BREAKTHROUGH! NEW Cheapest Space Marine FOUND!

CONFUSED? Check out PART 1: • This HOI4 Division Wil...
Spreadsheet meta: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Support me on PATREON / feedbackgaming
Sub to my MAIN KZbin: @DaveFeedBackGaming
Sub to my FEEDBACKIRL on KZbin: @FeedbackIRL
Sub to MEMES channel: @feedbackmemes
DISCORD talk with me / discord
Follow on TWITTER: / feedbackgaming
Follow for TWITCH livestreams: / feedbackgaming
Business email: [e-mail]
Produced by Duck Taped Studios:
- Twitter - / markoni1100
- Business Email - [e-mail]
Edited by Dosonomeizu:
- Discord - dosonomeizu# 6355
Thumbnail by Pluton:
- Twitter - / pluton943
#hoi4 #heartsofiron4 #hoi4guide

[@simplypepe1732]

I don't think TD suffers from any hardness modifiers. It's just that we had wheeled suspension on our light tank destroyer design.

[@IndependentObserver]

that's exactly correct.

[@Swagmaster07]

Eh, it dosent matter, if i will ever make space marines i will just use the boogie suspension.

[@arocke1317]

It seems like the relevant metric for this analysis shouldnt be ‘IC per point of armor’ but more ‘how can you get to certain armor thresholds most effectively at points in the game’. So i think you’d need to determine what the typical AI divisions piercing is at 1939 and 1941 and then get the cheapest way to get to the various armor breakpoints relative to enemy peircing

[@t2force212]

That's why he wasn't even considering LT scout, the armor they have is too little. For everything else penetration can climb quickly so relieing on LT for space marines becomes pointless by 1940 most of the time

[@fouriertransformationsucks438]

Exactly. I think It would be interesting to have a graph of average piercing for the majors according to the years and plot them together. For example, for Germany. Give 2 curves, like Inf piercing vs. Time, Highest piercing vs Time. The extra armor above the threshold is not useful and the value should not be taken into consideration.

[@Swagmaster07]

Ai always adds AA and Anti tank in their divisions (Most of the time)

[@anarchosnowflakist786]

also it'd be interesting to take into account that some tanks will break down easier during combat or attrition, further increasing the production cost

[@derp_wolf9688]

​@@fouriertransformationsucks438he did

[@aaronfalcon3152]

"incorporated heavily in multiplayer" no no, everyone bans them lmao. They utterly break multiplayer because the soviets become even more unpushable when they have TDs in infantry. (And soviets have unbreakable builds as is). Like the new jacket though btw, looks good on you

[@etherealhawk]

Yeah, sucks how little MP content there is on builds. Still doesn't suck as much as desyncs.

[@sharkymb8552]

Lol I keep losing to Germany AI How do you make unpushable units

[@BanControl]

​@@sharkymb8552same lol I know soviets are probably the strongest overall nation, but I get pushed by Germany 90% of the time unless I buff the shit out of myself

[@ceaciruleonardadrian3585]

i believe that if you research the AA tree the AA on the tank should also increase so I think the AA tank is far better

[@Ionenkanone1]

To be honest I dont feel it worth it to us wheeled suspention, the only thing we want out of these are armor and hardness so sacreficing 30% hardness for 10% cost reduction seems not that usfull

[@ryankolbe365]

correct, having hardness is the only way an infantry div can even keep exp on a sustained offensive, and thus a heavy is actually a much better option if you go for the heavy cannon for how it does all those things in one battalion

[@jevinliu4658]

These space marine divisions are 9-1 infantry-tank divisions, which means instead of 30 percent hardness, they are losing 2 percent (8 -> 6) as stated from the video. and a probably more than 3 percent IC reduction. It is also clear that this division, with barely any hard or soft attack, is not capable of offensives anyways, and the armor is there to prevent piercing. These are defensive units. Differently-sized space marines will probably function differently.

[@ryankolbe365]

@@jevinliu4658 The gist of mobile warfare is that it makes your armor and infantry count for more in breakthrough and org so having more arty or scaling it up into mot/mech into a skirmisher that can consistently overmatch an org wall of similar size given other multipliers like air superiority, CAS and bombardment. Consider that division to be more transitory in nature

[@ryankolbe365]

@@jevinliu4658 you will not be able to achieve coverage over even a smaller area unless it happens in phases on smaller divisions (or they wont be able to keep exp and thus won't be economical)

[@jevinliu4658]

@@ryankolbe365 No, not particularly. You might do something different, but these units shown are clearly main-line units. Consider this a slight improvement on top of a 9-infantry division, not a whole tank division I don't get why you're insisting so much on offensive overmatch, you are free to make your own offensive space marines division if you wish (maybe a start from 7-2, idk)

[@TheArklyte]

>Sacrifices all hardness for small production cost benefit with wheels, still hikes up cost with angled armor. >Doesn't utilize Easy Maintenance production discount on 1939 tanks

[@themacker894]

Love the video. One part of your comparison that's not apples to apples is when you set the speed of every tank to 4 Kph and called it even with the travel speed of infantry. Tanks have various debuffs to speed depending on terrain, and considerably more than infantry. Then there are increasing terrain debuffs as you go up from light to medium to heavy. Not counting actual speed and sticking to 4 Kph for each tank is certainly skewing your results in favor of larger tanks since you'd have to increase their overall speed to equal a similar "average" speed for a light tank, and even then you'd have to increase beyond 4 Kph to equal an "average" infantry speed across the different types of terrain.

[@pauldennison1757]

That's not how speed is calculated. The terrain debuffs of line battalions are averaged by battalion count across the division. Increasing the speed on the tank would be calculated as such: Tank speed is 4.3 + the slowest battalion in the unit is the infantry at 4.0 = the division base speed is set to 4.0. Tank battalion suffers a 10% terrain speed penalty + there are 9 infantry battalions in the division with no terrain speed penalty = division terrain speed penalty of 1%. Division terrain speed penalty of 1% is applied to the base speed of 4.0 into get a speed of 3.96.

[@guncolony]

Remember you only need 44.5% Reliability to minimize attrition losses on 36 tanks. On 1936 lights this is enough to go wheeled suspension and 3 extra ammunition storages and still end up with 46% reliability This is 13 points breakthrough with mobile warfare for 176 cost per battalion. Regular support AA costs 80. So this tank is giving 12 more breakthrough, as well as more than 10 armor on the division for only 96 more cost than regular AA, which is absolutely insane.

[@moneybadger420]

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIION - why r U in a jacket? How does that work, you just come back from wherever, dont take off your boots, jacket. Instead crash in front of the computer and like - yeah baby - youtube time!

[@cosmicelectron]

Can he not wear a jacket because he's cold? or am I not getting a joke here

[@moneybadger420]

@@cosmicelectron of course he can. This looks like a rain jacket. Was he in the rain? No, the hair is not wet.

[@FeedbackIRL]

Poor youtuber can't pay gas bill

[@kumayasei]

It's great to see that out of 2 comments you replied to, you ended up making videos about both of them. Spreading my Spanish cheapness all over the world

[@elolawynladriel]

why not both? add AA until you have right ammount of air attack so AI still uses air, and then add normal version.

[@TheRewasder97]

I always use medium AA tanks with 9 armour and 0 engine, getting a very effective and very cheap machine. Later down the game when I get the last version of medium, as my industry usually can cover it, I get a stronger armour version with the extra components.

[@calebthewells]

One point, The price comparison per divison is not the only stat. Also consider price per armour point applied to the division. 25 armour beats 10 armour by over double

[@TheArklyte]

There's a small trick connected to light SPGs being able to convert into light tanks and back with just click of a button and being de facto both - Hungary has production discount for all SPGs. You produce SPGs, but then use whichever is useful to you. Haven't found use for it yet, but just consider it interesting. Sadly doesn't work with medium howitzer on light chassis:(

[@MrErdem95]

You should put heavy spaa for armor spam and you gain some stats out of it as well.

[@onlyliesandabottleofshit2009]

If you consider the Bonus AA you would have to consider Bonus soft and hard ATK for spgs and tds

[@localman9063]

The reason why aa is significant enough to warrant discussion over the others is that close air support in this game can absolutely ruin an opponent's offense or defense no matter the stats on his division, because he is constantly losing org and equipment. Air attack is the only stat that alleviates that problem.

[@terralp2062]

@@localman9063 Bit late but it also allows you to get rid of the Anti Air Support Divisions and replace it with one of the newer Special Forces Support Divisions. Freeing up one of these 5 slots is quite important. You lose a bit of piercing in the process but that is irrelevant in Singleplayer, where AI will never build tanks with proper armour. And space marines are banned in any proper multiplayer game regardless.

[@MarlosCanuel]

That's 2 to 5 mils I can swap over from AA as soon as I can build a decent SP AA! That will be alot of production in the long run. You can keep just a little of AA production on your holding and port garrison divisions which don't grind equipment as much.

[@user-wx1iv1fw3d]

8:00 那些"生產成本" 應該是訓練部隊的成本才對，跟製作裝備無關才對

[@kurtlutter3020]

Looks like they nerfed AA medium tanks

[@michaelarmia]

Easy maintenance and wet ammunition for extra reliability and cheaper ic is huge for heavies

[@emreerdem2772]

I get it all but... WHY THE BROTHERHOOD ARMOR?

[@padmad3832]

You don't use power armor divisions?

[@russellhagan2539]

39 tech you can also add on east maintenance

[@Not_Evil_]

Super heavy AA only, when??

[@acsimark]

SPG gives armor, increase damage by 40% and increase the base damage, same for TD in hard attack. Its only wothwhile to attach 1 division as it provides 40% of avarage armor, so the higher the better, as you must increase armor the heavy will be more beneficial. I Would start with medAA then attack heavy SPG with med howitzer 4 turrets and so on.

[@noemartinez8713]

Hi, I'm new to pc and hoi4. I don't have that options when upgrading my tanks or any vehicles like you have. Like is only 4 options engine, armor ,gun , reliability. Is that a mod ? If so how do you download them

[@hicbisey2805]

you need no step back dlc

[@KK-my6hw]

The smoking jacket and has evolved into the gaming jacket.

[@picklesusa3449]

Can you go over Gas tanks. I heard of this strategy to make light tanks where all of their modules are fuel drums. You put them along side your regular medium tanks and it’s supposed to keep your tanks constantly fueled

[@historicalprespective1876]

It's pretty simple, you make light tanks and light flames and add as much fuel as you can to give your divisions a bonus to fuel capacity. Good for Barbarossa and Africa for the parts where you run low on fuel (like before getting to Stalingrad), but you'll still be suffering from low supply

[@Kandall05161]

Gas tanks add more fuel storage to the entire division, not the specific tank they're connected too. Not much else to say really, the whole benefit is you get to have your real tanks with their proper modules, and then throw on support companies (with minimal impact on overall division stats) that provide massive fuel storage for the division. Or you can just properly supply your divisions and not worry about them running out of fuel.

[@alimox9446]

Max Armor Medium Flamer and Light Recon = Nearly INF sm with 19 armor

[@Kaiser282]

I completely forgot I could make AA tanks. My Baltic campaigns are going to go so much better now.

[@dutchduke8864]

You focused on the added AA but what was the difference in added soft attack? Wouldn’t that be another factor?

[@DatCoMm101]

i would have liked to see how much extra soft attack the SPG gave. in 36 and with a better 39 gun for the 39 SPG (as well as the additional piercing that TD & AA got). you pointed out the benefits of the AA but didn't point out the equivalent pros of the alternatives, those expensive guns you added). would fixed turrets have been better than the 1man turrets in any of your example tanks? adding back that reliability.

[@12gark]

Reliability is pointless for a tank like that. It's like support companies, you only need reliability to what you use in large quantities, because it averages out with the resto of the equipment.

[@DatCoMm101]

@@12gark great point, when only added 1 to tank to the template it's a very small number of tanks. Sure, but the designs had been tweaked for "adaquate" reliability. It was mentioned when talking about the engines, would it have been better? It could have been nice to see, I don't have time to do these kind of tests myself.... Apparently... It also would have allowed for serious howitzers or AT on smaller tanks, like I mentioned, those would have been possible benifits of TD and SPG.

[@martinlarsen7354]

Wouldn't the SPG and TD be better with Fixed Superstructure? You get Defense and Reliability at the cost of Breakthrough, dunno if the larger gun mount ability would let you cut back on the engine. Might mean a cheaper vehicle over all.

[@LifeofPandK]

The AA gets wrecked by 1945 in my experience no matter how many you add to the template. I am going to try to switch to Heavy at around that point and see if its better.

[@zarinth]

Yes, just in time before the new xpansion.

[@bittenamehiereinfugen3713]

That's a wild click bait

[@agaapitodisousa6014]

you forget that it is only necessary to have twice as much armor as the enemy's penetration, beyond that it is useless

[@FeedbackIRL]

CONFUSED? Check out PART 1: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4i2kIKemJ6HgrM

[@derekjones6984]

Great insight Dave

[@bartu913]

Why tf are you wearing a jacket inside your room?

[@salzmann4207]

I asked myself this question almost every single vid.

[@Zerathrax]

@@salzmann4207 Because he can. It literally doesn't matter in the slightest.

[@FeedbackIRL]

Poor youtuber can't pay gas bill

[@FeedbackIRL]

Spreadsheet meta: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19J_KH9T1UZKf3U7RNt7uTw7YoEixGv4RmWtjm3hi_vQ/edit?usp=sharing

[@FeedbackIRL]

Everyone has access now, sorry! docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19J_KH9T1UZKf3U7RNt7uTw7YoEixGv4RmWtjm3hi_vQ/edit?usp=sharing

[@thunderwarrior2459]

These videos go on and on and on and on and on and on and on

[@ThatOliveMrT]

So assuming you're playing single player is really just scaling armor to a certain value 1939, 41, 43, 45 respectively. You can pretty much always pierce AI with AA so pull double duty with that. Armor cars are totally worthless as far as I know. In fact you're better off making a light tank recon you've beefed up. Before you get 'over the hump' it's all about IC cost. Once production keeps up you can think about min max

[@KinoTechUSA69]

#JacketGate

[@Stouzough]

Love your videos, but the picture-in-picture is always hiding important numbers, such as production costs down right...

[@kellymcbright5456]

This guy declared publicly: i am not perfect. But i need perfect guys. I will never again watch this guy :)

[@efeabal6410]

I use max armour medium tanks for space marines. 4 artillery; aa, signal, logistic, cheapest medium flame and sup. arti. for sup. companies and enough infantry to make it 40 width. Speed doesn't matter, AI can't pierce, nice breakthrough and soft attack. Even in the late game when AI puts 6 divisions per tile that runs them over.

[@gots0359]

bro doesnt even has engineers

[@efeabal6410]

River attack bonus doesn't worth it, all the other 5 I use is better.

[@elusivemedic5748]

'ello mates :)

[@jakesomethingorother4676]

If you're looking strictly for armor I guess AA is the way to go, but honestly I'd rather have extra soft/hard attack and breakthrough. I guess it's more expensive but you get armor and additional stats, I'd rather use towed AA. I haven't compared the stats between them though.

[@12gark]

Remember, here there is a HUGE factor: reliability. You don't need 80% reliability on a tank you use only 36 or 50 per division. You need around 45% for the AA and 53% for the other two, because the reliability "averages" across all equipment in the division let's say. My English is not good enough to explain this further, I'm sorry. But the point is that you can add one extra ammunion storage on the AA (3 compared to only 2), so you get some extra breakthrough, and you replace the regular support AA. Plus you get enough piercing to actually pierce tanks, and some extra stats, even if not that much compared to spg/TD. Not to say spg or TD are useless, but it really depends what you want your "space marine" for. You may use spg on "pushing" infantry and only spaa on defensive units you need to deploy in large numbers.

[@Davin64]

With reliability that low, the costs are significantly higher than portrayed in this video and the others. Furthermore, during wartime that will add much more stress to the economy than necessary. Better to build them bestest soonest with as close to 100% reliability as possible. Another thing to consider would be refit cost. You'll be refitting from early to later tech as you go along, so that cost will create much heavier strain on the economy than a basic table will represent and take time. What's more, we need to consider the fact that we are building specialized tanks over and above what we would have in a legitimate tank division. Lastly, I think, is combat effectiveness vs terrain. You're space marines are going to be fighting....everywhere, in all terrain types. Therefore the light should be the only one considered for this. Heavies and super-heavies against forts are worthless, considering most forts in France or Czechoslovakia are in the mountains anyway. Mediums also have heavy penalties there, and if you're going to amphibiously invade Britain or elsewhere, anything more than a light tank is worthless in the end. There's one more thing. This is Germany we're talking about. Whereas Russia can get away with small modifications to the starting light tank BT-7, everybody else requires time to get production efficiency back up when making major changes to the equipment. And Germany's going to be at war at least a year before Russia. Germany needs AIR more than anything else, and let's face it, a proper Medium Tank for the panzer divisions. The proper med tank is the Panzer IV modified for bigger soft attack, which comes 'late' in terms of production, so you'll be pushing those for panzer divisions while at war. Anything less isn't worth building. Add to that the necessity for naval bombers, tactical bombers, CAS, and above all fighter production. And lots of it. Having more garbage does not help my economy at all. But what do I know? I just had a Russia in which every division had a heavy tank company and an air force that had green air everywhere throughout the entire war. And I got buttstomped by the Germans lol. Even puppeted Finland before all this. I absolutely wrecked those poor f******. I am no good at this game, but I do understand it is much more complex, with many more things to consider, than just making the cheapest tanks to stick with infantry divs.

[@GoErikTheRed]

I find that when holding back the Germans, it’s better to have more cheap divisions than a few strong divisions. Granted I don’t have all the DLC, so that might change things, but stacking divisions 5 tall of 18 width infantry with engineers, support arty, and support AA. I use the starting cav units to sit one on each tile to provide recon. Occasionally I need to manually cycle units back in because they get pushed back but then just sit there without rejoining the front line. In my most recent game that got pushed back at most 3 tiles in red air while my attention and Air Force were completely devoted to destroying the Romanians/Bulgarians.

[@GiantSleepy]

The constant cuts are getting a bit much. Just do a new take.

[@ElizaWebbg]

I think it’s because dead air makes zoomers x off

[@CARL_093]

👍👍

[@frankargenti]

developers and modders should start to use Ai to implement and optimize their mods