplessly random that the game plays the players.

[@wheelskis]

Just came back to this where I left off at 2:00 where they were finishing comments on an Ant game not having mass appeal. Just purchased Genotype, which has a whole other book giving information about Mendel and how this presents itself in a game. Additionally, Wingspan, a game about birds, was one of the highest selling games two years ago. I just finished typing this and realized the first comments are all saying essentially the same thing. I see his point, but I think he picked a horrible example. Also, unique, quirky themes may resonate strongly with players. Totally agree with Vega Star about breaking away from medieval, fantasy, space games... Good god. 2023 top selling game will be a medieval fantasy game set in space.

[@johnmiller2689]

Sooo... are you guys saying that game designers should make games with few pieces, one randomizer, simple rules, and fast play. So I think a game like Cooties or Trouble?

[@marcusrodgers4245]

curious on what about replay ability but takes 3 hours but is really fun?

[@rile6444]

Is there a german translation of this video available?

[@JLX5]

Watching this in 2019 and seeing that these guys have absolutely no idea regarding price of the game, component quantity, duration of the game and complexity. Look at Kickstarter and games go above $90 and tons of components, Lacerda games heavy Euros with lots of components and long making more than $600k.

[@z-beeblebrox]

Except 90% of the time Kickstarter games are only acquired by the backers (indeed, often they're only *meant* to be acquired by the backers). They almost never reach a publisher, and in fact Kickstarting a game is a fine way to sidestep the pitfalls of mass market publishing *because* your game is too niche, too long, too complicated, etc. And even then, if you're not hocking miniatures, adding some kind of obnoxiously extravagant gimmick, or shamelessly exploiting the latest internet memes, chances are your game will get ignored over there anyway. It's great that Kickstarter offers an alternative for those kind of games to flourish, but if you ever want to see your game on store shelves, that's frankly not the way to go.

[@eva01iastate]

*sigh* short games short games. While fun ultimately not fulfilling and not challenging. While you may sell more games you are definitely more Katie Perry than Led Zeppelin. Give me my Splotter, 18XX, and Phil Eklund because at the end of the day they did something interesting.

[@zenoglobal99]

I agree with your comment in general, but I think the analogy is more Katie Perry than Tom Waits. Zeppelin also enjoyed huge mass market success. Logistics indicate a minor to moderate success in the mass market is way more sales than a big hit in the hardcore gamer market. The audience is thousands of times bigger. But to your point - a break out game won't have the substance real gamers desire. And they did say these points are from a publishers point of view - not a game player's POV.

[@merccc1]

I think a few of the points were a bit poor, but the majority were fairly solid. The theme thing for example is very debatable, and can vary usually on a case by case basis. The multiple types of randomness is also a bit debatable, there are plenty of good situations for stuff like that. It is though very dependent on how it is done, and it CAN make it a little more clean/streamlined to keep it minimal though. Some people really like having luck play a major factor as well, it really just depends.

[@jean-francoissoucy8340]

I'm working on an idea so that was fun to listen to.

[@chuckolator1859]

I really liked it guys, really straightforward!

[@theplanetruth]

3:50- what was the game?

[@ShuffleUpandDeal32]

Now that sounds like a mistake that should have been on your list, not getting licensing in order before launching a project.

[@admiralcasperr]

10:43 many successful games have 700 page rulebooks. Why is that?

[@cluelesswanderer]

I feel like starting off with “don’t make this type of game” isn’t great. A theme or type of game isn’t a design mistake, you can make a game about anything. While you do bring up some good points, I feel as though the video is less about “classic design mistakes” and more about how to make a game that will appeal to the largest audience. Like “the game is too long” is not necessarily a design flaw if that’s the type of game you’re trying to make or the audience you’re designing for.

[@danielskrivan6921]

Regarding the Megaman game - it sounds like FireFly - The Board Game. Billed as 1.5-2 hours, I've never had a game take under 5. The expected time limit was basically if all your decisions were made when it was your turn, if you started your turn while the previous player was finishing theirs, and if it was only 2 people. And that was only if you played optimally.

[@noobstrodamus8881]

Top 10 mistakes bad designers and bad youtubers make: 1. This video

[@DreDredel3]

What about D&D? The game appears too complex with all the rules but it happens to have a market for it. I'm surprised Fun was not the #1 factor.

[@jamesedward3619]

Wingspan just took a major dump all over #9.

[@eduwoodentoys]

Really Fantastic to see the new design Games,We are Board Game Manufacture,Good at produce printed nice box,board,rules,brochures,wooden pawns,dice...

[@WarjoyHeir]

Really good video. I don't know what these negative comments are about. All of these rules seem to guide a game towards a unique and interesting experience. The part about it being easy to explain and not too complex is somethibg you don't have to strictly follow but it's a must to keep in mind. Always go for something that you could explain to everyone rather than to a long time gamer. Strategy shouldn't come from the amount of components but more so from what you can do with what little you have. If I were to add a rule I'd say: Keep design clarity. Make it easy to read everything the game has to tell you, that way it isn't a chore.

[@godlaydying]

Re #10: Wouldn't the people who made 'Cards Against Humanity' have been advised not to make 'another Apples to Apples clone'?

[@z-beeblebrox]

lol, well they were the first Apples to Apples clone, so nobody thought to warn them :P

[@Noadvantage246]

They were the exception bc they essentially rebranded a old game that ppl were familiar with but not really played with an adult modern twist. Now that it's been done it can't be re done.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

I'll never understand why people care so much for the playtime. I'm on the oposite side of that. I don't get invested in any game that lasts less then 2 hours. Most of my games usually go for around 4-6 hours hehe

[@WorldAquariumSingapore]

nice video with good contents there thks i am just about to try make my own boardg

[@highergroundgaming7202]

Why does 'mathy' have to be bad? It can be made fun if presented in the right way with a good theme. :-) Great video on the whole!

[@davidjackson9426]

I wonder what the theme of Bruno Cathala’s Micropolis is? ANTS

[@joanbantajordan]

I love boardgames! Did you know Lagim card game? I found it at Kickstarter and it captured my interest. It is a card game battle against monsters and other players. Plus, the art and quality of the game set (based on Filipino folklore) are impressive. I think you’d love it. :)

[@KabukiKid]

Jeremy hates dice? That's like hating FUN! ;-)

[@johntan4997]

It could be RNG not smiling upon him. Lower Lucky Stat?

[@toxic_shr00m]

*Gets random crit* "I got a kill, that guy sucks, get owned idiot."

[@haydengibbons5000]

Excuse me while I go make a board game about an ant farm, thanks for the idea!

[@TheDruusk]

too long...too many components...too complex...#1 BGG Gloomhaven says hi

[@Fantasy2012dz]

but what if i try to creat a game with all those aspect - a good strategy game with a lot of fun ? it could never be satisfactory for every player

[@FTWcrashtest]

Imagine them playing DnD

[@royhitchcock9714]

Yeah, if long games were an issue we wouldn’t see board game bars. More than 10 minutes to explain the rules? What the hell?

[@imthegamer467]

I hope as a young designer that I will always value more my craft than the promise money of the publisher that wan to fastfood it to the big market. Complexe and long game are the future. HardGamer you are not alone, give me your money and i will create you world to explore

[@cadenlaptad3247]

Interesting list to listen to. Love these videos you guys put up! Personally, the only point I disagree with #9, as I find that unique themes provide a unique gaming space, and these themes can help produce some of my favorite games (such as Myrmes which is a game about developing an ant colony). Furthermore, game length doesn't deter me, honestly. It may make me less able to purchase the game, but not to play it. I also think #4 could be better stated as "not streamlined enough", because there are many "heavy/complex" games which flow well, are streamlined fairly well, and are incredibly enjoyable to play (games like Kanban, Vinhos, etc). This can kinda flow over into #3 as well, where different people find fun in different places. To be honest, every game is a veiled optimization puzzle (which is great for a mathematician like myself - it explains why I love games), but some games disguise these intricate decisions and mathematical calculations more than others. :)

[@roundtuit2587]

+Caden Laptad I don't disagree, but let me try to throw out some different nuances and perspectives. Re: #9. I don't think the point of "no mass appeal" was "no unique themes". Specifically, the example they used (good or bad) of "Ant Farms" would be a relatively rare hobby with an even smaller group of ant farm enthusiasts who are also board gamers. If the game is pitched as "This is a fun game that happens to be about ant farms" and the focus is on how fun the game is, then I could see it doing well. But if the game is pitched as "This is a game about the intricacies of ant farms." and the focus is on how cool ant farms are... only people who are specifically attracted to the theme are likely to be interested. To everyone else, it could seem very dry and boring. Other iffy games ideas include, "Knife Sharpener Simulator: Can You Cut It?", "Interior Decorator: Martha Stewart Edition", "Photography: Development Chemicals and Processes". If the theme is the focus of what makes the game "cool"... it had better be a theme with a wide enough appeal to warrant the time and effort of a publisher. That being said, but I can imagine those themes making potentially interesting games, but they'd have to be spun right. And not to sound pedantic, but there's a difference between a game about "ant farms" (the hobby) and "ant colonies" like used in Myrmes and other games. Re: #5. I don't mind long games either, but I think "takes too long to play" is relative to the type and weight of game at hand. If someone says, "This expansive interplanetary trading game takes 6 hours to play", then cool. That makes sense. But if someone pitched Roll For It to me and said "it takes 6 hours to play", then their game is broken. Re: #4 & #3. I've got nothing to add. :D

[@cadenlaptad3247]

+Round Tuit Thank you ever so kindly for your perspective! I certainly had not considered some of the nuances you mentioned and can better understand the points presented in the video and how to more charitably interpret them. :) I guess my main point on #9 is that I personally think theme is like the icing on the cake - if you like the cake (mechanisms), then the icing (theme) only makes it better. To me, theme enhances the overall experience, but mechanisms are what make a game interesting and exciting. :) So, yes, I would play a game about collecting ant farms if the mechanisms of the game were interesting or innovative. :)

[@trojan403]

"always go the boat strategy" needs to be on a -shirt

[@kau6912]

Some really good tips

[@neonwingz]

Can’t agree with number 9, you don’t try and experiment, you don’t know if it’ll work. Monopoly wasn’t immediately liked when originally proposed either.

[@thegamingpharaoh6996]

i made a game and passed everything on this list except 1 lol. my game is practically checkers.

[@aaronbeedle941]

I wouldn't criticize their advise so readily unless you're experienced. Differing publsihers will have differing tastes, but a lot of what they say is helpful from a long term business perspecitve. Complicated games are having a really good era at the moment. I know a lot of people who binge buy games that have tonnes of components, lots of randomizers and long play times. Those games are making good money, but no one ever actually plays them. I bougth dead of winter. That games has done very well in terms of sales from what i can tell. But its pretty dull. Its quite autonomous, a lot of the time there is only one thing worth doing. Considering it takes a long ass time to setup and put away, and actually play, it just never gets played. Games I personally rank highly at the moment are small worlds, Evolution, and i'm enjoying sheriff of nottingham. Proof to me thatthere's no recipe for success here. Sheriff is a terrible game on paper, but plays really well. Small worlds is very balanced and strategic, but few people seem to enjoy it because its very docile and uneventful. Evolution is balanced and tense at times, but some people just aren't drawn inby its simplistic appearance. Anything goes. It's a great time for the industry, but I think its fair to say appearances count for too much lately, and people are buying games before trying them.