Really Great Art Because of How Great It Is - Ep. 14 of Intentionally Blank

[@ArifRWinandar]

I'm one of those people who listens to Brandon without having read any of his books. Came for the lectures, stayed for the personality.

[@andrewjennings7306]

You gonna read any of his books?

[@samuelleask1132]

Welcome! Glad to have you here :)

[@kevinmathews4050]

Yep I am as well. His books are on my list and I may get to them next year. Still he and Dan are a joy to listen to

[@annejia5382]

Same

[@annejia5382]

@@kevinmathews4050 same. Still need to save money for that. 🤣

[@freyapetersen6087]

As a person that just gave in to the algorithm assaulting her with Brandon Sanderson recommendations, despite me never having read one single book of yours: Yes we exist, yes we enjoy these talks very very much :D

[@oldsoul3539]

New podcast title: "I never should have promised I'd sign these books"

[@LucysLocket]

Love it

[@booludlow9348]

I genuinely like the title “Intentionally Blank.” And it’s the title that I associate with this podcast now. Honestly, I first gave this podcast a try because I saw the title and I thought: “… What? But what’s filling that blank?” And thus curiosity got me into this crowd.

[@GoldenMechaTiger]

Ye it's too late to change it now.

[@FractalParadox]

I like it cause it reminds me of the "Intentionally bland" character trope debate

[@discoooooooo]

At ~18:00, I'm one of those people. I haven't gotten through my other readings to start Brandon's work but one of my professors recommended one of Brandon's lectures for a design course and from there I stumbled onto this podcast.

[@Wizardously]

I gotta' be honest. I'm one of those guys who hasn't really read much of Brandon's books, but am listening to the podcast. I was first introduced to Brandon from reading the Wheel of Time, and then just last year, found his BYU videos on KZbin, and then found this podcast. So thank you for explaining your books, Brandon.

[@malice1105]

Example of a game mechanic being art: "Press 'F' to pay respects".

[@terryschmitt8050]

I was going to suggest "before your eyes" as a game that uses it's game mechanic to deliver its emotional experience.

[@myrojyn]

F

[@Uristqwerty]

In the classic "press F", the mechanics clash with the tone of the scene. Consider a minor change: *hold* F, and the scene only continues once you choose to let go.

[@KristinaMarie96]

Brandon is right about Eragon. That book series was one of my first bigger series that got me into fantasy series in general.

[@claycook9475]

I was right there with you on your train of thought with the "mid-size child", Dan. You rarely hear anything being described as mid-size aside from sedans.

[@DragonsteelKellyn]

This podcast was recorded at the beginning of the summer, but funnily enough it happened to air the week after we finally got AC at the sweatshop warehouse! 🤣

[@ChristmasLore]

That's a bit sad, or/and weird. People enjoy podcasts a bit like Livestream, for a kind of feeling of simultaneity. This way, there's sort of a disconnect, like the joke/gimmick around the podcast (no)name.

[@hhoi8225]

@@ChristmasLore Many podcasts are prerecorded, weeks or even months in advance. Sometimes the intro or outro is recorded closer to release date to keep things feeling more topical. Obviously there are a lot of podcasts that are very synced up IRL, but a great many aren't.

[@drewforchic9083]

The video essay about Predator they're thinking about about is: Predator: The Smartest Genre Mash-Up Ever? Probably! by Patrick H Willems, a KZbinr whom Brandon has talked about before. Here's the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5_cfI1me5KZjLc

[@maximeteppe7627]

I suspected that might be it.

[@thirdmort]

Knew it was Patrick!!!! Thanks for finding it!

[@calebmarmon1310]

Yup. I knew which one he was talking about.

[@elfchild9]

I'm the "one or two people" who's glad Brandon explained the title of Mistborn. My copy said "The Final Empire" on the cover, and my friend's copy said "Mistborn". It took us a while to figure out we had read the same book.

[@FractalParadox]

"This child is mid sized, which means they have 4 doors and ample trunk space..." - realizes what those are usually metaphors for - "... which is a frankly terrible thing to say about a child"

[@audacity4277]

Game mechanics as art. I knew it. The Elder Scrolls' physics aren't buggy. Oblivion is simply a post modern take on the futility of an orderly presentation of objects that, in their very core, yearn to fly across the room the second you come near them.

[@myradimm4112]

This made me laugh a lot. You are a genius.

[@michaelrpiazza]

I love how Brandon completely didn’t understand the expression “I have the tea”

[@Pablo360able]

I'm not 100% sure he understood "Two Men, One Thought" either. If not, nobody tell him.

[@michaelrpiazza]

@@Pablo360able definitely

[@aprils9178]

Put some sugar in the tea.

[@theoriganalxldub]

I love that they suddenly know how to say "boba" this episode too lol

[@MutantAlchemist450]

I highly recommend that you check out the KZbin channel Games as Literature. He does literary analysis of video games and is often very insightful. He actually also has a short series of videos examining the arguments from Roger Ebert you mentioned in this episode. Good stuff.

[@AndJDrake]

Thanks for the recommendation!

[@myrojyn]

"I'm a real KZbinr now" *Daniel Greene sweats*

[@christiantso4365]

I've almost finished all the episodes on this podcast (listening to them backwards). I'm a fan of Brandon's. I just realised I've read books written by Dan when I was 10 years old, 5 years before I read my first Brandon book! I loved Zero-G and Dragon Planet as a kid. Wow!

[@Marxtheory]

I've never read your books Brandon..but I'm listening to this podcast lol...because I came across your writing classes on KZbin and they're great.

[@dorianmckenzie9888]

Well, I'm not familiar with either of your books. But as a writer and aspiring author, I know of and have heard if Brandon. Anf listening to various story and writing content creators, one of Brandon's lectures popped up in my recommended feed. Months later, an episode from this podcast did as well. And i love listening to people with interesting perspectives and additionally here, veterans of a craft and passion I love as well. Sooooo here i find myself. Appreciate you both.

[@monsternside1509]

"Implied Dragons" Edit: How about "Arnold is the final girl"

[@BrandSanderson]

That one is very cool.

[@LucysLocket]

New podcast title ideas: •Spoken for the Subway •This title covers EVERYTHING! •Discussions on the Internet 𝑆𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒𝑠 𝐼𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑒𝑛𝑡 •Paper airplanes & carrier pigeons Past podcast title ideas: •Here’s a tangent •Better than worse •Knowledgeable rambling •Always on topic 😂 •Bad at titles

[@Xarfax321]

I gotta tell ya, what I missed from Jurassic World was the "moment of awesome". Like that scene where Alan and Ellie is sitting out in the car at the field and they spot a brachiosaurus, the music swells and Alan and Ellie are both shocked and amazed by this sight! And it's meant to be an amazing sight, like it's the fantasy both Alan and Ellie have had their whole lives! And so Hammond goes "Welcome to Jurassic Park!" and the scene pans over this amazing breed of life that is existing on this island! To me that movie brought a sense of wonder to the whole idea of Jurassic Park, as well as horror of course. And Jurassic World doesn't have a scene like that, as far as I can remember. There is no "wonder" about the dinosaurs there, I think even one of the coworkers call the dinosaurs "Pepsisaurus", because they are not like dinosaurs really were. I get that, but still: where is the sense of wonder?

[@anotherone5235]

"[Your signature] looks like the books you write" sounds like quite a backhanded compliment :D

[@PetrSojnek]

Well I guess all that Brandon writes is just BS :D /joke

[@kennethfender3518]

Your discussion about "are video game (mechanics) art" was really interesting. And I would say yes, because there are emotional experiences created by games that only exist because of player choice, which I think is the most basic idea of a game mechanic. It is the thing video games can do better than any other mass media art form. Pillars of Eternity is essentially a D&D video game, you recruit a party of companions, do their individual quests, and eventually have a showdown with a big bad. You learn about this big bad a lot before this final confrontation and you learn that he killed someone who loved him just because they opposed his ultimate goals. When you face him you can confront him with this fact, that he just uses people for his own purposes, and he counters that you do the exact same thing. He says your companions don't really have a will of their own, that they follow you to the ends of the earth and their wants are unimportant to you. Whether this is true or not and the feeling you are left with depends on how you've treated your companions throughout the game. When you deal with their individual problems they ask for your advice and you can pressure them into whatever side of their own moral conundrums you think is right, or you can tell them to do whatever they think is right and that you will support them either way. Because of these choices you are left either feeling sorry for this deluded man who can't imagine not using the people who care about and trust him, or the unsettling realization that your behavior and his do share some similarities. It's my favorite moment in a video game and it's powerful because of the format, the writing, art, and voice acting are all *part* of it, but couldn't deliver that experience without being part of a game. Now that is using a somewhat abstract concept of a "game mechanic", but I would contend that those story choices absolutely are a game mechanic (and as a result I would also say that visual novels that include aspects of choice are absolutely games). But I think you can find unique emotional experience that exist because of very specific and robust game mechanics. There's a youtube video called "Darkest Dungeon and Ludonarrative" that provides a good example of this, the game makes you feel like a business person or administrator almost entirely through the mechanics, and that is an intentional, effective experience that makes you think in a different way.

[@davidpo5517]

I’m sorry, but Brandon Sanderson’s signature is literally bs? Too funny

[@danacoleman4007]

As is his line of work

[@theonlysinoda]

@@danacoleman4007 dana 😂 now that’s uncalled for

[@myrojyn]

Dan:...what books have dragons in it? Brandon: Dragonsteel

[@captainsirk1173]

Just watch. One of these days, Intentionally Blank will appear at the top of a list of the best podcast names

[@maybelore]

counterpoint/continuation to the point made at 41:00 "you can't really do that any more with eBooks and whatnot." while turning a normal book into an eBook, things like that page turn can get lost in translation. But for things specifically designed for phones like Webtoon where it's format is to scroll through the story until the end of the episode (chapter) and there are clever things that you can do with that that could get lost in translation. for example the Webtoon Elf & Warrior there is a dramatic scene atop a waterfall and at the end of it as a scene transition you follow the waterfall down to where the next scene takes place and you couldn't have the continuous flow of the waterfall if it ware a book. it could work if it was a cartoon though and that's probably why the app is called WebTOON, some of them even have music and sound effects to go with the stories which is cool

[@pyrojkl]

I love how as a reader I started getting into more fantasy books in high school with dragon than before college I discovered Anne mccaffery and the dragon riders of pern. It’s interesting just how much you miss out on when you are on the outside of fantasy and start delving deeper. Now thanks to audio books I am able to pick up and read so much more than I would otherwise and understand just how hard it is to go back and read books like eragon which at the time I thought were fantastic.

[@superiorgo2368]

Mind blown. One of the hosts on stuntmen react was wearing a bridge 4 shirt today

[@scootskute]

I like how there is a dividing line between Brandon and Dan, but the microphones appear to be a single, if slightly deformed mic that they both happen to be talking into. Happy coincidence.

[@mikeshaffer4912]

Missed Opportunity: Not saying Kids in Space like the intro to the Muppet Show Pigs in Space skits.

[@firstNamelastName-ho6lv]

Honestly I wouldn't have clicked on the podcast if it had any other name... Intentionally Blank just seemed so funny and clever that I am now binging your whole podcast history.

[@mhreinhardt]

My partner once signed one of my checks while I was out so they could pay for a last minute surprise gift when they couldn't find theirs. The person cashed it right away. My bank ruined the surprise by calling me about a fraudulent signature. So, yeah, they check, or at least some algorithms do. Also, digging the new show whatever it's called, keep it going!

[@ashley-r-pollard]

Your discussion on critiques and critiquing hit the the nail on the head and gave me something to chew on.

[@TakeItToTheOcean]

I’m planning on reading Brandon’s books. But now the contrarian in me wants to keep learning about writing and general creativity while prolonging the read.

[@reillyliner]

Brandon convo at 28 minutes is why I like Jeremy Jahns so much. Somehow, he is able to maintain the love of movies. Favorite movie critic.

[@robholts7302]

I want a book called Apocalypse: Cancelled, a novel about opposing deities who cancel their plans for the great war to end all wars and join forces to face a mutual threat: Furbies.

[@najeebhq]

Any plans for doing a video on the Wheel of Time trailer?

[@Jarlisson0]

Eu realmente amo ouvir vocês dois falando sobre crítica. Parabéns Dan e Brandon.

[@MagnetonJjungle]

Podcast title: »I‘m a real KZbinr now«

[@RosmaryGrace]

And now I have to make everyone on a subway car listen to this. Its required.

[@KK-ef1ow]

There's a good quote in Ratatouille about how often the value of the critics review is worth less than the paper its written on.

[@ChristmasLore]

The battle between authors of various medias and critics has been going on literally for centuries. There are pamphlets from the middle age on the topic...

[@christianbjorck816]

I do not think that is fair. There are some genuinly great critics, that can both praise and bash fairly. Brandons books do have flaws and aren’t among the greatest works of literature made. Can people still enjoy them? Sure. People need to set aside their own personal feelings and look at it more objectively when it comes to this. If all you read is the books of one author or just one genre then that is a limitation and you miss out on so many other great books. For example I did read Eragon when I had started getting into fantasy, but found it mediocre then (my unconsius mind must have seen then and there that it was a rip off Star Wars as I had watched those films a few times before reading Eragon). Now when I have more reading experience and look back on it, it’s just not a very good book in comparison to other works. I would rather spend time reading classics like works of Dostojevskij, Shakespeare, Selma Lagerlöf etc. then ”generic” fantasy. I do feel some works like say Tolkiens have been a bit unfairly bashed by critics though as they did not seem to quite understand it. It depends on the critic I would say. C.S. Lewis was a marvelous literary critic for example, extremly well read.

[@Jakey5A9913]

I was wondering why my copy of the The Final Empire only had Mistborn on the cover. Glad I found this explanation.

[@gordo6908]

ive never read either of your works, here from you guy's lectures

[@trlns59]

26:50 Shout out to Anne McCaffrey. Dragonsong and Dragonsinger are 2 of my all time favourites.

[@EayuProuxm]

"Arnold is the final girl" is the analysis I signed up for

[@scowlinsun]

On the topic of Ebert and games, I just wanted to provide a list of artistic mechanics in games. - Asgore destroying the Mercy button. - The mechanical struggle against the powerful in things like Dark Souls and Shadow of the Colossus. - The "saving Yorha" sequence of Nier Automata. - The final boss of MGS4. Things of that nature.

[@MKTraxel]

It's going to make me really sad if one day Brandon and Dan actually come up with a different podcast title, and this isn't just their running joke about how they've always planned for the title to be Intentionally Blank but that they needed to have a running thread with all their ramblings. 🤣

[@lymandecoconut4832]

I've been listening to this podcast for a while, but I only recently started reading a Brandon Sanderson novel for the first time. The algorithm knew I was interested in fantasy. I had been putting off reading any Brandon Sanderson novels in part because I didn't know many fantasy authors outside Tolkien and Rowling; I had been finding books to read by browsing at the bookstore. It was also in part because I wanted hardcovers and Barnes and Noble only had paperbacks. Regardless, I'm on chapter 5 of Elantris, the hardcover for which was thankfully available online, and I love it so far.

[@graidar5]

Intentionally Blank for 14 episodes now...don't ruin your marketing! I'm all in for IB

[@MrSilvUr]

I'm still a fan of "Speaking of Tangents" for the podcast name.

[@milospollonia1121]

That's great

[@Supaawesomeification]

When you said refrigerator logic, I assumed it referred to Indiana Jones at first lmao

[@nuxus2]

I just wish to point out that i am likely one of the few people who haven't read one your guys' book (yet).... I just sorta stumbled over here via Daniel greene :D

[@ChristmasLore]

Daniel sadly doesn't care much for Dan's books.

[@DadBodSwagGod]

You NEED to watch Fast & Furious : Tokyo Drift Apparently, in Japan, drifting is a magic system

[@cbpd89]

I didn't know you were a Rifftrax fan, Brandon! The Eragon riffs are great. Even riffs for truly great movies are a lot of fun. The Jurassic Park rifftrax are some of my favorites and that movie is one of my all time faves!

[@cbpd89]

The Predator video essay he's talking about is by Patrick H Willems. It is absolutely great, go check it out!

[@evanhedges6802]

18:00 I'm one of those people who don't know Brandon's books. I've read Stormlight and Elantris, but haven't read any of his other books.

[@jaredpoulter6762]

I work for a large financial institution and in a previous position I would verify signatures on written money movement requests before approving them.

[@ASMRChess]

INTELLIGENTLY BLANK!

[@kevinboucher3185]

New podcast name: Something Intelligently This podcast in a nutshell

[@brittneyfaulkner774]

Maybe "Say Something Intelligently" 😆 they do say that phase a couple times in the podcast. :p

[@ThePsiGuard]

One game mechanic that struck me as viscerally "artful" was a quick-time event in Call of Duty: Black Ops (the first one I think). In one scene, you have to strangle a guy. The controls to accomplish this involve pressing down on both control sticks as fast as you can. It kind of does simulate strangling someone as similar muscle groups are activated. That scene would have been forgotten if the mechanic was simply holding X or something.

[@hunterbartley7071]

Wren, from the channel that does stuntmen react, is a huge fan of yours, Brandon.

[@althechicken9597]

There's a title for you "Dear passengers on that subway car: we're sorry" Also please coin the term of "people in a subway car" to mean those poor souls who listen to us talk about fantasy and have no idea what we are talking about, in conversation or just near us when nerd talk happens!

[@ColtonsHobbies]

I love the title intentionally blank and I also like the idea that they hate it. It’s beautiful

[@lilacrimosa]

I am one of the people out here who doesn’t know Brandon’s books (at least not that well) but listens to this podcast! Also listen to writing excuses of course and Brandon’s lectures at BYU. But haven’t read a single book of his yet. Don’t worry, I definitely plan to, I just haven’t really read any books in many years (despite wanting to write books one day possibly lol?).

[@lizbusby86]

They actually do compare signatures when you vote. One of mine got flagged once because my home contact made me use my full name but I usually only sign Liz. Had to send a new sample signature to update it and get my ballot counted.

[@KatieGimple]

Signature verification is only really important if either you or your bank get audited, but it's not something that will realistically come up for most people.

[@EHngelic]

Plot twist: Brandon and Dan wrote and folded all the paper airplanes

[@bayardmartins]

I'd never realize that the belt scene was a metaphore for the dinosaur reproduction in jurassic park

[@geekparkingonly2802]

I watch your lectures but haven’t read a single one of your books and very much enjoy the podcast. Am I the one or two???

[@ASMRChess]

it would appear that we are the two

[@andrewberenson5717]

Dan went from a blanket to a shirt and tie.

[@noahearl]

Intentionally Blank the best title yet again

[@PJ-gb5hi]

SANDERWELLS for podcast titel!!!!!!!!!!!

[@justinadler4695]

As an alternative title “I am not an Archive”

[@stridera]

The games can't be art reminds me of some english classes I took in college. The teacher kept saying "Songs lyrics are not poetry" which I always felt as horribly wrong.

[@christianbjorck816]

I would argue that the game itself isn’t art, but part of what makes the game is art. So character design, music, the story (if there is one), aestethics. I think also the problem is that the term ”art” is a bit to loose and somehow people think anything can be ”art”. Which to me says that nothing is. There needs to be a standard and very specific things that ”art” constitutes. As for song lyrics, they fall in a certain category of poetry. I am not that well-versed in poetry but if we look at the Illyad for exemple that used to be chanted and has a certain pattern. Are all song lyrics poetry though? That I am not so certain of.

[@Parmandur]

Fast & Furious is so successful because it has so often walked that lime of entertaining general audiences and not being dull to critics.

[@guimond777]

Am I the only one that noticed that Brandons and Dans mics perfectly line up on the split screen?

[@aprilw2287]

They have no intention of ever changing the podcast title and they know it!

[@WhiteBread221]

If Brandon (or anyone else) likes really deep dives critiques into media, I’d recommend the KZbinr MauLer. Great stuff but it’s definitely a nuts and bolts breakdown with little discussion on the “art” side of the story writing

[@SlackwareNVM]

As a side note, is it possible to update the podcast playlist? I'm lagging behind on listening to the episodes and I have to dig deeper and deeper to find what I'm looking for. As a side side note - the old thumbnails made the new episodes more visually distinctive in the channel's videos tab and in the youtube subscription feed.

[@thekingofmars8858]

For anyone who's interested, I'm pretty certain the video Brandon's talking about is this one by Patrick H Willems- kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5_cfI1me5KZjLc

[@IzroneI]

Yeah this has to be it.

[@NerdsIsPown]

I'm actually an example of someone who, regretfully, can't get into Brandon's books to save his life, but who loves the guy: podcasts, QnA's and all - all of which are very artistically stimulating.

[@miscellaneousgoblin910]

Amazing to learn that Brandon shares my love of Ryan George!

[@edwardlennie5731]

Is Vin from Mistborn maybe a subtle tribute to Vin Diesel? I'd like to think so. Also, the stuntmen react video you are talking about is from Corridor Digital, a fantastic VFX youtube channel. One of their members, Wren, is a massive Stormlight Archive fan :D

[@sebenotblank9487]

A good example how mechanics drastically change your expierence is "Silver" (very old RPG) where you controlled the Fights with mouse movements that felt like sword blows. It made the game a very different expierence. Or with Escape from tarkov. The choice of having barely or no hud at all makes it very immersive which of course changes the expierence.

[@hecksnek6158]

9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors is always my go to example for explaining how game mechanics can fundementally alter a story. Without spoiling much, It uses the fact that it was released on the DS to tell it's story. So much so, that in the remake, they had to change the waay the story was presented in a really clunky way.

[@mhreinhardt]

I appreciate how pedantic you were about how pedantic a critique was.

[@ChristmasLore]

Brandon is indeed getting more on the pedantic side with time, it does annoy me actually rather often. On all the videos, it feels a bit like he is a king with his whole court, everyone cutting their hair in four (french expression) to please him at all time. It's a bit weird. Maybe can be related to this particular church culture, and the image of a patriarch..not sure. But it's quite unsettling at times.

[@milospollonia1121]

guys I think you're reading too much into it

[@DanVideos]

@@ChristmasLore bro what

[@hiltrud2001]

I would like to hear your opinion on "Metropolis" (1929) by Fritz Lang, but the restored version from 2010. Science Fiction

[@cykeok3525]

Regarding plot holes discussed at the 30 minute mark, I'd say unexplained plot elements are fine, they're gaps where there might be multiple possibilities, even the explanations might be contrived. However, internal contradictions are unacceptable. It can take the audience out of the moment and ruin their immersion. Some might only notice them after they've walked out of the theatre (in which case at least the awareness of the plot hole only ruins their repeat viewings), but some might notice them as they watch the movie, which can ruin the movie itself. It's an even bigger shame if the internal contradiction was easily avoidable, especially if it was an otherwise a well-made film.

[@KethusNadroev]

35:52 Dan's gonna love the Fate franchise. :D

[@myrojyn]

When they got distracted before the two minute mark 🤣

[@4videovideo]

I always understood a plot hole to be more of a direct contradiction within the work that cannot make sense and would have to be changed to fix the story, rather than something that is left unexplained.

[@evilevan9687]

All I want is for them to show us one of the paper airplanes

[@annejia5382]

two man one thought is like the "we share the same brain cell" 🤣

[@koltonkulis4763]

I think game mechanics are part of art. The game mechanics of Doom: Eternal are designed to give you a particular feel. The gameplay is frenetic and made to get your heart pounding while the heavy metal washes over you. And even the glory kills give you little windows of rest to reavaluate your surroundings.

[@talongeorge3750]

I like the title intentionally blank

[@aprils9178]

Signature- real estate is all electronic. From leases to purchases.

[@Fedovoi]

I like how the old episodes are split into all the segments and unsuccessful segways, while the new ones aren't. They broke the poor editor with their tangents!

[@strydyrhellzrydyr1345]

I think it is the definition of art... That changed

[@hmmmooops]

Someone out there has read every published Sanderson book and only now learned there's been dragons there all along