Crowdfunding Backers Aren't Entitled...There Are Just Less Reasons To Back

[@SkoobaNIK]

Expecting money from backers with 0 interest and no need to guarantee an actual product is spoiled/entitled.

[@BoardGameCo]

Exactly

[@successfulgeek]

Board Game creators are asking for a 0% interest loan with all the risk on those backers and no guarantee of the game delivering. There has to be some upside for those backers for it to make sense to give that money... especially since it will be cheaper at retail with cheaper or free shipping from retail... So not only are backers providing 0% interest but they are generally getting a worse deal than retail too...

[@BoardGameCo]

100%

[@JoeHuddleston]

Not just no guarantee of the game being delivered, but paying for it without even knowing whether it's any good.

[@EM-pn5kq]

Very well put. Idk how so few people see it this way

[@iansutton7416]

Absolutely. Backers (and indeed project creators) need to consider the whole deal, to decide whether it offers value. That includes risk (and yes Joe H, that does include risk that even if the game is delivered, does it deliver on what it promised). That quote from the publisher takes a one-eyed view, and perhaps it had an intentionally narrow focus, but if not, it would be a worrying attitude that could absolutely blindside them.

[@yoshienverde]

The main issue is that this (0% interest patronage without guarantee of product delivery) WAS the original intent of KS. The original idea was that you'd just give funding to somebody with an idea you thought deserved it, just so that it could reach and complete production. That way, you'd be able to then buy a product that wouldn't exist otherwise. Of course, KS has shifted waaaaaay too far from that by now. The general use for KS nowadays is "pre-order of a product with some extra goodies that you wouldn't get on retail". And so, producers have to give pledgers a compelling reason to put their money in their campaign. As a ROW backer, I usually end up paying 50% more than retail for my game copy, just because of shipping and import taxes, and I tend to get my copy of the game half a year after it's already available in retail. The LEAST I should expect is for my copy to bring something that won't be there in the retail version

[@siriactuallysara]

This is classic. 2020s When companies make worse products or content and it doesn’t sell they blame the fans. Toxic fandom is massive gaslighting to shame people.

[@BoardGameCo]

Ya, I'm never a fan of blaming people for your own product not working.

[@kitcarpo4745]

Or COVID. (He did.)

[@thelupishow]

Good Rant...we have been discussing a lot of these issues for the past few years. Thanks.

[@ToboldStoutfoot]

At the Spiel in Essen, Pandasaurus was selling The Fox Experiment for €60. I backed it for $60 plus $25 shipping, and the delivery to Kickstarter backers in Europe won’t be before 2024. I could have gotten that game cheaper and faster if I hadn’t backed it. :(

[@sq4you]

How much did it cost you to travel to Essen?

[@ToboldStoutfoot]

@@sq4you Not much, I live close. And I didn't go there for that game. I was just surprised and disappointed by it being on sale. Just another example why Kickstarter games are a bad deal, if backers don't even get them first.

[@kerim8666]

@@sq4you people don't go to Essen to buy a single game. Spiel is a huge fair with tons of demos, events... Such a low gotcha type of comment. Except you didn't, clown

[@ichhabe330]

That is a Draw Your Sword and Pistol-moment if you ask me. I would have gone crazy fuming nuts at their stall.

[@jordansmeenge]

I don’t get why these companies that are selling at the conventions before backers get their copies don’t just sent out a message about giving you a chance to get your backed copy there so they can plan for it? If you, as a publisher are able to rush a number of copies then they should give chance to have people pick their copies up if they are going to these conventions.

[@Spidoink]

Great video Alex. Give me a reason to over pay and let go of money for 2 years at 0% interest. Exclusives are the only reason I'd back. Then you add risk to the equation. You might never see your game or money again. I feel a LITTLE proud of myself this year. I've dialed back my crowd funding almost 80%. Its hard to avoid crowd funding when all your favorite content creators spend so much of their time covering them too.

[@brucebush5744]

Who’d have thought that questioning paying more than retail for a game of unknowable quality to be delivered late (if at all) was an example of consumer entitlement.

[@timf7354]

At 8:28 is when you said the real reason many have stopped buying is on crowd funding. You pay $90 + $15 shipping on a $100 MSRP game that you can buy for $75 from an online store. This is what's made me stop. It shows that crowd funding is really a pre-release online store for the creator of the game. They are making bigger profits on it there than selling to online retailers. I used to see crowd funding as a way to help the creator get a game produced and being rewarded with a good price because it's their passion project. Now, I see crowd funding as an online store for the creator where they make huge profits. So, what are the benefits for someone to back it now than buy it at retail? Very little for the backers. I'd say 90% of the exclusive content is broken and overpowered for the game. Or it's just fluff.

[@findle70]

I think someone needs to tell companies - if your primary business model is based on FOMO, you don't have a sustainable business model. People need to feel part of a community. I urge all the 'big KS game' companies look at what Van Ryder Games do with their community building via their discord - it genuinely feels like AJ is trying to make content and KS packs that the community wants, and keeps a very strong communication path with their fans of Final Girl. The marketing starts months ahead, and people feel part of it, because they are talked to as if the company actually cares and values them. There are companies that don't get what community and interaction can get them, and why that will drive a super solid base of backers.

[@BoardGameCo]

Completely agreed.

[@youvelookedbetter]

Not only that but Final Girl doesn't have many Kickstarter exclusives in the same way that other games do. Feels like they actually want everyone to be able to access the game, try it out, and enjoy it. Just look at their holiday version. They want everyone, including the general public, to be able to buy it before these upcoming holidays in Dec. 2023.

[@Achill2105]

best Kickstarter for me was ATO! I loved every Day of reading the Comments and the Creator was so amazing

[@garylangford6755]

"if your primary business model is based on FOMO, you don't have a sustainable business model" tell that to cmon

[@EarthenGames]

I feel like this sentiment is ubiquitous across every industry. That’s why grassroots efforts have a much more loyal and engaged and deeper fan base, even if it isn’t as “big” of a base as mainstream/ corporate products. Transparency and compassion go a long way

[@polfig7558]

A line should be drawn between large companies using crowdfunding and small companies and individuals. I think it is fair to expect something for my support from the large companies. The small ones - crowdfunding is there so they can do something that otherwise might not exist. It might not happen but the support is for them to have a shot...

[@CulBluVlogs]

Idk if Gamelyn Games counts as a "large company", but the speed that they've completed a Kickstarter, and then spun up another is kind of exhausting. Great to have so many games in the small box space, but ooof, can I have a bit more time with the ones that are out already? x_x

[@CheddahSlammer]

I don't know if a line needs to really exist between the two. Yes you have your big companies and small ones, but many small ones are their to do what the big ones are doing. Countless times have I seen a game do well and then next campaign is up, and somehow the game is twice or three times the price. On the other hand you have some genuine Big Companies that just want to sell a good product, at the expense of themselves, by offering some good deals.

[@GoodEggGuy]

"The small ones - crowdfunding is there so they can do something that otherwise might not exist." This. This is what crowdfunding is supposed to be about. Any company that's merely using it as a sales channel should stop. Let crowdfunding exist for creators who *need* crowdfunding.

[@beyondwordsgames]

From a very small publisher perspective -> Not sure where this comment come from: "average funds per submitted project" in Kickstarter are not on the level of pre-2015 but are still growing double digit (with some indication of stagnation thou), so it doesn't seem that backers are shrinking (quite the contrary: are spending each year more than the year before). Maybe the publisher who left that comment refer to "big" projects, but in this case the alleged "erratic" nature of the backer has a different origin than purchase intention imo... 50% of tabletop projects in KS raised less than 10K in 2021 and even if the backers are spending more money each year, this 50% seems to be a constant quota since several years. While these are the creators that bring the 50% of the ideas in the industry, they corresponds to 2% of the backers money! This is because the 50% of the total money funded via Kickstarter comes from the 2% of projects that raised 500K or more. This is a huge market volatility and I am not surprised that companies with higher funding standards register such a "random" behaviour from their backers... Obviously is not the backer fault (which again: are investing more money than ever), but rather the speculative nature of the crowdfunding scheme: funding expectations of established publishers are increasing with a higher speed than backers' demand is increasing... yet the major part of the ideas in this industry do not seem to require more money than in the past (again: most commont sum of raised funds is

[@andreasfischer3696]

As an EU backer with 19% VAT, high shipping costs and bad USD - EUR conversion rates these days, quite often it's cheaper to get the games from secondary market than backing them. Plus you don't have to bother with risks or delays.

[@ShaydeTV]

So let me get this straight... When you go to retail, by the 1/4 rule, the game designer would get 1/4 of the cost of the game. When they Kickstarter they get 3/4 of the cost of the game. How does this math not illustrate EVERYTHING why a kickstarter should offer more than retail. Not only that, but why they should sell directly like IV Studio does.

[@northwestendometriosisandp8522]

Where crowdfunding makes sense is to make a game that never would succeed in retail, but it really valued by the relatively small audience that would indeed buy it. Ie Oathsworn would not have been a success in retail I think, but it's a brilliant product.

[@Talnova]

if anything, isn’t it the opposite? that the developers are the privileged ones…. being able to get money for a product without actually giving anything for months or possibly even at all is a mostly new thing. Previously they would have to find a publisher to fund it before they could make it at all right? Unless I am missing something or forgetting something. Don’t get me wrong I love it, that I as a fan, can help support the types of games I want to play, and reasonable pricing makes it more likely a game will actually come out, but it’s just a bit weird to call backers spoiled for not wanting to risk their money for nothing. edited for clarity (changed spoiled to privileged)

[@BoardGameCo]

I wouldn't call them spoiled, but I agree and understand your point.

[@fy8798]

It's not a new thing at all, it's actually a centuries old practice. Art was often produced that way I would say that the only people spoiled here are big companies (CMON, Mythic). Smaller creators are not spoiled at all - quite the opposite, even with crowdfunding it's often a loss. Big ones though often can offload their planning failures on backers.

[@Talnova]

@@fy8798i knew someone would make this comment which is why I hedged mostly :p even though it’s true that most people will pay in advance for bespoke items, it is still relatively new for it to be this easy for a small developer to get funding from mass market consumers I think I don’t mean spoiled as strongly as you may though. I just mean privileged/lucky.

[@wyred]

Where was art crowdfunded? Normally you had a rich person asking an artist to do contract work or you had some who would keep an artist for their amusement. But do you want to guess what would happen to the artist if they just say "oops!, sorry, can't do what you want"?@@fy8798

[@lucky6666]

Yeah, but I don't feel like I'm. doing that... what I am doing is paying more for the same usually.

[@CulBluVlogs]

Haven't watched the video all the way through, but I'd like to actively state that while I adore the Gamely's "Tiny Epic" series, I'm 1000000% burnt out with them releasing a yearly Kickstarter with another game in the series. Like if they just released the games in retail, I'll buy it at my Friendly Local Game Store (FLGS) b/c I know the "Deluxe" edition of the game will be there 6 months after the Kickstarter fulfilment stage. As an additional note, Kickstarter campaigns primarily feed off of FOMO (fear of missing out), and I genuinely feel that we MUST have a much deeper heart-to-heart conversation about the psychological leavers that are being pulled to squeeze out that extra 40 bucks from the backer. Like the fact that someone can feel both buyer's remorse when they get the higher tier, but also still feel buyer's remorse because they didn't go just that one tier higher is quite the phenomena. Finally, I understand that my first statement of low enthusiasm for a Kickstarter b/c of a guarantee "get" of all the bells and whistles flies counter to my second statement of "FOMO made me buy it" levels of engagement. The fact that both exists in our current Kickstarter landscaper is more reason (in my opinion) to discuss the topic as it's the backers that can shift that "invisible hand of capitalism" that the Kickstarter projects are trying to work with. My currently standing solution proposal to both of the points I bought up = Less time between Kickstarters ending and the games showing up on backers tables. I know that's both risky and expensive for companies, but honestly, make good games, get tons of money #thatsCapitalismBaby

[@jaredschulz3141]

I have massively decreased my backing of crowdfunding and many of the reasons you explained well. I noticed that a much higher percentage of game I was getting from crowdfunding were not staying in my collection. I think part of this was that some needed a little extra development to clean up some rough edges, and some of them I wasn't as excited to play them a year later when they showed up. It also seems like the ones that are amazing generally end up getting an expansion or something and there will be another chance to get them. I also realized a lot of the special KS exclusive stuff that I was getting either wasn't getting played with or was not impactful to the game. Finally I realized I was more interested into diving deeper into games that I knew that I loved instead of constantly learning rules all the time, so I need to slow it down and consolidate in my collection some.

[@bryanwinston8820]

Spoiled isn’t the right word, but he is absolutely right. I’m not backing a crowdfunded game if there isn’t something in it for me? But I’m also not preordering a game if there isn’t something in it for me. Some expansion, a discount, extra content of some type, free shipping, SOMETHING! Why would I pay in advance with no incentive, especially from an unproven game producer?

[@BoardGameCo]

100%. Saying that you have to work for your interest free loan or calling backers spoiled...

[@markzsombor6059]

Great video. The only point that I would add is that the board game space has grown so much in the last 10-15 years that there are so many good games that can be bought right now and don't require the crowdfunding wait and uncertainty. For me I'm not doing the math about whether I'd prefer to buy something later at retail, its if theres something else already available at retail that I have interest in. Things currently at retail will have reviews I can use to make an informed purchase which lowers the chance of getting a dud game.

[@northwestendometriosisandp8522]

I love it now how Awaken Realms charges full price and gets you "stretch goals" that actually get released to retail, and inevitably will sell at 30-40% or more off MSPR at retail from Miniature Market not that far after release. I see Great Wall at almost 50% off on MM and all the stretch goals as well, so actually waiting to buy it later was not only cheaper but also you don' t paying shipping and they don't get your money ahead of time. And now CMON is putting their expansion exclusives in the expansion box so it's impossible to resell them, pretty much making them not valuable. I am even wondering if the KS exlclusives for the expansions to Marvel Zombies will be in the retail boxes, since the KS boxes don't appear to have any marks that indicate that they are any different than the retail version.

[@MarinaS341]

Not to mention the currency conversion at the time it funds

[@BoardGameCo]

Absolutely!

[@ProtestTheTi]

If you put money in a crowd funding you're not just a consumer but you're also in a way an investor. I have the risk of it not getting through, in europe you also have the chance to give things back for 2 weeks when you ordered it online. I need to wait 1-2 years until I receive a product and until then they already work with my money. So basically i have way more stakes in the product as a simple consumer. So of course people can ask for the rules (due diligence) and some sort of benefit to actually back. Also I should be incentivised for investing my money into their project. Not giving any incentives would definitely not wanting to back a game - the audacity of saying the people are spoiled.....

[@giannisc.5254]

An extremely interesting video Alex on a topic that should (as you do) be discussed every now and then. I agree with you and I have several examples about the various different things you touched upon. To start with let's talk about the "cheaper at retail" with my most recent example, that of The Final Girl Season 3. I backed that one and one of the stretch goals (which is a recurring one from previous campaigns) was that they offered an additional feature film (that's what they name their scenario packs) and depending on the total amount of funding the campaign reached the film would start to get discounted, until finally it becomes available for free to all backers. This happened for Season 2, but unfortunately we did not achieve it for Season 3. Having said that the final cost will be 5 USD for that particular scenario so still pretty good ! Well, maybe for the US but here's the thing. I live in Europe and shipping is going to cost 14 USD + 5 USD the game for a total of 19 USD. That's pre-VAT mind you and it's 24% for my country. Somewhere around 20-25 USD then (not sure if shipping is included in VAT calculation hence the margin). Anyway, the problem is that here every feature film sells for about 20 Euros or 21-23 USD. This scenario was supposed to be a big deal since if you backed you could get it heavily discounted but as you can see I might pass up on it and just buy it at retail. Moving on to example 2, let's talk about the "need you to make this happen" part. Recently, I backed the new Barrage maps/boards they had on Kickstarter. Their funding goal was 10 Euros or around 11 USD. Are you kidding me ? At least try to hide the fact that you want to game the Kickstarter algorithm to gain visibility ! This was not crowdfunding, it was just order on demand. Lastly, I want to briefly mention that Kickstarter exclusives (if I missed the campaign) will probably make me skip the retail release. As a matter of fact, it is exactly what happened with CMON's Massive Darkness 2. I didn't know about the campaign (nor the game for that matter) and after watching reviews I got excited ! That excitement soured when I discovered that I could only buy less than half the content in retail and I decided to pass up on it. I either want a complete experience or no experience at all. Promos etc I can live without, but an entire expansion and more than one too ??? At least offer the possibility to acquire them in a future crowdfunding campaign ! But no, you can't so it's a no from me too.

[@ainthe]

Alex, you missed the elephant in the room that is Mythic Games. While the number of KS that fail outright may be 2-3% as you noted; the size of the KS and the company behind it has an outsize impact on the crowdfunding environment as a whole. This also ties into your point of supporting the creator; once a company has shown it cannot deliver a product; the trust is irrevocably gone. How can you ever back another project for a company that failed to deliver even one project. Not to mention the dubious accounting that goes into creating multiple simultaneous projects; with the amount of funding issues currently with Darkest Dungeon, this will be a domino effect of failing KS from 6 Siege, HEL and Anastyr. If CMON ever fails to deliver a project, the KS funding for boardgames will never recover. It's less about whether a project is worth it after you been burned backing one or more failed projects.

[@Dwarfurious]

Saw Adventure Tactics on their recent expansion kickstarter; 100$ for second edition adventure tactics. Got it for 70 off miniature market free shipping and didnt have to wait a year

[@sputang]

It’s the risk/gamble that gets me. I’ve been burned too much by big companies that had a good track record up to a point. Between Mythic Games, Blacklist Games, and MERC, I’m out almost $1K. There definitely needs to be good incentive for me to gamble with my money again.

[@tonymammel3542]

I have backed a handful of kickstarters in the past, but will not be doing so again. Everything you have said is perfectly valid. There is very little reason to back things years in advance. The market is such that there is always something better/hotter coming along, so by the time you get something shipped, the novelty is completely worn off and ultimately i have regretted every one that i have backed. Missing parts and pieces, errata and errors galore, delays, extra shipping costs....and the most frustrating part...games that are not ready for release, or are so full of bloat that they are not even fun. I think there is an obligation to the developers/designers that the game be more fully designed before asking for money. This also shows us that they have actually spent some time upfront working the bugs out and thinking about their systems. Which should ultimately shorten the time between any campaign and it being delivered. Simply, its not a wise choice to back anything, its all downside for us.

[@Mike_James]

Reasons not to: 1. Risk. flat out risk. from it just being not what you expected to Mythic risk is inherently baked in. 2. No accountability in the space. when even backers simp for these companies until its beyond painfully obvious that things are going badly and even then are willing to give more money just to recieve another game that most likely going to sit on the shelf and collect dust like the hundreds of others its quite demoralizing and no fun to be a part of. its makes the risk less worth it. 3. price. things are just more expensive. as a result not only are some games not worth the asking price but corners are cut to attempt to mitigate the cost which doesnt always go well. 4. delivery estimates are lies. so many people will defend it too, its frustrating. its all marketing analytics and not close to accurate estimates. when no experience backers are more accurate than industry experts its not a case of "being really hard". its a case of selling as many copies as possible and dealing with the fallout later why claiming to "do your best to meet those deadlines". 5. campaigns just arent fun anymore. any questions or criticisms are immediately met with fans on a counter offensive. almost every campaign has some form of back and forth in the comments. what is supposed to be a supportive community is extremely toxic towards one another over things they should be united on. makes no sense. 6. bloat. so many campaigns are just filled with bloat that takes away from the experience and takes up space. it also increases the cost, increases development time, slows down delivery time, and isnt always clear what you are getting exactly. the 400 dollar all in to boost the "raised x dollars!" number is the end all be all. and finally, and this might be the biggest thing really, saturation. we all have so many games now we dont have time to play, lack room to store, and combined with the economy might have to try harder to justify financially. its much easier to grab a game at retail through an impulse buy. an impulse back can be canceled a week later when cooler heads prevail. crowdfunding has its place and will always be a factor. personally im finding that buying those games later on ebay or from a retailer is comparable in price, lack the insane wait time, removes most of the risk, and has far more coverage available. of course ill still back things because like the rest of this irresponsible community in search of the next big thing the hunt is king, ill just do a lot less than before.

[@healthygamingnetwork4980]

“Mythic risk.” The new term for the monetary gamble in crowdfunding.

[@Dragonnox]

Number 2 is on point. Unbelievable how many people will defend a company even when they behave atrociously.

[@Zorogundam19]

The last game that I backed was Keep the Heroes Out in October '21. I already received it and played it several times. I just haven't been backing actual games lately through crowdfunding, but I have been putting in $1 pledges so I can keep up on the game updates. I'm done with backing games even though I have a dozen or more open pledge managers through Backerkit open. Some games have been funded since the pandemic starting and I'm just over these long multi-year delays with not enough progress being made, ie. Stormsunder, Primal the Awakening.

[@bassmeo3937]

I went from spending (per year) ~€1-2k on crowdfunding and almost no retail to less than €100 on crowdfunding and ~€500 retail in the last 2 years.

[@CheddahSlammer]

This just convinced me to drop a game I backed. Specifically Beast which I was at 180$, but didn't fell like I was necessarily getting that much for that amount given. Don't get me wrong have the base game and its fantastic, but at this point don't need all the extra to still have fun with the original, in which I haven't even touched all the hunters or beasts yet.

[@mohnkern]

I’m so tired of Kickstarter exclusives and stretch goals. In particular playmats. They drive up costs (and prices) and all they do is take up Shelf space. Plus it drives me nuts when I have to keep another box just for the exclusives and stretch goals. I’ve just sold off 1/2 my game collection because they take up too much space for their play value. I now weigh shelf space vs play value when backing.

[@mohnkern]

Marvel United (on your video) is a prime example of space creep

[@BoardGameCo]

Ya, it's definitely a thing especially if they aren't being utilized....one of the reasons I condense everything.

[@kbell2660]

The one big box is also out of control. I asked on BGG hoe heavy Isofarion Guard was, and the creator told me around 40 pounds., that is a no-go for me.

[@mohnkern]

@@BoardGameCo I saw a video where someone was suggesting not buying expansions unless it’s a game you play a lot, or it’s compelling content. It made a lot of sense and I’m rethinking my backing and purchases (as look at the six boxes of Resident Evil that I might play 2-3 times at most)

[@mohnkern]

@@kbell2660 I was talking to someone today about the number of games that get delivered that are the size of a shipping palate

[@TheEpinema]

Another aspect that no one wants to talk about is maybe toning down production to suit the market. Things are more expensive, people have less disposible income, shipping is off-the-wall insane, but there are games that have no problem. A good example would be a system like Unmatched. It sounds savage but as gamers, profit margins and such things aren't really our concern (yes - I want good publishers to do well), but they set the price and we either agree to it by paying or we don't. It is up to them to set the proposition.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Their have been recent studies done that, even though things are more expensive, and that people have less disposable income, and shipping is off the wall insane, people are still opting to buy expensive products over things they need. This only incentivizes more expensive games to be offered as people are still buying them at those expensive prices. You can even look at recent games that just came out to see this, over 500,000 raised on all of them, yet you can possibly get them at retail later for half the cost.

[@TheEpinema]

@@CheddahSlammer, NZ shipping prices are insane. Like I think the new release of Cyclades was offered at 120 USD for shipping alone. They could do us a discount if we ordered 30+ units though... I guess each person has a limit and mine is a lot lower. Still in favour of more modestly produced games though, that maybe didn't take a cubic foot of space each lol

[@MerrillWhiteKalEl]

I have also started to back less for a variety of factors, like you, but I have to see the value. In addition I have chosen not to back many projects I was interested in and then later ended up getting them much cheaper on the secondary market. Crowdfunding is about engagement and if the creator does not want to engage or show value then they do not get my money.

[@pitilerthattasil4794]

I keep looking at one of the game next to u ,it had a global retail launch celebration …way before tons of backer see their game , despite being a year late ..

[@francopdx]

Thanks for sharing your perspective on this. I enjoy these opinion pieces. Especially since I'm still relatively new to purchasing board games (despite playing them for 20 years), and even more so to crowdfunding. I backed my first game about a year and a half ago, so this was after the economic shock of the pandemic had eased, and I certainly don't know what crowdfunding prices were like before covid. Anyway, one reason not to back games that has come to mind recently is along the lines of what you mentioned about not knowing what your gaming group will be like in a year from now. The thought that I had recently was about shelf space/game limit. Right now I have a loose limit of 50 games, which I'm sure may change over time, and right now I have 43 games, so it seems like I can still buy 7 games before hitting this limit. However, I have been counting that games that I currently have at home and can play, but there are another like 10 games expected to arrive over the next year, so despite being below my limit right now, I'm already over my limit in the future, so if I get any more games in the next year, then I'll be even further over my limit. Having too many games is certainly a privileged problem to have, but I would like to be able to play most of my games at least annually (and some of them monthly or every season) and not have any of them sitting untouched for years (except for a handful of special cases), so that's one reason this limit is in place. Shelf space is getting tight, too, and some items that I already backed are big box games. All that being said, I don't know yet how much this "game arrival lag time" vs "current game limit" will affect my purchasing in the coming months or year, but it has already given me pause - especially for crowdfunded games that are expected to reach retail. I do feel the fomo at times for sure, but I also like the idea of being able to see reviews of the final product. And what you said about whether a game will still seem interesting a year from now did resonate with me as well. Maybe a game seems super novel and unique today, but it could also be that a year from now I have already picked up a couple other games in retail that implement those standout mechanics. And I am big fan of supporting the creator. At least for smaller projects or new creators - as opposed to big companies on crowdfunding. Definitely plenty of food for thought in this video. Thanks again.

[@204017754]

My main reason for not backing is what you said about reviews. I only buy very few video games day one for the same reason. Also, some games I expect to get much better with expansions so I wait for a big box set. I mean, I only have so much time to play the games I already own anyway.

[@TheTabletopMisfits]

We don't charge for previews and we do give our opinion on kickstarters. Although there's a BIG asterisk due to the fact we never have a "final" copy.

[@bassmeo3937]

I don't think I really agree. Stonemaier games already mentioned in 2020 that prices on KS for core boxes where going at basically retail MSRP prices, so with high margins for the companies on Kickstarter. Then they started separating VAT for EU and increasing core box prices even more. So backers overpay and take on all the risk, it's the backers that lose their money if a company goes under, a company that got a free loan. And the fluctuating cost of materials is kind of moot as you can pre-buy your materials at the current price.

[@purplehound2420]

...unclear timelines, getting the Kickstarter after it is in stores, unclear shipping, etc are reasons not to back BUT I do back because I want to support the creator. For example, my gaming group has played the crap out of Salem 1692 and Tortuga 1667 so I happily backed Hollywood 1947 to support Facade Games because I more than got my moneys worth out of their other games. Yes, I could have waited but I wanted to help them get that game going and support them.

[@Vertrucio]

I want to see more projects launched for very reasonable rates, for the full retail cost to help get the game to market, and not these bloated kickstarters that are more likely to implode. And then there's the absolute scam of Mythic Games.

[@morgaknightgames]

Absolutely. I've been buying retail more often after several crowdfunding disappointments, and seeing retail versions much cheaper. It's not being spoiled or entitled; it's being financially conscious. If the perks of backing aren't worth it, why WOULDN'T I wait until retail? Of course I'll make the occasional exception for a company I trust, or a very small creator with a passion project I want to see happen.

[@TheTinnman]

I get your point. I backed Encyclopedia with extras at around $150 and it never arrived and the company folded despite the fact that it was available for a fraction of the price on Amazon and other retail locations. I still back games, but I was and am very disappointed. Mostly because it is an amazing game and I had hopes of expansions!

[@megalodon2012]

I backed it as well but I did receive my copy. Sorry to hear you got the shift on that one. It's a beautiful game.

[@rokmare]

What I don’t like about kickstarter is that sometimes there are people who create great games but once it’s fulfilled they have no interest in selling the product anymore if people aren’t willing to make more products when the demand is there than you might as well not start in the first place because in the end the people that ends up profiting from your ideas are scalpers

[@alessandroloru7786]

Vat just destroyed ks.for us in eu (italy here)...the fact that we have to pay 22% more it's insane..we have to pay +22% on shipping too.. that's just dumb.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Crowdfunded games used loop holes not to pay vat, but then you governments closed those Loop holes, because they realized the tax wasn't getting paid on those products.

[@sthompson022]

This is an interesting and timely topic. Like you, Alex, I used to back a lot of crowdfunded games. I backed off because I started seeing a lot of the same themes and mechanics across games. It started to feel like a simple rehash of previously published (and better executed) games. In a desire to "keep games simple" so that they appeal to a broader audience, games started to feel "gimmicky" instead of original and interesting. Additionally, most new games don't have "legs," meaning that once I've played them 2-3 times, I'm ready to move on. That means I'm paying $60 - $120 for 2-3 plays, and then I'm getting rid of it. Let's assume I can sell it for half the price. That means I'm spending $30 - $60 for 2-3 plays - still not a great return on investment. Long story short, the result of this that I'm FAR MORE DISCERNING when backing a game.

[@BoardGameCo]

I don't disagree, there are a lot of reasons that I back less, but they are all components of it

[@PaperFable]

You make a lot of great points. Things I look for when backing: Play throughs, so I know I will enjoy the play style. I have backed a few in the past that are amazing games, but were not games that I personally would enjoy (Gloomhaven) so I am more careful about this. Right now I want Spiritfire to convince me to back it because Unsettled is wow, unfortunately the hush hush hard to explain nature of the game doesn’t allow for that I guess. Some games will make mini scenarios specifically to showcase game mechanics and flavor while remaining spoiler free, and I wish they had done that. I also look for cool but reasonable stretch goals. Unrealistic stretch goals lead to more time in production and the possibility of production being too costly and killing the game. This is kind of a red flag when a creator is doing this for the first time because they might not realize how the stretch goals they want will effect production and cost. I have backed a few duds and I could tell the creators were devastated. They couldn’t fulfill what they had put so much time, skill, and money into creating. And crowdfunding for future projects is gonna be a hard sell, because it hurt their reputation. I also like to back deluxe editions of games, because if I am going to back a game I kind of want it to be the cooler version that will probably not be available in retail. I also like having more durable components. I also prefer games that are basically ready to hit production when entering Kickstarter. I am waiting on 1001 Odysseys its been 4 years and that sucker hasn’t hit production yet. They are working hard on it, but I’m afraid I will have lost interest by the time it arrives. I usually stay away from mini heavy games. They always look amazing but I worry they are compensating flash to distract from poor gameplay. Honestly I prefer silk screened or printed meeples and wood bits to grey plastic minis.

[@Grooty6226]

There are a couple other reasons for backing - one that I use primarily. It's not as much supporting a new idea as it is supporting an already well-liked idea that is being funded a second time around. It's for a tried and good game that is being revised and improved. Examples include Isofarian Guard 2.0, Castles of Burgundy special edition, Gloomhaven 2.0 or Frosthaven, Tainted Grail 2.0, etc. This could even apply to big names that make consistently good games such as CMON. The risk of it not happening is minimal and the chance of it being liked is higher. And if it doesn't end up being one you like then the loss is still easily justified in supporting a favorite creator. For me, I'm not interested in paying more for a game than I could get in retail for a few shiny bobbles. The shipping cost is often just too much, especially for those of us not in continental US or the EU, to experiment with new ideas unless we have loads of cash and time. When I find a game that I like then I want to support that creator in continuing to make further content, more games, and to say thank you for the hours of time your product has or will entertain us. This is primarily why and what I back. Once a year I might step out and try something untested, but it is not often. The other reason is the availability. On an island, for example, it can be harder to get our hands on popular games. We often pay additional shipping costs on products anyway. I'm not in a huge city or in the heart of shipping through the US or EU. There is not the same gaming demand for what I might want in the area. So in these situations, backers may be willing to pay a bit extra to get the game as we likely won't get it as easily at retail. Amazon is a special exception where I don't feel like it supports the little guy retailer, but that is a whole other conversation. :) Granted, this is likely the minority of backers. Great video as always, Alex! I appreciate the thoughtful examples too.

[@christopherleary7934]

Two recent experiences have soured me on backing KS/GF 1. A mostly-reprint of a challenging survival game from a well-known publisher that is 2+ years late, likely won't get delivered until Q1'24, & where the designer/company CEO has hurt feelings because backers call out the BS and incompetence so the CEO has basically turned to ignoring backers. The icing on the cake is a localization partner was primarily responsible for delays (for translation proofs) yet just sold the retail version at Essen while the rest of us wait...and wait....and wait. Rumors of "Gamefound Exclusives" in part of the retail doesn't help. 2. Publisher of an adventure book game staring several classic literary figures as heroes, and where the initial DEVELOPER (not publisher) has a social media channel associated with ducks, and where said publisher never responds to any comments (as in NEVER ever ever ever) on the GF campaign pages, the project is two years late, has yet to start production, and with two more recent games has failed to deliver product to a large number of backers and those backers claim emails are never answered either. That said, AEG had a recent KS project where an all-in bundle really was a great deal for four titles plus all expansions. In cases like this, or in cases of small publishers who still need crowd-funding, I'll still back crowd funding but at a much lower rate and a much higher degree of skepticism of getting value or anything at all.

[@BannisterNicholas]

While the Risk Threshold might be low, it still is a massive factor. If I (used to) sponsor 20 games, and 1 didn't come 'as advertised', and 4 more came but were not as good as they said it was, I have a 1:4 ratio of getting a bad game that I might not be able to even give away. So I expect all 4 games to come at 75% price of RRP, to offset that risk (or have 25% more worth from exclusives/etc) Now, throw in a 1:15 chance the company folds, that the market is flooded, so exclusives won't increase the resale price as much, VAT, shipping costs might not be able to be included in the resale, etc. The risk ratio is almost at HALF, so the price to RRP needs to be at 50%, and what company is offering that?

[@TheAmazingYeti]

On one hand I can appreciate you not running their name through the mud... however on the other I am dying to know who it was. As always, I love the way your brain works. I sometimes feel my inner monologue is similar... I just don't have a channel where I can vocalize everything kicking around in there.

[@kostascb1972]

Totally agree it is now a much worse deal backing projects than few years before. Specially for us in Europe with VAT. However there are still different levels of deals. I may be willing to support a creator sometimes even by paying a bit more than retail but some projects went far beyond bad deals. Looking at Halls of Hegra where I payed double the price retailers here now offer. To add insult to injury as if It wasn't enough that we have to pay VAT, it was sent through UK so I also had to pay customs on top of everything. Sorry but supporting has some limits too and I don't think the creator did his best to help.

[@beornthebear9023]

More and more I am growing tired of companies expecting consumers to support them without giving them something in return. I am growing more and more frustrated with companies on crowdfunding and the list of ones I am avoiding keeps getting larger. Which sucks for the ones doing a good job

[@utahman06]

I’m genuinely surprised at the amount of people who back Garphill’s KS campaigns. They offer no price breaks and their exclusives are very mundane and you end up paying much more than retail when you factor shipping. They all do very well, and I just don’t understand.

[@rgsniper2]

When a company far far exceeds their funding, and then threatens for more money (a significant amount no less) it does tend to shake ones faith in crowdfunding. Here's a shout out to Mythic Games for ruining mine and many others faith in the system. With only a very very few exceptions they have single handedly removed me from the crowd funding scene.

[@berzley]

I just buy already released games or pre-orders direct from publishers, like Stonemaier Games. Last items I backed on a crowdfunding platform was an expansion for a game I already have in April of 2023. Before that was a game in November of 2022 from a publisher I've backed two times before. I used to back games monthly. Talking about the "Team Effort" is a big reason I've backed some campaigns. I want to be involved in the process, kept up to date, and to feel like I was part of it.

[@FreeFragUK]

There are a couple of creators which I back because of how poor availability tends to be for those companies in the UK. Beyond that it largely comes down to a question of how am I benefitting as a backer versus waiting and this is something where I am finding fewer and fewer reasons. I've been stung a number of times now as a result of unforeseen issues, poor communication (if not a lack of) and costs which weren't even mentioned. These experiences inevitably change how I assess the cost of Kickstarter. Regarding your video, I admit I agree with what you've said and I think many of these things need reiterating to creators.

[@josephpilkus1127]

Always a well-nuanced delivery! Thank you very much for what you do in our industry.

[@mikeCs333]

Hey Alex! Not related to the video subject at all but have you tried DEI expansions? Will you do a video about that? Any recommendations?

[@BoardGameCo]

I have't yet but I want to :(

[@mikeCs333]

@@BoardGameCo ok! Do you still think 3 players is the best? I hesitate to buy the expansion which makes it possible to play at 5-6 since you seem to think even at 4 is not the best

[@arakuss1]

Most of my backing of games for the last 3 years, besides war games, have mainly been aimed at board games that have the extra chrome or pimped up like features. Recently there have been more of this crowdfunded games like castles of burgundy special edition or the 3d stuff for Terraforming Mars or games that have certain features that upgrade the game that you won't get from retail. So yes I am the type of person who will most likely not back a game if its going to retail and they are not offering something more that pimps up the game, adds storage features, or does something to to make the game look and feel better. I am not exactly looking for more minis or here is a several expansion stuff. Now there are exclusive games that I know will or will be hard to be find in retail that I will back just for the game. Also as I stated there are plenty of war games I do back because they are always at times hard to find in retail. I will admit though I am not your typical backer so it does take alot more for a company to tempt me to back. An example is CMON latest zombicide. Yes I wanted the band minis that you get for backing, though things liek the walls and stuff I could do better on my own. I was so on the fence about backing this game because I really did not want all those stretch goals that came with it besides getting those particular minis. I think the old statement of backer be wary just applies. I will state I have never had a kickstarter or crowdfunding issues or problem in my years of backing. Everything but one game I was happy with and that I just broke down for minis. Again I most likely am not your typical backer so still believe just do your research, make sure your wanting to wait a while for a game and don't worry about not backing something because your going to miss out. Most likely by the time it comes out if it is something that popular they will just launch another kickstarter for it. Its what I did for Oathsworn and Company of Heroes.

[@j-rod4600]

6/10 of the last games I backed on KS were expansions or for the new stuff on 2nd prints. 2/4 that didn't fall in that category where for games from companies that inhad backed before and I enjoyed their games.

[@angelal5485]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I usually avoid crowdfunding like the plague, but I recently backed the newest Red Raven game. Why? I was going to buy it retail later, but then I saw I could order the reprint of a hard to find expansion for a different game I own. Also, the new game I backed included the expansion that won't be released at retail until sometime much later. Those were great reasons for me. Most games, though, I don't need that badly and I'd much prefer to wait and see if people still like the game after playing it for a while.

[@BoardgamesforOne]

As a creator I appreciated this. I’ve held back on expressing opinions on prototypes because they are prototypes. But this has me considering that an opinion might be useful even if the products not finished. I’m still working out the kinks in featuring crowdfunded games. There are pitfalls here and here and here and here….phew….

[@Ayayaaron62]

Great rant, definitely agree with your points. I especially liked your mentioning on what happened with Endless Winter. Every fantastic board game, whether it starts on crowdfunding or not, is increasing our expectations on what a game can be. Companies are not only competing with the current hype, but also the best games of the past and upcoming retail releases. A hard space to be in for sure, but it's up to them to do the convincing

[@scottpoole72]

Not a rant. That's a misapplication of the term.

[@kumanight]

These days, it seems like I'm only backing games from Awaken Realms or CMON since the extras are worth paying more (and they always deliver). Everything else, I can wait til retail. KS is ALWAYS more expensive, frequently delivers later to backers than to retail and I don't have to deal with the shipping BS. Why would I willingly pay for other countries shipping to be subsidized when mine is ALWAYS one of the most expensive to ship to? No thanks, I'll buy retail.

[@JenCamPlaysBoardGames]

LOVE THE SHIRT!!!! I am currently in two Kickstarter nightmare situations. Sigh. It is very disheartening since I very much want to support creators.

[@BoardGameCo]

Thanks :) And ya, it really sucks unfortunately.

[@JenCamPlaysBoardGames]

@@BoardGameCo Actually so funny story....my son asked if he could buy a plushie on Amazon one day (he is 15, has a job, and has an insane amount of Amazon gift cards saved up) and i told him he can buy, he has earned the money he has. 2-3 days later a package comes and it is an octopus plushee and clearly TeeTurtle. He has no idea why I was excited and reminded him we got my husband a Tee Turtle shirt for Fathers' Day and that, "Alex always their shirts on KZbin". Kiddo was like "OH! I remember!" So yeah, they have the best shirts and the cutest products!!!

[@BoardGameCo]

@@JenCamPlaysBoardGames Oh my gosh, that's such a great story!

[@nattiem2849]

Agree with what you said. I have to give props to van ryder games. With the latest final girl kickstarter. They came out straight and said, for what was going to get,(my pledge level and what I wanted) I’d be better off waiting for retail. Not all companies would be that honest.

[@iansutton7416]

FWIW I'm still interested in crowdfunding, but I've generally been very careful about backing, and over time I've become much more aware of the hurdles that ought to be cleared before backing. Stuff like how 'complete' the game is, how the creator has performed in the past, and what they have outstanding. Then there's whether they're fulfilling locally (i.e. whether we risk import duties /admin fees), what the price is, and how that stacks up against what price it might be in retail. Add in the critical question of 'will it actually get played?' and those hurdles are a significant challenge to overcome. Personally 'exclusive' is something that doesn't influence me much, if at all. Indeed, if it looks like they're using exclusives to drive FOMO (I'm looking at you CMON), the exclusives feel like a negative, as it feels sneaky, and given the platform is built on trust, it gives me an uneasy feeling. I still value crowdfunding's effect on our hobby, as the list of games that originated on crowdfunding is significant, including many games that have become modern classics.

[@dmillar71]

Fantastic video. A few years ago, I was probably backing 20-24 games a year. This year I’ve backed 4. I’m now much more selective in what I back. I’m purposely either waiting for retail or purchasing the game used.

[@BoardGameCo]

Exactly. I back so much less than I used to

[@kbell2660]

I’m still waiting for ISS Vanguard…I see it in several FLGS (for more than I paid) secondary market (for about what I paid). Two years after pledging, I’m not so excited for it. And I hear you on Endless Winter, I’m not so sure I’m going to keep it. I’m now waiting to buy a game to first actually play the game and maybe pay a little more for it at the FLGS than crowdfund it.

[@mohnkern]

Ditto here for Vanguard. And I’ve got the art book. Lol

[@UKDagnar]

I saw it on a FB group for £150 this week with the close encounters and personnel files. Pretty good deal.

[@findle70]

Now to be fair we haven't gotten it yet because we specifically signed up for wave two content but agreed to a single and therefore lesser shipping charge agreeing to wait for wave 2 to be finished and shipped for our wave 1 to be shipped together. So we did agree to that. You also had the option to pay for separate wave shipping costs to get wave 1 last year.

[@mohnkern]

@@dannyslag they had two waves of shipping

[@Heidelmann]

Regarding ISS Vanguard you made the decision for single wave shipping. Either you ordered it late or you were there the first day. You make an informed decision when you hit that submit button. I'm waiting for it as well and deliberately chose single wave shipping (wave 2) because I hate waiting for split shipments. But the wait should be over in 2-3 months.

[@teepeezesentachtig]

It started with Flamecraft for me. Backed it, got lot's of extra's and a great game for my group! One year later, they deside to sell all stretchgoals and exclusives on their webshop. Why even bother to be a backer than? I see kickstarters like some kind of investment. It makes my version of the game a little more exclusive to the retail version. It's just a slap in the face for your backers, when you start to sell everything that makes the kickstarter version special.

[@ashleyhawkins9619]

Ha ha definately the waiting is a good shout. I still have outstanding 2019 kickstarters but still let fomo get the best of me despite knowing even after waiting 4+ years i have had enough other games arrive to easily see that same game wait that long again after arrival to see the table by which time i almost certainly could have bought it from the second hand market place. (Although i find the S/H market for big box games [at least in the UK] to set me back at least £100-£200 more than i could have backed it for which is what keeps me coming back to fomo funding).

[@pascalcallemien2498]

The only thing that bothers me when it comes to kickstarters is the timeline. We are waiting on games that should have been on our table in 2020, that 100 dollars we payed in 2019 is indeed not the same 100 dollars and the chance that the game will be something we have not seen yet is probably zero. We still do kickstarters, we usually fall back on the few previews of reviewers we know to have a similar taste, but the one thing we hate is that releasedate they put in the ads. I do not mind getting it later than the stores get it as long as it is within the timeframe that was promised. I know things can happen that slow production down, but if you put a date in your ad it should mean that as a designer you know and control 95% of the road to the finished game, otherwise do not put a date in your ad, give the backers regular updates and give them a date when you are sure you have that 95% of control. That game of 2020 seems to be shipping out now, but I still do not have any idea when I will get it, even now after 4 years the designer does not think his backers deserve a few words of information. I am all for supporting the creator, but that just is not very nice.

[@charlesbarthel4329]

Almost all my backings this year were expansions to existing games. There has been such a high volume of crowdfunded games for several years that it got the point almost everything I see in current crowdfunding summary videos is extremely similar to something I already own, or is a type of game I already concluded I'm not interested in buying several years ago. If the game gets greats reviews I may look at it again in retail, but there is no incentive for me to pay today for a future game when I can walk to my game pile and play a similar game now.

[@RocketMagnetUK]

Yep were not buying a game were backing it with the full knowledge that it may never deliver. If you can't afford to loose the money don't back it's as simple as that. My current main issue is Stretch Pay etc, no way would I ever back anything if I needed to loan the money .. seems to be a side effect of snowballing KS projects though in an effort to stand out.

[@HungryGamerReviews]

Tossing my own name out there as someone who does not do adverts on crowdfunding game

[@BoardGameCo]

Absolutely!

[@haiironezumi]

I've only recently started backing games, and I have seen a lot of exploitation of FOMO and other marketing tactics, especially from Awaken Realms (the main creator I have interacted with). The "stretch goals" being scheduled and having no connection to the level of funding raised, the scope-creep of the "all-in" options (and even the true "base" option), it is all characteristic of the arrogance that AR has displayed in their recent campaigns.

[@LeeKenshin7]

I've backed numerous games over the years and not just AR, but many companies employ these tactics. You should watch Alex's, "10 ways they hook you" video; very informative.

[@wewantthefunk73]

Kickstarter has become an episode of Black Mirror. I haven't backed anything in over 3 years and it feels great

[@ogunquit5]

I completely agree with many of your points. For me, there are just so many games out there, and so many games that are "good", it takes an "excellent" game or an "outstanding" game to catch my attention and why should I take a risk on your game when I know that Earth came out earlier this year, and I love it and can play it right now. Or any of the other direct to retail games. On top of that, when I do find a game I really want to back, well I backed Honey Buzz from ECG. And while I appreciate that Paul and others are saying the game is coming - I have no proof of it right now. And that risk, which is now VERY real to me, has turned me off even more from backing more KSes. I have backed 4 games on KS since then and all of them really came across as games that either: 1. I want to support the designer/company because they have given me a fantastic experience already and so I trust them (Sleeping Gods 2, Sagrada Artisans, Santorini Pantheon Edition - notice all of them are sequels or rereleases) or the final one was a little bit of FOMO and a little bit of "I'm going to use this KS to learn how to do painting on minis that I actually want" (Foundations of Rome - the second kickstarter). In the future, I see my KS numbers get cut down even more as I seek to lessen my risk.

[@wookiebarista]

After watching what occurs to me is perhaps we, KS enthusiasts, lose sight of how excellence in art is rare. We get our hands on The Beatles or the Van Gogh or the Frank Lloyd Wright of games and want to fill our homes with masterpieces. Taking into account personal tastes there just arent going to be a bounty of great brand new works 'for me' every year to gobble up. Being a careful curator for my own museum is probably how I need to focus my choices and expectations.

[@tiredguy2753]

Fully agree on the time thing. Almost always you are waiting a year , 2 years + for the game. Are you still going to have the same interest in that particular game 2 years from now? And this is not even getting into shipping cost , etc…

[@ciarakw]

Does anyone know where Alex got his shirt from? It's super cute 🥰

[@BoardGameCo]

Teeturtle :)

[@ciarakw]

@@BoardGameCo Thank you!

[@Dragonnox]

It frustrates me that there's also this attitude that you can't criticize the companies - every time someone posts a comment about a year-long delay, or increased shipping, there's always someone who says "delays are normal, you shouldn't back if you aren't ready for them", or my favourite, "this is nothing compared to [insert-another-delayed-project]", as if two wrongs make a right. These companies are not your friends, they are a business. The thing that annoys me most about crowdfunding is how the companies disappear from the comments as soon as they collect your money, when they should be communicating the whole time. It only takes 10 minutes a day to check the comments and be transparent. But then the same company will launch a new project, and they'll fund in under 5 minutes, because not enough people hold these companies accountable. Look at the BS surrounding CMON, all the people who complained about the insane shipping prices (I forget the exact game), but then still went and backed CMONs next project... vote with your wallets! If we keep throwing money at these companies, they don't need to make any effort to get better.

[@calvinskye]

When it comes to KS rewards, it never feels good when anything gameplay related is locked to KS only. The best thing to offer are cool extras. Custom dice, extra minis, artbooks, unique style of gameboard... Just something you can only get from KS, but those who come later won't miss out on gameplay.

[@egolend2]

At least part of the issue is the number of games wanting to be bigger with more minis than everything else. This both resulted in games getting ever bigger, and facing ever increasing production delays. Covid just put it all in focus very quickly. The logical response would be more smaller games (standies rather than minis often gets rid of 2/3rds of the volume).

[@Judgegyd3]

I wonder if you’ve been following along with the dice throne Kickstarter, I’m starting to wonder whether or not all of the requests to change certain characters art and to completely redesign a mini is an application of opinion or entitlement. I suppose the tables turn when you see the creators regularly interact with the fan base

[@nunorebelo1246]

Speaking about FOMO, i backed the Monumental reprint on KS because it was a game only available on KS. Now i'm still waiting for the game and Funforge is selling it to retail.

[@dcrbdh]

Trying to get Dwellings of Eldervale to the table at my flgs game night was like pulling teeth. Once people played it they loved it. But people were turned off by the box. I had to twist some arms. I have other games (Rurik) that would never get played at the store game night. People will choose other options.

[@coreywardell2351]

Dude you consistently just make SOLID content. keep it up. Love your stuff.

[@Urek968]

Sadly I will never back another Kickstarter because of mythic games. I could have easily picked up darkest dungeon the board game off miniature market for a reasonable price but here I am paying around 800 dollars and I still don't know if I will even get my wave 2. And lots of games I have are getting 1.5 updates making my version worse if I don't back the upgrade pack. Where I could have just waited for the 1.5/ 2nd edition and got it off retail or ebay. Most upgrade packs are impossible to find after the kickstarter because the company doesn't sell them on their websites they would rather just sell the new version. I cant find oathsworn upgrade pack, Deep rock galactic is getting a 2nd edition, Isofarian guard 2nd edition, Who goes there 2nd edition. I wont back games anymore so I can't get these 2nd edition changes.

[@Heidelmann]

Isofarian Guard was wild opening it up for the first time and seeing a completely empty storage box in there. Presumably space for 1.5 content. Yea I'm tempted to grab the update pack but I'm lowkey furious they seemed to plan it that way. Like an honest to God board game expac slot.

[@Urek968]

@@Heidelmann I think isofarian guard is the worst example of these 1.5 upgrade packs. It is such a significant amount of content. 50 new enemy cards, 100 new road events, minis games, New bosses with legendary loot, prestige system. I want it but im still not going to cave. Isofarian guard is still a huge amount of content you probably will get burnt out on before finishing in the 1.0 and the new stuff is not free its like 40 dollars plus shipping. But one thing you should know is that the extra box was originally intended to store the sleeved cards from what they said. Its possible they planned this 1.5 before delivering though.

[@Heidelmann]

@@Urek968 you are right. It's still a huge game at 1.0. Insane value for what was paid initially. The upgrade kit is completely reasonable. Just felt suspect. But the dev might just have run out of dev cash flow and had to let it go mostly complete sans all the new fleshed out systems.

[@ThomasHelms]

A game I'm passing on (but still want to get) is Cascadero; it's coming from a well-known designer, an established publisher, and there's no incentive to back right now. I'm 100% sure it'll make it to retail and I can get it cheaper down the road. There are some games that I've backed because I like what the designer is trying to do, even if it doesn't 100% land with me (Hidden Leaders and Doors of Aldabas: Doors of Cartagena, come to mind), but I know are smaller print runs. I think Mythic is a great example of a company running on very thin, if any, profit margin. I definitely feel sorry for the backers that are still waiting on their copies from unfullied campaigns and I think Mythic couldn't pivot fast enough in the wake of Covid; they had too many projects that were still trying to use pre-2020 estimates. That's not to fully excuse them of accountability, but I think we often see more angry backers complaining about the increase costs passed down to them than we see conversations on economics of the situation, so it's easy to see the "entitled". It's often easier to kvetch then to have compassion.

[@Lowzone16]

The only thing I back now are the games that are not making in my local dealers shops. For examples: Luis Brueh is one of the designer I will always back. CMON I'll never back again. (Even If I'm "Missing" the Kickstarter Exclusive)

[@kumanight]

Arkeis, Robot Quest Arena and Trekking Through History are KS games I picked up at retail with most of the extras. Paid less, didn't have to wait for shipping and I supported my FLGS. Win win win.

[@koklead7904]

Wait so youre saying that $250 full sized board game tablr is not to be trusted??

[@TheHipHopapotimus]

I had a KS backed game that was $65, then I paid taxes, then shipping. It was then well over $80. I then had customs hold my package ransom for another $20… a hidden import fee. What was I going to do, not pay? They already had my other money. Paid almost 110 bucks, and within a month I saw the game for $65 in store. I’ll never back that publisher’s games again. I’d rather go without than get ripped off. Makes me sick. The other crazy thing is for some brand new game you have absolutely zero idea if they are good! They’ve never been played or truly reviewed. You expect me to spend $600 on an all-in gameplay bundle- and the game may suck?

[@nunorebelo1246]

The biggest reason not to back a game is that you don't know if you will get it or when will you get it. I'm still waiting for games i backed 2/3 years ago.

[@TravistheGREAT03]

Simple question: what would happen if everyone stoppen pledging withe argument they get it in retail? What would they get in retail if everyone did that?

[@georgebell1684]

A better, more vetted product, because the business would have to do due diligence before taking money that they actually have to pay back.

[@TravistheGREAT03]

@@georgebell1684 No, if everyone acted this way you would get no product at all. Most people here make the mistake to basically assume the game will go retail anyway, which is not the case for most projects. Even if a designer/creator/team later receives outside funding then that often only happens because a successful crowdfunding project has proven necessary animo to the outside funder.

[@gabi33chan]

This is true that crowdfunding is becoming more and more problematic. I backed some games, will back some more for sure, but I can see how it changes. Companies want more money and CF is a very safe way to secure good cash flow (which is even more important that profit, trust me). Prices are rising, however it's hard to match global rise to board games - we can still sometimes hear about those expensive ships from China, even if it's not the case anymore. People at the same time are more sensitive to spending money - when you add mortage, groceries, bills, it seems like for many the budget is stretching. And screaching. Lots of veterans are deciding to lessen on backing due to having less time (work, family, anything), gaming circles broken (due to many reasons as well) and reselling might be not the answer when you want to enjoy your game. I'm not even touching how FOMO is used heavily on campaings, this is beyond everything. So the crowd is tired and they have any right to be so.

[@rudypeeters8713]

Expensions of Everdell where way more expensive then retail + backers got them 6 months after retail (better deluxe content yes, but with shipping double the price for both expansions seperate even)

[@gnobahdi]

Great commentary and in truth in our hearts we know this but we will give in to the temptation of backing even knowing we may not table the game until there are already similar or better applications of the same mechanics and theme. I have considerably limited my backing and even not choosing expansions just for the sake of completion, however, I may still on occcasion f1~all for FOMO. For example, I have yet to play one module of Fiinal Girl first season and I backed 2nd and now 3rd wondering how different could these games be? There's got to be some sameyness in the modules.

[@tomlady7922]

Kickstarter is the slowest f---ng e-shop in the world.