Grooming in BoJack Horseman

[@treceh]

Bojack was more caught up with the situation being “legal” over it being obviously creepy and inappropriate. Penny was 17, Bojack was in his 50’s; he absolutely knew better and risked it anyway. I think people forget how old he really is because of the character design.

[@seeleunit2000]

Ok, that's one of the points I made. Penny was a daughter of an old friend of his and because of his bruised ego, he almost slept with her because Charlotte turned him down... And no one points out that that is pretty messed up. Or how no one is really upset about those two teenage friends of hers getting hammered and one of them having to end up in the hospital. Everyone always comes back to the penny incident. Nothing else except that. And it makes me wonder about these people

[@no.6377]

Oh god I genuinely forget this dude is supposed to be in his goddamn 50's. The whole Penny situation is already gross to me, but recalling just how vast that age difference is makes it even worse😭😭

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

​@@seeleunit2000And then we find out later that Pete is terribly traumatized and it is the final straw for Hollyhock

[@christianandjesse7370]

Bojack also lived with Penny for months by that point and he was heavily pretending to be a mature uncle figure. So he clearly saw how penny was immature. I think part of it is he genuinely sees like as almost constant theater. He was faking his maturity, so he constantly assumes other people know it's just a play to him

[@seeleunit2000]

​​@@christianandjesse7370Pretty much. But replace theatre with sitcoms and this is what you have. That's what I have been pointing out for forever.

[@magpie_monster]

Obsession over age of consent is, in itself, a huge red flag. Like, there's no meaningful difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old; it would still be an inexperienced, emotionally vulrenable teenager being exploited by a 50+ year old adult.

[@DogNamedWatson]

I tell people all the time: You do NOT need to be a child to be groomed. I speak often about the fact the Phantom of the Opera Christine, and I'm told, "Unless you're watching the movie, she was literally an adult" as if it excuses this much older man *appearing in a young woman's mirror, pretending to be the ghost of her father, and manipulating her into following him down into his literal dungeon* I sincerely do not understand how ANYONE can argue Christine wasn't groomed by the Phantom. Yes, she was an adult. Yes, she was still groomed.

[@orangepotato-w4l]

it’s not obsession it was just the fact, it’s weird, no denying that but if it’s the age of consent then that’s what it is , we don’t make the rules 😂

[@elknothin3403]

Just the scenario of some old guy living in his friend’s backyard and having a secret relationship with their daughter is gross and immoral

[@costelo_6297]

Let's not pretend an 18 years old is a child either.

[@EmpireGamingWynter]

@@orangepotato-w4l Ew. This comment is legit so groomer coded, you might want to delete it

[@sarahthomas8670]

Nah idc it weird for a 50 year old to be chilling with teens at prom lol

[@rowrysang4053]

Unless it is someone's father, and the person is typically a loner or need extra care because of disabilities

[@138veronica]

For our prom (2013 - 2014) we were explicitly told, verbally and in writing, not to bring dates older than 21. And that 21 year old had better be a brother or cousin.

[@ThePrinceHerb]

@@rowrysang4053 that shouldn’t be completely overlooked tho. Fathers (step fathers) can be predators to their own children

[@Zarastro54]

@@ThePrinceHerbYes but in general it’s much more acceptable for a parent to chaperone their child.

[@SeqZZ]

Nothing wrong with something being weird

[@kataminedj]

He uses Penny as a substitute for Charlotte only after Charlotte rejects him. Before that, Bojack was grooming Penny, but he was grooming her to be his surrogate daughter. In order to get close to Charlotte. That makes his eventual decision even worse. Only when he had no hope with Charlotte did he mess with this weird father-daughter relationship. Bojack literally doesn't know what a parental relationship should be or boundaries normal parents have. So he treats all his surrogate children like Penny, Sarah-Lynn and Hollyhock as friends more than children.

[@kelpo6304]

his "you look just like your mother (who I am attracted to)" moment during a romantic dance with Penny is before Charlotte rejects him

[@minnybeez]

you're so right, the parallels with Sarah Lynn are terrifying. especially when he ends up looking for Penny in college :(

[@christianandjesse7370]

​@@kelpo6304yeah, and he's still planning on sleeping with Charlotte. He is attracted to Penny tho

[@michellegodwin6567]

One thing I've noticed about Bojack is that there are very few female characters he interacts with who he DOESN'T pursue some kind of romantic relationship with - the only ones I can think of are people he's biologically related to and Kelsey Jannings, who's a lesbian and who he still tries to awkwardly impress in her first couple of episodes

[@OnUs-x9d]

He does things that are inappropriate for the child and that's the only point. It doesn't matter why. It does not matter why at all.

[@LizbetNene]

The "Penny had agency" line of argument is so weird to me, because obviously teenagers have agency and are prone to having big feelings and bad impulse control - surely that makes it more important for adults to draw boundaries, not less?

[@towhee3400]

❤❤❤❤❤❤ me @ this comment

[@Somecreacher]

LOUDER FOR THE PPL IN THE BACK 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Heck, the entire episode was about how stupid teenagers are

[@christianandjesse7370]

And we see that the other teens did not have true agency, which shows neither did Penny. Penny just had a better reaction to her abuse at first, because she came from a loving home and didn't recognize it as abuse until too late.

[@glupik1234]

it's just victim blaming.

[@kelpo6304]

thanks for pointing out the type of groomer we don't talk about very much: an emotionally stunted adult with terrible boundaries gets close with a minor, but when the adult is inevitably unable to maintain age-appropriate relationships due to their dysfunctional behaviors, they eventually view the minor as a way to meet emotional and sexual needs. I think this is actually much more common than the stereotypical predator/groomer teens are particularly vulnerable to this "semi-unintentional" grooming because most teens are physically adult enough to be attractive to people that aren't pedophiles, but still child enough to look up to older folks or not identify red flags that adults have learned to recognize. Charlotte can recognize that BoJack trying to break up her family over a vague fantasy means that BoJack is bad news. Penny is too young to realize that it is definitely bad news when a 50 year old wants to sleep with his friend's 17 year old daughter (especially after taking up a fatherly role in her life)

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

This reminds me of a guy I knew from high school. He was recently busted for CP and while I definitely think he is guilty, it's hard because I know he is also very stunted. I really think this was stuff he started watching in high school and could never grow from it. He still needs to be in jail for it, though

[@lucyandecember2843]

👀

[@nicolasnamed]

Thank you for this comment cause you're right, this is the reality of a lot of grooming and absolutely what happened in my family. My former stepdad absolutely did not get with my mom with the intention of grooming me and my sister, but as we aged from kids into teens I think it reawakened a lot of trauma and dysfunction within him. (He was likely used to make CP as a child as well as being groomed by two older teen girls when he was a young teen). Not to mention he was basically a fucking Breaking Bad character in his previous life, and has had the worst parents of anyone I've known personally. He molested me, but then got horrified when he asked me about it because I expressed being indifferent/a little uncomfortable and he seemed to regret it so I naively forgave him and didn't tell anyone what happened for a long time, or that he told me he loved me, only for him to turn around and seemingly groom my sister when I rejected him. (Which I didn't find out for a couple years) There's more nuance to get into but this is a yt comments section so I'll leave with this; Bojack was kind of a comfort show to me because in many ways it reflected the man I was forced to live around. I have little sympathy for him at this point, but I recognize my former stepdad was still human and it's more complicated then "This person is purely intrinsically evil!!!"

[@tymondabrowski12]

​@@nicolasnamed I think instead of remorse you mean forgiveness or sympathy, remorse is feeling guilty about your own actions, which unless you took revenge on him, I guess don't need any remorse.

[@sckmindfrud]

​@@nicolasnamedcope however you want, but letting that happen to your sister and then excusing it is rly disgusting. I feel for her

[@sophiespielman6775]

Idc if it was legal, losing your virginity at 17 to a 50 year old male family friend would be immensely traumatizing. It’s weird that people want to downplay it.

[@grapejuice3943]

yeah drfinitely like it scarred her already but if it happened like it was going to it wouldve been so much worse and people just brush it off because "well it didnt happen" when it was going to! Chance was the only thing holding Bojack back, not that he chose to stop

[@ivoryphoenix7]

I found this to be one of the most uncomfortable episodes in the show. The dread that slowly builds up until that scene… It’s the only one where I remember having to take a break from the show afterwards. It’s concerning that there are people that believe Bojack wasn’t in the wrong here.

[@BrigadoonZyphoon]

There are people in the real world who have relationships like this. I'm sorry you can't understand that younger women might actually be interested in that. Sounds kind of sexist and insulting to be frank. What are you? Some sort of misogynist? Why do you hate women and act like they have no agency or understanding of sex and relationships?

[@Megaritz]

@@BrigadoonZyphoon I actually agree the empirical evidence indicates that adult-teenager relationships are not always traumatizing, but I think your comment is made in bad faith. I don't think you believe the accusations of sexism you're making here. Did you watch the episode? Did you watch the video? There were a dozen reasons why Bojack's relationship with Penny was predatory. And it would have been the same if the genders had been reversed. The video discusses a predatory relationship in another film where the genders are reversed, try watching the video.

[@terry523_dad]

right? even though it didn’t happen they literally show she was still traumatised from it. how do people think it wouldn’t be so much worse for her if they hadn’t been interrupted?

[@JoaoVictor-ti2tt]

I think Bojack not having done it intentionally is a part of the series message. He continuously commits heinous acts without "careful planning" and later just blames it on his trauma, thinking "How could this be my fault if I'm such a mess because of my upbringing?". Unfortunately, many people took that precisely in the way that the show opposes. Nuance is often lost in the public it needs to reach, and Bojack Horseman is only one in the line, before that, we had Breaking Bad, and before even that, The Sopranos. It's too much man.

[@J3llyf12hy]

Exactly ignorance and stupidity does not absolved you of your actions and its consequences.

[@Kaebren]

​@@J3llyf12hythey're also saying you can't hide behind trauma as a reason for making bad choices your whole life

[@bogwitchbrigade]

You gonna tell me sabotaging Todd's career wasn't planned? He's sporadic, and that makes him all the more dangerous.

[@ks58843]

Exactly! Grooming usually does not happen on "purpose" as most people who abuse aren't that smart. They intuitively copy the abuse that they experience or/and do whatever feels good to them including the most toxic or abusive things without any regard on how it affects others, including minors. Even if Bojack didn't plan this long term his actions and decisions along with grooming patterns to the dot and he still took the same advantage in the end when the opportunity arrised. Every time he took a creepy action or gesture he had a chance to make decision not to do it and we can even often see him cringe and become awkward or excusing himself showing us he still feels he's doing something wrong. Just because somebody didn't state an intention to himself to groom a kid (and how messed up they would have to be to even admit this thought) doesn't change the fact they followed through with it anyway million times over when interacting with the kid.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

​@@J3llyf12hyEspecially when he keeps doing it

[@BluesGold.]

Bojack having no intentions when he arrived, does not change what he did.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

In some ways, I think it makes it worse. It means Bojack had to come up with this quickly..

[@quackman]

@@rosesweetcharlotte Yeah, or that it's just "part" of him. He's simply around a family (weird already) and naturally got way too "attached" to the 17 y/o, leading up to this.

[@flutterg1035]

His intentions were to use her as a substitute for her mother. That's what it changed to

[@PieboxAnimations]

He didn't DO anything though.

[@munecabonbon]

​@@PieboxAnimationshe would've if her mom didn't walk in. What if she didn't catch them?

[@lorenacrystal50505]

It is so normal for younger people to have crushes on older people, happens to everyone. HOWEVER it is not normal for the adult to ever reciprocate those exact same feelings like EVER. It’s frustrating how this is something that has to be explained STILL in 2024

[@gonfftheprince]

Makes me remember the smash me to wave. Everyone was saying "well yeah i kissed that 16 year old he came on to me" then you have Dabuz who's like "he tried to get romantic with me, but as the adult i pushed him away and told him no"

[@egorzimowski3505]

i need someone to explain it to me, cause I don't see why older people are not allowed to like younger people back.

[@malamap1632]

@@egorzimowski3505because when you are older you can’t find younger people attractive because they aren’t even developed. If you are younger and find an older person attractive that is normal. Why would you date a 5 year old? Age gaps are especially bad because of the power imbalance and a teacher dating a student has responsibility over the student and can make them do something they don’t. When you grow up you will realize how disgusting those relationships are. They are supposed to be equal partners.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

​@@egorzimowski3505Bojack wasn't just an older guy who liked Penny. He was a trusted adult, a family friend, a rich trusted authority figure. He had power over Penny..

[@egorzimowski3505]

@@malamap1632 why are you talking about 5 year olds? And what do you mean younger people are not developed? When I was 18 I was working and living alone - I was developed for that, but not developed enough to date me?

[@ishkajules]

21:30 "Did I scar that LITTLE GIRL for life" Penny was a child and Bojack knew it.

[@justincain2702]

Tbf, that was after the fact when he clearly had been reflecting on it a lot

[@Toasted.Pencils]

And people still try to discredit penny! Shit if I was her and my mom’s 50 year old friend tried to sleep with me as a replacement I would be traumatized too

[@4567bugie]

🤮🤮🤮

[@M3lr4kk1_Therianthr0py]

DISGUSTING!!

[@charliek7896]

@@justincain2702 your "too be fair" is nonsense. bojack he knew she was a child when he wanted to sleep with her. the purpose of that line is to reiterate AGAIN how fucked up bojack's behavior was.

[@consistentlystupid4726]

One thing I've always found extra gross, is that BoJack is really just using Penny as a substitute for Charlotte. Mind you this isn't to say that it would somehow be okay if that wasn't the case, it's not. But the fact that he was going to use Penny to fulfill his own desire of being with Charlotte feels even worse to me.

[@seeleunit2000]

That's what I've been saying for years. The worst thing about this. Penny was an obvious substitute for her mother. Because after kissing Bojack Penny turned him down and then he to soothe his ego goes to Penny. And no one acknowledges that.

[@towhee3400]

THIS!!!! He literally tells Penny "you look like your mother" when dancing together, it gave me SUCH a visceral "ick" reaction. He almost slept with Penny immediately AFTER getting rejected by Charlotte. He left the door open so it was "Penny's choice/idea", thus trying to wash his hands of any responsibility as the adult in the situation. It's disgusting.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

It also felt like Bojack was using her to get back at Charlotte for rejecting him

[@colonelehrhardtii6907]

I literally can't help but shed a tear whenever I hear the line "you look just like your mother"

[@seeleunit2000]

​@@rosesweetcharlotteThat pretty much is what happened

[@felixben-yuvalnatan9067]

11:30 I made a word for this: “passive predator.” An older adult who does not seek out minors or weaker younger people, but when presented with the opportunity where an attractive young vulnerable person approaches them with trust and interest, they flirt and pursue them. A normal adult would immediately think “that’s a child, and she needs therapy”

[@ktgame2640]

You lost me at the word normal

[@squirrel670]

​@@ktgame2640how? Are you saying it's not normal for adults to recognize a child trying to come onto them should be suut down?

[@Esohe-l5u]

I wouldn’t say the child would need therapy. It’s normal for children to crush on older people. But their parents should probably be notified so they can have some kind of talk with their kid. Bc if it’s just an innocent crush, I personally don’t see a problem with it. I remember crushing on adults in middle and high school but I knew better than to reciprocate if they were to try something with me. But if that boundary is also blurred in their eyes, that’s a problem.

[@ciciciciciclala]

Kind of think you're on the right track here. As the person above me stated, the "needs therapy" is a step too far. But I'd also change the "attractive young vulnerable person" to "young vulnerable person they are attracted to". Because stating attractiveness as an objective characteristic of the young person is, besides kinda creepy, impossible as that's subjective and it has the danger of implicitly shifting responsibility away from the predtor. They're not attractive, they're a child. The predtor is attracted to them. That's a whole different thing

[@Blandopinion]

So it is very normal for young kids to have crushes on adults but it is up to the adult to be mature enough to turn down the child. My cousin had a crush on a 28-year-old man when she was 17. He was a family friend. As soon as he learned that she had a crush on him he talked to her and told her that he would never be with her and that it is inappropriate to feel those feelings towards a married man who is an adult with children but he recognizes that those are normal feelings. Basically told her that it's okay to have feelings but you can never act on those feelings with me. He got the parents involved and the whole thing was handled cleanly. Why would an adult man want to get with a 17 year old that he has nothing in common with?

[@gem9535]

I was an incredibly empathetic child, which made my mother nervous. The worst kind of predators aren't evil men in basements, but adults with a sh!t ton of unresolved trauma. Emotionally stunted, but with adult experience. An unstable teenager with an adult's strength.

[@monbub]

The thing is the evil men in basements start out as emotionally stunted men with unresolved trauma, as you said. Two sides of the same coin.

[@videogabe_0]

god you're so right. and (not to assume you are a woman) but women are so often explicitly or implicitly taught to be that nurturing, kind, compassionate being that puts us in harms way more often than not.

[@ActuallyEvil]

I feel like the worst kind of predators are the ones that rape and kill but maybe that's just me

[@Nilruin]

@@ActuallyEvil Clearly abducting and r*ping a child in an abandoned warehouse isn't as bad as a fictional cartoon horse character named Bojack unintentionally grooming a 17-year old character. One of the many issues with the internet is that they somehow focus on unethical or immoral (by their standards) actions and use absolutely heinous crimes as a comparison. For some reason. No, the "worst kind" of predators are not "adults with unresolved trauma". The worst kinds of predators are actual criminals. The fact that we're even trying to make the comparison between the two means that the person who started this nonsense has no grasp on reality. I'm not saying that groomers aren't shitty people, they are. But they are, by no means, anywhere in the same realm of evil as actual criminals. There's a reason why it isn't illegal to groom children.

[@ActuallyEvil]

@@Nilruin Exactly, the fact they are even comparing the two is crazy.

[@Kid_Majora]

From my perspective, he *was* trying to get closer with Penny, and a lot of the stuff, like sharing secrets, going to the prom, etc, was on purpose. But he wasn’t doing it so he could be friends with penny or sleep with her, but to gain her mom’s trust. I honestly think his intention was to prove he could be a family man, and if she wanted, charlotte could leave her husband for him. And when she rejected him, he resorted to , in his mind, the “next best thing.” I don’t think it’s an accident from the writers that penny and charlotte look so alike.

[@Phoenix.Sparkles]

Mothers and daughters usually resemble each other, I doubt it had any deeper meaning than "they are related", but I'm sure some switch target because of the similarities.

[@Kid_Majora]

@ i know mothers and daughters usually look alike, but Bojack literally comments how similar they look. I think the writers did that on purpose specifically for this storyline. Also her dad is a human, she couldve been a human 😭😭😭

[@danyt1232]

This is further proven when Bojack told Penny that she looked just like her mother

[@soulbitten]

I think it was also to have someone look up to him. He liked that someone was paying attention to him and seeing him favorably in a way adults don’t because they know better. He found it complementary and didn’t stop to think about how his actions might affect someone vulnerable. Hell, he probably never really considered the fact that she might be vulnerable, at least not in a conscious way.

[@VixeyFrost]

Adding to this, Bojack has this fixation on women and girls and having a daughter, and he tries to prove that “family man” idea to Charlotte, but he doesn’t spend, like, ANY notable time with her son, Tripp. It just demonstrates that he’s not a “family man,” he just doesn’t know how to have healthy relationships with anyone, frankly. He doesn’t know how to have a meaningful relationship to Kyle or Tripp, the guys in the family, and it’s very clearly shown throughout the entire episode and show that he doesn’t know how to have healthy relationships with women and girls. He just wanted to take either just Charlotte, or possibly both the girls from this family and try to live out this weird fantasy he had. It was never about actually being part of the family. It was never genuine. Despite him not having any active malicious intent from the start, he was being careless and selfish.

[@heyimgalaxy]

so weird to see how many ppl in the fandom have blamed penny for this incident 😭 like she was 17, her brain's still developing and she definitely didn't see the severity of the situation. bojack was in his 40s-50s, he should've known better

[@seeleunit2000]

Nothing justifies what Bojack did. He almost left with a friend's child that he knew for 20 years and was living in their house for 2 months. That is way worse. But what people want, isn't to really blame Penny so much as to have her hold some responsibility. Because she's not five. And the viewers think at that age chronologically she should have known better. But the situation is much more nuanced. So there must be that taking into account

[@moonlightauras1]

@@seeleunit2000 If people actually believe Penny has a "responsibility" then they should be expected to explain what that exact responsibility is and what it means to "know better" when you are a teenager who has found themselves in an inappropriate relationship with an adult who is actually the one who should be old enough to know better.

[@julius-ceasar]

yeah i remember arguing w people in the comments of a bh video essay lol

[@PandaLillie]

Here's the thing I don't believe that this specific episode or ark is supposed to directly paint Bojack in a further darker light, I feel as if Penny should have been held seemingly responsible for her own personal actions because prior to this BoJack is denying her access to him on multiplications because morally speaking he understands that this is wrong ultimately it ends up with her undressing him he's just chilling there at that given point at least for my interpretation He's given up on the attempt to make her stop. Because there's multiple nuances as to why and there's multiple layers to it that we can interpret but ultimately speaking if I was a mom and I saw this happen I'm going to yes blatantly adult but I'm also going to blame my daughter because why the everlasting fuck are you in this predicament. I'm going to still blame BoJack the most. But ultimately seeing this as the viewer what could Bojack have done besides push her away one final time. Because if I'm a grown adult person and a minor is forcing himself upon me I can fight them back and then persisting only for potentially that character or minor trying to play devil's advocate for themselves and make it look like I'm a bad guy..when I said no. And that's what I was getting from this whole episode is that it doesn't matter if he said yes or no because Penny's going to get believed regardless.

[@BaofuTheCanonicalPersonaHater]

i wish they'd made her 18 tbh, just so they could show that it would've still been wrong. just like they did with BoJack saying it wasn't technically illegal because she was above the age of consent. his actions may have been legal, but they were still creepy and wrong

[@mar1983horrors]

The words “I’m not a groomer, just a loser” come to mind 🤢

[@AutisticBearLover]

Not Miranda Sings 😭

[@star-miubin]

She was exactly the person I was actually thinking of lmao

[@Blandopinion]

Wait you mean ukulele girl?

[@Marcelis]

@@Blandopinionyeah that was her internet persona

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

Can't believe this channel is on the Toxic Gossip Train. Poor Bojak, smh my head

[@LinkChow8150]

When you have an internal monolog that repeats "I'm a stupid POS" constantly, you end up BEHAVING like a stupid POS. I can attest as someone who has rock bottom self-esteem at times in my life that believing you are a bad person makes it much easier, if not compells you, to act like one.

[@LinkChow8150]

I'm not excusing his behavior, quite the opposite, I believe it highlights how aware Bojack is of his of the damage his behavior results in, and how his preconceived notions of himself and the world keep him from analyzing his behavior deeply and trying to learn from it.

[@SolarArmadillo]

Yup. “If I’m intrinsically a piece of shit, why bother trying to act differently? It’s not in my nature.

[@OTOOO.MASHI_YUNAAII38n2]

Yeah, it's sorta like a script FFS LIKE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO TRAUMA DUMP AND SAY "I WANNA KMS" EVERY DAY QMQQ

[@7waterdrops_7]

EXACTLY. Toxic guilt and positive growth never keep company

[@josiemaromi6981]

SO TRUE!! THANK YOU FOR THE REMINDER LAURA!!! ❤

[@johnparker4484]

If bojack wasn’t a horse, we’d have way less sympathy for him. If he was just animated as a creepy dude in his fifties a lot of what he does would hit harder

[@JacintaMarisa]

Fax!!!!

[@MadameTamma]

Bojack and Penny's relationship is actually an incredible answer to the question of "WHY are these types of relationship so toxic and damaging?" and the answer comes before we even get to the big scene. Bojack may see Penny as a peer due to his stunted development, but Penny sees him as an adult who knows what he's doing compared to her and her high school friends who are still figuring things out. She trusts his judgement even when she's got a feeling that something's off. Because of this, she goes wherever and does whatever he suggests on prom night. She and her friends were not even considering drinking until he brings it up and then gets it for them. When one of them needs to go to the hospital, he just dumps her and her panicking boyfriend off there and takes off. Penny can feel that doing that to her friends doesn't feel right but she's trusting Bojack. He's there to chaperone. All the other adults in her life seem to think he's okay. He has experience with things like partying and drinking, therefore he's got to know what he's talking about right? When a predator grooms a kid what that essentially comes down to is, that kid has been conditioned to go along with whatever that predator suggests, even if it's dangerous, even if it's illegal, even if it means pushing down their own feelings that something does not feel right.

[@seeleunit2000]

Penny's friends were drinking remember ? Bojack made the suggestion to cut their drinks with bourbon. He definitely shouldn't have done that or ditched Maddie at the hospital, but those kids were drinking nonetheless with or without him.

[@soldiaz7261]

@@seeleunit2000bojack said hed buy them bourbon and cut it, i dont think they already were (edit: i misremembered the scene, someone lower in the thread clarified)

[@Jayalaw]

@@soldiaz7261 Pete and Maddy tried sneaking in vodka and Red Bull. The issue is that a reasonable adult would have confiscated the flask and told them not to be stupid, that excessive drinking even if it wasn't that dangerous combo would lead to hospitalization. BoJack didn't want to be the bad guy or the adult, and him buying the bourbon crossed the line. Sure Pete and Maddy would have drunk without him, but as the adult it was his responsibility to prevent that scenario.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

​@@seeleunit2000Without Bojack, they probably would have just had some beer, maybe some wine coolers, kids stuff. They would have gotten a little buzzed and that would have been that. Bojack was the one who made it worse and what it was

[@koboldcatgirl]

@@rosesweetcharlotte Also. He was _chaperoning._ If it was anyone's job to stop them from drinking at all, it was his.

[@nophuns]

thinking about how my groomer dressed as bojack for halloween the year i turned 18 and i couldn’t figure out why it made me nauseous at the time

[@IntrusiveThot]

That’s fucking awful and I’m so sorry, but I’m glad they told on themselves like that

[@EebyDeeby413]

Oh HELL no. My sincere condolences for you having been in that situation.

[@AYUZiMA]

dear lord

[@22dallas1]

What’s wrong with dressing up as Bojack? 😭. This is the dumbest shit ever. People dress up as Walter White, does that mean they wanna sell Meth and take drugs? Like wtf.

[@unholyamountofsugar4940]

⁠@@22dallas1 if you were a fine person that just watched the show, it would be fine lmao no one is saying that if you dress up as bojack horseman you automatically share the traits of him. this time, however, it coincides so it’s different this time. if they were just a normal person, they wouldn’t feel nauseous at it. but they are a vile person instead who has done the same. it’s like someone dressing up as a murderer for Halloween being a murderer, no one inherently thinks they are a murderer because they dressed up like that, but it adds some salt on a new wound that they are

[@rivers0ng]

This is why teenagers should always be made to feel that they matter and that their thoughts and opinions matter because when the don't, groomers will hone in on that. It's such a good grooming tactic and of course it can still occur if a child does have a good family like penny did as we can see.

[@seeleunit2000]

I can agree that it's important to treat teenagers like they have brains. It is important to teach young people to think critically. Look at what happened to Bojack growing up ? Look what happened to Sarah Lynn growing up ? Those are extreme cases, but it is important to treat your child or adolescent offspring like they matter.

[@valerielusa8000]

Yeah, it's so isolating. Everytime I see people discussing age gaps people talk about young adults like they're unlovable subhumans incapable of intelligent thought, not realising how it pushes me closer to the "groomer" who actually respects me. Something I don't like about this video is how it portrays things like providing for children's unmet needs or caring about their lives as suspicious or dangerous when those are objectively good things.

[@casstitudy]

@@valerielusa8000 That is so true omg

[@qryptid]

That's what I was thinking, if Penny was the kind of kid who questioned authority, who listened to her gut and said "this doesn't feel right, no" she would have been able to get out of the situation. But kids, especially girls, are raised to listen to adults, to not speak up when you're uncomfortable, to not question authority, because they automatically know better than you.. and unfortunately a lot of people who don't deserve that trust end up misusing it.

[@qryptid]

​​@@valerielusa8000a 50 year old adult using a 17 year old to meet his needs or going out of his way to try to compliment and validate her is inappropriate. these are relationships she, and you, should be having with peers your own age. He does not respect you, he just needs you to think that so you won't reject him. I thought I was so cool when a 35 year old wanted to date me because I was so mature and we were so connected... he was 100% a pdf and I should have been doing those things with my friends, not an adult man.

[@basicindiebro]

As someone who was groomed I watched BH in the middle of being groomed and judged Bojack for his actions without halfway seeing what was weird until he went too far. Unbeknownst to me I had a Bojack in my own life. Watching it now as a 25 year old with the full knowledge of what happened to me makes me feel seen in a weird way, that everyone did in fact excuse it as my theatre teacher being a supportive theatre teacher until it went too far and that Bojack’s behavior is very normalized. And yet at the same time it feels like a safe way to relive my own trauma without hurting myself. What a great show, but I often go back to that arc of the series out of fascination. Edit: Thanks so much everyone. I am doing better. Therapy and personal growth led me to a lot of these realizations. ❤️

[@Hoodie_HD]

I’m so sorry that happened to you, I hope you’re in a safer and more peaceful place now.

[@lifeisadrag7705]

I'm sorry about what happened, I hope you're doing better and are at peace right now. Please take care of yourself. I had watched BJH as a 14 year old, and even when I knew how weird adults were online and how they could be irl, I wasn't comprehending the entire significance of an action like this. I had sympathized with Bojack AND Penny because I saw myself in both of them, and that had needed to be examined personally. While there's room to feel sympathy toward BJ, I think this was apart of my development as a young adult to realize the unhealthy relationships BJ had toward the women in his life, and while not always intentional, still didn't excuse the result due to lack of impulse control.

[@Noah-lo9vb]

So sorry to hear that. I hope you're doing as well as possible now.

[@thesapphireone]

Did you get to talk to your family and friends about it, and did you receive the help you needed? As someone who was assaulted by a family member, but said member kept victim blaming and undermining my feelings and told me to keep it a secret so that we don’t lose our house, or the ones we frequently moved into over the years, and in 2023, I was tempted to tell my family about what happened, but seeing my abuser retreat upstairs, coupled with my mum demanding I tell her what’s wrong, only for me to chicken out and make up a cover story and claimed that someone else assaulted me to save face, and my mum, while she did console me, she told me to get over it, and it made me uncomfortable. I’m scared of both revealing the member and losing our home, or my mother not believing me and thinking I’ve made it up. What should I do?

[@Noah-lo9vb]

@@thesapphireone Wow, that sounds really intense and difficult and I'm so sorry you're dealing with that. First of all, I want you to know that this won't be happening forever. There is a future for you free from all of this. Are you in school? If you are, there's almost certainly a resource there that you can talk to. I recommend seeking help first. There are also MANY hotlines for exactly this purpose. Consider RAINN. They have an online chat as well as a phone number. There are many more you can call if that doesn't work out. Keep me posted if you'd like. I'm here for you, stranger.

[@udtimburrhog6254]

Generally speaking grooming and abusers rarely have some methodological plan for manipulation. It's just how they see and interact with people and relationships. They grew up learning certain ways to talk to people got them what they wanted, and so they kept doing it. Generally they aren't even aware that what they're doing is wrong. That doesn't excuse them in any light, but it does highlight both how important awareness is, and how important depictions like Bojack are. Because that is him. He's not a monster, he's a person who does monstrous things and thinks they're okay until it hurts someone, and unless they realize what they're doing will just go out and hurt people again.

[@IshtarNike]

Yep. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship for 6 years. Once I got out I realised she always talked about her ex's the way she talked about me. She called me lazy etc. She probably did that in every single relationship. It was a pattern but she was completely oblivious to it. Like almost psychotic in the sense that nothing I said or did or how much careful talking could break through and make her realise that she had done anything wrong - ever. But she didn't set out to hurt me (as far as I can tell). But whenever some sort of conflict of interest arrived she made sure she didn't lose out in any way. Which meant I was suffering everything. Her focus was entirely on self defense to such an extreme extent that other people suffered. Intellectually I understand her upbringing was horribly abusive. But emotionally I hope rots in hell lol.

[@LPSlight0]

To add some nuance, most abusers actually do understand on some subconscious level that their behavior is wrong and socially unacceptable. Part of why BoJack's inner monologue is "stupid piece of shit". But more than that, abusers tend to make exceptions to who they mistreat: they will leave bosses or coworkers or some close friends alone sometimes. They will talk very nicely to the local police officer or to a judge or maybe a service worker or clergy member. But behind closed doors with some people, they will be abusive, implying they do have an understanding of what appropriate behavior is and that they react based on what they think they can get away with. It's not always fully conscious, but it is at least semi-conscious.

[@sckmindfrud]

​@@IshtarNikeinteresting and convenient how m en can react emotionally to female "abusers" but when it comes to maIe ones they care more about arguing why he's actually not a monster rather than condemning his actions

[@a.d.d.8813]

​@@sckmindfrudGirl, what? This guy is sharing his experience of an abusive relationship and you decide to overinflate and sideline it with the argument that (some) men are justifying abuse done by other men? And that he's being 'emotional' about his abuse (which he rightfully should be because abuse is not cool, regardless of gender) How was that anyway related to what that guy shared? Are guys not allowed to share their individual experiences and emotions without getting shamed for being a man, and being grouped together with the bad apples all the time?

[@berserker3414]

This person gets it. Abusers are not fictional super villains, some of them don't actively know what they are doing. It doesn't excuse them but it makes you understand how broken and twisted their minds are. It makes you realise how anyone can be one of those, they are regular people walking along with everyone else, if we demonize them we can't see the signs because we assume "charismatic X person" can't be an abuser because they don't seem... Monstrous. No one thought what was behind my father 's façade because he seemed so elegant, polite and calm.

[@thatcanuck5670]

I'm a guy in his 30s, and after a long term relationship ending, I started dating again. I went on a date with a girl who was 20, and even though she was pleasant enough to talk to, her expectations, and lack of maturity made me incredibly uncomfortable and I didnt pursue the relationship beyond dinner and a friendly talk. It is unfathomable to me that someone could quibble over the morality of having a romantic relationship with a 17 year old, it should immediately feel wrong if you're an actual adult.

[@tea_and_guyliner]

Dude, props to you that you stepped back and noticed that lack of maturity. /srs I feel like a lot of other guys in their 20s or 30s barely think about that.

[@hayley1halo2]

I felt skeevy enough doing things with a 19 year old when I was 25. Way over the age of consent but in terms of maturity and circumstances it was just way too weird.

[@terenarosa4790]

What expectations did she have?

[@terenarosa4790]

I'm honestly just trying to figure out why an older guy stopped talking to me. Like, what did I do wrong? 🙃

[@meviques9490]

@terenarosa4790 you did nothing wrong. You'll understand when you're his age. You can't know yet how it will feel but when you're older you def remember feeling what it was like to be younger and how different it is.

[@Eepy-Rose]

I think in general we as a society would be better off if we stopped acting like all people who do bad things are calculating, scheming monsters or that they can't be likable or normal most of the time (two sort of separate and maybe contradictory ideas, I know, but I feel and see both a lot.) Too often I feel like I see bad actions excused if they're done by a person who doesn't seem to fit this box of being a whollistically evil and calculating demon or if you just like that person for whatever reason it may be. BoJack Horseman is an example of a fictional character who gets excused or excessively demonized far more often than he should but you see it with public figures that do bad things where seemingly they're either perceived as evil subhuman trash or didn't do anything wrong with little inbetween. I've been thinking about this recently and this video kinda got me thinking about it more lmao

[@hmm4553]

yup. it does more disservice to survivors.

[@honsools]

exactly. every human being (and, well, horse) has nuances for better or for worse

[@1980rlquinn]

"That's the thing. I don't think I believe in deep down. I kinda think that all you are is just the things that you do." -Diane Nguyen, BoJack Horseman

[@zosiexofficial]

Yeah exactly! I think about this very often. People (especially these invested in tiktok pop psychology) love to think that every evil person is a mastermind manipulator and overuse the term "narcissist" (also they demonize people with NPD) and think that every abuse is thoroughly planned and calculated. It's probably because the thought of them becoming evil, abusive and toxic even though they try to be a good person and think of themselves as good guys (surprise - almost everyone does) is too uncomfortable for them. I also realized another interesting thing. People love dehumanizing abusers, like literally talk about them as if they were a different species. Which reminds me of the situations when women complain about misogyny or some men being abusers and people say "These are not men. True men respect women. These people are boys" No sir, these are adult men. Stop trying to other them, because you're uncomfortable with them being similar to you in some aspects. It's also funny how people get mad when you say (I don't know if KZbin bans for it, so I'm not going to say his name but by "H" I mean an evil german politician of austrian descent that basically made the WWII happen) "H was a human" People automatically get mad at you and think you're trying to defend his actions. No, absolutely not. But he was a human, that's just a fact. Humans can become evil but the thought of it is too uncomfortable to some people. And they love to avoid responsibility (H's views didn't just appear out of nowhere, many countries in Europe were actually pretty antisemitic before he ruled) TLDR.: People are too uncomfortable with the possibility of "normal person" becoming evil, that they hate to think of abusers/criminals as relatable - they think of them as either evil masterminds that plan everyting or just simply non-humans

[@SolarArmadillo]

@@zosiexofficialyup. Once you accept that people who do evil acts are human too you have to accept that YOU are capable of the same thing.

[@pokemonmanic3595]

I remember how frustrating it was to see fans complaining that Penny “changed her mind” about BoJack in Season 6, and accusing her of “over exaggerating her trauma.” Let me tell you something: you can change a lot in two years. Obviously as a 17 year old, Penny desired to be an adult, and put herself in a situation that “adults” do. But again, with time, and experience, and with separation you can realize what a horrible mistake that could’ve been. Imagine if she had caught a STD from BoJack, or gotten pregnant, or worse, become emotionally dependent on him. Yes she made a mistake as a teen, but teenagers make stupid mistakes. And I can imagine she felt incredibly guilty that she exhibited such poor judgement back then she nearly made a life-altering decision like that.

[@coolranchbaby1668]

That is also just really fucked. It often takes time for some people to really fully process the gravity of something that happened. I can think of the years it’s taken me to even acknowledge that something happened from my childhood, let alone recognize it as abuse. I’m sure that Penny’s mom encouraged her to go to counseling of some kind, and it really seems clear to me that Penny had to do a lot of work after he left just to lead a normal life. People really don’t understand how scary it must have been for her. Maybe it’s a limitation of the art style, but tbh I think the unfortunate fact is that many fans of the show, people who are drawn to it, are people who desperately want to absolve him of the shame that comes with the gravity of his actions, likely because they see themselves in him. (Almost reminds me of Frodos struggle to try to save Gollum, how he needed to believe he could recover, because he was scared the same thing would happen to him. Not a direct parallel but makes me think of some of these Bojack fans.) It goes to show that people will bend over backwards to defend men like bojack but never give that same grace to the victims of his harmful behavior (intentional or not.)

[@dakotamabry1645]

​@@coolranchbaby1668 I had been a boys room alone at 19 and he brought alcohol, thought he was being a freind and just wanted to play some games . I didn't understand he was trying to get me drunk to sleep with me .. hes done it before and It took me 10 years to realize that was actually rape and It explained the disgust I felt for him .. and I cried for weeks because I blamed myself for my poor judgment, that man didn't use a condom either - I'm lucky I didn't get pregnant. I dated him for 3 weeks because of that one night .. just because I wanted to believe this was a choice and not a coercive trick to get in my pants and some how I feel like that's even worse

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Plus, her one friend almost died because of him

[@Thebeezzkneezz.]

Sorry but as someone who was actually SA'D and experienced CSA (as a child not teenager) She was over reacting... Literally nothing happened yet, lately it seems like the LESS trauma you have, the louder you are about the little trauma you have faced and its annoying, they speak over people who have experiences much worse, and we cant say anything or else we are "making it a trauma competition" even tho its a vaild thing to point out.

[@lucyandecember2843]

👀

[@katiecampbell958]

No but it's also the fact he says yes only after Charlotte rejects him, so he goes for "the next best thing": her daughter who looks like her

[@katiecampbell958]

AND the balloons being exactly the same as they were with her, that's how she knew

[@seeleunit2000]

Pretty much

[@la_belle_heaulmiere]

I agree, Bojack didn’t intentionally groom Penny, but the result is the same. He took advantage of how a situation worked out as a result of his behaviours. Where he may have intentionally tried to endear (no pun intended) himself to his old flame’s family as a way to insert himself back into her emotions, to see him as the husband and father. But I think that with the conscience understanding that it would be futile well before the event where he actually turned down, he subconsciously had long since transferred his intentions toward Penny. Bojack isn’t man enough for the emotionally and psychologically matured Charlotte and is no competition for her stable and charming husband, and the naive and vulnerable Penny was a perfect foil for a faux reboot. He was going to get the ending he wanted, his whole reason for travelling there, in some form or another. Bojack’s cognizance of the optics shows clearly that he wasn’t never naive to the knife’s edge he was walking. And taking in all of Bojack’s history of behaviour, I don’t think it was just about short term gratification, but also long term self pitying and self loathing that he indulges in as an excuse to continue being a crappy person and abusing substances. I think all you need to do is also look at his relationship with Sarah Lynn to see the patterns. Sure, she was in her 30s during this show, their history dates back to her childhood and the roles they played in Horsin’ Around. If you heard of a celebrity who dated their former co star who was 20 years younger and who once played their biological child/adopted child/step child, even if it was 20 years later, you’d still get the cringe. Sarah Lynn was a damaged young woman and emotionally stunted, vulnerable to someone like Bojack who understands that mental state on a personal level. I love this show because of how uncomfortable it makes me feel, where Bojack is the central character, he does have some redeeming qualities, and sometimes even those get ripped away as different form of manipulation or ill intent. You are able to pity and empathize with his horrible childhood making him the horse he is today. They even gave us the generational trauma by showing his own mother’s childhood trauma and miserable marriage as deep dive into her psychology. But people seem to be willing to give Bojack a pass on tons of stuff with his background knowledge when they still judged her harshly, when objectively, Bojack harmed far more people far more seriously with his behaviours over his 50 years than her whole life time. Is it because she was overtly miserable where Bojack displays more humour? This isn’t a show to consume casually, but one to reflect upon our own biases regarding so many different topics.

[@Invisiblelad]

Wonderful comment, it made me reflect even further

[@Aphelion.s_Abyss]

I absolutely agree with all of this. I often think about the Sarah Lynn thing in relation to the Penny thing because...like...he was LITERALLY trying to act as a father to her and was treating her like a kid, only to sleep with her within the same episode. It's just...showing his nature way before he did that to Penny. People sleeping with people they basically raised, or were father figures to, it seems they often always imployed grooming tactics, like Bojack. Even if not intentionally, like Bojack. And what does that say about them to let those feelings get muddied?

[@seeleunit2000]

​​@@Aphelion.s_Abyss... He only acted like a father figure to Sarah Lynn when they were literally working together on a show. On the show and then he was out of her life until he had to try to get her for his 2007 show which he botched. They didn't see each other again for another 7 years. She was in her thirties, she used his place for a ton of wild parties and messed it up, and while he was pretending to be a TV father for her, it was for his own ego. Not that Sarah Lynn cared; she needed a place to crash, to do drugs, and party. And the same way that Bojack used her ,she used him. It doesn't justify what Bojack did. I just want some nuance. And whenever it comes to Sarah Lynn why doesn't anyone blame her birth mother and stepdad who molested her as a kid ? No one ever brings them up.

[@Aphelion.s_Abyss]

@@seeleunit2000 Honestly I don't believe you. Like what was even the point of this.

[@glupik1234]

​​@@seeleunit2000you don't want nuance, you just destroyed it lmao it is TEXT that she saw him as a f**ked up father figure

[@alphamail8974]

"18 is an adult". Yes. An adult that has to raise their hand to go to the bathroom! It's legal, and it's still creepy.

[@juliahornback2843]

Well college students have to do that too

[@imboredashell8954]

@@seren1517 Depends the class and teacher lol

[@CrimsonBladezz]

Its still an adult

[@maragotka2361]

​@@CrimsonBladezzno its not. Human brain finishes developing in mid twenties just because somebody made 18 up as age of becoming an adult doesnt mean they are right. 18 year olds are still children

[@Ay-xq7mj]

I think your low iq. The whole raise hand to go to bathroom is ridiculous at basically any point past elementary school. Can go to and from school alone cant piss and shit without permission.

[@alex-ju2bd]

23:21 "I feel really terrible that I might've ... [turns] really messed that girl up" Bojack saying that while sitting next to Sarah Lynn and even turning to look at her as he says it is actually chilling.

[@mandalove1858]

People actually defend Bojack with the penny situation? He literally told Penny to “go to bed” after leaving his door wide open for her to come in. Aka go to HIS bed. Also what he did WAS ILLEGAL. New mexico has age of consent at 17 but federal law is 18 and Bojack lives in cali. He crossed state lines to see her which means he is in federal territory now. So yes he was breaking the law still.

[@seeleunit2000]

He didn't come to see Penny, he came to see Charlotte. But it still is very screwed up.

[@mandalove1858]

@@seeleunit2000this is true but the eyes of the law only see that he crossed state lines and would of done the deed with a minor.

[@zombielibrarian]

Honestly I think he put it that way exactly so he could try to take the blame off himself because Bojack rarely takes the blame for things.

[@seeleunit2000]

​@@zombielibrarianIt does seem like it

[@choccymilk8491]

Prefacing this by saying I fully agree with you- but even if she WAS 18 and it WAS “technically legal” I really do not think that would redeem Bojack in any way because she’s still the young daughter of one of his old friends (even without the connection to her mom though the age gap is predatory)

[@mataschmata]

I think what I hate most about media illiteracy in the media/fandom community is the complete lack of nuance. It's either "Bojack is a completely irredeemable piece of shit," or "Bojack did nothing wrong." It's like people have no ability to think about, consume and interpret a character in anything other than black and white. edit: the fact people think i'm somehow defending bojack in this comment really proves my point lol

[@SolarArmadillo]

I think the first interpretation mostly comes from the fact that Bojack contributes so little actual good to the world that if you start to put his actions on the scale it’s slanted really hard in a single direction. Like, it’s been years since I’ve watched Bojack, but I can’t think of a single thing that he does until the very last season that is an unambiguously good and contributes to the people around him.

[@sexygirlmax2019]

whoah mataschmata i used to watch your stuff when i was a kid lol

[@christianandjesse7370]

To be fair, bojack is mostly terrible. Like majority a negative or neutral at best character. He rarely does good things, he often does bad things. He is a bad person. Like the nicest things he did were letting Todd and Diane live with him, and doing PCs show philbert after she signed his name withoit permission. And EVERY day that Todd lived in that house, bojack said horrible things to him that no friend or even stranger should say about you. Like calling Todd essentially useless, waste of space, unintelligent, etc every episode.

[@KingOfGaymes]

I mean bojack mostly does bad stuff so and makes things worse for people.. so calling him a pos isn’t surprising. If he did more good things to balance it out maybe it’d be different but he doesn’t, we really ONLY see him doing bad stuff.. We know why he turned out awful and that it’s not his fault, which there’s sympathy for.. but once he starts making everything worse for others constantly that sympathy stops. He is a bad person, he is selfish, he hurts people even if not fully intentional. If he were a real person, you wouldn’t want to be around him.

[@seeleunit2000]

Pretty much. Even in the comment section here with this video analysis, some don't want to engage in nuance

[@Jrookus]

One thing I want to point out, is that you can treat kids like people, without also treating them like adults. You listen to their struggles, you give them validation for said struggles, but you also do not act as if they are fully developed moral agents. Unfortunately, someone like Bojack could never actually do this, because his early life and relationships were horrible and he became a fully dysfunctional man.

[@ourmobilehomemakeover662]

Yes! Adolescents specifically have more intense emotions compared with adults. They also have a stronger need to fit in with their peers, have strong desires to explore and to test boundaries, and at the same time crave reliable support and guidance from caregivers. You can’t assume that they receive your words and actions the same way a fully mature adult would.

[@averageSkykid]

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE BACK 🗣🗣🗣‼️

[@strangeactuallylegume]

THANK YOU!! So many parents and teachers say “I can either treat you like a child or an adult, which would you rather have?” NEITHER!! TREAT ME LIKE A TEENAGER, WHICH I AM!! No one ever has any respect for us because they can’t bother to have even a little empathy for what is essentially a ticking emotional bomb in the body of a puzzle with a few pieces still missing. Then when we’re left feeling misunderstood and unseen, predators come along and give us the validation we’re desperate for and by the time anyone realizes we need help, it’s too late and they STILL refuse to acknowledge that we deserve respect as teenagers! Not the respect of children (which let’s be honest, peoples’ lack of respect for children is a whole other can of worms). Not the respect of an adult (which shouldn’t immediately be treated like the most sound mind in the room). The respect of a teenager. Nuanced enough to understand that we’re going through a complicated situation already but stern enough to cement boundaries and hold us accountable.

[@angrydeer6011]

To be honest, I can’t shake the feeling that many people who feel traumatized by the attention of a much older person have internalized that trauma due to unnecessary societal conceptualization and pressure. When I was 18 (a year older than Penny), I worked for a few months at a mountain inn with accommodation, where one of my coworkers was a man in his forties who had a noticeable crush on me. He treated me like an equal. We talked a lot, shared secrets, and discussed personal topics like our sexual experiences and LSD trips. Occasionally, we’d drink and smoke weed together after work. We had tons of shared interests. I impressed him and he often said he never thought someone my age could be so self-aware. One time, after we’d both been drinking and were about to go to our rooms for the night, we hugged for a long time as a goodbye. I believe he never did anything inappropriate, and the dynamic between us was entirely mutual. He never initiated any kind of intimate contact, maybe because of my age, but I’m pretty sure that if I had initiated something (especially if I persisted), he would have gone along with it. I absolutely don’t think of him as a groomer or abuser. I believe he was a wonderful, sensitive person who never crossed any boundaries that would have made me feel uncomfortable. However, if I had been younger, more impressionable, and consumed content like the video with that kind of narrative, I might have started viewing something that was entirely innocent-something that left me with good memories-through a distorted lens.

[@PennyLC]

YOUR CONVERSATION ABOUT UNINTENTIONAL GROOMING IS SO POWERFUL that I think it deserves to be an essay in its own right. This is a story that is becoming more and more relevant today because of the Internet. Many lonely men and women walking right into a relationship with a minor not out of any planned out machinations but due to complete disregard of the person they are abusing.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Conventional wisdom says: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's precisely the idea here. Abuse and evil are just as often acts done with good intentions as malicious ones. Intention is not particularly important to morality, because what you wanted to do or meant to do doesn't change what you did or the impact it had.

[@cherrypoo9533]

Even if the situation was technically legal, it’d still be shitty of Bojack because he’s only using Penny to feel better. He would not have done it if he wasn’t rejected by Charlotte.

[@seeleunit2000]

Exactly. What Bojack did was inexcusable. But no one calls out Charlotte for kissing Bojack. Using penny to feel better about his own bruised ego was messed up up

[@fey0217]

i wish people wouldn't stop caring at the legality of these groomer's actions. "oh they're an adult they can make adult decisions" is such a cop out for seeing a 19 year old girl and a 50 year old man together. sure it's legal, but is it RIGHT?

[@pinklove1924]

@@fey0217 it is not right, noone said it was right, it's just not ILLEGAL but it is IMMORAL. Penny was barely an adult(in new mexico) and Bojack was in his 50s. He knew this was wrong, Penny didn't, Penny couldn't comprehend that she shouldn't sleep with Bojack. Bojack as the actual adult should have shut it down.

[@averageSkykid]

​​@@fey0217 fr, reminds me of a lyric that talks about someone who dates girls who are 18. Sure "legal", but uhhhh... they're still a teen?

[@Sanakudou]

It’s not an official term but I often refer to this type of grooming as “passive grooming” as it lacks the level of deliberate intent seen in “active” predatory behaviour. Part of the passivity is in the omission of their own agency as they just “let it happen” because ultimately they get something out of it that makes them not want to stop it. It’s often a slippery slope, they let one thing side, then the next, but they never at any point began with an “endgame” in mind. It might initially be they’re failing to thrive as an adult so like the low-pressure social environment of being around teenagers who, unlike their adult peers, don’t see any value in adhering to adult career expectations or who lack the comparison point to realise they’re abnormally behind in life. After that, it might be the emotional validation of forming emotional connections with the teenager they’ve befriended. Then, they may like the validation of the teenager admiring them or showing early signs of developing a crush on them. There’s often a lot of rationalisation via internally affirming to themselves that it’s okay to continue getting close to the teenager because they don’t “intend” to do anything inappropriate. But that little bit of serotonin and/or dopamine their brain is getting from each incremental breach of boundaries is what leads them to passively allow those boundaries to be blurred, until they’re inevitably crossed entirely. This is where they are still fully responsible for everything that happens as they could’ve and should’ve held firmer boundaries and prevented things well before they crossed the line. Likewise, they should’ve cared about the wellbeing of the other person enough to do the right thing by them. Ultimately, it’s their own selfish prioritisation of themselves and their emotional “needs” that leads to this kind of grooming. They’ll have been depressed, felt unloved, undesired, etc, still fixated on meeting a teenage milestone they’ve long since aged out of ever having (but can’t accept that and move on) or some other relationship issues (regretting who they chose to marry, just gotten divorced, etc), it could also be that they’re really lonely and socially isolated so they go onto a fandom discord server to make friends, however, the only person they hit off with/who is willing to indulge their desire for a conversation turns out to be a minor, and the slippery slope begins from there. Basically, there’s typically some sort of unmet emotional need which in any other context would be something that makes them sympathetic, but no tragic backstory/present circumstance ever justifies or diminishes the harm they allow themselves to inflict on someone else who by virtue of age was far more vulnerable than them, nor does it change the underlying selfishness in their decisions/actions. Abuse of any kind is best defined by the harm experienced by the victim, not by the intent of the perpetrator (intent only matters in a legal context regarding sentencing for crimes), so I do believe it’s correct to call this grooming. However, it’s definitely not the same type of grooming as a child s*xual predator who actively “hunts” victims from the beginning, so this really is something psychologists need to study more and give it an official name to call it by so the discourse around grooming can stop getting bogged down in semantics.

[@saucepan1685]

I love how you worded this, when I was in a situation of "passive grooming" I would rationalize it as "I get the rush of having this crush on him, and he gets the validation and companionship of a young girl fawning over him so its a win win" but obviously in my mind I couldn't comprehend it ever hurting my developing brain

[@clumsyninja925]

Great comment.

[@lizdexamphetamine]

I agree with your overall point, but I think passive is the wrong word. Maybe covert? They absolutely do have to take actions, figure out praises and punishments (even if they aren't premeditating, they notice your reaction to things) and create environments to achieve the end goal so passive feels not quite right.

[@FareawellAi]

Definitely cases likes penny should be studied and to be given a definite term to this kinds of psychological actitudes. It doesn’t reach the same levels of CSA, but it is harmful and leaves a huge impact

[@user_gov]

Beautifully written comment, that intentions don't negate the harm that's caused, and that "Abuse is best defined by the harm experienced by the victim"!!!!!!!

[@captainghoul666]

as an adult who was groomed as a kid seeing people try to excuse Bojack by saying penny wanted it (even a reddit post about a teacher brought this up) truly angers me. I was groomed as kid repeatdly because I would put myself there. Thats part of how it works, I was a fat disabled kid who was the cheese touch kid, you know the one that someone will shout "blank has a crush on you" to embarrass their friends cause the idea of someone liking you is that funny?. Of course the adult telling me I was hot and cool and interesting was appealing. Of course I kept coming back. In truth I think a lot of people want to blame the victim because otherwise they'd have to look at they're responsibility in the situation because I was failed by my family and community long before I was groomed.

[@theotherther1]

I wasn't groomed but I was similarly bullied in school, for being autistic. I spent more time with adults than kids because they were quieter and more sensible. I have never asked my parents to buy me a yearbook in my life and there are no pictures of me in a mortarboard. But if a disabled kid spends more time with adults than their own peers, they sometimes think of themselves as fellow adults and will attempt to interact with groomers the same way, not getting the danger of the situation.

[@Worthless1010]

This is exactly the thing KZbinr Kat Blaque says. Grooming happens when young kids are ostracized and do not get their needs met by the adults around them. People say they care about grooming but will in the same breath call for the demonization of young queer youth. When in fact, this kind of behavior is precisely what causes grooming to work on these kids.

[@Marlin123]

​@@Worthless1010huh, ironic

[@captainghoul666]

@@theotherther1 yeup I was fat kid with a speech disability. Teachers and adults won't make fun of you and if they do they'll actually be fired when you report it. Unlike children who are mean mother fuckers

[@casstitudy]

@@Marlin123 For sure

[@boglenight1551]

As a victim, I just really want to thank you for also exhibiting a example where the predator was female. In no way do I want to imply that most predators aren't male but female predators do exist and it's terrifying as a victim that I'm not considered a victim and if something like that happened again I'd be just as powerless.

[@arashiuchiha1591]

Was also taken advantage of by a female. People often say women are rarely predators but they are. They just operate in different areas. A man might hunt on istagram or tiktok... a woman might hunt on tumblr

[@kiowah231]

@@arashiuchiha1591 Nope. Women generally don’t commit crimes like this.

[@arashiuchiha1591]

@@kiowah231 I was a victim of a female groomer, as a teenage girl but okay, apparently we're doing this now? I guess I didn't try to hang myself from feeling dirty then?

[@kharmacal]

@@kiowah231 ?

[@kittybutch]

thank you for making this video. i was losing my mind in the bojack horseman reddit with all the victim blaming and misogyny. i really appreciate how this show demonstrates how you don’t have to have malicious intent for your behavior to be incredibly harmful. so much violence in our society is committed by people who do not identify as bad people because they aren’t scheming. because of various social hierarchies, some people are systematically enabled to harm others, because they have more access to others and influence over them. bojack’s problem is that he refuses to be responsible and intentional. an adult should know to have boundaries with a child, and regardless of intent, they are responsible for their affects on children. i really hate the demonization of charlotte and penny as responsible for bojacks harmful behavior. not caring about your affect on others can be just as dangerous and caring very particularly about trying to affect someone in a harmful way. especially because much of our society is built to enable people with power abusing that power and protect them from blame. also thank you for mentioning the illusion of agency as well, because that is one of the most traumatizing parts of being groomed. you have to learn to trust yourself after being manipulated, after believing you wanted what someone else wanted you to want. that’s why the victim blaming and the refusal to recognize bojack being responsible is so triggering. because as a survivor, i still have to remind myself it wasn’t my fault. being un-groomed is a long process, and it’s very disturbing how much people are willing to dismiss the harm bojack did.

[@FareawellAi]

Went through an almost similar thing as you with my two abusers. Keep your mind and heart strong and don’t let anyone minimize your pain ❤

[@fluctuhate]

21:17 “he was thinking that verbally turning penny down would make him feel less guilty and he left the door open knowing she’d follow” you have actually summarised the mental manipulation SO well through just that sentence. I’ve never realised the way abusers give false “outs” to their victims, only as a way to solidify their “innocence” in their mind, but now that you’ve pointed it out I’m not sure I’ll ever unsee it. Thank you for this video!!

[@GetBackToWorkSteve]

Yep. They don't want to see themselves as the bad guy, the predator, the pursuer. So they subtly orchestrate a situation where the younger person makes the overt move.

[@alliliciousanimations8727]

This makes me kinda really want PSA posters about the risks and warning signs of grooming around schools. Seeing the behavior in a list like you provided makes it easier to recognize the variety in problomatic interactions

[@bubblegumlipgloss_9614]

Yesss

[@averageSkykid]

No fr PSAs for this should be normalised, but it's such a taboo topic as well

[@misfits9294]

I think with Bojack was...he didn't intentionally groom Penny in the traditional sense. But he DID want to get something out of their relationship. Companionship. Someone he could use to get closer to her mom, even if subconsciously. All of this probably WAS subconscious. But it's still there and seeing as Bojack has no idea of what a healthy relationship is he quickly becomes codependent on this teenage girl which turned into something else. The hurt Penny felt is real either way.

[@seeleunit2000]

Pretty much

[@honeycreek3713]

I’ve dealt with that blurry line of grooming, from an older sibling. It’s so weird, because they were very mentally ill, but they still did what they did. I can’t tell people who are close to be about what happened, they know my sibling as a good person. I have told my dad, not my mom. I really should tell my mom.

[@honeycreek3713]

They are ftm, too. This stuff happened when he was presenting as a female, and it’s stressful to explain that too.

[@perennial-lovegrass]

I'm so sorry, nobody in the world should have to go through that. tell people if youre ready, but it's okay if you're not ready. you deserve to be heard

[@honeycreek3713]

@@perennial-lovegrass everybody always gave him so much sympathy, because he was so mentally ill, deserved all the sympathy in the world. His actions were never to the extent of blatant sexual assault, but there was a lot of extremely uncomfortable stuff. Lift up your shirt so we can compare! (I wasn’t even developed yet.) I want to buy this s3>< toy, I tried to help pay because I didn’t know any better, and then after he bought it, he let me use it? I never got the damn thing on. Exposing me to cornographic stuff, of all kinds, and that was probably the worst. try on this tie-up kinky stuff because i wanna use it later on my gf! Explaining how to “please” yourself, And while collectively sh, showing me how to sh, having secret meetings about his mental health and such. Laying on me if I didn’t want to go to his room, being told to specifically sit on his butt when he laid on his back? commenting on my body and how envious he was of it, making me have a grudge against my parents for what he said back then, then I was a bad kid, and I had to mend my relationships with them. This could convinced me to end up agreeing blindly to hunnping a pillow with an old friend and seeing nothing wrong with it, that’s really gross tbh. Then you get the abandonment issues of him going to mental hospitals over and over, I ended up sleeping in his closet as I watched as he would take medications to make him go to sleep, later he explained that’s what he did when he wanted to die. My parents essentially put me on suicide watch for my older sibling. When he came out as trans, it felt like a betrayal, because I worked so hard to have this “close” bond with my sister.

[@thispersonwriting1889]

@@perennial-lovegrass Exactly this. You deserve to be heard. That starts, sometimes, with listening to yourself. "I really should tell my mom".

[@britneciaaa]

And nobody ever talks about the fact that he LEFT THE DOOR OPEN, he said no but HE LEFT THAT DAMN DOOR OPEN

[@britneciaaa]

Anyway, I knew Sloan wouldn’t let me down with mentioning it

[@averageSkykid]

Fr, reverse psychology type of thing, he knew what he was doing.

[@britneciaaa]

@@averageSkykid EXACTLY

[@JackieMeadow]

This is exactly what makes Bojack guilty. He did not draw a line, he left a trail of breadcrumbs.

[@britneciaaa]

@@JackieMeadow YOU GET IT, exactly

[@FeliksTheGoblin]

13:24 I feel like this should be extended to most abusers. Abuse is almost never intentional, that’s the sad part, as someone who has been abused my entire life and has been diagnosed with PTSD - I’m pretty sure my mother never planned to do the shit she did to me. It wasn’t a ‘calculated scheme’ - it was, just like Bojack said, a result of her being unhappy.

[@clumsyninja925]

People keep saying abuse is almost never intentional but are not giving any valid evidence. You don't need a fully planned scheme for you to still have specific intentions.

[@FeliksTheGoblin]

@@clumsyninja925 well, she didn’t have any sort of intentions. It’s not like she woke up one day and decided ‘I’m gonna be an alcoholic who beats my child’ but it doesn’t mean she wasn’t that. It’s important to say this because people often don’t realise when they abuse someone or do something evil. They have a way of rationalising things to themselves and it should be mentioned to make yourself aware of potential situations where you’d be the abuser and how to actually stop it from happening, early signs etc. No one sits and thinks ‘oh I fucking hate my child I should hurt them’, at least not most people.

[@clumsyninja925]

@@FeliksTheGoblin ok but you can't say abuse is almost never intentional with your only example being something you can only guess about your mom.

[@clumsyninja925]

@@FeliksTheGoblin you guys keep giving the most exaggerated example. I didn't say they sit there and meticulously plan out how to abusive but you don't get to say "most abuse is like this" because of what you experienced.

[@soldiaz7261]

@@clumsyninja925can you give examples or evidence for abuse usually being intentional? or are you just here to shoot down everything everyone else says

[@imthecoolestguyalive]

I believe I had... One to two cases where I overstepped boundaries like this. I was one of the few eighteen year-olds in a community of younger teens, and due to my rather rocky home life, I shared a lot of venty art that I really, really should not have. These children did not have to be my therapists, analysing why I talked about past experiences with assault, dysphoria, and what it all meant. I think the wake-up call came, when another one of the members was called out as a groomer. They were chatting with a minor who hid their age, the topics frequently turning NSFW, and after learning about this, the groomer continued. I did not want to continue. That whole situation broke the mini-community apart, with some people refusing to hold the groomer accountable, and I knew I would never want someone to excuse my behaviours with "He didn't know, and the kid encouraged it anyway." just to preserve _me_ instead of the victim. Due to sharing a couple niche media interests, I had few other people to turn to with my troubles and my fascinations with those media. Some of the things I had to day about those media bordered on suggestive and violent, and it hurts to see now, looking back, how uncomfortable those kids must have been. I was the only one they could talk to about this, they vented to me, they trusted me, and I carelessly let it happen. It never breached some of my thirsty comments on characters I liked, or violent imagery I drew. I can't imagine myself ever taking advantage of a minor, having had my own boundaries crossed when I was young, and I would never want to put another person through this. I'm glad I stopped, when I realised. I still don't trust these kids' words that they knew I meant no harm, and that they were fine in the end. I'm afraid someone else who they trust will take advantage of it, be it pre-planned, or a sponatenous decision just because it's "a convenient moment" for them. If anyone reads this, I strongly advise you to take a good, hard look at the mature and serious subject matter you're discussing with someone, be they a minor and you an adult, or vice versa. Even unintentionally, things like this can spiral into something dangerous, and every child has a right to their boundaries, just as every adult has an obligation to never cross them.

[@heatherheath3834]

Really appreciate your honesty here.

[@imthecoolestguyalive]

@heatherheath3834 This was nerve-wracking to admit, but I think it's good for me, and whomever may need to read this. Nobody really wants to think of themself as a monster, but it's best to nip this shit in the bud, before it escalates. Stay safe.

[@zzkzkzzkzkzk8945]

This is such a discord experience. You vent carelessly thinking it's people your age then you realize it's actually children. Stopped using big servers when I was 22 because of that.

[@mathdonuts7007]

@@imthecoolestguyalive It's a very relatable experience for those of us who've grown up on the internet. We're exposed to so much in our childhood and adolescence, and by the time we grow up, we barely see anything wrong with it. We never think a boundary was crossed. It's just a fact of life. Likewise, I've never actually followed through with anything of the sort, but I've felt that pull to overshare. I've said more than I should around minors. For a while I talked about inappropriate things with my younger sibling, in a poorly thought-out attempt to 'bond'. Hell, I even briefly dated a 15 year old when I was 18, and it just didn't feel right. It's easy to repeat the things you 'learned' growing up, and the pull is even stronger when you're emotionally stunted, raised by emotionally stunted parents, desperate for attention and validation-- especially from those younger than you. I don't think I'll ever understand how people think it's okay to groom minors. But I know where it starts. The truth is messy and complicated, as it so often is. All we can do is try our best not to hurt others.

[@DILLIEY12]

One thing I will always love Bojack for- I once dated a guy who I met when I was 17 and he was 25. We started dating a day or two after I turned 18. His favorite show was Bojack, and he really identified with Mr. PB. I finally realized what a creep he was and dumped him, and the season that came out pretty soon afterwards had an entire arc calling MR. PB out on dating women way too young for him. I really appreciated that his favorite show basically called him out for being a creep.

[@Topdoggie7]

I have fought with so many people trying to say Penny is to blame and she lead him on. She is a minor and he's an older adult! No excuses!

[@seeleunit2000]

Penny never let him on. Bojack only slept with Penny because of his bruised ego since her mother turned him down. I never understood why anyone said Penny led him on. She didn't. She first kissed him, he turned her down, she kept trying and he kept turning it down until he went to her mother Charlotte, he and Charlotte kissed, Charlotte turned him down and he went to Penny because his ego was bruised. That's the whole scenario in this. I originally was of the mind that Penny being 17 should have known better than trying to offer sex to her mother's old friend of 20 odd years. However watching this video is starting to make me reconsider my stance. Penny isn't completely at fault, but everyone keeps missing details

[@PandaLillie]

​@@seeleunit2000My memory shady on the events that transpired, didn't they go to the event like the prom they dropped those kids off at the hospital because he got them intoxicated and he went to go see Charlotte Charlotte rejected him and then Penny came on to him multiple times and then the next scene we see is the mom walking on them?

[@TuRmIx96]

This is a fictional story. Neither her or him exists.

[@kunaihanaki]

​@TuRmIx96 how you (impersonal you being used here) act to stories like this shows fellow victims/survivors of groomers what to expect. it shows they will not be supported let alone believed im not saying you defend bojack or groomers but why would you even think of supporting him? that tells us enough.

[@Topdoggie7]

@kunaihanaki I have said that to people who blame Penny before. Anyone who defends Bojack instead of his victims boggles my mind.

[@KindredKeepsake]

Very well said. I also didn't like how Charlotte wanted Penny to keep quiet about her story, when the girl was dead-set on telling it. She used the slightly-valid excuses of not wanting Penny put on the spot, or having the story twisted by outsiders. But it felt like she was covering up her own tail. *After all, she was one of two adults who let Bojack do this thing for 2 months--and look what happened to her family as a result...*

[@phoebevaughan5095]

I think Charlotte was panicking about the press/media more than intentionally keeping Penny quiet but you are right - Charlotte should have let Penny tell her story if she was ready.

[@yetispaghetti5754]

What I love about Bojack Horseman is that it shows the amount of damage a toxic person can do without even trying, how sometimes it’s habits or behaviors they do subconciously that are the most harmful. He talked to Penny like he does everybody else, and that exactly was the problem. He has very manipulative ways of behaving and communicating, and despite not being conscious of it he’s adapted to grooming practically anyone he finds useful to him.

[@semicolon.advocate]

So true

[@averageSkykid]

Toxic people who don't realise that they're toxic are the scariest, bc they'll never get help and will always remain destroying anything in their path (sorta an exaggeration)

[@olive-grove566]

I cannot express how impressed I am over your research skills and analysis of this very important topic in Bojack. I think this episode more so than any other previous one, really sets the tone of how serious this show is about showing us a very flawed main character. They’ve done such a good job, that it pains me when people defend his actions as okay, when they obviously are not. Thank you for the fantastic break down!

[@ameliawade78]

One thing that Bojack has taught me is that trauma may explain somebody's behaviour, but it NEVER justifies it. Seeing fans of the show try to justify this moment always makes me feel sick to the stomach, and it reminds me just how much of a fucked up place the world really is. A central point of the show is to demonstrate just how twisted celebrity culture can be, and how celebrities get away with destroying people's lives just beacuse they are famous and adored. When people try to justify Bojack's unforgivable acts, its beacuse he's the main character, he's our "hero". And even though the show tries it damndest to show how utterly horrendous and harmful this kind of thinking is, still, poeple demonstrate it by attempting to justify moments like this, just as they do with real life celebrities. Diane said it best "all you are is just the things that you do". Dont tell me its all okay beacuse Bojack - or any real-life celebrity abuser you care to name - is a "good person" deep down. Because honestly, fuck that.

[@user_gov]

And sometimes people just simply aren't good people. NOT because I don't believe people can change, but those very same people have NO intentions of changing. They are forever convinced of their victim mindset, that they could NEVER be in the wrong. They will spend hours trying to tell those around them why THEY are actually the victim instead. It's way more painful for them to make the active choice of choosing to self-reflect VS doing mental gymnastics.

[@averageSkykid]

Exactly. I hate when people see things as black and white, or justify smth clearly terrible. I rly want to watch this show now bc it intrigues me

[@ameliawade78]

@yourboy_BillCipher Oh, you 100% should, as long as you're aware of any potential triggers and are comfortable doing so. I regard Bojack as the best show ever made, and I don't mean that litely. My advice to anyone starting fresh is to see it through at least s1ep8 (if not ep11) to see if its really for you, as early on in season 1, it intentionally pretends to be your typical adult animated show before ripping the rug from under you and revealing itself for the mature and affecting drama it truly is. I'll never forget the way my heart sank through the floor whilst watching those two episodes (and many more such episodes to come), and I wish you all the best in your viewing experience. Bojack is the kind of show that stays with you as it asks such challenging questions of its audience. And at its best, it can emotionally devastate you like no show I've ever seen, and then just as easily offer a level of catharsis and comfort that is always honest and so very human.

[@averageSkykid]

@ameliawade78 tysm for your input, I appreciate it! Time to procrastinate by binging this show :D

[@abridgedplane4417]

When a teenage boy is violent or sexually assaults someone, everyone says he was young and didn't know what he was doing and "made a mistake". Yet somehow when it comes to teenage girls expressing interest in someone much older than them, all of a sudden it's fine and "they know what they want" and they're "mature enough". Make it make sense.

[@Dr3amwav3s]

Stop being sexist you realize women SA and abuse men all the time but it’s normalized and people don’t care people only care when it’s a man SA a woman I mean woman SA women as well

[@twigwigsoso]

EXACTLY THIS- the amount of comments saying well Penny kept coming into him so this is her fault????? she's a child, and here comes an older man, giving her attention and praise, constantly around him and he's a celebrity.

[@keira3963]

@@twigwigsoso Ok but at her age she should know not to do that anyways

[@jsdndksmdkds]

There’s a lot of arguments and positions on this. But I think saying “well when a guy assaults a girl against her will and people say it’s okay. So why don’t people say it’s not okay when a girl consents to a relationship with an older man??” Very strong straw men argument. Assault and consensual relationships are two very different things. I agree that taking advantage of the position you hold over another person lower than you is wrong. But I wouldn’t say it’s anything comparable to assault.

[@theeskrungly]

Getting preyed upon messed with my head so badly. My brain shuts down when children cry, I avoid them as much as possible and I get paranoid and gaslight myself into thinking that I will end up like those that hurt me to begin with. Its such an odd thing I have and I dont know why.

[@seeleunit2000]

My condolences. Perhaps therapy might be helpful ?

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

At least you're aware of it. I'm sure some of that fear comes from a healthy place of understanding that, yeah, it could happen. But it doesn't mean you will

[@user_gov]

My brain also shuts down when I hear children cry, it is so painful for me. I think you're the first person I've seen share this same sentiment. Thanks for sharing

[@TheeKittyPie]

I really appreciate that you mentioned that just because a groomer might not be aware they’re grooming that doesn’t make their actions any less harmful to the victim.

[@brown7180]

Im glad you did bring up how some people groom younger people, not because they want to exploit a power dynamic, but because they don't recognize a power imbalance and unrealistically see them and their victims as peers because they themselves are phsychologically immature. I personally know of more cases like this than of cases of calculated targeting of people because they're vulnerable. Some people really are stuck seeing themselves as kids, leading to them dis-connected from other adults their age and inappropriately involved with younger people that WOULD have been perfectly okay if they weren't an adult and their victim a child.

[@Sootielove]

This is a really good highlight for why there are so many regulations around how teachers, for example, act around children. Most teachers don't enter teaching for the intent of abusing children, but when you allow teachers to blur boundaries and act familiar with them, it gives them opportunities they might not otherwise have, and opportunities represent risk they might have a impulsive day and allow themselves to think it's an exception. Unfortunately, power dynamics do corrupt. Even if people don't have the intent of abuse, it still creates circumstances where one party can't readily say no to another. Even if a boss and employee consider each other equals, one will always have the opportunity to leverage their power against the other and fall into bad habits. Most criminals aren't born evil or have nautrally twisted minds. They have opportunity and either the apathy or desperation to take it

[@kaitlyn1689]

I never noticed how deliberate some of the shows choices are in this episode. The secret part had completely slipped my mind, but it's such a good example of how immediately in appropriate their relationship was. Incredible analysis

[@Dancinglemon]

I really appreciated that this show didn’t shy away from showing the consequences that Bojack had on his victims. Their stories mattered too. There’s the actress who struggles to find work again because she’s traumatised by him strangling her and how it now gives her the reputation of ‘being hard to work with’, Sarah-Lynn’s death and Penny suffering from anxiety and being so uncomfortable seeing him again. I’m glad she got to say her side of the story from an adult perspective.

[@LolCow.Complilations]

“You’re bojack horsemen. There’s no changing that” Bojack is his own worst enemy and I agree I love that you don’t wonder how his victims felt-they tell him and us clearly

[@bleh9092]

Everytime I see the fandom defend Bojack or his actions, I just wish they would take a step back, clear their minds, and realize who they are going to bat for. Amazing video as always btw! Floored me with how eloquently you surmised my feelings around this episode and the unfortunate discourse surrounding it.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

The weird thing is how they use this one example of how Bojack isn't bad, then ignore the dozen other examples. And the thing is, Penny is groomed

[@llcdrdndgrbd]

Isn't the whole point of this show that it's a dark show about a bad man

[@averageSkykid]

​@@llcdrdndgrbdsomehow putting the bad guy as the protagonist gives people bias

[@NouraZahle]

Each season he does something worse and keeps trying to justify it. He’s an excellent example of a manipulative narrator.

[@seeleunit2000]

He's not really narrating this show. You're literally seeing him and the things he does. But he definitely needs to learn to be better at holding himself accountable

[@NouraZahle]

@@seeleunit2000 he does present information misleadingly. That’s why it hit so hard when we found out the time gap where he could have called for an ambulance for Sarah Lynn, but he did nothing instead. The audience felt misled.

[@guyferrari8124]

I don’t necessarily think its maliciously manipulative as a narrator, I think its more him trying to justify to himself

[@averageSkykid]

​​@@guyferrari8124 self justification is one of the worst things

[@something-from-elsewhere]

The whole "intent" thing added years to denying my own trauma from literal childhood molestation because it was framed in an "instructional" way (and i literally get flashbacks lol, the cognitive dissonance was real with that one). Honestly I don't fully understand why what happened happened, nor how much worse it could have gone, but I'm never going to because I've estranged the perpetrator and I doubt he even remembers it, so....

[@averageSkykid]

I think? I have unprocessed trauma? It doesn't feel like trauma bc I didn't understand it at the time either and now it's forgettable to me, mostly because of my awful memory. I dont know if this'll affect me in the future or if it'll forever be smth that feels "weird" to think about but not necessarily traumatising? Idk how to explain.

[@something-from-elsewhere]

@@averageSkykid Worth noting that memory loss is an _extremely_ common outcome of trauma, especially childhood trauma if that's relevant, but I'm lacking a lot of context and hardly qualified in any case. I definitely think it's atvl something worth examining and potentially seeking help for, if you've the means. Imle it's oft extremely difficult to identify the root causes of troubles we have, I didn't even identify my diagnosed MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) as an actual issue until around a couple weeks ago -w-'

[@averageSkykid]

@something-from-elsewhere ah alr, ty for the advice, and good luck to you! I hope you're doing better now regarding your situation

[@something-from-elsewhere]

@@averageSkykid Happy to help and ty, I am! Had a much bigger situation as well at time of writing that comment but it's been resolved and I'm breathing again haha so...

[@KarishmaChanglani]

This contradiction has bugged a part of my brain wanting to excuse Bojack while the other knowing there is no excuse.I think you finally sorted it all out and made me realize the part of me that had learned to normalize this behaviour.

[@cosmic_seabunny]

Honestly the whole “Adult not being aware that they are the adult” is something that needs to be addressed more often! As an adult it finally hit just how…DISGUSTING this entire episode was. I am the oldest in my friend group and it wasn’t something that hit me when I was 16 (most of my friends were 3 years apart) and I would just joke around with them and consider us good friends and equals. But when I turned 18 and 20 I started to see them more as individuals I needed to be more patient, sensitive and understanding with. It especially hit me when I worked at my job that had 16-18 year olds. These are kids, they’re still impulsive, emotional and (to a certain extent) stupid. Kids need to be protected and guided. And now that I’m an adult (barely considered, but still an adult) It fills me an unspeakable amount of rage that some people have the audacity to see a *kid* as an adult. I DO NOT care how “mature” they look or seem, THAT IS A KID and no adult has the right to try and force them into a role that they are not yet prepared for.

[@user_gov]

The issue with the "maturity" argument as well, is that more often than not that maturity is a result of extreme repeated trauma. People in these kinds of situations need to find people similar in age who have gone through similar things, who are "mature" for their age as well (But also have other fun, regular things in common, otherwise it's just a trauma bond, which I relate to too much unfortunately)

[@averageSkykid]

Exactly, even as a teen I see people just one year younger than me as a kid and it feels weird to be around them 😭 but I also feel weird being around adults

[@twigwigsoso]

i was groomed constantly as a kid and god, I don't get it. Even talking to an 18 year old at 20 i felt like, "god this was me at 18, oh" I hate more than anything, the maturity argument, because the same person who says "she's mature for 17" is the same type of person who told me i was such a mature 14 year old

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The way my brain works, I cannot see anybody as anything but peers or equals. There are no details about them that change the way I view them, outside of their own personalities and traits. As a result, I make active efforts to never engage with children at all. I can't stand being around them, because there do need to be separations between how a person interacts with a child vs how they interact with an adult. Not even just sexually, I'm asexual, and still actively uncomfortable existing near children because I can't help but treat them the same way I treat everyone else. I wouldn't describe this as not being aware that I'm an adult. More that I can't see adults as being inherently more mature or better at making decisions than children. A rather traumatic history shredded any illusions I had toward the notion that age or experience can improve someone's judgment.

[@TrueEnergizerBunnies]

BoJack did a horrible thing with Penny and she was just a child at the time and cant really be blamed. But I also cant help wondering about Penny's parents. Who on earth lets their teenage daughter go off alone with a man they barely even know at best or have had past bad experiences with at worst? I mean, even if BoJack was a good friend that they knew well, its still weird as heck to allow an unrelated, middle aged man to take your teenage daughter to a school dance especially one that is known for having romance and flings and possibly drinking and drugs afterward. BoJack takes most of the blame here but I feel like Penny's parents should have known better, especially Charolette who knows how BoJack really is and had past experiences with him. She knows he's a drinker and drug user. She knows how he is with women. She knows how impulsive and reckless he is, typical hollywood type. I dont think BoJack is necessarily a pedo in the way that he's attracted to young girls or that he went out of his way to groom Penny. We all know he was after Charolette and maybe was hoping she'd leave her husband for him if he just showed her how cool and level headed and family oriented he could be. This explains why he acted the way he was those 2 months, and taking Penny on driving lessons and stuff. I dont think he was trying to groom her from the start, he was after Charolette. But he realized later after he and Charolette kissed that they were never going to happen and then used Penny as a substitute because she was convenient, looked like her mother, and seemed interested herself (thats not her fault, she was a child that didnt know better). That doesnt make what he did any better. Perhaps even makes it weirder and more gross that he was just using her pretending she was her mom.

[@merchantfan]

I think that's the family grooming part of it. They get used to unusual behavior. You see it especially with Hollywood cases bc celebrities kind of groom the public as part of becoming a celebrity. People like you and think they know you even if they've never met you

[@worldwideraye1157]

BoJack is 100% guilty for his actions, and Penny’s parents are 100% guilty for their actions. I think there’s a fallacy where we kinda split the blame. But that’s not how it works. Parents should have protected their daughter, but BoJack also knew what kind of person he was and was ok with putting a young girl in that situation.

[@korogumi]

The fact that people say that Penny is partially to blame is scary. It doesn’t matter, even if she consented, she’s still 17. She is the child in this situation. Is it the responsibility of the adult to deal with inappropriate contact, and playing into it is repulsive.

[@bevanmorgan3946]

This show wasn’t subtle. If people think that what Bojack did was ok, then you’ll never be able to get them to come around. These are the same people who call Walter White a ‘badass’ because they don’t remember how he dissolved a little boy in a barrel of acid. Bojack is one of the most vile characters in TV history. Some folks just don’t have any media comprehension…at all

[@hudsondunn8385]

Wait I don’t remember that?

[@laurendearnley9595]

​@@hudsondunn8385 the kid that found them stealing from the train in the desert, and is shot by the slow blonde guy.

[@hudsondunn8385]

@@laurendearnley9595 Oh yeah. TBF out off all the bad stuff he did that one should not count since the kid was already dead. Like I feel like poisoning Jessies Girlfriends Kid was a better example of Walter being evil.

[@roseystudio10]

"I didn't groom anyone" is a real line Bojack used during an interview, and it's a bullshit claim.

[@amcat8585]

Thank you for this video. My groomer fits this description and I’ve heard the argument “he was just emotionally stunted” so many times. I was *15* he was *20* emotional age is NOT THE POINT. It is how the VICTIM is affected by the ABUSER that matters

[@natachasmith2539]

21:22 oh my god the open door... i never noticed the open door, i always wondered what changed in those few second but that it, he just didn't close the door

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Age and grooming aside, this was still an unhealthy relationship. Even if Penny was much older, Bojack would still be at fault and still wrong. Penny being much younger and the power imbalance being so large is just the cherry on top of an already bad situation

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Age is not the problem with grooming, it's the power imbalance. And that's something that so often gets missed.

[@SkiggsMoDiggs]

it makes me sad how surreal it feels to see a comment section full of people with actually normal views on the age of consent

[@storybooksystem]

i really, really needed to hear this. thank you for making this video. i just finished reading my dark vanessa, in an attempt to process some things, and intention was the sticking point for me. it was difficult not to excuse the actions of those who harmed me, because they were not methodical and premeditated like those of jacob strane. but i see now that those actions had the same consequences for me, regardless of intent. i feel that this video touches on a key point that has been absent from larger discussions of grooming and csa. what you've done here is really important, even if just for one person's healing.

[@SloanStowe]

Thank you so much for telling me this. MDV was a huge mental touchstone for me when I was writing this script. Initially wanting to understand BoJack’s intentions felt eerily similar to how I’d thought about Strane. After reading MDV, I immediately wondered if Vanessa was the first student Strane abused, and if, despite his-as you said-much more premeditated and calculated grooming, he ever genuinely believed that he loved her. And then it occurred to me that those are all the wrong questions. Instead of asking ourselves what they intended, we should consider and try to understand our own need to know. These things are so important to Vanessa because they “justified” or “validated” her abuse in a way, i.e. “I just really need it to be a love story.” But even when she views Strane in the most complementary light, it doesn’t alter or diminish the darkness he instilled in her, and we see those effects even when Vanessa doesn’t. Thank you again for sharing. It means a lot to know that my video helped you. Wishing you all the best

[@AM-ji4mv]

THIS. The lack of intention to do harm doesn't excuse the carelessness of causing it.

[@mirindaz96]

Thank you for this video! I’ve always felt like the conversation on grooming was reductive and odd, but I could never pinpoint why. Especially the focus on the age of consent is ridiculous to me, because maturity has more to do with your ability for independence and to recognize and avoid deception.The problem with acknowledging that is that we cannot legally quantify the moment where you’d “correctly” gain agency, so the number is a lower bound with perhaps many people “above” the age being groomed. It’s especially sickening when people talk about the age of 14 in Japan as if that’s not horrific… Personally, decoupling intent of perpetuator from consequences on victims, at least to some degree, is beneficial for both the victim and the perpetrator. The victim is free from ruminating over the events and can focus on healing their pain, the perpetrator is left without the easy cover-up and may need to actually do the improvement work instead of deflecting to their own intentions and traumas. It’s more productive and less abuse-able at the same time.

[@seeleunit2000]

I think you might make a point there. It's worth thinking about

[@peachesandcream22]

What's even worse is that "14 in Japan" is already outdated. The majority of prefectures in Japan rose the age of consent to 16-18.

[@christianandjesse7370]

​@@peachesandcream22and Even then, most European countries or countries like Japan with a historically lower age or consent, it's mostly to help older teens, mainly males, not end up with legal issues for dating a girl at his school. Like a 19 year old boy dating a 16 year old girl can be illegal in some places. That's not necessarily reasonable. They didn't necessarily intend the age of consent to make it common for 25 year Olds to date 16 year Olds tho. Hence why many places have "Peter pan laws"

[@toffeefeathers]

If a good, doting, responsible parent uses their authority over a child to gain sexual favors, is that not grooming? Intention does matter, but he still chose to use that positive relationship AGAINST her, that’s the part that matters.

[@gummybunny8798]

as someone who was molested when i was a kid you don’t understand how much you’ve helped me face my memories i thank you so much for talking about this with shows like this.

[@hnaw1360]

People seeing grooming as a calculated thing are like 50% wrong. Watch literally ANY kind of KZbin video on predators and you'll see most of them are just desperate for ANYONE but that doesnt make it any less grooming. Thats what Bojack is. He was desperate for anyone and he knew Penny trusted AND wanted him. He groomed her untintentionally, literally only just trying to be there for her but what made it grooming is the final act of attempting to make things sexual. It doesnt matter he was lonley or would have done it with anyone. It matters that she was a child that trusted him...

[@Smoll_Fawn]

As someone who was groomed and taken advantage of by a neighbor... Yep... He was in his late 40s and I was 17. He gathered intel on me over time and he knew I was being abused at home by my father. My groomer would make me feel safe and understood. He would take me to Taco Bell because he knew I loved it and that my father didn't have a car so I didn't get treats often. One day my father said he knew that I was having sex with the neighbor. (I wasn't and was appalled by what my father said.) My father knew I was being groomed and did nothing about it. Well when I turned 18, the neighbor got me drunk and r**ed me.... When I saw this happening in BoJack I was so disturbed... It is very accurately portrayed and scary.

[@TheHuskyK9]

Anyone blaming Penny is a big red flag. Bojack is the adult here, he KNOWS that what he was doing was bad and he KNOWS that the situation is creepy, yet he continued it to the point where he almost slept with her. And he wasn’t even into Penny like that, he wanted Charlotte but after getting turned down, he basically said “Well, Penny is the closest thing to Charlotte so let’s do it”, which makes him even more selfish and shallow.

[@jonnytorres664]

It's scary that it's also not the first time Bojack does this too, look Sarah Lynn, he even argues that it's not bad bc Lynn is now older but he still Groomed her, not on purpose but he still did it.

[@alexliddell3171]

A pattern I've often seen with groomers (intentionally or otherwise), is that they seem to be fixed in a child-like mentality, usually from something that happened in their own childhoods. Because of this they have no concept of appropriate boundaries between adults and children. Is it an excuse? No. It's BoJack's constant failing as a person that he has no sense of these boundaries, recognises that he's not a mentally well person, yet does absolutely nothing about it or even fully remove himself from situations where this becomes a problem. So he's doomed to have these little "accidents" and he can just shrug it off by being "oh woe is me I'm so broken" self-deprecating. This is rare example in media of what I would say is a more common type of abuser who is harder to vilainise by wider society because they're not moustache twirling villain.

[@kisskarlys]

This video is so validating, I was older than Penny, in university and a teacher groomed me, I never said it out loud because I always felt it was wrong on me because "he didn't intend to do it" but he did, he created scenarios where I could be vulnerable, where he could gained my trust and hear about my feelings, even if nothing particularly wrong happened I was messed up, I ended crying and scared, and I'll never forget how vulnerable he made me feel. Thank you for this video.

[@Absurdtheistic]

9:18 If you have friends that are children, be afraid of how your words and actions impact them. This fear is good, because while you may know in your heart your a safe individual, that doesn't change the impact you may accidentally have. It doesn't change the damage you can do as the adult. If you make friends like this and don't respect this fear, you lose it and thats a one way ticket to traumatizing a child. Don't do that. Be an adult. Be afraid.

[@cloverhollister]

whyyy are or would you be friends with children

[@royalfizzbin2131]

@@cloverhollister there can be contexts where adults and children can interact in an intergenerational friendship way that isn't inherently abusive. for instance if a 16 and 25 year old share shifts at work and can be friendly and maybe talk about a tv show they both like and stuff that's not necessarily a bad thing. but if you're the 25 year old in that scenario you can't really treat your teenage coworker the same way you would your other friends in your mid 20s.

[@Absurdtheistic]

@cloverhollister that's actually really simple, I do community theater. I have friends all the way from older than my late great grandfather to people just entering high school. Theirs also co workers and I have a couple of family friend in their mid teens

[@Absurdtheistic]

@royalfizzbin2131 exactly this!! You can be friends with people of any age, but if you're the elder, you have to be responsible and cognizant of your words/actions at all times

[@MiniMinorMermaid]

Yeah honestly adults should not be friends with children. Just don't be friends with children

[@sarahh_99]

This whole arc really did prove another point Bojack's writers were trying to make in a way. We've been with Bojack through so much of his life and empathize with him to the point of justifying his bad behavior, just like victims of the abuse or people who know/are related to the abuser, "that wasn't grooming," "he didn't groom me," "maybe it was my fault," "I *know* him, he wouldn't do that," it's all things I hear across forums and videos that talk about this part of the show. And I'll admit, I almost became one of these people, I just couldn't believe that this character I was following could stoop so low among other instances. But I took a step back, and watching these scenes again really disturbs me in the way it's supposed to.

[@tailedgates9]

Defenders who claim "Penny had agency" are the same type of edgelords who defend villains' horrible action under the guise of "Well wouldn't you-" I freaking hate it....

[@odd-eyes6363]

She had agency, but that doesn't remotely make Bojack's action justified

[@NerdilyDone]

No, not true at all. Giving Penny 10% of the blame for a situation she put herself in is not in any way defending Bojack. He's majorly responsible, but she's old enough to learn to watch out for unwholesome behavior. So it's also the fault of her parents for not having proper discussions with her about it.

[@opnuul]

ugh god 0:43 these reddit post headerz 💀 it's gonna be a long video huh.

[@gaiapsyche]

It all boils down to one thing: even if someone did all these without intentions, you "failling" to ackowledge you have advantage in the power dinamic, and seeing the victim fall in that place, and not pur boundaries about it, is the last nail in the coffin. The first refusal, I think makes that very clear. It makes clear Bojack knew he had power over Penny, he knew it was wrong, and he doesn't put a clear enough barrier to really stop it, keeping it open, and later on, when plan A fails, he uses plan B.

[@daphnea5447]

This is one of the best KZbin videos I have ever seen. You treat this concept with the nuance it truly deserves and put words to feelings I’ve had about not only this show, but my own life experiences, for a long time. Well done.

[@wygolvillage2637]

Seeing a video that finally acknowledges that grooming shouldn't be defined by an unrealistic intentional long-con (that hardly ever exists in actual cases) is extremely validating. Thank you. I see grooming as a manifestation of the power dynamics in society- age, gender, etc as applicable- and when a dynamic is in place, there will always be people who exploit that dynamic whether consciously or not.

[@REY.3727]

I seriously love your analysis of this show on a deeper level. I feel as though every video I am recommended nowadays is just some shallow clickbait, however this video feels like an intentional lesson that is carefully put together by you. I really appreciate the level of thoughtfulness you have put into this video, and I just want you to know it doesn't go unnoticed.

[@starrr3946]

I think people can be abusive, cruel, and manipulative without intending to. The general thesis of the show is exactly what Diane says to BoJack, that she doesn't believe in a deep down and that people are what they do. No matter how someone intends for something to happen, it's not a good enough excuse in situations like these. I do think intention is important and should be taken into consideration, but never at the expense of the victim and always on a case by case basis. Great video!!

[@TheVainGame]

I'm a bit late but I wanted to add something my mom told me as a kid that was also repeated through repeated watches of Disney's Pinocchio in Spanish: Don't do good things that look bad. And don't do bad things that look good. I'm so thankful to have come across this video and it highlighting the themes of intention. I know and understand that respect and responsibility is not gender exclusive, but as an adult male, I feel more men and boys should think it over before they take a step. Subscribed after this first video due to such clear, concise and well thought out essay's presentation.

[@kimberlyterasaki4843]

Also his relationship with Sarah Lynn shows that despite knowing her as a child and not acting in a way that's technically grooming, he still had no qualms about sleeping with her and dragging her out of sobriety to make himself feel better.

[@moneymaker8815]

Tbh, I felt this while watching Juno. I didn't know how to describe the situation aside from unintentional grooming. But to me, as an adult, they should know better about how their actions can influence the child's feelings.

[@llcdrdndgrbd]

Absolutely, Jason batemans character was 1000% an unintentional groomer, he had similarities to bojak too being an immature and shallow man

[@InsidiousClouds]

When i first watched bojack, i was a teenager. I thought Penny was overreacting when she was older. She clearly wanted to be with Bojack, she initiated the relationship. I was upset with her 'sudden change of mind' because at the time i was in a similar situation. I initiated a relationship with an older person. And now, years later, I feel so connected to Penny as she was grown up. I feel like so much has changed, and that i really wish i listened to the people who told me it was a bad idea. This video is really helpful for me. Because now im finally putting the correct words to what happened to me. The adult i initiated with was not malicious, they didnt calculate or isolate me. Even now im confident they did none of that on purpose. But their desire for a close relationship, and lack of appropriate boundaries really damaged me.

[@ThePupYT]

I think much of the nuance behind Bojack's shady behavior has to do with how much of it is subconscious. Bojack is a selfish person at his core and often doesn't consider the kind of damage his actions can potentially cause to others who are impacted by said actions, all of this regardless of the intentions. Edit: in this case with Penny, it certainly didn't help that Bojack drove to Ohio during his bender to stalk Penny to see if his past actions did damage her just to feel better about himself and only to make things worse in the process (ironically, she probably would've gone on with her life just fine IF he didn't tried to reach out to her in the first place)

[@seeleunit2000]

Exactly

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

And Bojack probably would have been better off. But then, that isn't Bojack

[@g_way]

This video is so important. I haven't seen Bojack, but this type of "unintentional" groomer is never brought up in conversations about grooming. I think these kinds make up most groomers - adults stupid enough to go after children usually aren't smart enough to concoct a master plan. They just know how to manipulate, whether that's consciously or not.

[@snowydreamer3052]

This is honestly one of the best analysis I've seen of what happened in this plot

[@Rozdlc]

I forgot their names but my sisters and I were talking about an actor who married a 15 year old with her parents permission. They were on a lot of reality shows too. When the girl turned 25, they got divorced. She later gave an interview saying how weird it was that everyone glorified their relationship.

[@FrancisR420]

It's a bummer that all of those details does not narrow down who you're talking about.