Bojack Horseman - Penny vs Bojack

[@jacobk6371]

I also believe that because Bojack is portrayed as an animal, we often forget that he is at least 50+ years old. He isn’t just older than penny, he is SIGNIFICANTLY older than her.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Old enough to be her father or even grandfather

[@Varooooooom]

Possibly triple her age OOOF

[@MrIansmitchell]

​@@Varooooooom Bojack was born on January 2, 1964. The episode is set in July of 2015. He's 51, which is three times older than Penny.

[@84blizzle]

Lol Sometimes I forget they're animals. I mean we're debating a deer and a horse having sex for fuck sakes.

[@romerobert2981]

@@84blizzle I think in there universe everyone is interbreedable

[@unoccupied2224]

what makes the situation worse for me is Bojack rejecting penny, then getting rejected by charlotte and then accepting penny afterwards almost as if penny was the next best thing. I know that's probably not the main point but I found it really gross, especially after not taking responsibility for allowing a teen to get alcohol poisoning and only caring about the implication it has on his life.

[@emankhurram]

Its even weirder that he thinks she looks so much like her mom...Its like by "being" with her he will be living out his fantasy of "being" with charlotte - also take into account charlotte was only a little older than penny when Bojack met her...- so so SO gross

[@SXJAYSX]

While this makes Bojack grosser in motivation it doesn't really affect the bottom line or morality or the situation. When Penny sees Bojack at her college and she's like I was a child I didn't know any better. I rolled my eyes. Yes Bojack is in the wrong for all the obvious reasons. But Penny taking no personal accountability for the situation, even years later, is ridiculous.

[@OJ-McMuffins]

@@SXJAYSX as a child thats not her responsibility cuz shes was yknow. a minor. Teens do/say stupid things All the time in an effort to seem older/more mature. It always lies on adults to act like adults and say no.

[@bellarose1562]

He’s a selfish loser I’d say 🤷‍♀️

[@SXJAYSX]

@@OJ-McMuffins she was not a child. She was 17. A senior prom high school kid. In a few months a legal adult that has to own to her mistakes. As I said Bojack is in the wrong for the obvious reasons but she is not just a little innocent girl. Kids that age are sexually active and get pregnant all the time and then they are forced to deal with the consequences of their actions and to me this is no different.

[@radhiadeedou8286]

Penny's parents have some responsibility in the situation, who let's their daughter go to prom with a 50 yo stranger

[@slothers8685]

Well they were living with each other for 2 months, so they probably had a bit of trust in him

[@BlitzoSuck33]

@@slothers8685 you’d trust your kids with someone after 2 months? Big yike 🥴🥴🥴

[@dimanvoltair993]

@@BlitzoSuck33 Penny knew him from before

[@slothers8685]

@@BlitzoSuck33 i didnt say id have trust in them i said they probably had a bit of trust in him

[@kiwibanana7590]

Plus, that type of behavior is learned.

[@LilacSongx217x]

When I was subbing at a high school many years ago, a senior tried to ask me out. I IMMEDIATELY shot him down, telling him that “I don’t date children”, hoping that would be the end of it. He replies “I’m not a child.” Afterwards, I sternly said, “No,” & he finally left. He was 18 & I was 27. As an adult & a teacher, I know students don’t have enough real-world experience to know better.

[@chasedbyvvolves9256]

I'm pretty sure children aren't allowed to join the army or drive.

[@nimboppable123]

@@chasedbyvvolves9256 Wha?? In the states people as young as 15 can start driving. 15 is definitely a child.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

Adults are just grown up Children.

[@Coffeebean1985]

ann sure they are, you can use them but you still know what morons they are for the most part - it's why they can't drink booze until much later.

[@cry_stain]

good on you for being responsible and shutting that behavior down, its scary to think about how a worse person than you would've taken advantage of the situation

[@zephyr3693]

I don't think Bojack even actually liked Penny, he liked that he saw her mother in her face. Penny was young, unattached, and looks strikingly like her mom, which reminded Bojack of the Charlotte he used to know before she moved away. I think that's what he was really looking for when he went to new mexico.

[@sushimomo6384]

i think he liked her- the way he talked to her about teenage stuff and was actually engaged showed it. i feel like he enjoyed helping with small teen problems since his problems were so much worse

[@alllittlethingzz]

True he did only go to New Mexico cause he thought Charlotte rejected him and then he went to take Penny on her offer which is disgusting and not to mention he did but underage teens beer.

[@tempejkl]

@@alllittlethingzzNo? He went to New Mexico because he was lost. (not literally, figuratively). Anyway, underage teens drink all the time. I would only be concerned if it was moonshine or something. Honestly, you kinda have to put yourself if bojack shoes, would you stay at a hospital with 17 year olds, then getting yourself into prison?

[@tulipplant9317]

That's so grooosssss 😭😭😭😭

[@starrsmith3810]

He didn’t. He literally only took her up on the offer because Charlotte rejected him. So basically he was gonna use Penny.

[@nataliemosdell5919]

You're missing a layer. Bojack took Penny up on her offer not because she seduced him further, but because he wanted to make himself feel better after Charlotte's rejection. It was irresponsible and entitled of him to act on this feeling, and even more so to take advantage of a delicate situation for his own gratification.

[@porcupinesauce3872]

But penny pestering him for sex while bojack was in a vulnerable position isnt?

[@porcupinesauce3872]

@red cherry I don't understand how age plays a role in this

[@porcupinesauce3872]

@red cherry she's 17. legal age in mexico. I think its a bit myopic to think someone is in a more vulnerable state just because of age.

[@SXJAYSX]

While this makes Bojack grosser in motivation it doesn't really affect the bottom line or morality or the situation. When Bojack sees here again at her college and she's like I was a kid I didn't know any better. I rolled my eyes. Bitch, you were 17 and did research on legal age. Yes, Bojack was in the wrong for all the aforementioned reasons, but she, specially years later, needs to be able to take some personal accountability as well. She made a mistake she regrets, and instead of owning it, it's easier to be like Bojack you monster.

[@gentiballazhi2878]

I completely agree with you Natalie. He was just looking for sexual gratification after Charlotte’s rejection. He knew what he was doing, he’s just ashamed that he was caught

[@LauraGrrrr5370]

I thought Penny's (and Pete Repeat's) recollections of the prom were a fantastic illustration of how easily adults can forget that older, articulate teenagers are still essentially children who have spent their entire lives doing whatever an adult says. Bojack didn't "practically force" anybody to drink the bourbon he bought, and the kids already had alcohol with them; but he also had absolutely no right to buy it for them. And him buying it for them lent it a certain authority. Same with Penny making a pass at Bojack (which is something he should've told Charlotte about right away). He got it half-right when he told her "You don't know what you want". Teenagers do know what they want. They just don't know what's best for them.

[@kiwibanana7590]

Well about that pete repeat part. I am a teenager and if an adult bought me alcohol I would absolutely feel forced to drink it because "they are the adult, they know what's best" and "if I reject it I'll come off as rude"

[@LauraGrrrr5370]

@@kiwibanana7590 Exactly. The fact that Bojack bought them alcohol lent it a certain authority: an adult bought it for us, it must be okay to do this, this is how to be grown-up and mature.

[@princessmarlena1359]

Makes sense.

[@Impalingthorn]

Probably the best worded this entire situation could be. People lose the plot with this episode a lot when they focus too hard on chastising Bojack. Bojack is only one cog in the machine that is this episode; the man certainly made a huge mistake, but the circumstances surrounding him were perfect for pushing him towards that situation. He had been drinking, he had just been rejected by someone he met earlier in life than he should have and now had no possibility of ever having a life with and is justly depressed, a girl he has turned away a couple of times is once again offering it up to Bojack and he is inebriated enough that Penny could pass as Charlotte, then add on top of this that Bojack has known Charlotte for a LONG time and Penny is probably more evocative of when Charlotte was younger and it all makes sense. And these are just the circumstances leading to the situation itself, Penny herself is not blameless; forget age, she is technically legal here and I personally think the "They're too young to consent" argument is flawed when considering situations where someone older is being aggressed upon by a younger person, ESPECIALLY in situations where that younger individuals can effectively frame the situation however they want. Penny, in this situation, has come onto Bojack multiple times and is doing this when he is at his weakest while Charlotte has completely pushed him away and already made it clear that he has to leave. Once again, let's not forget, Bojack's life is mired with "What if" regrets; I think a LOT of people can relate to that when considering temptation of any kinda, having things you wish you had done and regrets over not participating or doing something. This is crucial. THAT was Charlotte to Bojack and now the spitting image of her younger self is staring him in the face tempting him. I reiterate, I'm not saying any of this is justified or made right, I am merely empathizing with the situation. People tend to paint this episode pretty black and white and I not only think that's wrong and misses the point of both the episode and the series at large (Change is slow and gradual, not a light switch you can flick on and off and the series frequently pushes Bojack back on his personal growth for better or worse), but ignore the external factors entirely. I mean, assuming we're all out of highschool here, I think most of us can look back at someone we used to have a crush on who we still have vague or maybe serious feelings for that were never realized. When we picture them, we'll probably imagine them as they were rather than as they are now assuming they are not an active element in your life anymore. That doesn't make you a predator, and usually seeing the person for the first time in 5-? Years results in a brutal dose in reality. We were familiar with them, we were THERE physically to experience our time with them, and now I pose a question: If you, with the experience and knowledge you have now, could go back and do things differently, maybe speak to them, tell them how you felt, would you? If yes, do you think that would make you a creep? Now throw alcohol on top of that and think back to your absolute worst, most depressing mindset you've ever been in and pose the same question. It's not bad to admit that saying "No" to that proposal would be difficult, but it is important we do say "No" and accept reality as it is, grow from it, and move on. Bojack simply fumbled the ball and the consequences were game changing.

[@tessmiller7943]

Last two sentences are exactly it

[@yoannfleytoux5917]

[@edwinmizen8330]

[@Josuh]

[@WobblesandBean]

[@randyrichmondiii3415]

[@randyrichmondiii3415]

@@Josuh You deserve a sub

[@nimboppable123]

I'd say Penny still being hung up over Bojacks behavior in S6 and framing him as a predator makes perfect sense. She did instigate it, this is true-but Bojack also stalked her in That's Too Much, Man! and reopened those wounds, and likely planted some seriously insidious seeds in Pennys head. How long has he been stalking her for? Did he try to meet her with nefarious intentions? We, as the audience, know the answers to those questions, but Penny doesn't.

[@frankunodostres473]

that's a good point. I still think it was weird that (as far as we know) she never told her mom that she was the instigator. it is a complicated situation

[@itsblitz4437]

@@frankunodostres473 why she never tell her mom?

[@typhlosionisbest]

@@itsblitz4437 Pressure and lack of accountability are the simple answers to this. It plays directly into how parents teach their children to lie by getting too angry at them too often. If she doesn't mention what blame she has, then no blame is on her in her parents' eyes. It takes a good amount of will and integrity to interrupt someone's tirade of "I can't believe they would victimize you like this!" with "It was my fault, too." Penny's friends knew about what happened with Bojack, too, and while I'm not sure about the dynamic within their group, I don't think her friends would think to ask what she was doing when she was wronged. Even if she were to try to tell someone where she went wrong, it's likely that they'd tell her "No, it doesn't matter what you did, this shouldn't have happened to you." While it encourages the victim to not fall into a cycle of self-hatred through blaming themselves for the incident, it can also discourage accountability if overdone. That would vary from person to person. Some people are malicious and run with that, and some people understand the importance of that phrase.

[@aivilo9892]

You know, that actually explains why she would even *have* trauma in my eyes, because like, she WAS the instigator and that's on HER, Bojack's crime was not being firm enough in saying no when she refused to take his answer. So im sitting here wondering how she would be scarred enough to have panic attacks when the worst thing that happened was being ready to do the deed anyway. From Bojacks side I can see why he's so freaked out about it, he was about to sleep with one of his oldest friend's daughter, and Charlotte was Very clear with her severing their relationship and why, Penny would have gotten a stern lecture and probably grounded for a few months( assuming Penny even admited that she was the one to ask). But the idea that she was really freaked out by him showing up to her campus unannounced while stoned out of his mind was where the trauma came from (the amount of implications that could paint with only that much context can paint a DARK picture) makes more sense.

[@helihollow]

i believe charlotte and penny had a conversation about what happened. even though penny did instigate the situation, her mother acknowledged that it wasn’t her fault bc bojack was supposed to be the adult in that situation. penny wasn’t thinking about how her actions could effect her in the future while in the act, but having a discussion about it opened her eyes about how fucked up it was. that’s why penny no longer tried to defend bojacks innocence bc she grew up and realized he wasn’t.

[@lavenderhue1785]

Shady: "so yeah I agree with the most popular opinion" me: *sees how long of the video is left* *wait a minute*

[@ShadyDoorags]

In the original script, I wrote a joke about how the audience was checking the time of the video at that moment. Kinda sad I left it out now.

[@UP4NONE]

@@ShadyDoorags Add it in and put tge video back out

[@UP4NONE]

*the

[@davidkuklin995]

@@ShadyDoorags I Checked too LOL

[@84blizzle]

Lol I did the same thing.

[@baileyjohnson7380]

Honestly anytime this moment is brought up I think about what was going through Charlotte's head. Think about it, a guy she new and even probably had a crush on thirty years ago was going to sleep with her teenage daughter.

[@homosexualitymydearwatson4109]

Charlotte’s the only one I feel bad for in this scenario

[@alishamuhidin3604]

@@homosexualitymydearwatson4109 what about penny lol or her dad??

[@estebangutierrez160]

Who could blame Charlotte for cutting ties with Bojack completely and forever, and threatening to kill him as well.

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

@@alishamuhidin3604 Nobody talks about the dad, guy liked Bojack enough to let him stay at his house for two months. I do feel like Penny, while ultimately the victim, did have a hand in what happened and doesn't acknowledge it and puts 100% of the blame on Bojack, probably as a way to cope with the trauma.

[@tempejkl]

@@aguywithalotofopinions412I’m sorry but who the fuck gets trauma from trying to sleep with a 50 year old man? Nothing happened. I could see it being a source of anxiety, but it’s not actual trauma.

[@levib5202]

“Just because a girl knows how to imitate a woman, does NOT mean she's ready to do what a woman does! I mean, you're the grown-up here. If a kid is experimenting and says something flirtatious, you ignore it, you don't encourage it.” -Hard Candy I appreciate you for acknowledging Bojack is at fault but I really believe that it isnt Penny's responsibility, period. It doesn't matter if she initiates it or not. The fact that she was given the message at some point that a relationship like that was acceptable is an issue. As a child, even if shes a teenager or legal, she shouldn't be held responsible for what happened. Kids get crushes on adults, they may even pursue them. That doesn't put them in the wrong.

[@donovanbrice5258]

I think he actually panicked. Even his ears look like a scared horse. She instigated it, and he had not 30 seconds to react before Charlotte walked in. And from experience, panic attacks where you literally cannot do ANYTHING last way longer than 30 seconds. I don't have any but I've had a few. Whether or not that happened here makes all the difference

[@Maiten_E]

@dedrick suggz BoJack is a 50 year old who has done way worse than Penny and no one has seemed to ever tell him he wasn't mature enough or whatever. Still he found ways to excuse his awful behavior. Teen do that because their kids. The have barely a fully formed personality, brain and even bodies. They're teens, they have the chance to learn from they own shittines (within a reasonable range) and grow

[@Maiten_E]

@@donovanbrice5258 I think you're remembering it wrong. There were two incidents. one at the front door where he panicked and said no and the other one in his boat's deck. In the second one Bojack said "Go to bed Penny" and left the door open for her to come into his bedroom. He was partaking in it when Charlotte walked in. He chose to do it

[@Maiten_E]

@dedrick suggz Teens are teens, young adults are from like 20 to 25, that's not the same And , yeah, that's why I said 'within a reasonable range'. If you kill or rape or whatever it's a fucked up thing that everyone knows it's horrible and wrong. What we are talking about here is a minor bad thing, or not even a bad things just a bad decision Let's say that you, as a teen, mixed bleach with vinegar -just to put a clear and easy example-. You didn't do it out of malice or anything; you did it out of curiosity and because you weren't aware of the consequences, and after that you learn that vinegar and bleach don't go togheter. That's basically what happens with teen, they have to learn from their actions and their consequences If people want to be shity, dude, they'll be shity, they'll find an excuse. When they're kids, because teen are basically kids, they aren't set on anything yet, and they'll learn to be less shitty as they understand the consequences of their actions

[@donovanbrice5258]

@@Maiten_E well I hate to bring this up, but you gotta realize he also didn't even do anything illegal

[@braidedgirl757]

The thing is he was extremely certain in turning her down as he should have however he did not even contemplate doing anything until Charlotte turned him down. So it feels like he would have been using Penny as a substitute....BoJack is the adult even if the parents shouldn't have let her go with him...even if she was coming on to him who the hell cares his first response of turning her down was the correct one...that should be obvious

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Yeah, the parents shouldn't have trusted Bojack, but the fact is, Bojack is a good actor and he was certainly putting on a show. They don't know him, they were all trusting him

[@kasanj]

My first time watching it, the most striking thing about the whole situation was that Bojack left the door open. The instant I saw that on my first Watch I knew that was both metaphor canned actual trouble. He left the door open knowing that she wanted to be with him. If he would have close the door behind him it never would’ve happened, and of course he knew that.

[@lexlixatkwa7nelson3]

I agree that the first time he turned her down would have been that, but then on the boat he told her "go to bed penny" and then left his door open... I agree that they were both at fault but that door open move was eek ^didnt see this previous door comment before, and yea agree

[@zenande699]

So what you are saying is that 'no means no' doesn't apply to women?

[@kasanj]

Zenande Godongwana it applies but bojack, the adult, the one who ultimately took responsibility for the shady action that took place, he said no but then left the door open and engaged. That's a scum bag move. Do you disagree?

[@12DAMDO]

i find the scene where he almost did it very uncomfortable and was like "ouch" everytime someone brought it up

[@theshockinglyeloquentdog9945]

the show knew it too. that's why whenever it was brought up it played THOSE guitar cords

[@jeremiahnoar7504]

@@theshockinglyeloquentdog9945 Those guitar chords and the use of the word "f*ck" always meant that shit was about to get serious!

[@juliaprohaska9295]

I think BoJack hurt Charlotte more than Penny, because he betrayed her trust in such a horrific way.

[@phirerising]

I don't think having your trust betrayed is the same as having your mom's adult friend groom you & try to sleep with you knowing that you are a minor.

[@Danimalsfan]

@Instrumentality1000 teens their age always get into alcohol, he tried giving them something better then vodka and juice, "better" as in they wouldn't get a hangover, but obviously, it went wrong. As it usually does with bojack

[@slowmoe1686]

@@phirerising This is literally the worst thing Bojack has done besides the thing with Sarah Lynn, but as much fault as I give Bojack for this I'm not sure I would go as far as to say he groomed her. But on the other hand I suppose I can understand that opinion, and it wouldn't be a terribly long stretch from the mess that did happen.

[@ragingfred]

IMO he seemed more torn up about ruining the remainder of his relationship with Charlotte than anything that happened to Penny.

[@taylormiller9301]

@@phirerising but he didn’t groom her, or try and get closer with her just to sleep with her. Saying yes to her asking was still wrong, but he in no way manipulated her towards it

[@marchosiasu9700]

Bojack is the adult in the situation, saying that he's 100% responsible or 100% innocent is bullshit. Apart from the law, keeping this is the human morals area. Penny DID start the situation itself, however, Bojack could have just said "no". Even if she would have been instistent, Bojack could 100% prevent her even getting close. Penny was a dumb teenager who was probably never interested in Bojack in the first place. She, after all, never expressed anything romantic towards him. It seems like the only thing driving her to have sex with him would have been teenage hormone bs. Penny is the victim of the situation, which is indebatable. The trauma and fear of Bojack inflicted on her is serious and should not be ignored due to the circumstances. Bojack did say no, he did say he is not interested, but I don't think Bojack is a type of person for us to believe this. I mean, after all, he had no morals back then - he had sex with Emily, even though he knew she was close to Todd. I don't think Bojack had enough self control to just say "no" and be 100% sure. However there is something i feel like you skipped. Bojack later on says "Would I have done it? A part of me tells that no, I couldn't, but a part of me knows that's a lie". I feel like this is the dealbreaker for Bojack. We can actually read this sentence in various ways, however, I feel like it suggests clearly that Bojack could have easily had sex with Penny back then if it wasn't for Charlotte's intervention. Penny DID make a mistake. It led to the situation in the first place. But Bojack should have been smart enough to just close the door, go to bed and ignore the proposition. Penny trusted him and he was the adult. He should have known better and he should have stopped right there.

[@marchosiasu9700]

@@dunkingdonkeykong4960 Penny was most likely not aware of how terrible Bojack is with his alcohol addiction and so on. It was not a responsibility of hers to treat him differently due to his past she was unaware of. I feel like the show itself shows that our past and heritage aren't a reason to treat other people badly (for example with Beatrice's situation), and justifying Bojack actions with his alcoholism is not the point of the show, contrary in fact.

[@goatskin4487]

Your wrong, it was legal she made the choice. The trauma she faced was because of herself.

[@mewmew6515]

Fucking preach

[@hush7359]

Ppl really really underestimate teenagers....she was probably just as intelligent as bojack....he only had more experience than her in life...these types of excuses should be given to toddlers... that whatever they do they're children... that's not her case though..yes she isn't fully an adult...but a lot of ppl don't really change that much after 17 years old accept for appearances... teenagers are just as smart and self aware as adults she did know that she was doing wrong but only balmed bojack( which mostly is) which is a very typical teenage behavior..... cause no matter what they do they would always still be considered children and innocent....what if say she killed someone...is it also the victims fault for being the adult of the situation and not knowing how to handle it....and lastly i do believe bojack did wrong i don't think he should take the whole blame..

[@feuerteufel7813]

"The trauma and fear of Bojack inflicted on her is serious and should not be ignored due to the circumstances." But why in the first place? I'm on PC's side on this: "Nothing illegal happened, and even the legal didn't happen". By the time Charlotte enters the room, both are fully dressed, and sitting on the bed. At max, they could have kissed or made out a bit. But is a kiss, you already wanted, really enough to leave such a trauma? That doesn't seem fitting to me.

[@carmenschneider1249]

I think the saddest part to me personally was when Penny told Bojack "You're the first person that treats me like an adult and not like a kid". Penny was a kid, a young teenager, she was 17 and Bojack was 51. I think personally that Bojack accidentally groomed Penny into thinking that she is old enough and mature enough to have s3x with him due to him treating her like an adult and not a child. He used to be friends with her mom, he lets her drive his car, he listens to her boy problems and even takes her to prom to cheer her up and make her crush jealous, afterward they have danced together in a "romantic" setting. I don't think BJ intended to make Penny feel like she could consent to him probably because BJ himself doesn't behave like a responsible adult should and more like a teen. I don't think Penny is at fault at all since she most likely misread situations and was simply too young to understand what happened as she later mentions when BJ shows up at her university. BJ was the adult in this situation and only accepted Penny after his rejection by Charlotte, he had told Penny previously "You look just like your mother" and I think he wanted to sleep with Penny to get over Charlotte with the closest "thing" next that reminded him of her.

[@estebangutierrez160]

Isn't the legal age of consent in New Mexico 17? But still even if she was much older like 21 it's still wrong of Bojack to do that to someone who's younger and a friend's child.

[@SparkleBurgerLuv]

it probity why most teens mostly female always wanted older male compansion, because they were treat them like an adult and not a kid like their parents

[@ker9714]

Penny is a child. She may not be really little, but she isnt old enough to understand nor deal with the negative outcome. Coming from someone who was molested at 14 by a 50 year old man I had known and trusted all my life. At the time I thought it was what a wanted. I'm now in my mid twenties and I'm haunted by everything that happened back then. It has absolutely impacted my mental state, my sexuality, my sense of safety around those I trust... the list goes on. Sorry about the rant, I just needed to insert what it could have been like for Penny if things had gone further.

[@candiedcolloquium4918]

I'm so sorry that happened to you, I know I've had plenty of crushes on adults and felt flattered when older men acted completely inappropriately towards me because I thought it meant I was a grown up. Luckily it didn't go further than that, but I know if it had I would have let it happen thinking it was what I wanted. It's terrifying and traumatizing to think about, how my immature child brain would have "consented" to something because I was convinced that it meant I was mature. THAT'S why these videos are so fucking harmful, these men make excuses for each other and try to pin the blame on the naive child when the adult was the one to make them think that their behavior was appropriate. No child "pressures" an adult to give in and commit a crime just because they were so persistent, it's disgusting apologists who can feel bad for an adult who takes advantage of children/teenagers. They create a gray area of "technically this was legal," or "17 is only a year away from 18, being a legal adult, so it's not a big deal." No matter who makes the first move, adults hold all the power in those situations and people need to stop letting them off the hook because it affects real victims.

[@SpecialProjectY]

*Penny was a teen. Just because she would be 18 in few months, it doesn't magically make her instantly an adult, heck, know quite a few 30 year olds that could pass as kids, mature mentally that is. Penny was 17, with at least basic knowledge of sexual intercourse and responsibilities as she knew what to do not getting pregnant. It's kinda also scoffed Bojack was drunk at that time.

[@reisuke_6030]

@@SpecialProjectY just say,”you’re so mature for your age!” =/

[@melinakorovessi713]

@@reisuke_6030 It bothers me so much how everyone is like “she was a kid” but no she wasn’t I am 17, and she definitely new what was going on. She was wrong too. He was wrong, but so was she.

[@heather2701]

@@melinakorovessi713 absolutely not. Keeping aside the fact that just because you're educated about stuff completely at 17, doesn't mean every other teen is (17 year olds are literally kids, they make mistakes, it's the adults' job to not let them make them) you are 17 rn, which, as cliche as it sounds, leads you to believe you know what you're doing even though the you in the future is probably scoffing rn. Like, ik it sounds cliche but it's true. I was used as a teen by older, adult 40 - 50 year old men, and at the time I thought I knew what I wanted. But I didn't. It's just pure horror when 50 year olds get with 16-17 year old little girls, it is NEVER the teen's fault.

[@loiracitr]

Penny is probably so hurt by the memory of the accident because she feels ashamed. Her first instinct when she meet him years after is to justify herself

[@shayshayshayshayshayshayshay]

I think BoJack was actually interested in Penny because of the scene on the water tower, where he said, “you look just like your mother”. Not only is it foreshadowing, but it definitely alludes to BoJack seeing Penny as more after that night. Maybe even a way to get to Charlotte, in his own twisted ways.

[@jameseubanks474]

Even so, I look at the line where he says that he wants to say he wouldn't have done it but it's a lie. Even if he had those feelings he knew they were wrong that's why he kept trying to avoid the situation. But Penny didn't understand. She wanted what she wanted and pushed him. Bojack knew he felt that way but hid it in the hopes of preserving the life he had with the Carson's and his own knowing how wrong it was. He denied her like 4 times. And she persists. That's the only reason that I say equal blame. Bojack knew very well what he would do in that situation so he tried to avoid it. But he gave in anyway

[@shayshayshayshayshayshayshay]

James Eubanks earlier in the episode, something played off as a joke, was Charlotte going on a tirade towards her parents. It’s a small detail, but slight hormonal changes can have drastic impact on a person’s choices in many situations. I would place the blame mostly on BoJack, but Penny still had a part to play. I’m kind of in Shady’s camp in the end.

[@olajohnson2423]

I think he was using her as a substitute for her mother. The only reason he pursued her was because she looked like her mom. He refused to have sex with her because he knew it was wrong. The only reason he later agreed was because Charlotte rejected him. She was a substitute for Charlotte.

[@jameseubanks474]

@@olajohnson2423 He never pursued her! Bojack rejected her on the boat again and Penny pushed on!

[@imsad3630]

About victim blaming: A child is bitten by a dog, the child’s mother asks “what happened before he bit you?” This isn’t victim blaming, this is looking for context, if the mother asked “what did you do to make the dog bite you?” That is. In the first question the child could explain what was happening hopefully without feeling like it was entirely their fault, In the second, the mother implies that the child did something to agitate the dog, suggesting it is the child’s fault. Asking: “Penny, what were you doing before it started?” Isn’t the same as “Penny what did you do to cause it?”

[@samalama2334]

a grown man isnt a dog, dogs dont have the same self contol of humans. bojack knew what he was doing. most dogs dont have malisoius intent like that.

[@imsad3630]

@@samalama2334 I wasn’t comparing bojack to a dog, I was pointing out that phrasing can deeply change the meaning of sentences. It was about the phrasing of a question impacting Penny, not Bojack

[@sentientcabbageman4140]

He was drunk she was sober, as someone who's been a teen and is still a teen, she had as much of a part to play as him

[@tranidite]

@@sentientcabbageman4140 Yeah but a drunk adult is still an adult. If they done the deed, drunk or otherwise, legally Bojack would still be held accountable for statutory rape. He may not have had his wits about him but he still had enough to tell penny to go away so he atleast has enough to not sleep with her afterwards.

[@sentientcabbageman4140]

@@tranidite she kept persisting that 17 was the legal age of consent in new mexico, she kept coming on to him

[@id1343]

bojack is at full responsibility here. not penny. when bojack and penny were on top of that tower, while they were dancing bojack said "you look just like you mother". if you saw his face, you could tell he felt as if it were and intimate moment between him and penny. he was subconsciously already attracted to penny and was already grooming her even before he said this (whether that was intentionally or not). penny was young, and even though she was legal, bojack's 30+ years of experience of life automatically gives him the power to take advantage of penny. as a child (specifically between the ages 0-18) you are taught to just listen to adults because children "don't know anything", whether that is with school, sports, parents, or any with almost any adult. it's wired into children's brains from birth, to just listen to adults, even if the situation doesn't seem appropriate because adults know "what's best" and "what they're doing" (penny's friend getting alcohol poising, and bojack harassing Pete to follow his instructions). he already had power over penny from when the alcohol poisoning happened with her friend. sleeping with her would just prove my point. notice how every time this story is brought up bojack always says "nothing had happened yet". he always uses this line to defend his shitty behavior. lets say Charlotte never walked in, and bojack and penny did end up having sex. knowing bojack, he would most likely say "I rejected her multiple times before that" so it seems that HE was the one who was "forced" into it, even though he has all the power. just like with Sarah Lynn on their first bender: he justifies his shitty actions by saying "I took her to rehab first". it doesn't matter that bojack said no first. at the end of the day, he was the adult, he has all the power and responsibility. its all bojacks fault.

[@GarrellWoods]

CUT IT OUT!!! He said, "You look like your mom" not "What dat mouth do". She should have NEVER approached him that way and when he said, "NO" It means NO. How come "no" only means "no" when it comes to societies idea of who the 'victim' is? Bojack is only at fault for letting her into his room. SHE initiated the sexual shit. SHE DID. We watched it. It's there. colonel mustard, in the drawing room, with an axe. So she's completely exempt from the CHOICE she premeditated. "I know the laws, I didn't drink tonight on purpose" COME ON! Get that shit OUTTA HERE!! She's at fault for initiating and not taking No for an answer and Bojack is at fault for not letting "no mean no"

[@id1343]

Garrell Woods penny is a dumbass teenager who let her hormones get the best of her. penny shouldn’t have kept on asking but she was a stupid 17 year old, and as bojack said, she doesn’t know what she wants, yet he STILL went and tried to sleep with her. bojack GROOMED penny. 1.) by sharing his secret on why he was staying, that was automatically a red flag. 2.) taking her to her high school prom 3.) making her think it was okay to just leave her drunk friend at the hospital. he has SO much power over her. it was bojacks fault 100%. he knew that there was a risk of mentally hurting penny, yet he took it anyways. as for “you look like your mom” did you not hear his tone and the way he looked at her? if it weren’t for pete, they looked like they were about to kiss and have an intimate moment. bojack went to penny ONLY because he couldn’t get in her mom’s pants, so penny was the next big thing which is fucked. bojack is the adult, who knows better and has more life experience than her. he’s at fault, he took advantage of her.

[@CrystalRose1111]

Garrell Woods It was shown in certain scenes that he kinda stalked her and had those thoughts though. He also let her walk in his room, when he could’ve refused, which makes it worse. Teenagers cannot consent to adults no matter what

[@GarrellWoods]

Grace Coleman Did you not read my comment. I said, she is at fault for initiating and not taking no for an answer. And HE is at fault for letting her in the room.

[@GarrellWoods]

Sooooo IF he was grooming her so bad why did he say no. There is literally nothing about the characters development that insinuates that Bojack is some sort of predator always try to be predatory to Penny. He was just rejected by her mother before he came back to the houseboat and found her there again after he already told her to go to bed. She took advantage of him in a weak moment and that is where he is at fault for being weak. But I completely refuse the idea that he planned it or in anyway tried urge it on. The series gives us way too much insight about the personal machinations of the character for us to believe that Bojack would do something like that especially considering how tormented he was by the decision that he did make years later.

[@misamisa3579]

Penny was 17, and (speaking as an 18 year old) at the time you are still naive and hormonal, but you should still be able to tell that actively pursuing and older man and not taking no for an answer isn't ok. But Bojack wasn't just the adult in the situation, he's SIGNIFICANTLY older than her, 50+. They both should have known better, especially Bojack, who is the one mostly responsible for things escalating. He should have just said no and meant it

[@MagickalDistruction]

Nooooo her brain is not devoloped she litterly is t able to think as well it doesnt matter what she did . he was a powerful person, and he knew that she cant understand. Victim blaming hurts children

[@moonie1825]

@@MagickalDistruction she's 17 not fucking 7

[@MagickalDistruction]

@@moonie1825 that acutlly fucking grooss that you would say that.

[@moonie1825]

@@MagickalDistruction It's not my fault You people infantilize young adults to such a ridiculous degree. Or maybe it's just young women.

[@talayna1651]

@@MagickalDistruction while somethings are hard to understand at our age, sexual harassment is a pretty simple thing to know. He told her to leave him alone three times in response to her sexual advances. At that age you know better than that. You can’t tell me otherwise, that’s why she wanted to hurry and do it in secret

[@kdoesthings12D3]

7:33 But shady Bojack is older and should've known better than to not have not only even thought of consenting but to have left the door open He left the door open cause he at the same time wanted it to quote Johnny 2 Chellos "He metaphorically left the door open while literally leaving the door open"

[@Yoseqlo1]

Personal responsbility is also thing, though.

[@bluebird1914]

He could've just left the door open because he was lazy. I mean if you were BoJack, would you really believe that Penny would try one more time to get you to sleep with her?

[@Spongebrain97]

But remember that he had earlier rejected Penny's advances. The difference at this point was that bojack was in a different state of mind in which he was sexually frustrated and having been told the local age of consent was 17, he went with the flow

[@kdoesthings12D3]

@@Spongebrain97 that's still creepy and his own fault

[@manband20]

@@bluebird1914 Yes, absolutely. Keep in mind that a natural human response to a sad or traumatic event is to put walls between the source of our pain. If someone in our family yells at us, we slam our door. If we get chased or shot at or whatever else, we try to hide and make ourselves small. Nothing in animation is done without purpose (save errors) and leaving a literal door open into a secluded, intimate location like the bedroom after being propositioned sex by someone is fiction's way of saying "It's up to you. Do what you want." If Bojack wanted to keep away the girl who just came back to ask him again to have sex with her, he would have shut and locked the door. If that's what you do when a persistent solicitor is walking up and down the street asking for money, you don't just say no and leave the door open. It's very clear that Bojack was leaving the door open to the idea of having sex with someone who reminds him of his longtime attraction, who also happens to be that woman's daughter.

[@skyrogue1977]

I do find it annoying how Bojack tells Penny to go but then he just lets her in his room.

[@13Reese98]

he said "go to bed," he didn't say which bed

[@allyli1718]

Trvrr Zbsky the same reason he said she reminds him of her mother, got her drugs, and didn’t close the door.

[@kieranlyon1643]

Victim Blaiming is an issue. I agree with you in this case, Penny insisting past BoJack's no was completely wrong. Her doing that was antagonistic. But you can go too far with what is lumped in with "antagonistic behaviour". Its a very fine line that needs to be walked carefully.

[@sakthisd5565]

Talking from Bojack's perspective - Bojack left the door open as a sign that maybe he isn't completely shutting her out this time. It was a clear move for penny to follow in if she wanted. It was like, "Well she made the choice" if he was ever confronted after what was bound to happen, happened. But things gone south with Charolette actually walking in and I think that's the best thing happened to Bojack - Charolette walking in. If she did not do that, he would've become irredeemable

[@MsSoapify]

The only reason penny felt like she could put the moves on Bojack was because of the way Bojack led their relationship. As an adult, someone completely in charge, he built their relationship on keeping secrets from her parents, on giving her and her friends alcohol, and then convincing her that it was okay to ditch her friend with alcohol poisoning, ultimately to protect himself. That is textbook grooming. Penny would not have approached Bojack in this way, if Bojack hadn't built a relationship that allows the space for that behavior. It's disappointing to see people talking about Penny "contributing to the situation" while not realizing that this situation is something built by Bojack. That was the arc of the entire thing, how Penny was responding to a relationship/environment that Bojack built. It's like watching Bojack nearly chop down at a tree, and then trying to give Penny blame for when it falls to the ground.

[@99sins]

Well in this case, if the show is to be believed, the grooming was unintentional. This means that it doesn't actually meet the definition of grooming. Bojack is, however, at fault for neglecting the optics of what he is doing and anticipating what kind of affect it will have on Penny. The part where Shady described the scene and mentioned how "nobody raised an eyebrow at the whole situation" really struck a cord there and Bojack of all people should have kept that in mind.

[@bunnyrabbitsrkewl]

Never thought of it like that before. Insightful. Thanks!

[@MsSoapify]

Kaweta Was it unintentional though? Bojack himself admits that Penny reminds him of Charlotte. Bojack may have convinced himself that what he was doing wasn’t WRONG, but the way he moves around Penny is absolutely filled with the intention of getting closer to her, impressing her, and fulfilling his daydream of being apart of their family

[@MsSoapify]

Anything that happens within a groomed relationship is 100% the responsibility of the adult who groomed the child, because NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, if their relationship hadn’t been skewed the way Bojack did it

[@kellyhoward1956]

this is so well put i wanna delete my comment now lol

[@Anna-mr9vf]

What really enraged me about Bojack is that when he tracked Penny down in her college and saw that she was doing fine, he couldn't LET her be. He COULDN'T leave it at that. It's like he was seeking some sort of validation in potentially seeing her still being affected by what happened and him still having an impact on her life. And then being disappointed when she was seemingly healed. When she was leaving the party he actually made SURE she noticed him by knocking over the singing group. He left feeling guilty about now having destroyed her life TWICE (and the second time was malicious and intentional), but validated that now he FOR SURE was on her mind and affecting her life.

[@metanightmare4454]

Not gonna lie, I actually had to walk away and come back after about an hour of stewing it over when picking A or C in that community survey, mainly because I didn't feel either one was completely fair. A felt like it was saying that Penny did basically nothing wrong whatsoever, which definitely isn't how things played out, while C tries to say they both messed up in equal measure, which is obviously wrong because Bojack is the adult here.

[@greywalker505]

(Insert nice and wholesome comment), There’s a bit more to add to this. It wasn’t just the fact that Bojack was about to sleep with Charlotte’s teenaged daughter, age of consent be damned. Consider: Bojack came all this way looking for Charlotte, and when he found her, she was already “out of his reach”, if you will. On top of that, she wasn’t the same person Bojack knew before. She was older, still had something of a youthful spark, but overall was more down-to-earth than she used to be. He still wanted her, though, so when she rejected him, he allowed the “next best thing” to walk into his bedroom: Penny. Then there’s Charlotte’s justified anger about the situation. Yes, it can be chalked up to the obvious things, but think about this: she had just rejected him. For all she knew, he could have been trying to sleep with her daughter out of spite. Even if he wasn’t, what did it matter? Her teenage daughter was in a bedroom with her former friend whom she had told to leave, and they were in a compromising position. And then of course, there’s the fact that she was clearly horrified when she eventually went to college. Bojack may have been coming to apologize, but of course, you can’t go on a bender, then show up at your ex-friend’s daughter’s college, despite her not telling you where you were, wearing a trench coat, and expect them to react with anything besides horror and the thought that they’ve come to “finish what they started.” So, yeah. That’s my take on the subject. Sorry if it’s a bit jumbled. Thanks for giving your own insight, Shady.

[@samalama2334]

I very much agree with your point. i also want to add that many times the blame of cases like these are put on the parents and the victim. i agree to a certain extend the parents are responsible but victims never commit the crime. many times the predators are look at like monsters which is wrong because we tend to forget that these people FULLY understand what they are doing and at least 80% of the blame has to go to them for commiting this act. no one but them commited the act. not the parents, not the victims. ONLY THE PREDATOR. (sorry if my spelling is bad lol)

[@AJ627]

This exactly how I feel over all this. Bojack should have prevented this even when he was desperate and Penny should've respected Bojack's wishes but was too nieve to think otherwise.

[@randomgaming5738]

Fr

[@ejosjek52.87]

Naive*

[@estebangutierrez160]

At the same time, Penny said she knows what she wanted but Bojack later on accepted the offer. Bojack has the mind of a teenager, and Penny thought it wouldn't be a big deal since she was an adult, and yes in New Mexico the legal age of consent is 17.

[@GiulianaBruna]

I totally agree. Penny had some personal responsability, the same way their friends shouldn´t had drink that much. But I am with the people putting some blame on Charlotte and Kyle. At least the series shows Charlotte blaming herself a lot. And kyle is like, an idiot. But seriously, letting your 17 years old kid take a 51 old man to a party, a 51 years old man you having seen in years but you know is not the most healthy and responsable person ever? Being 17 years old is learning to look after yourself, but as her parents they can control in which situations she learn this.

[@bluebutterfly5062]

I would say it's 70% Bojack's blame and 30% Penny's. She's a teenager and he's a grown-ass man. But yeah, Penny should know better not to be messing around with 50 year old men, and stop the second you hear "no"

[@StarHarvestOfficial]

This. If she was 18 we would be treating her like an adult and the situation would suddenly be like 80% on her. A year makes a difference but not so much that it absolves her of all blame for her actions.

[@barninghurtsalot3054]

exactly, she was ignoring a clear which is NEVER ok for anyone. in a sense she was trying to coerce him

[@juliajiffy]

@@StarHarvestOfficial even if she was 18 I think it would still be on bojack majority-wise. They even say in the show that penny was 17 and that was the legal age of consent, but that wasnt the problem, the problem is that penny was not mature enough to make a decision like this. The brain is not fully developed at 18, 18 is just a legal age set in place by law but you are still developing and are not capable of the same decision making as let's say someone bojack's age. She was still not capable of consenting as a minor, even if legally it was allowed.

[@empac8631]

GadzieGadanie she didn’t know her mom just rejected him though, if she did she would probably be more upset that this dude wants to break up her parents marriage and was getting close to her out of caring, but him being there started with a bad intention to begin with. The way I see it as Penny being a teenager and thinking Bojack wants her (teaching her to drive, caring about her life, taking her to prom etc) and that he rejects her because he would believe it’s wrong and doesn’t want to be a predator. When he returns she could assume his demeanor was about what had happened and that’s why she says she knows what she wants etc. All of it is wrong, but that’s just how I read the situation. She thinks he’s rejecting her out of the principle (which good for Bojack at that moment) not that he doesn’t want to. She doesn’t know he has feelings for her mom and that could contribute to it too. Is she coercing him? Yes. Does she know she is? No she’s a teenager. She believes she’s mature enough to make that decision, and is immature enough to try and explain that to an adult who knows (and should know) better.

[@allyli1718]

fsociety nah, the age gap still ensures that Bojack is big in the wrong. Like, she shouldn’t even be an option to him, so saying no should not have been hard at all. She’s contextualized as his friends daughter, young enough to be his daughter. The fact that he said no twice should not give him credit. That is the bare minimum, and then he failed that when he started to try and do it. However, I’d say her trying to force him to do it would put more blame on her. If she were blackmailing or physically pushing him, then I’d agree. I’m not sure what she did in the show really enters that area, though. We cut from him saying go to bed to them doing it, so it’s hard to know why and how he changed his mind. It’s her mistake, but probably just Bojacks fault.

[@kostjabirk4606]

One of my favorite episodes, best part: the driving montage back to LA, right after Charolette says fuck to Bojack.

[@cosmicpanda7043]

I really wish they used that part of the main theme in more parts of the show. Its so badass

[@hadarfraiman9041]

First of all, i agree that most of the responseability is on bojack. The thing i dont understand is the hypocracy in the comments- i saw a number of people saying that bojack's no wasn't decisive enough, and that makes me very angry. A no is a no, especially when bojack said it a couple of time, and was voulnerable and drunk. In other circumstance, this would be considered rape. Bojack was disgusting and did a horrible thing, but saying that penny had a part in this is not victim blaming, it is just looking at tge facts

[@TheMrMeng]

We have had it hammered into our heads ever since we were in high school that 'no means no'. Bojack rejected Penny's advances. He said 'no'. Penny chose to not respect that decision and try again and that's why I will die on the hill that she shares some responsibility for what happened. To be clear I am in no way saying that Bojack was in the right, he just wasn't the only person in the wrong.

[@prettiecake]

It seems that so many people miss the nuance of the entire scene in this case. I really feel for Penny about this situation, when I was 15 I worked with a guy 7 years older than me. I liked him, was v friendly with him, and didnt keep it a secret that I had a crush. But when I began to move on, and started an LDR, he told me to my face that those never work, and made sure this one wouldn't for me by kissing me. That confused my young teenage brain, and I broke it off with one of the most kind boys I've ever had the experience of knowing. After doing that the aforementioned 22 completely cut off all contact with me, left our workplace, etc. Where I deviate from Penny is that though this experience left me upset and jaded, I worked on my trauma and accepted that I played a part on the mess, but the 22 yr old was the adult, and shouldn't have meddled in my affairs. I played a part in kissing him back, but wasn't gonna ruin his life. Instead I warn others about predatory people and behavior, like ppl that groom. I call it as I see it because I dont want anyone else to have to hurt.

[@eatmyphatphuckingass]

LDR?

[@mortiferamorphasmus]

@@eatmyphatphuckingass Long Distance Relationship

[@andrewsparks9700]

Well when you think about it, it makes sense why teens would be confused. To them a 22+ year old interested in them means they must be mature enough for an older person. When in reality it's the reverse and the older guy just has the maturity of a teenager.

[@CrystalRose1111]

Not enough people take this age gap thing seriously. Teenagers cannot consent to adults, because they don’t fucking know better. They’re not mature enough, even if they think they are. The same thing happened to me

[@therealCrazyJake]

While rewatching the show, something came to my attention about the situation that changed my perspective a bit: right after telling Penny to go to bed, BoJack leaves his bedroom door open. If BoJack had closed the door on Penny, he might have been held less accountable for what happened afterwards, but he left the door open, essentially inviting her in, and seeing how BoJack’s last words before doing so was “go to bed, Penny,” it also comes across as him inviting her into his bed.

[@siniayab.6816]

Same. In a way I felt like him saying no initially was just a way for him to cover his tracks if it ever came up again. Nothing he did in that scene showed me that he was opposed to it at all. If he was serious about it he would’ve closed the door and told her mother it wouldn’t have even made it that far.

[@tempejkl]

I doubt that’s what happened. He sounded quite firm, the door open thing sounds like a stretch, it’s hot in New Mexico, prolly wants fresh air

[@tempejkl]

⁠​⁠@@siniayab.6816not really, bojack isn’t a mastermind that thinks of that in the moment. As a man, he probably felt an urge, and wanted to shut it down before he would let himself do anything (especially since he’s drunk, and mentally I’ll).

[@sumguy7716]

If a 20 year old woman and 20 year old man are on a boat, and the 20 year old man tries to hit on the woman and she says NO, multiple times, but then leaves her door open later that night, does that mean the woman is INVITING this 20 year old man into her bed??? Of cooourse not, the guy is a CREEP and he is trying to RAPE her. Let's all ignore how this is basically what is happening in this scene though and absolve the poor little victim female of all responsibility like we do in every other aspect of life.

[@carlamitce443]

@@sumguy7716bro she’s still a child

[@dezs.5202]

I might have a bias here, but I’m almost 18 and the thought of trying to do something like this is so freaking stupid to me. I have trouble looking at Penny as a child and not someone my age with just about as much life experience. Everybody I know irl is smarter than this. I’ve had friends in situations vaguely similar to this who knew that it wasn’t right and that they shouldn’t engage with older people in that way. She’s not a little kid, she’s in her late teens and she should know better. That being said, I definitely agree that it was most BoJack’s fault. No adult should even consider getting sexual with a minor. I just think she shouldn’t be completely dismissed for blame because “she’s just a young, stupid teenager.”

[@PropheticShadeZ]

i get the feeling like this is supposed to be a morally grey me2 movement thing that went too far into bojacks corner. I think a better situation would be if bojack actually went through with it and freaked penny out with his specific sexuality, showing why his maturity isnt compatible and harmful to a younger person. maybe kick her out afterwards and treat her like his other women and have that be the incident that bojack regrets, he used her to feel better and scarred her through being himself, then i think the rest of the story woprks much better.i disagree with you on the no one would do this angle, i know plenty of guys that go specificly to pick up as close to legal girls because they have the greatest chance of sucess, i feel as if the opportunity to hit something more meaningful and less not really bojacks fault was missed

[@dariannealy2655]

Thank you! When me and my friends were 17, we weren't thinking anything of doing things with older people in the slightest. This sort of decision was something we all thought to be taken into heavy consideration. We thought things like this should wait until we were adults. 17 year olds aren't stupid--they're close to being college students. That means living in a dorm, moving out of their parents' house, and taking on many other responsibilities that a CHILD could not. It's transitioning into adulthood. I dislike how so many people are coddling Penny, calling her a child, when she's transitioning. It's as though they're treating her like she can't think for her own. It's totally Bojack's fault, most of it. But the constant coddling of Penny when she's so close to adulthood is crippling. Time to own up for what she's accountable for. Both parties have their own responsibilities and their own faults. (Bojack though, he should've just kept rejecting her smh.)

[@nikkiralaniakea9527]

Thank you at least you get it. Penny ain’t a victim but it still doesn’t mean Bojack didn’t fuck up since he was the adult. I’d say it’s equally their faults especially because of how insistent she was. He said no, take it and leave.

[@12DAMDO]

it's not "victim blaming" it's just acknowledging both sides of the story without a bias! always better to see the full picture first! overall i agree with the entire video..

[@allyli1718]

Whether there is bias is debatable, which is why a lot of people say it’s victim blaming while others say it’s not.

[@magiosilva8877]

He had more responsability to say no and he knew what he was doing was very bad. But I believe as a 19 year old who sleep with tons of people when I was ilegal. That you as grown teenager, someone who is going to be an adult rlly soon. You can also know that what you are doing is very wrong.

[@CreepyNess1234]

Bojack should have approached the parents right when she made the first move. He might have wanted to avoid causing drama but this is something he needed to make the parents aware of it. Plus it would have helped to keep him from going through with it.

[@TrembleForKyle]

I don’t understand where penny’s sudden trauma from this incident came from? Last we saw she was all for it, kissing bojack first, ignoring his “no”, following him on to the boat, and when her mum came in she seemed more annoyed and embarrassed to be caught an a possibly intimate moment by her parent, than she thought there was anything particularly wrong with it because it was bojack. She didn’t know about her mum and bojack’s past and she didn’t know about the kiss just a moment before they got on the boat. From Charlotte’s point of view this is utterly disgusting and horrible, but from penny’s point of view I don’t think she was traumatised in the moment, more embarrassed and confused. From how we see Penny later when we meet her again, she is definitely traumatised over the incident but I really believe this is more due to how Charlotte talked to her about that night afterwards. She still doesn’t know about the kiss though which I think would have made bojack seem a lot more gross and evil in penny’s eyes. So I think Charlotte must have talked to her about how it was completely bojacks fault, that penny was a victim, and that discussion completely reframed the night in Penny’s mind and that is what traumatised her, rather than how she felt in the moment and how the exact way the events actually happened - but the way penny has remembered them and reframed them seeing her mothers obvious disgust of the situation.

[@nunuri7894]

I think penny worsened when she caught bojack and sarah lynn stalking her

[@iChanul]

The trauma comes from being discovered by her mother, she never tell Charlotte that she was the ono who instigated the situation. She don't give a fuck about it in any moment and keep going after Bojack. She just play the victim card to scape accountability... The fact that she change so much is because the sixth season came after the MeToo Era.

[@iamempererrjviray5834]

Sometimes victims of sexual abuse may not realize they were victims of abuse until years later. Especially in this case where penny has had time to mature and understand the situation. In her eyes at the moment She was a kid pursuing a crush. Now as an adult she sees the event for what it was. A much older man. About to take advantage of a child.

[@tempejkl]

@@nunuri7894If you’ve ever been drunk before, you’ll know that wasn’t his fault. It’s double standards if you blame him for that, in that case you’d also have to blame women for being raped while drunk which is also wrong. (I would also say it’s Sarah lynns fault, but she wasn’t sober either)

[@sumguy7716]

@@tempejkl I find it hilarious that if Penny was only one year older, Bojack could've charged her with rape, yet the comments sections is FILLED with people calling Penny a poor little victim and denouncing Bojack as absolute scum. No logic at all.

[@Jay-nz2do]

I just realized that the "go to bed" can be interpreted in two ways, especially since it cuts to them in bed

[@thezerowulf507]

Everyone is a psychologist in the comments

[@Impalingthorn]

To be fair my major was actually in Psychology though I generally just like discourse.

[@IANOYTYK]

I think for me- Bojack was acting purely selfishly and it doesn't matter what Penny was doing. Afterall, Bojack only agreed after he was rejected by Charlotte. Earlier he mentioned how much Penny looked like/reminded him of Charlotte (someone Bojack really wants). When he couldn't get Charlotte? He took the next best option- mini Charlotte. Personal responsibility seems out of place here because of the weight of the general responsibility. They are not worth the same amount of consequences. Penny went on a prom date with a guy and wanted to get with him afterwards. Bojack went on a date with a teenager, got rejected by her mother, and then decided to take the teenager up on her offer.

[@cheesecakelasagna]

I think Charlotte also factored in when it comes to how Penny dealt with what happened all those years. From what I can remember, the dad and son doesn't even know the incident even in S6. Perhaps even Charlotte instigated Penny to look at the situation as a thing to never speak of and never resolve internally. Swept under the rug kind of thing. In which, in almost all cases irl, doesn't help the person involved to cope.

[@tempejkl]

It’s also worth accounting that since bojack said no, and was drunk, she could actually get in trouble by speaking out about it, because she’s an adult and technically broke the law by doing this. (this would also mean Bojack and Sarah Lynn, and probably most women bojack slept with would also be legally responsible, although this shouldn’t be the case)

[@Hdinoify]

As someone who voted with the 34%, your points on Personal responsibility vs general responsibility is pretty much how I think the situation as a whole was.

[@Alexz5040]

If penny did the same thing to someone her age it would’ve been seen as sexual harassment and assault bc she didn’t take no for an answer and continuously asked after he said no multiple times which is why I don’t understand why she’s so traumatized yes bojack is also in the wrong he knew she was only doing it on an impulse and should’ve told her mom about the advances

[@PatricksCrazyPlace]

How Bojack should have handled it: Penny: "I know what I want Bojack" Bojack: "Go home Goober!" Penny: "What?" Bojack: (shuts door and leaves without saying a word) Responsible, morally right, AND funny.

[@DirtiestDMusic]

Seventeen might be the legal age of consent, but Penny is still far too young to know what she's doing. (Bojack even says as much in the episode.) I don't hold Penny responsible for what happened. She's being a stupid kid. As others have pointed out, the cartoon art style makes it easy to forget that Bojack is 50+ years old. He should be the responsible one. I don't think this is a case of "victim culture." The victim here is a basically a child, especially compared to Bojack.

[@cathrinem9225]

You forgot to mention that Bojack left the door into his bedroom open. Penny accepted the "no" until she saw that Bojack left the door open - and metaphorically let her know that he hold the option open if she kept on trying. He didn't want to say he consented cause he knew it was wrong, but he was willing to show it.

[@crypt5129]

Or he just forgot to close it?

[@Passions5555]

@@crypt5129 it's not framed like he "forgot to close it" though

[@crypt5129]

@@Passions5555 And yet he still easily could have

[@Passions5555]

@@crypt5129 yeah, he could have easily closed it. That is the point. He didn't.

[@LadyNekoshema]

I agree with your conclusion. People, including characters in the show, seem to overlook Penny's personal responsibility for the situation. Legally, morally, yes, it's on BoJack, but what really upset me in season 6 was hearing Pete and Penny retell the night. They're doing what many people seem to do "it was all this other person fault and I did nothing." Yes, Bojack bought the alcohol and told Pete to lie [dick move, irresponsible, and illegal] but Pete tells Hollyhock about this dude that forced them into the situation. Penny was repeatedly rejected, but I suggest a combination of youth, embarrassment, and an angry parent twisted her perception and she now see's it as BoJack taking advantage of her when she was apprehensive and unsure. Again, BoJack is more at fault of the situation, but it really feels like it's been twisted to look like innocent kids were attacked by a scary adult and they couldn't prevent the situation in any way. Not blaming anyone, but observing the situation, it appears like the characters need a villain for a black and white conclusion to a complex situation.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Exactly, and while I feel *Bojack was mostly in the wrong* alot of people act like Penny is completely innocent. Being young, naive and stupid is not an excuse to not be accountable for your actions. I get the feeling the writing staff wanted to weigh in on Me2 so they acted like Penny did nothing wrong and it was all Bojack. It feels like they are twisting the narrative of their own show to push a political agenda, which is scummy if true. You could argue Penny is trying to absolve herself of responsibility but the show seems to paint her as honest in her recollection. I could easily see Charlotte flipping out on Penny after Bojack left having something to do with it. A shame we only see the aftermath so it's unclear exactly why Penny skewed the memory of what happened.

[@yourlocalfatshionista]

I still find myself screaming: TELL HER MOTHER, YOU IDIOT!!! Like, I don't think Penny should have been trying to pursue this I wholeheartedly think Bojack should have kept saying no But also, Bojack needed to involve her parents in some capacity. The fact that he didn't left an avenue open for him to exploit if he ever felt the urge.

[@kinematograficznie]

Maybe im just European but how the hell 17 year old isn’t capable of consent but one year later she magically is capable of that lol

[@aprilmichel7816]

The same way a fourteen year old is not capable of consent in mine but a fifteen year old is. It's an arbitrarily drawn line; not ideal but I can't think of a better way so we'll have to go with it I guess.

[@tempejkl]

@@aprilmichel7816Don’t know about other countries, I do know the USSR didn’t have an arbitrary line, and took it as a case by case manner. I wish I could explain more, but every time I just get fake sources saying that there was no age of consent entirely. It’s crazy the lies about the USSR, the USSR was the first country to legalise abortion, and also the first to legalise homosexuality.

[@DatCatchyTune]

ur character is the color of your opinions Shady, Not black or white, but in the grey area! ok now laugh

[@RoyalRoses]

He left the door open on the boat, he knew what he was doing.

[@moonie1825]

Yeah one could say he was asking for it

[@nikkiralaniakea9527]

@@moonie1825 I hope this is a joke. “Asking for it” really?? This strangely reminds me of rape culture. He said no multiple times, it doesn’t give you the right even to a 17 year old to keep insisting and then act like a victim years later. This is a really disgusting comment.

[@OriginalJohnnyCage]

​@@nikkiralaniakea9527 You want to say a Minor is a rapist and not the adult??? Wow you lack brain cells

[@WhiteCloudProductions]

You know, I'm surprised no one really discusses Penny's predatory behavior. To continue asking for sex from someone who keeps rejecting you until they consent is malicious behavior. I agree that Bojack is the most responsible one and Penny is the victim but the show not calling attention to her behavior is a missed opportunity.

[@Xacibij]

I brought this up in the voting comment section. Bojack rejected her, but she kept at it. She even entered his "house" after being rejected for sex. If you flip the genders it's creepy as hell no? Penny IS an adult in the state of NM.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Because it's no longer PC to hold women accountable for their actions.

[@Glucosedriven]

its not the genders that make Bojack's actions wrong, its the age. Bojack is 51, Penny is 17... I'm pretty sure that the reason they had him reject her her multiple times was because they didn't want to have Bojack jumping at the first opportunity to sleep with a teenager. They did want to create some grays. There is nuance to this; however, I feel like it doesn't lie in "who's fault is it that Penny is traumatized", and more in "would bojack have done it?" "Was he aware at that moment of the consequences", "does it have pedophelic undertones or was she old enough", and "was he using Penny to project his feelings for Charlotte" You can hold women accountable for their actions, no feminist conspiracy is trying to stop you. But Penny is not an adult woman, she's a teenager. Legal or not. She was insisting for sex, but not with someone of equal or even similar power. Bojack wasn't in his twenties or even thirties, he was in his fifties... edit: replied to wrong person

[@TheOsamaBahama]

Gender does play a role in how people judge this type of situation. Consider Sarah Lynn at season 1. She asks for his help, he let's her stay at his house and the takes advantage of his sympathy and trashes his place. When he confronts her, they have sex. And each time he confronts her for something bad she did, she has sex with him to make him shut up. And he does. That's an abusive relationship, she is clearly abusing him. But Diane says Bojack is taking advantage of Sarah Lynn, because Diane is biased against men.

[@magiosilva8877]

@@TheOsamaBahama I mean both Sarah Lynn and Bojack were rlly fucked up, she totally had the power there. She was using sex to shut up Bojack. But if you see the whole picture, Bojack was having sex with someone he met when he had 20(? And she had 7 probably (?. And she probably don't even pay attention to that fact but she was proyecting a father in bojack. Which also makes its even creepier

[@DuskChaos]

I've been anticipating this video.

[@xedusk]

An important detail for me in this discussion is that missing minute before Charlotte walked in. He was so dead set on turning Penny down but then looked pretty happy and content when Charlotte walked in. I feel like I need to know what happened during that time in-between before I could give make a final judgment , myself.

[@anawieder5003]

If Penny was trying to sleep with a 17 or 19 or 21 year old Bojack. That would have been a different story. Maybe even 5 years would have made a difference. But Bojack was in his 40s, decades older then Penny. He absolutely should have known that she was not truly capable of consenting; and he did know, and he gave in anyways

[@Inhalepens]

He was in his 50s even creepier. Don't see what he'd want with a 17 year old girl still in high school

[@tempejkl]

@@Inhalepenshe was drunk and mentally I’ll so you can’t exactly trust his intuition here

[@carjis]

“As someone who’s gone against the grain on this topic before-“ WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT BRO

[@dragames]

doing something you regret doesn't make you a victim... I think that should have been the lesson here.

[@heathercely3151]

Coming from a 17 year old we are capable of knowing what’s right and what’s wrong.

[@DistortedShelf0]

If you're going to blame Bojack, you have to blame Penny. Penny's circumstance was youth, she didn't have the life experience to make sounds decisions. Bojack's circumstance was a lifetime of abuse and operating in a slimy industry. Neither of them asked for it, neither of them of them needed it. The blame game is a fool's game.

[@sofig1237]

You know, maybe instead of saying "you're young, you don't know what you want", Bojack should've said "I'm not attracted to you" or "I don't want to". That kind of rejection would've probably stopped Penny from following Bojack to the boat and asking him again. It would've hurt her feelings but that's nothing compared to what almost happened. If Penny thought she was being rejected on the grounds of "he simply doesn't like me like that", it wouldn't have felt like Bojack was questioning her maturity. When Bojack told her "you're young, you don't know what you want", Penny took it as an insult and a challenge. She felt offended that Bojack wasn't taking her seriously because of her age, which provoked her into wanting to sleep with him even more just to prove she was "grown-up". Kids don't usually like it when adults say "you're a kid, you don't know". Even if the adult is right and the kid IS making a bad decision, being told "you're young, therefore you're making a bad decision" is not nice for the kid. They feel like the adults don't respect them and that only aggravates things. TLDR, Bojack could've worded his rejection differently and it would've been avoided.

[@toTheWatcher]

For sure Penny had some to blame, but definitely Bojack should know better. i honestly didn't understand how she thought she was the victim in the end, it just didn't make sense to me.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Probably because modern Feminism is trying to remove women's accountabilty and paint them as victims anytime they suffer consequences for their actions. Bojack became political later on and had a blatant feminist agenda in how it handles the women in Bojack's life. So to fall in line with modern Feminism Penny had to see herself as a victim.

[@CrystalRose1111]

Greatsaiyakirby First of all, this has nothing to do with feminism. Teenagers CANNOT consent to sexual activity with adults. It is the adults responsibility to cut this off.

[@lunab541]

@@PlanetZoidstar sidetracking here, but Bojack Horseman was always political. You're failing to see it bc presumably you only got bothered by it when gender discussions came into play. Having an open mind to unconfortable topics is the show's greatest strenght, you could learn something from that

[@chilllz_8669]

Was anyone else bothered the first time bojack went to prom And every time i c that penny and bojack scene My heart drops

[@flyingfuzzies4908]

Shady nooooo. Penny was 17, and Bojack was like 50. His mentality is way more mature and advanced than hers. Sure she instigated the event but she’s a teenager, and she’s gonna make dumb teenager mistakes. That’s why it’s the responsibility of an adult to say, what’s happening is wrong, and it’s not going to happen. Many, and I mean a LOT of young girls think that they’re in control of a situation they aren’t in, and I’m pretty sure that’s what happened with Penny. The reason this is so bad is because they trauma comes much later when the victim realizes that they in fact weren’t in control of the situation and that what happened was wrong. I can kind of understand what you’re saying about “Penny being somewhat responsible” but she truly wasn’t. Should she have instigated it? No. Does that make it any less Bojack’s fault? No.

[@Saskaruto16]

Let's be honest for a minute: a huge portion of this is because of gender. If Bojack was female Penny was male, this wouldn't have even close to the same response and the blame would not be considered to be entirely on Bojack whatsoever, if they treated it like it was wrong at all. The idea that she is just a child with no autonomy at 17 is kind of insane. There is a reason why age of consent is debated and why most states have it below 18.

[@juliajiffy]

@@Saskaruto16 ok, while yes their genders had a role to play in this you have to realize WHY gender has a role to play in these types of situations. Society grooms young girls into these ideas that they should be promiscuous and sexual despite being children, that's why you see so many young girls dressed in more showy clothing and aiming for promiscuous fit body shapes. This makes it easy for usually older men to take advantage of them and then claim that it was their fault for dressing the way they do. Even if the roles were reversed it still wouldve been wrong, but the reason people are more upset about this particular dynamic is because of how often it happens in the real world and affects young girls. While yes, a 17 year old knows wrong from right you have to remember that she is still a teenager, a minor, and a child. She is still hormonal and her brain isnt done developing, the show also makes it abundantly clear that despite it being legal, it wasn't morally right. They also show that despite penny almost being an adult, she doesn't have the maturity to consent, they portray her as you would, well, a teenager. The show makes it very clear that what bojack did was wrong and he later admits that if Charlotte hadn't come in he would have gone through with it, despite Charlotte being a naive and gullible minor that he realized he would be taking advantage of.

[@flyingfuzzies4908]

SmashTurtle I agree entirely with that statement. Having said that, if the roles were in fact reversed I would still have this same opinion. Either way, taking advantage of someone is wrong. On top of that, human (and Ik they’re animals but obviously this applies) brains don’t fully developed until sometime after 21. As I said before, Penny and Bojack are on way different ends of the spectrum. Bojack even knew this.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@flyingfuzzies4908 As far as development, your brain isnt fully developed till close to 25. Yet even if we don't like it on a personal level, nobody is gonna make anything close to this argument if she was 18. They would say it's kind of gross at worse. For what, a difference of a few months? You don't magically gain some crazy insight when you turn 18, or 21 for that matter. When she is deliberately chosing not to drink to set this situation up, then pushing for it multiple times despite Bojack saying no, I don't see how anyone can entirely blame Bojack. Is he partially to blame? Yeah of course. He was still gonna do it after she persisted, and even if it was legal we can all acknowledge that it isn't a good idea. But referring to her as this helpless child and putting everything on Bojack is just disingenuous and frankly infantilizing her simply because she's a girl. Bojack very clearly isn't some kind of predator, and he didn't cause or even want the situation, he was just going to eventually give in to it because he is weak willed. That's not good, but it's a very different story from this narrative that she's a victim here. I can't stand the hypocrisy of it. We see the same kind of situation in something like Riverdale with Archy. But because he is a guy, everyone is just ok with it, or at worst says it's gross but whatever.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@juliajiffy So you can read my reply to the other guy which covers several points that are the same here. But to address your specific points: I disagree with you on your first argument that girls are encouraged to be promiscuous. In fact I argue it's the opposite. Women are considered the gatekeepers of sex and are in fact discouraged from "giving it away" and are also heavily discouraged from having sex due to the risk of pregnancy. They are allowed by society to be more open with their sexuality, but that's not the same as being encouraged to actually have sex itself. Social pressure pushes agaisnt being sexual for women. Also it's not this kind of situation that causes an older man and a younger women to be together IRL. IRL it's called a gold digger. Young girls being with older guys for their money and status is a thing as old as humanity. Bojack and Pennys situation is quite different. Also I disagree that they show Penny doesn't have the ability to consent. She actively understands the laws and had deliberately tried to create this situation, not drinking, not listening to Bojack, and them pushes for it when Bojack says no and leaves the situation twice. I agree Bojack has some fault as well. He's weak willed and giving in after her persistence is not a good thing. It would not be a good idea. But putting the blame entirely on Bojack doesn't make any sense.

[@3hpleft]

I mean look up the perfect victim fallacy. As a whole, I agree with you. Just feel like for the future knowing this fallacy might help you.

[@KIXWASHERE]

Penny did push it, and as someone who THOUGHT she knew what we want, I can relate. But bojack 50! 50! He is the "adult" he needed to keep pushing away, but he didn't, because life was falling apart, and what was about to happen would make him numb to the pain. If only for a moment.

[@aliyaszutz631]

I feel like you contradict yourself a little when you say that penny is incapable of making a decision like this, because of her age. And then also say that its her personal responsibility to not make said decision, that she’s incapable of making.

[@Leacholotemj]

Instigated? Bojack puts himself at HER prom. He stayed with her family for weeks. Just the day they met he was already prying into her life and asking her to keep secrets. Usually Shady I think you are spot on but I feel like you are willing to overlook all of Bojack's previous actions and find a way to throw Penny under the bus. As if she had asked Bojack to the prom or to stay or even come. He put a family in danger for the sake of his coping mechanisms.

[@txferretgirl]

Both are responsible yes, but I don't think what bojack did was the worst thing. Penny was 17, nearly 18 and legally recognized as old enough to consent. She pursued it and having regret later doesn't make her a victim. For one they never actually ended up doing anything. So for her to act like she was victimized and raped was wrong and not fair. Bojack 100% should have continued to shoot her down but that doesn't make her a victim either. She is old enough to know better and regretting it later doesn't take away her personal responsibility to think before acting.

[@bakedbeans5494]

Still a child.

[@txferretgirl]

@@bakedbeans5494 but old enough to still be responsible for what she does. I am not saying bojack doesn't take some blame but him being pinned as the only one wrong is messed up. She still holds responsibility for instigating the situation and completely blaming only him is not okay.

[@gohonkyourself790]

​@@bakedbeans5494not a child, only ten years ago 17 was considered young adult

[@bakedbeans5494]

@@gohonkyourself790 Not a good example.

[@gohonkyourself790]

@@bakedbeans5494 sticking your finger in your ear and saying nu-uh isn't an argument

[@gloriarominahernandeznoriega]

When I started watching this cartoon, I didn't know I'd end up watching videos to further analyze the behavior and power dynamics of a horse. What a ride.

[@Gentlemenpickleesq.]

It's like my English professor said "there is no age where the wisdom and knowledge of the world gets magically beamed into your head" you gain it as you age and grow. Bojack knew it was wrong Penny had only recently became "legally" an adult.

[@TheCommenterDragon]

I'm most likely not the first person to say think and or say this, but i prefer to look at the situation from both perspectives. because you know people debate on whether or not Bojack is mostly to blame or Penny is mostly to blame, well if you really think about it, Bojack and Penny and on some level Charlotte too all share the blame for that whole situation. But of course Penny started it because you know she wanted to sleep with Bojack but he said no, and then Bojack later tries to convince Charlotte to runaway with him, but she rejected his advances and then when Penny tries it again with Bojack and then Charlotte soon after catches them in the act and Charlotte blamed Bojack even though he clearly didn't do anything. And then later on in the series Penny claims that she was victim of that whole thing when she clearly wasn't, the only thing Penny was a victim of was her own misguided decisions...but anyway the point is in the Bojack and Penny situation there's no "one" person to blame for it all, for as i said both Bojack,Penny and Charlotte all share the blame.

[@MsSoapify]

Penny is absolutely the victim. When she approaches Bojack, that is not the start of where things go wrong. The start is when Bojack begins grooming her. When he convinces her that it's okay for the two of them to keep secrets between themselves, from her parents. When he takes her to prom, the alcohol incident, which was entirely to save himself. This is what grooming is. In which an adult convinces a child that they are on equal footing, the implied conclusion to which is a relationship. Bojack did all these things, and we can see how he convinces Penny of this. A child does not share blame in a groomed relationship, especially not EQUAL blame with the adult who led the relationship. I do agree that Charlotte, her mother, bares some responsibility for letting a man who she knew for 5 minutes spend so much time alone with Penny

[@GadzieGadanie]

@@MsSoapify how is no one talking about how penny acts like a sexual predator

[@EvilxSausage]

Two thought: 1) Bojack is primarily, but not solely, responsible. He as wrong, and all the damage of his life doesn't justify it (though it does explain it). 2) I don't buy the idea of Penny as a victim. When she acts like Bojack left her traumatized, I get annoyed with her. I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, but I just don't see her as having been harmed in any serious or lasting way by the events of that evening.

[@Colonel_RamRod]

Shady would legit be a tough dude to debate I imagine, very thorough and valid points even in other videos when i don't agree with him on an issue

[@robertonome2448]

I think penny's parent likely had a little *more* to do with *letting* the situation happen in the first place. The daughter was a child, and pretty much every single child has taken *plenty* of stupid decisions in their time, so it's a little unfair to blame penny in there imo. What COULD BE penny's fault, however (in my opinion), is her treating bojack (as an adult) as the sole responsible for the mess her mental health has become - w/o pretty much acknowledging anything and/or acting like a completely different person after the fact. Altho it likely has to do with what her mom (I imagine) told her after the incident.

[@dollhousemausoleum]

I’ve noticed that literally *everyone* defending Bojack and saying Penny had blame too are they themselves teenagers. Those that aren’t are people who need their hard drives checked. Teenagers think they know everything and are sO mAtUrE 😑 As someone who hasn’t been a teen for a long ass time, what happened is entirely on BoJack. If Penny didn’t stop insisting, the next step should have been GO TELL CHARLOTTE IMMEDIATELY. Teenagers are stupid and even though they know what they want, that does NOT mean they know what’s BEST for them. Also, to the couple of teenage girls I saw who said they’re dating mid-late 20’s men and it’s okay because they’re 17-18: Those men are only with you because they cannot pull anyone close to their age, because they can see and understand things wrong with these men you can’t.

[@ApplePotato]

Bojack was definitely an irresponsible adult. But this whole incident clearly shows how people tend to play the victim when things goes wrong instead of taking responsibility. Pete repeats’s account was totally one sided and unfair. 1) Maddy already had alcohol with her. Bojack only switched it to bourbon. Bojack also didn’t force anyone to drink. Penny and Pete wasn’t drunk. 2) Maddy was probably already very drunk by the time they started doing the glow stick balloons. Pete was with her most of the time, why didn’t he stop her drinking. 3) Bojack initially hesitated in having sex with Penny. But Penny kept saying she knows what she is doing and she wants it. Penny can regret the decision later but how is it 100% Bojack’s fault? Most comments seems to point out they are just teenagers. But they are also 17, which is the legal age to drive and the legal age of consent in most states. You can’t say Penny, Maddy or Pete are teenagers so they are not responsible for their own actions. The only person Bojack really owes is Charlotte. She trusted him, only to have him try to break up her family and sleep with her daughter.

[@bat.blood._]

Legal age of consent is not the same as legal age of majority, therefore your statement is incorrect, most U.S states have the age of consent set to 16 years of age. Me being a 16 year old myself I can assure you that we AREN'T adults legally or morally. If I ever had intercourse with someone 3x older than me, I would be grounded for life and the adult would be behind bars. And even if she's legally able to consent in intercourse, she is minor, therefore still a child under the law, still going to school, living with her parents, ect. Bojack is literally in his 50's. Yes, I CAN say Penny is a teenager, bcs she *is*. Literally tell me why the word "teen" is in ***seventeen***. And I think it's funny how YOU think that once you're "legal", you magically become mature enough to make your own decisions. NO! Have you seen 16-17 year olds these days? Never have I ever met a 16-17 year old who was mature enough to consider themselves as adults. Bojack *was the adult* in this situation and he should of just rejected Penny ((aka a *minor*)), no matter how mature + ready she think she was, and no matter how bad she wanted it, but he let it happen after he was rejected himself. Your comment is absolutely disgusting, using the age of consent as an excuse for grown men/women to hit on + groom kids/teens. I like the show Bojack Horseman bcs *it points out that even this kind of stuff is really wrong, despite what the law says*. Age of consent is not even a good argument anymore, seriously how can someone see a 50 year old and a 17 year old kid be completely normal? Absolutely disgusting

[@princessmarlena1359]

I agree with you, ApplePotato

[@brezio5251]

"grounded for life" u mean 1 year and a half or 2 years maximum before u turn into a fucking grown woman in every aspect@@bat.blood._

[@cgarcia3614]

The fact that Penny should not have instigated the event, as you say, has little bearing Bojack's wrongdoing. I mean, woohoo, give him a ribbon he didn't intend to groom her or force himself on her, woop de doo! True those acts would have been far more evil, but whatever Penny did to instigate the situation doesn't alter the fact he was going to sleep with a child he knew wasn't ready and that he no doubt was going to either leave behind with no warning or keep sleeping with and emotionally messing with behind her parents back (in all likelihood, it would be either situation and we all know it). The victim (she was emotionally traumatized by his irresponsibility in not shutting things down, so YES she is a victim) does not factor into how wrong or not wrong Bojack's actions were, and to imply otherwise is to minimize a terrible act. Not to say that I don't think Penny's decisions were incredibly stupid (It's what I thought as a teenager and what I still think now), but the POINT is that unless she, or any other victim of an inappropriate UNDERAGE sexual situation, had a gun to BoJack's/ "the aggressor's" head forcing them to mess around with them, there's no point in bringing up the victim's actions when assigning blame. Yes, Penny definitely needs to reevaluate her actions that night, as she holds some (some, but certainly not all) blame in failing to protect herself. But her taking personal responsibility will never negate or diminish the wrong BoJack did just by accepting her advances and the wrong he could have done. I really dislike that the video seemed to be implying the opposite at the end, and if it wasn't, that should have been clarified better.

[@Eezeecheese]

When it comes to the fault of blame, I think it’s more of a 60/40 or 50/50 because yes bojack was the adult on the situation but also penny didn’t understand what no meant. Penny continued to pursue bojack after he said no twice. Yes bojack was drunk which harms how someone thinks which is what some people seem to forget and he was also just broken hearted by his crush he had been thinking about probably since the 90s, he was the adult and told her no, the amount it seems like she was damaged by it seems way over the top. I was in a similar situation so I have more of a perspective of what happened to penny, while I don’t want to see the adult again for other reasons I don’t feel traumatized by it. Now bojack going to her college was probably something that would freak penny out because then she could possibly feel like he would know where she was at all times or was stalking her previously and that part is understandable, but her ALMOST sleeping with him is on her AND bojack not just bojack. Charlottes opinion on bojack is completely valid because that was a knife at her back but she also let it get to that point by harboring bojack in her house for so long and letting a 50 year old go to prom with teens.

[@emeralddreamer7738]

4:20 How was Penny incapable of consent? She didn't drink. The whole thing was morally not OK. But she is not being the victim there. They both are in their wrong. Penny knows BoJack is under the influence of alcohol, yet she's forcing herself on him. Why does so many comments here act like she's the victim when she herself abused the situation. She was well capable of knwing what is wrong and what is right. Her trauma is not about a man forcing himself on her, but about her being stupid and not knowing any better. This whole show is teaching us that we need to take responsibility for ourselfs, yet people want to blame everything on BoJack despite Penny being the one to force herself on BoJack who was NOT able to consent.

[@nationalinstituteofcheese3012]

While 17 is technically legal, it’s still way too young. She’s still in high school and hasn’t dipped her toe into adulthood yet. He took advantage of the fact that he knew a lot more than her

[@samanthastephens5285]

I have to be honest; it kind of bothers me how many "who's at fault: this adult man or this teenage girl?" videos you've made

[@samif1128]

THANK YOU.

[@СиняяЗвезда-ж8б]

Only one, plus many people discuss this situation so I don't see any problems.

[@susanxox4048]

@@СиняяЗвезда-ж8б there was the one about hollyhock and bojack

[@Cbawls]

whats the problem here?

[@samanthastephens5285]

@@Cbawls An adult is automatically more responsible than a teenager, full stop.

[@elizahamilton5599]

Now that I’m older I realize how wrong it was of bojack to do this!! He was the adult he knew better!!

[@42billybob]

Definitely in the "mostly Bokack's fault" camp. I can't totally let Penny off the hook though. I've been 17, and I would resent being considered as not having moral accountability for my actions at that age. And I'd look down on parents treating their kids that way at the age I am now. I would blame myself if I were her, I'd look at it as a stupid mistake I made as a teenager, not some external event that happened to me. I can't fathom what it must be like going through life genuinely feeling like you're blameless in a situation where the undesireable outcome is a result of other people not fighting YOU hard enough to stop it from happening. Yea... I guess you could call it "victim blaming" but it's also empowering knowing that's a vector of control over my own fate I have moving forward.

[@od3910]

You've got something completely and utterly wrong about "victim culture". Sure, taking away penny's personal responsibility in this situation can be argued to be a bad thing. You can say that she should use this as a learning experience for herself and her peers. But that falls apart when you look at how "victim blaming" plays out in real life. Sexual assault in real life is very badly handled. More often than not perpetrators get away with a lot based on a few factors. There is the "your word against theirs" problem but you also need to acknowledge the way people treat victims and the greater consequences of that. I grew up with a multitude of rules to avoid being raped. You can't wear this, you can't go there, don't be alone, bring a rape whistle etc. It gets to the point where the "potential victims" have to change their behaviour to accommodate for the perpetrators and not the other way around. This would be bad enough in itself but at least slightly understandable as a means to keep yourself safe. After all, when walking through a bad neighbourhood don't show off your valuables. The problem comes when those rules become legal arguments against the victim. They were wearing this, they were walking there. They were drinking, they were flirting. It gets even worse when you look at the different ways your sex and gender effects the way you are treated. Women are liars who just regret what they did. Men are supposed to be strong so male victims are tested as a joke. I can't even comment on how this translates to different ethnicities and racism but it's completely messed up as well. Tldr, the responsibility of the victim could be taken into account but only if the blaming the victim stops being used as a legal defence. There is no victim culture because of the giant imbalance that effects us all.

[@ImTitan16]

Predators usually get away with what they do cause there's ussally not evidence to support what they did

[@ImTitan16]

Predators and other criminals no what they do wrong. They won't try to change. I'm not blaming you for anything but changing the way we do things or not going at certain places is a part of life.

[@justiceadams6623]

@@ImTitan16 Not all criminals some will change if they actually try

[@libertatemadvocatus1797]

@@ImTitan16 Exactly. It's fucked up, but it's a fact of life. Yes, you SHOULDN'T have to take precautions, but it's the world we live in. I should be able to openly count the money I take out of the ATM at 2AM, but it's not a very good idea in most places.

[@alishamuhidin3604]

Um you do realize victim blaming isn’t bad just because it can be used as legal defenses right?!! Victim blaming is often used to shame victims into not reporting it Also the idea that covering up and walking in safer neighborhoods hasn’t worked right???most people aren’t raped by completely random men at the dead of night who go rabid at sight of a woman dressed scandalous .It’s friends , family coworkers boyfriends/girlfriends wife’s/husband, not random strangers people they trusted and loved . Like how come in places women cover up more and rarely go out by themselves, rape is still extremely common but seriously even more underreported When I was sexually assaulted the first thing my parents said was what were u wearing? What where u doing? Why did y trust him? No matter what way they worded it , it was victim blaming Also most predators are opportunistic not in the way u described though , they go after kid and women young boys Most predators have a pattern they take advantage of weaker people or people at their weakest and exploit it to fuel their desires Bojack had this he strangled his ex gf , exploited and slept with Sarah Lynn and did this to penny he has a patter of being abusive to women lol

[@taylorsmith522]

To be real honest I’ve watched and rewatched BoJack 3 full times now, and I still don’t understand why Penny was traumatized.

[@Theartisticyoshi]

Sometimes you look back at a situation that happened one or more years ago, and you realize that you were participating in something really messed up and start to get scared and anxious because you have a new, more disturbing perspective of the original event. From then on, any mention of said event has the possibility of bringing back that anxiety.

[@hush7359]

@@Theartisticyoshi that's not called traumatized... that's more of a ashamed from the past which i feel a lot...but never have i felt traumatized by an act i committed that's just stupid... while yes you could get depressed and sad because of your actions but it just no the Same thing...sounds to me like someone was just trying to shift the whole blame on someone else by making it look like she was sexually assaulted

[@Theartisticyoshi]

HUSH That’s why I said anxiety, not trauma. You also have to consider that Charlotte most likely told her that Bojack was trying to take advantage of her, and that probably influenced Penny’s perspective on the situation as a whole.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@Theartisticyoshi I have never watched the show but I do think the consent question is interesting because more and more peole use studies and data to back up the claims about when someone is ready for sex. I grew up in Switzerland where the age of consent is, that your age difference has to be below 3 years and after you're 16 you get full consent to sex, meaning; I had a friend that got pregnant by a 38 year old guy when she was 16, she had lost her virginity in her previous hookups and while she would end up leaving him when she turned 18, her parents didn't have the power to interrupt them from dating because the law allows it. Sure when she looks back at who gave her a child, she cringes because that age difference is insane, but she has a beautiful daughter and who could regret that? Also her parents just their grandkid like it was their kid, her weird brother became a lovely uncle and because the entire family was still in this young stage, everyone was around to look after the kid and 10 years later she's married and pregnant with her second child. So you know, I don't see the thing with trauma from early sex. I started when I was 15 and that didn't mean I drop out from school or anything, that just means I spent more time fucking a guy than being on some facebook page looking for my crush. I dated that guy for about 3 years and realised with the age of 18 that I don't wsnt to focus my life around "the guy" because I can make a relationship work with effort but I want to live my own life first. I think the point here is that I also knew that sex is my own responsibility and that I was warned about the fact that people can take advantage of that. So going back to Penny and her young age and immaturity, I'd say she wasn'z trying to have sex for herself, which is probably a bad thing, but to have your mom interrupt your privacy and intimacy like that is also a layer you all seem to forget. You can look back at these things and start thinking this doesn't fit right with you anymore, and that will be the story of you saying "ya I fucked an old famous dude when I was 16, which probably was really pedo of him haha" but to tell the story "ya I was about to lose my virginity with an old famous dude and my mom stopped me last minute" is so much more complex.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

@@Theartisticyoshi Well, yeah, but we also have to remember, Charlotte is Penny's mother. And the fact is, Penny's situation was disturbing: Bojack had gotten two of her friends drunk, one of her friends almost died because of it, and then he seemingly manipulates Penny herself into sleeping with him to get back at Charlotte. Now, also remember that Bojack that for several months now, Bojack has played the part of trusted family friend to the family. They trust him, they all love him, but after this, Charlotte likely believes that he only came into their lives to use them for not just emotional support, but for sex.

[@OnlyTwoShoes]

This was never an issue about consent. Even if Penny was 21, allowing the act to occur was a violation of trust. BoJack was trusted by her parents to act with her best interests in mind. A meaningless hookup was not what was best for Penny. She was acting out of peer pressure and expectations for what occurs after prom. She was not in love with BoJack, she just wanted the 'full prom experience' which is not a valid reason to sleep with basically a stranger and BoJack knew this. He had the life experience to know that Penny 'didn't know what she wanted' and so the responsibility falls on him to shelter her from her own foolish actions.

[@iceluvndiva21]

I've always thought both were responsible for this

[@TheImpatientGam3r]

Idk, if shes is consenting age and both consent then the only issue is personal opinion, hey if he feels bad then that on him but objectively nothing wrong happened and there is no “victim”, you can have your own morals but its not up to anyone to enforce your beliefs on others by insisting that one person in this situation is at fault or “the bad guy”

[@albertcastro3500]

Finally at least someone sees reason, I honestly don't understand how this was a issue, or how anyone can argue for or against.

[@Jenna-in4br]

Bojack is in is fucking 50's and she is 17. How the hell do you defend that?

[@nickanthropocene6502]

Penny is a child. I don't care if she's legally an adult. She's a child. She's living with her mom, attending school, still young and impressionable, gullible, easily manipulated, and all of the things that are normal for a girl her age. Therefor, the responsibility isn't on her, but on Bojack. _However,_ none of this would have happened if she hadn't persistently instigated this. Yes, the responsibility is still on Bojack, but it's also the result of circumstances outside of Penny's control, and of long-held weaknesses in Bojack's psychology. The responsibility is still his, but it's important to understand where these actions come from and how they developed. For instance, Penny did not "seduce" him because she's a homicidal Siren, but because of raging hormones, social pressure to lose her virginity, and for all we know serious daddy issues. Bojack did not allow this to happen because he wanted to give her PTSD, but because she persisted so incessantly, because she's the closest thing he had to her mother, who he believed he loved, and because, at his core, he's still a sex addict. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it more complex than just "He's evil and should rot in hell".

[@tempejkl]

When you’re young, you make mistakes. You do not constantly try to have sex with an older man after he says no. Also, almost everyone is a sex addict, especially someone like bojack who has depression and thinks it’ll make him happy.

[@Alisha120058]

Funfact the script was originally written for BoJack to spend the night with Charlotte and then they switched it over to Penny because they felt it'd be, "more shocking," I also have a friend who dropped BoJack Horseman show when they showed Penny having PTSD she felt it was truly an insult to those who have actually been through a truly horrifying situation. The writers just wanted absolve Penny of all blame.. But think about it like this if BoJack was, "Bonnie Jo Horseman," and Penny was, "Peter," everyone would be griping at teenage Peter for entering Bonnie's room after she told him to go to bed and telling him no twice especially after being turned down Peter's father. Somebody actually made a reddit post pretending to be a male Penny and the results you guessed the kid was creepy/asshole. Was it BoJack reasonability to turn her away and shut her down? Yes 100%. But we teach boys no means no... Girls should 100% also know that no means no had Penny accepted it the first he said no none of this would have happened. Is this victim blaming? No. This is just stating an fact she should have taken no for an answer.

[@plateofspaghetti5029]

I literally made a Reddit post saying similar to this and got shit on for it- the double standards

[@Alisha120058]

@@plateofspaghetti5029 The people on Reddit can be terrible. Once got threatened because I said I don't like Diane as much as I do Mr. Peanutbutter. Apparently I was a "misogynist," who deserves bad things. But yeah they take the messages that are spoon fed to them by the show instead of thinking of the situation for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. Yes double standards are rampant and real.

[@tempejkl]

Wait, Penny has PTSD… from trying to sleep with an older man? Fucking hell

[@Alisha120058]

@@tempejkl Yes Penny mentions she has nightmares of it every night and has frequent panic attacks. My friend shut off the TV extremely fast and was royally pissed off.

[@JokeHatesItHere]

I don't thinkit's fair to say its an insult to people who've been through "Truly" horrifying situations. She was a teenager and though she shouldn't have came on to him she didn't understand how bad it was and the fact a 50+ year old man was about to sleep with her at 17 CAN be traumatic.

[@khloepiper]

in my opinion the "situation" was both penny and bojacks fault. Penny and Bojack were both the predators, penny kept persuing him after he already said no and bojacks carefully picked words were apart of the grooming "your seventeen you dont know what you want" when turning her down and "you look just like your mother" when dancing with her. I also think pennys parents are to blame because why would you let a man that you havent seen in 20 yrs that just showed up out of know where go to prom with your daughter..? I also think if the genders were reversed penny would defintely be seen as the bad guy.

[@arrowerror9330]

Penny is SEVENTEEN. You can say she “instigated” it or she’s “the age of consent” but whether you like it or not, Bojack is fifty. Penny’s brain isn’t even fully developed yet. She’s expressed intense regret, and that she didn’t know what she was doing. Bojack rejecting her at first also shows he KNEW trying to sleep with Penny was wrong and tried to anyway. Penny is not a fault. Bojack is an adult, Penny was a child.

[@saedrasmith6365]

I think its everyone's fault. Penny should have taken no for an answer instead of continuing it. Her parents should have said no due to the age gap, and bojack should have not taken advantage. It is not mainly bojacks fault. Penny gave and open option to bojack when she kept asking. Despite bojack saying no, since Penny kept asking, when he changed his mind he saw it as an option.

[@unviewerrandom4792]

i think thae you can infatilize people who are allow to drive car or drink.... at one point you consider them as kid or you consider them as adult but you cant coose what suits you . Morally its bad but not illegal , PENNY and Bojack are responsible

[@michaeldietz9026]

how does no one bring up Charlotte's role in this? who would let someone who you know is an extremely problematic person stay with you, you husband, and your children for the 3 months or w/e it was that he stayed there? also the only reason he was going to fuck penny is because he got depressed when Charlotte rejected him and kicked him out. obv bojack is the most culpable but she is also to a lesser extent, just by even allowing her children to be exposed to bojacks shit.