BotR / Forgotten Weapons Collaboration! 4 Annoying Gun Myths

BotR Patreon: / blokeontherange
More than a whole hour of Ian and Mike shooting the... erm... breeze about four annoyingly persistent, and persistently annoying, gun myths! Complete with whisky, a veritable multitude of digressions and a Lindybeige cameo!
In order to help you navigate and split watching this video up over several settings, here's a handy contents guide. Click on the timestamps to jump to that point.
1:33 Topic 1: M1 Garand Ping
6:49 Roy Dunlap: Patient Zero
7:42 M1's and BAR's in the jungle with corrosive ammo
9:40 The earliest known written reference to the Ping myth
10:09 Aberdeen and plastic clips? Nope.
11:17 By Korea the US military knew about the myth: lessons learned
12:31 Lindybeige cameo!
13:30 Noisy M1 safety catches
16:04 Topic 2: BREN too accurate
17:52 What the British BREN training was aiming for
18:22 Digression on use of equipment, doctrine and manuals
20:02 Back to the point on cones of fire
23:06 Oh no! Dunlap again!
24:57 Dunlap's cool anecdotes
27:14 More Whisky...
28:41 Doctrine on holding the BREN to get accuracy
31:29 Topic 3: Unrealistic WW2 bolt action accuracy
33:48 Some notes on normal 20:20 vision and seeing things to hit them
37:48 Cost effectiveness vs accuracy; timber
39:47 Lee-Enfield accuracy standards, sniper rifles
42:10 Free-floated No.4's as a wartime emergency measure; Lend-Lease
43:27 Soldiers prohibited from taking rifles out of their wood
44:41 Summary of the point: accuracy of rifles and skill level of soldiers
47:44 Points about early adoptions of Maxim guns
49:12 Ammunition available for training pre-WW1
50:16 Some points on WW2 German ammo allowances and training
52:12 German 300m Gew 98 accuracy standard
54:30 Bringing the previous point back to sniper rifles
58:40 Topic 4: Mythical versions of the "Mad Minute"
59:06 Shout out to Rob of Britishmuzzleloaders
1:00:07 The various tame-ish versions of the myth
1:02:30 The version Ian sees a lot
1:03:10 Snoxall and Wallingford's records
1:04:06 What the reality seems to have been
1:04:44 How this kind of thing gets inflated
1:07:02 German "rapid fire" exercises for WW2
Ian's channel: / forgottenweapons
Lindybeige's channel: / lindybeige
BotR Facebook: / blokeontherange
Guns mentioned:
MG42, BREN, Lee Enfield, 1903 Springfield, SMLE, Schmidt-Rubin K31, CETME-L, StG 44, MAS-36, Gewehr 98, Steyr M95 Mannlicher straight pull
Many thanks to Ian of Forgotten Weapons for setting this up!

[@christianminton]

Love the Lindybeige cameo. You guys, InRange, Lindybeige, British Muzzleloaders, and C&Rsenal covers about all the KZbin I need.

[@reidparker1848]

Yeah, none of the horse-crap spewed by Military History Visualized/Battle Order: "I think that weapons designs are 'minutae', you should really be looking at the 785th Light Flanking Division!" In other words, they are gatekeeping bastards.

[@Azerkeux]

@@reidparker1848 Lindy Beige was genuinely wrong and even Ian McCollum had something to say about it, I really wouldn't defend that guy when pressed he called everyone fanboys and got really salty

[@sarchlalaith8836]

@@Azerkeux lindy is a bit of a drama llama

[@bonzeblayk]

@@sarchlalaith8836 an excitable lad but 87% admirable in my books? - SGM SATANA

[@thetman0068]

First Lindybeige and now Gun Jesus!? These crossovers just get better and better!

[@LegatoOfficial]

MCU watch out.

[@fsmoura]

And you can notice Lindybeige is shooting wrapped up in a _tatami_ mat, just in case some one sneaks behind him with a _katana._

[@joebuddy7717]

Have to agree. awesome.

[@lockesnode1477]

tman008 Skallagrim, YES

[@mooneyes2k478]

Lindy and Ian? Lindy, Ian, Skallagrim and Bloke...and...Jingles!

[@paulandsueroberts4121]

Gun Jesus and the Bloke sat on a bed,drinking Scotch......give us some warning next time Jeeezzz.

[@jayfelsberg1931]

I like Scotch and I like ths video, We Enfield owners love the Bloke. I own 10 and will put any of them (well, maybe not the No. 5) against a Mauser any day. That includes my two Ishapores.

[@osmacar5331]

you climax multiple times am guessing?

[@osmacar5331]

@@jayfelsberg1931 ok as someone planning to get a few enfields in the future (need my license and the enfields are my favorite rifle, the no.4 in particular) got any tips? if you wanna flood my nooby ears, to the enfield, i know about trigger, muzzle and all the mandatory disciplines, just rifle info good sir

[@ericvantassell6809]

I had to pause and get myself a scotch when ian started talking about his kilt. you don't have to unsee what you can't remember

[@billmmckelvie5188]

LOL - I like that, he is now going to have to change his channel to 'Gun Jesus' from 'Forgotten Weapons'. That name will surely stick and go viral, if it hasn't already.

[@hanzenfranzen406]

In the words of Clint Smith "You just fired 8 rounds of .30-06 everyone is deaf!"

[@Whitpusmc]

Ironically I used this M1 myth successfully several times in fraternity paintball games. The cheap paintball guns we had required those small co2 canisters which could be a witch to get unthreaded and replaced without jamming something or cross threading so in short no rapid reload was possible. So I would wait in a hole or trench until someone was close then fake a reload by allowing a very little co2 escape and when they rushed me, screw it back in and pop them.

[@hamilcarbara6549]

"Never knowingly worn a Kilt" sweet baby Jesus and all the orphans, how much do you drink to not knowingly wear a Kilt?

[@WalkaCrookedLine]

At 10:38 Ian mentions "an M1 that loads two clips ... I've seen the gun." Ian, you cannot tease us like that! Tell us more about this fabled double clip Garand!

[@copuis]

very enjoyable, I enjoyed this discussion format with gun jesus, there is something great about two learned people comparing notes

[@sakelaine2953]

On a bed, with some scotch and a video camera. ;-o

[@BadlanderOutsider]

You've come a long way, Bloke. From the forum days to drinking Scotch with Gun Jesus himself.

[@rjprescott4742]

Two of my favorite Gun Channels together so much for going to bed early.

[@lwrii1912]

It has been my pleasure to be entertained by correct information and well thought content, without the Hollywood glitz and political undertones. I look forward to more such collaborations with the various gun nerds (no offense), that are willing to share their knowledge with the less well informed of us out there. Well done, gents, an enjoyable hour, plus.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Solid myth busting....... Wait, hold on,........ you mean they COULDN'T hit a 12" target at 300yds... with 30 rounds?...... in a minute?.......

[@yangcheng-jyun8542]

If it's a conscript army,I believe it can be really bad...Most people don't even know or care how to shoot.

[@jellysquiddles3194]

You really have to take a single-action rifle with short clips to know what 30 rounds a minute feels like. Doing 30 rounds a minute with a "standard nato rifle" that's semi-automatic with 30 rounds magazine you are basically cheating.

[@FirstMetalHamster]

I'm gonna take a guess and say alot of conscripts didn't really want to be in frontline infantry combat, so they flubbed their shots a bit. Guys in the kitchen generally lived longer than the infantry.

[@laxityazathoth1423]

Fix chibs!!!!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thanks!

[@Sedan57Chevy]

Am I cheating on Ian if I watch this on your channel first? Either way, you two make a fantastic team.

[@jayfelsberg1931]

The sound is better on this channel.

[@samiam619]

Jay Felsberg And the sound wasn’t that great here. Too much echo. But I loved it none the less.

[@aries_9130]

This is officially the best video on the internet. Loved, loved, LOVED it, guys.

[@bobbobsquarepants888]

"whats the deal with kilts?" "I have a kilt." "... no further questions."

[@domhogan7842]

Bloke on the Range ...desperately hoping to be asked by a drunk bridesmaid- ‘So, is it true...?’

[@fsmoura]

one can only hope

[@alganhar1]

I seem to remember that they were invented in England and spread to Scotland...

[@mooneyes2k478]

"No, everything is in perfect working order."

[@hotsteamypudding]

so so so many of us English have Scottish Ancestry though, I think most English people I know do.

[@bwcmakro]

It's interesting that you're personally acquainted with Lloyd "Lindybeige" who himself has at one point made an entire video on Bren vs MG-42 (which he called "Spandau), and promoted the myth that the Bren was too accurate to be effective as a machine gun. I hope you educated him.

[@MrGarethG]

There's a few things Lloyd needs educating on. Climate change for one.

[@wierdalien1]

@@MrGarethG ehhh, Ish, his thing isnt that it isnt happening, but he pushing non-human caused climate changed

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@wierdalien1 which i might add is supported by a not insignificant number of scientists (although still the minority and even if they are correct there are other reasons than climate change to wanting to curb air pollution)

[@wierdalien1]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 well yeah. But dumping billions (?) Of tonnes of locked up carbon into the atmosphere cannot be good

[@Jrez]

@@wierdalien1 Well I recall a video of him essentially saying global warming doesn't cause sea level rise so it's not as important to worry about it. So, kinda wrong and wrong.

[@SidneyBroadshead]

05:59 The earliest known written reference to the Ping myth _Ordnance Went Up Front_ (1948) - Roy F. Dunlap The fancy leather-bound edition shown is the _Firearms Classics Library_ 1998 reprint by Palladium Press.

[@KB9813]

I have never heard "The Bren was too accurate" argument before. If anything I would take accurate firearm as a good thing, not bad. Oh, the 16 round M1 I wanna see in a video!

[@ryanp3907]

Gaming With KB_TheDireWolf Just a guess but if your machine gun is very accurate you get less of a spraying effect.

[@phaserrifle3]

I'd not heard it before. Although it does explain the origin of the bizzare sequence in the film "the seige of jadotville" where a sniper swaps out thier Lee Enfield variant (with an optical IRC), for a single loaded, iron sighted bren for a long distance shot.

[@mrcaboosevg6089]

I suppose if you use an LMG as it was designed for, it being accurate isn't very useful unless you're that American in the Vietnam war that sniped a guy with a .50bmg machine gun.

[@augustdenger8231]

Lindybeige brought that up in his MG42 vs Bren video and it made no sense

[@ryanp3907]

john martin So basically your comparing it to the FAL

[@ScottCroom]

I can't be alone in my fanboi-gasm.

[@bend1483]

Scott Croom nope. Definitely not.

[@DocCleaner]

You're not.

[@betaich]

Nope

[@kenibnanak5554]

It just needed Cap & Ball to join them to be the ultimate. :)

[@paulgdunsford7469]

Scott Croom mine too just need Lloyd

[@neilwilson5785]

My Dad was in the RAF in the 1950s. He said that the standing order with the Bren was to hold fire, so as not to give away the location of the Bren (it sounded different to an SMLE). When a good target was available, fire short bursts. He also thought that the grouping of a Bren fired this way was a bit too small, which sounds plausible. If fired full auto with the assistant changing magazines, it would work just fine as a squad LMG, with a nice spread.

[@joshmeads]

You guys are great together, very smooth, not an ounce of awkwardness. Would love to see more videos of you two together! 😊👍

[@ALegitimateYoutuber]

I have to say it makes me a smile a bit seeing you like this. Because you are kinda like a kid meeting his hero. And it's pretty great.

[@nirfz]

Interesting thing about the bipods at around 30:00! I fired the austrian Version of the 42 (the MG74) and with its bipod you can lean against it as hard as you want, it will not fold. Only when you pull the bipod legs together. Our instructor checked our position (if we were leaning in hard enough) by stepping onto the top cover of the MG with his whole weight and standing there for a bit.

[@billmmckelvie5188]

Being ex-British military and firing the LMG 41A1 Bren in its 7.62mm NATO configuration. 1. I can confirm no range instructor ever used the phrase 'it is too accurate' when fired in its automatic function. Plus do not dare say that to anyone in the British Military who has ever fired it - as they would turn round have a good laugh, and spout forth choice expletives, telling you were to go along with "Armchair Warrior!" 2. At the time I was quite proud of the ability to fire an accurate round on single shot and more importantly over a long distance, longer than the L1A1 SLR that we had as our standard team weapon. 3. We were told to pull it in to our shoulder and our left hand was to hold tight onto the top of the butt of the LMG as you have shown. 4. One very salient point to remember and please help in totally burying this myth please gents, can you drum into those 'armchair warriors', the range instructor's whole purpose in life is to teach everyone to shoot accurately, not "Oh hang on lads don't go for accuracy" That is how you stop your enemy with 'well aimed shots' even in auto mode. 5. It is simply a great big no! 6. I was glad that we had two good pieces of kit that operated well and now forty-five years on I am delighted that I had the opportunity to fire two of the best weapons we produced or should that be tweaked from the original, especially compared to the controversial SA80 and to have left before the SA80 ever reached us.

[@Roger_Stenning]

I'll also add - Re the bipod on the Bren - I served as a section LMG gunner in the RMP(v) for a year or so until another new guy joined the section and got lumbered with - I mean issued - the weapon, and I got my Stirling SMG back again as my personal weapon; the Light Machine Gun at the time was the 7.62mmN-chambered Bren (the L4A4), and the drill when prone was actually to pull *back* on the weapon whilst firing, to prevent the bipod from folding back down!

[@clasdauskas]

I don't know what the drill was meant to be, but the one time I got to use our Bren the natural tendency was to pull back on it as it tended to want to walk forwards.

[@Roger_Stenning]

That's why the drill was to pull back on it as you were firing, if I recall correctly. I have no idea why the LMG bounced forwards, but I dare say some knowledgeable type on here will let us know :)

[@augustdenger8231]

1,075 likes and 5 dislikes. This is the sort of ratio that you get when two legends collaborate. Keep it up guys.

[@rjprescott4742]

I am personally very happy to hit the 20” gong at 500 yards nine times out of ten with my 1918 BSA MkIII* SMLE. Four MOA is fine with me. My SMLE is my favorite rifle, I own two Springfield 1903s both made in 1942 one a 1903, and the other a 1903A3. Love both of you guys channels.

[@jayfelsberg1931]

I do just as well if not better with my No. 4s that my M1903.

[@johnquinn1050]

When training a soldier to shoot in my day there were 5 stages to shooting for the combat arms and 3 stages for the support arms. Stage one was grouping and zeroing. In the infantry a recruit had to shoot to minimum of 100mm at 100m and they were trained and coached to this standard. All the training staff we taught how to coach. The reason for achieving the 100mm at 100m was ensure a reasonable chance to hit the enemy out to 300m which is considered the maximum effective range for individual shooting. Once the soldier could shoot consistent 100mm groups his rifle was zeroed so they could hit the center of the target. Stage two was on a gallery range with a fixed butt and firing points at 100, 200 & 300 meters/yards. Here the solider starts to put in practice all the skills at arms they have been taught. So thing like sight setting, windage etc, firing from different positions and at different types of target and of course the different types of firing i.e. deliberate, rapid or snap shooting. Soldiers continued to be coached at this stage. Stage three was Annual Personnel Weapons Test (APWT). This was a requirement for all soldiers and was the minimum amount of shooting that a soldier had to do. The allocation for an SA80 APWT was around 150 rounds of 5.56mm Stage four was for combat arms such as the infantry. It was on an Electronic Target Range (ETR) with a fixed firing point with different forms of cover to fire from and electric targets that could appear at 100, 200 or 300 meters. Stage five is where live firing meets tactics. This is the meat & potatoes of infantry training. It bring together all the skills you have been taught in realistic settings. This also bring home that you are part of a team and your firing is directed to a large extent by you team leader. They will direct you by giving target indications (watch my tracer or 4 o'clock from large tree) and type of fire (10 rounds rapid fire or watch and shoot). Most tactical shooting is suppressive firing rather that point shooting at a seen target, because it is very difficult to see an enemy let alone have the time to take a proper aimed shot at a clearly seen target. Good shooting like most things are a combination of proper training and plenty of practice.

[@deltavee2]

Ian and Mike, thank you very much for this most unexpected and very agreeable video! I have been a long time subscriber to both of you. My two favourite gun KZbinrs suddenly out of nowhere are doing a collaboration, in the same room...with scotch. Yessssss.

[@ekim000]

Cool collaboration gentlemen. I started it on Famous Grouse but was shamed by your comments into switching over to Lagavulin. I thank you for that as well as the excellent content!

[@fatbloke2285]

i thoroughly enjoyed that vid. so inspired was i, that i rushed out and bought another bottle of brandy. a very quaffable time indeed!! cheers!!

[@seanjoseph8637]

Keep a hold of Ian's glass, bloke, and don't wash it...it will be a Holy Grail one day! Great vid, two of my favourite KZbinrs having fun, getting shitfaced and educating us.

[@seanjoseph8637]

It will also make all guns transferable!

[@fsmoura]

~ A M E N ~

[@chriscarter5720]

All this talk about the accuracy of the Bren eminded me of a time (said he, pulling up a sandbag) when I (RAF) was range shooting with an Army section. The range wasn't long (about 50 Yds) since we were on the top of a mountain. The Sergeant in charge of the Army guys asked me if I had ever fired a 'Jimpy' (GPMG, which was I would say a Light Machine Gun, but heavier than the Bren and its successor the LMG). Anyway, he then allowed me to shoot said GPMG from the hip with one of his 'boys' braced behind me as a backstop. That was fun! There was no target, it was just for the experience. He then set up a cola can stuck over the end of a post and proceeded to shred the can firing aimed bursts of 2-3 rounds at a time. Every burst hit the can. Now if I had a machine gunner covering me during an attack I would like to think that he (and the weapon) could do that to the bad guys rather than just spraying bullets in a random direction. Principle; there is no such thing as too accurate, You can, as Ian and Mike say, always choose to be less accurate, the converse is not true.

[@erichufstetler8147]

Great to see the menusha and esoteric writings being shown. Light reading with a good single malt.

[@LieutenantTbone]

I feel like they were getting a little toasty toward the end of the video lol. I’ve been waiting for a video like this for a long time !

[@CountArtha]

If an enemy pops up when your gun is empty, that's going to be more memorable than if he pops up when your gun is NOT empty. I'm not surprised that some soldiers perceived a correlation where there wasn't one, because of heightened anxiety of thinking you're the only guy in the fight with an empty rifle: "They're coming for me now. They must have heard the ping!"

[@genxer1]

I don't know what the criteria was for the studies. I wonder how much experience some of the respondents had with some of the weapons. So, if you took say a battalion of infantrymen and asked each of them the same questions, you'd get answers based on their perspectives and experiences. If you asked a machine gunner about M1 ping, he might say it was not a problem because it wasn't for him because he didn't carry one. On the other hand he might say it was because a couple of buddies who did carry M1's told him it was. The newer guys who did carry M1's who hadn't seen much combat might say it was a problem because even though they had never experienced it, some guy who'd been there longer told them it was a problem. I wonder how many of the respondents were veteran infantrymen who had used the M1 extensively, and even then how much of their experience with M1 ping was due solely to their perception or just bad luck. Like you said, your rifle goes ping and a Japanese soldier picks that second to jump out of a hole and charge at you. The infantryman might attribute it to the ping instead of just bad timing when if you asked the Japanese soldier he would likely say he never heard a ping, he was just maneuvering. Or, he was running toward you before the ping, and you didn't see him until after you reloaded. This also discounts the fact that you're going to have a team or squad or company of men with you who are still loaded and firing. If an enemy soldier did hear your rifle go ping...1. They aren't stupid. He's going to know you can reload it in a few seconds Before he can even yell Banzai you're fully reloaded and back in the fight. 2. There a possibly dozens or more of your buddies who aren't empty and will blow him away if he jumps up and start running toward them. With Thompson's, M1 Carbines, BAR's, Garands etc., U.S. WW2 infantry units had a lot of firepower. Running straight at them was a good way to get wiped out. 3. With your ears ringing and all the noise and chaos on a battlefield if they do happen to hear a ping how are they going to know it's you and not the 40 other guys there with you who are empty.

[@travispollett2120]

I never knew about how important the wood was for the accuracy and proper working of a rifle. Makes sense after the explanation and thinking about it. Thanks for the knowledge. My favorite moment was Ian giving a perfect example of how these myths propagate and increase in scope. Him starting with 39; being corrected down to 38 and then saying 40 was amazing. Excellent work and now I have a new channel to watch. I agree that how a weapon is used is often as interesting as the weapon itself; especially when the use is built into the weapon. Seeing how the engineers incorporate the use of the weapon into the design is fascinating to me.

[@AgamemnonTWC]

Forgotten Weapons, BotR, and Lindy? What's next, you folks all going to visit Skallagrim? EDIT: Ah, saw the cameo. Still, the Bloke here seems to be quite the link in a good many chains.

[@AgamemnonTWC]

It was a very illustrative cameo! I have yet to shoot an M1 myself, but I've always imagined it would be a nice reloading aid. I haven't shot many repeaters in general, but I'm absolutely awful about counting rounds, and it's always terribly embarrassing to dry fire one and realize just how much one has been jerking the whole time. Although, it's also useful in that way.

[@sugarnads]

With britishmuzzleloader in there its informative gun channel heaven

[@betaich]

Don't miss out on C&Rsenal. Now imagine Bloke, The Chap, Ian, Karl, Othais, Mae, their gunsmith Mark and British muzzle-loader together. Oh my god.

[@edwardwood6532]

Skallagrim and the Slingshot Channel would be a good combination.

[@G1NZOU]

The "Bren too accurate" myth is especially weird considering the USMC are partly replacing their M249s with the M27, going with the doctrine of "less shots but more accuracy are just as effective as a wide spread of lots of rounds". The British Army have phased out the L110 from service in favour of buying more L129A1s for the same reason. Armed forces seem to have come full circle from the concept of accurate fire for suppression, to fire superiority by number of rounds fired, back to accurate fire.

[@demanischaffer]

The "replacing the M249 by buying M27's" actually feels like a sneaky way to buy new rifles While "replacing" the M249 the Corps is still buying them and issuing them

[@TheMrarthas]

OMG I wasn't ready for this

[@mikepeterson9733]

Yea, three of my favorite KZbinrs in just the first thirteen minutes!: Forgotten Weapons, Bloke on the Range, and Lindybeige!!! I'm so happy right now, may watch this again to clear the tears from my eyes. :)

[@kenttheboomer721]

Even more than the info these two shared, I love seeing these two together making this video. The obvious chemistry and mutual respect is so warming to see. I love how guns bring people together.

[@australianmade2659]

When I tell people I love guns they look at me in that gun nut way. But I love old guns. The history, smell, nostalgia, look and sound. People don’t associate gun appreciation with blokes like these two. If they did, they would support this great passion. BTW my favourite is the 303.

[@farmerbrown84]

My favorite myth is quite modern: You only have to pay $499 (now $449) to buy an AR-15 that will shoot 0.25 MOA "all day long, as long as I do my part".

[@BlokeontheRange]

Based on a one-off three-round group no doubt! :D

[@farmerbrown84]

@@BlokeontheRange Operators select the best 2 round group from ten attempts.

[@cpssee]

Saing "a gun is too accurate" is like saying "my asshole is too clean, better leave some shit there."

[@mattig89ch]

Interesting points. Thanks for the book recommendations!

[@vicvega861]

Bloke, you, Gun Jesus and Lindy are all total bosses!!!! You beautiful limey bastard you. (And Lindy)

[@jayfelsberg1931]

Bloke, please do your best to educate Ian on why the Enfield is a better battlee rifle than the French stuff he adores. Good job on teaching him about Scotch.

[@epone3488]

OHH La de da a Glenrothes - thats the type of friend you really want he turns up with truely excelent whiskey. My hats off to you Bloke ( my regular dram is Glendronach so when we all catch up I'll treat you both to the 15 or the Cask strenght whichever is to hand!

[@skay9443]

Both my father and grandfather served in Vietnam and WWII, respectively, with the Commonwealth forces and both said the same thing about the Bren. They didn't like that it's spread of fire was so confined - not that the weapon was "too accurate". Compared to the pig (M60) or other options, the general feeling was the Bren didn't spread lead in a wide enough pattern. The theatres they operated in were Borneo, Malaya, Papua New Guinea and Tobruk, so it wasn't limited to one type of terrain, but it was predominantly jungle-based operations. I'm not sure if that is where the "rumour" of being too accurate came from there, but you can easily see where there would be a misunderstanding. As riflemen in those conflicts, I know they both had many opportunities to fire battle rifles, SMGs, light and heavy machine guns, so they would have had a reason for suggesting this beyond army folklore.

[@rath6599]

I like how Gun Jesus jumps in whenever you appear flustered, keeping the momentum, and at the same time he lets you as the subject expert do most of the talking. I liked this video a lot

[@jrcrawford4]

The Holy Grail intermission is a nice touch... And anything the French got right is definitely a story for another time.

[@Matthew-Graves]

Holy fuck! This just made my night!

[@simplymadness8849]

When do we get the sidekick spinoff series with Karl and The Chap?

[@thebotrchap]

SimplyMadness 1870 Franco-Prussian 2 gun match with needle rifles and percussion horse pistols 🤘

[@GunFunZS]

I don't think Karl is the sidekick. Karl is primary on Inrange.

[@thelegate8636]

The Chap My God, please let it happen.

[@slowpokebr549]

Indeed, Karl might take umbrage at that appellation.

[@EXO9X8]

Weaponology was notorious for the being source of these comments

[@EXO9X8]

Bloke on the Range It was an entertaining program in my childhood of the 2000s, but we have moved on to more authoritative source like you.

[@user-ks5ff]

Did weaponology have that jewish American who works at Sandhurst?

[@nickmoore385]

Yes, but he’s now a “she”. I shit you not.

[@axios659]

I've been wondering about that... kinda couldn't believe it tbh but it is >current year

[@user-ks5ff]

I was gonna say that, I read some of the soldiers at Sandhurst refer to him as Mrs Doubtfire lol

[@UnHellequined]

Fantastic video. Sometimes these talks which allow focus to wander are just so incredibly interesting and informative and this one is no exception.

[@robertmccutcheon4103]

my grandfather was a marine recon photographer in ww2. But at the battle of Iwo Jima a captain who had an under strengthened platoon pulled him from his plane and made him fight as a riflemen for several weeks until a more senior officer found out that this guy stole his recon photographer and made him give him back. But since he was just a recon photographer his issued weapon was an old 1903 Springfield and I don’t know if he was unlucky because he got an old worn out one or if the gun just sucked from day one but he had nothing but bad things to say about that gun until the day he died.

[@Carbide195]

16:04 As much as I love The Siege of Jadotville, yeah, the sniper requests a Bren and uses it with a single round to make a particularly important shot in one scene.

[@notbadsince97]

I though of that exact scene but forgot what movie it was from. Thank you

[@lenheinz6646]

I really enjoyed this collaberation. I had heard the myth about the Bren before (and the follow-on myth that later Brens were deliberately de-accuratized), but it never made much sense to me. I was happy to see it thoroughly debunked.

[@johnr7279]

I like crossover vids like this. Kind of cool to see two experts from different places get together. Sharing a drink makes it ever better.

[@brianross5417]

Loved the collaboration. An anecdotal acciunt of weapon sounds from the Korean war: Bren guns on single shot sound like Enfields; allowing you to reposition the Brens in between attacks and surprise the attackers (who tried to go where the Brens were not). Source: one of my professors.

[@GreekPreparedness]

Hey that video brings a new meaning to the phrase "Bedtime Stories". What a pleasant surprise to see this video on my feed!

[@georgecate4228]

This is absolutely great! Please more collaborations with you two. Absolutely love it!

[@johnfarscape]

I trained on the Bren, we were taught to shoot only short bursts, 2 or 3 rounds, it was never ment to be a spray and pray kind of suppressive MG, if there was 3 targets in front you would fire burst, aim in 2nd and another burst then a 3rd burst on the 3rd, you wouldnt just drag the stream of shots across an area as you would with a belt fed MG. it is true though that if you were holding it super tight then a 2 or 3 shot burst you would put the rounds in a very tight grouping, the most surprising thing for me was how little recoil it had considering the size if the rounds. . But as you said, you could just not hold it as tight and you could increase the spread if for some reason you would want to do that.

[@Downunder8899]

Next stop Patreon, this is the best ever. I now need a four way collab with Lindybeige & British Muzzleloader also!!

[@agarlicsorbet6482]

For the M1 ping myth to work as "intended", there has to be a very specific conditions that has to be met. Even from the opponent's standpoint. 1. You have to hear the ping, have a prior knowlege that it is from a G.I.'s M1, and differentiate from other battlefield noises. If the axis forces had been instructed on how to counter enemy weaponry, this may or may not be workable. But in the field, in a firefight between squad - companies, I don't see it happening in any way. 2. As the opponent of the M1 users, you have to be 100% certain that if you bolt towards the Americans after hearing the ping, you won't immediately get turned into Swiss cheese by other American friends that has their sights on your pos or general direction. That limits the environment to corridors: indoors, CQB situations, narrow street fights, tunnels like Iwo Jima, where the field of view is severely limited, and only one or two guns on point of a squad can cover the fatal corridor. Of course, you have to be not deaf by the battle in confined spaces you've been fighting, to hear the ping, like you guys said. I can think of maybe night time sneak attack by I-Japanese Army on Marine foxholes or trenches, on maybe isolated incidents, because Japanese were that crazy, but that's about it. This is WW2, so many lunacies happened(?) 3. Unless you are a deranged I-Japanese soldier who might think cowardice is worse than death (and don't want to be a disappointment to your family by surviving the war), you have to be somewhat confident that if you manage to reach the G.I., you can overpower that one M1 and whatever that is hiding behind that US infantryman who just "ran out of ammo": his buddies, who may or may not be armed with worse weapons than M1 garand. You are an axis soldier, so you are subconsciously inclined to think that M1 also takes a good amount of time to reload like the bolt guns your friends use, so in your head, maybe 5-10 metres is a good enough distance to make the dash. Anyways, you have to be armed with at least a fully loaded submachine gun(and not your bayonetted bolt-action rifle) that makes your chance of survival a littlebit better, but still, the G.I.s are going to hear or feel your desperate footsteps approaching. If you are indoors especially. 4. As an extension of point 3, you have to be certain that the G.I. you are trying to get a drop on after hearing the ping is alone, or two(three at best) man strong, and isolated. These are very specific and limited situations and the chance that it actually happened is VERY slim, but I think it is not IMPOSSIBLE impossible. More plausible way to interpret the myth: Maybe the originator of the myth was confused like you said and thought a banzai-charging I-Jpn soldier heard the ping. Maybe the axis soldier didn't charge directly towards the G.I.s and was just seen maneuvering from cover A to cover B while the rifleman was loading his M1. Maybe the myth started from concerned COs and sergeants telling the troops to always cover each other's backs and never let your buddy alone, especially in the Pacific theatre, and that lesson got bent and skewed to become the M1 Ping legend.

[@petere7197]

I could watch a whole series on this (as long as the whisky supply held out). This was excellent programming, with two very knowledgeable presenters who throw up thought-provoking nuggets every 15 seconds or so. And there is obviously a lot of firearms empathy there between Bloke and Jesus. There is not a lot of the above that you will find in the sterile mainstream of mass-media today. Thanks Ian & Bloke.

[@Dyatlov_iF]

The legendary crossover episode

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

As long as they avoid the now obligatory "musical" episode we should be OK!

[@KathrynLiz1]

Great video... :-) I remember the "guy prone behind an LMG" camouflaged target at 300 yards was effectively invisible against a dirt background. How I ever managed to hit it I really don't know..... very much a "guestimated" sight picture.

[@panzerabwerkanone]

Dulap's book full of misconceptions and myths about wartime firearms seems a lot like Belton Cooper's book about the M4 Sherman myths.

[@armouredco6935]

Your videos are awesome, keep up the good content.

[@clintongreen5170]

Great video, nice to see 2 knowledgeable guys talking WW1 and WW2 rifles

[@bend1483]

Oh what I wouldn't give to be sat in a pub with these two! Lol

[@ronhagenson9923]

Love the Monty Python Intermission music! Good info lads, thanks! So many people keep repeating this stuff

[@wonderflounium]

Never fired a true lmg but in my experience with the m249 its surprisingly accurate from the bipod per shot but it still has a good sized cone of fire even with the much softer shooting 5.56 compared to .303 British; it's less of the gun not shooting where you're aiming and more the recoil changing where exactly you are aiming between shots. If you believe the bren myth even after watching this video you really need to go shoot full auto from a bipod at a distance if you can, it's something you don't really get a true understanding of until you do it and it's also a great experience elsewise, so it's a win win scenario.

[@acooper11397]

Nice! It's cool to see two youtubers I've watched for a while collaborate

[@EthosAtheos]

I just made it through the whole video. You both are fanatics, Fantastic video!

[@240pixel]

Its ironic to see Lindy right before adressing that Bren gun was not a laser accured. Anyway it was fun. I thought my 5cm groups in 25m while standing with g36 irons is Nothing to brag about but in wwII era standards thats pretty darn good.

[@stephenwoods4118]

Thank you both, it was very interesting.

[@DeepPastry]

Myths I grew up with, are the magical penetration of the 7.62 vs the 5.56... If you didn't know, it's the other way around when real bullets are used. That extra 1,000 fps (feet per second) really adds to a bullets penetration ability.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Afaik that depends a lot on the material of the target and composition of the bullet. Heavier fast bullets retain momentum better than light hyper fast bullets. Light bullets thus have a much better energy transfer capacity in liquids such as body tissue, and will do more damage as more of the momentum is transfered to the body. Eg: if hunting for pelts, use a 5.56 if hunting for meat, a 7.62 would be better as it leaves more of the meat intact

[@lib556]

Thanks for putting me on to Britishmuzzlloaders. I'd never seen or heard of this channel...despite Rob coming from (and possibly still living) in my town. You felt prompted to say, "what is it with all the Canadians in kilts?" as if to suggest this is somehow odd or something we're not entitled to do. You do realize that Canada has a very strong Scottish history? They essentially explored and built this country (except for the French bits). The Canadian Army, much like the British, still has many Highland and Scottish regiments on the Reserve Force Order of Battle. The last Regular Highland Regiment, The Black Watch Royal Highlanders of Canada, was disbanded in 1969 (the reserve unit is still HQ'd and trains in Montreal). Rob obviously has a connection with the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, an active reserve infantry unit in Vancouver. Likely he served in that fine regiment. These regiments all wear full Highland or Scottish dress on formal parades, mess dinners etc (kilts, sporrans etc). When in dress of the day (typically combat uniform)they wear balmorals (tams) or, in some units, glengarries. All these regiments have pipe bands. The best part? Canada (particularly Vancouver) being very diverse ethnically, means you will see many visible minorities parading proudly in their Highland kit. Asians in kilts! Fine soldiers. Get over it.

[@thegeneral123]

I'd like to know more about if troops during several wars actually made efforts to protect their own hearing? How significant was hearing damage? Did it affect combat effectiveness due to damage or for example, stuffing cotton wool in ears?

[@mootpointjones8488]

thegeneral123 Sorry, can you repeat that? I didn't hear you.

[@stanleynickjedrzejczyk4533]

Dana Herron HAH?

+stan CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

[@jayfelsberg1931]

My ears are not as good as they could be due to a bit of combat and training with small arms and several Talos launches (one as I was working in the FA berthing compartment just beow the Long Beach's Talos launcher).

[@sergarlantyrell7847]

"Too accurate" sounds like the only criticism a BAR fan could come up with.

[@johnparrish9215]

Let me tell you some thing. I am retired Navy SeaBees. I've been to more joint training missions than I care to think of. Trained with over a dozen different militaries, big and small ("Tongo was fun), and yet I love to watch these two guys and learn about the way weapons were used in the old days, after all it all still is relevant in todays world. I only wish someone would build a modern FG-42 for a combined SAW-DMR weapon.

[@ajr5086]

Awesome stuff. Cheers to you Mike and visiting Ian

[@arjay232]

Good to see you dudes together, love both your channels.

[@calumknight9178]

I suspect the m1 ping "issue" probably originated from word of mouth and was passed down in chinese whispers therefore slowly changing as it was passed around, you'll never find the origin now since whoever started it is probably long dead. I suspect it was a very unique niche case where there was a guy on his own seperated from his unit somewhere and used it to trick a single soldier tracking him (however that may have happened, or maybe he threw it to distract someone getting close so he could make a run for it), or maybe he had rejoined his unit being pursued and thought to get clever in luring the pursuers out into the open. Either way the only way throwing an empty garand clip to trick combatants would work is in VERY niche and out of the ordinary situations, and it would only work a few times before word of mouth on the other side got around to counteract it (which might be another origin to the story about using a clip to distract/trick, a GI might have tried using it but was killed anyway having failed to pull it off and the german passed on what to watch out for).

[@F1ghteR41]

54:58 Early Soviet sniper rifles were chosen via some accuracy test and then equipped with scope. Since 1930 or 1932 some of the rifles were produced as sniper ones from scratch - that means, to a much higher standard of quality and all parts with lower tolerances - while others were made with particularilly well-performing barrels chosen during the usual in-house test and assembled into sniper rifles with modified receivers, down-turned charging handles, walnut stocks and scopes. In the early 1942 the latter method became the only one, while walnut stocks were dropped due to the wood shortages and the PU sight was adopted for the Mosin rifle. The drop of quality was very significant (though sniper rifles were now made in huge quantities), 1942-44 production guns were regarded poorly by troops (comparable to all the German reports on Kar.98k/ZF Bloke mentioned), so after the war (in about 1948) they were allegedly refitted. 1:03:41 That, by the way, is a trait shared by many renowned shooters. For example, famous German WW2 sniper Josef Allerberger was a machinegunner originally (and turned to sniping by accident and using a captured Mosin sniper rifle), Soviet snipers Jānis Vilhelms and Ivan Gorelikov were allegedly quite good with revolvers.

[@F1ghteR41]

Thanks for video!

[@johncashwell1024]

So, the amount of b.s. that flows through the ranks, especially during wartime, is staggering. For example, British Night Bomber crews were told that the Germans had developed what was colloquially known as a "scare shell, scarecrow shell or scare crew shell" to make crews believe that their mates in the other bombers were being shot down all around them. It was supposedly developed to mimic the death throws of a bomber as it is going down in the dark of night. The myth became so pervasive that some airmen believed that they actually saw these things and took that belief to the grave, even after being told that there wasn't a shred of evidence to support such a weapon. At first, it might even sound plausible, but after a bit of research and deduction, you quickly see that plausibility vanish. Soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines will invariably get all sorts of ideas, myths and the like, out into circulation as soon as 2 or more are are gathered. And this has never changed; it makes no difference whatsoever whether that soldier, sailor, marine or airman is male or female, as you get two together some type of b.s. will be forthcoming, just like it would on a small scale like within a factory or company.

[@renngretsch]

You can begin to see the effect of the rohypnol on Gun Jesus towards the end of the video.

[@shonny61]

The universally important question here is whether the Axis physicists at CERN gain a tactical advantage when they hear the ping as the LHC expends it's last hydrogen proton.

[@kainhall]

seeing you guys drink (especially gun Jesus) brings so much humanity to you guys just chilling on a bed....drinking and bullshitting......something ive done my self idk..... just good to see ya are both normal dudes i remember back when i got my youtube account.....2007....most videos were just average dudes making average videos glad to see people can still do that

[@janvesely6353]

When you mentioned laser beam... well, now the >light< machine gun gets interesting meaning, great talk though!

[@peterkroger7112]

Great collaboration of two of my favorite channels! Carry on mates!

[@HrGott]

haha, two total gun-nerds meeting on a hotel bed, drinking scoutch and talking about "stainless" pieces of old guns! :D nice one

[@patroit5192]

these two talking bout guns and history I could listen all day! Ian needs tour of the Swiss bunkers if he has not yet been.

[@JiiHooMan]

Never knew i could watch through an hour long video of American and a Brit sitting on a bed in Switzerland and talking. And that i would actually enjoy it.

[@tracybeme1597]

I've heard that a regular beard vs an extended goatee is better to wear BECAUSE with your head tilted to meet the sight; it strains the neck and throws off your aim. But if you grow a pony tail it counter balances it.... (snicker) The best job in the mil is a spud peeler. Reason, everyone is paid the same scale except the peelers' bennie is not getting shot at.

[@johncashwell1024]

@Forgottenweapons & @BoTR at approximately the 28:00 minute mark (discussing service rifle manufacture pre-1950 -ish) I recently watched a fantastic WW2 era film made at the Springfield Armory, the U.S. Arsenal in Springfield, Massachusetts, about the production of the M1903 or M1; I can't remember which, but there were few things that really stood out to me. The 1st item was that after the barrels were rifled they would move to a guy who had a contraption built into a low ceiling at about eye level. It had a couple sturdy, long pegs that were installed into it and the "barrel guy" would look through the barrel to gauge its straightness. If it was not straight enough, then he would place the barrel between those pegs in the low ceiling and move the barrel left or right to leverage it between the pegs and slightly bend the barrel in the direction needed to straighten the bore. It was really fascinating and highly recommend that film. The second item was the way the stocks were made: a completed rifle stock would be placed onto a machine and then several stock blanks would be locked into individual locations on that machine. When it was started, (I think it was a common belt run machine), the machine would trace the profile of the original at the same time that sanders followed that profile and sanded down the other stocks to duplicate the original. I think it was the KZbin channel Periscope Film that has this film. If find it again I will try to get more info on how to find this film, if anyone is interested.

[@BlokeontheRange]

During WW2 the British replaced the highly-skilled barrel straighteners with a 6" plug gauge, cos they found out that as long as the last 6" of the barrel were straight you were good to go and British rifles had zeroable foresights anyway so you could just compensate any issues with that. The copying lathes for stockmaking were used everywhere - the "original" stock was a master made of metal (an actual stock would wear out).

[@johncashwell1024]

@Bloke on the Range I just watched a couple of 1940s/1950s films about Springfield Armory, the Rifle, M1 & Rifle, M1903 and it looks like both used footage from that original film I described. Anyway, the Stock Duplicater is sure enough using a metal "original" and I was wrong, it seems, about the barrel straightener. I may have seen something like I described somewhere else, however, the way it was actually done was that the barrel smith would look though the barrel to determine what was needed, then he would use a device, placed at eye level, more or less, to straighten the barrel. It looks like the smith would place the the barrel into this device and then use what looks like a small ship's wheel to mechanically apply pressure at the desired point along the barrel's l to coax it into a straight barrel. Thank you, for making me double check my memory! This how nasty myths get started, when you say something as fact and you believe it be true because you remember it so clearly...but you are not even close! Thank you BoTR!!

[@BlokeontheRange]

Oh, the barrel straighteners were super common, AFAIK it was only the Brits who went to a plug gauge! IIRC a Kar98k had 6 or 8 barrel straightening operations done on it manually, and on average they didn't shoot that well in any case!

[@Jrhoney]

Terrific video Bloke and Ian. You guys are terrific!