Heinlein or Asimov? Four Science Fiction and Fantasy Novels, Ranked and Reviewed

[@stpnwlf9]

What is amazing to me about Foundation is that Asimov's science of 'psychohistory' is essentially 'big data' analytics - the idea the with a large enough dataset, you can predict trends and outcomes with amazing accuracy, but cannot predict individual actions at all. This has, in the 70 years since he wrote the books, become the basis for business strategy. The fact that Asimov wrote the essence of this in the 1950s is mind-boggling.

[@whyjaywonders]

I can't like this enough. Great comment. Sad I cannot give it more than one thumbs up...

[@paulbeardsley4095]

I was down to teach data analysis at the beginning of this year. In the end it didn't happen, alas, but I was going to mention Foundation in the first lesson.

[@santiagopm88]

Guys, statistics long predates Asimov. "Big data analytics" is just good marketing. If anything, the overall quality of prediction has massively decreased as the volume of data analyzed has increased.

[@chrisanderson7820]

@@santiagopm88 BDA differs quite substantially from user driven statistics, even if BDA itself is a form of statistical analysis.

[@santiagopm88]

@@chrisanderson7820 bda is a marketing term with no concrete meaning. Machine learning is new and powerful, but nothing Asimov wrote had anything to do with that. The PREDICTIVE power of any analysis, be it applied to small or big data, is powered by Bayesian or Frequentist statistics, both of which predate and inspired Asimov. Haven't you ever wondered at the fact that we are just as terrible now at predicting the future as we were 40 years ago? More data does not equal more predictive power

[@mondostrat]

'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' & 'Stranger In a Strange Land' are head and shoulders above all the other Heinlein I've read.

[@BangkokQuizMaster]

I agree. My love for Heinlein is equally complicated by his great writing vs his politics and misogyny. But Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Herbert's Dune are the only books I re-read almost every year. Moon is a Harsh Mistress makes me cry every single time when I get to the ending. There are many better written books but I have to give kudos to any author that can evoke emotion, re-read after re-read.

[@brooklynjack631]

@@BangkokQuizMaster What misogyny in him? He was writing about the evil that men do to women and that somehow makes HIM a misogynist? Sorry but you cannot judge a man just by his writing of fiction. Try reading about him. Learn what he said in real life too, plenty of his stuff is easy to find. Try Spider Robinson"s RAH, RAH, R.A.H. It might interest you.

[@daveingram9240]

@@BangkokQuizMaster A couple of the other ones I enjoy re-reading are The Forver War by Joe Haldeman and The Dragon in the Sea by Frank Herbert

[@willcool713]

The Cat Who Walked Through Walls has an impressive and well implemented premise. And I think the short story All You Zombies should be required reading for academic discussion. But yeah, Moon and Stranger are definitely tops. And I grok Stranger as yet another cut above. Influences my thinking still, thirty years after.

[@peterpuleo2904]

@@daveingram9240 The Forever War was really gripping when I read it about 35 years ago. It is on my list of re-reads, hopefully some day.

[@keithrobinson7638]

I really appreciate the various versions that show as you’re discussing a book.

[@chiconeededthemoney]

Heinlein had several distinct phases. His juvenile phase, his mature phase and his weird phase. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Glory Road, Stranger in a Strange Land, Time Enough For Love are prime examples of his mature phase but you can see the start of his weird phase in some of them.

[@JerseyMiller]

Stranger in a Strange Land definitely left me with a weird taste in my mouth. I got the impression that Heinlein was pretty eccentric and freaky.

[@adamconnor1898]

I would classify Time Enough For Love as the beginning of his garbage period, but you can see disturbing elements even in Glory Road. Heinlein was a swinger in real life, so it may have just been his views coming into the open.

[@5400bowen]

@@adamconnor1898I think the swinger thing is a myth….

[@davidranderson1]

I found your observation about Asimov's writing style interesting and helpful. It also helped me to crystalize why I'm drawn to it. Come to think of it, I am most frequently drawn to writing that is driven by ideas and dialogue, with a minimum of descriptive imagery; just enough to set the stage.

[@paulbriody297]

Me too, it is what I like to read, so it sets my goals as a writer too.

[@cojaysea]

Asimov always said he could t write about romance or love scenes and murder was always committed “ off stage “ . His writing is always filled with dialogue between his People . I loved his writing it was simple but told of complex things .

[@friendlyone2706]

@@cojaysea Like his excellent non fiction writing.

[@mikecrawford9323]

"Orphans of the Sky" was originally two short stories published in Astounding Science Fiction in 1941 - "Universe" and "Common Sense". At that time, Katie Tarrant was John W. Campbell's first editor, whose primary goal was to purge all depictions of sex from any story printed in ASF. She didn't, however, get rid of domestic violence, which was barely a concept in 1941. Heinlein was writing for the market that was available to him, and the off-stage violence in OotS was unusual for him. Look at Heinlein's powerful female characters, long before other writers used them: "Mary", the skilled agent partnered with Sam Nivens in "The Puppet Masters"; Caroline Mshiyeni in "Tunnel in the Sky", "Peewee" in "Have Space Suit -- Will Travel", the protagonists in "Podkayne of Mars", "Friday", "I Will Fear No Evil", the numerous strong female characters sprinkled throughout his works. Nowhere is there a mousy, male-ruled housewife, and in a number of places women run things outright -- look carefully at Captain Hilda Corners in "The Number of the Beast/Pursuit of the Pankera", House Speaker Wyoming Knott-Davis from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", and the Empress of the Twenty Universes from "Glory Road".

[@meesalikeu]

yet its funny how one punched out women scene for a joke can unravel that. its like that old farmer joke, "look at that wall i built, but do they call me mcgregor the wall builder? and look at the beautiful plantings and gardens here, but do they call me mcgregor the landscaper? but you eff one goat ..."

[@B0BsBooks]

I am really happy to see you back here. I could listen to you talk about books for hours.

[@Paco8502]

New camera man!!! The picture is so much better (that speckle on the old one was killing me). Just fantastic!! So happy for you :-).

[@stevendorsey4882]

'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' was my favorite sci-fi book when I was a kid in high school. "Stranger in a Strange Land' was a close second. I also loved reading Asimov's Foundation books.

[@PlaguedbyVisions]

How did I just barely see this? 😭 Thank you for the kind words, of course! And I’m glad to see you’re still going strong on the challenge despite the temptation.

[@toddbaker3435]

This is one of the most interesting reviews I have seen. The books were an eclectic mix, but all were very familiar to me. I really want to comment, though, on The Master and Margarita. I'm not quite sure how I came to buy it originally, but it is one of those books that has had a profound impact on my life. I first read it in college--which was more years ago than I want to admit--but I recently bought a new edition, and need to read it again. It is indeed a masterpiece and I would urge anyone to read it. Your synopsis of it was perfect without giving too much away.

[@palacerevolution2000]

Love your reviews; intelligent, thoughtful, personal. I realized that had at one ;point, read most of the ones reviewed here.

[@rickkearn7100]

On Heinlein's Orphans of the Sky, you are so spot on to point out the misogyny and violence against women. I come from the generation Heinlein was writing for, and still, it didn't always sit right with me. I applaud your commitment to giving honest review of subjects that you have no practical time-contextual experience with, that is a very difficult path and rife with peril but you bravely take it on. Much respect. His "Glory Road" is one you might tryout one day, It is in my estimation a truly great adventure story for someone who came from my generation and someone who is himself a patriarch. Cheers.

[@johnnycampbell3422]

Glory Road was great, maybe a bit sexually advanced for a 10yo, but ended up lending some ideas I still carry as useful. Heinlein IRL was a swinger before it was cool, so, there is that if someone wants to judge him as a person.

[@MacAisling]

I liked Glory Road when I was in Jr High, but for me, it really did not age well. Very tween wish fulfillment fantasy chosen one stuff that I’ve read/seen so much of it turns me off if not done exceptionally well these days. For someone who read a lot of Heinlein in Jr High, I have never heard of Orphans of the Sky, but I have read/seen other works based on the concept of a generation ship that the population has forgotten it is living in a ship. I don’t remember what the main one was kicking around my brain, but most recently it was used in an episode of the Orville.

[@Irina35mm]

@@MacAisling Could it have been the tv series Ascension?

[@gregjacob83]

For the most part I've really enjoyed your lists and analysis of your favorite (and not so favorite) SF books. I'm 63 and have read literally thousands of SF books. I have to say I'm amazed that you have not read more Heinlein and especially look forward to your opinion of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" as it's probably my favorite SF book of all time. Anyway, enjoy watching your videos even though our SF tastes are quite a bit different.

[@5400bowen]

Yes mistress!!!!! These shipper snappers haven’t a clue.

[@davidchurch5932]

Heinlein or Asimov? Not even a question. For characterization Heinlein is always a better read than the characters of Isaac's work.

[@ubxs113]

I respectfully disagree.

[@willcool713]

Asimov was a poorer writer, I believe, but he had a vastly bigger imagination and contributed much more to social discourse. I believe he was far smarter than Arthur C Clarke, too, though Clarke would definitely think otherwise -- as would Heinlein. Those two had too much ego. Asimov was all ideas. His characterizations of people were from dialogue, rather than action. His writing had only limited physicality. Mostly he wrote as if everyone related to being up in their head all the time. I do.

[@apostrofo-c8x]

OH HELL NOO

[@Duck_Dodgers]

​@@willcool713don't think so Asimov boring and has very few ideas. Asimov is like comic books it's for kids

[@willcool713]

@@Duck_Dodgers Heinlein, Asimov, and Clarke are considered the Grand Masters of Sci-Fi (though I would include Lem, as well). So if you think Asimov is for children, you're obviously missing quite a bit, conceptually. If you're referring to his early Robot series, then yeah, that is largely YA material. But he was the most prolific writer of the three and had dozens upon dozens of books, fiction and non-fiction, and was a scholarly researcher in his own right. I'll agree his fictional characterisations ran a bit flat, and his plots were more cerebrally dramatic than action filled. But he was by far the smartest of the three, and the least cynical, and his books leapt through logical theory pretty quickly. If you don't keep up with the actual science, you'll always lose the plot, because that's what most of his stories were about, theory and philosophy.

[@tomspoors768]

I really appreciated Asimov's efforts to tie together his Elijah Bailey/R Daneel Olivaw universe with the Foundation universe. His expository style carried along with direct prose made him a wonderfully engaging writer. He was always came across as a humble man but clear about what he believed.

[@AcmePotatoPackingPocatello]

Well said. Exactly how I experience Azimov writing. The Elijah Bailey and R.Daneel Olivaw relationship is incredibly fun to read. I really grew to like R. Giskard - I wish Elon Musk could develop 2 Robots with the same demeanor , humans need help.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

It was in the 80’s (I believe) that he decided to put the Robot series and Foundation series together as being in the same universe. He admitted there were some incompatibilities, especially with his really early works, but he didn’t feel like going back to fix them. So he simply asked his readers to remember that combining the two was never his original intent.

[@theothergameygamer]

@@AcmePotatoPackingPocatello Elon musk doesn't develop anything but Elon Musk - he hires smart people to do the work and works hard to take the credit.

[@b.t.walker2295]

Star Trek TNG borrowed Asimov’s positron if brain for Data, and some of the Foundation plot line, too. Asimov is influential beyond his lifetime.

[@5400bowen]

@@b.t.walker2295and he said he read Heinleins first story and tried to copy him and never stopped copying him.

[@bobkeane7966]

Judging Heinlein or any author by today's standards when they are from a totally different era will skew your opinion. Even in some of Heinlein's later work where he is clearly placing women in positions of authority and as leaders he sometimes writes women more from a early 20th century man's point of view.

[@daveharris555]

I really enjoy your Content, thanks for sharing. Look forward of seeing more of your Videos. Fantastic!

[@leebronock887]

Good on you for being 'cautious' about the philosophy that Heinlein promoted. When I learned that he 'hung out' with L Ron Hubbard and participated in "questionable" activities, I began to look very closely at the world view he presented. Check out the book "Strange Angel" about the misfit JPL founding father Jack Parsons. Hubbard figures prominently in the tragedy of Parson's life. Heinlein was 'along with' Hubbard in dealing with Parsons and Thelema. Stay safe!

[@jthev]

I met Heinlein very briefly at the World Science Fiction convention in 1976. I was part of a group that attended with Sally Rand, noted fan dancer of yore. She attended the convention because Sally had gone to school with Heinlein and his brother. Her younger half-brother and his wife (Hank and Martha) were noted midwestern SF fans. We became friends through each of us having a close friendship with SF author Mike Resnick who, with his wife, were also part of that group.

[@garagegeek4863]

I hadn’t heard of Tono-Bungay. Again, your reviews are detailed and a pleasure to hear. Wow, that 100 book challenge is amazing. I might do that and document it.

[@mrhoplite2931]

Great channel! I really enjoyed your recommendations - and already ordered a couple of them.

[@joneckerle6209]

"The door into summer" read it and be glad you did. Cats always know what's right.

[@waltera13]

The lighting really captured the Sci-Fireplace Vibe. I really liked the whole vid. I've not gotten any real review/ feedback on Foundation since I was a teen & people were recommending it. Back when it wuz all we had. It's nice to think that they may be more readable than I remembered. The Bulgakov hasn't grabbed me yet. I've got that complete translation, but don't know enough about Russian gov't & cultural in-jokes (It's part of the fiber, like Dante.) When I've tried in the past I felt like I was missing something. Glad you conquered it! Good luck on your holy mission! I hope you've got a little wiggle room built in for "Great Deals & Opportunities too Unique to Pass up!!"

[@Bookpilled]

The Inferno comparison is very appropriate. A lot of the satire doesn't port that well to 2022 unless you happen to have deep knowledge about the cultural milieu of the time, which I don't. It is worth reading to the end even though it can be tedious.

[@phaedrus2633]

I'm 64 now, and I did most of my sci-fi reading while a teenager. I've read the "Foundation Trilogy". I remember having a REAL hard time getting into Asimov, but it was somewhat rewarding when I did. I guess. Heinlein was just a lot easier for me to read as a teen. I just read the more juvenile books, "Starship Trooper", "Door Into Summer" and one or two others.

[@phaedrus2633]

@@cag19549 I'm also amazed at the indignity of a lot of our youth of how horrible it was to use the atom bomb to end World War II. People in my father's home town, would read about people they knew, once or twice a week dying in the Pacific. They have no idea of what living throuth the tragedy of a war is all about. I went over to Japan in 2013 and, probably I shouldn't, but I let it be known that I do not, and never will apology for using the bomb.

[@phaedrus2633]

@@cag19549 Bookpilled clearly, and quite transparently and honestly identifies himself a left-wing. Fair enough. But I tried to message him quite privately about his view and was confronted with an overly emotional response. So, I don't think he's interested in a rational analysis of anything, including something as mundane as science fiction. Also, I have to say, that the books he points out as, in his opinion, the top of the league of science fiction, while I admit that they have excellent prose, are just not all the interesting of a read, "Roadside Park", "Solaris", "Frankenstein", and more.

[@judewarner1536]

Much of Heinlein's early output was seemingly aimed at a teen audience, elsewhere someone described it as juvenile, though there may be adult moments. His move towards more thoughtful, even progressive, liberal literature began for me (in the order in which I read them!) with ''Glory Road'' (1963) and was at a peak with ''Stranger in a Strange Land'' (1961). If you haven't read ''Stranger... '', you cannot ''get'' Heinlein. His best known work, because of the Hollywood movie, is ''Starship Troopers''. Both the book (1959) and the movie (1997) are deeply ironical and are often dismissed as fascist because of the failure to recognise this. And here's the nub: Heinlein tells a story about the human condition, but does not spoon-feed obvious morals to the reader. In ''Orphans of the Sky'', I'm fairly certain that Heinlein is testing the reader's inclination to go along with the portrayal of misogyny, rather than exemplifying it as a normative social construct; it is classic Heinlein. While Heinlein's work is woven around progressive morals and can get quite raunchy, Asimov's is woven around hard science and potential social consequences. In terms of predicting 21st century hardware, nobody else from that era has come close. Arthur C Clarke made a couple of pretty amazing predictions, including a patent for geo-stationary satellite communications but Asimov's novels and particularly short stories are full of stuff that we now use on a daily basis. From the end of the 1950s, Heinlein's novels were more literate and much more complex than Asimov's. The latter excited my awareness of science, while Heinlein manifested my liberal tendencies, contrary to most people's reading of him.

[@5400bowen]

Asimov said he read Heinleins’ first story and tried to do that and never stopped.

[@5400bowen]

Heinlein was contracted to write books for young readers, which I suspected since 1966, and it is referred to as his juvenile stuff.

[@michaelcooley4553]

My favorite Heinlein is Tunnel in the Sky. I think its a deeply underappreciated work.

[@chrisstout8451]

One of my favorite books I read in middle school. I have a copy now and reread it every now and then.

[@emsleywyatt3400]

Ditto the Puppet Masters.

[@KcityMikeThomas]

A Stranger in a Strang Land is a fav. I loved all of the foundation novels. Asimov is so easy and fun to read that you don't want to stop.

[@Irina35mm]

I feel like adding to your Master & Margarita description... For me reading it was SO much FUN! There's this flourishing imagination let loose that I'm bummed you didn't mention. It felt so... free, perhaps from Bulgakov's knowing that it might never be published (although that may be his style, I don't know, it's the only one I read by him so far). One of my favourites ever, honestly blew me away

[@boromirjonah5774]

Great reviews. I have read all of Heinlein"s library except about 6 titles my favorite is "door into summer" BTW it would take me probably 3 years to read 100 books. It will be so cool to follow you on this journey.

[@Psykldoc]

DUDE!! I’m also NOT a Heinlein fan, but you gotta read “Stranger…” and the backstory of Heinlein’s attitude about it! Seriously! It practically (and thoroughly, ironically) chronicled the heart and soul that drove the 60’s!! That book was transformative to myself, and certain of my closest friends.

[@randysmith9715]

I have a copy of the original (longer) version!

[@philipspencer1834]

Heinlein was of his time. Don’t judge these authors by today’s standards. The two books you mentioned but are missing are potentially his best. This author was one of my gateways to Sci-fi. Very readable.

[@buddhabillybob]

You really nailed Asimov's appeal: complex and interesting ideas conveyed in direct, elegant prose. Much of his nonfiction is the same. It took Asimov's book on the bible to prod me into reading the Old Testament. Ton--Bungay is now on my TBR. Excellent video. Good luck on your 100 book challenge! I should do the same the same thing...

[@KcityMikeThomas]

I wish I would have kept my copy of Asimov's book on the bible.

[@davidhall8656]

I love the Master & Margherita, glad you enjoyed it. Which translation did you read? Some are based on an incomplete text first smuggled out of USSR, missing some good scenes. But even the incomplete versions are great (includes my favorite translation, Mirra Ginsburg).

[@Bookpilled]

Interesting. My copy was translated by Diana Burgin and Katherine O'connor

[@waltera13]

@@Bookpilled That was the first complete text translation in the US .

[@davidhall8656]

That's a highly praised translation of the complete text. I've read others, but plan to read that one at some point

[@jackiegerarde9938]

Same here. Great book. Will check out other translation mentioned. Love this channel!

[@rwissbaum9849]

You're not the first person to note the thread of misogyny that runs through many of Heinlein's works. I read most of his stuff when I was a teenager, so a lot of those attitudes pretty much went over my head. If you're still looking for books that might change your mind, consider: (1) The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which is really Heinlein's libertarian manifesto, but is a very good SF novel on its own; (2) Double Star, which could easily have been written as mainstream fiction; (3) Starship Troopers, the yardstick by which I measure all military SF; (4) The Puppet Masters, one of my two favorite alien invasion books (the other being Footfall); (5) Methuselah's Children, which pretty much defies categorization other than its social commentary; and (6) The Door Into Summer, an interesting take on time travel. In my opinion, Stranger in a Strange Land does not live up to the hype, and just about everything Heinlein wrote after The Moon... was not as good as the stuff he wrote in the 50s and 60s.

[@tectorgorch8698]

Wow, I read the Bulgakov about 30(?) years ago and now I've got to read it again. Your description of it reminds me a GREAT deal of The Ice Trilogy by Vladimir Sorokin. There's a big fat NYRB edition of that one out there and it is well worth the time and effort. And good luck!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I've read Sorokin and you have a point, but I think there's that Russian Fabulist tradition thing in lots of other former Soviet/Eastern Bloc writing, SF or otherwise - both Lem and the Strugatskys display this at times too.

[@bah8925]

I am glad I found your channel. You will be big one day.

[@emosongsandreadalongs]

Dang, the 100 book challenge sounds wild. I should do something like that, but I might have to start with just 10 haha

[@cassfonnesbeck8057]

So happy to see you!

[@ecalhoon1]

Great video! I hope you still make some book haul videos for the ones you are buying to sell. Those are great!

[@danalotzgesell538]

Try "Door into Summer," by Heinlein. That was always my favorit Heinlein book. Dana

[@johnchafin3817]

Having grown up with Heinlein and more recently working my way through multiple juveniles and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress you are missing something. His writing shows always the greatest respect for women and believes they should be put on a pedestal. Any man that treats a woman poorly or is disrespectful is not a man at all. The women in his novels are generally independent, smart intelligent and certainly not laughed at. It has been a long time since I read this particular book but now I need to go read it to see if you are correct. Chance are he was making a point on how low these men were to treat women so poorly.

[@Hapsard]

I was a Russian major, and read the Master and Margarita for a lit class (thank God we read this one in English! Would not have had the strength to look up vocabulary and follow the story). Loved it and have been meaning to re-read it this many years later. Good luck with the challenge. Question: what if your app tells you to read the second book in a series you haven't read? Not sure my nature would allow me to do that 😆

[@Bookpilled]

I leave later books in series out of the list on the app

[@eliteakm]

Heart of a dog by Bulgakow is really good too. Its just 150 pages and very different to Master i Margarita but i really enjoyed it too so u might wanna give it a chance.

[@IntheClutch75]

STAND YOUR GROUND. I grew up with Heinlein, and he'll kind of always have a special place in my heart because of that. But re-reading him as an adult is harrowing sometimes. If you think he's misogynistic now, I guarantee you A STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND is most definitely not gonna change your mind. And I say that with a heavy heart. It was one of my favorites for years.

[@hueyiroquois3839]

I don't know anything about this channel, but "sci-fireplace" is a good enough reason to sub. Edit: But then you ruined it by complaining about "misogyny".

[@austinpratt1923]

Does that mean you are a misogynist yourself or that you don't know what the word means?

[@hueyiroquois3839]

@@austinpratt1923 The only Heinlein novel I've read is "The Number of the Beast." It was pretty sexist, but I don't remember there being any misogyny in it.

[@klipkultur2951]

Sleep is important (science says), please do take care, and thanks again... for all that reading!!!

[@moderskeppets]

Great vid as always!

[@waltera13]

GVA!

[@MediaDeathCult]

Nice lighting

[@Bookpilled]

Thanks man

[@ravon1982]

Am looking for a book from him, I was listening to terence mckenna talk about a book of his , in which he forgot the title. about a man seeing glitches in the matrix. one scene about a man walks out of his house and see's a winged worm crawl from the ground then then begin to fly off. do you have any idea?

[@Nick-Nasti]

Asmiov is often considered the best Sci-fi writer of all time (or at least one of the top 3-4) and Heilein has 1-2 landmark books that shaped millions of people's lives. Sci-fi book reviewer: "I've only read one short story by Asimiv", "Have not read Stranger in a Starnge Land" Advice: stop whatever you are doing and read every book by both authors. Until then, your credibility is in question. I know this may sound harsh, but you'd never visit a doctor that hadn't treated a common cold before. However, do keep up the reviews and I'll keep watching. Thank you.

[@llamallamaduck4450]

It's so strange to think of Majstor and Margarita as a fantasy book since I immediately think of lotr type things but it's one of my favorite books I've ever read

[@friendlyone2706]

When I read Asimov's foundation trilogy as a teen, I was familiar with Gibbon's The Rise & Fall of the Roman Empire, and remember Asimov's ideas as vividly as any physical description. Asimov's basic idea that humans as individuals cannot be predicted, but humans in large enough numbers can be -- reflective of Shakespeare's famous line "There is a tide in the affairs of men" combined with fascination with Roman history which effected much 50's sci fi, such as Lest Darkness Fall, sets the cultural environment that made Asimov's Foundation instantly popular.

[@johnkillink]

Great video! I was super exited about Asimov's trilogy but I had to drop it. im an architect and the lack of description and interaction was so much that I couldn't keep reading it.

[@danalotzgesell538]

Do try Door into Summer & Double Star. You might feel better about Heinlein. Of course, he did get so pedantic after Stranger in a Strange Land. I didn't care for SiaSL either, I do have to admit. I am not sure he is as much a misogynist as you have concluded. Anyway, think about DiS & DS. Yours, Dana

[@feedigli]

The later Heinlein books are all like one long novel, and his writing, never very psychologicially deep or stylistically dynamic, settled into a cliched formula. A wise, wealthy, near omnipotent, ancient patriarch pontificates; kinda meta, as the kids say nowadays, Heinlein living his dream novelistically. But he covered a lot of territory w/ consistently good quality in his earlier years. His juvenile novels were very satisfying to me as a kid, and really hooked me on reading. And with his engineering/practical turn of mind, a number of products/trends have come to be in real life: water beds, slidewalks (mainly in airports, but I think of him when I ride one), awareness of ecology, potential theocratic dictatorship in the US, loosening of sexual mores.

[@shorttimer874]

For me, this video is a bit of an education on how we all see something differently. I read to see where the author is going to take me and what new things I'm going to see along the way. I most likely pick up on underlying themes along the way, but they are not my main focus.

[@skiphoffenflaven8004]

Thanks so much for the Wells recommendation!

[@johngulino2651]

I agree with his (the commentator’s) point about Heinlein: he’s a very talented writer, but I struggled with his personality and values. 😩👍👍🏻👍🏽👍🏾👍🏿 And I remember these aspects from reading Heinlein decades ago, maybe four or five decades ago.

[@5400bowen]

That is all from a complete falsehood about him. His writings got to be too much after 1970 or so due to severe illness and pain, and pain killers. And really a tragic life from the start. But none of it was literal. He wanted to show things and make you think, not accept. Big differences.

[@Aslowfade]

Great new look. Have you brought a new camera.

[@Bookpilled]

Yes, new camera and new mic.

[@leefranklin3054]

Chanced into your channel and I am impressed, and subscribed. I love hearing someone talking about books, especially science fiction, and enjoy listening while working at my desk (Work work, or hobby work). Brian Aldiss did a MUCH better send-up of the concept behind Orphans of the Sky, titled "Starship" or "Non-Stop" in the UK in 1958. Heinlein published Orphans in 1963. Read the original, please. At least, I think it is the first book on the topic. Aldiss was an amazing and thoughtful author.

[@mike9rr]

I am modifying my comment on Heinlein and I'm going to cut him some slack in light of the era he was from. Am re-reading "The Roads Must Roll", and found, yes he was chauvinistic - like a lot of sci-fi writers from then, but he presciently created a character much like Donald J. Trump. This was the renegade engineer who took over by installing cronies and like minded everywhere he could. The only flaw to this story was Heinlein underestimated how easy it would be to restore order. So read Heinlein, but with the times and his personality in mind. I was too hard on him.

[@wmeisel]

KZbin recommended your channel to me and I just wanted to drop you a note and let you know how much I am enjoying your reviews and your approach to them. I also couldn't get through any E.E.Doc Smith I have tried, so I know we are simpatico. If you are not familiar with Barrington Bayley, I reccomend Fall of Chronopolis and Collision Course, two books with fascinating approaches to time travel. The female characters are badly drawn, but not as bad, I think, as the Heinlein book you review here. Best.

[@darkwitnesslxx]

When I was 11, i read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (then only a true trilogy) followed immediately by Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. Those two books together sent me down a rabbit hole, specifically in regards to religion, for the next decade or so. Neither are peak science fiction writing, but they formed such a large part of my worldview it's hard not to love them. Stranger is among my top 5 books.

[@shaihulud7316]

Libertarians like myself really dig Heinlein's work

[@johneyton5452]

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss"

[@leematthews6812]

The two Heinlein books you haven't read are the only ones I have!

[@daveingram9240]

Try Glory Road- also by Heinlein - maybe its not strictly Science Fiction but it cerainly sparked a new and different genre

[@mpetersen6]

The audio edition is hilarious

[@AcmePotatoPackingPocatello]

In 7th grade I read Foundation Trilogy. That was 1965 a.d. All the books associated with the characters from Bailey. the detective, and the robots Daneel and Giskard of the Robot series to the Foundation Trilogy. And beyond. Clearly written. Cleverly plotted. Thoroughly enjoyable characters that you care about. Something Iain Banks couldn't quite do. Nor Philip K.Dick. Nor Heinlien Nor Clarke Frank Herbert did it with DUNE only of that series. But Frank Herbert's protagonist in Whipping Star, Dosadi Experiment was great. Loved him. Azimov tho was a master of likeable characters.

[@jacklewis5452]

Herbert acknowledged that Dune took place in Asimov's galactic empire.

[@AcmePotatoPackingPocatello]

​@@jacklewis5452 If you liked robot series. You gotta read Velocity Weapon By Megan o'Keefe

[@libertycowboy2495]

Love Robert Heinlein! Love the Lazarus Long books. Do you not like his pushing individual initiative and responsibility? He was my first sci fi and still my fave.

[@toi_techno]

Nothing we take for granted in a modern society comes from individual initiative or personal responsibility. Try building yourself a car or a computer from unprocessed ores and rare earths and you'll see how much you depend on the hugely complex systems of interdependency and social responsibility that allow us in the West to live in the comfort we do. Individual initiative or personal responsibility are notions used by the top 10% to trick the rest of us into accepting our meagre share of the wealth we create with our work, as a function of their lack of "pep" and not pulling their socks up high enough. Heinlein was just a standard rich, white, "conservative", Neo-fascist, otherwise known in the states as a "Republican" 😅

[@richardanderson1988]

Sorry you didn’t get the “wink” that Heinlein put in Orphans in the Sky. He has done this in other books, although maybe not to this extent. It’s his way of poking the reader to really think about what was written, that “heroes” may not be perfect, but are shaped by their environment and culture. As you said, this story doesn’t belong in the juvenile series. Yes, Heinlein fans are very protective of him, partly because he was so far ahead of his time, sometimes shockingly so. If you grew up in the ‘50’s as I did and started with his juveniles then moved on to his adult stories, you would probably have a different perspective and appreciation of his vision, his Future Histories. I would recommend Starship Troopers (a lot different than the movie), Time Enough For Love (sequel to Methuselah’s Children), Number of the Beast (Lots of winks), The Door Into Summer (He does show some demons left from his first marriage), Farnham’s Freehold (ditto…difficult to appreciate), and last but not least- Job: A Comedy of Justice ( Wow!). No offense, but if you haven’t even read Stranger in a Strange Land or Moon is a Harsh Mistress, you really don’t know Heinlein. Hopefully, after reading more of him, you will see why Heinleiners are the way they are. For short stories, I would highly recommend “The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag”, and “All You Zombies-“ Lastly, for sheer fun, “Magic, Inc.” Happy reading.

[@etsequentia6765]

Number of the Beast is actually a clear indication that Heinlein is an aggressive misandrist.

[@richardanderson1988]

@@etsequentia6765 Really? Well, I think you are half right in that he aggressively promotes ideas, but it would help if you provided examples of the other. Lazarus Long, Dr. Jacob Burroughs and Zeb Carter don’t fit in that category, IMO.

[@terminalman1795]

We won’t forget the StarCraft:Liberty’s Crusade snub! Also are you still planning on an updated Top Sci-Fi list?

[@Bookpilled]

Yes, coming soon

[@peterpuleo2904]

I empathize with your conundrum about buying books that remain unread. I probably have about 100 books, fiction and nonfiction, sitting lonely and neglected on my shelves, and yet I must fight the temptation to buy more. Bibliophiles have that in common, even if all they collect are cheap, raggedy paperbacks.

[@space_patrolman]

I also struggle to explain The Master and Margarita - which makes it hard to convince people to read it.

[@soniashapiro4827]

Heinlein is so self-indulgent. Even his better books. His later ones are even more obviously an exercise in juvenile onanism.

[@emosongsandreadalongs]

I also have yet to find a Heinlein that really grabs me. I'm going through the Hugo winners in publication order, so I've read Double Star and Starship Troopers. They were both fine but nothing that wowed me

[@5400bowen]

You are way to young to get the context of the time he wrote his stuff. Before Star Trek, before Star Wars, there was very little but Heinlein and Asimov. Note that it is people under 40/50 that don’t have a good impression of Heinlein, because so many later works were built on his foundation and drew many, many specifics of style and content from him. After growing up with the later stuff, sure, he doesn’t seem that impressive.

[@secretsauceofstorycraft]

Matt, my friend, I am rather sad you didn't appreciate Orphans in the Sky, since I did. I saw the ridiculousness of sexism in that book (including the end) as more of a satire and statement about how humanity still hasn't learned or recovered from it's immaturity. But I could be adding that in my head to get over the ridiculousness of it. Will have to re-read it at some point. Also I hope, very surreptitiously, the books convert you into a "book reader" and not just a "book buyer" and you go on to continue past these 100. Thanks for your videos as always

[@oqmdnt392]

Dude, you haven't read "Stranger in a strange land?"?!? I'm Shocked!

[@mike-williams]

Your etsy link doesn't work. Closed? Renamed?

[@donaldb1]

After _Orphans of the Sky_ you should check out a later, quite different and I think much more interesting take on the theme in Brian Aldiss' _Non Stop._

[@waltera13]

Dude, if he didn't like something as simple as "Orphans", ADDING more "Heinlein pontificates" to the book is NOT a selling point! 😉

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@waltera13 I'd add my vote to 'Non-Stop', which is a masterpiece of Conceptual Breakthrough and superior to 'Orphans', which I quite like, though with Matt's misgivings.

[@waltera13]

​@@outlawbookselleroriginal , @donaldb1 My mistake, I COMPLETELY misread donaldb1's book recommendation & thought he was offering a later HEINLEIN - which is not what he wrote. I'm not quite sure WHAT I *thought* he said. MUCH better to read this on a proper screen, the phone is tiny & jumpy. Lookit me, jumping the gun like a Mutie!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@waltera13 - It did baffle me a tad! There's an explanation for everything, right? Hang in there, man.

[@joem7889]

Just want to add a comment on your Heinlein selection, Orphans in the Sky. I read this. I read this in junior high in the 70's. I vaguely remember this now that you mentioned. A lot what you mention must have flown over my head at the time. The only thing I remember about it now was some ignorant character throwing books into an energy converter. I also remember thinking how "different" this was to find in my school's library. As a young teen, I thought it was kinda cool. I don't think I was influenced too badly by it. Heinlein at his best would be Time Enough for Love, Number of the Beast, or Job: A Comedy of Justice.

[@Koooles]

Hey, do you have goodreads or ever planning in getting it? I know it's considered Facebook of books, but I have found it somewhat useful in finding new books and would love to have more authors who have more niche sci fi picks to follow!

[@juanitabrown5145]

I am quite curious as what you'll think of Heinlein's values once you finish Stranger in a Strange Land. It's .... surprising.

[@lynnrobinson8885]

What about “The Door Into Summer”? - one of my favourites. The book you are critiquing was meant for the Juvenile’s, boys 8-13 yrs. old. If you would like to know Heinlein the “man” better, you should read “Grumbles From The Grave”. It is: a collection of letters back and forth with his agent of many years and other correspondences, together with information about his private every day life. He went into the navy early, but had to be discharged with a medical problem that he developed. Being rather young, he still required an income for living. He saw an advertisement for writing a story to win $75 dollars. He won, and never looked back. He lead a rather interesting life and his imagination began earning him a good living, He married and travelled, writing about his trips around the world (3 times) with his wife, and bits here and there about the two houses he designed and built, with the help of his wife. He mentions buying a silver mine, but….not much silver. He ran for public office on the Republican ticket, but didn’t get it. Actually, I pull it out often just for a quick look for certain things. He had started the “collection” when he was much older, as a way to leave behind a “book” to be published after his death, for some extra income for his wife. I found it a very fascinating read and it helped me understand him better with regards to a lot of things he was passionate about - especially cats (Pixel). There were a number of pages of day-to-day communications from letters back and forth with his agent and other writers, in which the writers expressed themselves sometimes very “hotly”, and “uniquely”, that he hoped very much would eventually be in that book, but ended up not being left in by his wife “because of their very nature”. The only book of his I did not like was “Stranger In A Strange Land”. I found the plot difficult to follow and was unclear of the exact point of the book. However, it was written when he was very ill, just before his brain surgery. I don’t know if that impacted that work or not. The “Grumbles…” book gives a real in-depth look into the kind of man he was. He and his wife were nudists, studied languages to learn before visiting countries, went roller skating as a recreational pastime in the forties. He believed education was very important, believed in standing up for one’s beliefs, believed in the importance of “passages of rights” for young boys. He believed in groups like Scouting and such were important for boys in learning how to grow up with the right outlook on societal values. The reason I liked Heinlein so much is because the science he talked about, that had already existed, was real science. The science worked, the math worked, and where he made up stories and the people in them, they were from real places. All of these “things” and “places” and even “names of scientists” he refers to were all real - I could go and look them up - and I did. That’s how I learned about Mount Shasta ( and the sacred mountain poem), and the creation stories (that told me about The Legend of Mu). The “ people” and “places” in his made up stories were real. If he talked about time-travel, you would learn about real science that he made sound like “pseudoscience”. The names of scientists he mentions were real, and you could look up and follow the “science” behind the names. He loved Samuel Clemens, having lived in the same place in Missouri. Theseare just some of the many reasons I keep picking up his books all these past 63 years of mine (I am 72) : the following is how I came to look at his writing over the years and these are just y opinions. His stories could be told using a basic plot line, which he then “skewed” to his liking. Then he selected the characters he wanted, and made them come to life by using bits and pieces of “real people” he saw and met in his life and travels. Then he would “salt and pepper” his stories with real experiences of other’s “real lives” from people he met. When he had to explain the “how, why and where”, he used real “science” to make it sound like “pseudo-science” and used real “math” to make it sound futuristic. The settings for “where” were based on real parts of the world he often travelled to. This is just my way of looking at how he may have approached his writing. But I’m still picking up all of his books over and over again, and still enjoying them after all these years. Sorry about the length, but you wanted to know about one of my favourite writers!!

[@PoeLemic]

Loved the length and the deep dive into Heinlein's life. I didn't know all of those things, and I grew up reading sci-fi. However, please, in future, break this up into paragraphs with spacing between it. It is very hard for people to read when they have vision-impairments. So, I had to copy it out, break up, then read it. And, I kept getting lost, so I extra spaced. But, I really took the time to read it and appreciate what you said. I wrote down the good books you talked about.

[@PoeLemic]

Also, search below to this guy ... "Robert Hasse 3 months ago (edited)". And, you can see how much easier it is to read than a really long paragraph.

[@lynnrobinson8885]

@@PoeLemic My apologies, I didn’t know the rules for KZbin, but will do so in the future. Thank you for your suggestions. My other favourite book of his, “Time Enough For Love”, is really good. He ties everything together in this and has drawn a timeline for all the families in it. I don’t know how he kept it all straight. Another, a book of shorter stories is called: “We Also Walk Dogs”. I think you would enjoy that as well - nice to curl up with on cold winters days. All my life I sought out good sci-fi writers whose writing introduced me to other good writers and scientists in their own right. You might want to check out “The Robert Heinlein Society” channel on line, free, where they have every document he kept and you can read some of his very personal letters and even some can be purchased - as copies. I have over 450 books in a small sunny bedroom we turned into a lovely library- I could spend days at a time in there! (Sorry again for the length, but you did sound interested, and I just wanted to help). Hope you enjoy all of these, and I would be pleased to answer any queries you have in the future. I was even contacted by one of the writers from “ The New Yorker” two years ago over a rather long report I gave on the importance of reading in general and how it benefits us, and I gave them an interview. They had read one of my rather long stories about the importance of reading, and how necessary and essential I felt it has been in our social and intellectual understanding of our world and the people who live in it. Oh, and please, please try to find Judith Merril’s edited anthologies, from 1959 to 1965, I think. She gave an overview for every story that was selected by other well know sci-fi writers who won awards annually. I was missing only two copies but quickly found found them at “Abe’s Books” , online in New York City, at very good prices. He was an encyclopedia! My very best to you!

[@StElna]

Last month, having seen these on your channel, I read Inside Outside by Philip Jose Farmer and (I think I saw this on your channel) A Werewolf Among Us by Dean Koontz. Both have phenomenal covers and are very good books too. Thanks

[@peterpuleo2904]

Brings back a memory. Back about 60 years ago when I was in high school I had paperback "Inside Outside", which is all I remember.

[@PoeLemic]

@@peterpuleo2904 Yes, Farmer is awesome. If you haven't read the Riverworld series, please, get some time and do it. I loved it and changed my viewpoints of the world in high school.

[@PoeLemic]

Yes, Elna, read Riverworld by Farmer. It really gives an unique perspective on many topics, and it changed (or started to change) my understanding & view of religion, greatly.

[@brendacorrea9167]

What do you opinionate on H.G Wells The Island of Doctor Mearou?

[@armandogonzalez8636]

you didn't like starship troopers from heinlein? Not a complicated read but I found it to be a fun one like the Ender's Game

[@Bookpilled]

I read it when I was a teenager, might re-read sometime way down the line. Also read Forever War at the same time and preferred it

[@dawnmoriarty9347]

Starship Troopers the book is very different from the film. I think the book is more interesting and shows Heinlein actually thinking

[@deadcowaroma5787]

From what I remember, Stranger in a Strange Land had similar misogynistic views that turned me off. Something to the effect of rape victims deserve what they get. I never finished the book so I don’t know if it ever condemned this view point, but it really didn’t seem like it was going to (and judging from your review, I think I was probably right).

[@dawnmoriarty9347]

Having recently read some hippy history, I think he was mocking the counterculture in this book. Ironically it was absolutely adored at the time

[@Steve_Stowers]

I enjoyed the "Modern Classics Summarized" take on Stranger in a Strange Land. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZuknKOip7-Wn5I

[@robertblume2951]

@@dawnmoriarty9347nag, he is the old man Michael learns everything from.

[@nmfixed]

Thanks for the thoughtful reviews. I feel like you can be a trusted guide based on your reviews of the books I've read. Heinlein feels like he never actually got past writing pulp for teenagers, although I admit a fondness for Stranger and Time Enough for Love, possibly for that reason. Reading Foundation novels in parallel with the Lije Bailey novels is a fun contrast. Subbed, good luck with the 100 books vids

[@bennaustin6632]

Whoah. Asimov is one of my all time favourite authors. Including his short stories. His characters are mostly likeable and his humour often comes through

[@zsedcftglkjh]

Heinlein all the way. Asminov is a weird transhumanist whose idea of a utopia is Brave New World levels of distopia. Asminov sacrifices humanity for his vision.

[@wereflea8496]

Foundation was written when Asimov was 19 years old. He would write approx. 800 books with a huge number non fiction and science books. Robocop was Heinlein's power suit direct descendant in film and probably Iron Man too. Heinlein and Asimov both worked together (along with another sci-fi/fantasy writer L. Sprague de Camp) during WW2 in the same research lab. Loved Heinlein's low gravity flying dome where people donned wings and flew in the moon's low gravity and Asimov's critique of supposed scholars who merely quoted other scholars rather than doing any new research on their subject. Like people on KZbin do so much.

[@michaelbarnard3636]

Also, for what it's worth, try to read the original version of Stranger In A Strange Land... the expanded version is (ALSO MY OPINION) unnecessary. Starship Troopers is actually one of my favorites (of Heinlein) mainly because the pacing is tighter and there's only one chapter of Heinlein egregiously lecturing the audience.

[@edwardspeece8144]

Have you read “Grumbles from the grave”?

[@penelopegreene]

So the Heinlein Estate never sued TSR, or the team behind The Starlost?

[@selwynr]

Bulgakov is an absolute master. Sorokin is also brilliant, he's a descendent/disciple of Bulgakov and Gogol.

[@jorgerapalo2673]

I often think it curious that Heinlein was at his time considered a much superior writer because of his greater skill on giving detailed texture (not the same as "depth") to his characters and worlds, as opposed to very sparse, dry and unadorned works of Asimov. But in many ways this made Heinlein appear much more dated on the long run because his attempt to use more real-life mannerisms and colloquial speech and thought made his works much more "fixed" on his time and place. Asimov also became much better known internationally, where he was always regarded as THE SF writer, while Heinlein was much more of an US/English-speaking author. Most of my contemporaries in Latin America, where I live, would instantly recognize Asimov by name alone, while none had ever even heard of Heinlein. Some critical studies have even commented on the importance of Heinlein not just in the development of the genre but also as an exemplar of a very USA-centric narrative of his culture and times.

[@jorgerapalo2673]

Asimov in his pared-down narratives, became, thus, more universal.

[@alf.2929]

Of those 100 books you must read can you DNF a book if you're not feeling it or must you power through them whether you like it or not? If you're going to allow yourself to DNF a book at which point of the book can you DNF. Is it the first 50 pages or 100 pages?

[@waltera13]

That's tough - you've got to *really* give it a chance; a lot of writers are all about setting up a world the point of which is the inversion of ripping it down. Then again, a lot of the older books are less than 200 pp long, so 100 seems too generous!

[@Bookpilled]

I don't have a hard rule about page quotas. I tend to put a book down if the writing is bad. DNFs do not count towards the 100.

[@citrinedragon1466]

At fifteen/sixteen I was sick enough I had to stay home from school, and the library.... thus I ended up borrowing books from my brother's bookshelf. Stranger in a Strange Land became my first ever scifi book... and for that reason I loved it. Almost all the rest of his books left me wondering why I could not relate to them.

[@chrisw6164]

Heinlein drives me insane too. There’s a great writer in there somewhere. But I’m not a fan of the stream-of-consciousness writing and the conversations that go on for dozens of pages.

[@waltera13]

Heinlein: So Far the original short story / novella of "Orphans of the Sky" stands out as good old school SF, his novels vary from "eh, ok" to "Would you PLEASE shut the F*** up!"

[@Maidez09]

I have never read Heinlein but I have a copy of Moon is a Harsh Mistress on my Kindle. Honestly dreading reading it now.

[@waltera13]

@@Maidez09 You probably don't have to worry. Full disclosure: I haven't read that one yet. But it's one of his older books which is a plus, and it's basically men working together to overcome engineering problems (as I understand it) so that's kind of right in his wheelhouse. They might be dated, but dated space adventure is kind of a valid flavor. I think a lot of people are turned off when he tries to be more literary and starts running off at the mouth about his opinions and his utopianism and his complete inability to see that his utopia's are full of his psychological problems and character failings. The only thing making it worse is that it's like being trapped next to him in a room as he keeps telling you about these things again and again.

[@dawnmoriarty9347]

@@Maidez09 don't worry. It's an interesting book about an almost accidental society that grows up alongside a penal colony. How they gained independence plus some hard science explaining gravity in a practical way and a view of a possible way machine consciousness might be

[@greenatom]

I don't find Heinlein always enjoyable, but I will be forever grateful for a concept elucidated by one of his characters (a stand-in for himself): a nuclear power plant is no less natural than a beaver dam.