Bojack Horseman - Is Bojack "The Victim"?

[@bascal133]

One of my favorites lines in bojack is when herb says I’m not going to be your prop to make you feel better. If bojack really cared about the peoples he’s hurt half as much as himself he would change his behavior.

[@JessiRose420]

Bacall McElroy that’s depression for ya. He does care but he doesn’t think he can do better, I blame his parents for that one

[@bascal133]

leslie harrison there are plenty of depressed people who don’t hurt those around them, I think his parents were an influence but there are also people who have been abused who aren’t abusive themselves too, so I really hold bojack responsible and accountable above everything. I’m mean 😈

[@JessiRose420]

He should be held responsible and all of those other people don’t act like BoJack because they’re not BoJack only BoJack has bojacks back story, mind set, and life. I believe bojack thinks he’s suffered the most because he’s the one holding himself accountable more than anyone else and because of how he was treated by his parents as a kid he doesn’t think he deserves to be happy and he doesn’t think he can change

[@nadicontour5073]

leslie harrison I believe Bojack’s narcissistic personality disorder is the reason why he can’t get better. Yes he has depression because of his NPD but ultimately I think most of his actions are driven off of his NPD, and that his reactions to his consequences are from his depression. He does want to get better, and I believe he thinks he can get better too, but he doesn’t understand why he isn’t. I feel like if he didn’t think he could change, he wouldn’t keep trying. I think he understands his depression to an extent, by definitely not his NPD. He’s knows something isn’t right but he doesn’t know what. It’s not likely that he’ll ever able to carry out changing either, because of his NPD. Unless he gets help, and even then, he’s 55 years old now, it’ll be hard to fix.

[@kallamarsspouse]

BoJack isn't a narcissist, it's definitely BPD (which I'm diagnosed with). Narcissists cannot love other people, he does. BoJack doesn't think he's the greatest unless told he is. He knows he's a piece of shit and there is no hyperego visible.

[@WobblesandBean]

What I find so refreshing about this show is how real it is. I grew up in the hollywood haze. Literally everyone who's "made it" that I ever knew was never truly happy, yet everyone else still idolizes them and desperately wants that life. It's funny how, in a show about talking animals, they somehow found the most accurate portrayal of hollywood I have ever seen.

[@princesslulu5795]

Wobbles and Bean I think the choice of having animals be characters is a great way of showing how oblivious and self absorbed people in the entertainment industry can be

[@WobblesandBean]

@@princesslulu5795 Can you please explain? I haven't really noticed. Like, I don't recall seeing any "stereotypical" animals in roles line that, such as pigs being studio execs, etc. I particularly like how the animals you DO see make no sense, like a dolphin pop star, or a whale news reporter 😂

[@katietaylor8314]

I've spent my whole adult life in the entertainment industry, and I saw at firsthand how it changes people. My own taste of fame was fun at the time, but it did me absolutely no good in the long run. The moment I stopped getting my regular fix of attention, my self-esteem went straight down the toilet along with my mental health. Fame is poisonous.

[@WobblesandBean]

@@katietaylor8314 Omg, same!! Wow, I hated the person I became once I got my own big break. I was meeting celebrities, going to parties thrown by some real big stars, and was in a few really big name productions. I started to get a bit of an ego, and I admit I was kinda bratty as a result. God, it's so embarrassing looking back! And just like you, when a really bad injury ended my career, I felt like I'd never amount to anything again. To this day, I feel like I peaked at 24 and I'll forever be a total loser. I hate myself, and I feel horribly ugly while my friends back in L.A. are all still thin and beautiful, even though I know they're unhappy, I still envy them. I know, it's so stupid, right? But I do. There's even an industry term for women like me who gain weight or age out of modeling: "self-destructed". Like, if a girl got pregnant, she was dropped from the agency and that's what we were told, she self-destructed. It's all so fucked up. And it's even more fucked up that I still let that dictate my own self worth. I am so, sorry you had to go through any of that.

[@MrOldboy1971]

They aren't in Hollywood, their in Hollywoo God damn it!

[@EmbalmerEmi]

People can get away from Bojack and move on but he can never escape himself.

[@WobblesandBean]

"You're Bojack Horseman. Ain't no cure for that."

[@mistertagomago7974]

I feel like it's important to point out that the people Bojack hurt are also responsible for their own actions.

[@vertigo3274]

Yeah nope Sarah Lynn had agency. It was certainly wrong of Bojack to tempt Sarah Lynn back into a stupid long drug filled bender, but ultimately Sarah Lynn decided to go with him. In fact, she decided without a second thought. Lol Everyone has agency and can make their own decisions. Life is sacred and death is permanent, but Diane bringing up Sarah Lynn only leads me to say well then Sarah Lynn suffered the most from Sarah Lynn’s actions.

[@GVideosGregh]

Vertigo 327 Sarah Lynn was pretty much doomed and we saw that the very first episode she was introduced - growing up as a child star and stuff. Well, “doomed” in this case could be changed. She tried to change her fate for the better once, and she did pretty good: staying sober for months. But she threw that away the second Bojack called her. (Or heck, they could have just have some drinks and call it a night, and she would’ve woken up the next day.) Doing that was just stupid and Bojack is not responsible for all that.

[@jdamourep]

@@mistertagomago7974 Yeah part of me wants to say, Bojack, why did you do that these people were deeply hurt by your actions, on the other hand, it's almost like for the people he didn't actively screw over, he was just a catalyst for bad events, and he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Penny seemed fine, and of course that could be her trying not to think about her or bojacks actions that night, but in all really, She came on to him, sober and it was perfectly legal. Just not the morally correct thing to do. Bojack shouldn't have went on that literal drug trip with Sarah- Lynne but she shouldn't have been so quick to stop being sober, because if it wasn't Bojack, then who would have called her? It's not About making Bojack to seem like he isn't the cause of these incidents or that he is innocent but it's to realize, hey, maybe his own issues are just amplified by the issues of other people and their actions, and he ends up being the guy who takes the brunt of it because he's involved. The truely terrible thing he did last was choke Gina and that was because of his drug problem. That was his fault. Everyone with few exceptions is terrible, Bojack is just one of those people. Everyone needs to walk away from each other.

[@jvukovic4]

"Judge a man by his actions, rather than his words." defines Bojack so well. He can be the biggest victim, but at the end of the day, it really dosent matter who the biggest victim is. Even under the assumption that he is the biggest victim of himself, its not undeserved, since he acts in a way that made it happen. Great video btw.

[@tpop7981]

lets go serbia

[@vingram100]

Yeah, especially with the 17 year old he nearly molested and cause further trauma by entering her life again for selfish reasons.

[@cookiebandit18]

Excellently put.

[@willmiles9639]

Fourkov you have to take in account his messed up upbringing, it’s seems his parents never really cared, and trust me that can and will led to outrageous behavior,, you can know that your behavior is dangerous and still can’t do anything to change it because you are wired differently from your upbringing.

[@megashark3870]

It isn't entirely his fault, though. His upbringing never taught him right or wrong. It taught him he was worthless; undeserving of love and affection. It taught him to never trust anyone. It taught him that alcohol is good. Then, just as he got out of that, he starts Horsin' Around. And he becomes a star, in the 90's. No one holds him accountable for anything; he doesn't get the help he needs because he doesn't realize how much he needs it. No one around him really helps him, except for Herb. Herb was one of, if not the best part of Bojack's life. And even that's taken away from him; both due to himself and due to the executives. I don't think it's fair to say it's Bojack's fault, how he is. He *never* got the help he needed to become a happier, better version. If he was never taught to be good, never taught to love himself, never taught to *function* how is he supposed to be able to do any of that?

[@Carlos-ne3zf]

I think is important to notice Bojack wasnt the only one who wronged Sarah Lynn and pushed her into her death, hell he wasnt even the bigger push just the last one but he is the only one that takes tge blame, he takes all the guilt of her life on to him. Not her neglecting mother, her implied abuser stepfather, nor the co-stars closer to her age, not herself being the one in charge of her life, all the guilt is pushed on Bojack and the one that push it the most is Bojack himself she was a victim but only Bojack's victim and as twsited as it may sound he was the only one to care enough about her to take the blame

[@Orto-jj2di]

Pretty accurate

[@terrencemoldern2756]

Exactly. To me I think the bigger argument a lot of people don’t get isn’t how Bojack is a terrible person. It’s how life is terrible or rather how we have life now is... Bojack is a product of his time as much as many of these characters and the argument that he needs to brake the cycle for himself is shallow and is as ignorant as telling someone who is depressed to just be happy. We live in a toxic, disgusting culture that grows these sort of things and makes it impossible to be any different. People like Bojack are terrible because it’s all that they can be without just straight up ending their own life... which can be said to be selfish but at the end of the day it’s self preservation. Something we all have in common. I find it funny how so many who have seen this show critique Bojack and write him off as a bad man when many of them themselves are just as toxic and ignorant to the world around them. Bojack is one of the most human characters I’ve seen and I like him as that because he not only exposes our reality but is a perfect reflection for most who watch this show. Just sad to see some ignore that reflection and act morally above in any way

[@Orto-jj2di]

@@terrencemoldern2756 Now that's deep and true.

[@FuckTheYoutubeUsernameChange]

nnnno, bojack is a terrible person. he could have saved her life, but didn't.

[@Orto-jj2di]

@@FuckTheKZbinUsernameChange yes and that only proves what he is, a product of his time and surroundings which are to blame too for Sarah. He wasn't even the strongest push of Sarah Lynn unlike her career colleagues or her parents. Bojack was only the last push

[@phantomstrider]

Discussed thoughtfully and kindly with a strong empathy for all sides. Always enjoy your discussions of Bojack, Shady. Cheers.

[@ShadyDoorags]

Tis why I did the "Top Ten Worst Things of Season 5" vid. Without an outlet like that, there was no way I could look at things objectively in anything regarding this season. Shoot, when making this vid, every part of me wanted to disagree with what Diane was saying just because she was the one saying it.

[@phantomstrider]

I know what you mean. I personally felt even more hostile than usual to Diane in season 5 and it didn't help that the show seemed to paint her as the voice of reason. It was certainly a season of mixed feelings. Here's hoping we can have some nice surprises in season 6.

[@reesespieces9894]

All I want to know is What happened to Sharona the makeup lady on horsin' around

[@joro8693]

Mya Anderson got her pregnant and she probably believed in him big time and really hurt her making her have an abortion and it probably got ugly, in the small screen time we see her she looks at him like a star and looks up to him a lot and wants him to be a better person, she was probably the first real relationship he had when he became a star and it probably runs in the back of his mind as the first time he showed his real side and not the star from horsin around. I’m just guessing this though.

[@JessiRose420]

I think we might find out because she’s been in every season so far so I really hope they tell us

[@maximelepage7664]

Well now you know

[@RozehKakes]

season 6: Allow me to reintroduce myself...

[@polashteens]

Now we know

[@efoxkitsune9493]

That's the thing about BoJack. He keeps feeling terrible and guilty, he keeps saying he's sorry, but he doesn't change his behaviour. He's still very much self-centered, and I don't blame him for not knowing how to care for others, considering the circumstances, but that doesn't make it okay. Although to be completely fair, he did undergo a certain evolution since season 1. I really, really hope season 6 will bring a change for the better for him. He made the first, big step to recovery, which he's been avoiding all this time: he admitted he needs help, and actually got it. I pray it pays of... He needs some hope.

[@JP-sm4cs]

Spot on

[@mariapotapova3511]

Well, acknowledging the damage you've done does not equal really caring, and, most importantly, changing. It all really boils down to that one Todd's monologue, "You are all the things that are wrong with you". Playing the victim does nothing, this is not America's Next Top Victim contest. It's not about who feels the worst, it's about what can be done about it. What's needed is a real conscious attempt of change, and we're yet to see it.

[@JJ-zm3ne]

You might actually be Princess Carolyn. Wonderfully said

[@mariapotapova3511]

@@JJ-zm3ne Wow, this is one hell of a compliment! I actually aspire to be like her, in some positive aspects. Thank you!

[@Ralathar44]

For a normal mentally healthy person it's that easy. When you're not mentally healthy however it's a different game. It's nearly impossible to get normal people to understand even something small like insomnia. Forget severe depression and other mental illness. People make alot of assumptions predicated on their normal healthy minds that just don't work the same way for a mentally ill person.

[@mariapotapova3511]

@@Ralathar44 I myself had had severe depression and suicidal tendencies for three years. So even though mental illnesses affect different people differently, I'm sure I kind of know what I'm talking about. It won't end if you start taking antidepressants and it won't end if you'll spend a couple of months in a hospital, it will go away only when you've worked through your trauma and you are ready and willing to change.

[@efoxkitsune9493]

YES. Thank you.

[@gabrielcaro]

This is why many may say moving on from your mistakes is the most important thing you can do for yourself. Because you will suffer worse the more you dwell on your past actions. You can think back on what you could’ve done differently all you want, that won’t make things different. Another great video man!

[@misadventure5216]

But also better yourself and don’t make that mistake again. You gotta improve, that’s the most important part.

[@shaokhan4421]

Forgiving yourself is cathartic!

[@SupachargedGaming]

Guilt is such a useless emotion.

[@SupachargedGaming]

@ If you touch a hot stove, do you feel guilty afterwards? Or do you regret your action.

[@poppagBallZ97]

true dat

[@vidlink]

While yes, Bojack does suffer from his own actions and while it is debatable wether or not he suffered more from them then people influenced by them, I would however say most of the other characters also suffer from their own actions or lack thereof. Sarah Linn may of been influenced by Bojack's talk to her when she was young but all the drugs, partying were all her own decisions as well. Bojack didn't force or coerce her to do it. Both Mr. Peanutbutter and Diane also suffer from their own actions and lack therof as well. Mr. Peanutbutter suffers from his seemingly inability to grow and listen but just constantly distracts himself to avoid reality of his actions and emotions. Diane suffers like Bojack with guilt but she puts on a front of being morally superior when in reality her decisions are just as questionable as Bojacks. In the end, one the major themes of the show seems to be about agency (freewill) and using it correctly by showing that your choices and actions matter so use your agency wisely.

[@metanightmare4454]

There's one point Shady didn't mention that I think does contribute in an important way to Bojack's side of the argument, especially regarding Sarah Lynn, and it involves that realistic perspective he was talking about. The flashbacks to Horsin' Around may focus on how Bojack hugely influenced Sarah Lynn's development, but that doesn't mean he was the only one responsible for her outcome. We see that Sarah Lynn's father is absent, but he's possibly dead, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the sake of argument and instead focus on her step-dad, who is implied to have sexually abused her, and her mother who was clearly your typical pageant mom who doesn't care about her beyond what she can squeeze for herself out Sarah Lynn's career, both of which are largely why she became so attached to Bojack as a father-figure in the first place (As a side note, we do see Bojack legitimately trying to give her advice about how to survive in showbiz. Yeah it's really bad advice but he seemed to legitimately think it would be helpful, which is more effort than her family seems to be putting into raising her.). And as cliche as it is, part of the blame surely falls on the spectacle-obsessed Hollywood society that obviously enabled and even pushed her into the reckless Miley Cyrus-esque lifestyle she lived in the present. Lastly, like vidlink said, we have to recognize the fact that when Sarah Lynn died, she was a grown woman (specifically in her 30's) capable of making her own choices and who needs to be held accountable for her own actions. Bojack didn't forcibly drag her on that bender, he didn't even really even have to convince her. It's pretty obvious that sooner or later, she would've relapsed even without Bojack. And for those who would say that she can't be held accountable because she's an addict or a product of her environment, then by that logic, we can't rightly hold Bojack accountable for his actions either because both of those statements apply to him as well. I'm not saying that Bojack is innocent, but Diane is clearly wrong to pin all the blame on him for what happened to Sarah Lynn (that isn't to say that it's out of character for the ultra-intersectional Diane of season 5, who has repeatedly shown that she will do absolutely anything to win an argument, no matter how underhanded. I'm just saying that she's being extremely unfair). Given the fact that he's only partially responsible and that she would've had a pretty messed up life without him, I can't honestly say whether she suffered more from Bojack than Bojack did since he actually feels 100% of the guilt, as if he IS the only one responsible, and we don't know how much of that is actually deserved. To be clear, Herb and Penny weren't totally his fault either, as there were other players to consider in those stories too, but it's most relevant for Sarah Lynn. I think there are two main reasons this wasn't addressed in the show. The first, and more understandable reason was that there were apparently a number of fans who used Bojack to justify their own similar bad actions, operating under the belief that his behavior, and thus their own, was okay and acceptable. The second, more troubling, reason boils down to the creators' political agendas, but I really don't want to get into politics so I'll leave that alone, but they both basically amount to the creators feeling that they needed Bojack to completely lose that argument in no uncertain terms, regardless of whether it was really giving him a fair shake or not. All things considered and with the limited information we have, I'm just gonna go in the middle and say they're both major victims of Bojack's and to a lesser extent Sarah Lynn's actions.

[@gabe_s_videos]

I agree. As I mentioned above, what makes Bojack a fascinating character IMO is that nothing is technically entirely his fault. He's too sick to know how to function any better that how he does and that sickness always puts him in the wrong place at the wrong time. But more than agency, I'd say that a lot of the characters' flaws in this show are related to pride, they're too proud to admit that they need help or even that they're wrong, largely because they're all sick in their own ways and always in the way that rubs up against the other characters' problems.

[@elleofhearts8471]

@Sardonicus I'd like to go further with that wants to hate himself bit. There could be a part of bojack that wants to hate himself to be able to live with himself to a certain degree. He doesn't want to be a complete bad guy and to do that he keeps himself and others aware that he feels bad about the people he hurts. He justifies his own humanity and why he keeps living, as opposed to committing suicide, with the though process of "well at least I feel bad about the bad things I do even if I never make any lasting change in myself. And that's more than genuinely bad people do, therefore I'm not a genuinely bad person. I havent dont so much wreckage to my life that it's too late to go back but have nothing to live on for" If bojack were to have that tiny ambiguously good fragment of his self image destroyed (and by extent his only justification for living) , that would be enough to actually go through with suicide because he cant handle thinking of himself as a genuinely bad person with no hope for redemption. even if other people do (dian). It merely helps if other people thinks hes good (which is why he asked dian if she thinks hes a bad person) but in the end bojack has to live with himself and has to justify to himself why continuing to live life is worth it and he shouldn't commit suicide (yet). It's because he feels hes not a genuinely bad person yet. He keeps hope for himself. He also thinks that's it's not him that's truly making bad decisions for himself but the drugs and mental illness. One part of him thinks that if he were off drugs and were free from mental illness, he wouldnt make bad decisions. but another side of bojack isnt truly sure of that and is why he keeps getting stuck in the same cycles. hes afraid that if he does get rid of all of the things holding him back, he will still be a bad person underneath it all. He fears that that's who he genuinely is, drugs and mental illness or not. And is why he keeps relapsing every time he tries to recover. He has comfort in not knowing for sure. It's easier to stay where you are and blame drugs and mental illness than to overcome drugs and mental illness in an effort to be a better person only to be met with the crushing irealization that it didnt matter because that's who you are and will always be no matter what you do. Which is bojack's biggest fear. It doesnt help that theres nothing justifying why he should think otherwise of himself. There was never a point in time when bojack was satisfied with himself. He never had a chance in life to have that due to being abused from childhood and never being to satisfy his own parents.

[@NCMETAL]

@@metanightmare4454 what an excellent deconstruction, well said mate, well said.

[@TheCrowFKAPS]

i think it's important to remember that, with sarah lynn, there were other deeper problems that caused her to cling to bojack, especially when she was a child. i mean, she was molested by her stepfather and her mother was a crazy stage mom. if she had a better home life, bojack wouldn't have been such an influence on her to begin with. i believe bojack should've been more mindful of his impact on her, especially toward the end, but also admit that it's not technically his responsibility and there's no way he would've known how to guide her if he tried. imo season 4 proved that with his inability to guide hollyhock despite his best efforts. so with the sarah lynn dying thing, i saw it as two adults with the mentality of teenagers enabling each other and making a series of terrible mistakes because neither know how to be responsible. bojack could have died just as easily from their risk-taking. but instead he has to live. so one could argue that yes, he suffers the most because he lost someone he cared about and blames himself, whereas sarah lynn is dead and "free" in a way. I'm not sure where I stand, but i do pity bojack and i found diane to be annoying this episode, seeing as how she's not exactly a saint in season 5. so her getting to stay the voice of reason was just bull shit imo. ...why am i not making video essays wtf i can't believe i typed all this into a comment. i think i'll quite while i'm ahead. good video, i enjoyed it.

[@PropheticShadeZ]

Yea, i agree with you on diane being a hypocrite here, she always seeks to better herself and hold to a standard, but constantly fails and then judges others for their mistakes, the points shes making arent wrong, but i feel as if her judgement is incorrect, she sees black and white, like a lot of us, and i think it would be a fantastic opportunity to explore the harms of an unyielding viewpoint, but i felt the show just assumes diane is right here and moved on

[@kudosayala4943]

@piper I completely agree with you 100% on literally everything you said, man.. That's crazy. All that was literally on my mind too.

[@kudosayala4943]

@@PropheticShadeZ yea man that's what annoyed me the most of season 5. It seems to me they really want to push Diane as the best most logical person in the show despite how damn faulty she is as well. Everyone is giving shit to peanut butter for cheating on pickles but Diane was a part of it yet, she didn't even slightly feel bad. In fact, she even talks to pickles as if it never happened. You're telling me that's the voice of reason? I hope it isn't the whole woman empowering bs thing. I don't hate her character I just hate how she can literally fuck up a lot too but it's hidden under the rug because she always finds the obvious solution..

[@ravenn2631]

I’m not exactly, sure, but I think what makes us all like Bojack so much despite his flaws is that he’s rather honest and straightforward about his flaws. He isn’t two faced, lies or willing not to admit his mistakes. You can take him up front, and you know what he’s like. Unlike Diane, he is more consistent in his lifestyle rather than bouncing through one cause for another as a hypocrite. He’s consistent in a rather flawed way of having unhealthy coping methods, but he’s just. . . refreshing stable in a way. I remember when Diane said, “You are the biggest asshole I know, but you’re the only thing to me that makes sense.” I haven’t got anywhere near the shit Bojack gives people, but I feel like that type of asshole sometimes. But again, all I can do is just move forward to change rather than guilt myself for my mistakes.

[@wizardclintx7981]

Piper this has all been covered, there's no need to be so mad

[@church7089]

I think you too easily dismiss the longterm consequences on Herb and Penny. Imgine seeing only a snapshot of Bojacks life after some of these decisions, since that's what we get for the other characters. Using your logic, he has many moments where hes doong great: hes wealthy, hes developing his friendships, hes taking control of his habits. But it doesnt stay that way all the time. And while we get to see all of bojacks pain, we only ever get to see a fraction of the other characters pain through bojacks eyes.

[@evasmiljanic3529]

Agrees. Sure, Herb got his life together, but Bojack didn't see years of suffering, pain and betrayal he had to deal with due to his actions, and as a consequence the viewers don't see them as such a big deal. Same for Penny. By not showing their pain, it's easy to brush off Bojack's mistakes

[@z.m5885]

@@evasmiljanic3529 THANK YOU

[@kilobaxi3378]

You are not your depression and so it's like another person attacking you.

[@gabe_s_videos]

And, in turn, why so many things that aren't personal attacks feel like they are, because you already have one person ragging on you about how you're doing everything wrong, and why so many people with depression tend to lash out at any perceived slights.

[@bubbles4897]

Gabriel Schleifer ughhhh THIS right here!!!!

[@totallyawesomesteph]

Penny is a subject I wish was brought up more as the majority of opinions on her are either black or white with very little grey areas and to view her pseudo-relationship with Bojack as strictly one or the other demeans the character and what Bojack feels toward her. The argument I hear the most is "well she was the aggressor in the situation and while there is a twinge of truth in this, the fact remains she was 17 at the time. Forget the age of consent, it has nothing to do with that. As a teenaged girl with no actual dating experience, Penny's only real point of context with the opposite sex are her brother and her father. Bojack is the first male outside of these preexisting relationships to take any kind of interest in her. Being treated like an adult and by a man no less, her first reaction toward him was a steadily developing crush. As a fully grown man, and a friend of her family's, what should have happened is what does happen initially. He pulled away and told her to go back to her room. After being rejected by Charlotte, having Penny be in his room is where he reacts improperly. A man of his age should have known a young girl had no idea what she was doing and his reaction should have been kicking her off the boat and locking his door. As an adult, he was not looking out for a teenager's best interest. No matter how much she claimed to want it, it was up to Bojack to rebuff her advances and send her on her way. It doesn't matter how hard Penny protests her desire, as the adult it was his job to send her away. This is why he lives with such insurmountable guilt. His reaction wasn't because of love or parental concern or even from one friend to another. It was selfish, self centered and completely inappropriate. A girl can throw herself at you, but that still doesn't qualify as consent. Legally, maybe. But definitely not morally.

[@ShadyDoorags]

Personally, my stance on Penny relies specifically on two factors. First, Bojack viewed Penny as a young girl. It doesn't matter if Penny was 150, if Bojack viewed her as someone it would be inappropriate to go that far with, then he shouldn't have proceeded. Second, even though we don't know what happened between Bojack telling Penny to go to bed and Charlotte walking in on them, Bojack's recollection of the event suggests he would've gone through with it. That says to me that Bojack was willing to do the deed with someone he believed wasn't capable of consenting, which puts him in the wrong. In a court of law, he would be found innocent, but so would many of the horrible things these characters are guilty of that are morally wrong.

[@LuisChavez-ms5ln]

He said no multiple times

[@assyrianprincess3]

Thank god one of you has a brain

[@friendlyghosthost1830]

@@LuisChavez-ms5ln doesn’t matter

[@southerngirlyyy]

​@@LuisChavez-ms5ln that still doesn't change the fact that he let her get on his bed. he could've locked the door or something but no. you can see she was about to take his bow tie off and then who knows what would've happened if the mom didn't come in.

[@acrodstain]

I agree that Bojack could the most likely feel like the victim but inexcusably that doesn't justify his actions on others, nor what he did and acted out. But he suffer through resentment while his victims finally resolve their problems. Bojack may suffer the most as a "victim of his own actions" but he still holds accountable for what he did and to those that eventually died (Sarah Lynn)

[@JessiRose420]

That’s his point. BoJack knows he’s not the victim but he is the victim of having to deal with the guilt of all the shitty things he’s done. He knows he’s done shitty things and he regrets all of them. I kinda see it like BoJack could’ve done 50 different shitty things to 50 different people but to those people it’s just one shitty thing that’s happened to them but to BoJack he has to live knowing he did 50 shitty things to 50 people who didn’t deserve it

[@princesslulu5795]

leslie harrison I never thought of it like that before. Man no wonder bojack is so miserable

[@GVideosGregh]

Understanding someone’s pain and finding their actions questionable are two different things. We all pretty much think Bojack is an asshole, and there is no excuse for his behavior, but we can still claim that he suffers a lot - partially because of his own actions.

[@teacoon6399]

Insert youR name Sarah Lynn dug her own grave

[@noonebossesthegarnet2890]

Like the guy above me said, Sarah Lynn dug her own grave. She became sober because she thought doing drugs after being sober for so long would feel great. She kept drugs hidden in her own home. Bojack just tagged along in her spree.

[@sketchyjulia]

I would agree that yes, BoJack does suffer from GUILT or his actions, his abusive childhood, his mental illness, and addictions, but saying that he suffered the most in situations where he hurt another person, than no. I suppose my issue/disgust with BoJack saying “I’ve suffered the most” was that he was ignoring the people he actually hurt because of his actions, like Sarah Lynn, Penny etc, and he was using it to justify said horrible actions/behavior/attitude That being said, of course I still sympathy for BoJack and the shit he’s gone through, and I still want him to get better, even though he’s a one step forward, three steps back character

[@teacoon6399]

Julia 713 Sarah Lynn dug her own grave though

[@z.m5885]

YES thank you I dont get how everyone is accepting bojacks victim blaming. Hes treating all the people he violated as though they dont have it as hard as him, while we clearly see penny suffering from seeing bojack in season 5. We can understand how he has been hurt in ths past, but in no way whatsoever can he give himself the right to invalidate those girls and put his own feelings above them. It especially irks me when hes not even willing to change who he is, even if he claims he wants to move past this. He just can't pity himself when someone else got hurt

[@MK-mb5jk]

@@z.m5885 Where do you think he got that mentality from? He is a victim from his childhood past just like his mom was from her’s. The problem with Bojack however, is that he doesn’t move on from his victim hood just like his mother which in term harmed others. Does it mean that Bojack’s are justified no, but it shows that he is human as well.

[@billqiu4692]

@@teacoon6399 "Sarah Lynn was gonna kill herself anyways so Bojack did nothing wrong" The fuck is wrong with you?

[@mrsunderstood8141]

@@teacoon6399 Bojack was the root of her addiction. He exposed her to alcohol at a young age. Bojack and her are similar, where their upbringing contributed to their addiction, and it's bojacks fault she started, it's bojacks fault she continued, and it's bojacks fault she stopped being sober. If Bojack called during the 17 minutes she could have survived. Sarah Lynn is still more of a victim than Bojack even if Bojack died, because she did not choose to rest and if he succeeded in his attempts he would have chosen it.

[@WitchLunaEstrella]

I think the fact that the show can bring this up as a discussion is highly refreshing. If you boil down most of what has happened down to actions and facts, it paints a rather nasty picture of Bojack and it's unlikely people would be sympathetic towards him at all. However, the show illustrates not just what he's done, but why he does it and the more complex network of people, ideas and events that created these situations and his mentality. It doesn't glamorize or excuse anything and it's still pretty clear that Bojack isn't absolved of responsibility, it just shows a more nuanced and complicated picture of him. It's especially refreshing because we live in a day and age where even a stupid tweet you made or something rude you said to someone once can completely destroy everything you've worked for. The past is harder than ever to leave as the past because it's easier than ever for people to keep bringing it into the present. People get too fixated on the bare bones of what's happened and pass judgement without knowing the full context or allowing for room for debate on certain issues. I don't agree with everything that's in the show, but what I love about the show is that I don't have to like all of it. It usually leaves enough room for debate or conversation, for nuance and complications, that even though sometimes I disagree with how characters are acting, there's at least space to understand it.

[@christiannataylor2735]

I think this show is to demonstrate that people are just people. If you're sick of him repeating his mistakes, let them move on and don't hold a grudge. Bojack also needs to let go of his past and move forward. Not forget, but forgive himself and do better

[@Henrique.Souza0601]

Or forget, but never forgive (Arrested Development philosophy) hahaha

[@christiannataylor2735]

@@Henrique.Souza0601 Exactly, and it's toxic. Communication is an important thing

[@jasmintea8825]

Bojack should not forgive himself lmaon

[@MultiLimpet]

Bo Jack ended up alone at the end

[@tanihehe]

Bojack is so deep...that sometimes you're like 'well..he may be right..' then you realise most of the time he isnt but you see so much of yourself in bojack that you WANT him to be right, so that you're right. This show is one of the finest. It explores so much and makes your head spin. In a good way.

[@maxiedoo]

That conversation between BoJack and Diane really highlighted his selfish-ness when he said that he was the victim and that the people he's negatively affected "don't even remember". BoJack has to live with the consequences of his action, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's a victim. If he feels unloved and that he's not a good person, it's because his actions are often that of a bad person. It's like saying someone who committed a crime and had to serve a prison sentence is a victim (prison time to crime ratio and possible innocence aside). But further, he doesn't know how his action impacted the people he hurt. Penny seeing BoJack was an early counter to that notion. Penny seemed fine on the surface, but she was living with trauma caused by BoJack. When she saw BoJack, it triggered an episode that showed the Trauma that she continues to live with. While it doesn't control every aspect of her life (not all trauma does), it still has a hold on her that even we as the audience aren't fully aware of. And that's just Penny, as there are more unnamed characters who could also be living with trauma caused by BoJack's action. So no, it may not the "intersectional PC thing to say" but it is the selfish and egotistical thing to say.

[@crystalcharee57]

Yes! Thank you! The great thing about that conversation was the writers showing how selfish people who hurt other people are. How they excuse their actions, even to the point of saying that what they did didn't have a lasting impact on the people they hurt. Sarah Lynn was the best example for Diane to bring up because you can't deny how lasting that impact is. There's no way to pretend that she'll ever get over it or heal and move on. She's dead. He gets to excuse what he did to Penny and everyone else he's hurt because they seem okay. But they're not okay, any more than he's okay in the face of what's happened to him. Some people have empathy. Bojack just has self-pity. He gets how things hurt HIM, impact HIM, change the course of HIS life. He doesn't get that the damage that he does leaves wounds on other people that are just as invisible as his. His pain is the only pain that is real. His pain is the only pain that matters, whether it's self-inflicted or inflicted by someone else. For me, Season 5 changed the way that I see Bojack. Instead of seeing him as relatable, I can't root for him anymore. I can't excuse him anymore. His guilt over Sarah Lynn and Penny and Herb was his only redeeming characteristic but when he revealed that he genuinely believes that he is the one he has hurt The Most, that's when I stopped rooting for him. I'm VERY curious as to where the writers will go in Season 7. I love this show. I was sad to lose Bojack as an anti-hero but I'm very curious as to what the writers will do with him as a multidimensional, often charming, very real villain.

[@z.m5885]

@@crystalcharee57 AAA YES I've been WAITING for a comment like this! Everyone else is just excusing the shitty things he does

[@jasmintea8825]

Exactly

[@SefniAsheforr]

No and yes. He has hurt others massively, but depression that serious isn't just him being an asshole. It's a legitimate medical condition that needs serious treatment. It's like him vs a worse version of himself constantly. I've never had clinical depression, but I have a sibling that had it pretty bad. In ways he is a victim of a condition that plagues his mental state. But he has a lot of personality defects that also need a giant fucking change.

[@LeLeB37]

Bojack is a victim but he perpetuates his own victimization. He is essentially a man child searching for the nurturing mother he never had in his female cohorts such as Diane and Princess Caroline. His encounters with these women are represent his struggle to take ownership of his past misdeeds, his childhood all while trying to be adult male. He sometimes learns his lessons but at great cost to those who choose to love him (i.e., Sarah Ann, his friend and her teenage daughter in New Mexico, the costar on Philbert). These individuals were enamored with the charming Bojack and so when they are confronted with his darkside it is not well received (New Mexico, Philbert) or it isn't really recognized as being dark (Sarah Ann and the teenage girl from New Mexico). Older more wiser women reject him similar to the rejection he received from his mother which explains why he gravitates toward younger women who don't know better. He can fool them. By saying he's the biggest victim he is continuing his cycle of victimization for which in this case he is ultimately responsible for stopping. Saying this absolves him of responsibility which is child in him crying out to be healed. In order to stop being a victim he will have to face what he has done, accept the outcomes of his action and move on. Until then he will continue down this destructive path victimizing women young and old while claiming to be a victim too.

[@gizmo3702]

Agreed. (Sarah Lynn BTW)

[@skyrogue1977]

Remember in season 4 when he had his mom and Hollyhock living with him, he seemed in a good place, well in ep 10 at least. Then Beatrice dies, and he goes off the rails

[@may.d.a.y]

"my mom is dead. And everything is worse now"

[@gabe_s_videos]

I think that the crux of this conflict is Bojack and Diane having different ideas of what “most” is in this scenario. To Diane, it means “greatest”: Bojack hasn’t suffered the greatest consequences of his actions because he isn’t dead as a result of them like Sarah Lynn. Bojack, meanwhile, is saying that he’s suffered the most “consistently,” which is what you’re saying. He has to live with the burden of being as sick as he is and now he guilt of doing what he does as a result and failing despite his best efforts. The problem is that Diane doesn’t just think that Bojack hasn’t suffered the most, but that he hasn’t suffered AT ALL. To her, Bojack is a privileged boy with first world problems and not someone who is literally mentally ill, and she’s either too proud or too inarticulate to admit that Bojacks problems aren’t just whiny toxic masculinity. Even if he does have to face consequences for his actions, she has to admit that he does these things because he’s sick, as angry as it makes her. To her, admitting that Bojack is sick is like admitting that every other entitled male she’s criticized is a victim, and she’s too proud and traumatized by their actions to recognize that no, Bojack is NOT that kind of person despite the similarities. It kinda goes back to your labels discussion, because both of them have a different mental image when they hear “suffering.”

[@Myacckt]

Totes concur here

[@corntastrophy]

I agree. Bojack may not know the consequences fully he put on others, he does have to live with it. And it is the most crippling feeling and emotion you can have, and you have to deal with it daily. Diane doesn't seem to realize that. She forgets that he has to live with whatever he does for the rest of his life, no matter how much more worse or better it is to deal with.

[@gabe_s_videos]

@@corntastrophy The whole show seems to revolve around characters who have zero understanding of their emotions.

[@chicken0w044]

Diane knows that Bojack is sick, he wanted for him to seek help sooooo many times, he just didn’t seek help, might have wanted it but he never actively searched it, heck he only went to rehab when he almost killed his coworker

[@gabe_s_videos]

@@chicken0w044 Yeah, but she doesn't accept that Bojack has been abused too much to recognize help when it's offered. Also, just telling someone "You need help" isn't going to convince them to get help. If anything, it's even less responsible because it still implies that the person who needs it is capable of getting it themselves when they're clearly not. Also, that rehab place kinda fucked him over by never actually letting him talk to a therapist (yeah, it's a really funny joke, but it's also just kind of an excuse to keep the drama going). Bojack's problem is that he's mentally a child. He shouldn't have to have people hold his hand as he tries to better him self, but he DOES, and nobody is going to do that for a competent 50something year old man. That, to me, is the tragedy that drives this show (and, again, which I think they a little too much for me to actually connect with after a while): the help that Bojack needs is one he can't figure out on his own and which nobody is obligated to help him figure out.

[@Kompatainment]

Back in the 90s i was a very bad person. I'm Bojack, the victim...

[@matti.8465]

Bringing up Sarah lynn was going way too far, i get Diane was mad but that was low. Also Diane seems to have a pretty black and white view of the world sometimes.

[@launawinchester9600]

Exactly!! What I love about this show is that it shows us that people arnt always just black and white bad or good. Bojack is one of the shittiest people in the show, but there are instances (helping hollyhock find her mom, helping the baby seahorse home) have in all honesty been really selfless and generous actions. Mr Peanut Butter is kind to almost everyone he encounters but has made some very questionable descions (cheating on pickles and instead of telling her proposes to her, fraking, and even running for govner against woodchuck). The show makes you question what defines you as a good person and what defines you as a bad one and really in Dianes words we arnt good or bad we just do some good things and some bad things and I think this is a very important lesson to learn.

[@matti.8465]

@voq She has this "problematic!" mentality a lot of the time where she expects purity and perfection from people, even herself.

[@vingram100]

voq That dinner was legendary!

[@brandr7964]

True made me want to beat her up

[@fa1lstar663]

@@brandr7964 Bruhhh. Diane and Bojack are th most alike, and unlike Bojack Diane is actually trying to better herself, to take responsibility. Bringing up Sara Lynn was a bit of a dick move but it was relevant. Bojack took Sara Lynn on that bender, he's the one most responsible for her death, so Diane is not wrong. Bojack is unable to be happy not just because of his upbringing but because of himself. Diane at least took responsibility for her own happiness when she moved away from her family

[@matti.8465]

While i don't think that he has suffered *THE MOST* i think Diane underestimated how much hurt he is, she just finds it easier to see Bojack as the bad man who hurts others and doesn't care (which i don't fully blame her for assuming). Though it's kinda weird how this conversation shows that seeing Penny that one time changed his outlook, he used to believe the lives of those he hurt were completely destroyed, but after seeing how Penny was fine (emphasis on "was") it seems like he started to assume all those people moved on and don't even remember him anymore. I don't know which outlook is worse.

[@JustHANO]

I agree and I usually look at things from more of Diane point of view. It's obvus thats he's atleast a victim of his own actions. He's in a cast with a drug problem for god sake. He got there because he has to live knowing all the shitty things he had done.

[@monsecookies-u7x]

Im sure it wasn’t easy for bojack given that all his life people blame him for their actions and choices. Diane told him he ruins people, his mother constantly told him he ruined her and will ruin everyone around him. I don’t see it as him being selfish when he thinks he ruined someone (as many others who hate bojack with heated passion) but more that he’s genuinely believed that he ruined them.

[@wtrbrns]

I believe the discussion it's not actually relevant. I think Diane doesn't let BoJack fall in "being the victim" because that's not gonna be useful for him. He will use that feeling to feel about himself as a bad person, one that doesn't deserve to be better, so he doesn't have to work to be better. When he says that he suffers from what he has done to others, it just sounds like a cheap way to torture himself even more with it. Okey, yeah, you hurt people, what are you gonna do about it? Guilt without action it's just petty, and it's not useful for wack. Diane doesn't want only for him to care, she wants for him to change. If he cares only to make himself feel shittier and not to modify the way he acts, then what's the point?

[@ursidae97]

The worst thing Bojack ever did was teach Sarah Lynn to also take no responsibility for her actions or happiness. The best thing Sarah Lynn ever did was never pass that on to anyone else because she knows how miserable she really is.

[@indyacampbell4071]

Me before watching video: is he the victim? Me after watching: no. literally no.

[@Gwyllgi]

I refuse to accept society making it seem like people can be victims of themselves. It's just another way for people to deflect blame. Bojack is a victim of his parents, of his grandparents. But his actions are his own.

[@KARIMENT.]

any guesses when season 6 is gonna release? Yeah I'm kinda getting impatient but whatever

[@JessiRose420]

King Hiperon same. Hopefully it’ll come out around August

[@DARKELITE3000]

Same time it always comes out September

[@mindyourbusinessxoxo]

Evan Tansil ahhh, just in time to start my winter depression. This show always thinks ahead. ❤️

[@oscarrivera3398]

In a show like bojack horseman, *EVERYONE* is a victim to the things that they have done regrettably or not. While yes bojack did have a Huge impact on Sarah Lynn’s life it ultimately wasn’t his fault for causing Sarah to die she had the *choice* to cut ties with bojack, she had the *choice* to go to school and become an architect. She had the *choice* to become sober and drug free as she did 7 months prior to her week of ODing on heroin with bojack. Bojack is *NOT* responsible nor was the cause of Sarah Lynn’s death. Bojack’s guilty mindset isn’t the skeletons in his closet:....it’s him being his own worst enemy

[@vickerfinal]

@@greenboots_4661 she wasnt trying to stay sober though, she was just taking a long break to get an increase high. She was planning to do the drugs again regardless

[@YggdrasilAudio]

Well, this aged well.

[@ThomasJefferson-xc8wg]

If you think death is suffering,its Sarah Lynn. If you think death doesnt count,its probably Bojack Horseman.

[@vsatonthebeat4101]

bojack

[@MrShabindigo]

Bojack doesn't believe Bojack is the biggest victim. You can tell from "The View From Halfway Down." Each of the characters at the table are manifestations of his own psyche. What they're saying and arguing about isn't really what they think, but Bojack projecting his own feelings onto them; battling within himself. His manifestation of Sarah Lynn feels she has sacrificed her whole life. He feels like she gave up more than he did. If you go back and look at it, when she said that, the look on his face says it all

[@Penname25]

BoJack has indeed suffered. I don’t know if I would say the most, but either way I don’t think he is the victim. I don’t believe people can be victims of their own actions. Because if they can than technically we’re all victims at some point in our lives.

[@mistertagomago7974]

Couldn't you argue though that hes a victim of his upbringing and that many of his actions are a result of how he was brought up?

[@veasley1215]

Mister Tago Mago that’s where I stand in all this. There’s a saying that goes, “Hurt people _hurt_ people”. A good margin of BoJack’s behavior comes from his pain as a child, raised by a mother who was traumatized herself. It begs the question to what extent are we as individuals responsible for our own actions and decisions, or what can be deemed as a long line of hereditary cause and effect

[@matti.8465]

@@mistertagomago7974 Well, yes and no. Remember what Todd said, Bojack is the problem, his childhood and past contribuited to what he became, but his actions were his. He's not "broken" or "made of poison" those are excuses Bojack uses to justify how he is, so he can think "Oh well, i'm incredibly toxic but that's Bojack Horseman for ya".

[@Delta_Aves]

This kind of dilemma is kind of addressed in Diane's comment in the final episode that "Maybe it's everyone's job to save each other." I believe it addresses the complexity of victimhood and self-responsibility in a simple, but powerful way; that not only are we products of our environments and upbringings, like how Bojack was shaped by his abusive childhood and the toxic influence of Hollywoo, but how we ourselves are, or at least partially, influential in someone else's upbringing, like how Bojack played a huge role in Sarah Lynn's development. Essentially, we can't just say we're a victim of our actions, or someone else's, and deflect any kind of responsibility. We don't exist in a vacuum after all, no matter how much we wish we could, considering how hard it is to trust other people as well as ourselves. And another thing is that we can't always count on society to hold us accountable when we do something wrong, like when Bojack wanted to be punished for strangling Gina in a drug-induced rage, cause that's also, in a way, deflecting our own responsibilities onto someone else, leaving it up to them to decide how terrible our actions really were, which is subjective at best. Truth is; we all need each other, but are afraid to be vulnerable and honest with ourselves.

[@DJET723]

But honestly I want this man to finally be happy and know he’s got it good. I just want him to know he’s doing right in his life but being his narcissistic behavior I find it hard to hold out hope for him

[@noelle2654]

Bojack is a raging alcoholic and drug addict with decades of substance abuse issues and unresolved trauma. It's completely unfair to insinuate that he should've "saved" *anyone* . ESPECIALLY Sarah who had many of the same issues. And it was VERY shitty of Diane to bring up Sarah Lynn, and every shitty thing he's done. Hell, I wouldn't have told her either, considering every scandalous detail she finds out about anyone ends up in a blog post, book, or TV show.

[@notonfire7318]

Even when he starts to feel bad about his actions, he doesn't change his behavior or his attitude. Makes me think he apologizes to the people he's hurt because he wants to escape this guilt instead of actually feeling bad for them

[@limepie3025]

0:32 I didn't know season 6 was out already

[@danielbenton7235]

Is it

[@joshuanaalexander9066]

@@danielbenton7235 not yet coming out October 2019

[@kelldilv]

The reaction Penny had to seeing Bojack isn't evidence that she's fine, just because she can manage moments of calm and seeming normacly. That's evidence that she may have PTSD. That was NOT a reaction of someone with minor resentment for an incident they otherwise 'got over'. Besides, her being a minor and his having significantly more power than a minor, Bojack is absolutely culpable for taking advantage of her. I agree with your thesis, just not this particular analysis of Penny's trauma.

[@mimi-br6ej]

Thank you!! I feel like it's weird no one pointed it out yet, just because you seem "fine" in a moment, in public, doesn't mean you got over the thing that happened to you. And when she met Bojack again she was clearly not fine. It was way more than "she still resents him" like, she was actually scared.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Makes you wonder what Charlotte said/did to Penny after Bojack left, given how traumatised she was when Bojack showed up. I have a feeling the fallout of what happened scarred her more than the act itself.

[@indyacampbell4071]

Exactly! Victims of abuse don't wear it on their sleeves for the rest of their lives but seeing him triggered the memory and she started panicking and saying she was too young. That's not resentment. That's abuse.

[@kudosayala4943]

I fucken hate Penny dude. Yes, bojack was way out of line but dude she was 17.. That's still young af but people act like she was 7 & didn't know anything at all. She didn't even drink or do drugs she was in her perfect state of mind. All of a sudden a year later she has ptsd? Bs. She's just a shit character imo.

[@LuisChavez-ms5ln]

hilarious dude you know what else is destructive? A girl with an obsession who will not take no for an answer

[@rpproductions6241]

Also, this show is actually how I figured out I was grey ace. Todd’s journey through asexuality got my reflecting on my own sexuality and speaking with others and researching and it was comforting to find some answers for myself. I owe this show a lot.

[@noelle2654]

I just wanna point out to all the people saying he was "Sarah Lynn's only father figure!" That that doesn't make Sarah Lynn his responsibility. Clearly this is a hard pill to swallow for you guys, but Sarah Lynn was not his child, he didn't ask for her to be put under his wing. And after she became an adult she was responsible for herself. I'm not saying the things he did weren't shitty. I'm saying that maybe we should be blaming the people who were actually *supposed* to be raising her, rather than BoJack...her Costar.

[@sophiescherk9279]

Another thing to consider though is that we are seeing the consequences of his actions only how it affected him. For example, if the show was called Herb Kazzaz and it centered around mainly his life, we might gain the perspective that it had affected him more than it did Bojack. It is easier to empathize with Bojack and say that he is the biggest victim in various situations because we know his side of the story better.

[@NylaTheWolf]

Honestly the way Diane acted in that scene pissed me off. Cause uh, Diane, you do realize he's the one who has to LIVE with that?

[@blank1507]

If you view yourself as a victim of your own actions, you’ll feel helpless to change them.

[@rpproductions6241]

This show is my coping mechanism. I call it my “therapy away from therapy”. When I miss my father, I watch the eulogy episode. When I’m feeling awful about myself I watch “Stupid Piece of Shit”, etc. Having a show that can both humorously and accurately portray life difficulties helps me. Because it brings these problems to the forefront.

[@veronicapiccinini7956]

That’s the best part of it. You can be both. Both the victim AND the guilty part

[@RockySamson]

Excellent video, SD. When it comes to Sarah Lynn being brought up in the argument between Bojack and Diane, it seems pretty cut and dry in regards to blame, but I've often found myself having to ask this significant controversial question: was Sarah Lynn's death really Bojack's fault? To many, the answer seems obvious since Bojack was a major influence in ruining Sarah Lynn's sobriety, but certain factors may cast doubt on that. First off, all Bojack did was ask Sarah Lynn if she wanted to party. While temptation certainly plays a factor in relapsing, Sarah Lynn immediately begins chugging alcohol from a stash tucked behind her calendar. Anyone could've called and invited Sarah Lynn out and the same would've happened, Bojack just happened to be the one who did so. Secondly, Sarah Lynn even admits at one point that being sober was just a means to make the next high that much more intense suggesting that her relapse really was bound to happen. Lastly, Sarah Lynn's entire household was a drug stash den. LSD paintings, Vicodin covered Vicodin, Crystal Meth ashes, and sweet sweet drywall, all disguised as common household items. She even has truckloads of alcohol delivered directly to her home. Sarah Lynn's relapse really was bound to happen whether or not Bojack was the one to trigger it. However, if anything, Bojack can indeed be blamed for the extent of the bender that claimed Sarah Lynn's life and for providing the "Bojack" that uitimately was... too much, man. All this to say, I don't believe Sarah Lynn's death is as cut and dry as Diane may be suggesting as she places all the blame on Bojack without any examination of Sarah Lynn's own self-destructive behavior, even before Bojack became a factor in her adult life. In summation, suck a dick dumb shits.

[@ShadyDoorags]

I agree with you that it is not a cut and dry manner like Diane makes it out to be. As I said in my Sarah Lynn video, ultimately it isn't Bojack's fault that Sarah Lynn went down the path she did, but he did still have some influence and should recognize that (which he does).

[@RockySamson]

@@ShadyDoorags I agree. Thank you so much for the reply! I love your work. :)

[@Helltown66]

It's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me- Batman Begins

[@cody2756]

"in season 6" can i have your netflix account?

[@ShadyDoorags]

A joke at my expense!? Where's the 'ban account' button!!!

[@MedicineMan55]

The question feels like a false framing to me; an intentional one, spun by Bojack, for both good and bad reasons. Even if Bojack were the biggest victim of his own dysfunction (which would likely be true if Sara Lynn were still alive), it doesn't really absolve him of anything. There isn't any other person who is more responsible for that behavior than Bojack himself. Consequently, his own suffering doesn't absolve him of guilt or blame for what he's done to others. I think the follow up question has to be "why was Bojack asserting his own victimhood?" Was he doing so to defend himself? Or to absolve himself? Probably a bit of both, to be honest. On one hand, Diane was attacking him and did not have good intentions (imo). On the other hand, Bojack has a pattern of denial and avoidance.

[@ShadyDoorags]

It was definitely a defense. Diane was attacking him and his beliefs. Bojack, most likely, didn't even see himself as a solid victim until this conversation. We see in past episodes that Bojack is one to criticize himself for the stuff he does than he is to say "poor me."

[@MedicineMan55]

Only partially a defense imo, Shady. We've also seen Bojack's tendency to do bad things, wallow in self loathing, then repeat. Both Todd and Caroline have called him on this in the past. Todd in particular had a clear view of Bojack's pattern.

[@Ash-eh2vq]

Love your videos man, great analysis and debates.

[@Neroba]

I think on of the problem in next season will be Diane pushing bowjack to keep stuck in his bad actions and don't let him let go of guilt ,like everyone else in the situation did. Diane has always being so critical and has made bowjack face his issue's whith no filter ,whst was good ,but now that bowjack its actually growing out of some issues, the enternal reminder of Diane trough gilbert character and all her harsh commentary and actitude over her believe that he will not change and just get worst again ,it's what gonna make bowjack get worst again. Diane it's shifting slowly from a support to constant reminder and punishment that trigger bowjack guilt. There a point were guilt have to be gone, once you have fixed the problem and learned you have to forget the pain, but if someone just force you to stay guilty you will never move on. It will be interesting show to how what was once was your support can turn in your Downing point.

[@agroed]

Yes, BoJack is the victim. We're all the victim, and that's why it can't be an excuse.

[@HCGSeth]

i don't think ive experienced a more accurate analyzation of a character.. thank you for this and i appreciate it and you altogether. well said sir... well said.. 👏😎

[@EdLongmanTurner]

THE MOST

[@YermTerragon]

But was Sarah Lynn's death actually his fault? She was not a kid, or even a young adult. She was over 30 and made the conscious choice to be sober with the intention of doing drugs again after a long period of time has passed. Her and BoJack both made the decision to do drugs together. In fact, Sarah Lynn was the bigger culprit, hording tons of drugs in her mansion and then ordering multiple cases of alcohol for their drug bender. They both made the same choices and did all the same drugs. She was responsible for her own death.

[@HebiHouse]

Survivors guilt is a nasty thing. The whole, 'I'm alive and she's dead even though we did the same thing' is a nasty obstacle to climb over.

[@evasmiljanic3529]

Sarah Lynn is probably the least guitly Bojack should feel about. She had a ton of stuff going against her, and it's unlikely that even Bojack being a perfect stand in father would have helped, and he was busy with his own shit so he was far from being one. The other people he's hurt, though, are def his fault.

[@yuvalbiger6702]

Eva Smiljanić 17 minutes

[@mysticmon]

@@yuvalbiger6702 i feel like people always forget about this. yes, sarah lynn's death is bojack's fault. in my mind, it absolutely is. how could it not? she was sober, but when bojack called that went down the drain. and when she's dying, her head on bojack's shoulder, what does he do? he makes a fake call from her phone to his, and then waits 17 minutes so that he has a cover for when the ambulance arrives. its said on the show that she died at the hospital. if he had not been thinking about himself first, she most likely would have lived. the truth is bojack cared more about saving his own ass than saving sarah lynn's life, and the thing that hurts me the most is that in the previous scene when they were on the motel room, he said that he loved her. this is honestly unforgivable, I can't see how sarah lynn dying is not his fault.

[@hrtam6165]

@@mysticmon they just want to defend Bojack no matter what because they see themselves in him smh. I'm pretty sure even if he hacks Sarah Lynn to death, they'd defend him xD

[@assyrianprincess3]

As Rick Sanchez once said “You act like prey but your a predator”

[@rosakami1588]

Ok that's a little bit too much dont you think Rick and Morty is a different show all on its own and unlike Rick, Bojack cant make every bad mistake he's ever made ok by inventing a portal gun and have a new reality because of spreading some virus that turned civilians into monsters with the help of Morty.

[@phoenixbreakfastedal1196]

You said "season 6," but this is season 5.

[@sarahhamed4496]

I think that a huge part of what makes us feel that maybe Bojack has suffered THE MOST is the moral injury he has done to himself. When he hurts other people, it's not a terrible maze for those people to come to the conclusion that it's Bojack with the problem and they are not at fault. But Bojack IS at fault and has come around to seeing that. How do you reconcile with hurting yourself over and over by hurting the people you care about? That's more difficult.

[@gascanguts]

Bojack isn't just not the biggest victim, he isn't a victim at all. The fundamental difference between Bojack's real victims and himself, is that all of Bojack's victims suffered consequences they didn't earn, whole Bojack has only the earned consequences to deal with. And he never deals with those consequences, rather depending on feeling bad to let him avoid change. All those people "moved on" bc they aren't treating themselves like victims. Bojack remains because he chooses, and that is not a consequence that has anything to do with a given situation. It's just Bojack. He's not a victim. He's a victimizer, and he uses feeling guilty to avoid that.

[@Kelly-ri8sh]

I love the Mr PB cutout in the background of the fight scene. "Don't tell her a thing!"

[@towerprep45]

Bojack let a woman die to cover his own ass -- *never* forget that.

[@nationalinstituteofcheese3012]

Bojack is treating victim hood like a competition. While he is the biggest victim of himself, he is the common factor in all his problems. Victims are often victims of other people. You can’t control being raped, killed, etc. Bojack chooses to hurt and complains that he hates himself.

[@metanightmare4454]

There's one point Shady didn't mention that I think does contribute in an important way to Bojack's side of the argument, especially regarding Sarah Lynn, and it involves that realistic perspective he was talking about. The flashbacks to Horsin' Around may focus on how Bojack hugely influenced Sarah Lynn's development, but that doesn't mean he was the only one responsible for her outcome. We see that Sarah Lynn's father is absent, but he's possibly dead, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the sake of argument and instead focus on her step-dad, who is implied to have sexually abused her, and her mother who was clearly your typical pageant mom who doesn't care about her beyond what she can squeeze for herself out Sarah Lynn's career, both of which are largely why she became so attached to Bojack as a father-figure in the first place (As a side note, we do see Bojack legitimately trying to give her advice about how to survive in showbiz. Yeah it's really bad advice but he seemed to legitimately think it would be helpful, which is more effort than her family seems to be putting into raising her.). And as cliche as it is, part of the blame surely falls on the spectacle-obsessed Hollywood society that obviously enabled and even pushed her into the reckless Miley Cyrus-esque lifestyle she lived in the present. Lastly, we have to recognize the fact that when Sarah Lynn died, she was a grown woman (specifically in her 30's) capable of making her own choices and who needs to be held accountable for her own actions. Bojack didn't forcibly drag her on that bender, he didn't even really even have to convince her. It's pretty obvious that sooner or later, she would've relapsed even without Bojack. And for those who would say that she can't be held accountable because she's an addict or a product of her environment, then by that logic, we can't rightly hold Bojack accountable for his actions either because both of those statements apply to him as well. I'm not saying that Bojack is innocent, but Diane is clearly wrong to pin all the blame on him for what happened to Sarah Lynn (that isn't to say that it's out of character for the ultra-intersectional Diane of season 5, who has repeatedly shown that she will do absolutely anything to win an argument, no matter how underhanded. I'm just saying that she's being extremely unfair). Given the fact that he's only partially responsible and that she would've had a pretty messed up life without him, I can't honestly say whether she suffered more from Bojack than Bojack did since he actually feels 100% of the guilt, as if he IS the only one responsible, and we don't know how much of that is actually deserved. To be clear, Herb and Penny weren't totally his fault either, as there were other players to consider in those stories too, but it's most relevant for Sarah Lynn. I think there are two main reasons this wasn't addressed in the show. The first, and more understandable reason was that there were apparently a number of fans who used Bojack to justify their own similar bad actions, operating under the belief that his behavior, and thus their own, was okay and acceptable. The second, more troubling, reason boils down to the creators' political agendas, but I really don't want to get into politics so I'll leave that alone, but they both basically amount to the creators feeling that they needed Bojack to completely lose that argument in no uncertain terms, regardless of whether it was really giving him a fair shake or not. All things considered and with the limited information we have, I'm just gonna go in the middle and say they're both major victims of Bojack's and to a lesser extent Sarah Lynn's actions.

[@ShadyDoorags]

As stated in my Sarah Lynn video, I do not see Bojack as being responsible for Sarah Lynn's death. However, he does and I think his perspective is very important since he is the one arguing that he is a victim. Though I do agree with your ultimate conclusion that the creators wanted Bojack to lose that fight. I've made it clear in past videos that I'm no fan of season 5, as I feel a lot of story was sacrificed for a forced tone and message. I don't want that opinion leaking into objective analysis of the rest of the show, though, as I feel that would ruin the flow of the videos, so I've been doing my best to minimize that in future scripts.

[@ChasingBooks]

I really wouldn't say that Bojack feeling bad doesn't really hold water for me for the reasons listed below: tw: references to murder and rape below * * * Feeling bad doesn't really indicate that one is the true victim of a given situation nor a sign of even true remorse or corrective action in any meaningful sense. To point to one very extreme example, Paul Michael Stephani (serial killer) cried repeatedly after each of his kills (calling the police in tears even) and reported feeling bad about his murders, but he still didn't stop after his first victim. Albert DeSalvo directly apologized to one of his rape victims and left her alive (and showed signs of feeling at least troubled by the harm he'd done), but not before holding her hostage and abusing her. I'm not saying Bojack is as much of a danger to others as these two, but he has a pattern of extremely immoral and, as of Season 5, dangerous behavior that calls into question whether we can say that he is still the biggest victim of his own actions. Regardless of his circumstances, regardless of whether or not Bojack is a victim, he still won't stop victimizing others repeatedly, and that's what matters. Let's not forget that he's guilty of aggravated physical assault (yes, aggravated physical assault can be done intentionally or recklessly), almost to the point of causing permanent injury or worse, to Gina. By his own admission, he almost slept with Penny, an impressionable 17 year-old (just barely the age of consent in NM and a year younger than the age of consent in CA). Neither Gina nor Penny had any real choice (being so much older than her and a role model for her, Bojack was in a position of power over Penny and should have had the restraint to not go after a girl who, at the time, was younger than Hollyhock was when he first met her) in being victimized by Bojack while Bojack CHOOSES to position himself the victim of his own actions. Is this really the thinking of someone expressing genuinely selfless remorse or is he using sympathy to shift his own role in his bad decisions for his own self-serving reasons? The answer need not be exclusively one or the other. Above all else, actions speak louder than words or feelings. He can say he feels bad all he wants, but if his actions never improve, then why should we trust the authenticity of his feelings? Does he want to improve and grow, or does he just want an excuse to never work on himself and blame everything on his past and how he's forever broken? To me, it's reminiscent of how when some kids don't want to do a given chore they whinge and pretend that they, "JUST CAN'T DO IT!" in the hope that their parents will get fed up and just let them off the hook. At this point, if he knows he is harmful to others and continues to actively avoid finding ways to improve himself despite absolutely having the means to do so, then is that not stronger evidence of him being, not the primary victim, but the primary enabler of his behavior? He says he feels bad all the time, but if he feels so bad, then why doesn't he go to a therapist? That seems to be pretty damning evidence that Bojack doesn't want to get better throughout the majority of the show. Even if that reason is not malicious and is simply because he's afraid, then that still means he's selfish enough to let his own comfort take precedence over the feelings and safety of the friends he's harmed in the past, present, and future. It's easy to give all sympathy to Bojack or cast him as the primary victim of his own actions when he's the protagonist, and we never get to see the pain Penny actually went through before she recovered and what Gina is currently going through behind the scenes. It's shown repeatedly that Diane and Bojack, in some ways, are TOO alike and, thus, bring out the worst in each other. In other words, if Diane and Bojack are VERY much alike in how they process their emotions (and rely on each other as emotional outlets), and if Diane has a tendency to fetishize her own sadness, then what does that say about the always self-pitying Bojack? If Diane is criticized for making herself out to the wronged party even in contexts where that may not be the case to the degree she thinks she is, then why let Bojack off the hook for doing that same thing except worse for years?

[@ShadyDoorags]

You've added the word "true" in front of the word "victim" which suggests you're not going by the definition of what it means to be a victim, but rather have added a condition in which one is a "superior version of a victim."

[@ChasingBooks]

When I say, "true," I am referring to the context in which Bojack suggested he has suffered the most from his own actions; he is implying that he is the true victim of his actions (especially when he goes as far to suggest that none of these women even remember what he did). I'm going by Bojack's rhetoric. I'm not trying to say who is the superior victim here. I'm suggesting that Bojack may not be looking for redemption, but validation. That may change with Season 6, but we don't yet know. Remember when Sarah Lynn said, "we've all done shitty things... most of us aren't as proud of it as YOU seem to be?" To me, that line seems pretty revealing regarding what the writers are trying to convey with Bojack in my eyes. He goes back and forth between wearing his mistakes like a mark of shame and as a means of exoneration/validation ("anyone got a worse story? didn't think so, BITCHES!"). I also ask, which is a more sincere apology: "I'm sorry. I was wrong," or, "I'M SORRY! I'M HUMAN GARBAGE. You must HATE me. I'm sorry. I'm such a loser. I can't stop ugh.....?" Most of Bojack's apologies veer toward the latter, which is why I find it odd to say that he's suffered the most because of his bad decisions. His responses seem so performative, so self-centered that they reveal a character who wants to be forgiven right away instead of putting the work in to earn that forgiveness (look how responds when Herb rejects his apology). If he refuses to process and learn from his decisions, then the problem goes deeper than, "Bojack is the primary victim because his mistakes isolate him more and more from others." I say this because there are people who do forgive him, give him another chance multiple times throughout the show, and yet he continues to do nothing with that. There is a line where empathy ends and exasperation at someone failing to avoid obvious pitfalls after past lived experiences begins. I hope this illustrates why I don't see Bojack as the primary victim of his decisions. When HE suggests that, it comes across as manipulative and devoid of empathy for those he's harmed. In my mind, if he is a victim of anything, it's not his decisions (to me, they're a side effect of the roots of the proble), and the victims of his actions are... well, the people he's hurt (which is now like... all but 2 major characters on the show not counting his family). Instead, I see him as a victim of his endlessly self-pitying, non-stop victim-complex, his ardent refusal to change, substance abuse, and his untreated chronic depression.

[@widowkeeper4739]

If I've learned anything from many long hours in therapy, it's that there is no prize for winning dick-measuring contests about who is suffering "most." It's not fair to ourselves and what we go through as human beings (or horses). People and situations are so much more complicated and nuanced than that. BoJack IS a victim of his own actions, and he HAS suffered SIGNIFICANTLY because of them. That is ENOUGH to earn our empathy/sympathy for what he's gone through in his life. He also recognizes that and is actively looking for a solution. He gets credit where it's due for that too, even if we do not forgive him because of the things he's done or especially want him involved in our lives. Many people never get that far in their lives or have enough heart to give that much of a damn about wanting to change as BoJack has shown. So, good for him. He's got my sincere and deep respect for that even if I personally knew him, I wouldn't trust him or want him in my life.

[@Lynxan]

This comes down to the saying 'He is his own worst enemy.'

[@Shawn_Babcock]

Diane in the middle of season 5 really got on my nerves. I get that she wanted BoJack to admit to her what he did to Penny, but she went about it in the wrong way. And the argument at the premier was the worst part of it. It really was the last straw for BoJacks stress in that season and it’s what made him fully go off the deep end in his pain med addiction. She did redeem herself in the finale though when she actually made BoJack seek help through rehab

[@zarephal4998]

Diane was still a bitch in s5 and bojack did nothing wrong to Penny and Charlotte came in the boat thinking that they were or about to have sex but bojack turned Penny down but he just blames himself then the ruined character Diane was trying to force Bojack to admit to doing something to Penny and Charlotte wants to murder Bojack for a misconception

[@hrtam6165]

@@zarephal4998 bojack literally grooms a 17 year old, and leaves Sarah Lynn go die because he was worried he'd get caught. But Diane is the bitch?🙄

[@jacquesachille7365]

I fucking love your outro dude! Classy as fuck

[@cheesecakelasagna]

Damn. Your script is always so good like how.

[@ShadyDoorags]

Knowing how to write a college level essay combined with wanting to entertain people.

[@cheesecakelasagna]

@@ShadyDoorags You've just inspired me to fix my my sentence form (is that even a correct term?). How do I do know?

[@jonwolf137]

Hey Shady, since season 6 is just around the corner why don't you do a video top 10 sadass or funniest or powerful moments in BoJack Horseman season 1 through 5? I think that'd be really fun to see from you.

[@poisonpenfairy2844]

Love this series, and enjoy the analysis, but I don't agree with this definition of 'victim'. 'Being a person that suffers' and 'being a victim' are not the same thing. The key difference between 'victim' and 'consequences' is a lack of control. Bojacks starts with the perspective that they are the same, and the video feels like it's taking that as the actual definition of victim, but you are not a victim if you (reasonably) brought your own suffering on yourself. Bojack is a victim of his parents abuse because he has no control over how he was treated (and even if he could control it e.g. by behaving perfectly that would be an unreasonable standard and an unreasonable consequence, so still a victim) But he is not a victim of his suffering because he had control over the actions that caused that suffering

[@claremcgraw9048]

Bojack is unhappy for a lot of reasons and a lot of his issues are the result of his toxic and abusive family. However, at 50-54 years old, he definitely fucks himself over compulsively, and in the wake of his own self-destructive behavior he takes people down with him who (especially Sarah Lynn) suffered more than he did as a result of his actions. It can only go so far.

[@bio-weaponn5576]

Given how the show is basically over possibly due to a unionization backfiring I just got to say the whole Bojack having some sort of power over women in the last season from where I see it is total bullcrud. It's pretty obvious Sarah Lynn was obviously looking for any excuse to get drunk and/or high, Penny Carson was the one coming onto Bojack twice, and any other female Bojack has hurt gets over it pretty dang quick and never lets Bojack influence them again. If anyting women seem to more likely be Bojack's krytonite seeing as how he feels eternal guilt and hardly ever allows himself happiness. Heck his own mom practically hardwired that self resentment, Angela Diaz manipulated Bojack into firing Herb Kazzaz, and just as Bojack seem to finally be turning his life around teaching acting lessons BOOM here comes Paige Sinclair ultimately destroying that opportunity forever. Bojack may not have the moral high ground but the one thing that upsets me more than seeing Bojack doing really bad stuff is seeing other characters do really bad stuff and getting away with it scot-free, remember when Todd made that dangerous as hell amusement park and cost a lot of women their jobs via sex robot, where's that idiot's eternal guilt?

[@codymerrell976]

Wonder what Bojack will be like when he's released from Rehab in Season 5 ?

[@Taima]

...season 5?

[@soulripple]

Man the endings to your videos always give me chills

[@litchqueenasenath5995]

In season 2 Penny was the aggressor in the situation, and good for her for having the gumption to try, but she was 17 and Bojack was 50. He knew better, and it is 100 percent Bojack's fault that Charlotte wants to kill him

[@bearblyat9804]

Bojack will suffer/be the victim forever because he say sorry to almost everyone just in time but sarah she dead he can't say sorry to dead people

[@shadowslayer40]

Bojacks got borderline personality disorder

[@shaokhan4421]

Such a good show. Maybe it’s cause I have had experienced depression but I seem to find I relate to this show WAY more than my friends.

[@bloodymary9404]

Sarah Lynn is an open wound that will never heal for Bojack. He truly did love her in his own way. Even with their brief fling I think he still only thought of her platonically. He saw himself in her. He was ignored and neglected as a child so was Sarah Lynn. He did ignore her and brush her off as a child when they were both on Horsing Around but that is how he was raised to treat children given how his parents treated him. Unlike other people in his life he never completely cut Sarah Lynn out of his life. Even if it was for selfish reasons he would always check up on her. When it was revealed that he waited 17 minutes before calling for help after she had overdosed he himself was in a dark place and even though he called himself from her phone as an alibi I imagine for the first 15 minutes he just kept repeating Sarah Lynn? When you're in shock time passes differently a minute can seem like an hour and an hour can seem like a minute. I think he fully intended for the drug bender they were going on to kill both of them together. Sarah Lynn wanted to die while she was still young and relevant so that she would be remembered as a star forever and Bojack didn't want to die alone.

[@MrMiddleWick]

Platonic feeling by definition excludes sex. BoJack's relation with Sara did include it. You can't say that it was an exception, it's like saying that someone's vegetarian with the exception of eating meat, or more on-topic with the show, it's like saying that someone is clean with the exception of getting wasted.

[@bloodymary9404]

I think it had more of a real life situation to it. When a boy and girl are good friends they often hear oh you two should date you get along so well. It is heard so often that they eventually convince themselves to think it is a good idea. Just like how Sarah Lynn and Bojack talked themselves into a fling by saying that they were both unrelated adults. However after you try it you realize it was a horrible idea and you don't really feel that way about the person. It often ruins friendships sadly but, Bojack and Sarah Lynn remained friends.

[@birthdayfruitecake8158]

I'm sorry but even over a year later the insert of "THE MOST" kept putting a smile on my face until I couldn't help but giggle out loud. : )

[@senjaoneill4861]

Once upon a time he was the victim

[@thecrookedanimator]

By an extent, he still is. He can't erase the harm is parents caused to him and how he is a victim of them, but being a victim doesn't negate somebody being a victimizer.

[@claudiaspin6042]

It's kind of superficial to say that Herb and Penny got over or forgot what BoJack did, just because they don't show it in everyday life. Of course BoJack is one of the main victims, but he is not THE victim.

[@ShadyDoorags]

It's a good thing no one said that.

[@claudiaspin6042]

@@ShadyDoorags you did. Do I have to quote?

[@ShadyDoorags]

@@claudiaspin6042 I just rewatched the video, I never said that. In fact, I specifically point out that Herb and Penny both still had bitter feelings towards Bojack, they just didn't let those feelings control their lives like he did.

[@DivinelyOdder]

I personally relate to this scene on a spiritual level. And you hit all the right points, that really drove this whole video home. I personally feel like a victim of my own past actions.. I wouldn't say that I'm "the victim" or have suffered "the most." But then again I would, all for the exact reason you mentioned. And I just want to point out that.. if I didn't feel like one of the victims towards/through the people I hurt.. then I wouldn't have realized through my guilt; how wrong my actions were, and overall wouldn't have learned to change and be the better person I am today.

[@huwetahabdullahi2]

Hey dude I know you probably won't be able to read this but I really appreciate your work deeply because you're able to explain different points of views on different shows and you're able to get me thinking, "what does that really mean then" and I really appreciate that I usually don't type up comments but I felt the need to this time.

[@SilentTristerosEmpire]

This brings up an interesting question for me. Is Bojack fundamentally incapable of not hurting those people he lets into his life? He wants people in his life. He *needs* them in his life. But because of his upbringing he has no way of showing true affection towards anyone. It's like he stumbles through peoples' lives like a bull in a china shop. They get close to him, he doesn't know how to properly reciprocate, so ends up either pushing them away or latching on to them like an alien face hugger. He uses them for his own needs, not because he's necessarily a "bad" person, but because they being part of his life fills a gaping chasm in his soul. Once he realizes that he's hurt them, he does suffer, because he does care about them, possibly more than he would ever admit to himself.

[@ChefPomme]

This conversation is the one that actually made me dislike Diane far more that I disliked Bojack. She really kinda hit him where it hurts, not because she cares, but because she could. It kinda made me realize that throughout the entire show, she only does things because she can. Be it so she can feel superior to the people around her, or that she doesn't have to feel the guilt of her actions, whatever.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Yeah, that's the thing that makes me hate Dianne, she's like Bojack minus the self awareness that she is a piece of shit. Bojack does shitty things but he owns up to them, Dianne spins things to make herself look good and will happily contradict her own moral values if it benefits her. She's miserable when bad things happen to her, but never accepts it's her fault when they do.

[@ChefPomme]

@@PlanetZoidstar Exactly! She's beyond selfish.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@ChefPomme I'm glad you agree. My take on what really separates Bojack and Dianne is what they value most. Bojack's greatest regrets and failings are when he hurts other people or feels he's let them down. He regrets never having a loving relationship with his mother. He regrets not sticking up for Herb and not being strong enough to face him after he got fired. He regrets destroying his friendship with Charlotte (and scarring Penny). He regrets contributing to Sarah Lynn's death and not being able to save her. He not being a good father to Hollyhock (but is happy that they leave on good terms), and has a panic attack when he fears she might die from what his mother did to her. That is what defines the things Bojack regrets most, the people he fails. Dianne on the other hand regrets when things don't go her way. Every setback she has hurts because she feels she deserves better than she got. She doesn't do things for the good of others and doesn't feel bad for THEM if she hurts them, Dianne feels bad when SHE gets hurt. She breaks down because she sees Mr. Peanutbutter hold Pickles the way he used to hold HER. She will readily comprimise her values to get what SHE wants (like when she gets a gun despite being anti-gun). She verbally assaults Bojack because what he said made HER feel bad about herself. TLDR: Bojack is a Self-Loathing Fatalist, Dianne is a Depressed Narcissist.

[@spookyho5994]

0:53 I thought you were gonna add " Let’s find out!" 😂

[@wjbushjr]

Honestly speaking, Sarah Lynn is an adult. A recovering addict is still an adult, I think we infantile people too much. It wasn’t Bojack who forced Sarah by gun point to do drugs again. I can honestly say that in such very sadden regard, Bojack is a victim of himself and that’s it. Sarah is a victim of how hollywood fucks the youth up clearly but one of the main things we don’t realize is that Sarah is an adult at the end of the day. So really, play stupid games win shitty prizes. She knew that hanging around a guy like Bojack was stupid to do. She knew that people like Bojack are the reason why people die from overdose. But yet, she doesn’t adult up. Same goes double for Bojack. He knows that all this shit is bad for you. And to get help he needs therapy. But he doesn’t do so. He runs from it and he throws the problem to someone else to deal.

[@fluff975]

the most important thing in this scene isn't whether or not bojack is actually the biggest victim (which is, to your point, very arguable) it's the fact that HE thinks he is, despite all the others. this is his biggest problem, and diane's main problem w him

[@xlro8f853]

Bojack is not a bad horse person; bad people never think about if their deeds are right or wrong, even if it’s shoved in their face, bad people never think about the folk they hurt, Bojack is probably clinically depressed with a lot of ammo or he just has a lot of ammo

[@DJET723]

Finally SOMEONE is asking the right questions

[@ShadyDoorags]

Tired of people asking the left questions?

[@ComicWriter-ml3qt]

To an extent I can see what bojack is saying but it does come off as very narcissist for him to see others as the better party and himself as the most suffering victim. I can still what he’s saying though. But feeling bad about what you did does not make up for the bad things. Redeeming yourself isn’t that easy. At the same time, while I can say bringing up Sarah Lynn definitely brought bojack back to earth, I can’t say it sits right with me these two characters having such a venomous exchange of words. And bojack definitely could’ve explained the penny situation better

[@radiocoffee7700]

People consider Penny the aggressor? Why? That's so messed up.

[@ShadyDoorags]

Because Penny was old enough to legally consent, she pushed Bojack even after he said 'no' multiple times. Personally, I consider Bojack more at fault because, in his mind, Penny was a minor even if by law she wasn't, but the other perspective certainly makes sense.

[@codymerrell976]

While I agree like some Fans Hope Bojack Cleans Up His Act but your right Bojack is His Own Bad Guy and causes Chaos to Both Himself and to His Surroundings to People that's close to Bojack But again Hope Bojack Cleans Up His Own Act

[@joehill4094]

I think the biggest problem is to assume someone cannot be a victim and the problem at the same time