Bretz's Spokane Flood & The Missoula Floods

Nick Zentner | April 5, 2024
2024 Downtown Geology Lecture Series. Lecture 2 of 3. Recorded at Morgan Auditorium in Ellensburg, Washington, USA.
• Ice Age Floods A to Z ...
www.nickzentner.com/
0:00 Chalkboards
28:29 Slides

[@sharonseal9150]

It was so fun to attend these wonderful lectures in person, and meet so many other geology enthusiasts! I think Bretz would be happy to know that the Spokane Flood story Nick is shining a spotlight on in this series may spark renewed research and lead to a more complete account of the Ice age floods here on the plateau. Thanks for bringing us along for the ride Nick!

[@slurpat7162]

Just finished watching the previous lecture and saw that this one had just posted. Nick, I am not alone in commenting that you are at your absolute best here. As with your solo trips out into the field with phone/camera and maybe a hammer in hand, your erudition and enthusiasm here is infectious. With just a few blackboards, some chalk and some color(when the story, both geologic and human, is by no means a simple one) is simply marvelous. It is no wonder that such a wonderful community has grown up around what you do and who you are. I consider myself blessed that I stumbled upon your channel some years ago, and I have been revisiting it ever since. You rekindled my interest in geology that I developed while reading John McPhee's Annals of the Former World, an author who, like you, not only tells the geologic story, but celebrates the lives and times of the geologists themselves, weaving it all into a story both fascinating and compelling. Kudos to you and all your wonderful contributors and collaborators! I cannot thank you enough.

[@Steviepinhead]

Another high-energy performance. If the audience members were basalt columns, they were plucked and borne away by this performance...!

[@yukigatlin9358]

Boy, you are making my day this evening! Thank you, Nick!!😘💞💗✨

[@rickhosmer5370]

I love these lectures! Thank you, Nick, and everyone involved in exposing and telling these stories.

[@beverlyweber4122]

This held my attention immediately. I know NOTHING about geology....and yet, I am fascinated. Good job!

[@LesHeifner]

Such good work. Bretz, et. al. would be so proud.

[@Vickie-Bligh]

I cannot wait for the next video. With this and the last lecture, so much of what you taught us this past winter is finally solidifying. it's like the information has been in solution in my brain and now you're adding the precipitate and I'm seeing the full picture. To all who just watched these 3 lectures, watch the A-Z series and get the big picture. Thank you, Nick. I like having my mind expanded.

[@rinistephenson5550]

Outstanding! I wish I was 20 again and able to do some of this work!

[@davidpnewton]

Remember that far from all of the work was done by field geologists for these lectures. Unlike the prior A to Z series which saw lots of enthusiasm and inciteful questions from the livestream audience, this one in 2023 to 2024 saw very important audience contributions as well. * Newspapper clippings research * Creation of maps to visualise data * Creation of the Google Earth KMZ files to visualise data * Geolocation of important sites in the historical story * Digitisation of enormous amounts of material in the personal papers collections in multiple archives That is all extremely important for stories like this. It also doesn't require being fit enough to be a field geologist to undertake.

[@patriciasmith7604]

Nick, you're great! This 83 year old who couldn't do math would have loved to be a geologist. It brought tears to my eyes to know folks out there worked to help you out for this presentation. Keep on going as your lecture style is invigorating.

[@pathorgan8643]

Had a blast at this lecture meeting other Zentnerds from all over the map, making new friends. Nick did a wonderful job here tying the winter A to Z series themes and discoveries all together.

[@user-wk1mw9nj3i]

Just plain terrific. Wow. Thanks to Nick and all involved, from Minnesota.

[@barrym4079]

It cant be a mere coincidence that a valley feeds each of the scabland tracts. Hopefully Nicks works spawns another generation of geologists to continue this research. Awesome presentation as always.

[@briane173]

It's _entirely_ plausible and it continues to show that Bretz remains 100 years ahead of the rest of the present-day scientific community in positing the hypothesis. I'm certainly down with the idea, and nothing says the blue floods had to be all that "catastrophic." They could simply have _started_ wearing away loess soils and perhaps the top layer or two of CRBG basalts, and the Missoula floods finished the job using the same channels to make their way out of the Basin and down the Columbia River.

[@lantapaukku7629]

Wow! KZbin just noticed me that new video was published. Sadly it is early morning here at Finnish-Russian border and must hurry to work so I can't watch this yet. 😀

[@Tervicz]

These 3 lectures could be useful at the next local geology conference.

[@deborahferguson1163]

Absolutely awesome!!! Great work putting everything together!!!! Thank you Nick (and other's work)!!!

[@georgerisberg8830]

THIS IS A MASTERPIECE! We owe a ton of gratitude to all who contributed, especially you Nick for connecting all the extensive work from the nineteenth century to today.

[@rowdysgirlalways]

The Spokane Flood story makes perfect sense, especially when one considers the amount of water produced by glaciers. Multiple that by the size and weight of the ice sheets and the Spokane Floods become inevitable. And now we know what to look for, and melting glaciers to point the way, the evidence left on the land is inescapable. Last night's lecture was a delight, tonight's was a revelation. I am certain the last lecture will be equally as satisfying and informative. Nick, you were born for this and I wish I could attend one of your lectures in person. Being in the presence of a natural teacher who knows and loves his subject is the best learning experience of all!

[@kathyjoanderson6430]

Watching this 3x will not be enough! This great stuff keeps me awake at night imagining the scope and power and roar of those floods! J Harlen Bretz, thank you, and thank you Nick Z. for bringing so many of us along in this great adventure!

[@solarwizzo8667]

Rockstar Nick Zentner on stage at his absolute best!!!

[@cymaticssemantics5946]

...including "sorry, Patrick" 🫶

[@datobaggu]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. WOW!

[@eagle8074]

Bravo! How impressive to pull months of material together to educate in such a concise manner. Thanks Nick. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@oscarmedina1303]

I know it is going to be a good day when I turn on my computer and another Nick Zentner presentation appears in my KZbin feed. Great presentation Nick!!!

[@hanuman3527]

Great job! Honestly, when I watched the missoula flood video a year or so ago, I was confused why nobody investigated the pretty obvious (to me) flood channels coming from Canada into WA that seemed unexplained by your lecture. I passed it off and forgot about it. All credit to you for bringing this up.

[@brad6186]

It’s about time Nick! 😂 I’ve been waiting since Sunday morning for this to post!

[@mattcwatkins]

Hey, I was at this one! Red and Blue were the theme.....subglacial & proglacial. Still thinking about what I heard from Nick. Met Skye Cooley after the lecture too and thanked him for the calcrete research.

[@ksea9146]

And I was opining, just a bit earlier today, that it is time for Lecture #2...and here it is! Thank you, Nick. Loved it the first time around, loving the replay too.

[@ZebPalmer]

This lecture cleared up so many of my questions and issues I've had with the Missoula floods story, this view makes so much more sense in my head. thank you!

[@charliesmith4072]

You have done a fantastic job in the history of science!

[@mettenna2635]

Thanks, Nick, for including the new Google Earth map of the blue line of the Spokane ice sheet and it's relationship to existing loess. What an exquisite visual representation of Bretz theory. Way to go, again, Glenn!

[@chiefwrightjohnw1325]

10 minutes Nick? 7:25 to 10:20. You pulled off the Missoula floods story off in less than three!

[@markp.9707]

Awesome work Nice! Watched every episode of Glacial Floods A-Z and this was the cherry on top of the sundae.

[@LoreTunderin]

I was looking forward to this after the Spokane Ice Sheet video. Thank you Mr. Zentner!

[@bearowen5480]

Hey, Nick, another virtuoso performance! Since watching the first "Downtown Ellensburg" lecture, I've been impatiently checking your KZbin icon on my phone several times each day waiting for this second episode to materialize. The suspense has been killing me! "Curiosity, some people say, killed the kitty cat one fine day." Walt Disney, "The Mickey Mouse Club" circa 1958. So it dropped tonight, and boy was it worth the wait! Primed by watching "Glacial Floods, From A to Z" it was whirlwind exciting for me to watch your breathless review of all the high points from the Series, but with many "....This just in" or "Breaking News!" tidbits to further whet the appetite of your spellbound audience, including me! I also caught some subtle but tantalizing hints of even bigger breakthroughs to come, so you left me teetering on the edge of my chair, waiting for another shoe to drop. Masterful style, and all promoting the project of engaging your growing fan club to be authentically excited about a subject, a body of scientific knowledge, that most of us would otherwise have greeted with a shrug or a snore! You're a world class educator and orator, there's no other way to say it! Thank you so much for sharing your gift of knowledge with us so enthusiastically. You're making the world of learning exponentially better. Can't wait for the next installment! Palouse Country Bear, a devoted fan. PS: Bretz's barometric device for determining his elevation at varying survey sites was literally an "aneroid altimeter", a standard and only slightly improved version of which is still equipment required to be mounted in the instrument panel of every licensed aircraft, from the diminutive Piper Cub of 1935, to the most sophisticated modern jetliner that Boeing produces today! Thought you'd like to know. Cheers!

[@hiker1658]

I thought the last lecture couldn't be topped. Wow!

[@catherineleslie-faye4302]

Fantastic Lecture! Wish I could have been there in person.

[@jayolson578]

Again amazing lecture and now everything is being tied together to show a bigger picture. A thru Z, Bretz, and previous lectures are tying most if not all of Washington’s geology for all of us to fully understand. You are a truly great facilitator Nick. Cheers🍻🍻.

[@SteveHarris212]

Great stuff. Thanks Nick, you are in your element

[@runninonempty820]

You are a gifted speaker sir. Wish I could have been there!

[@mbvoelker8448]

I don't know why, but I love the chalkboards. Something about the way you distill information onto them that all the fancy graphics on earth can't match.

[@kban77]

good talk. Mr. Lessemann, tear down this wall

[@marcydobbs1653]

Fascinating information presented so that it accessible to anyone with an inquiring mind. Thank you so much. Chances are I'll never see eastern Washinton, but I am enjoying this journey.

[@vernmeyerotto255]

Been awhile since I've commented, but a nice overview of last winter's work. The Canadian flood trenches channeling sub-ice waters south are an excellent addition to the story, as is the idea of buried coulies in the Spokane region. Plenty of ideas to chew on. Too bad I'm not a young undergraduate instead of an old fart. This could have gotten me quite fired up for a life's worth of work back then.

[@daytonlights-peterwine468]

As I began watching lecture 3, I realized I still had a few minutes of this one left, and so I consider that a bonus for this weekend. Great to have these summaries of the A-Z series, which, I hope, will serve as a gateway to get a generation of geologists interested in this stuff. There's so much yet to learn...

[@michaelgraham6682]

Thank you Nick for sharing and well done to all involved. This is amazing and a great treat to watch. You can feel the energy. Much appreciations

[@joshk.6246]

Nick has not only the charisma wnd ability to relate things easily, he also has such a passion. His lectures wre always amazing. This is one of the good parts of the internet.

[@Valkyrie801]

Excellent presentation. The images, and maps really help understanding these enigmatic topographical Ice-Age landscaping events. Fire & Ice?

[@garythomason5605]

so many pieces of the puzzle

[@Yaxchilan]

wooters!!!!

[@ninarosenstand1649]

Such a thrill to see these first two lectures about Bretz, Nick. You really managed to put together the facts and the threads from the A-Z series and present them in a lecture format, no small feat. Those who would like to dig deeper can watch the entire series, and those who would just like to get a sense of new research based on a celebrated source, Bretz, will get all they need from the lectures. Looking forward to the 3rd evening! We wish we could have been there. Lovely to see the spinning chalkboards...😊

[@tinymetaltrees]

Thanks! 👍 I watched this while polishing slabs of glacial till from the Carrabassett River in Maine.

[@Chazski]

Were there any geologist on staff making notes as the dams on the Columbia river went down to bedrock?

[@TheHillbillyEngineer]

Thanks again! Nick you're awesome!

[@nohandle257]

The great thing about the DGLS is it so perfectly ties the A to Z series all together with a bow on it. Really appreciate this! reed scott

[@mikespangler98]

I'm looking forward to the Moses Coulee discussion. The upper coulee just south of highway 172 is really interesting.

[@paulezycom]

This makes much more sense to me than just the Missoula Flood story.

[@alanrobbo6980]

What if‼️ Brett’s could not find a Volcano, Is it Possible there was an Astroid that Melted vast amounts of flood water, (perhaps even before the Red and Blue Floods)? This would explain so much flooding in such a short time. P.S. I am not a Geologist, just a Thinker 🤔 . PPS. Loved the Lecture 💖

[@jeffbybee5207]

Thankyou for your wonderful videos

[@BLACKDIAMOND-iw7qm]

All throughout college the narrow outlet of lake misoula accounting for incising of the scablands never felt like it added up. I love learning more about this subject and seeing more light shed on this story

[@KSparks80]

Thanks for #2!

[@geoffreynewton5839]

As a complete novice on this topic I would suggest that Bretz’s story of the water coming from under the ice carving the Scablands suggests an event that continued for an extended period, maybe for thousands of years. This would have provided plenty of opportunity for weak spots in the basement rocks to be eroded whereas the concept of massive floods from Lake Missoula lasting only days doing the same work, is less plausible.

[@leestamm3187]

I live in the region and have studied its geology for many years. The idea that slow erosion processes created the scablands is debunked by the observable landscape features that Bretz noted. Examples include the massive debris fans deposited closely downstream from constricted outflow channels of the temporary lakes. The gigantic flush of floodwaters spreading out from these constrictions left miles-wide fields of debris, including vast multitudes of huge, angular boulders spread across flat land surfaces. Other evidential features include the many enormous bars along the flood channels. If one has not actually seen and studied the region and its various landforms, it is difficult to comprehend the scale and erosive power of these floods.

[@johnplong3644]

Something to view when I get done working Yes is review I watch all 26 videos and then some not to mention all the papers Definitely helps me maintain my sanity in this mess up country and world.

[@robertfarrimond3369]

wow Nick! Knocked it out of the park!

[@mr.morelock]

This whole story, and the new data and interpretations have been a total joy to follow this year! I do wonder, though, how much of the Geology Community are being affected by these series, beyond the people shown and mentioned. As a total side note... How hard would it be to get more drilling done on the Astoria Fan? If you could crowd source the funding, could you get the machinery here to do the work? Do we HAVE a drill rig on the West Coast we could dragoon into service? How about the sand bars on dry land? The missing coulees north of Grand? What would it cost?

[@scottowens1535]

Looks like your just getting started and about to rev the engine (🎉🎉) Absolutely lovin it ❤. There's so many potential data points that this seems totally doable with the expertise your guests bring to the table ... it's evolving before my eye's and wow!!

[@davec9244]

thank you

[@skagited9617]

Hey, Nick!! Great lecture vids! I wanted to come over, but I was getting my Sis home from hospital when you released the 'Announcements' vid... but enjoying the 'replays'!!

[@forlornHope]

Cheers 🥃

[@briane173]

1:09:40 - 1:09:46 Indignation is a great motivator.

[@numlockkilla]

Amazing

[@rosscoyates]

I think when you look on google earth the source of the water was up around Vanderhoof B.C. From there some of the water went North but most of it went straight South and flowed into the Gulf of California and out to sea. Nevada and Utah show the lines of the erosion

[@JackMorningstar-nm8gc]

Watching

[@amacuro]

Can someone please clarify why Nick is saying "older = bigger, younger = smaller" when I remember him admitting to Jerome Lesseman that maybe he shouldn't say that anymore? I just remember Nick not being able to defend that statement when Jerome was mentioning the issue to him. Was there some subsequent lecture where Nick found solid evidence for the statement that I missed?

[@bensturges7412]

Were there upwards of 40 Missoula Floods or did that count include Spokane Floods or are there many more Spokane Floods yet to be documented?

[@lethaleefox6017]

Has exposure dating been done on coulee walls, or is that possible to do...?

[@SCW1060]

I just love Brian Atwater

[@washingtonzoom2618]

LETS GOOOO

[@jaymerjaymer]

I’m only 20 minutes in, but I have this question. Considering the north south trenches, how could water be flowing underneath the ice. Wouldn’t the lower parts of the ice want to stay more frozen than the top part of the ice hundreds of feet higher? On the surface, it just seems hard for me to believe that water is running under the ice. Maybe that’s how it (ice) works, I don’t know. The trench would be full of compacted hard ice. So water flowing would just back up way north in Canada and create a lake until it overflowed and then streams of water would cut into the ice from the top down? No?

[@jonathanblubaugh5049]

😜Sorry, Patrick!😂

[@geraldmills7884]

Great lecture! I have yet to hear a good explanation of what created the Columbia River Gorge in the first place. We know the Missoula floods flowed through there, but did they create it? Or was it something earlier?

[@ggtgp]

Publish or perish incentivize attacking good theories, and journals will humor such as such discussions to allow both sides to polish their theories, and promote the better work.

[@sean_b_drummer]

If the Wallula Gap was roughly the same size for both flood cycles, doesn't it stand to reason that the flow rate out of the gap would be roughly the same regardless of how much water was waiting to get through? Therefore, one wouldn't expect to see much, if any, Spokane Flood remnants in The Gorge.

[@brainspatula]

I dig this dude

[@johnnash5118]

Randall Carlson among others have attempted to discredit a 2,000’ Lake Missoula. It’s a sound argument that ice cannot bear the undermining water pressure to impound anything close to the evident lake rhythmites. I defend the dam hypothesis through another process that should’ve been included in their analysis- Glacial moraines consisting of house-sized boulders to gravels. I have pointed out to RC and other doubters that the likeliest impoundment was primarily rock, not ice. A 2,000’ thick glacier field of multiple fingers of glaciers converging at or near the Clark fork river and continuing downstream, leaving an equally thick lateral moraine 2,000’ thick and even more broad; that my friends is the matrix that fully withstood the water pressure temporarily. Wallowa Lake, OR. Is surrounded by 700-800’ glacial moraines above the 300’ deep lake, which was once a thousand foot thick glacier and 10 miles long. Now consider that the Purcell Lobe near the Clark Fork river was an order of magnitude larger than the Wallowa Pleistocene Hurwall glacier and a 2,000’ moraine in that glacier field should be expected.

[@Bitterrootbackroads]

Uniformitarians, Catastrophists, & Generalists! I give RC credit, starting with his old VCR classroom talks, for helping me make sense of landscapes here in MN, and he was the first one to reassure me it was OK to “question the science”. And, Nobody is a bigger fan of Bretz than Randall! The Younger Dryas was real, an impact hypothesis interesting. RC connecting it & it’s related events to Scabland floods, as Nick pointed out long ago when asked, has a major time gap problem I can’t get past. I still admire the guy, even though he seems to be grasping at straws lately. If he and Nick agreed to stick to common ground, in a podcast or something, I would be #1 to watch. “WHERE DID the ENERGY COME FROM” to melt enough ice to create any of these floods? It seems like a question people have been asking, from before Bretz, right up to Nick and his current allies. A couple Generalists discussing the basics would be interesting.

[@johnnash5118]

@@Bitterrootbackroads I like and admire RC and his partners; Randall’s bolide theory is intriguing, but if it did indeed happen, the enormous energy would be more kinetic than thermal, only lasting minutes at most- not much of a melter, much like blowing up a frozen lake with dynamite; lots of ice fragments blown out, but scattered and still frozen in the arctic environment. The required volume of water would have to preexist and be released (not created) by impact of the impoundment, either subglacial (Lake Vostok, Antarctica is @1300 cubic miles in volume) or a glacial lake (Lake Missoula had @500 cubic mile volume.) A bulls eye impact could obliterate a basin’s dam and catastrophically release the impounded water. RC’s enthusiasm and critical thinking is entertaining.

[@jamemswright3044]

Can a 2000' deep dam be made of glacial till? Can you build a concrete dam in that location? Is the bedrock adequately solid to withstand the pressure without artificial grouting?

[@johnnash5118]

@@jamemswright3044 ​ You're thinking in a human perspective by picturing a man-made style dam relatively linear and efficient, and your questions show exactly how the dam failed, they don't disprove how the dam was formed. The dam survivability would have depended on how wide the base was, the bottom consistency containing binding clay-silt under pressure and how long it took to fill the lake to failure. Obviously there was a physical time-mass limitation, which supports my point- a glacial moraine dam proves the mechanics of multiple failures and rebuilds. The Southern margin of the Purcell Trench lobe of the Cordilleran ice sheet was @30 miles wide and a mile thick just North of the Clark fork river drainage and many alpine glaciers flowed into the drainage. The Western glaciers terminated @Lake Pend Oreille, forming sweeping arcs into and down the Clark Fork canyon, thus making the dam base miles long and as it slowly receded through time down stream, it would've had a base a mile thick. I agree that there would need to be man-made grouting in critical bedrock points, but that would be to lengthen the lifespan of the dam indefinitely, which I never proposed.

[@jamemswright3044]

@@johnnash5118 Some more questions. What is the pressure created by a 2000' foot deep column of water? Can compacted CLAY withstand this pressure for hours or days? How long would the dam have taken to fill? Weeks, years or decades? How did the dam continue to reform multiple times? If the bedrock was not grouted, why was the dam not undermined within weeks?

[@sunbird7349]

Gripping stuff,,well done

[@SCW1060]

This is very possible, the iceage didn't happen over night it took millions of years to do what it did

[@inqwit1]

Wicked

[@graysonchip]

not first. second. @Yaxchilan you wizard

[@lauram9478]

❤❤❤

[@robbarton7972]

Could the coulee's be much older than 0.15Ma older than 1Ma?

[@Bitterrootbackroads]

My geologic education in school, was long enough ago that ice age floods & Lake Missoula were kinda fringe. 10 minutes with Google Earth does a better job. Everyone is still looking for the source of all that water. Question- does volcanic activity on a scale that left us the Columbia Basalts, ever encounter a geologic layer on its way up from the depths, that totally prevents its escape at the surface? Could it get close enough to cause massive ice melting yet leave no surface evidence?

[@joeleoleo]

Has anyone started a geology scholarship for Patrick yet?

[@janetcollins1129]

hook...line...sinker :)

[@brettschrom3463]

Thought, are the potmarks evidence of sub-glacial flow or major current or base of waterfalls.... hmm

[@chloehennessey6813]

Mr Z I drive a Prius when I’m at my dads. Conversely, when at moms she refuses to let me drive such “a small under powered pile of crap”. Lol 100% think it’s usually the other way around?

[@LagmasterB]

Big man to admit that he was inaccurate