Bolt Action Obsolescence: Mike of BotR and Karl of InRange put this one to rest

[@australianmade2659]

Next he’ll be saying swords are obselete

[@aaronorr5586]

Considering modern intermediate cartridges are the equivalent of a long sword per round that can go through typical mild plate armor...😏

[@shadowfoxcorp]

😮 Swords are obsolete?

[@Picolinni]

Tell that to the SASR... well, knives at least... :-P

[@aaronorr5586]

@@Picolinni Take a knife out of their hands and they still have their typical hand to hand and they would wipe the floor with all the cheetos dusters in the comments.

[@johnegan7622]

Swords?? Bah! I don't feel fully equipped unless I have my lance with me.

[@jukkatalari3896]

An Englisman living in Switzerland, a guy with Norwegian roots from Arizona, having a discussion in Finnish forest... priceless! :D

[@Easy-Eight]

Lets hear it for rail, cars, & air travel.

[@weasle2904]

Its almost like we're all *humans*

[@Ammotive28]

That’s an Irishman away from a joke

[@girthbrooks39]

Two White men conversing in their natural environment.

[@kurtschmidt5005]

Karl is a descendant of Vikings, Karl therefore can sail anywhere around the world

[@casualobserver3145]

I’d watch Karl, Bloke, Chap and Ian discuss stuff like this for hours.

[@adventureswithducky4088]

Don't forget Othias, and Mae

[@casualobserver3145]

Henry Kruid You are spot on! A huge miss on my part. Othias & Mae are great sources of detailed information.

[@BushcraftingBogan]

I’ll also add C&Rsenall to that awesome list.

[@BushcraftingBogan]

lol. I should have read the responses first. :)

[@barbrasosi]

Agreed, the low hum kinda ruined it though

[@justinrobert2770]

*random .303 shot lands next to a group of soldiers* "Oh that's just Enfield Eddie he comes out every few days to shoot at us gets him out of the house and away from the wife."

[@baker90338]

Justin Robert *distant Iraqi hello noises*

[@barrywatts803]

Had to have a giggle at that one! 😂

[@julian-sark]

MASH reference? 5 o'clock Charlie, wasn't it? :)

[@509Gman]

Karl missed a perfect opportunity to become “The Dude” alongside “The Bloke” and “The Chap”.

[@johnn8223]

That's just like, your opinion, man.

[@leighrate]

He has to receive the blessing of Gun Jesus to do so first.

[@CenlaSelfDefenseConcepts]

@@johnn8223 exactly the position of The Dude has long been held

[@sugarnads]

Perfect

[@Wetcorps]

Would be fitting since Ian is Jesus.

[@HughesEnterprises]

Next they’ll be saying that cavalry charges are behind the times...

[@baker90338]

And that volley fire is the past!

[@HughesEnterprises]

Baker Tankersley A whole platoon of men firing at a target they can’t see 2,200 yards away with iron sights is a perfectly reasonable use of small arms!

[@semperfi-1918]

You mean behind the lines... lol

[@Stribog1337]

@@HughesEnterprises it's ok theyre automatics

[@vHindenburg]

O line infantry tactics

[@danieltaylor5231]

Ian gets a nice hotel and a bottle of whiskey and Karl gets a rock in the forest. My guess is Karl said something about tea.

[@quentintin1]

i feel like i'm repeating myself every time i see the bolt gun vs semiauto thing, as i keep bringing up the MAS 36 vs the MAS 40 the MAS 36 is a very good bolt action rifle, if not one of the best. the MAS 40 would have replaced it had the Germans not interfered. both had the same sights (rear mounted aperture rear right and big square front post), fed from a fixed 5 round magazine, fired the 7.5x54 Mle 1929C and used practically the same furniture litterally, the only thing that set them apart was the fact that one was a bolt action, the other a semi auto the french put one against the other in 2 shooting series. the first was 6 2-minutes shooting on a figure representing a kneeling man at 200m, the second was also 6 shootings, but against a figure that would make ten 2-seconds apparitions (still a kneeling man at 200m) the results were: first series: rounds per minute: MAS 36: 11 MAS 40: 14 hit percentage: MAS 36: 74% MAS 40: 96% second series: rounds fired for the 10 apparitions: MAS 36: 54 MAS 40: 72 hit percentage MAS 36: 35% MAS 40: 68% so while on a static target the rate of fire increase is nothing to write home about, the hit percentage goes up by 22% as the rifleman is able to follow his shots immediately and make correction on the fly, versus the bolt gun who makes pretty much a new shot every time. against a target popping up and down, the semi auto doubles the effective fire while laying more lead downrange. that wa the difference between two rifles that were as identical a bolt gun and a semi auto could be, now imagine with modern rifles, sure, you can make a bolt action take as many modern features you want (detachable mags, advanced sights, intermediate calibres,...) but the stock would still drop down (you need space to work the bolt), and you would still have to work the action by hand, leaving you in that 11-30 rpm maximum effective fire while the semi auto will pepper at over 300 rpm without having to reacquire the target between shots with the same mechanical accuracy thing is, a bolt gun is totally obsolescent (if not outright obsolete) on the modern battlefield, if it's the only thing you have (a gun is better than no gun), sure use it, but the best use would be to use it to get your hands on a semi auto gun, kinda like a Liberator pistol in a sense

[@Treblaine]

Am I reading that right that for the 2-second 'pop-up' targets the semi-auto was 2.6x more likely to land a hit even though they only fired 33% more shots overall? I'm not sure how MAS-40 could fire 72 shots in only 10 opportunities as that's an average of over 7 shots per apparition. Was it more than one rifleman shooting at the same target? Oh wait, do you mean "also 6 shootings, but against a figure that would make ten 2-seconds apparitions" So they would have a total of 60 times a target would pop up but every 10 pop-ups the test would be paused giving them plenty of time to reload? That means the MAS-40 is shooting - on average - 1.2 times per pop-up. Either loads of pop-ups are being missed entirely (while reloading) and multiple shots are being attempted per pop-up... or only 1 in 5 pop-ups are they even attempting a rapid follow up shot where the semi-auto would be relevant. They'd have to reload as if you're taking a shot every "pop-up" the 5-round mag will run out.

[@loyp4328]

That are very good point, and it's true that semi-automatic is the very true force-enhancer, giving your standard infantryman the effective firepower of a full fireteam. But that can be very much compensated, especially through collective training, if you can provide twice, or ideally four times the number of warm bodies of the opposition in order to win and sustain the superiority of fire. In a sense, you compensate hardware with software (training, discipline and will).

[@Treblaine]

​@@loyp4328 MAS-40 landed +65% more hits compared to the otherwise identical MAS-36, so that's not quite a fireteam (4 riflemen, which would be +300% more hits). That's obviously better but it's not that much better. You see similar differences in hit rate when comparing identical weapons that have either open-sights compared to having low/no magnification optics. In WW2 the British made popular songs complaining about their armaments, they didn't complain about not having semi automatic rifles like the Americans had and as some German infantry units had, they complained about not having enough BREN guns. That was the focus of industrial capacity, make enough BREN guns, the aim was two per section (i.e. 1 every 4 men) as a priority, machine guns just knock the pants off semi-auto rifles.

[@quentintin1]

@@Treblaine i've been looking around and asking questions and the best response i can give you without looking directly at the test reports is yes, it seems that the total number of shots fired for the second series was 72, making about 1.2 shots per apparition, but as it is we lack the time between apparitions, because that low number of shots could be explained by a rapid succession of apparitions, meaning that the shooter would miss some while reloading, or that the time between apparitions was longer and the shooter was making deliberate shots. from other testing, the maximum practical rate of fire of the MAS 40 was shown to be about 3 times that of the MAS 36, and that a good shot can make 3 hits on a target making short apparitions, but all of that was severely limited by the fixed magazine, which was why they started a program for a mag fed rifle about as soon as the MAS 40 was adopted for production (which would have had either a 10 or 25 round magazine on the same pattern as the FM 24/29).

[@Treblaine]

@@quentintin1 If it was only 1.2 shots per apparition (as in only 1 in 5 shots is a 2nd shot even attempted) then the rifle being semi-auto or not would be pretty irrelevant as 80% of the time the follow up shot is irrelevant. Either there's a lot of noise from a small sample size or loads of apparitions are being missed when reloading and then attempting multiple shots per apparition.

[@1804unclesam]

Is this the start of a new channel: Bloke on the InRange?

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

Bloke In the Range

[@1804unclesam]

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography your pun-fu is strong. I stand corrected.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

At least it's not Bloke In Range?

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

Forgotten Bloke In the Range

[@lubey111]

Forgotten Block In the Ranch45

[@toddoroi4947]

But I'm Australian I need to justify not being able to own an AR-10 to myself.

[@trooperburger123]

I know. But I'd say lever release (Savage A22r and even the Verney Carron) is a decent substitute (yes I know its not as a good as an actual semi auto, but hey its what we got). At least we still have Handguns unlike the UK (Ruger 10/22 charger is also another option).

[@toddoroi4947]

@@trooperburger123, do I look like I got 3000 bucks

[@trooperburger123]

@@toddoroi4947 With the way things are you'd be looking at spending more then $3000 for an AR-10 along with the process to get Cat D.

[@toddoroi4947]

@@trooperburger123 hence "not being able to own an AR-10"

[@trooperburger123]

@@toddoroi4947 Yeah it sucks :(. That's why I got the A22r for the time being. They're pretty cheap. There is cat G. Though shooting those firearms depends on your state

[@cristianespinal9917]

Snipers aren't good at their jobs because they're great shooters. They're good at their jobs because they're the sneakiest great shooters who have also weaponized math.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Long range snipers are riflemen cosplaying as SPGs ;)

[@mauricewalshe8234]

And have a lot of high tech suport gear at the high end

[@oron61]

And the mental strength to look an unsuspecting man in the face and end his life. Snipers are good at their jobs because they can do that again and again and again without snapping. Killing someone in battle is much different from sniping. I hear tales of young men turned into a different person when getting home because that kind of killing screws with the mind.

[@oron61]

You might be right. Such ruthlessness is a bypass around the mental strength. The difference between overcoming ones horror at doing a murder-of-sorts on someones orders vs not having that horror at all. You will either already have that sociopathy or you will have it forced on you. "ten other police officers, and all fire a half dozen shots into the back of a fleeing black child." you say that like it's a routine occurrence.

[@halfassedfart]

@@oron61 the second half did not age well

[@jeffreymcfadden9403]

In Star Trek the original series. episode "bread and circuses." Cpt. Kirk while handling a Madsen M50 said,,,,,,,, "obsolete but effective." Capt. Kirk was always spot on.

[@WJS774]

The irony being that it was a better gun than the ones he was issued with in many ways.

[@samspeed6271]

I think the Mad Minute series on this channel shows effectively the benefits of a semi-auto over bolt action with that M1 Garand mad minute. Much higher rate of fire, much greater volume of bullets put down range, much less effort than any of the bolt actions. Nothing came close to the Garand's mad minute score, not even the Enfield.

[@tacamo21]

You're funny if you think a well thought out video can change the mind of the misinformed.

[@aaronorr5586]

Proper term for them is willfully obstinate. They know they are wrong but either because they can not or do not want to own or use a semiautomatic rifle for precision work they choose to delude themselves.

[@MrLeo7627]

If your by yourself & could have only one system the rest of your life you would want a bolt rifle. And yes my truck is a manual shift . Im speaking as a civilian (not war ), I really have no idea.

[@aaronorr5586]

@Viscous Shear Ongoing contracts? Knights has a recent one for the M110 SASS and H&K is still trying to fulfill the M110 CSASS. This is the Army Sniper program. The current crop of Army M2010 completed manufacturing and fulfillment with their 2558th rifle in 2014. The have a solicitation for bids to overhaul the M2010 but no takers... 🤨

[@aaronorr5586]

@Viscous Shear You are confused. The M2010 is a .300 Win mag rifle. It is a bolt action. It currently has zero active contracts but it does have a floating solicitation from 2018 with no takers. The M110 Semi Automatic *Sniper* System and the M110 Compact Semi Automatic *Sniper* System both have active fulfillment contracts for procurement in the Army. Both shoot M118LR which is the 175 Grain SMK .308 Winchester. Where did you get 5.56 from that? USSOCOM is Purchasing M110K1 uppers in 6.5 Creedmoor to fit to the M110 SASS lowers they have in inventory to step their capabilities out to longer distances. Again, part of a Sniper program, not a DMR program.

[@aaronorr5586]

@Viscous Shear Poor B8 M8 I R8 it 0/8.

[@michaellefort6128]

I've shot longbow, crossbow, flint, percussion, BA, lever and semi and full auto, in and out if the military. I still shot a hole in the ceiling with a misfire not six months ago. Pay attention, people. Complacency will get you killed around guns.

[@RyTrapp0]

Firearms and weight lifting - following modern doctrine is critical to safety! I got back into weight lifting a little while back for the first time since I had "strength training" as a class throughout high school(it's pretty awesome getting credits for lifting weights, when I would've been doing it after school lol) - needless to say, went to relive my glory days of my perfect technique power cleans; and annihilated my back for about a month because of a measly 90lbs(give or take; I THOUGHT I was 'taking it easy'...) on a terribly out of form body LOL I know, not quite the same as an accidental discharge - but the point remains the same none the less!

[@nunyabidniz2868]

As dear old dad said, "It's always loaded, unless you've got the action open with your pinky shoved in the chamber. And even then it's only even odds you can be certain it's not loaded... ALWAYS ASSUME ITS LOADED."

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@nunyabidniz2868 if you got your finger in the breech, it's a half second of inattention to be loaded with half a finger ;)

[@ronrobertson59]

Im a big fan of the Lee Enfield rifles I have 9 of them. Back in the 60's my dad bought me a 22RL Enfield that I still have. In the 70's 303 was $8.00 for 200 rds of surplus ammo where much of it was tracer or incendiary. If I had to go to war with a bolt gun make mine a Lee Enfield.

[@DriveCarToBar]

"Afghans still use Enfields." Only when they can't get their hands on AKs.

[@BlokeontheRange]

Exunctly :) If I had to grab my Chinesium AK that's "wouldn't want to stand there at 300m accurate" or my No.4 that's probably a consistent 2.5 MOA if I do my bit (it's a really good one) off the rack in a SHTF scenario, it's a total no-brainer!

[@mr2mk1g]

Should have contrived a guy in a big foot suit to wander by in the background at a random point.

[@johnegan7622]

That guy from C&Rsenal?

[@IndianaJoe3]

@@johnegan7622 I think it's been documented that Othias is a yeti, not Bigfoot.

[@haroldellis9721]

How to make a great video even better.

[@barrywatts803]

Yeah and turns out to be Hickok 45!😂

[@MiamiVice.]

Missed opportunity

[@tomr2982]

Only instance I can think of where the bolt action isn't obsolete in a general issue military context is the Canadian Artic Rangers, simply because some of the conditions they experience up in the arctic circle have led them to the conclusion that only a bolt gun would be reliable, though the point is, perhaps, moot since their rifles are typically personal defence against the wildlife ;o)

[@villesimonen4481]

When i was in the finnish military as a sniper, we came to the conclusion that the realistic shooting distance is about 1000 meters/yards. Yes, with .338 lapua you can shoot to like 2000+ meters, but with any practical scope, you cannot identify the target at that range. And as a sniper, you just reveal your presence for minimal gain if you dont shoot officers/highly specialized troops. And to about 1000 meters semi-auto ar10s give you much faster follow up shots if need be, usually lighter platform, and same practical accuracy as bolt actions.

[@codebebop]

Ville Simonen I beg to differ. Love my semis but when you need 1/2moa or less, Bolt is King.

[@villesimonen4481]

@@codebebop Yes, i understand your point of view, but what i meant semis are sufficiently accurate to 1000+ meters, which is about the maximum effective range from target recognizing and city/forested area sightline wise. Of course if you want to shoot as small groups as possible bolt guns are king, but i approached the situation from military point of view, where 1/2 moa groups are not necessary.

[@parv888]

Horseshit. 7.62 vs. 8.6 wind drift. No real sniper can say this nonsense. First shot is for the money. All the rest is just a failure. No target will stay on the place after first bullet has landed.

[@villesimonen4481]

@@parv888 First, why such negative attitude? Second we used .338 sako trg.s(TKIV2000), as our main guns, but we preferred semis whenever possible/mission allowed us to use them for their lighter weight and yet still suffient accuracy. Third, there are .338 ar15.s in the marker such as DRD tactical kivaari-line. And my fourth point is that if you miss your first shot, you can still make up for it by fast follow up shot with semis, which is much more difficult with bolt actions. As the truth is that the target does not stay still. And while .338 is much better cartridge for long range shooting, ill give you that but that doesnt me that 1000 meters is not doable with .308/7.62x54r with good scope and good spotter. If there is a reply, i hope it is in more sensible form than typical youtube comments "fuck you" format.

[@parv888]

@@villesimonen4481 Sniper job is not shoot many targets in rapid fire. Can You formulate sniper role in the battlefield? Shooting everybody in sight at random order? If you need more than one shot per target, your instructors are bad.

[@randymagnum143]

"Gamer gun" 2019= most any $750 AR

[@elijahaitaok8624]

ARs have the best bang for buck deals

[@elijahaitaok8624]

@Danny lifts hey if it still slings lead it should be fine.

[@musicmasters314]

Even heavy barreled bushmasters can be had for less than a grand and sometimes less than 900 bucks.

[@randymagnum143]

@Danny lifts an sks is a $59 tool to scare away deer.

[@randymagnum143]

@Copperhead Sutton why, when i think of Appalachian deer hunters with sks, do i think, "year round"?

[@iamquite_the_predicament7433]

Just remember that a Mosin makes an excellent melee weapon. It is a pike with the bayonet affixed, and if the bolt gets stuck, you have a very effective war hammer.

[@hvymtal8566]

A highly talented shooter can put 30 through a Lee in 60 seconds Any dope can double that with any modern combat rifle assuming they don't bork the reload

[@killerpeaches7]

or have a reliable (largely an oxymoron) drum, etc.

[@nunyabidniz2868]

Check out the history of the Garand: during testing the U.S. Army had tests of relative accuracy, volume of fire, etc. between the Garand & the M1903. There was no question the advantage incurred by the self-loader [and that was with the early gas-trap model, with all its faults!]

[@nicholaspatton5590]

Shooter: *Borks Reload* Me: *OOOOF!*

[@dereklangseth9485]

how many shots are required in one minute to be effective? who's going to bring the ammo when u run out?

[@nunyabidniz2868]

@@dereklangseth9485 It's not so much "how many to be effective" as "Here, this rifle gives you a speed bonus so you can take more time to aim & get more/better hits while still pacing the slower alternative."

[@Fawnarix]

Finnish Brutality even sounds like the name of a Black Metal band.

[@MumrikDK]

Just not a Finnish one.

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

I would say that a bolt-action still has sniper and precision applications, but not so much because of accuracy, but simply size and weight concerns. Take a 50 BMG for example. Compare a semi-automatic Barrett m107 with something like a DesertTech HDI. The first weighs more than twice as much as the second, and it's much more cumbersome to carry around. Certainly, having that semi-auto function has some Advantage, but with a 50 BMG it's not like you're taking split-second follow-on shots, at least not if you're shooting at any kind of appreciable range. I think the same would even be said for something like a 338 Lapua. In that sense, having a bolt action with 5 or 10 round magazines will usually let you put as much let down range as quickly as you practically can and still hit the target. I'm sure that as technology improved this may change of some point in the future, but we're not quite there yet. That said, for smaller calibers - to my mind certainly anything like 7.62 NATO or smaller, inclusive - a semi-auto is just the way to go. I know the USMC loves their M40, but it really is slipping into obsolescence if not already there. There isn't really anything that an SR25 or an LMT mws can't do just as well if not better, with the right Barrel

[@Verbose_Mode]

.50 BMG, and those associated rifles, are _not_ sniper or even precision weapons. They are anti-material, you can get longer ranges and higher precision out of bespoke sniper ammunition, .338 Lapua Magnum being the flagship. 1,500m is the sane range that snipers would limit themselves to. Contemporary bolt-action precision rifles have a advantage over a contemporary just-as-accurate semiauto: _price._ Bolt action is easier to make precise for less, but like Mike and Karl say, the british are using a 16in barrel LMT rifle, it doesn't even need a long barrel or fancy locking mechanisms, it just has to be _well made_ and you can get more accuracy out of the weapon than the shooter can use.

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

@@Verbose_Mode I'm sorry, but you could not be more incorrect or misinformed. Yes, _some_ 50 BMG rifles were designed for an anti-material purpose, such as the Barrett. However _others_ are absolutely, no question _also_ designed to be precision weapons engineer to take out specific point targets from their conception - things like the newer Desert Tech HTI .50, with the McMillan Tac-50 being perhaps the most famous example. And there's a reason why that held the longest confirmed sniper kill record, in the hands of some Canadian and Afghanistan, for many years. In fact I haven't looked recently and it might still hold it. However, even if it was true that there are no .50 BMG sniper rifles - which I have just show not to be the case - my point would still stand. There are absolutely plenty of precision rifles in big calibers like .338 Lapua, .416 Barrett, and .475 CheyTac that benefit from those dimensional savings in field use. In addition, price is not really a consideration here, because we are talking about user interface and technical engineering factors. Price is not a technical factor, it is an element of acquisitions, military management, and often, ultimately, politics. It is simply not appropriate to go into that side of things in this comparison, because it's nearly endless. You can get to a point where the specific country that a firearm is produced in may influence whether a military wants to purchase an adopted or not, and that is clearly not a data point for or against obsolescence, and clearly that has nothing to do with what Karl and Bloke are talking about here. So I will just repeat what I already said in my first comment: For certain large calibers and weapons of a certain mass, when considering the actual military application of said weapons, size and weight considerations may often be a legitimate reason to go with a bolt gun over a semi-auto, even assuming that they are both able to achieve the same level of _practical accuracy._ (And for my purposes here, I will define "practical accuracy" as "being able to hit your usually encountered target at or within your usually expected distances". If we are truly talking about _absolute accuracy,_ then yes even with smaller calibers a bolt gun will _probably_ be able to achieve more precision than an equivalent semi-auto. For example, if we're talking about a 12lb Benchrest Comp .308 rifle, for shooting matches where the difference between .20 and .22 MOA is a game changer, having a manually operated bolt mechanism like that, is going to allow you to be just that much more exacting with the tolerances and clearances in a way that for all practical purposes you cannot be with a semi-auto that you want to be able to run without malfunctioning every other round.)

[@clintonholenstein9348]

BMG is acronym for Browning Machine Gun. Intended original use was for killing tanks based on WWI armor. Anti personnel capabilities were secondary consideration. WWII armor pushed 50 BMG to focus on light armor or soft vehicles and personnel. True, the infamous Carlos Hathcock smoked a mother fucker with an M2 in Nam, which shows the capability of the projectile to use in precision formatting. But all platforms firing .50 BMG that aren't the M2 were designed to harness the potential of the projectile in its original use. Barrett's rifle is meant for precision anti material first, anti personnel second. Something like the .338 Lapua is 100% intended for long distance anti personnel application, because both projectile and the weapon system were designed in concert of each other. Ultimately it doesn't matter because artillery will fix your problem anyway.

[@matchesburn]

"I would say that a bolt-action still has sniper and precision applications, but not so much because of accuracy" When it comes to precision long range shooting where the first shot is the only one that matters and if you don't hit with it you weren't properly doing your job (e.g. snipers), then yes, bolt-actions are still king because accuracy and consistency are so required. There's a reason when you get into the actual high precision long range world almost no one - military or civilian - is sporting semi-autos. Because, despite Karl/Ian's pleas to the contrary, bolt-actions are simply more accurate and more consistent. We're talking about ranges where you having a clean bore or your ammunition being in the sun can easily throw off your point of impact by inches or feet. If anyone thinks semis are going to be just as accurate as bolt-actions in that application... they are fooling only themselves.

[@matchesburn]

@Christian Morgan 1:23 *_STOP. LYING. FOR. THEM._* **YOU** are the one that needs to listen and actually apply some nuance and logic and not being intellectually dishonest. "The distances someone like a sniper would engage targets at, is anywhere from 150-800 meters. And that's pushing it." Demonstrably false. Things like .338LM exist and were made to specifically push well over that range. You are, again, lying. "Modern semi auto rifles(Like the M110, HK G28, MK20, ect) " ...Are DMRs and battle rifles, not sniper rifles. Intellectually dishonest to a fault. "Engagements past 800 meters are rare." Snipers are rare. "You should really listen to what they are saying." If Karl told you to jump off a cliff, you'd probably ask him which one. Stop being a sycophant and think for yourself, or at all, for once. "For a sniper, 500+ meters is long range." Lies. "Take Chris Kyle for example. He is the outlier of snipers." If you were thinking for yourself, you'd also realize that using an outlier as a common example is a bad idea. Also, Chris Kyle is... "controversial" to say the least. This is from Kyle's own memoir: _Our ROEs [Rules of Engagement] when the [Iraq War] kicked off were pretty simple: If you see anyone from about sixteen to sixty-five and they’re male, shoot ’em. Kill every male you see. That wasn’t the official language, but that was the idea._ "We're talking real world, practical shooting." You and Karl both don't even comprehend those words you use and repeat them like a mantra. Buzzwords to avoid being tied down to nuance. It's cancerous. And I despise it.

[@alaskajohn907]

One thing that was missed, larger calibers are better suited to bolt action. Less reciprocating mass, which means watching your vapor trail and keeping eyes in target is easier. Also less bulky, and lighter.

[@armyofshea7941]

There is some truth to that, but also some examples of autos that have great merit. Like the Barret.50 cal (and other larger calibers). Heavier, but softer shooting, and quicker follow up shots. Although, that comes at a literal price- they ain’t cheap.

[@alaskajohn907]

@@armyofshea7941 true, but the barret self loading rifles are also significantly heavier, and less accurate

[@joe2d]

@@alaskajohn907 That may be true, but large calibers are mainly meant for anti-material role not man-sized targets so volume of fire (especially moving target) is worth the trade-off for slightly worse accuracy.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

For the new anti tank/VBIED rifles 12.7 an 14.5mm, a bolt action works but the target is a up armoured car.

[@urbanmyths95]

@@alaskajohn907 but the barret 50cal isn't a sniper rifles per say it's an anti-material rifle

[@Ben_not_10]

I think the greatest point made by Karl and bloke was on training. Bolt actions are obsolete, and battle rifles are obsolescent. BUT.... if that is all you have access too or can legally own, train to be the best you can be with that rifle.

[@thetrippedup9322]

Battle Rifles aren't really obsolescent, for instance the FN SCAR-H is an extremely popular rifle, and it's a Battle Rifle, the same with the G3. I do understand where you're coming from, especially in the context of the modern battlefield where movement is key, but I think the battle rifle has a while longer than you think.

[@Ben_not_10]

Gamma Raygun though I can agree that there is still use for a battle rifle (as in a rifle chambered in a full power cartridge) I think the concept of issuing a battle rifle to anyone other than specialists and marksmen is an obsolescent idea. Intermediate caliber rifles like the ar15 and Ak47/74 are much cheaper and easier to train a large army on than even modern battle rifles.

[@matchesburn]

"Bolt actions are obsolete" They aren't. Words mean things. Look at the definition of obsolete. "Battle rifles are obsolescent." ...No. What is this nonsense?

[@thetrippedup9322]

@@matchesburn In terms of warfare, Bolt Actions obsolete.

[@thetrippedup9322]

@@Ben_not_10 I get that. The Assault Rifle will probably always remain the mainstay of a modern army (Until we finally get out phased plasma rifles) I can appreciate how someone could see that outfitting a large number of men with Battle Rifles could be inefficient, but I still think that it's a toss up between the two, and falls on the doctrine or, quite simply, the personal choice of an officer or nation. I think modern NATO troops, more specifically the Baltic states, Eastern Europeans and Germany, have the right idea by using the G3, especially in a war which, ideally for NATO, would stagnate and eventually end in peace, since the hitting harder would definitely be more important than mobility. On the other hand, the American and British armies are fighting mobile enemies in harsh environments, where the light weight of an Assault Rifle and the comparative recoil would be far more beneficial. I think the SCAR-H is the way to go, as (Or atleast, as I heard it) they've been able to reduce the weight of the rifle, while firing full power cartridges.

[@drudgenemo7030]

I like the BoTR where lindybeige, an Anglophile of the first order, tries out bolt guns, including the absolutely perfect SMLE, vs a M1 as completely novice shooter. Goes so well for the bolt guns.

[@cymond]

Thanks, I'll go watch that one, I'm sure it will be interesting

[@simonkenton4040]

I love flintlock shooting, but you wont hear me argue they are practical for combat today, sadly.

[@ml6049]

Having been part of sniper section when I was in the army the bolt action rifle still has its place specifically in sniper section

[@alexjordan6371]

But but but... Gun Jesus says otherwise!

[@Aliyah_666]

Yes and no...it can still have a place but I'd prefer not taking my eyes off target or finger off the trigger. With a semi you could fire 3 to 5 rounds in a fraction of the time a bolt gun could and still be gone after people went looking where the shots came from.

[@ml6049]

@@Aliyah_666 yeah except when you need a larger cartridge, 300 Win during my time, now 338 and some other stuff

[@danieljennerman7549]

These cross-overs are skewing my grasp on reality.

[@nunyabidniz2868]

@ 14:35 -- (out to 1500m) Karl asks "Why are (semis) not the standard sniper rifle?" I'll tell you why: beancounters! It's easier (cheaper) to build a bolt-gun w/ the requisite performance, and once you get out that far, the time of flight is long enough that you've got time to run the bolt while your observer calls the correction (if needed.) Just a theory, and semi-autos *will* eventually fill this niche, it's just taking a bit longer than expected.

[@bavarianpotato]

It's all about fulfilling the requirements at a low cost. A sniper rifle needs to fire reliably and accurately at long distances. A bolt-action can do that very well. A semi-auto will do those things about as well, but gives you the advantag of quick follow up shots. But that's not really all that important. It's a more efficient use of funds to buy a cheaper bolt action than a semi auto and redirect those savings to an area where they'll make a bigger difference.

[@Alexwaltman850]

I will respectively disagree with that. Some US snipers are deployed with a Knight's Armament M110 with a $25,000USD price tag for the full kit and some (but not many) are deployed with M82/M107 Barrett's which at my last check was up around $18,000USD for the military kit and then the users have an (for all intensive purposes) limitless stash of ammo to practice with and be sure that they are the best. "Bean counters" are not why bolt actions are still employed on the fields of battle in specific roles. I think the environmental factor was not taken into account here. Unless the military is doing something magical with direct impingement (DI) rifles that the public doesn't know, there is a reliability concern for the SNIPER role and semi-auto rifles. I have jammed semi auto DI rifles from debris but I don't know if I have ever jammed a bolt action from debris. When your mission is to deliver a projectile with as little error as possible I think the K.I.S.S. ideology is deployed and less moving parts and simple mechaniams win out. There's probably only a 1:1000 chance the semi auto will jam but there is practically no chance of the bolt jamming. If I need to make a follow up shot, I want to KNOW I can make it rather than assume my gun will function properly so I can make it. Murphy's Law runs rampant in these scenarios and anything I can do to take that out of the equation is worth it for the sniper role. However, this is just my opinion on it and I'm only offering it as a different view of this discussion. I don't have any personal military experience and I am only a gun enthusiast with a fair number of bolt action and semi auto rifles. I don't think bolt actions are obsolete (yet) because I do know it's a lot more difficult to get a semi-auto rifle to shoot very accurate (0.25MOA) than it is to get a bolt action to do the same. It's only a matter of time until semi-auto's get there but until then I think the bolt action still has its place in the sniper/precision marksman role.

[@Terminalsanity]

Well that and there are very few advantages semiautomatics usually bring to sniping you typically don't want to take multiple follow up shots from the same position because you want to keep the enemy uncertain of your location lest they send a mortar or artillery round your way. So unless you're sniping without fear of the consequences of your position compromised semi-automatic function is often essentially superfluous.

[@fnkdtnk]

Alex Waltman There is a reason the various military branches started dusting off old M14's, and threw scopes on them. A tuned M14 can hit any target within 7.62x51's effective range. The DI AR-10 style guns are even more accurate than those. Point being, by the time you reach out far enough for the difference between a 3/4-1/2 MOA gas-gun (easy to do with AR-10 pattern guns) and a .25 MOA bolt-gun matters, the 7.62 isn't going to do much when it hits anyways. .50 bmg might be a little different, as that round hits hard way on out there, but as stated in this video, shots taken at those kinds of distances are rare. I understand your point on reliability, but there comes a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, I think most precision semi auto rifles are to that point reliability wise. Semi's have less recoil, and don't require a bolt to be manually run, so you can get back on a missed or second target much faster. And with a suppressor, the enemy isn't going to figure out where you are shooting from, just that they are being shot at when the bullet flies by. Especially if there is other shooting going on, which is highly common. One major advantage for carrying a semi auto precision rifle is less about quick follow up shots while hidden, and more about what happens when moving from spot to spot. Don't know about you, but if I was moving a few blocks over, and ran into some AK wielding enemy's, I would much rather have a 20 rnd box mag M110 over a 5-10 round bolt gun. You would probably be better off pulling out your Barretta M9 / Sig M17 if you had a bolt gun, and an AK vs a handgun is not a good idea. There is probably some value left in a .50 bmg/ultra long range magnum sniper rifle being a bolt gun, when you are going after a specific individual, and plan to take one shot and boogie, but most of your precision shooting is happening with 1000 yrds, in a target rich environment, which is well within the capability of a semi auto 7.62.

[@Alexwaltman850]

@@fnkdtnk I'm not going to really argue anything you posted as I don't think you're wrong but there are a few things I would note (and I'll probably find out I was misinformed). I thought the military was dusting off the M14 and converting them to the Mk 14 EBR because of the diminished reliability troops were seeing on the DI platform like the M110 and Mk12. Again, I'm not stating this as fact but as something I am recalling from memory so I may be wrong. Second I agree with you ending statement about wanting a auto loading rifle over a bolt of you came in contact with insurgent but I think this situation is more likely to be encountered by a squads designated marks and not really by a sniper. I think if a sniper is getting into a close combat fire fight then he's done something seriously wrong but then again that's also why the spotter carries a M4/M16. I don't really have a pony in this race so its not worth arguing about. I think bolts would still have a place on the battle field but however you look at it, both have pros and cons and either would serve a sniper or designated marksman well.

[@seano4822]

Heh, a basic ar with a red dot is a gamer gun in the uk.

[@joeyn985]

It's tragic isn't it

[@anonanon2614]

It's just that way because the Bloke mostly shoots Sturmgewehrs in Switzerland

[@geezerp1982]

more likely be screamed at by the other uk shooters "why do you need an ar-15? this is not america / you are not the police " etc etc fudd bullshit

[@lleppala]

The SVT gas nut disassembling itself usually comes from improper reassembly, especially in the amount of tightness applied onto the gas cylinder screw thingy. It was a reported issue with the time according to this 1941 Finnish army report (From Jaeger Platoon) Structure of the rifle stock is very weak. Almost all of these rifles handed over by the troops that captured them had broken rifle stocks. Receiver of the rifle is weak, it bends or even breaks easily. If the cartridge chamber is dirty or corroded even in minor extent, the weapon will fail to extract used cartridge case. (Writer's note - rather harsh text, failure to remove used cartridge case is the typical problem for these rifles, but the harsh tone suggests that ammunition may have been of incorrect type or use of incorrect gas-regulator setting). Gas piston rod may slip from the piston preventing the bolt closing. Sod and other remains of burned gunpowder will make the gas piston very dirty and (without proper maintenance) it will rust, making its removal impossible. The gas-regulator adjustment may move on its own. (Writer's note: Especially if not tightened correctly). If attachment of the gas-regulator is too tight, it may distort the barrel. Parts between individual rifles are not (necessarily) interchangeable. When very worn out, the rifle may go full-auto when fired. (Writer's note: Not exactly rare issue with other small arms either). How reliably the rifle works depends how tight the shooter is holding it. If hold loosely the rifle tends to work less reliably. (Writer's note: Which seem to apply most semiautomatic weapons at least in certain degree).

[@JoannaJedrzejczyksForehead]

Hogwash. Don’t you know that a single keyboard warrior can take on an entire armored division with their AWESOME Mosin Nagant?

[@MoistChungus]

Mosins are a blast to shoot but people circle jerk so much over them the price inflation is ridiculous

[@Sedan57Chevy]

They way I see it, combat rifles are a bit like cups. If you want a nice hot cup of tea (or coffee), do you really want to use a small, flimsy paper cup (bolt action rifle)? Or how about a classic porcelain cup or mug (full power semi auto)? Or do you want the big old insulated thermos that can hold a bunch of what you're having, while being the easiest to handle (intermediate semi auto). That being said, it was great to see you two together finally! Two of my favorite gun nerds together at last. You both are incredible when it comes to running these old rifles, and I hope Karl gives us some more old gun content soon (I can always count on you, Bloke!)

[@bushlifenz9378]

Afghans dont use Lee Enfield's, they use IEDs

[@Kawawaymog]

They also use AKs if they can

[@509Gman]

They use PKMs

[@atadbitnefarious1387]

My platoon alone picked up 2 SMLEs and a No. 4 off of weapons caches in afghanistan this past year. They still use them. Sonetimes they even ghetto weld thermal/nv optics to them to shoot guys in the dark, which is fairly common.

[@Kawawaymog]

@@atadbitnefarious1387 that's really neat. I'd love to see some pictures of the bubba'd up enfields

[@CenlaSelfDefenseConcepts]

@@atadbitnefarious1387 its again a case of they use them because they have them if you gave them a Remington 770 scope package from Wal-Mart they would think it a gift from the gods

[@Lowlandlord]

So, as a Canadian gotta say, -40 temperatures. Which is where the Lee-Enfield was still seeing service (and has been replaced by a gun Bloke has a video on, the Tika C19). Not many soldiers have to deal with charging polar bears, as a rule of thumb. Even the Rangers that do, well it is more of "what if" scenario than something that happens on a regular basis. The rifle sees more service in a hunting capacity as Canadian Rangers hunt with their service rifles.

[@vogonjelc]

Guys, if you need to use it as a club bolt action rifles rule. You cant tell me that ar 15 is better club than kar98.....

[@FearlessLeader2001]

It'll probably last more than one swing while the wood would splinter

[@Kawawaymog]

You don't need to use your rifle as a club with the AR since you've already ventilated your target

[@Mr2greys]

There is also a Sgt in Fallujah that proved an M4 makes an adequate club, I believe he also got to use his knife

[@MegaAppleshit]

Thats what your bayonet is for!

[@PonzooonTheGreat]

That hole in the stock of a k98 for the sling right at the weak point probably makes it the worst bolt action club lol

[@ixiairisborne1695]

Regarding "but what about snipers?!!?" I contend that the concept of a sniper as a high-fieldcraft soldier making long range shots with a rifle is, itself, obsolescent. From what I've heard, the modern sniper's real value is in using fieldcraft to get close enough to a potential target to then use a radio to provide useful intel and possibly call in [artillery strikes / airstrikes / cruise missile targeting info]. If anything, the "sniper rifle" is becoming as frequently useful to a sniper as a bayonet is to an infantryman. And, even that modern revision to the role of the sniper is on the verge of obsolescence. We're not that far off from an unmanned stealth aircraft cruising ten miles above an area that needs to be reconnoitered and equipped with a camera that can beam back a live video showing an entire square mile with resolution capable of reading a book in the hands of someone within that square mile, assuming we're not there already.

[@amschind]

In some environments, but the lessons from our current conflicts are clouded by abysmal AA capabilities among the OPFOR and the universal desert setting (i.e. a horrible place to be on the ground with enemy planes overhead). The lessons from Vietnam showed ongoing value for the scout sniper's rifle AND radio, and while technology has absolutely progressed since then, the massive differences in terrain and NVA AA capability also play a role in the differing conclusions. For instance, look at Karl on Tactical Rifleman talking about his exhaustive, taxpayer-sponsored knowledge of where EXACTLY to shoot a MIG-25 with a Barrett to put it out of service. Interestingly, he also speaks at length in the same video about his preference for semi-auto guns while sniping (the Mk 25 and the Barrett).

[@springbloom5940]

Snipers and designated marksmen are not the same thing and neither are their rifles.

[@Aliyah_666]

Not always but sometimes they have rifles they can use on both roles. The m110 is a good sniper AND dmr.

[@EeekiE]

Video games are all about fun and good game mechanics. Anything bolt action hit by far the hardest, as payback for how slow they shoot. This is just a good game mechanic, and makes it a high risk high reward option in multiplayer. Because of that they have the impression of being the ‘pro’ choice. Real life doesn’t care about balancing things. In real life I’d want an AR every time. Specifically a WWSD variant.

[@fsmoura]

6:18 _a two-piece black metal band_ Well, that's already 100% more people than most black metal bands \m/

[@luisnunes2010]

Darkthrone is arguably the best black metal band and it's just two guys...

[@blackprince4074]

I play the kettle drum in our town marching band,does that count.

[@fsmoura]

@@blackprince4074 do you do it in a way that embodies the trve blackened essence of pure evil?

[@ShinobiHOG]

I do precision shooting, I've actually taken classes and there are companies out there that are teaching legit fieldcraft from retire army and marine snipers who are their instructors. Bolt guns have their place in sniping still but it takes a high degree of training to make sure its not a suicide mission. We exist though and people like me laugh when the anti gunners say that the AR15 is too dangerous. If they only knew what we could do if ever so inclined...... #2A

[@megaconda07]

Karl: bOlT acTiOnS aRE oBsOLEte EvEN sNiPErs. Everyone: . . . . . . Soooo you're telling me the modern militaries are using full autos for a reason?

[@DriveCarToBar]

I think the overestimation of sniper engagement distance bit was dead on. For a lot of years, the US Army and USMC had no trouble issuing sniper rifles in 7.62 NATO. It wasn't until much more recently did the commonality of body armor and longer distances in Afghanistan push services to finally upgrade to magnum rounds. And even then, we're not talking about giant super magnums but things like the 300 Win Mag and the 300 Norma Mag. The upgrade from 7.62 NATO to .300 Win Mag increased engagement distances from 1000m to 1200m and the US Army moving to the Norma mag gave them another 300m out to 1500m. But beyond that, you're really just fooling around and should have brought out the big .50BMG Barrett. And my take is that with a sniper, a bolt action and a semi-auto are more comparable. The bolt action means you don't automatically have a cartridge coming out although a gas cutoff can accomplish the same thing. Your individual control of the rifle is better (but better enough to matter?) You have a bit better aftermarket support for long range shooting because bolt actions were the standard for so long although that has changed somewhat in recent years. AR platforms are ridiculously good target rifles when built as such. For a DMR, you'd have to be crazy to issue a bolt rifle.

[@ourvaluesarewhoweareinadem4093]

Next you'll tell me that "pulling" a nickel out of someone's ear doesn't relate to practical banking and accounting.

[@chrisr251]

You always get idiots who see these kinds of videos and come up with comments along the lines of "my (insert military bolt action here) will still kill an enemy at (insert ridiculous range here). That means it isn't obsoleted." They only look at the fact that it is firearm, and think that means it is just as good on a shot for shot basis.

[@norwegianwiking]

so you're telling me my plan of taking my M/96 Swedish Mauser and fight if the Russians or Swedes invade Norway is not a good idea?

[@nirfz]

Basically they tell you that your plan is good if you are exceptional at hiding and camouflaging and you haven't got anything more modern.

[@norwegianwiking]

@@nirfz got to invest all my skillpoints into Marksmanship and Sneak

[@nunyabidniz2868]

@@norwegianwiking Get a good optic. Biggest force multiplier in modern combat gunnery is the advent of cheap, rugged & reliable optics.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@norwegianwiking sorry to tell you, my brother on the other side of the border, but if you tried, you will die wishing your government didn't pull out of the SPFH77B Archer deal as you got spotted in the thermal sights by some pimpled Swedish 19yo conscript in a CV90 fire controller vehicle who lazed your position and sent a data link text message requesting a set of red hot 155mm airburst love in your general location... because fuck that grid square in particular...

[@myparceltape1169]

@@SonsOfLorgar So, the Norwegian Viking's first target is a pimple. Plook.

[@cassiapalladium2921]

One time I went out shooting with a friend. I brought a VZ98/22 which is basically a Czech G98, and he brought a Zastava AK pistol. I'm one of the fastest mauser operators I know, but when we decided to shoot 30 aimed shots side by side, he managed to fire all 30 rounds, clear a jam, and hit with more of his shots in half the time it took me to just burn through 30 rounds.

[@halfeatentacostacos222]

7:51 that l1a1 was throwing brass into the stratosphere 😂

[@erickolb8581]

I personally love the idea behind bolt-actions. They use very few moving parts and are rather simple, I appreciate them for those reasons. Practical reasons for a bolt-gun for me are cost, low maintenance, and cartridge size. I do own an AR15 and I love it for different reasons. I'm a hunter, not a soldier, so requirements differ.

[@antongrahn1499]

As a hunter myself, i choose self-loading. Your points are all valid but i like the reduced recoil and faster potential follow-up shots.

[@erickolb8581]

@@antongrahn1499 I do love how I cycle the action when I get that shot that lands precisely where I aimed it. It feels like perfection. It reminds me so much of any of those old guys in war movies where they pull the trigger after meticulously calculating their targets. A few days ago I went to the range and fired some subsonics in my AR. It didn't cycle the action but it was super quiet. Since I was wearing hearing protection it sounded like it came out of a military movie, like zero dark thirty or shooter. I love the cool factors behind all this stuff lol

[@antongrahn1499]

@@erickolb8581 from a civilian perspective, cool factor is def important i agree. My last slot in the weapon safe is currently occupied by a m/96 swedish mauser. Its just a cool thing.

[@finn9289]

Yeah as much as I love bringing bolt guns to multigun matches every now and then the only thing I'm competing for when I do is to not be on the bottom of the score list.

[@SeanFication]

Would you call me an aged man-o-war, doctor? The Lee-Enfield is not old; no one would call her old. She has a bluff bow, lovely lines. She's a fine rifle: weatherly, stiff and fast... very fast, if she's well handled. No, she's not old; she's in her prime.

[@keithklassen5320]

My, she was yarr.

[@donaldengelmann6906]

When a measure becomes a target it ceases to be a good measure. That's the problem with the mad minute in my opinion.

[@EEDIR-DK]

To add on the extreme long range debate. There is a whole another issue than the travel height of the bullet. It is the fact that the bullet will usually go through a transonic phase (slowing down), which often will make a lot of bullet calibers tumble in the air (this is because of the change in drag).

[@xthetenth]

The gamer gun discussion is an interesting thing, because a lot of gamer stuff is really compelling for practical uses as long as it's tougher. It's hard not to go with something that you can deliver accurate fire with, manipulate quickly, and take a good position and brace the gun for long range fire without shifting your point of impact if you have the option. I recently shot a match where there were targets up to 1 km, and with an AR-10 in 6.5 creedmoor that a manufacturer was showing off that had a half moa accuracy guarantee, and as long as I had the right dope, it was easy. Gas guns are very capable. And when you have the option of very capable guns that you don't need to manipulate between shots, why not?

[@jenkinsonian]

xthetenth yep, the ability for squaddies to break something as simple as a rock is legendary. This was the reason why the SUSAT sight was a massive lump of aluminium

[@flouvstouvan]

Not entirely obsolete for the military sniper role. Just because our engagment ranges ARE typically below 1000 meters doesn't mean we don't train and engage at longer ranges. Magnum rounds like the 300WINMAG and 338 LM are far easier to chamber in a bolt gun. My M110 gets used a lot more than my M2010, but I'm glad I have the option of the M2010.

[@Stellar001100]

I hear fudds across the country shedding a tear.

[@aaronorr5586]

Try not to conflate Fudd with Luddite. The Luddites are the ones shedding tears of frustration at being outmatched by quality Military issued SASS. Fudds are the ones that qualify an anti-firearm opinion with "I support the Second Amendment, but...(insert statement about not needing such and such for hunting)."

[@stephenschwake524]

Deading a deer.

[@gortbot7748]

What if your first name was Vick?

[@happyhaunter_5546]

I really enjoyed watching you two together.

[@vogonford]

Having read a lot of the documents on the adoption of the Garand rifle, one of the biggest points in its favor over the Springfield was that using a bolt action rifle was how less fatiguing a semiautomatic was to shoot. It's a surprisingly tiring exercise to use a bolt if done repeatedly and as quickly as possible.

[@BlokeontheRange]

People underestimate it, hence Karl's surprise when I noted that I'm often panting at the end of a mad minute

[@tadferd4340]

Well I can see the Garande being fatiguing just from how heavy of a weapon it is.

[@michaellefort6128]

My '03 Springfield is smooth as glass. I can tuck it in and shoot all five shots in one second. Yeah, I'm used to it, but the point is, polish your bolt and use some grease, and your BA is only as limiting as your mag capacity. Less likely to be confiscated by politicians, who should be afraid of the public.

[@geoechidna]

I'm convinced bolt-actions have heavily contributed to my carpal tunnel. Working a bolt-action quickly (especially a cock-on-open) for extended periods of time is not just tiring but legitimately painful.

[@BarkyLondon]

Historical reenactment really closed the case on this one for me. Desperately working the bolt of a K98k while someone "suppresses" you with their Garand is pretty definitive proof that semi-autos are preferable.

[@MetalheadMitch762]

I'm a German reenactor, in battles there isn't a huge advantage for the Garand since it's usually over 50 yards. Everyone is trying to make slow accurate shots with rifles because the Machine Guns are where the firepower is at. Cover ,tactics, and machine guns usually supersedes the rifle choice.

[@fsmoura]

6:11 brvtal! _Bloke Metal Band_ \m/

[@sebastienschubert2991]

fsmoura the darkthrone of the gun world

[@Thoroughly_Wet]

You guys covered exactly what my qualm is with this topic. To become proficient with what you can aquire.

[@john-paulsilke893]

Bolt guns much like revolvers have greater availability of high power loadings. Other then that automatics are typically better in every way except for rifles at insane ranges. (Also there has been a renewed interest in automatic rifle loadings for high powered rounds so very shortly this argument will only be for revolvers which will probably remain king in this respect alone because of lack of interest in super powerful autoloaders and their expense).

[@bludmakesgrassgrow]

Good points, but people generally die easy. Not much use for large calibers, with the exception of hunting big game.

[@john-paulsilke893]

bludmakesgrassgrow or strangely super difficult to kill. One shot stops with .22lr from a pistol is somewhere near 65% and that number goes up to well over 80% with a single follow up hit. Still....... best to avoid the whole situation entirely.

[@alexjordan6371]

Accuracy, overall size/weight = Bolt gun wins

[@christiandalessandro5376]

I completely agree, semi auto is much better in almost every way than bolt actions. However, there are exceptions. Here in Canada, we have the Canadian Rangers using bolt actions still. With the extreme cold, they're just more reliable and when youre facing down a polar bear you definitely don't want to have your rifle malfunction due to cold. But this is pretty much the exception, in almost every other case a semi auto is the way to go.

[@killerpeaches7]

Longest sniper shot on record: McMillan Tac-50 bolt action. Second longest shot: Barrett M82A1 semi auto. Mind you there was an 800 yd difference , but that is still the most extreme of the extreme. (basically 3900 yds vs 3100. Simple fact no one in this comment section could ever make either shot... or any of the other top 10s, so eh) And still several of those top 10s are from a semi auto.

[@FinalLugiaGuardian]

McMillan tac 50 has the 2nd longest record. The longest shot record (with a confirmed hit) belongs to a Britt using a .338 Lapua bolt action.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

@@FinalLugiaGuardian Those were old records

[@StarfireEAF]

The Danish had a H&K G3 (M/75) semi-auto/auto rifle in a sniper (M/66) configuration. The main differences where a heavier barrel AND the ability to cock in a quite/slow way. The rifles was adopted in 1966 and phased around 1995.

[@rotwang2000]

It's a circular argument. "The master with the BA will beat the guy with the AR" sure and then the master with a trapdoor springfield will own the guy with the BA, and the master with a carefully loaded Withworth will beat the guy with the springfield, and the master crossbowman will beat the sharpshooter with the Withworth, and the master longbowman will beat the crossbowman, and the master with an atlatl and javelin will beat the longbowman, therefore if you have an AR you have less than zero chance against a caveman with a stone spear.

[@robtex99]

Never under estimate the incompetence of "any idiot."

[@JohnDoe-jf5mi]

Bloke looked very uncomfortable during his rant.

[@Zak18777]

Because they are full of shit lol

[@bobhotchkiss2438]

I can think of 3 unique cases where bolt actions are not obsolete. 1) The M26 MASS straight pull shotgun which is used for door breaching, and non lethal munitions. 2) The very rare instance where a fully suppressed subcalibre weapon is still the ideal tool to get rid of security lighting while making as little noise as possible. & 3) Bolt action Anti material rifles, are generally much lighter and more compact than their semi auto brethren. All are niche cases where a bolt action system provides additional mission capability with the least amount of additional kit weight and volume. As battle rifles? Bolt actions have been obsolete for more than 60 years.

[@bilsib53]

I hear you say at 15:00 "you've still got to let the spring go" ... when I was in the UK in May, I was told that spring assisted chambering will be banned. ... Is this true?

[@BlokeontheRange]

No. It's gas operated ejection that they have banned.

[@bilsib53]

@@BlokeontheRange Surely that was yonks ago when semi auto rifles (gas & recoil) were banned. This spring ban was new on the gossip lines in May.

[@BlokeontheRange]

No. The rifles concerned eject automatically and are then released with a thumb lever ("lever release") or with a press on the trigger ("Mars"). Automatic ejection was not banned in 1988, only semiautomatic operation. Straight-pull AR15's where you pull back the cocking handle and let it go under spring pressure are unaffected: www.thetruthaboutguns.com/uk-bans-lever-release-action-and-mars-non-semi-auto-rifles/

[@bilsib53]

@@BlokeontheRange Thanks for the link, I was totally oblivious of the LRA and MARS systems. I'm just an old coincé dans la boue Lee Enfield guy. :-))

[@jic1]

@@BlokeontheRange Am I right in thinking that the number of crimes committed with Lever Release/Mars rifles was essentially zero? At least, I don't recall hearing about any.

[@pseudopetrus]

Nothing beats a lever rifle and good background music!

[@byutube4360]

Lol what? Ever shoot that thing prone?

[@michaelguerin56]

What next? Bring back the Spitfires, Mustangs, Tempests, Maachis, Yak 9s, ‘George’s”, etc. Life moves on. The lever-action repeater was the go to cavalry and close-in defensive weapon for part of the 19th century but ... after the Turkish defence of Plevna, etc. it had had its day!

[@libertyhog1428]

"Well mustang's shot down more enemy fighters than the F-35. Therefore it's just as good!!! Same with that utterly shitty Soviet Biplane that the "Night Witches" used to bomb NAZIs, it's almost as good as an F-117!! And if you disagree you just can't dogfight or fly!" 😉

[@edmundscycles1]

There are reasons to use small piston or jet engines aircraft for CAS missions . They do make a difficult target to hit with small arms fire when low and can have a better loiter time than larger aircraft . Add to that lower cost of purchase then for small countries they make sense . For example an A-1 skyraider.

[@michaelguerin56]

edmundscycles1 i agree BUT ... close air support is another ‘kettle of fish’ entirely from fighter interception and escort, etc. I specifically excluded the Typhoon, Thunderbolt and Skyraider from my reply.

[@edmundscycles1]

@@michaelguerin56 big props for saying typhoon . Cracking attack platform that . Yes as interceptors piston is pointless. But unlike bolt action rifles they definitely have their place in modern milatery. Even USAF are starting a light CAS aircraft programme that includes a refit of OV-10 bronco .

[@michaelguerin56]

edmundscycles1 i saw something about the Bronco. If you put in a slightly more powerful engine, to enhance manoeuvrability, such a light aircraft could make sense. Funniest thing about the Typhoon though, is that they intercepted and killed FW190s and it probably took at least three FW190 ground attack aircraft to do the same amount of damage as aTyphoon.

[@fireball676]

I will say there’s some arguments to be made for extending range for smaller cartridges. Mag length loads are highly restrictive in AR10’s.. having the ability to load to throat length in a bolt gun gives you higher velocities with less pressure trade off, and also enables you to find a bullets true happy place in terms of seating depth. This means precision shots with smaller rounds can be made with effective ranges anywhere between 200-500 yards greater than a semi auto.. also dependent on bullet weight being loaded. This is assuming you can keep a bullet super sonic for longer by getting more powder behind it. I should also mention that bolt guns handle compressed loads much better than Semi’s. Now In a military application.. hands down it goes to semi’s.. but outside of that in the competitive world, bolts do have their place.

[@badpossum440]

I doubt that more than 1 in 10 people watching this video can even see someone at 4,ooo yards.

[@mannys9130]

I can't. Not even embarrassed to admit that I can't see a human figure at even 400 yards with naked eyes. I don't think I have really terrible eyes, but I do wear glasses with a slight prescription. 🤷 I need a scope to go past 200 yards. I have absolutely no idea how IV8888 and Bloke go out 400-600 yards with iron sights. Maybe I'm just crap.

[@cardiffpicker1]

@@mannys9130 it's easy to shoot 600m with iron sights, hitting what you are shooting at is a bit harder though.

[@nunyabidniz2868]

That's what 81mm mortars are for...

[@blackprince4074]

Only if they are wearing bright yellow/orange FLURO clothing!

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@nunyabidniz2868 nah, 120mm mortars is the way to go. Or, 84mm recoil compensated rifle.

[@jesseterrell9354]

Thank god ive been preaching this for ever. The bolt gun is fun and cool but it’s days are almost over for modern warfare.

[@samuelheidelberg1234]

Youre doing a lot of work with your right hand... There is a lot of concentration .... You gotta get a stripper (clip) in there .. Get up ... And at the end youre panting. -bloke

[@redenginner]

Bolt actions in a straight up firefight will lose every time. However in specialized roles and asymmetric warfare they still have a place.

[@ABCantonese]

I'm in California. Semi-autos are most definitely obselete here!🤣

[@byutube4360]

Garand?

[@ABCantonese]

@@byutube4360 Just a joke. I have an SKS.

[@robertmccutcheon4103]

My buddy was a sniper with the army rangers. He only needed to use a long range bolt rifle on two occasions. He would always carry his sr 25 and his spotter would carry the bolt gun.

[@kingsrook9866]

So basically, unless you are a Canadian long-range sniper, semi-auto is the way to go?

[@jonprince3237]

Yes, if you're a country equipping your armed forces for a modern battlefield, but it's a stupid discussion as every modern army realised that decades ago. But all the "range experience" of civilian shooters means nothing when you consider how little effective fire is actually produced by the individual infantry soldier in modern conflict, most rounds fired still miss, that's just the way it is.

[@JohnDoe-nf7up]

@@jonprince3237 I believe stats for the us were something like 250,000 rounds per enemy killed or something in that range.

[@jonprince3237]

@@JohnDoe-nf7up it can vary massively from one conflict to another, but even today I don't think it's really appreciated by many who haven't had that personal experience, how different military style target shooting actually is to real conflict and what factors are actually of key significance.

[@JohnDoe-nf7up]

@@jonprince3237 they also don't understand that keeping a group pinned down to get around to flank them can often be as useful as carefully picking them off. They've also never spent days in the field with little to no rest. When you've never actually done it heavy recoiling, slow firing bolt actions can look usable.

[@CenlaSelfDefenseConcepts]

Most typical sniping (niche world record shots excluded) takes place inside 500 yards with multiple targets the Russians nailed this down when they adopted the SVD a handy accurate enough semi auto with good optics will beat a bolt gun every time

[@MattCellaneous]

Kudos Bloke, your honesty about something that you obviously have such a passion for is admirable. And maybe coming from you it will have a little more weight and go a little further to finally putting this discussion bed.

[@MattCellaneous]

@Viscous Shear Your probably right. Also, I've been thinking more about Blokes point of the noise of reciprocating bolts in a covert situation. A non reciprocating bolt that can be silently hand manipulated is a real advantage, and probably won't be displaced anytime soon. If a bolt action rifle is still Superior even slightly, at extreme range, and it's more ideal for certain covert actions, it's not actually obsolete. Those are two modern and necessary battlefield requirements that are common and universal to all militaries. So not really obsolete, but a specialized category tool.

[@MattCellaneous]

@Viscous Shear I think you're mistaken there sir, I'm pretty sure both of these men served in their respective military's for a number of years, and have since been pretty deeply embedded in there respective shooting communities. I do not doubt either one's expertise.

[@MattCellaneous]

@Viscous Shear I guess you're right. I heard Karl talking about shooting at camp Perry and I made an assumption. Maybe that's why Blokes points about the limited military application were more apt. But my poor assumptions aren't Karl's fault and it doesn't change my assessment of their competence. So much of the stuff is nuance and opinion.

[@VadarVadar]

But the real Question is, is the shovle obsolescence as a close combat weapon?

[@mannys9130]

Trench shovel ftw. 😎

[@icearcher2936]

Glock with bayonet and drum mag

[@509Gman]

Death Korps of Krieg intensifies

[@Zack_Wester]

I would say no... because melee is never completely of the table. it just not something you expect to happen everyday in a modern war but going we will not train our men for melee is just plain silly. now do we fit our men whit swords or just have them train to use there entrancement tools /woodcutting axe as improvised melee weapons and design said tools to also function adequate for said melee roles. I would be hard pressed to find one nations army who manual for at least one of there axe/shovle/tool do not have a chapter on how to use this Item in melee still in print and doctrine.

[@hvymtal8566]

On the sniper thing, I think there is still merit to bolt actions, primarily thanks to two factors 1. The lack of an automatically cycling action disrupts the shooter less, especially when working with high-power ammunition like 300WM, 300NM, and larger 2. The ability to slowly cycle the bolt and keep the brass controlled can be a significant aid to stealth, both when shooting and when it's time to pack up (leave no trace) Furthermore, Snipers are primarily reconnaissance troops and are... snipers second. There's a reason the USMC calls them Scout-Snipers _in that order_

[@nilescoyote4829]

Each tool has a purpose, use it to it's strength.

[@matthewwolff3729]

The only possible military use of a bolt gun would be as a sniper rifle chambered between a 300 win mag and 338 lapua. Some people just have to be contradictory though.

[@shadowfoxcorp]

There's alot of "overestimation" of absolutely everything! There's hardly a realistic viewpoint on anything in the firearm "comunity", I say in quotes.

[@jordanwalsh1691]

I thought this was a really interesting video when it was originally posted, but it wasn't until now, rewatching it, that I realized there was a useful, easy to interpret data source for the sniper side of things. Looking at the Wikipedia list of the 20 longest sniper kills ever, number 1 is 3540 metres, and it's with a bolt action, but once you get down to just the 20th longest shot *ever* you're already down to "just" 1250 metres. Not to mention longest shots ever numbers 2, 6, 7, 9, 13, 15, 16, and 17 were made with semiautomatics. The list isn't exhaustive, but that seems like a useful reference. So basically, if you need to make a shot in a combat setting at 3450 metres, then the single empirical data point we have says that a bolt action McMillan TAC-50 in the hands of a JTF-2 soldier is the only method of achieving that which we know of at this time. If you need to make a shot at 2815 metres or less, then we have empirical data to say that those shots *are* practically achievable with a semi-auto.

[@BlokeontheRange]

That's really interesting, thanks!

[@alexjordan6371]

Hahaha which semi auto EXACTLY is making precise shots at 2814m?

[@jordanwalsh1691]

@@alexjordan6371 The claim is made regarding a Barrett M82A1 used by an Australian soldier. The Wikipedia page is titled "Longest recorded sniper kills" if you want to check the sources used. Just to be clear, I did not extensively research any of the individual shots, so I don't know whether it was one of multiple shots, a single perfect shot, or any of that fine detail. I'm just saying the end result (impact on target at X metres) can be done in a combat environment. I choose to believe that multiple disparate sources reflecting similar performance is probably reasonably trustworthy, but if you doubt the veracity of the sources, that would be something to take up with the authors thereof.

[@alexjordan6371]

@@jordanwalsh1691 the last paragraph of your op discredited you completely 😂

[@jordanwalsh1691]

@@alexjordan6371 Okey doke. Like I said, I could have misinterpreted the information, and I never claimed to be an expert on these things. That said, the source on the Wikipedia page for the 2815m shot with the M82A1 is from a book by Russell Linwood and Glenn Wahler. If you think it's not true, take it up with them. A little research shows me that there has been some disputing of that particular claim. Not definitively disproven, but certainly contested. Even if 2815 is wrong, I feel the point that semiautomatics are practical at very long range is still validated by the other semiauto shots on that list. I also feel it might be important to clarify that "practically achievable" is not the same as "hitting a man-sized target on every shot". Maybe they fired 2 or 5 or 10 shots to hit the target. As long as they were successful in a practical, rather than theoretical setting, that still means the objective was practically achievable. I appreciate your skepticism, but if you want to carry on this discussion any further, you'll have to start telling me why you think I'm wrong, instead of just throwing statements at me. If you do find any useful information though, I would be happy to take a look. After all, we're all here to learn.

[@gator7082]

Why not have both? That's how I address the situation.

[@samnottheotherone4363]

Because as much as I love bolt actions, they are less effective on the battlefield.

[@roadhouse6999]

That's like saying why not have both a car and a horse-drawn carriage. One simply does what the other does significantly better, and also does a lot of other things.

[@gator7082]

@@samnottheotherone4363 So because in your fantasy battlefield you are stacking bodies so you can't own a bolt action? Own and train with both. It's fun.My gun cabinet has room for many types of tools.

[@gator7082]

@@roadhouse6999 This is America. You can own and train with more than one weapon. If you are not capable of that, that's your problem.

[@roadhouse6999]

@@gator7082 I meant for use on the battlefield, not civilian ownership. Sorry for the confusion. Yeah, plenty of reason for a civilian to own a bolt rifle.

[@starstrike81]

For many shooting sports enthusiasts, a day at the range behind an old military surplus rifle brings more enjoyment than a day at the range behind a modern AR-type rifle. Everything is not about practicality. Horseback riding isn't practical but people still do it.

[@ringowunderlich2241]

Well, Air Force and Navy still have use for bolt action guns. I'm guessing, that the A10 and the ships close range air defense system would not be as effective using just an automatic or even semi automatic gun. M134 Minigun and all types of Vulcan and GAU guns (in general all derivatives of the original Gatling design) are bolt action guns at their heart, with the bolt actuated mechanically and (today) driven by an electric motor or by a pneumatic system. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHrPqHuKaa6XiMU Fun fact: The Gatling gun would have been in fact the first bolt action gun.

[@cowishere8222]

The fact it has a bolt does not make it bolt action. The traditional description of a bolt action firearm is a manually cycled rifle. The listed weapons do not match that description.

[@ringowunderlich2241]

This description is not precise enough. Although I was wrong, since the Needle Rifle of Dreyse was technically the first bolt action gun, the Gatling Gun is considered to be a "bolt action gun with mechanical function". So this is an extended description of a bolt action to categorize this type of gun. And no, they are not machine guns, because the Gatling and all its successors do not use the energy of the shot fired to operate the system, which defines an automatic, respectively a machine gun.

[@cowishere8222]

@@ringowunderlich2241 I feel your comparison stating bolt actions aren't obsolete because of miniguns is almost like saying the Model T isnt obsolete becasue of the Ford Explorer. The contents of this video was specifically manually operated bolt action rifles. Those are obsolete. Electrically powered miniguns are are whole different beast (even if they may technically fit under the umbrella of bolt operated).

[@simonpetrikov3992]

@@cowishere8222 but those bolts are operated by electrical energy so it’s why it’s treated as a machine gun legally while hand cranked ones aren’t

[@covkiller4554]

I agree. From a military application barring some very niche exceptions a bolt action is obsolete. I will however put forward, not from a military perspective, that if an individual's choice were a bolt action rifle or nothing for whatever reason than a bolt action would be preferable to nothing. However, at least here in the US, as an individual there are a plethora of better options for whatever your needs are.

[@brendancarlson1678]

Bolt action is like stick shift. Not the easiest way, but most fun way.

[@PeterNissen878112]

Great combo guys. Hope to see more of these sorts of vids!

[@humansvd3269]

Yes, they are obsolete for military use. Yes, you will be at a disadvantage in a real fight. But they are still deadly. If that's all you have and can get, then use it until something better is obtained. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

[@williambefort5327]

In the Delta there were plenty of VC with nothing better than Moisin-Nagant

[@williambefort5327]

As I was saying, in the Delta we ran across a lot of VC carrying nothing better than old Russian bolt-action carbines. They made up for their lower firepower with guts. We killed more of them than they did of us, but they were surprisingly effective, and last time I checked, they won the war.

[@otetechie]

MK12 and MK110 are fantastic sniper rifles. You see bolt guns used in very specific roles, but there is always someone with you that has a machine gun.

[@ericferguson9989]

Along comes the Liberal Party of Canada to make the choice for us.

[@nate_thealbatross]

Watching Lindybeige crush an expert's bolt-action "mad minute" score on his FIRST try with a semi-automatic M-1 Garand showed me everything I need to know. For militaries and individuals, a semi-auto turns ordinary people with no training into the equal of a bolt-gun expert. A soldier with a bolt-action could still win, but the odds are very bad and all of the bolt-action training means less other training.

[@BlokeontheRange]

Wut? He fired 24 with the M1. I fired, on the same day, 26 with the No.4 with a few issues. I've since shot 29 with an SMLE. So I'm not sure how his performance "crushed" mine ;)

[@nate_thealbatross]

@@BlokeontheRange Not you of course, I think the world record is 39. But wasn't the military marksman designation for 15?

[@nate_thealbatross]

@@BlokeontheRange I stand corrected. 24 beginner vs. 26 or 29 for an expert is still a huge advantage for a military. And isn't your M1 Garand score 43 or more?

[@BlokeontheRange]

The confirmed British Military record was 36. There's an allegation of 38, but nobody has found any concrete evidence that the alleged gentleman ever existed. And no, I did 39 with the M1.