Gundam Seed: A Sanctimonious Series That Misses The Point

[@racekitty]

The moment you realize Suzaku and Euphemia(from code geass) are deconstructions of Kira and Lacus

[@Matanumi]

Suzaku is far more like athrun though.... and lulu is more like light.... nothing like Kira

[@AtomicZero]

glad someone else peeped it!

[@joshualittlejohn72]

Suzaku and lelouch are more like trieze Kushrenada and Zechs if you really think about it...

[@marvelousTUD]

Yep! One of the reasons I dislike Seed is because Code Geass does a lot of the same stuff while being way better (and not having super ugly character designs)

[@Joshua_N-A]

@@marvelousTUD for some reason Hirai Hisashi's design in Fafner especially Exodus doesn't bothers me.

[@QuintusAntonious]

"There aren't any victors, just survivors." You nailed it. This is Gundam at it's best, and why the original series was so innovative and impactful.

[@theocan]

Although I do like it when the victors are politically driven. Like Iron Blooded Orphans, where the villains absolutely emerge as the victors and ultimately make the world a better place, abolishing and banning the use of child soldiers and transforming Gjallahorn into a democratic system. But they won via the usage of highly illegal weaponry and actively refusing a surrender. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth, but you know that ultimately, things are far better in their hands than the protagonist's. It's the gray zone that I think really represents Gundam.. God I love it!

[@aliesterus1.023]

@@theocan The antagonists actually won a phyrric victory, they had wanted to keep the original system in place, something impossible with Idiok's death. The good that came of all came from necessity, rather than because it came from a desire to actually better people's lives.

[@entropy11]

"I like Athrun." Then ho boy you do not want to watch Seed Destiny on Mwu: "I'm glad Seed didn't undo this legitimately great moment" Oh boy, bro

[@YukitoOnline]

Mu La Flaga

[@FatalShadow13]

My biggest problem with Destiny, Shin Asuka...

[@corvus9359]

What is this "Gundam Seed Destiny" you speak of?

[@gabrielhawk]

@@corvus9359 the sequence to Gundam seed

[@HajimotoSaito]

The series' biggest problem to me is its production staff. Mu returned because someone up there liked him so much. Then there was something about its director? or whoever it was that was experiencing marriage problems and he/she couldn't separate his/her personal life frome work and it affected the series. Anyways, the reason I said the production staff is the problem is due to the fact that SRW Z had a likable Shinn. Even his VA prefered SRW Z Shinn.

[@User_Unknown86]

If I remember correctly. The reason Flay was sidelined was due to the Japanese audience hating her to the point where Sunrise told the writers to get rid of her.

[@supermacdasha1999]

A company shouldn’t be changing a show because people don’t like a character

[@Megalopros]

@@supermacdasha1999 the opposite is also true, a narrative should stay true to its creative vision, but sunrise and profit margins may want certain character to...not die

[@teslashark]

No, she's planned to die in the beginning, and is supposed to have a remote control bomb on her from either Rau or Azrael

[@rrrrr0_]

I would love to have a source for this

[@zerolsr2228]

Sadly the creator of Gundam only got to create Gundam because of Bandai toy company employing him to create mecha anime for them with the end goal of creating a toy line they can sell. This is most noticable with the orginal series with Char having a new mobile suite every week. He created a few series for them before gundam. At some point Bandai even attempted to make a series that was a complete rip off of gundam but with a new title. Victory had a sequel greenlit till it didn't. Bandai decided to go with G Gundam because Victory didn't make enough money. On several occasions Bandai brought on new writers, animators, and mecha designers to make a new series to sell models for them. The original creator of gundam made Victory than didn't make another series till Reconnaissance In G, he didn't make 0083, 0080, 08th Ms Team, Wing, G, X, Seed, Destiny, and 00. I think he may have done Turn A so my former statement maybe wrong but he didn't work on any of those I listed. Sadly the only reason he got to make gundam was because of Bandai and it wasn't even planned at the start of his employment with them he made like two other series before gundam. When he made gundam they told him to make a enemy of the week so they can sell toys. So ultimately sadly Bandai had the ultimate decision making over gundam and still dose to this day. Example them bringing Kira back to try to bring up the numbers for Destiny

[@MobiusOneEngage]

"Athrun is a good character with realistic motivations, and I wish he was a protagonist" "Mu La Flaga's death was necessary and would be a big shame if SEED or Destiny backpedaled on this" "I'm 10 episodes in to Destiny" *insert Knuckles "Oh no"

[@Matanumi]

Mwu would've been fine if he stayed as the bad guy

[@sim.frischh9781]

NEVER watch a review video on a show you are currently watching. They tend to have SPOILERS! I myself don´t care about getting spoiled details as i still want to see myself what actually happens, but others do.

[@beasterbunny217]

This is hilarious and true at the same time. I just finished Destiny so this gave me a good chuckle

[@lukesewell295]

Pppppppppllpppp

[@kealam8922]

I’m only 16 episodes into SEED and now I have to live through the series knowing Mu La Flaga is gonna die

[@arx3516]

What i liked in the original Gundam is that despite the war being ugly and tragic it still had to be fought, Zeon had to be stopped, it couldn't be solved with a big hug. In my opinion chatacters like Ramba Ral being likable, respectful and honourable adds realism,(humans have faceted personalities and have both good and bad sides) but it doesn't make him a friend, he had consciously chosen to fight for a faction that wanted to conquer Earth. Maybe if the Federation had treated Sode 3 more fairly the Zabi wouldn't have seized power and started the war, but after it started there was no turning back, every life lost, be it Zeon or Federation, was a tragedy, but fighting was the only option. If i have to be honest i think that Mobile Suit Gundam is one of the best stories about WW2 ever written.

[@ericcaulfield4477]

I don't remember Lacus ever saying it could be stopped by a hug. She seemed more to think the war had gone too far in Seed. Which is basically what her father had said. She basically just inherited all her father's idealism like Char did his.

[@midgetydeath]

I think Ramba Ral had assumptions about Zeon’s goals and accepted the platitudes from their rulers too readily and that is why he failed to realize how far Zeon had strayed from its original purpose.

[@midgetydeath]

Gundam wasn’t about WW2. The closest would be how the Allies treated Germany after WW1. Which resulted in exactly what the US had warned of at the time.

[@AltronKopaq]

”Im 10 episodes into Destiny” Oh no, you’re about to see a series do much more than shoot at its own foot soon enough.

[@roneherushin4638]

It blows off the entire leg

[@Dominickun24]

Had SOME promise RIGHT till it blows both it's legs off.

[@Gomeshock]

Seed: Well, I just finished planting all these landmines. Destiny: Oh boy, time to tap dance!

[@jackau08]

Well, Fukuta claims destiny is a show (from day one) about mr Mrs Yamato’s path to dominate and conquering humanity.... shin and co are the good guys ...

[@aztecklover69]

Altron indeed!! while SEED was great; destiny is a dumpster fire, ai could not get past of episode 4 before saying NOPE.

[@durrtan000]

The moment that shows how little the writers knew what they were doing was one of the changes made from the original to the remastered version. That change was Nicol's death. In the og Kira's first reaction was to go for the kill, even though he was in no danger since the Blitz had no beam weapons at the time. Kira thought the battle was over from what he was saying to Athrun, ywt he still went right for the cockpit when the Blitz showed up. That is suposed to be the moment where Kira realizes what the war has done to him. He didn't kill someone to protect himself or his friend, it was his automatic reaction. By making it an accident in the remaster it totally undermines that character moment.

[@Matanumi]

It was also bullshit because he killed a few becue grunts with little to no remorse.

[@EscapeVelocity11186]

Except in the episode before that when Kira was in Orb, he was talking to Cagalli about his frustration regarding the war and how he didn’t believe killing could bring an end to the war. All of the people he had killed up to that point, including Waltfeld, were weighing heavily on him. Kira purposefully killing Nicol after that conversation doesn’t really make sense at that point, especially since he doesn’t go out of his way to try to kill anyone else - making it a reflexive response on Kira’s part because Nicol was threatening him works much better.

[@durrtan000]

@@EscapeVelocity11186 I got to admit that I'm confused by your response. You start by acting like you're refuting my point about Kira killing Nicol, only to then agree with my point about Kira killing Nicol on impulse, then finally to claim that the remaster makes that story moment better than the original scene. Keep in mind that in the og animation when Nicol attacks Kira that Kira responds by ducking the attack and swinging the beam sword into the Blitz's cockpit. In the remaster Kira steps back and Nicol runs into the edge of the beam sword. Kira didn't kill Nicol as much as Nicol accidently killed himself. You're acting like I said that Kira killed Nicol and cold blood and was happy about it when what I said was, "He didn't kill someone to protect himself or his friend, it was his automatic reaction."

[@Allelujah19]

The original was an accident. He came after him and in war, you dont think, you act and went for the cockpit. He didnt mean too.

[@ericcaulfield4477]

More Gundam Seed hating. Yes the remastering does stupid things, but then again so did George Lucas when he remastered Star Wars.

[@vali69]

There are only 3 things i like about seed: 1. Athrun or assrun... he's the best character out of all them... 2. The freedom gundam 3. The justice gundam Idk i just like how those 2 look...

[@JZblue9]

"Was Garma really a bad guy? Was Char?" WEELLLLL I DONT WANNA SAY ANYTHING BUUUUUT

[@Jetblast01]

Char "I've never betrayed anyone in my life" Anzable

[@DarthBigBen]

Zeon was evil.

[@krism.6598]

DarthBigBen This misses the point of Gundam. You can’t boil it down to “this side is evil because they fight the protagonist.” Is Gihren evil? Yes, unquestionably. Was British an evil act? Yes. Now, like the question posits, is Garma evil? How about Ramba Ral and Crowley Hamon? And is the Federation always good? The same Federation who created the Titans (who also were big into gassing colonies) and reacted to the Neo-Zeon colony drop in Belfast with “Meh, less mouths we have to worry about feeding.” Not to mention the Federation backed Anaheim electronics that essentially created a self-perpetuating forever war by supplying both the Federation and Zeon remnants all in the name of profit? The point is that there is no good or bad in war, or if there is, you the average soldier will never get to fight it, only the good people on the other side. Amuro never fights Gihren, he gets killed by Kycillia. Instead, Amuro fights and kills, 1. A genuinely good man, his death causes his wife to attempt a suicide attack which causes her death (the aforementioned Ral and Hamon) 2. A group of three friends and comrades who, after one is killed, mourn him even after being admonished by their superior for doing so, and then attempt to get revenge for their fallen comrade (The Black Tri-Stars) 3. A caring father and general whose main motivation in the war is his loyalty to his family and his men, which causes him to initiate a last stand in order to ensure his wife, daughter, and troops under his command escape to safety. (Dozle) when described like that, the actions of these characters could be seen as heroic, and that’s why Gundam is different. It shows you that even the villains, at the end of the day, just people with hopes, dreams, thoughts, and motivations of their own. I mean hell, look at Char. He starts out as a reoccurring villain and by the end of Amuro’s storyline he’s practically the deuteragonist. (This is also, incidentally why I dislike The Origin, since it seems to dial up the puppy kicking evil factor for a lot of the Zeon characters, or else they just remove any redeeming qualities like Garma’s desire to work hard to prove he had earned his rank by merit and not by family ties, as opposed to origin where he throws a tantrum to Degwin because Char outranks him.) So yeah, you could boil it down to ZEON BAD, FEDERATION GOOD, but to do so is to dilute (what I think, at least) is one of the core tenants of the series. I know I’m ranting a bit, but I felt the need to get this off my chest.

[@De_kaid]

@@krism.6598 This is true for exactly MSG, everything after it WAS a good vs evil story, Kamille kills Scirocco, Judau kills Glemy and Haman, Amuro gets back and foils the plans of the for-some-reason-now-bad Char, Banagher goes and foils the plans of the for-some-reason-now-bad-but-also-not Char and kills him too. Zeon and Titans bad, Federation not so bad without Titans.

[@chriscueva1866]

Zeon did nothing wrong

[@Milliardo5]

True about Athrun. He is also my favorite character in the series, for the reasons you stated. Also at least for Seed, Cagalli is solid, though her character would be wasted later on in Destiny.

[@exiaR2x78]

Character being wasting is the theme of Destiny

[@EckhartLuthor]

One thing that I always hated is Nicol's death. In the original version, Kira straight up killed him intentionally, and afterwards felt immense guilt. The Remastered Version changed it to look like Nicol was running to Kira's blade, which is very idiotic. They made a totally valid scene into a worthless junk just to make Jesus Yamato looks good.

[@Joshua_N-A]

They should've kept it. It is Kira the SOLDIER.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

Nicol the suicidal

[@exiaR2x78]

I couldnt watch the remaster because of some of the weird stuff they changed like that

[@tsukasaoftheazuresky]

that and name pronunciations@@exiaR2x78

[@robinfox4440]

Nicol's death happened earlier on in the series, where it had a bit more bite. I get the feeling corporate got involved, or as usual, the chief writer changed their mind. Either way it's a disaster.

[@barrybend7189]

Meanwhile Macross: your idol sucks.

[@MerlinCross13]

@Santiago Scarpino Arguably it still does.

[@therebelliousaxel8535]

MerlinCross until Delta went too far with it.

[@marinhaalternativa3829]

Laughs in Robotech

[@Lomata-j6w]

Alex Ferguson what happened to delta though?

[@randalljolla]

呂又增 delta isn’t that great. The villains aren’t that great, main characters are uninteresting and plot is boring.

[@EdgeR2]

"seed didn't undo this tragedy" Seed destiny: let me introduce myself

[@serena3841]

"An Idol, a Twink, and three ships can do on their own" I totally lost my shit at this. I am just surprised you did not use the name everyone in the fandom refers to Kira as. "Jesus Yamato"

[@santiagogarcia1606]

Seed is that much of an actual train wreck huh?

[@TheDJman248]

@@santiagogarcia1606From just having watched the series myself...nah. It's not trainwreck levels of bad. Just that it has quite a bit of wasted potential. Especially in the last third. But I have seen far worse.

[@EckhartLuthor]

@@santiagogarcia1606 it's my entry to Gundam. To this day I still think Seed is awesome, up to the last third/quarter ish, where Kira and friends become this invincible saints of all that's good. Destiny is absolutely garbage and painful to watch though.

[@santiagogarcia1606]

@@EckhartLuthor oof, for me my main entry was unicorn then thunderbolt. Unicorn wasn’t bad but the ending was just not great initially, but thunderbolt was the shit. That show opened the floodgates of gundam for me, to this day one of my favorite gundam animes of all time and probably my favorite anime ever

[@memnarch129]

@@santiagogarcia1606 Lets put it this way. MSG to explain Amuro/Char/Lala and others said they where a new evolutionary step in humanity. The Coordinators can literally just reprogram a computer system to work how they want, including ignoring physics. AKA they are deities, aka they are Gods, aka Jesus.

[@honestfan9801]

If you watch the first episodes of Seed and the original Gundam. The same things happened. From the attack on the colony, the main character accidentally pilots the Gundam, the main ship hides and the enemy ship waiting for it and so on and so forth. Basically, seed is the SW Episode 7 of the Gundam franchise.

[@byron2FZ]

That's also the first few episodes of Zeta tbf, just with *somewhat* less hostages and dead parents.

[@LaffyTaffy04]

Gundam Seed just shows how much Japan has buried what war actually is to their population. Tomino was shaken to his core by WW2 and Gundam was made to show everyone, from children to his fellow adults, that War is Hell and should prevented at all costs. Gundam Seed shows war like a play and gives a simplistic message to a complex problem. No super prototype or message of "Understanding" can end war. I'm really happy that in Super Robot Wars, every single mecha pilot around Kira are appalled by his methods and call him out when they see it.

[@Raithial]

I'm honestly not sure whether that's due to japan not knowing what war is like, or if it's more a trend of the times worldwide. It's not like the west has any idea what war is like for the most part. I have the utmost respect for those that serve in the military, but outside of them, most people think of war more like the battles in fiction instead of the terror it truly represents. That goes for europe, the americas, asia and australia too. The only ones who are decently aware of what war is like are in either the middle-east or africa. The general lack of gravitas war has in the modern zeitgeist is what is pushing us ever closer to another real war that will be fought on your own turf. That's the scary part of the current climate in the world. We're now at a point where the world-leaders will be succeeded by people who have never been in a real war, who have never been confronted what it means to fight a war.

[@danishsyed1068]

sad part is that the fact Gundam 00 got the idea war/violence can't bring peace only understanding can better

[@kabob0077]

I love how Shinji introduces his hand to Kira's face in SRW.

[@revantobias8567]

@@danishsyed1068 understanding does not bring peace. It doesn't matter how well you understand the slaver. they will still try to enslave you. edit: slaver

[@revantobias8567]

@@kabob0077 Shinji from Evangelion? That Shinji hit Kira... I can't picture it.

[@LatencyProblem]

SEED: "Bad mobile suit design" DEMS FIGHTING WORDS BOI

[@tumsfestival8027]

LatencyProblem yeah there are some cool designs from seed

[@SeekerLancer]

The problem with SEED mobile suits in my opinion is the designs aren't, "this makes sense," and instead go for, "this will make a wicked cool model kit." SEED isn't the only series guilty of this obviously but it's one of the most egregious.

[@tumsfestival8027]

Christopher Blair are you talking about the aile strike, sword strike, and gunner/heavy or wtv it was called strike? Yeh that’s pretty lame lol

[@slufffyg503]

LatencyProblem Cough cough raider gundam

[@De_kaid]

@@SeekerLancer They've always been like that tho, haven't they? Gundam is about selling model kits first and foremost for those that wanna make money of it, I don't remember a mainline Gundam series that had mobile suit designs that "made sense". MSG already had the G-Armor, which was a Fighter Jet over a Mobile Suit over a Fighter Jet.

[@kriysixvector4552]

Mu, Athrun, Flay, Rau and Cagalli were the best characters in Seed. Just my opinion, which is objectively correct and unassailable.

[@mgsxmike]

Too bad your opinion is wrong

[@nerobiblios4086]

Mu and Athrun yes, Rau was kinda just there, and Flay and Cagalli were just outright horrible.

[@mkge7206]

Replace Cagalli with Isaac (let's have a normal spelling) and I'd agree

[@Tahu33446]

Flay? The one who dumped her boy friend to hop on the dick of someone in emotional pain and was incredibly jealous and then got killed trying to get back to Kira by the same person who sent her back to Kira? Did I get that right?

[@WildArmACF]

Flay is the worst gundam character.

[@Acecard-jl2py]

To be fair, despite SEED being a soft modern day reboot of the original Mobile Suit Gundam, I don't think it was trying to rehash most of the same things. What I got out of SEED is war tends to start due to paranoia and sometimes even jealousy. Coordinators, even though Kira stated that a natural can do as much as a Coordinator, have a HUGE advantage in learning potential AND physic. The hypocrisy of Blue Cosmos creating the druggies demonstrates how even the Naturals know that they need to create their own super people in order to take on coordinators. I don't think it was about anti war, but racism. (Or geneism if that is even a word.) As a response to your Rau quote, Kira responds that "He isn't defined by his abilities alone." Through out the entire run of the anime, Kira has made decisions that he personally had to made(Or just be manipulated by Flay) and has been shown to be an overall kind person. HE IS MORE than just power(But then SEED Destiny ruins his character even more. At least there is something salvageable within Kira.) Instead of people trying to be like him or be jealous of his power, people should rid of themselves of envy. But Rau doesn't believe that. "The real world isn't as kind as the one sung in popsongs." Rau in comparison to "I wish everyone shared the same dream." Kira is a pretty interesting conflict between Nihilsm and Idealism. I DO agree that cheapening Waltfield's death takes out the consequences of Kira's actions, but he still killed Miguel and Nicole(Who was 15 and played the piano.) And Nicole's death really affected Kira. After almost killing Athrun in a blind rage after Mr. Forehead killed Tolle, Kira's decision is to never kill again. (Which he ruins later) But I always took that as Kira, despite being the Ultimate Coordinator, still isn't perfect. He failed to save Flay. At that point Kira had no choice. I always thought that was him finally breaking and he realizing that he needs to 'cut the twistedness' from this world, starting with Rau. (Once again ruined in SEED Destiny.) I still agree that SEED is a mediocre anime that got lucky due to it's bright colors and awesome sauce music. BUT it did so some things right and I can still appreciate the show for what it is.

[@barrybend7189]

Seed copied plots wholesale from the original MSG.

[@De_kaid]

@@barrybend7189 I watched MSG and Seed back to back twice and I can't even compare the two really. One starts with an MC who doesn't even realize he's killing people when he destroys a mobile suit and the other has a mental breakdown for every single life he takes. They don't get the same point across, since one comes to terms with killing people and the other gets strong enough not to need to. One is more about the realism of war and a kid that draws from magic powers and the other about a semi-realistic war with a kid that draws from a semi-realistic power. With all that I'd consider Seed less of a good gundam but more of a good anime honestly.

[@barrybend7189]

@@De_kaid side 7/ kira's colony, Luna 2/ Artemis, and the whole reentry moments.

[@CushionRide]

honestly i think they make a great ideal message in seed by using racial tones to fuel the war.... natural vs coordinator. very similar to x-men's mutant vs normals. and it shows the generated fear that's involved in dealing with a group of people that have greater ability than the norm. i honestly think that seed was a message against the racial and political divides that are happening in a lot of countries today. like here in the US we are seeing a massive divide between republican and democrat to the point that even after an election the 2 parties cant and wont be bothered to come together to solve even the basic of issues.

[@barrybend7189]

@@CushionRide problem is the convoluted politics of 4 governments( Zaft, The two omni nations and Orb) and the vague ubermench of the coordinators doesn't help the whole Naturals vs Coordinators.

[@CassDaMan1138]

The thing about Kira's "pacifism" of not shooting to kill is that's naive, at least when he does it in atmosphere off the ground. Think about it disabling a giant metal box who knows how high up in the air, is as still potentially lethal as a car crash. The pilot is still going impact the ground pretty damn hard.

[@wyldshot666]

That wasn't the point. Kira didn't like to kill so.... he didn't have to. Its ok NOT to ground EVERY detail in reality.

[@laststrike4411]

@@wyldshot666 In a super robot show, absolutely. In a real robot show? No, not really. Look, the show itself even acknowledges that this would be lethal, so...

[@wyldshot666]

@@laststrike4411 Let's say in the real world I was sniper and you were friends and family. So do I shoot you in the arm......or do I get rocket launcher and just go to work.

[@laststrike4411]

None of what you just said makes any sense.

[@laststrike4411]

So... schizo. Ran out of meds today?

[@lelouche25]

Og Gundam: War is hell. SEED: War is... doesn't matter lets watch another laser battle! pew pew pew!

[@mikethepokemaster2012]

I mean all the gundam series do that. I like thunderbolt though it really good

[@Jrdotan]

"War is hell" >30 episodes of amuro being praised while using its incredible powers to destroy zeon in the nost fashion way possible Uh no. 0080 shows war like hell 0079 is just laser pew pew

[@laststrike4411]

@@Jrdotan Shat on and then eventually praised*

[@Jrdotan]

@@sph9564 Pretty much everyone was slapped on the face in gundam at sometime And wow he has Mother issues what an amazing war is hell message!! Dude look at Bernie and Al story That was hell, a thing that could very easily be prevent from ever happening but still did because of war, it was tragic, incredibly frustrating and depressing 0079 almost always killed characters without any development time nor huge character arcs to even care about them,some were introduced at the samr story arc they would be killed on Its just not a great writing for a message like this You need to be attached to the characters if you want to feel anything when they die and 0080 was fantastic at portraying that, Zeta also did a better job at that, including the PTSD for amuro was just shown at Zeta.

[@dc7981]

@@Jrdotan 79 is like 50% war is hell and 50% laser pew pew Zeta and to an extent Chars counter attack is more like 75% war is hell and 25% pew pew action And ZZ is just nonsense lmao

[@marleyjr00]

Best part of SEED is Flay dying.

[@nerobiblios4086]

Fuck yeah it was, I wished she died sooner and in a more horrible way, Cagalli too.

[@blaze_bloom8074]

💯% true😂

[@sneakretster]

Equally the best and the worst because, yeah she sucked and I was relieved, but like, apparently I was supposed to feel bad???? But I didn't.

[@kevsthebadboy1703]

BE GONE THOT!!!

[@antihero9443]

I felt sorry for Flay although the series was trash LoL.

[@Jetblast01]

You know, with all you pointed about the "faceless" characters, what made me appreciate Athrun was that they still mattered to him. One of them you never even saw until towards the end when you see a group photo! Miguel, Rusty, and Nicol. Seeing Athrun visiting their graves and STILL talking about them about how they were all close comrades towards the end of the show's run is something I haven't really seen in really most of the Gundam shows.

[@secondsein7749]

While I agree with most of your points, there are some that I don't. You seem to forget the core element that separated SEED from other gundams; the genetic engineering that derived much of the plot of the story. You said some of the faction such as Blue Cosmos doesn't have much reason to exist and do what they do, except they do in that they hate genetic engineering with a passion. This hatred is not unreasonable to say that it couldn't exist, it is after all a higher form of racism. The Blue Cosmos is basically their version of the KKK. And then Rau said that 'everyone would want to be like Kira' doesn't refer to him as a figurative paragon that people would look up and hope to become but rather people would want his 'body' ie the perfect human. This again ties to the genetic engineering theme, the coordinators would want to become the Ultimate Coordinator like Kira and would push for more experimentations to achieve it. The Naturals too would want to be the Ultimate Coordinator but realizing that they couldn't, fuels their envy that drive them to destroy the Coordinators. It is with this point alone that you should have stuck with your principle of judging AUs on their own. You compare SEED too much with UC that it blinds you to this. Also ZAFT didn't become all genocidal. The genesis was a response to the escalating Arms race done by both sides (the emp and microwave weapon) and they want to end the war quickly by destroying the Earth's space fleet, not Earth. Literally no one in the Genesis control room except Patrick Zala wanted to fire on Earth. And Patrick Zala himself had good reasons as to why he became what he is. And for the most part he is right in that the Naturals wouldn't stop until the complete destruction of ZAFT (as evidence by them wanting to nuke the entire ZAFT colony) and so he must ensure their destruction first. Of course it doesn't mean he must be allowed.

[@GlennKurusu]

SecondSein You are right. Azrael even said, “The only rest to win this war is to get rid of them all!” Izumi Nara Atha foreshadowed before the Archangel and Kusanagi left via the Kusanagi’s spare booster and Orb’s mass driver respectively.

[@goonerOZZ]

Seed us being compared so much to the original Gundam series is because it is Sunrise's attempt to remake the original Gundam just like 00 is their attempt to remake Wings (and penetrate US market again). So yeah, when reviewing about Seed it's kinda hard not to compare them to original Gundam, it's hard not to compare CE with UC, even the whole gene modification thing and how normal people were envying and hating the coordinators has been done in UC with the cyber newtype thing and how oldtypes fear the newtypes. There were just too many similarities for it not to be compared.

[@De_kaid]

@@goonerOZZ There is genetic engineering in UC, but it's never really that big a point as Newtypes in general get sidelined way more in UC. (besides the newer entries) Even when Seed is heavily inspired by some of the UC setting, it still manages to be its own thing. Also I don't remember Oldtypes fearing Newtypes ever being a big point in UC, only thing that would come close is the bunch of Newtypes that just become genocidal to Oldtypes for no reason like Scirocco or Char.

[@sykogrupycocanekrzy]

@@De_kaidI think the feeling was more of resentment between Oldtypes and Newtypes. There was however, the fear from the Earth Federation that if natural Newtypes were real and were a product of space they would lose their power over the colonies.

[@MSSBy]

also should take into account Gundam Seed Destiny-- take it as a whole series and not judging its flaws based on comparison. Albeit the comparison between characters are interesting, it shows they're trying to go a different direction. Destiny takes the route to solving war veryyyy political

[@TRDGE]

SEED and SEED: Destiny are two Gundam series I really wanted to like but find I couldn't and you laid it out perfectly well. Great work on the analysis, all points were very true.

[@slow17motion]

I agree with much of this, but there's one profound flaw with this argument: You are taking the themes of the original and transferring them to Gundam Seed, which is looking to make other statements about war and humankind. For one, Seed deals with always heightening escalations. People are willing to kill more and more. Neutron jammers and other thoughtful maneuvers were meant to minimize destruction. However, as the series progresses, the suits become stronger and more people are open to the idea of all-out war--where weapons of mass destruction become a legitimate option. As many have already mentioned in the comments, much of Seed is also about coordinators. They, unlike Newtypes, are genetic creations and practically a different species. The unrest that this causes permeates through much of the series. Themes of genetic superiority and the fears groups like Blue Cosmos deal with are not present in the original Gundam (or at least nowhere near to the extent they're featured in Seed). Lacus isn't just a pop star. She is a secretly cunning strategist who utilizes her popularity and it's a bit of a commentary upon what people value and respect when it comes to authority. Her character is somewhat unique in that it introduces the idea of the celebrity as a shaper of culture. That has never been more relevant than it is today. Yes, Seed is flawed--but it's far less flawed when you search for meaning within the episodes rather than trying to apply themes from previous Gundams to Seed.

[@laststrike4411]

Yeah...no. Themes and big ideas alone won't elevate the quality of a series. And "cunning" and Lacus Clyne don't belong together in a sentence. Like, at all.

[@slow17motion]

@@laststrike4411 Right, because the fact that Lacus pretty much masterminded everything in season one and hid the Freedom during season two--but nooooo, she's not clever in the least. She turned Athrun against ZAFT and ultimately was the catalyst for Kira becoming someone who would fight for peace (not any particular faction). She didn't come aboard the Archangel by accident--she appears to be an airhead because that disarms her opponents. She goes into SEED mode while commanding a ship, hides the Freedom, leads the Clyne Faction, helps develop the Strike Freedom, and even pilots Infinite Justice to deliver it to Athrun. If not for Lacus, neither Athrun nor Kira would have succeeded. Hell, she even put aside her feelings about Meer--so that she could reveal the fact that Meer was a double at the exact most damaging moment for the opposition. All the while she also attempts to help Meer. If you don't think Lacus is cunning, you missed the point of the character. And I never said that "themes alone" elevate a series. I said that it's pointless to insist that one views SEED through the lens of the other GUNDAMS. It's not interested in many of the themes explored in other Gundam series and has themes of its own that stand out. Whether you think it elevates the series doesn't matter. I just thinks it's counterproductive to insist every Gundam series investigate the same themes lest it meet instant derision on the internet. Honestly, I'm quite bored of the OG Gundam universe and it hasn't produced anything of quality in years. Unicorn, despite its beauty, was garbage and all of the characters far more irritating than Lacus Clyne.

[@Jose-yt3qz]

The problem with your argument is that SEED tries to tackle war like the OG Gundam did. And it fails when it resorts to sanctimonious drivel. I get why you might like it, sometimes people just want the power fantasy and a facade of a theme (because by losing the point of ITS own message, SEED's anti war message and theme becomes a facade). So forget the themes and stay for the blasts, robots and power fantasy...but we would have no right to utter a word if someone said that SEED feels empty by the lack of a theme.

[@laststrike4411]

1) Athrun was dumb luck. She had no way to control Athrun reaching his breaking point or of putting him in a position where he would have Cagalli's words weighting over his head when he returned to ZAFT and found the homeland had gone a little crazy since he left. She turned an already conflicted man over to her side. Not the biggest whoop. 2) Same with Kira. No Aegis boom boom, she's screwed. Her plan was entirely dependent on chance (AKA shit.) 3) Your proof of this? 4) What does SEED mode have to do with intelligence? Shinn in the second half of Destiny could do it. Moreover, she literally does nothing with it. 5) No, she doesn't just HIDE the Freedom Gundam. She refurbished this illegal weapon AFTER the war was done in a process that must have taken months if not a year into the period of peace that had come over the world. She did this with no suspicions of something bad happening to themselves or the world (though how much they care for the latter after the colony drop incident has to be questioned). That is some real "forward thinking". Totally not something that happened for merchandising reasons/plot convenience. 6) Didn't they just do what they always do and steal some shit from others? 7) The leader needlessly risking her safety to personally deliver the IJ to Athrun is being smart? 8) Obviously, but that doesn't make the plot's pet cunning. Lelouch couldn't have pulled off half of the crap he pulled at the end of R2 without Suzaku, but that doesn't suddenly make him Einstein, now does it? 9) Who wouldn't? 10) This universe is literally UC 3.0 down to certain character archetypes. The fact that it focuses more on one theme from UC over another doesn't suddenly make it this new unique thing so special that it can't be compared to its predecessor. Dude, don't die on this hill.

[@slow17motion]

@@laststrike4411 Since I didn't number mine and the little text box on KZbin is giving me issues trying to view my previous post, there are parts of your response that I won't or can't respond to (like #3 and #9, since you give no context and I can't see what you're responding to in my argument). 1. "Athrun was dumb luck!" Except he obviously WASN'T. This is you trying to rationalize the FACT that Lacus was the entire motivating force behind the two biggest players. She inspires him to return to battle after his second defection from ZAFT. She is essential to his character's motivations. 2. Same as 1. 4. Because only the most skilled coordinators could enter SEED mode, as it represents a coordinator at the height of their physical and/or mental prowess. She, unlike many others, enters this mode when in command and after offering a discourse on war/death. If you can't comprehend why this was shown, you clearly don't comprehend the intentions behind the character. (And Shinn is one of the most capable Gundam pilots in that world--by the way. lol) 5. Yes, she housed it and repaired it. And just because YOU don't think there was a reason for her to do so, doesn't mean that there wasn't. As, I mean, CLEARLY there WAS a reason. Because, um, they had to use it when they were attacked. As if there wasn't enough reason to keep it just IN CASE, you have a number of untrustworthy players coming into power on the world stage. I love how YOUR lack of foresight somehow means that she should lack foresight. HAHAHA! 6. Did you pay attention? 7. It was absolutely necessary at the time. It proves that she is more than capable of doing something incredibly brave if the situation calls for it. She does it to allow Kira to battle at Orb and then once again plays a pivotal role in helping Athrun decide what happens next. 8. Once again, you're seemingly upset because she has more foresight that you might have had in a similar situation. 10. You can discuss specific character archetypes across almost all anime series. That doesn't mean that they all have the same themes. Yes, there are OBVIOUS similarities--as it's Gundam. Kira gets his beginning in much the same way as Amuro. So what? The show isn't beat for beat any other Gundam series. The VERY different paths it takes are intentionally meant to explore different themes. It's not a "hill to die on." It's a very simple observation about shows that should be clear to even casual viewers of both series.

[@MerlinCross13]

Here's your solutions to Seed. Pick one. 1) Ashtray. 2) Stargazer 3) Super Robot Wars Alpha 3. There's how you get a good story from Seed.

[@Shakukirai]

They should do more Astray-like series like they did the UC side stories OVA. Those can fill in the gaps of the war

[@SMAXZO]

SRW W..another option.

[@Gouilaa4me]

Stargazer for me. Astray for some good gundam design. The only think i like about seed main series is athrun & akatsuki.

[@Heroduothecomedian]

Amuro wasn't a God like Kira is as he can't seem to die

[@Heroduothecomedian]

@Hikaru shidou it's been a while but if your talking about the end of Char's counterattack, amuro was an adult by then so he had time to improve his newtype abilities where Kira was still a little kid and his abilities wouldn't be that strong yet.maybe if he had a near death closer to end of destiny or the manga that takes place after destiny ended and it happened I could believe his abilities could had helped him because he wouldn't still be wet behind the ears by then

[@palindinX]

@Hikaru shidou Amuro was definitely not a God, Char literally whopped his ass through the majority of their fights. If it was for the fact that Amuro was in Gundam (Which was superior in every way compared to Char's Zuko and Gelong) he would've been dead since episode 1. Then there's the fact that Amuro does die at the end Char's Counterattack, meanwhile Kira somehow survive not one but *TWO* Nuclear explosion while being at the very epicenter. And still lives by the end of his relevancy as a Gundam Protagonist. Get the fuck out of here with this.

[@palindinX]

@Hikaru shidou Oh and let's not forget that Kira is apparently skilled enough to disarm almost every enemy mobile suit without needing to kill, that includes disarm entire fleets of ships in less than 30 seconds. Where as Amuro needed to kill just about everyone just to survive, and he needed constant back up from White Base and his friends supporting him using Gun-cannon. So who sounds more like a God again? Because it doesn't sound like Amuro is a God.

[@NoelClover89]

Hikaru shidou I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic with Kira being very skilled as a retort but you’re redirecting the argument. You made a very valid point initially, Kira did indeed suck, much like Amuro and they both got better. However, Kira is a “god” in the sense that he’s “OP HAX”, more so than Amuro or any Newtype. Precognition doesn’t do jack shit unless you have a response. Amuro happens to be really, stupidly resourceful and happy to bazooka people with traps, allowing him to use the Newtype map-hack well. A borderline broken character in UC would be Kamille, but even Kamille fails to compare to Kira on terms of “OP HAX” as Kamille was shown that he could get his brain messed with while Kira... well, he survived two reactor explosions point blank. This alone makes him quite a bit more like god than anyone in UC. Then we add the whole “UltImAtE CoOrDInaToR” heap of skills and yeah, Kira is essentially “god”. Surviving a nuclear reactor exploding right under your ass isn’t “skill”, its being “god” and/or having an Axis-ton of Plot Armour.

[@redconvoy]

Kira sounds like a Stu.

[@zetazetaman]

"Hippity-hoppity, Oh no!" is the exact feeling one should have when 10 episodes into SEED Destiny

[@type-0universe756]

I agree with most of your points accept one, the whole point in why kira becomes somewhat of a pacifist fighter towards the end of the series is because the deaths that he caused before changed him to the point where he didn't want to take anymore lives unless he had to.

[@memnarch129]

Heres the question then. If hes now a pacifist why the FUCK does he get in the Freedom to keep fighting????? You dont get in a machine made for war if you oppose war and killing. Thats another point to WHY MSG does this better cause Amuro has the same arc. He doesnt want to kill and leaves Whitebase and the Gundam to just live. THEN hes confronted by what not fighting will cause and realizes while yes killing is bad there are situations where it IS neccesary. Again a 30 year old series does somthing the imitator horribly botches.

[@Gernsbacker]

​@@memnarch129Except there are several other pacifists in the Gundam franchise and mecha as a whole. Kira does kill on certain occasions when he deems the target too much a threat to stay alive. Seed doesn't have the same theme as UC, so it's by no means an 'imitator".

[@dc7981]

@@memnarch129 turn a says hi

[@eddytennyson9546]

​@@memnarch129That's not at all why Amuro left the White Base.

[@IronSheepEngine]

You made a bit of a mistake regarding the original Mobile Suit Gundam series. The Bright Slap happened much earlier in the series (ep. 9), and Amuro didn't desert until ep. 16 when he overheard Bright talking about relieving Amuro from piloting the Gundam.

[@PsychoStreak]

While Tomino did have the horrors of war as a central theme. The storyline that dominates the series and ultimately most of the UC is betrayal and revenge. Earth betrays the colonies, the colonies take revenge by attacking and dropping colonies. The Zabi family betrays Zeon in a power grab, Char spends the rest of his life taking his revenge against the Zabis and the Federation. Everyone else is caught up in that cycle. With Seed, the colonies are betrayed and retaliate against Earth. This time its Patrick Zala that's out for revenge and he plays the long game to see just how much of it he'll have to dole out before Earth is no longer a threat. They never explored how the death of his wife affected him, but he's clearly broken, and its not until the second half that we see just how much rage he (and presumably like minded allies in control of Zaft) had poured into his plans. As for Kira and consequences, he spends most of the series trying to save everyone and having to eat his failures over and over. He kills to stay alive and protect his ship and his friends. He cries after nearly every battle. Freedom doesn't make winning easier, it makes it easier to not kill because he can be far more precise. Otherwise I don't think he would have been able to rejoin the war at all. He could have been more effective just killshotting everything, but he chose the hard way because he didn't want to fight a traditional war anymore because it's horrible. As for Seed Destiny... yeah. Umm...

[@PsychoStreak]

​@Joshua Ngau Ajang Rau didn't care about the war or humanity. He wanted it all to burn as payback for his lot in life, as he blamed what was wrong with him one those who created him. He could have just chosen to live the best life he could with the time he had, exposing blue cosmos and Patrick Zala's genocidal tendencies and the cloning that produced him. That would have caused turmoil, but probably not wars. Char didn't' want to wipe out mankind entirely, though he did grow to realize those in power would never listen to the radical but peaceful ideals his father put forth. Eventually he decided kicking them off the Earth was the only way to get them out of power. His desire for revenge largely disappeared once the Zabi's he knew were dead, save for Amuro, who took Lala from him. Char's strength as a newtype din'd include the empathic abilities, mostly the precognitive skill and greatly increased spatial awareness. He didn't feel people's deaths like subsequent newtypes could. Rau was the same in those regards, but his compassion was limited to Rey and to a smaller extent Gil, who he shared the bond of being dealt a losing hand as Gil was sterile and thus unable to give Gladys the child she wanted to have (but not enough to stay alive for).

[@dc7981]

For an actual good defense for this show

[@Demospammer9987]

What I loved about the original Gundam series was how it showed Amuro struggling with the fact he'd been taking human lives. First few times he did it he was visibly shaken, later even losing sleep as well as his appetite. Later refusing to fight. I hate that more shows dont do this

[@Joshua_N-A]

IBO doesn't seem to have that within the Tekkadan except when their comrades KIA as they often kill without any remorse. Revenge is revenge for Tekkadan.

[@dc7981]

You’ll love turn A

[@dc7981]

@@Joshua_N-A the people in ibo are trained killers… Amuro isn’t lol so it makes sense

[@Demospammer9987]

@@dc7981 got it on Blu-Ray a couple years ago, maybe a month or two after posting this. It's great!

[@bendersfries3761]

i know seed destiny getsget a bad wrap but i will say that i actually enjoyed shinn's character. it was a breath of fresh air compared to kira who always has to have the moral high ground

[@ericcaulfield4477]

The only character I remember having any moral high ground was Lacus. Kira was just following her lead.

[@dinterdos]

Thank you, fellow Shinn Asuka fan I do actually think that Shinn at the start, while annoying, showed the potential to develop into a better character Unfortunately that didn't really happen and he went into a downward trajectory, but I do like the potential of Shinn

[@kurtsurban2081]

I loved Shinn's introduction and concept, we see his story and his development of why he fights for ZAFT, because the Earth Alliance and ORB failed him, he hates instigators of war, and when the Gundam Prototypes were stolen he shouts "Do you guys want another war?!". He kills, he uses the power given to him to end the violence as fast as possible, he tries to find love in Stella and later Lunamaria, but then it shifted to Kira being better because he's a pacifist and his sense of pacifism...

[@somegnome3398]

Shinn’s the only actually good character in either series, in my opinion. By being the anti-Kira, and recognizing and berating Cagalli’s and Athrun’s worthless posturing, he becomes a likable, reasonable, and respectable protagonist. He may act like a kid, but there’s a recognizable maturity in there which the other MCs only pretend to have. But when he attacks the worst nation in the world to capture the extremely dangerous genocidal leader they shelter, he doesn’t get the heroic music. Kira and his band of insane faux-pacifists do. The people who effectively rescue Hitler. SEED’s ideology is insane.

[@KaiserShounen]

Lets hope the Church of Jesus Yamato dont find a dislike bomb this video lol

[@kabob0077]

They will... Probably...

[@KaiserShounen]

@@kabob0077 Let the roast begin...

[@kabob0077]

@@KaiserShounen May we be blessed with enough Prometheum and flamers for it...

[@Red.Decimo]

The train of Jesus Yamato fans has *NO BREAKS*

[@hankhill242productions6]

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure new anime fans under the age of 14 aren't interested in Gundam SEED anymore and would rather watch SAO.

[@ZeonicZaku1-Zeon_Grunt_Suit]

Ah, Kira Jesus Yamato.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

Not really.

[@ChibaBanana]

Gundam seed is like what if Code Geass is bad.

[@billyboleson2830]

I’m pretty sure code geass was made by people who hated seed unironically

[@eddytennyson9546]

We're assuming Code Geass is good.

[@junker-f3m]

I think pre-Freedom, SEED is honestly pretty enjoyable. I'm a sucker for trashy melodrama, and honestly Flay was one of my favourite characters, because I think she had the potential to be a really interesting and tragic figure, so consumed with grief and self hatred that she uses her body to manipulate one of the Co-ordinators she finds so disgusting. I also agree that Athrun would make a better protagonist; his confrontation with Cagalli in the hospital was one of the only legitimately emotional scenes in the show, and more stuff like that might have saved it. Buuut of course the bottom drops out of it; Flay is stuffed in a broom closet and then fridged in an insulting scene in the finale, and Athrun and Cagalli's tragic and tense interplay between compassion and mercy in an environment of unremitting violence falls apart as soon as it turns out Kira is fine. The series seems determined to wash out the shades of grey it was previously painting in, almost like the writers are embarrassed about basing the show so heavily on the One Year War. Bitterly disappointing.

[@Joshua_N-A]

Many call Flay worse character but her and Kira's relationship and moments made me appreciate her more the more I watch SEED over and over again. To me, she's the best written character in the series. Revenge is one of SEED's main theme. Patrick embodies this, Uzumi calls it as a violent cycle.

[@junker-f3m]

@@Joshua_N-A they really did her dirty smh

[@junker-f3m]

@@asimhussain8716 SEED Destiny is even more disappointing because imo the first half is legitimately great, but it goes off the rails hard after Shin 'kills' Kira

[@junker-f3m]

@@asimhussain8716 yeah, pretty much exactly this, it's kind of funny how it ended up being a frontrunner for so much of modern pop culture's vapid fanservice-y crap

[@eddytennyson9546]

"Fridged"? I'm sorry, are female characters not allowed to die? And there never was any "grayness" in either 0079 or SEED.

[@hikari9433]

Funny thing, when Seed first came out it was so popular and appreciated that the public asked for a sequel. Then Seed Destiny came out and it was such a mess that people (mostly western fans) started to hate on both.

[@thomasffrench3639]

From what I’ve heard the Wing and Seed basically switch places with the western and eastern fanbase. I’ve always found how different cultures assess quality and popularity in media interesting

[@dc7981]

@@thomasffrench3639 ibo is now basically the reverse SEED. Loved in the west but divisive in Japan

[@christopherwilliams7845]

To me the biggest issue of Seed is how horribly it messes up the message of racism and genetic modification. The show likes to treat Kira and other Coordinators as other people who are just as human as everyone else and that Blue Cosmos' hatred is irrational, yet Seed constantly proves that Coordinators are ubermentsch who Naturals have no chance of competing with and shall never be physical or intellectual equals. They create impossible technology that warps physics, can re-write OS to their needs that Natural scientists have been trying to build for months, and create mobile suits that curbstomp the enemy with little difficulty. Destiny is especially awful about this as Shin and the Minerva never face any difficulty battling the Alliance after the Gundamjack and only really come into danger when Kira and the Archangel come into play. The only characters who can ever stand a chance against Coordinators are Newtypes and Biological CPU's. Literally the only way that the Alliance can win is through atrocities. All of this end the end ironically proves Blue Cosmos' message, that Coordinators are superior people who will dominate the Naturals (Of course their message of genocide is wrong and Blue Cosmos is the greater evil than Durandal, but there's no hope of coexistence without Coordinators at the top). Newtypes work so much better because at least in UC there are plenty of badass normals and wars there are won by resources, leadership, and tech instead of a single person.

[@Acecard-jl2py]

THAT IS EXACTLY what I was thinking! Rau was right! People would want to be like the Coordinators. This war was started out of paranoia because the Coordinators had an unfair advantage. It's like some babies have a higher chance of being a prodogy while naturals are left in the dust.

[@HolyknightVader999]

Coordinators still have to fight like hell, though. It ain't all roses and dandelions for them. Also, Newtypes don't necessarily work better, since it doesn't make sense how a bunch of kids suddenly grow random psychic powers while war veterans have been fighting in space and on land far longer than the main characters have. I suppose midichlorians are the only way to explain why Amuro, Kamille, and Judau are such strong Newtypes that Haman, Char and Scirocco are all afraid of them.

[@blackdragon5478]

I understand the concept of Gundam Seed. And your right, it does a poor job of delivering its message. Because at the time, the animators thought they could deliver the message of " tragedies of war", while giving a happy ending. Nobody of importance dies, and Kira , Athrun, Kagali, and hah .. Lacus all leave happy ever after. But what it does successfully, is to show, both side's capabilities, if given a chance to wipe one another. Anyways, it's has good concept and story. It has its moments too, both cool and tragic. It paved the way to other war-driven series. Like 00, Blood Orphans, more.

[@androyus]

Guess what, it was the Natural Humans who created the Coordinators. So it's still their fault. If they didn't want to lose their jobs to advanced humans, then why make them? They reaped what they sow. And first-generation Coordinators did nothing wrong.

[@chassegallerie2910]

First, ONLY Kira is able to overhaul a complete Os in minutes -also, maybe his clone Canard-. But he's a SUPER Coordinator. When Yzak and Athrun's teams steal the Gundams in Seed, they're only able to make them move. All the other systems -weapons, phase shift armor, etc- are offline. More than likely, they uploaded in the Gundams the same OS that are used on the MS ZAFT use at the time (via their equivalent of a USB key) and they just calibrated them to get away with the Gundam ASAP. Tech that warp physic have been used in Gundam since day 1. It's not 'cuz you discover an unknown particle (Minovsky) that you can suddenly make compact nuclear reactors! Even beam weapons are more or less warping physics, yet, they exist since Gundam 0079! Zaku II can bitchslap GM with an arm behind their back, so why couldn't the grunt suits used by ZAFT do the same to the grunt suits used by the Alliance? There have been naturals that kept their own against Coordinators. The three pilots of the Strike Noir, Blue Duel and Buster Verde did. Of course the pilots of the last two made mistakes that lead to their deaths, but before they made such mistakes, they easily did take on Coordinator pilots. Same with Lowe Guele and Mu.And surely many other we've not heard of. And before you go yell: "Newtypes!" it was said by the producers that in Seed/Seed destiny there were no newtypes, even if newtype sounds were 'used' by some characters. Let just say for a second that there is Newtypes in CE. Then, not only Kira is a super coordinator, but he also a newtype! About the Minerva and Shin having no difficulties facing off against the Alliance, do not forgot that they have cutting edge technology. Said technology, while available to the Alliance -either officialy or not- is not mass produced. Therefore, it is as if the Alliance was fighting against them with WWI biplanes, while they had first generation jet fighters. As for Kira and the Freedom, the technological gap is less AND both Kira and the crew of the Archangel have battle experience, which most of the Minerva's crew don't.

[@sabercyclone041]

There are so many flaws and failures to recognise either subtext or scenes whichprovide the very consequences you claim don'thappen, that I'd probably need to do a 30 minute video to cover them all.

[@Xershade]

Zala was always a nut case, his wife got nuked on that colony that got nuked. Add into the fact he's racist like Blue Cosmos and thinks that coordinators should pretty much just win because they're better at everything. Zaft was supposed to take out the alliance at JOSH-A and win the war, that literally blew up in their face. Right after this happens Kira yeets off with the super duper ultra top secret Freedom Gundam. They took out the Panama mass driver and Orb blew theirs up, why Zaft didn't destroy the last mass driver is because plot but when it looked like they had the alliance trapped on earth the extended show up and took the Victoria mass driver back. Then somehow the alliance got their nuclear weapons back, blow up the last line of defence for the Plants and start flying said nukes straight for Zaft's homeland. Hell even after he nukes their attack fleet and their lunar base the alliance just keeps coming because they won't give up. Zala had a deep grudge against the alliance before his chancellorship went tits up when they nuked his wife. After that he had the enemy blow up their base in his face, one of his gundams got stolen, the enemy took back the ONLY way to space, his second gundam didn't get returned to him, his last line of defence got nuked, yeah he had a shit career. The Alliance and Zaft 'went off the deep end' because two fanatics who wouldn't back down got in the leader seats. Also Zaft didn't nuke Earth right away. The alliance nuked a base and tried to nuke the plants, Zaft nuked their fleet. The remaining fleet tried to nuke the plants, Zaft nuked their lunar base and half their reinforcement fleet. The alliance was all but destroyed, they tried to nuke the plants again, Zaft tried to nuke earth. Also you say Seed isn't dark, we totally just going to ignore what happened at Panama after they hit it with multiple EMPs and while Zaft soldiers were shooting literally helpless people a freaking Gundam pilot who loves fighting was just hovering there going 'what's the point to this'? Or that time a shuttle of civilians was blown up because some hot head was annoyed he couldn't shoot down the main character. Or that time where the alliance decided to yeet all their undesirables into a lost fight only for them to be nuked if they weren't killed before it went off. Oh how about my personal favourite, that time Nicol took an anti-ship sword to the gut because he tried to save Athrun which caused Tolle to take an Aegis shield to the face which lead to a gundam death match that only ended because one of them blew up and then lead to Dearka almost getting stabbed in the face after the fact. Literally that sequence of events either killed, almost killed, or severely injured four of the five main gundam pilots of the show. But you're right, totally not dark or consequential because a few characters were not permanently killed off. Rau's line makes PERFECT sense. He's a doomed clone made for no other reason than someone's vein attempt to emulate (clone) themselves. His literal existence is what he's trying to fight against, if some random Papa Laflaga was attempted to be cloned what would the world do if they learned about the 'ultimate coordinator'. Rau was created out of human greed and pretty much thrown to the wolves when it didn't work out, he's rightfully pissed at humanity and his views about its dark side make sense. And an idol, a twink, and three ships only stopped the war AFTER both sides came within multiple hairs of blowing each other out of existance. Both armies were pretty much drained completely and only stopped when their super weapons and command structure were taken out. Literally the Alliance's was nuked from space and Zaft's was seized by the Clyne faction right before the war ended. Before this her faction couldn't do jack shit to stop either side, she only had a chance to stop them after they beat each other to near death and Zala and Azreal were dead.

[@ericcaulfield4477]

Zala's best character moment is so subtle, him getting angry at Athrun for even calling him dad. There you could tell he wasn't too sane and then he pulls a gun on him literally.

[@none-q4o]

I think Lacus’s speak of fear is the fear of the enemy, Federation is scared of accepting Zaft and attacking first. Zaft attacked due to fear of they will do it again. If they can accept each other without fear, the war didn’t even need to exist

[@ありn-p1y]

I think that interpretation is correct, but the fact that Lacus can say such a thing shows her complete lack of empathy for her fellow human beings. Imagine going to a Hiroshima survivor a few years after the bombing and saying, "Don't be afraid of those guys who massacred your family and your entire city! It doesn't matter that you were all civilians and victims of a war crime! The war wouldn't have happened if we were all one, big happy family!!!"

[@TheDJman248]

@@ありn-p1y Except that in this case, she would be one of those "survivors", considering she's from ZAFT. I wager it's a problem with how the show executed it rather than the idea itself.

[@clintsmith794]

I love this series, my friends always give me shit for it but i own every individual volume of release of the DVDs and all the OVA movies. Idk what it is but something about this Gundam series in particular i just really enjoy. Great video my guy totally feel with what you're saying but damn do i love this series hahaha :) Everyone give Gundam SEED a chance!!

[@sidiouswargaming3971]

Probably the mech designs, it's soundtrack and Arhrun? Lol

[@desireless4092]

I gave it a chance - every episode and bonus media it released. I even watched Destiny it back in the day as a kid when it was getting released, I went even step above and bought the Master Grade gunpla of Freedom - 2.0 to be exact. So in a way - I gave it a fair chance and I think it is extremely mediocre and weak. Even the 079 original has its problems but writing and character development is way better, Zeta took it to the next level. SEED and SEED Destiny are like fanfic retelling of 079 and Zeta. The only good things that stayed with me from this anime are the Buster Gundam, the good orchestral music and TMR's openings. Out of that I think Kira is probably one of the most pathetically written main characters to the point of sheer amusement. The writers were cowards and could not resist to bring back Mu since the show could not bring anything more and the most obvious sign of failure is the fact that mid season of Destiny - they brought back the old cast to help carry the weight. I am not sure if this was the idea all along, but it is a bad one. I think I'd rather watch Wing Gundam or 00 then the SEED saga, and those two are not even remotely favorite of mine. The 00 movie especially is absolutely hilarious. Instead of trying to get people into SEED I will counter with the following: Give Turn ∀ Gundam and After War Gundam X a chance and ditch SEED

[@Oturan20]

I watched it when it came out... and can remember nothing that actually happens in it... all I personally remember was being bored.

[@eddytennyson9546]

​@@desireless40921) 0079>Zeta. Zeta had its strong suits, but saying it's an improvement over the original is a bit much. 2) How is SEED Destiny anything like Zeta? 3) The reason Mu was brought back was because the team thought SEED was going to be a one-and-done entry. By the time they learned this wasn't going to be the case, it was too late. 4) Gundam X? Really?

[@DariusVladimirAuditore]

Guess what? Seed Destiny does a complete 180 once Kira yet again steps in the Freedom.

[@Wittle_Boyo]

@@BOOFIRE191 Destiny is "fantastic." Please get to it. ;)

[@therebelliousaxel8535]

BOOFIRE191 get ready for “Lacus is God with Asspulls Everywhere the anime.” It’s Hell.

[@revantobias8567]

@@BOOFIRE191 Get ready...

[@DariusVladimirAuditore]

@@BOOFIRE191 character assassinations gallore.

[@revantobias8567]

@@BOOFIRE191 The only thing to Fear is Destiny...

[@jasongibson1225]

I think that the non-lethal multikill cheat comes with something that you may have not thought about. Everytime Kira does this. He chooses to be non-lethal. His multi-yeet weapon actually isn't that different from Le Crescet's final Gundam. Although Crescet decides to kill with it instead. Le Crescet uses this powerful weapon lethally. Kira uses his powerful multi-laser weapon to incapacitate. He CHOSE to do that. It is somewhat implied too, Lacus tells Kira when he receives Freedom that she is "entrusting" this to him, and I think it wasn't just because of the N-canceler thing. It's also because it is a powerful and incredibly lethal weapon in the wrong hands. Also I think it is worth mentioning that the tone of the PLANTs changes quite a bit when Clyde loses his position of Chairman to Zala. Clyde didn't like the Alliance either, but he did it more to defend his nation. He had some degree of honor. Zala though doesn't. He believes that the only solution is to eliminate all Naturals. Not just the Alliance. He is motivated by hatred and spracism (Space racism lol, get it?), and is completely motivated by the idea of culling, just like his blonde counterpart in the Alliance. He too believes that the only solution is the culling of every Coordinator. The solution to Le Crescet's is the most insane. He simply says how can there be war if everyone is dead. I think that you're right though. The theme changes to more broad philosophical strokes at the end so it becomes pretty sanctimonious. I think you're right about Lacus's character, the only defense we can have for her is that she was clearly planting seeds of dissent back on the PLANTs that may have come to fruition by the end.

[@Beatmaster971]

Kinda hoping for a video on Iron Blooded Orphans since that's what got me into Gundam too

[@laststrike4411]

For it to be roasted...?

[@Beatmaster971]

@@laststrike4411 I don't think it'd get roasted but even if it did I just wanna hear his takes on it

[@laststrike4411]

@@Beatmaster971 Fair enough.

[@orangeyellow9695]

I.b.o was a stunning alternate universe gundam. Mikazuki constantly giving kudelia the reality check instead of lacus and Kira repeatedly reinforcing a naive idealism. To Kira and lacus: Yes, understanding one another is important to avoid and resolve conflicts, how should we deal with disagreements then? A gundam beam spam?

[@laststrike4411]

@@orangeyellow9695 Your thoughts on season 2?

[@magicalsealand5076]

2:46 those are eyes that have seen the unspeakable

[@DICEBOY22]

I like SEED and SEED Destiny and appreciate it despite the flaws because it was my gateway to liking Gundam outside of just G Gundam

[@YarugumaSou]

The guy who brought me into Gundam once said "If you haven't watched SEED you haven't watch Gundam". Well joke's on you old man.

[@WackyModder84]

> *_I've watched about 10 Episodes of SEED Destiny, and even though the character design and MS design are still problems I have. All around? It is a marked improvement!_* ....Sh-..... S-Should we tell him....??? Jokes aside, I am OVERJOYED that I finally found someone out there BESIDES JUST ME who defends Flay Alster. She was one of the VERY FEW PEOPLE on the Archangel who actually had CHARACTER to themselves. Much love, Boo! ❤ Though I'd like to point two things with your video, Boo: First is something that a lot of people seem to overlook involving Mu La Flaga's Death in SEED: What should have ACTUALLY HAPPENED in that scene was that the Dominion's Lohengrin should have gone CLEAN THROUGH the Strike AND the Archangel. The Lohengrin is a Positron Cannon. An ANTIMATTER Weapon. In order to block one, you need to have a Positron Reflector. Those things are HUGE in size, and are mostly equipped on Mobile Armors and Bases as a result. The Strike blocking the Lohengrin Shot with it's mere armshield makes absolutely no goddamn sense, and completely contradicts what was set in stone. What's even MORE hilarious is Fukuda's Response to that when called out on his bullshit during an interview at Kyoto University in November 2003: Q: About Mu stopping Dominion's beam. Is that a miracle? A: It was an anti-beam shield so it can stop it, right? Someone refutes Fukuda by "Isn't Lohengrin an anti-fortress beam..." and Fukuda replies, "I didn't know that *laughs*" He just straight up took a page right out of Akira Toriyama's Book of Deflection and deceptively plead amnesia to get out of the corner he's backed himself into, as if Gundam Fans are really that stupid. Second was about Andrew Waltfeld's Death and why they brought him back. And brace yourself, because it's both hilarious AND cringe. This was taken from the same interview that I referenced above regarding Waltfeld surviving after Fukuda was questioned about it: Q: Why did Waltfeld Live? A: Originally, I didn't plan for him to live, but let him live because there weren't a lot of cool adults left. When I saw the VA's acting on screen, I said to myself, "Man, he's not going to die." When Morita-san heard that, his face had a look saying, "What are you saying when he's planning to die." Doesn't THAT tell you everything you need to know about the mentality he went into SEED with. He just brought Waltfeld back because there were "not a lot of Cool Adults left." And the moment he said that outloud, people around him looked at him like he was retarded or something. Overall, though. Solid Vid! 👍

[@Acecard-jl2py]

At least he admitted that he forgot. Lol

[@WackyModder84]

@@Acecard-jl2py He didn't, though. He just pretended like he did. Fukuda is NOTORIOUS for doing this shit, and has been documented MULTIPLE TIMES using this tactic in interviews to deflect criticism. Where he conveniently pretends to have simply forgotten something just to get himself out of a corner after being called out on his bullshit. Do not be deceived by his incompetence.

[@tomtheconqerur]

I thought you were as dead as DC comics when they hired Zoe Quinn after she caused a man to kill himself. how's life treating ya?

[@WackyModder84]

@@tomtheconqerur Oh, trust me. I'm not THAT dead yet. But life is definitely trying to get me there. Regardless, I'm still surviving. Bout all I can do.

[@tomtheconqerur]

@@WackyModder84 hows that rant on the strike freedom gundam going anyways?

[@KyleDornez]

From my own experience, one can pinpoint the exact moment when quality goes from your usual Gundam shenanigans to shit, and IMO that is the point where Kira survived Aegis explosion. By all accounts he should be dead and Athurn must be a protagonist now. But no.

[@IronSheepEngine]

Kakarot197 has an explanation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6CrdmCZjtKAqck

[@nerobiblios4086]

Yup, that was just poor writing and plot hole riddled mess.

[@slufffyg503]

Kira: I don’t kill people, killing is wrong Also Kira: cuts the bridge off of ships during the final battle and leaves soldiers vulnerable and defenseless in front of enemies

[@De_kaid]

I don't get where people got the idea from that Kira became a total pacifist when he was entrusted with the Freedom. Sure he disables every mobile suit he can in battle, but he even said himself he was ready to kill anybody who would try to steal the data on the N-Jammer Canceller.

[@ericcaulfield4477]

Dude's 15/16 though, give him a break, he's an idealist trying his best here.

[@jdreyn02]

Well honestly the character that the series is really about isn't the main hero, or the supporting characters. Its all about the villain or the anti hero depending on how you view him, Rau La Creuset and plot against both the Earth Alliance and Zaft. As an imperfect clone of Al Da Flaga, Rau La Flaga a.k.a Rau La Creuset wanted to destroy all of humanity for his rejection. His father finding out he was an "imperfect clone" was going to abandon him. So you got some psychological trauma and the physical trauma of accelerated, painful aging with being an imperfect clone. Rau La Creuset was actually one of the most compelling characters in any Gundam series, really only Char Aznable is as compelling. Plus Rau La Creuset obliterated Kira hard in their final battle, Kira's mobile suit was a shredded pile of junk by the end of their final fight. My point being if you hyper focus on one character you don't like in a series your going to miss the good stuff you should be paying attention to.

[@direaspect4221]

The mobile suit designs were really good throughout the entire series which is probably why I continued watching after Seed

[@holden_7597]

I still think “Pre Freedom” Seed is still better than Wing. But that’s just my two cents.

[@wyldshot666]

The horrors of war. Predjudice. The pain of loss. Questioning your morals. Relevant characters. You can watch BAYFORMERS for all I care. This shit is awesome.

[@TheLibrarianUU]

Ook! [The story is not that bad, but the music is a true gem. Search 'Symphony SEED' and 'Symphony SEED Destiny' recorded with London Symphony Orchestra for an even more awesome rendition.]

[@AjaxJP]

One thing SEED does pretty well is death scenes *pop*

[@AnthroGearhead]

Thanos: no....this cant be happening

[@ACCAW11]

It is upsetting that Destiny undoes one of the most impactful events in Seed. Mu La Flaga never died. In fact in Destiny they make history repeat it's self after he recovers his memory and decides to once again save the ship in the very same way except he pilots the Akatsuki Gundam which is immune to beam weapons and can deflect beam energy. Then he does the obvious recovery from his series long amnesia. They retcon his death, show how he survived and take all meaning away from his original sacrifice.

[@Matanumi]

someone's headcannon was that he was actually dead so They took his DNA and carbon cloned him into Neo and implanted new memories

[@ericcaulfield4477]

Then again, Char walks away from death in Zeta like it's nothing so there's that.

[@orangeyellow9695]

If mu is immortal colasour, I can accept that. Heck, Patrick's literally a jab at all plot armour in seed. He even got Kati.

[@Ash_Wen-li]

@@ericcaulfield4477 Char spent a very long time recovering and was mentally crushed by not being able to do anything

[@TechnicSky]

@@Ash_Wen-liNot a valid excuse. Bro really watched or stayed in the back as others suffered. Least he could do is check up on KAMEAL when he can.

[@VolrinSeth]

Blue Cosmos didn't simply hate Coordinators simply because they were generally 'irrational', but because they explicitly feared being outperformed and replaced by them.

[@comradefreedom8275]

All this said, I prefer SEED over Wing (not saying that SEED is good, just that I think Wing is worse). As for SEED Destiny... you'll hate it by the time you get to episode 39.

[@comradefreedom8275]

@Voltage, dragon guy I don't think Kira is any better than Heero, honestly. He's just as pretentious as Heero, just in a different way. My biggest problems with Wing come down to a few things. 1. Bad World-building, One thing SEED has over Wing is good world-building. 2. Politics that honestly make no sense if you really think about it. No sane country would pick absolute pacifism when there's an aggressive nation posing a threat to them. Why not just amass an army should the time ever called for it? Oh wait, that's basically 0079.

[@comradefreedom8275]

@Voltage, dragon guy Oh and of course, The message I got from Wing is "War is awesome". The overall tone of Wing flat-out trivializes the message it's trying to get across, which I find insulting.

[@Red.Decimo]

Unpopular Opinion: Wing > SEED Say what you want, but Wing is Objectively a better Gundam Series than Seed, Wing is NOT my favorite just so you know, but it just so seems as if Wing is alot more superior to Seed, especially with the Glory of Losers Manga, it actually explained on about Why Heero is emotionless, and the Gundams there are even spectacular than in the anime.. unlike Kira who.. always becomes this same mary-sue even in Seed/Destiny, and Fukuda is a hack... So in terms of how facts stands, Wing is a lot better than Seed and Seed Destiny combined into one, unless if we're talking about Frozen Teardrop. But regardless, I much prefer Wing, and Wing is NOWHERE near as the worst Gundam show of all time, that title belongs to either Gundam Seed, Seed/Destiny and AGE FX.

[@comradefreedom8275]

@@Red.Decimo I would rather watch AGE than Wing. And here's the flaw in your argument regarding Glory of the Losers. If Wing needed a manga retelling to make its story work, then the anime is obviously not strong enough stand on its own. If you look at Wing on its own and nothing more, Heero is a one-dimensional edgelord who makes decisions that contradict both his character, and his stated mission. This isn't me saying that Kira is good, but that I still think Wing is shit.

[@Red.Decimo]

@@comradefreedom8275 well firstly, you're wrong. Gundam Wing manga "Glory of Loser'' is a the REBOOT of Wing, in a way It is 100% FAR SUPERIOR to the original anime. (Anime being non-cannon) For instance: That scene where that Taurus destroyed Deathscythe is non-existant in GoL, along with many other bullshit scenes from the original as well. I am aware of Wing's faults and as i've states before, Wing is not my favorite Gundam show, BUT as it stands--- I much prefer Wing than anything in either Seed or Seed/Destiny. As for you're claim for Heero, again you sounded like you did not read the manga cause Heero got developed more in GoL manga than the anime, and again, Heero indeed does redeemed himself in the manga than the anime, and to be fair, he was just 1-Dimensionally Flat (in the anime). If you're preference is that you just somehow enjoy Seed more, Good for you, i'm not saying anything about your taste.

[@bthsr7113]

A lack of fear is honestly likely to cause wars. We should fear conflict on a mass scale. If necessary we'll face it, but it is something that should scare us.

[@braydenb1581]

I love SEED. But it's messaging in season 1 is basically.. if just the good guys had a very very powerful weapon over the bad guys, everything would be fine.

[@JustSumGuy01]

And I'm surprised we haven't seen a gundam series that actually points that out. Throughout the franchise the idea of might makes right is always the message. Kira has some good ideals but not only are they are bit naive he backs them up with force. Dude doesn't kill anyone anymore but is ok with the rest of his gang killing everyone.

[@braydenb1581]

@@JustSumGuy01 I don't think the intent is every might makes right but you are correct in a way. Like... Kira can only do what he does because he has a gundam and has been modified, both to be way better than the average soldier. It would be interesting to see a retelling of White Bases adventure but this time the gundam may be more specialized than a Zaku, but it isn't "better" same with white base. Make it a good warship, don't make it THE WARSHIP TO BE.

[@JustSumGuy01]

@@braydenb1581 If you take out the fact that Kira has a gundam, all it makes him is some kid. Hell Arthrun without the Justice is some dude. He got creamed by Kira and I liked the Savior Gundam. Amuro was never as OP as Kira in early gundam

[@braydenb1581]

@@JustSumGuy01 yeah I'm watching original gundam now only 16 episodes in. It seems more even

[@JustSumGuy01]

@@braydenb1581 I know right? I didn't watch the OG series until much later and DAMN it has a lot of good moments. MC isn't godly OP or full of pretentious shit

[@ZAK31591]

Old vid, but you really hit the nail here. It's such a shame because if they had developed the conflict to give us reasons why both sides turn into mass murdering maniacs and good reasons for the war. It could have been really cool to see how two non-evil factions can degrade to bloodthirsty monsters. Could have been a real cool look at what makes good people do terrible things.

[@alissonaxl]

I have to add that Kira being the “Ultimate Coordinator” serves no purpose at all! Nor he and Cagali being twins.

[@ArmanGW]

Ramba ral was almost famous for that one funny line

[@xenoplaguedoctor2912]

What I love about the original gundam and macross series is that both of them tell us to act with responsibility rather than just mindlessly telling us war is bad. There is a character in Macross who keeps insisting that the military is bad and is the source of all problems, he believes in total pacifism. But he is constantly shown to be a fool who does not know what he is talking about and has no grasp of the situation. Simply being told war is bad will not end fighting, it takes work and sacrifice for an end to be seen. Despite calling pacifism naive, both shows are most definitely anti war. While Gundam leans more to the war is hell, Macross takes a stance closer to spreading a culture of peace and love, giving people reasons to love other than fighting and dying and trying to overcome differences. Even the idol singing in macross is not so simple as a plea to stop fighting. It is an example of something that exists for peaceful reasons and at the same time is used to exploit an enemy weakness. Both series have the nuance to treat war like it should, as an abomination to be avoided and dealt with if needbe.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

kinda funny with how seed kinda pulls from wing just as much as 0079, if not more in places

[@ericcaulfield4477]

Seed pulls more from Zeta than even 0079. Like literally Lacus's faction is the AEUG of the CE universe.

[@danielchew8739]

One thing I remember about Seed/Seed Destiny that is like the Gundam's equivalent of Star Wars' sequel trilogy. That it caused a major riff in the fan base to the point it become very toxic.

[@brandonscott4808]

I feel like Flay fleshed Kira's character out more, while Lacus made his character worse. One of the main reasons the creators decided to kill Flay off was to hook Lacus up with the Kira and the thing is nothing really developed between the two, especially in GSD. Heck I wouldn't have mind if he was with Cagalli if the show didn't pull that hole princess of a nation/twin sister scenario as it only held her character back.

[@laststrike4411]

Brandon, you're still alive?!!

[@brandonscott4808]

@@laststrike4411 Hows it going man? I haven't heard from you since 2016. Its good to see you back friend.

[@laststrike4411]

@@brandonscott4808 Yeah, sorry about that. It was just that I was never able to get the story to 100% and after hanging up the towel, I couldn't really bring myself to talk. Also sorry about not replying, I never saw you replied until now. I'm doing alright. College is crazy (hardly 2 months in and we've already started taking midterms, which wouldn't even be so bad if these classes were even remotely my top picks, but I digress), writing is hard (I think I've gotten better, but I still haven't managed to really complete anything that wasn't some standalone project; working on a long-term project for the future though), and books are good. What about you? If I remember correctly, you were in college (btw, I'm so sorry, I hadn't entered college when we were still working on Reborn and I gravely underestimated how much the place could take from you; I think I'll stop with the parentheses now). Hope things are going well.

[@brandonscott4808]

@@laststrike4411 I finished up community college back in spring of 2017 and enrolled at a university in the fall of that year. Right now I'm about almost finished and ready to graduate next year.

[@laststrike4411]

@@brandonscott4808 Nice (especially considering everything I've heard about community college). Do you have a place and job in mind for when you graduate?

[@niwona_]

Seed has fantastic suit designs and some of the best music in all of Gundam. I understand some people not liking all the melodrama, but I do like that it gives characterization to a lot of people rather than simply using them as set pieces like original UC often did. I think it culminates in a pretty solid ending and does a lot right and has far better balance to it than ones like 00 in terms of story progression. It's one of the best Gundam's that's been widely seen in the West. Anyway if you mainly like Athrun as protagonist, you'll enjoy Destiny! People often think Shinn was the protag but it's really an Athrun story.

[@Fearoq]

As someone who saw/read OVA Astray, Stargazer and other non main story. They are so much better.

[@Chrizinator]

Oh sweet child, wait til you get to Seed Destiny’s second half. The first 13 or so episodes of that show are great. And then it all goes down hill from there. Btw, the director brought Waltfield back because he liked his voice actor. Also by the way, if you thought Rey (Star Wars Rey, not Seed Rey) was a Mary Sue, Destiny kicks Kira and Lacus’ Sue-ness to 11. And dont get me started on how the HD remaster pulls a Greedo shot first with Nicol.

[@slow17motion]

Kira is a Gary Stu, but as E;R mentions, Gary Stus are superior to Mary Sues for a variety of reasons (the least of which is that they're almost always more interesting in the narrative because they're proactive, not reactive). And there's nothing inherently wrong with having a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu. See: One Punch Man.

[@user-pi1lb4tf2f]

@@slow17motion OP man is in no way a gary stu. He is the most powerful character in the series and no one can beat him in a fight but that's all. Nobody even likes him in his series except for very few people. His strength has even became his no.1 dilemma that he felt deprived of enjoyment because of it. His baldness made him unnoticeable to the people around him. He is not a self-insert for wish fulfilment but the opposite.

[@johannesrosenthal7431]

I watched a lot of Gundam series and I felt that Seed held my attention the most. It is not one particular thing but the overall atmosphere. I feel there is emotional drama and a sense that Athrun and Kira will become friends again. And I also think that Kira becoming stronger and stronger during the show is a good thing. Am I the only one that likes heroes that don't fail? Someone you can depend on no matter what. I think simple, emotional people will appreciate Seed.

[@trollinoakenshield9822]

Isn't that kinda boring if the heroes never fail?

[@xnow13]

While ZAFT did their damn best to be the better guys, their usage of anti-nuke jammers *are offensive* in nature even if the war itself is a defensive one. Sure in anime it wasn't touched upon (IIRC but it's been decades) but the jammers indiscriminately targeted and stopped every goddamn nuclear reaction (no matter how impossible that is) on the planet which means that not only the nuke bombs stopped working but also the nuclear powerplants which, imo, at the time of the Colony Nuking, at least 50% of the nations have at least 1 nuclear powerplant. No nuclear reaction = no working nuclear power plants = no power in hospitals, ports, farms, cities and etc. = no power in emergency services means high likely hood of civilian deaths in at least hundreds of thousands to millions The coordinators are smart so there's no way in hell they didn't know such thing will happen if the jammers were dropped. The attack wasn't defensive move, it was a clear offensive move. Then again, this is if we added the "realism" component, of which there is none in GS and GSD.

[@VolrinSeth]

You can argue whether it's good motivation, but Zaft did have 2 reasons to destroy earth: 1. They considered themselves superior and wanted to wipe out the inferior naturals. 2. Earth had already nuked one of their colonies and were planning to do so again and kept trying to wage war with Zaft.

[@HajimotoSaito]

I subscribed, this is such a great video. It encapsulated the problems that made Seed meh. Excited on your thoughts about Destiny.

[@thornestark4521]

Bright Nowa making mobile suit aces one slap at a time lol

[@ericcaulfield4477]

That slap didn't help Amuro one bit. lol

[@Noizemaze4]

I still think SEED has some of the best mech / Gundam designs in all of the Gundam universe. Even after having seen almost everything except for Turn A and AGE, SEED suits still kick the other ones out of the ballpark for me ( not including Build Fighters since that's a mash-up of everything). I'm always intrigued at how I continuously get "stuck" between crazy Cosmic Era fan bois / grls and hardcore UC-ists who just flat out hate SEED simply because they saw UC first or whatnot.....

[@willdabobalore2132]

I completely agree with your comments about the first half, but tbh I actually enjoyed the ridiculous second half sooooooo much more

[@alexathanas7858]

Love your Gundam reviews, you should really do one for Zeta Gundam. I'd love to hear your take on it and the transition to Char's Counterattack

[@sixela2268]

Seed was made to try and bring new viewers into a new universe, trying to make a new uc as the main storyline for newer generations, a gundam age before gundam age

[@jamelnowell9144]

Man idk. I really liked and enjoyed the Seed series. Is it the best Gundam series? No. But this guy makes it seem like it was an abomination....to each their own I guess 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@shogus0046]

Been looking over your videos and damn dude we must be twins because Gundam and Fire Emblem are my two favorite things

[@victort.2583]

I enjoyed SEED. It was my first entry into the Gundam anime, and I think to that end, it's plenty serviceable. One advantage of being newer is that the science fiction is more relevant and believable (genetic modification, mass drivers, nuclear weapons/neutron jammers are some pretty compelling topics, and UC technology doesn't feel as close to what we have today because of how long ago it was written). I also think the designs looked cool (the Calamity Gundam is pretty easily my personal favorite suit). As far as characters... I can recognize that there were flaws... Flay was written basically to be irredeemable, Lacus was written to be perfect, Kira was written to be immortal, etc. Despite this, it had its moments, and it still communicated an antiwar message. As such, I'd call it adequate - maybe not as good as other Gundam timelines, but there's such a long, long way to fall from "Universal Century" to "terrible" that I don't think it could possibly be that bad.

[@StarDragonJP]

Glad to see someone else appreciates Flay for what she is.

[@Matanumi]

A plot device with a sad story and poor attitude/behavior

[@ericcaulfield4477]

A Katejina Loos expy that isn't quite as over the top and insane?

[@GUNDAMSTARX]

I used to somewhat agree with this video, but not so much anymore. I just rewatched seed recently, and I took away almost everything you didn't. I don't think the show is perfect, but I feel like you missed the point of the series yourself. It's like you were talking about a different show the whole time while leaving out multiple plot points.

[@rolandkatsuragi]

12:18 My only memories of Seed/ Destiny was confused disappointment as it was the only thing on TV while on a trip, because I'd never seen the show before I was totally confused by all the melodrama and dense writing. Conversely I loved watching G Gundam in the afternoons because the streamlined plot was still accessible and enjoyable for me even at seven.

[@inquisitorgarza312]

In the Grim Darkness’s of the Future there is only war, but within that war there are people, like you and me, struggling to survive and seek out a better tomorrow. When I was growing up I saw a lot of Gundam and with it I a saw both the good and the bad of its setting, and grew to appreciate the conflicts that inspired the series, which is obviously the World Wars. Though I never saw this series, many and I mean many of my friends loved both Seed and Seed Destiny. So I sat down and watch both series, and after I wasn’t friends with some of these people, because of their absolute adoration of Kira Yamato and the series message. Though to me this series was a parody of Gundam, and insulted both fans and viewers of the series. It didn’t put hard questions about altering genetics or the ramifications of systemic racism on both sides of the conflict. No we got stupid main characters that believe they can single handing win the wars, by shooting non-lethal beams at your enemies somehow disabling their Mobile Suits. This series had a promising premise with both Naturals and Coordinators argument, which is it natural or unnatural to genetically engineered humans in space, and are they superior or inferior to humans, and instead of the show allowing its viewers to come create own opinion on the matters they instead shows that coordinators are indeed superior in Kira Yamato. Instead of villains with believe backstories that comes from such a Darwinistic view of the Conflict of both Natural and Coordinators fearing for their destruction as a race, we instead get Saturday Cartoons Villains that both their ideologies and motivations are pathetic at worst or laughable at best. I continue to love Gundam Series, heck currently I am watching the new Gundam Build Divers, but Seed and Seed Destiny are current my most hated series of Gundam I have ever watch.

[@Stoicswimfish]

Ever try that AGE?

[@inquisitorgarza312]

Stoicswimfish Actually yes, and to be frank it is better than the hate it deserves. Comparable to Seed it at least takes itself seriously with the issues of war, and both the continuation and legacy of it in generations of family. While its not focusing on a centralized character or casts, that wasn’t the point, it was about the effects of the war in between generations of people and their attitudes towards it. Actually it is considered to me a decent series for what it is, and unlike Seed and Seed Destiny the cast is flawed, but are still likable and relatable, and there is actually death and consequences which we get to see both the causes of how they died and aftermath effects it had on the characters, considering that Seed and Seed Destiny brought back its death characters.

[@AKUNJIG]

The Music kept this show alive for me

[@malcolmcampbell3912]

CrossRays really drives home that nothing in SEED is motivated and that the last leg is just "EVERYONE IS NOW OMNICIDALLY CRAZY FOR NO REASON."

[@Matanumi]

In Crossrays only the mangas and shorter stories have good retellings- the major series skip pretty important plot points and major battles

[@woah5333]

I disagreed on one thing. It makes sense to me that coordinators want to kill naturals for what they've done in the first scene of the series. They haven't done much out of line except building the genesis which is arguably also a defensive weapon despite being a weapon of mass destruction just like nuclear weapons. And it makes a lot of sense they retaliate after the blue cosmos shoot nuclear warheads at them for the second time. (Not sure relevant or not. I heard some theory about two superpowers with completely opposing ideology can only escalate in use of force until only one superpower is left or no superpower is left.) Rather it's weird the show expect us to think ZAFT are the bad guys in the beginning of the show. Like maybe I was getting the wrong vibe but why did no one address the awful things the alliance has done before Kira's friends (and later Kira) decide somehow it's their responsibility to protect the ship. Then the crew at around 35-ish episode suddenly woke up and realize ok the alliance are bad

[@KallusGarnet]

Flay: is a real woman. Lacus: A Male fantasy of what a man wants a woman to be.

[@ixiahj]

Now that you mention it, I can't remember why Athrun's father wanted to blow up earth at the end. Its like he just went psycho but we don't know if he was already psycho before since he hasn't had a lot of screen time. When I first saw Seed, I thought I was just missing backstory that was in manga. Backstory that explains why people did what they did. I guess such manga doesn't exist.

[@De_kaid]

The first time he shows up he already states theres no reason in fighting a war and not winning. Also ZAFT doesn't just go "blow up earth" outta nowhere, it actually shows Zala gaining traction politically and ZAFT turning more and more anti-Natural. He went psycho bc Naturals gained the data on the N-Jammer Cancellers through Rau and almost blew up the entirety of the PLANTs, they had to defend themselves somehow.

[@ericcaulfield4477]

I think we knew he was a psycho when he pulled a gun on his own son. The fact he didn't even want his son, Athrun calling him even dad should tell you there was something wrong. It was subtle so it's not surprising how he was off the reservation by the end. Considering he had Siegel Clyne gunned down brutally earlier.

[@InconsistentContent]

Seed is awesome, IDC what anyone says xD

[@mgsxmike]

Typical trash talk

[@axelbrawn2726]

@@mgsxmike and ur a trash it self

[@mgsxmike]

@@axelbrawn2726 shut up you fucking weeb

[@kamerondonaldson5976]

thats not seed thats 00 that glorifies war despite what its protagonists set out to do. if anything its inverted when it comes to seed. they start off glorifying war deliberately and then when cagallis father dies in the selfdestruction of the neutral nation orb, they lose the will to fight..

[@NateRanger87]

I've never understood the hate that SEED got. I always thought that it's a solid series with great character relationships, some amazing music, great MS designs. But that's just me :)

[@Kalmera6238]

You and me and the people of Japan. Haters just make the most noise

[@rontauranac]

Nathan Schultz : I don't think Boofire 191 knows what he's talking about. Speaking about an anime requires to know well the japanese culture. Like Johnny Cash never intended to sing for a Saudi Arabia's audience, Gundam is not made for an american or french audience. I'm French, and I really enjoyed watching Gundam seed.

[@thomasffrench3639]

@@rontauranac if Japan is exporting this media that takes up American time slots, then we totally got the right to criticize it.

[@kicapanmanis1060]

Well hating Seed is the cool hip thing to do.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Seed was the original SAO

[@thomasffrench3639]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 is SAO loved in Japan?