Bowline Knot for Climbing

[@Zolodar]

Really well made video! I just learned from my uncle, who is a certified climbing trainer here in Germany, that the Figure 8 follow-through is no longer used in climbing here, outside of competitions. The bowline variant he taught me was the re-threaded bowline that you've also mentioned to be quite popular in Europe (start at around 10:15). Of course I asked him, what's better about it, compared to a Figure 8 follow-through, and the advantages he named were: 1.) Always easy to untie, even after being loaded heavily from falls 2.) Less wear on the tie-in points of the harness, since it's double stranded at that part 3.) As soon as you finished tying the single bowline it's theoretically secure already. Every step you retrace the knot afterwards adds to the security of the knot, but is not directly "lethal" if you would happen to forget it. Whereas the figure 8 follow-through is completely useless when the first figure 8 is tied and only becomes actually secure when it's properly and completely finished. The re-threaded bowline is also really easy to inspect, since it's almost the same "rules" as for the Figure 8 follow-through: All strands need to be parallel and double stranded except for the "tongue" as you call it in your video. I personally found the re-threaded bowline to be extremely easy to tie properly and nice-looking, whereas it took me quite a long while on the Figure 8 follow-through until I had no more overlapping strands and such in the knot, even though it was structurally fine.

[@ryantilley9063]

Ya all of those are great reasons for using the bowline, and in the end it all comes down to having some sort of system to tying the knot and inspecting it. That’s interesting that the Germans have moved to that specific bowline though, I’m happy to know that.

[@Zolodar]

I mean obviously there's still a lot of climbers that have been climbing for years and even decades - most of them will still use the traditional figure 8 follow-through to tie in. But when it comes to teaching new climbers, the bowline seems to be the new way. We'll see if it continues to spread quickly or "knot" 🙂

[@drstrangelove85]

@@ryantilley9063 German here: By the recommendations of the German alpine club, the figure 8 is thought in beginner toprope classes as it is easier to learn and inspect. When moving on to lead and doing a class, you learn the double (retraced) bowline as the part of standard course - a finishing knot is not recommended actually as the retracing is the backup. Afterwards, most man default to it as it's just better do undo.

[@Ajaxx827]

The bowline is the ONLY knot we use in search and rescue. We use a single bowline with ZERO tie off. We do make sure the tail is appropriate AND we use a second rope with a bowline as backup. Our primary has NEVER failed. I have actually switched to this knot for climbing as it is sooooooooo much easier to untie. If you are an intelligent and knowledgeable climber then you will be able to tie this knot correctly as well as teach your climbing partners to inspect it. i dont expect them to use it but they know I do and they know how to inspect it now. Knowledge is power. This knot ROCKS and i will continue to use it climbing and our MRA certified search and Rescue team will also continue to use it for Every vertical rescue we perform.

[@DavidRichfield]

The bowline follow through is in fact the bowline on a bight, and it's excellent for climbing. Extremely reliable, easy to check, and even easier to untie than the single bowline. Another advantage over the figure eight is that, once untied from the harness, you're done: it doesn't leave a knot in the rope.

[@pootklopp]

Very informative video. I think it could be useful to note, when you tie your double fisherman backup at 4:00 and then again later on the double bowline. You always want to eliminate the gap between the fisherman and bowline that is seen at 4:10. If you tie and dress the knot so you have no gap it is far safer and gets rid of the problems you address. Keep up the great content.

[@Gravity9k]

One of the best videos about bowline knots for climbing I have found. Thanks for sharing :)

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

The knot at 11:00 is called a bowline on a bight but is tied differently using a follow through method. The last knot that you called a bowline on a bight is a double stranded bowline and is not typically referenced.

[@jst6757]

In Germany the bowline on a bight is the only recommended bowline. In german it is called double bowline.

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

@@jst6757 That is neat. It makes sense that the bowline on a bight is the only recommended bowline knot for tying in. It is much more secure than the others featured. The one thing that I cant quite understand is why would you use these over a figure 8 follow through? As mentioned, the bowline has some obvious deficiencies except for the bowline on a bight...which takes up more room through the hard points on your harness. A figure 8 follow through, when tied correctly, is almost impossible to untie by accident, is very strong, and doesn't take up a ton of rope of room through the hard points on a harness. Seems like poor optimization. Im open minded about it, I love bowlines for many other applications...I just dont get it for this one.

[@jst6757]

@@arnoldkotlyarevsky383 I don't feel that it matters the bowline on a bight takes up more room. It can be a bit tight when used through the bottom and top loop, but when it is used through the main loop it doesn't matter. Most people here tie in through the main loop anyways. But with either way it is possible. Also I think that it is easier to tie the bowline on a bight directly at the harness, which makes it more compact overall. The figure 8 is taught first, because it is simple and easy to check. A lot of climbers use the bowline on a bight later on at harder sport routes just because it is easier to untie after big falls. This is the only reason why a bowline is used. In mountaineering the figure 8 is commonly used (because of its advantages that you named). I also know nobody that would use a bowline on a bight when it is not possible to do a partner check. So I wouldn't say the bowline on a bight is used over a figure 8, it is only used in sport climbing, because it is easier to untie. The bowline on a bight has also a big safety advantage compared to other bowlines, when it begins to untie by accident (or not tied completely) you have always a bowline left.

[@slacker697]

i have heard it called a rethreaded bowline.

[@vbregier]

@@arnoldkotlyarevsky383 Main reason to use a bowline is that figure 8 can be a reel pain to untie when it has been put under tension. I have seen people struggling for more that 1 minute to untie their knot after a big fall. Bowline is just as safe if tied correctly, as long as your partner knows how to check it. Main advantage of figure 8 is that it is really easy easy to check, which makes it the preferred knot for beginners.

[@nanaandbump.]

Great vid! I like how you quickly offered so many variations and pros/cons of each as they pertain to climbing. Thanks

[@Ajaxx827]

Great video on bowlines. i have seen so many crap videos and explanations and even improperly knot tying and then claiming that reason for the bowline not to be used. Great job again and i will refer this video to a couple of my knot nerd friends.

[@shps90060505]

Many thanks for the video! I only knew how to use double figure eight for climbing and wanted to learn bowlines for a long time. This video explains every detail perfectly!

[@mortenhagemann5330]

Awesome video. I ude the “european single bowline double-back through the harness”. Always been super Easy, and for me and my climbing partners really safe. Never ever came loose. Even with big multi pitch days for 8-10 hours. And always super quick and easy to clean after climbing. Highly recommended. And thanks again for a great video. 🎉😊

[@OffBelay_]

I just call it the bowline follow thru... Great knot!

[@fredgarvin316]

Great video! It seems everyone I climb with uses a different bowline to tie in and treading it in different directions. When I question it trey get slightly defensive. This is probably why the world cups only allow fig. 8's as a tie in knot.

[@jonahovadia3991]

I use whats known as a scotts lock on my bowlines. I like it a lot

[@ryantilley9063]

Oh ya, I had a comment on this video a few years ago that mentioned that same bowline, I checked it out and it looks awesome!

[@justintan7548]

Also something I found that could undo the single bowline with yosemite finish: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJuXY3VumqiCsMU The retraced loop needs to be under the original bowline loop. It only affects the single bowline yosemite finish, the double bowline with yosemite finish seems fine. But if you have a stopper knot it won't come undone

[@TonySpinach]

very informative vid, thanks bro!

[@vbregier]

4:25 (simple bowline with stopper knot) you mention that stopper knot can get in the way when you sit in your harness. But that’s just because you started the knot by passing your rope from bottom hard point to top hard point of your harness. If you do the opposite, you’ll end up with stopper knot on the bottom of the loop, and it won’t be in the way. Also, as mentioned below, stopper knot should always be directly touching the knot, with no gap. This reduces risk of stopper knot getting loose (has this really happened to you ? I have never experienced something like this…)

[@ryantilley9063]

That’s a great idea, totally keeps the knot out of the way, thanks for that!

[@kennneth764]

very clear, thanks!

[@dangin-1000]

For the last knot (bowline on a bight) you can actually make the "retraced bowline" if you throw the bight over your head instead of going "round the tree" :)

[@ryantilley9063]

Interesting, I may have to mess around with that.

[@SteveMcMief]

Hi, your video really sparked some thoughts. I'm from Germany and when sport climbing always use the "European" bowline. Everyone here calls that one a double bowline. I had always heard the single was bad, and the double is safe. Your variants would not fly in any gym here. But nobody actually understands the knot properly. It was eye opening that the bowline knot simply squeezes the two strands that form the loop. What you do with end of the rope just adds friction.

[@bastian1833]

The English name for the "retraces bowline" is "bowline on a bight". Beside the double-figure-8 knot this is the only other tie-in knot I accept to check for correctness because it is so obvious to verify.

[@Papershields001]

Have you tried the EBSB or the Harry Butler’s Yosemite Bowline?

[@SimonDengler92]

In Frankenjura we calle the „European Version“ a double bowline. Gues a bowline folow thruh is also a good Name. Never used anithing else beides the double 8.

[@StevenSiew2]

What about scott's lock bowline?

[@AMC-eq3jr]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6vLaJ6AbdBooqM

[@andrewphillips3741]

Are you familiar with Lees locking Yosemite bowline?

[@ryantilley9063]

I wasn’t not familiar with that, and this is the first time I’ve heard of it. After looking at some videos it looks pretty cool and pretty sick, seems like an extra set of tying a bowlines with a Yosemite finish then treading the tail back through to make a sort of “stopper knot effect.” It would definitely work for a locked off bowline, thanks for showing me this!

[@andrewphillips3741]

@@ryantilley9063 no problem! It's been my go to for a while now.

[@partykrew666]

is that an edelrid boa eco rope?

[@ryantilley9063]

Ya I think so, I used a 40m gym rope for this video

[@partykrew666]

@@ryantilley9063 nice! my 70m is a boa eco. its the most supple, bouncy rope ive used yet

[@jrhernandez74]

Wow! Never secure to a gear loop. They are normally rated at about 12 lbs!

[@simonnoelkavanagh]

Sorry, really hard to make out with your hands blocking the knot...is it being twisted after the first thread....?

[@adventureswithfrodo2721]

The problem with most knots used on climbing is they are not tested. Most are just opnions.

[@markifi]

there're like 25 million people climbing? most use a #1047 figure eight, some use variations of the #1010 simple bowline (yosemite, scott's, lee's locked, rethreaded with a stopper knot). when people die there's investigation with excruciating details published for all to see. if this is not testing, i don't know what is

[@treemanstan838]

Overkill

[@Alessandromarangoni123]

The European knot we calling “Bulino Ripassato”

[@drkwrk5229]

Easy to untie.... it unties easy? So thats the problem?

[@alakazam482]

How easy it is to untie is both the biggest strength and biggest weakness of the bowline. if you whip on a figure 8 a few times, that thing is really hard to untie. a bowline is easy to untie, but you need to back it up so that it doesnt untie on you while you're on the wall

[@markifi]

you're going way too quick to make the video useful, and no clear shot from behind the knot either. you can tie these knots but not all people stumbling on this video might and giving them a way to properly learn it is much better than quickly showing off

[@jeremyletwin6120]

Hi Mark. Have you considered that being a dickhead to people online might make you a bad person?

[@markifi]

but my comment is constructive@@jeremyletwin6120

[@Ceryniful]

Lets be real here, if you're unable to keep up with this video you shouldn't be tying a bowline to climb on in the first place.

[@markifi]

@@Ceryniful it's not just the matter of keeping up, but you have to be clear in an instructional video and have to show the back side of knots so people learning it have a way to verify whether or not they tied it correctly. for a much better example, check treemuggs_patrickm's "tie it until you get it" series for knots (tree work focused, but that's beside the point). this here has the potential to be top of the search results because it's very short, but it's exactly the kind of video that shouldn't be visible anywhere, because of the limited usability.

[@natewilliams423]

Thank you, Ryan, for making this video! This is the best video on tieing in with other knots. Have you used the brotherhood knot? Does it have issues with cyclical loading do you know? Karsten likes to use it but I haven't found much information about it. instagram.com/p/B0QhpliD_l6/?

[@ryantilley9063]

I haven't used that knot to much, and I don't have to many friends that use it either, but if it's been used on the comp circuit a whole lot I guess they've done enough testing for us haha. Its virtually the same as an in-line overhand knot maybe you could look up some pull testing on that and see what that results have, as long as the knot fails at full strength of the rope then you should be good to go!