May December and the Melodrama of Film Twitter

[@ana-morgana]

As the author Terry Pratchett said "the opposite of funny isn't serious. The opposite of funny is not funny"

[@castroski7]

Unrelated but i relate with this: the opposite of rationality is not sentimentality, its irrationality

[@efoxkitsune9493]

Damn I love this

[@bennyton2560]

@@castroski7 preach

[@the_fressno]

Melodrama is the third studio record of the New Zealand artist Lorde obviously Edit: thanks for the 1k, my first in KZbin. For those asking, yes I'm counting the EP

[@luizag123]

This is actually incredibly relevant since the theme of the album is the drama of it all lmao

[@IsSarahPi]

second record, unless you count her EPs

[@ComfortablyPlump]

*second

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

Great album to listen to on Molly.

[@chasebarber10]

Liabilities strutted fr

[@ActuallyAnanya]

I think the compulsion to distinguish between melodrama and camp is such a deeply Western one. As someone who grew up with early 2000s Bollywood, both can co-exist, including when tackling very serious topics. Kal Ho Na Ho is about a man with a terminal illness concealing this from his loved ones, and it has the entire Pretty Woman song sequence, while also innately referencing a 70s Bollywood classic (Anand). There are a number of works from Sanjay Leela Bhansali, outright melodramatic, but occasionally veering into naive (and sometimes knowing) camp. K3G is about a son being disowned for marrying outside class expectations, and features perhaps the most iconic camp character in all of Bollywood within the main cast. And of course there is Om Shanti Om, a film which manages to be a melodrama, a comedy, camp, satire, and a love letter to Bollywood all at the same time. I've felt it more as years have gone by and Hollywood cinema has become more corporate and oligopolised, as movies are optimised more and more for money rather than emotional impact, that the audience refuses to feel authentically. Everything is ironic, or "above" melodrama. Detachment and apathy are preferable to the discomfort from seeing the ugliness of extreme emotion. I notice this sometimes in myself, too, and it frightens me. It's sad. Let yourself feel, people! Bring the naivety Susan Sontag spoke about.

[@crys_cornflakez]

This may be slightly unrelated but I’ve wanted to watch more Bollywood but I don’t know where to start!!! I watched DDLJ and LOOOOVED IT!!!!! do you have any recommendations??? Thank you haha

[@fatimawajid4011]

@@crys_cornflakezi’m not op but: jab we met, om shaanti om, kabhi khushi kabhi ghan, dil chahta hai, devdas, ramleela, tare zameen par, 3 idiots, band baaja baraat, piku, zindagi na mile gi dobara, wake up sid, swades, queen, highway. There’s probably a lot i’m missing but these are off the top of my head. I think jab we met is a great intro cuz it’s a romcom and smth like om shanti om is best enjoyed when you’ve seen other bollywood films. Bollywood is only a fraction of indian cinema btw and doesn’t cover tamil, telugu and malayam films. there’s also films by the great Satyajit Ray whose work is timeless.

[@ActuallyAnanya]

@@crys_cornflakez I echo the other commenter in saying Jab We Met is a great entry point. KZbin is usually fussy about links in the comment section, but basically if you look up ananyaya on letterboxd, I have a list of my faves from Bollywood on there which you can peruse and choose what you want to see. If you liked DDLJ specifically then yes, you'll probably like Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham or Kuch Kuch Hota Hai (both 90s/early 2000s classics starring SRK), and maybe Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi (same director as DDLJ, also starring SRK). As the other commenter said, do not watch Om Shanti Om until you're more into Bollywood already, it'd be like watching Endgame without having watched any other MCU movies. I would recommend the director's other work, Main Hoon Na, which is a fun time and also stars SRK.

[@susknot4596]

You drew a connection that I always think about!!! I feel like a lot of times we do not think about the interdisciplinary nature of “genre” in art. Also nice to see the iconic Hindi references.

[@georgiajones5455]

You’ve said it all perfectly, I couldn’t help but think the same (especially about Om Shanti Om which is my favorite film of all time) 🩷

[@libertines24]

Seeing the reaction of May December on film twitter has made me realize way too many people think they have a knowledge or even historical context of cinema and it’s history. I really think people need to be comfortable hearing/understanding people’s interpretations of art.

[@dariosaenz940]

Agreed, and I also realize that twitter in itself is a problem , people can just spout any nonsense without any fact checking or research behind.

[@l.josino]

@@dariosaenz940 not a twitter user, but the root of it seems so much to be the human propensity to run with any bullshit that's all decorated to grab their attention. people love to hold onto generalizations in the form of "witty" one liners and that gains traction incredibly fast with social media.

[@ogto]

I can be heartbroken by Joe's plight, whilst also finding the use of the The Go-Between's ridiculous score absolutely HILARIOUS. You can have both.

[@elle1107]

It's almost like we as humans contain multitudes! It's fun to have fun

[@heysatan8]

I only recall laughing at two things. When Joe smokes pot with his son and says "I can't tell if we're connecting or if I'm creating a bad memory for you in real time, but I can't help it." It's hilarious to me b/c it really does sound like something someone would say while being stoned for the first time. But it's an amazing scene b/c what he's saying is also heartbreaking. It's incredible to me how that scene is both hilarious and heartbreaking AT THE SAME TIME. Just wow. The other thing that made me laugh is when Portman says the child actors aren't sexy enough and the director's hilarious response is "you need to come home." LOL. It's funny and also a little jab at method acting.

[@beemayhemful]

I thought Portman’s writhing reenactment on the pet store back room floor, both solo and on the film’s movie screen, were both appallingly funny, too

[@QuaseVingativa]

Unrelated to the actual topic: can we talk about the irony of Wilmer Valderrama, known dater of minors, of all people announcing this movie was nominated for the Golden Globes?

[@theprimordialoohs]

Right?!?! I was like, wait . . . is that 😳😳😳

[@C-uz8md]

Fully agree with the tweet that people who saw May December in theaters would think it’s a satire/comedy and people who streamed would see it as a drama. I saw it in theaters and thought stuff like the score and the pet shop scene was obviously supposed to be discordant and funny, the people I know who watched it alone at home took it deadly seriously. Not sure how that plays into the camp/melodrama debate but it’s an interesting difference.

[@zucchinigreen]

I saw it as tragic and clearly a dig at method acting lol, so I guess funny and sad.

[@boomer3243]

Good point. I saw it at home and definitely viewed it as a drama. Didn't laugh at all. Was so confused when I heard it being called a comedy. Interesting connection.

[@RogueWarbird118TFPF]

Wonder if that's a thing about the collective experience bringing layers/different perspective versus the solo experience?

[@JesseEko]

I watched it at home and saw it as a drama. People in theatres may have laugh because of the embarassment of discorvering some of the scenes in a public setting

[@shaniceabdou910]

@@JesseEko no the movie just had funny scenes,, people know the difference btw laughing out of discomfort and amusment

[@originaozz]

I think May December have funny scenes, but still find it jarring to categorized the film as a comedy first. A satire, melodrama, or camp maybe. The film's comedy never makes light of Joe's pain though, it always point towards the predators in his life. To me that is more powerful than seeing only the devastating sides of the situation as it showcase the dissonance between who they think they are and who they really are.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

I mean, most media doesn't really focus on the pain of victims enough

[@VicenteTorresAliasVits]

But a satire is mainly a comedy by definition, right?

[@staceyann1180]

hmmm.. Nobody seems to have a problem calling Mommie Dearest "campy". Although it also deals with abuse of children, it's practically impossible to describe Mommie Deareat without calling it camp!

[@yaya-mk3nn]

right….. showgirls also jumps to mind. i don’t think anybody would argue that people who find showgirls campy or funny don’t take sexual violence seriously.

[@thatlycantomboy]

thank you! literally during the intro i was like “wait, but the only reason i even know what camp even *is* is because of ‘no more wire hangers’”

[@mjewrites]

see with Mommie Dearest, i always got the feeling they were unintentionally campy. I think they went in trying to make a 'serious' film but everything was just a little bit off, making it unsettlingly funny. it became a camp classic because people watched it for how bad it was. that being said, there is also no problem intentionally making a campy film about dark subject matter because art is subjective.

[@Tvkcqddd]

OMG THANK YOU!!! I was literally thinking about this the whole time

[@ttintagel]

I've found that Mommie Dearest and The Shining are a good test to see whether or not someone grew up in an abusive home. If they didn't, they'll call them funny, campy, over the top, or unrealistic. People who did will see their own reality on the screen.

[@natbatrat-d7e]

not done with the video yet, but i just wanted to add a weird realization i’ve had the other day. growing up in latin america and seeing my grandma watch telenovelas, only to see satires airing on tv and in jokes among my family. that taught me early on that melodrama is not to be taken seriously, that it’s impossible to do so. HOWEVER, i’ve recently watched the entirety of twin peaks and i was shocked at how melodramatic it was! all my life, i’ve heard everyone praising this show as an absolute masterpiece, and now i understand how much it feels like the things i’ve grown up making fun of! i was so torn and it’s still difficult for me to grasp how amazing both twin peaks and may december are. im so stuck with those preconceived notions of mine that watching both projects feels really uncomfortable. but i guess… that’s the point?

[@kilgore_trout_37]

Ohhh Twin Peaks is a great example of melodrama! I also grew up watching my grandmas novelas. ❤

[@silverkyre]

I grew up watching them too and as a result I really love some of them now. Some are good some are bad. But there's a lot earnestness in some. And a lot interesting things. I appreciate them now in a way I didn't when I was younger

[@kateyaya]

Twin peaks!

[@captainhardon]

Watch a Douglas sirk film or one of Minneli's melodramas. Melodramas are some of the most emotionally complex films Hollywood has ever made. Fuck watch fassbinder. They are to be taken seriously.

[@evab521]

That's the whole point of twin peaks! Lynch wanted to make a melodrama, but with a twist:) he and Frost, who worked on a melodrama before, used many tropes but put them on their head, made them distinct and put elements of many other genres in to create a masterpiece which is Twin Peaks❤

[@TheGallicWitch]

I remember going to watch Carol when it came out. I was 17, studying in university and all I knew about it was that it starred Cate Blanchett who was my favourite actress at the time and that it was gay. So I went to the movies and I sat in this enormous room, in the perfect centre seat. I was alone with an elderly couple and two 20-something. They left less than 20 minutes into the movie, leaving just me and the old couple, one row behind me. Listening to them talk before it began clearly showed that the couple didn't know what the film was about, like me, except they didn't know about the gay stuff either. I was there for the gay stuff, so I was a bit concerned at their reaction. But they had none, except for when I heard the old woman crying towards the end of the movie when things got tragic, just like I was crying. I think this is the only movie that could reasonably be called melodrama I've ever watched. I'm not from the US so all these 50's movies you've mentioned here were absent from my culture and our 50's movies had a very different tone to them. But I never forgot Carol, despite seeing it only one. It made a lasting impact, emotionally. Because I couldn't tell you two sentences about the plot now.

[@Karamazov9]

I remember reading something where Zizek said that the difference between tragedy and melodrama was that a tragic figure knows too little and a melodramatic figure knows too much

[@a.d.8827]

What does that mean? Genuinely asking

[@oscarinterprises]

@@a.d.8827 Perhaps that tragedies occur to the naive, perhaps by “fate,” before getting a chance to change it, whereas melodramas are about characters losing their naïveté and realizing the shit show they are surrounding by and then, in their heightened emotion, desperately try to get out of it. But I wonder what others have to say of this question

[@Karamazov9]

@@a.d.8827 like Oedipus’ tragedy comes about from the fact that he doesn’t know that Laius and Jocasta were his parents, whereas Hamlet’s melodrama comes from the fact that he knows who killed his father and what he must do but he can’t bear to do it

[@trinaq]

I liked that not everything was tied up in a neat little bow at the end. Joe has come to terms with the fact that he was groomed by Gracie, and it's unlikely that their marriage will survive, since it was already fractured severely.

[@rachellarimer1236]

The humor went over my head 100% watched it at home and only felt disgusted.

[@Lauren-fp9qn]

I didn't even realize it was supposed to be a comedy until I saw this video tbh

[@kelliaustin5773]

The funniest thing about this movie is the dramatic piano song.

[@eviehnt]

fr i was so confused when i went on letterboxd and everyone was talking about the comedy, like…

[@d48731]

Some people just aren't smart or funny, it's ok

[@tananario23]

@@d48731And ttedious.

[@Roseforthethorns]

For me, the humor came in some ways from the sheer discomfort of sitting in this scenario, and sometimes it felt like deliberate little moments to give the audience brief moments to breathe, even if for a short moment. I really enjoyed this movie. I’m still thinking about it. The performances are electrifying. The directing is top tier. The SYMBOLISM is just amazing.

[@Roseforthethorns]

Like, Gracie saying, “I don’t think we have enough hot dogs,” followed by the jump cut to the grill with SO MANY HOY DOGS had me giggling before I even realized it.

[@gauravmishra1428]

@@Roseforthethorns yeah and the still smokey scene too

[@quenepacrossing4675]

I haven’t seen May December, but i have seen Mommy Dearest, one of the most notable films of camp cinema. MD is in no small part about child abuse and mental illness, and yet it is still considered camp. A delicate subject and serious intention does not a serious movie make.

[@gjh9299]

its the performances, may December have subtle performances except for Julianne Moores manipulative behavior

[@chrisinthe305]

What ever happened to the category of dark or black comedy. That’s how I viewed it. Tragic yet hysterical.

[@Alexander_Stern1]

I don’t think I had ever heard of “camp” and “melodrama” as being mutually exclusive before seeing this video. I mean, how often have we seen melodrama used as a delivery mechanism for camp? What is “Whatever Happened to Baby Jane” if it isn’t melodrama? How about “The Room”? Or, as mentioned in this video, “Showgirls”? They’re all campy (intentionally or not) and they all employ melodrama! As for, “It’s not camp if it’s intentional”: The ‘60’s “Batman” (which also employs melodramatic elements) and “Twin Peaks” are both examples of shows that are intentionally campy. If camp isn’t self-aware, I don’t know what qualifies as “camp” apart from Ed Wood movies.

[@maximilianel5249]

I really like the movie. Watching this video very much validates my feeling of regret over not seeing it in theaters. After May December was over I felt very alone with the visceral experience of watching the film as a Drama. Every single scene you singled out as being humorous made me cringe and in turn sink deeper into a weird state of displeasure and disgust, which in turn also deepened my sympathy for Joe. I can confidently say that the humor went over my head, but the film still left a mark on me, in a positive sense. Maybe experiencing it with a crowd, those comedic moments would’ve felt less serious to me.

[@isaacthomas6544]

Same experience here. I had no clue it was a comedy until I went to go log it on Letterboxd. I really enjoyed the film and thought it was brilliant, but it didn't occur to me to think it was funny. I think growing up around a shit ton of dysfunctional Americans protestants didn't really help matters because they behave so much like what was shown in that film, so it didn't feel funny to me as much as it did an actual depiction of people I know.

[@katie-ty1mn]

Yeah totally agree with this, this was how I felt too watching it at home

[@efoxkitsune9493]

You worded that beautifully, thanks for that! I had a very similar experience, watching it alone at home. The movie hit me hard and definitely made a big impact, I'd consider it among my top 5 movies of the year. But I also watched it as a drama and many of the scenes left me feeling very uncomfortable (in a good way!), almost voyeuristic, rather than amused. I mean, sure there were some genuinly funny little moments, but to me, they were more things I slightly chuckled at rather than something that would make me genuinly laugh out loud. (Though, the character of Elizabeth was clearly kind of ridiculous - her over the top "performance" / immitation of Gracie, etc... but again, not laugh-out-loud funny to me, more of a critique). Excited to rewatch it with this new lens, I wonder if my experience of the movie will change at all.

[@smarterperson16]

I haven't watched the movie yet, so there's a lot I can't say on that front, but I do think so many ppl on film Twitter care more about looking self righteous and getting those 15 minutes than liking movies tbh. That attitude made me distance myself from LB for a long long time, lol. On topic, Charles Melton possibly winning an Oscar months after Riverdale ended is gonna be so funny. The equivalent of seeing your ex move on with a Nobel prize winning neurosurgeon, lol.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

Twitter invading lb was a gut punch that was felt.

[@remytherat2929]

@@kostajovanovic3711 sorry I’m a little dumb what’s “lb”?

[@aisyahraihana3719]

@@remytherat2929Letterboxd

[@kostajovanovic3711]

@@remytherat2929 letterbox, an social media app about movies

[@smarterperson16]

@@remytherat2929 letterboxd!

[@mariaisabelad]

I really appreciate your breakdown of May December. I admit that I was taken aback to see people call it a full blown comedy after my first watch, but I did think it was full of stylistic elements that pulled from different genres. It's not a straightforward drama, comedy or even a thriller, but it can feel like any of those from one scene to another. It's playing with form to take what could have otherwise been a harrowing, exploitative recollection of real-life abuse and turning it into am exploration of true crime as a form of tragic voyeurism.

[@LostCommenter7]

May December is the film of the year. The layers of the core 3 performances and critique of the 'ripped from the headlines' stories. There is certainly camp in May December just as there is tragedy in it. Like the final scene with Elizabeth trying so hard to affect Gracie's lisp and demeanor is like SO CAMP. I think some people are blinded by moments that are painful to watch, like Joe's monologue or Elizabeth using him. It's a film built on nuance and twitter has never had it. Really enjoyed this video, gonna check out some of the 'women's pictures/melodramas' you referenced.

[@mollyross888]

she’s not that kind of snake 🐍🐍🐍

[@Tvkcqddd]

I can’t understand how people don’t get how powerful of a tool comedy can be in dramatic stories, regardless of how bleak the topic is. Two Billboards doesn’t go into camp territory but does a terrific job at using comedy on both breaking the tension for the audience, so we just don’t feel terrible the entire goddamn movie; and to show how nihilistic people in very hopeless situations can cope with their own traumas. Comedy is what truly humanizes characters because it gives them more perspective and complexity than just suffering through life and bawling their eyes out.

[@valerius88]

Ugh, we need to shelve the words "Right" and "Wrong" until we know how to use them.

[@Datjewboi]

You didn’t laugh when Gracie mentioned that her mom once made a blueberry cobbler recipe as a way to one up Elizabeth bragging about her parents? That was my personal favorite

[@Isabelle-hv6ny]

That was so weird xF

[@Lindsayshmoshman]

I really liked this movie! Having lived through the whole MKL scandal, I had ALWAYS thought she was manipulating everyone. I could never understand (nor do I want to, honestly) why Villi stayed with her after he was grown. But he was broken by a broken person. I’ve always hoped their girls have good lives, and I hope Villi gets to finally live his! Love your channel! Happy holidays ❤

[@justine4581]

It's upsetting seeing so many people legitimately angry about other people's way of interpreting/ watching a movie and saying they are fundamentally bad people because of this?? I'm also sure that the creator of the bloody film agreed to have it placed in the comedy category for the golden globe, if it was such a massive issue in regards to the themes of the movie, the creator would've done/said something no? Movies don't have feelings, discussing what you personally see it as isn't hurting it, but people do have feelings, and people discussing movies in ways you don't see is a good way to share viewpoints, not a good way to treat your fellow human beings as though they are fundamentally beneath you.

[@JaesadaSrisuk]

I know that I’m going to sound like the average disgruntled boomer cliché, but there’s something to be said about how the youngest generations seem to have a difficult time grasping nuance, and many seemingly progressive often have oddly regressive views that they defend with McCarthyesque vigor.

[@syntheticsilkwood2206]

​@@JaesadaSrisukI completely agree

[@kostajovanovic3711]

​@@JaesadaSrisukTwitter does that to you...

[@hikariluanGC]

@@JaesadaSrisuk I could not have said it any better.

[@amethystdream8251]

Yeah what is up with so many people wanting to treat others as though they are beneath them? Where did they even learn that was a good idea?

[@isaacthomas6544]

I just watched this movie two days ago and felt confused when I looked it up and saw it was labeled as a comedy. I definitely got the satirical undertones of it -- like the ending reminded me a lot of Tar -- and I don't even disagree with calling it camp (although I don't feel so inclined to call it that, but I do feel that melodrama is an accurate label) but I personally had a hard time detaching from the characters, I guess? Obviously this story is based on a real-life event but Gracie didn't seem that camp to me because I know people just like her in real life. It made me think of a lot of my own past experiences with similar instances of abuse and it felt like a very real and sensitive depiction of a lot of ethical and emotional implications that I've struggled with getting my head around for years. So my sort of knee-jerk reaction against people calling it camp is just that a lot of them (not everyone, just that certain Letterboxd crowd) seem so flippant about the content material when I think there is just as much to take seriously from it, which the more comedic elements only serve to reinforce. I don't think it helps that I had some like really serious personal shit happen while I was watching the movie so I wasn't in a very light-hearted mood I guess, lol.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Yeah I'll admit that I took this film super seriously and I think that's where people are having the issue. Whatever comedic elements that occurred were fleeting compared to the overall dark subject matter and tragedy. That's what engrossed me anyway.

[@soniaiboyako4023]

I think that's more than fair. Not really going to get into it but this reminds me of the way people talk about Succession when they recommend it to others.. I also think this might have to do with people seemingly getting more and more embarrassed at taking things seriously or being earnest about anything, idk

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

Well, yeah, child rape IS a very dark subject!

[@idrees1995]

@@ElizabethMcCormick-s2nbut its a comedy(!)

[@soniaiboyako4023]

@K.C-2049 Oh i agree, the show itself does a great job at hitting those beats - be they hilarious, funny from discomfort or plain absurd. I was more-so talking about the audience's way of talking about it. From what i've seen and heard the show tends to be presented as more of a comedy than anything else and i have to say.. that irks me lmao Again, are there comedy elements to it? Yes! Does it get laughs out of you? Definitely! But i've seen it be recommended in ways that suggest there's nothing really that serious about its content, in ways that prime people for laughing at pretty much every single thing that transpires (when they otherwise wouldn't, had they not gone into it thinking it's basically a luxurious The Office) - and this is without getting into the whole "if you feel for these characters you missed the point!" discourse... I have a lot to say about the way people talk about Succession tbh, but yeah the show itself does strike a fairly nice balance

[@JH-yj7kk]

I mean, I have met multiple people who think that American Psycho was a bleak horror and not a dark satirical comedy and have expressed disgust that anyone would think it was funny.

[@CPTDoom]

I was explaining the film to some friends and said "it's funny in the same way my Irish-American mother's stories about her brother with Downs Syndrome were funny," i.e., it's a way to deal with pain through laughter. I also said it reminded me of Gothic horror, with a couple living in the big mansion, trapped in a deeply unhealthy psychosexual relationship, are disturbed by an outsider. Joe's perspective, of course, is never satirized or ridiculed, but the way Haynes approaches that character's truths almost gives the viewer an emotional cushion - we laugh through the absurdity and artifice of the Gracie/Elizabeth dynamic, but that gives us the endorphin level to not be destroyed when we fully see Joe's damage. When I first saw the film (three watches so far), I thought Haynes deliberately put Natalie Portman in a comedy about a bad actress, Julieanne Moore in a melodrama about a deeply disturbed woman and Charles Melton in a absolutely honest drama about trauma, much like Lana Turner is in a ridiculous rags-to-stardom melodrama in "Imitation of Life," but the story of Annie, Sara Jane and the pain of passing is dealt with sans irony or satire.

[@janetrotimi773]

I completely agree, because of course the situation is gross and in no way did the movie suggest that particular thing was funny. The dynamic between the two leading actresses is what was ironic and therefore ‘funny’ in that sense.

[@kilgore_trout_37]

*Theater nerd tangent*- I’m only a little shocked that we define melodrama so differently! It makes sense that it the genre would change when it jumped to the screen, and that it would continue to evolve, but melodrama in theater is a little trapped in amber, and I love it. Someone once gave me the shorthand of “a show where you cheer for the good guys and boo and hiss at the villains” and I don’t think anything has ever been distilled so well. As a fellow pretentious person I scoffed at this lowbrow theater when I was younger. I derided the local dinner theater that sells out nearly every show all year round. Now I’m in my early 40’s and I couldn’t think of anything more charming. I see why we’ve held on to it in this unchanged state, with mustache twirling bad guys, swashbucklers, gunfighters, and a beautiful damsel or two.

[@mystery1317]

So what I'm getting from this is that more people need to be introduced to the concept of 'tragicomedy'? Seriously, the presence of laughter/satire/parody or other funny elements does not cancel out the potential tragedy of a story and it concerns me that so many people seem to think it does. We talked about Brecht, but let's bring someone like Samuel Beckett into the conversation. Tying it to Peter Brook's idea of melodrama trying to make sense of a world where there wasn't much left, the theatre of the absurd did a similar thing post WW2. And boy is Beckett good at making you laugh all the while being painfully aware of the horror and tragedy the characters are living through. But at the end of the day, it was twitter where this mess started and I no longer set myself up for disappointment by expecting nuance from twitter!

[@wingslovedvalkria]

I feel like people are confusing something having comedic moments for it being a comedy like a clockwork orange has funny moments but it's not classified as a comedy and that's throwing people off.

[@ripwednesdayadams]

Happiness is another good example. That film has hilarious moments but it also has deeply tragic and disturbing scenes. The best movies blend genres, IMO.

[@Keira388216]

now, about the comedy bit let's talk about the opening scene where natalie portman is trying to be sweet and hand them a package in their mail, only to discover it's a box containing literal shit. if that is not funny i sincerely do not understand humour, it got the most spontaneuos and effortless laughter from me of the entire year

[@mjewrites]

the scene where natalie portman tells charles melton "this is what grownups do!" was the perfect moment of comedy with some tragedy underneath. like that line got such a laugh out of me but it was also sinister when you think about it from Joe's perspective.

[@kaitlynm9463]

funny things can happen in dramas…. no genre is exempt from humor. Doesn’t make it a comedy.

[@spiritsfollow4976]

@@mjewritesthis moment, like nearly all the others people have referenced, didn’t strike me as funny at all. Rather, the fact that she was willing to so callously use Joe and push him aside, despite knowing everything he had been through, served to further reveal the hardness at the heart of Elizabeth’s character, similarly to how she had less than zero remorse about having a relationship with her married director (was arguably reveling in the chance to really go for it, with his wife in Italy). This underlying hardness is why she was able to so easily take on Gracie’s perspective, despite its obviously self-serving and immature nature.

[@mrlarvux]

@@mjewritesMaybe her character was trying to be funny with Joe but I don’t think the scene set out to make people watching it laugh.

[@rebecacedeno1856]

It's not funny

[@spiritsfollow4976]

I was surprised to hear that you accepted Gracie’s statement about talking to Georgie all the time at face value. To me, this seemed like an obvious piece of B.S. from a manipulative character who lacks personal insight. To me, it didn’t come across as a “twist” so much as Gracie trying to do damage control about a part of her life that she refuses to acknowledge. And while it doesn’t necessarily relate to the discussion of camp vs. melodrama, I was surprised you didn’t touch more on one of the themes that seemed to me most prominent in the film: that when we seek to “understand” predatory/abusive people, such as in the true crime genre, we run the risk of taking on the worldview of that person and becoming like them ourselves. This was the implication of Elizabeth’s director (not agent, as stated in the video) saying that he thought she needed to come home after her deeply-disturbing comment about the potential 13-year-old actors not being “sexy” enough 🤮.

[@beemini3374]

I also thought Gracie's statement about Georgie, and the implication that the abuse had not happened, was deeply ambiguous. What would she get out of deflating a theory that would make her more sympathetic?

[@melina_0455]

That's a serious detail you drop in the end without any context or explanation. You're just encouraging people to draw their own worst conclusions. Was it that she felt attraction to a 13 year old? Of was she talking as creator who had an artistic vision in mind and knew that it was a matter of which point of view to transcribe on screen?

[@d.o.vitelli5855]

​@@beemini3374 I agree with you. I don't think any interpretation of it is wrong, since it's clear this is purposely ambiguous

[@msnicotiana]

​@@melina_0455bro fuck up and stop playing fake academic, shit is just gross

[@cianmcgrath125]

@@melina_0455 Whether it's Elizbeth's comment on the kid actors, her answer about how sex scenes can actually become sexual rather than just feeling mechanical, the way she behaves in the pet shop or what her and Joe do later in the film, I think the whole thing is greying the boundaries between reality and delusion. Is she attracted to minors? Probably not initially, but her entire goal is to become her character, right? And the film keeps making fun of method acting in this way, as well as how the self-delusion of embodying someone else seems to parallel Gracie's self-delusions in her relationships with pretty much everyone around her. She's thinking like Gracie, she sleeps with Joe, and the final scene is a recreation of a sensual moment. Just like with what she said with regards to sex scenes, the more you do it, the more real it becomes. The last moment in the film is her asking for one more take; you can see in the take before this that she's becoming more invested. It's not as mechanical anymore. It's becoming real; the attraction is slowly entering reality. I think the film wants you to sit in that uncomfortable place between reality and delusion, between what we say we are and what we actually are. It doesn't definitively answer the questions you're asking, but it blurs the lines.

[@MrTwentington]

My friend is a film critic professionally and he made a post on twitter where he called May December camp- along with MEGAN, Barbie and some fourth movie I no longer remember. And he got ROASTED for it. Like… not the villain of the day as it were but I’d never seen so many people call someone a stupid b*tch in so many different ways. Everyone was so creative!

[@VeronicAM313]

Edit: I see you mentioned your viewing vs the Netflix view at 48:15. I still feel the following way. When I was watching May December on Netflix, I didn't laugh. I got disgusted when she pretended to be having sex in the pet store. I saw the movie as two white women taking advantage of a child and then a man of color and telling him as I and others have been told, "You're an adult. You did this." whenever something happens. That we are adults and don't need protection from sexual predators. I remember watching Nancy Grace and there was a Latino child who was sexually molested by his white teacher and Nancy Grace repeated that he looked like an adult and "they're like that." So for me, this was a film that made me angry because it showed like true crime, white people and mostly white women, are able to go into these crimes as if they're fairy tales and they gobble them up and it's messing with me because some of these crime stories involve multiple Black and brown bodies.

[@jhr5754]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. You verbalized exactly what I was thinking but couldn't articulate. Seeing Gracie then Elizabeth use Joe for their own gain was so disgusting. I can see though how highlighting the ridiculousness of their narcissism could've added a comedic element to the film.

[@zucchinigreen]

I watched the film and remembered the scandal. I was the same age as "the kid" when it happened and I remember her face being plastered all over the tabloids with him, but yet I never learned his name, not even all these years later. It made me read a piece on how black and brown bodies are seen as older and suddenly it made given the coverage and the framing and this movie. If that happened to a little white boy, Gracie would have been in the electric chair, no questions asked. I think in watching the film, I got some of the comedic elemements like Gracie & Elizabeth's delulu nature and just the surrealness of it all. But I was mostly sad about Joe and how he was robbed of a childhood so, I think it's melodrama that doesn't make decisions for you, but just presents all the artifice + dark underbelly at the same time. I think Natalie Portman's character Elizabeth was so interesting and like a caricature of the modern white woman. She empathizes with Joe and sees his humanity, but she uses him all the same. I couldn't help but feel that's some meta commentary on how Hollywood and true crime podcasters use real life stories for fodder for their "white-centered main character narratives". Have you seen the real life version of the interview that's referenced in the film? The Australia interview? No part of that woman was mentally well...

[@endresee]

I agree that this movie was deliberately intractable and I appreciate that about it because it has led to great conversations. I did not view it as a comedy despite the hotdog line (genuinely funny) and the other instances pointed out in the vid, which for me ranged from slight-smirk funny to I-didn’t-interpret-that-as-a-joke. Still, the effort of turning this film into a coherent experience has been fascinating and fun.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

It's weird. Like... the idea that this movie has campy elements and comedic elements is something that's basically self-evident but to say they "are" those things does come across as wrong for me because for me those elements were fleeting compared to the sincerity of Joe's whole character and arc. That was so strong for me that everything else kind of got blotted out as the only "real" takeaway. The whole true crime critique is like "yeah, sure, but goddamn does Joe's life suck and Gracie is a fucking monster."

[@Haldered]

exactly, in addition to the fact its based on real people and events (thinly veiled with name changes)

[@Yes_Anastasia]

Exactly! I watched it thinking, “Comedy”? Where, though?

[@mhawang8204]

I don’t have enough knowledge in film history to dissect May December like you. Just want to add that Get Out was also nominated in the Comedy and Musical category. The Golden Globes are always flimsy about their categories to capture the most star power. But also, both May December and Get Out are a little funny so they’re not wrong. I totally agree with you that assigning morality to a reading of a film and dismiss other interpretations is a definite obstacle in media literacy these days.

[@Haldered]

Get Out is satirical horror, as all the best horror movies are. Both drama and comedy can play into the satire. Putting it in either drama or comedy does a disservice to the movie and frankly all movies, there's a reason why the Golden Globes are the only major awards to categorize by such limiting genres, because nobody takes them seriously.

[@BroadwayGuy]

I'm sure you've seen Gus Van Sant's "TO DIE FOR". It sounds very similar to MAY/DECEMBER. It was inspired by the Pamela Smart case. Van Sant uses it as a satire on media obsessed popular culture. The main characters are always seen on cameras, on TV, being interviewed, reflected in mirrors, or things like that. There are very few moments where anyone or anything is real or authentic. The basic storyline is very dark, but it's funny (ironic) as well because Van Sant clearly intends the film to be satirical. I got that immediately.

[@romanroyboytoy]

it's also worth considering to die for's interpretation of an exploitative relationship between a ruthlessly ambitious woman and a group of minors, especially since she has an affair with one of them, so may december is really not the first of its kind regarding a satirical treatment of something as reprehensible as illegal age gaps (also note similarities in van sant and haynes' contributions to new queer cinema, they share a background in a genre infused with camp sensibilities)

[@DavidMichaelCommer]

Your commentary about the policing of intetpretations on Twitter is correct but I also think it's way too limited-because this type of policing seems to me (as a 45-year-old gen Xer) to be both a social media phenomenon and a generational phenomenon. It frustrates me but it's also something I feel I need to adapt to. When I was 19 years old, I was hired to work for an organization that worked with the entertainment industry to encourage and reward accurate, science-based depictions of health and social issues in entertainment instead of 'very special episode' treatments. For example, the character of Carrie in Homeland living with and dramatizing bipolar disorder throughout the run of the series instead of, for example, acting strangely, being diagnosed with bipolar and given a medication all in one episode and then never showing another symptom again, having been 'cured,' as was the way of showing serious issues in the 1980s. Because of my job, I changed my college major to English with a concentration in film and media studies. I went on to get an MFA in creative writing. I found some of my old college papers a couple of years ago, and every paper addressed how women, gay and transgender and people of color were depicted-all what today would be called 'woke' media analysis. At the same time, I studied subtext of writing and filmmaking. I feel like a lot of young people today have been well educated in irresponsible media depictions of marginalized people and are hypervigilant about it but have not been educated whatsoever about the art of subtext, including especially irony and its role in self-conscious cultural criticism, and without this sophisticated nuance (which I think you mean when you say 'media literacy'), they've developed a very reactive, black-and-white, McCarthyist-level worldview. And that feels unsettling. It's one thing to police sincerely offensive portrayals, but it's disturbing when thoughtful writing, performance and direction that are meant to inspire both laughter and deeper consideration are all read as offensive, and when appropriate further consideration is regarded as offensive because the humor is misunderstood. There is absurd humor to be found in a lot of comedy; that's the point of a lot of comedy, in fact. The movie I, TONYA and the TV series ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS are comedies that depend on the audience being willing to witness child abuse and still find comedy in the absurdity of the situations, and that's not necessarily morally excusable but it is defensible by any barely sophisticated audience understanding that by laughing at absurdity, whether wholly invented or based in truth, that does not mean that we would ever support child abuse or neglect in actual life. We don't confuse and conflate real life with fiction, and we are not so unintelligent as to model our morality on absurdist storytelling. It is apart from reality, not to be confused with it. May December's lines are more blurred than that, and I do think that that is something of a challenge to those whose whole realities are defined by the Twitterverse and particularly to young people from generation Z who may sincerely never have been exposed to sophisticated, non-black-and-white moral ambiguity and who have been brought up to police others words, actions and thoughts when they feel they have witnessed a moral transgression. It's strange to me that some young people might watch Mommie Dearest, for example, and not be able to see the glaring absurdity of the filmmaking and performance that have made a tragic story into a camp comedy classic for many, but May December is a lot more sincere than that and its tone is kind of mixed. I do think it is fair to read the movie as a melodrama, even though only some actors appear to have performed with the understanding that the material is somewhat melodramatic. Others are performing realisitically, and that throws the tone a bit off kilter and does beg further exploration. Julianne Moore's performance is heightened beyond any other actor's; when she throws tantrums and some of the zooms suggest she's got a histrionic personality disorder. Some of Natalie Portman's characterization is a little bit heightened but she mainly plays the character straight, more reliant on camera effects to suggest her personality might be a little 'off.' And Charles Melton and the actors who play his kids seem firmly grounded in reality, which makes their existences tragic in the household of always-on-the-edge Moore's character. In a typical melodrama, all the actors' portrayals are heightened, and in camp, the whole world everyone inhabits has facets of absurdity. So this movie has a more complicated style that is harder to deciper and I can understand how young people who have been trained to police everything and everyone for wrongdoing would view the movie in a very black and white way. I would be curious to see how they'd react to a brilliant satire like Network-only with righteous indignation, as if they live within the world of the movie, or would they also recognize the irony built into the storytelling and be able to discuss it with critical objectivity rather than solely as a sincere message about how evil the world and corporations and the media are? I suspect many would not be able to understand anything beyond that. As a person well into middle age who studied film and media and how they construct cultural norms, I find it really interesting today that 25 years ago, my reading of media was seen as hyper-woke before woke was a term, and today, having been educated to see nuance in media, I could be seen in some ways as rejecting sensitive interpretations-which I really do not do, but I'm also aware that there can be a whole lot more to any kind of fictional entertainment than just the social commentaries they may or may not offer. Most comedy is founded in cultural criticism in one way or another, but it is also by definition funny. In my lifetime, it was always a hallmark of political ideologies that more progressive people were better at being funny because they could observe abdurdity, make sincere points about it and also laugh about it, while conservative people were known not to be good at comedy because they took everything so seriously. In my opinion, this holds true of a lot of conservatives but it also has become true of a lot of younger progressives, who refuse to allow themselves to laugh at uncomfortable humor because they feel obligated to condemn anything that may be offensive to anyone. They are unfortunately missing out on some good stress relief, which really is what comedy is meant to to, to defuse some of the most difficult to bear realities so that we can look at them and discuss them without melting down. No one will ever mistake Mommie Dearest or Eddie and Patsy from AbFab as good role models for parents; we can still laugh at them and the absurd ways they behave and the trouble they get themselves into without being bad people.

[@LilacSreya]

.

[@hasnamahmoud9668]

Thank you Broey for opening a locked door in my brain. This movie went totally over my head and now everything makes sense!

[@TimothyCHenderson]

Mozart and Da Ponte's, Cosi fan tutte is a great operatic comparison to how you've described this film. It takes the artifice of a traditional Rococo comedy and turns it on it's head. It's comedic throughout but devastating to the characters involved as the story progresses into the second act in a way that goes beyond pure comedy.

[@laurenblahblah8554]

I don't really care if May December is a comedy or a melodrama or whatever else, but the whole time I was looking at this discourse all I could think about is how no one is really talking about how Joe is based off of a real person who deserves empathy and that a movie that has jokes in it to lighten the mood of the heavy subject of someone's real life experience seems distasteful at best. From my research, I haven't seen anywhere that Vili Fualaau (the inspiration for Joe) gave any approval or collaboration to the film. From what I have seen he seems to be a pretty private person and just think turning his story into this big debate about comedy and melodrama falls into the exact same trap that the film tries to call out about trashy true crime that exploits the individuals at the heart of the story. In my opinion the film is doing that exact thing and so are we by engaging with it. If Vili Fualaau did give his blessing on this and I just haven't seen it, that would change my opinion. Edit: I have now seen that Vili Faulaau has come out saying that he was not consulted and he feels offended by the movie. According to Forbes, the director said it is not Vili's life story and more of a jumping off point for a fictional movie. I think this is absurd considering the look of the characters, the fact Gracie has a lisp similar to Mary Kay Letourneau's real way of speaking, and Moore apparently watching documentaries of Letourneau to get into character. So in my opinion, this movie isn't funny, its disrespectful and so are all the people involved in the film trying to say its not based off Vili's life experience when it very clearly is.

[@cellojerms]

yeah same. i dislike nabokov’s lolita for similar reasons. exploitation with a wink is still exploitation 🤷‍♀️

[@Linee2402]

Finally someone who has a similar opinion as me.. I think the idea is definitely interesting, but while watching I just felt so uncomfortable for the actual person who lived through this. The fact that it’s “loosely based” on a true story makes me think he wasn’t approached at all.

[@laurenblahblah8554]

@user-zi1wi5dl2d I agree with you. I may not have said it well in my post but to me it felt like even though the comedy wasn’t at Joe’s expense it was put in the movie to make Joe’s trauma more palatable and that’s what gives me the ick. I agree this video isn’t the best look which is disappointing and I hope that she can learn from this in the future. It seems like we are in the minority based on other comments so hopefully she will see this and think about this point of view.

[@BryanBMusic]

Good point. I hope they paid him for this.

[@shrek3397]

they did not contact him about it. He called it a "rip off" and said he was offended by it

[@cherrynorthful]

May December may or may not be camp but the movie Elizabeth is making seems like it would be for sure

[@biancachristie]

Thanks, as always, for helping me simultaneously clarify and complicate my thoughts on this movie. I knew from the first viewing it was complex and was going to take multiple rewatches to even begin to dig into it. I also love that it's there on Netflix, a self-proclaimed home of 90s True Crime documentaries. The film is a hall of mirrors, diagetically and non-diagetically. May-December reminded me of two other movies: Todd Field's Little Children, and (especially) Todd Solondz's Happiness. May-December is *much* more subtle, but they feel connected in so many ways, and not just because they include characters who are the P-word. All of the are also drama/satire/melodramas, and they all use different devices to get their humor across. In many ways., I felt prepared for May-December after having seen those other movies, because their themes and settings are so similar: American families, peeling away the layers, transgressions, etc. And the portraits of the p word individuals are complex, humanizing, and funny-. Actually, in many ways, I felt like May-December was an interesting subversion of those other two movies-, as (1) the person in question is a women, (2) we're seeing the "victim" as an adult still in a relationship with the perpetrator, and we're seeing how the monster who did the terrible things has neither been made self-aware (Happiness) or been destroyed by their acts (LIttle Children). If I were still in school, I'd take this up in a longer form. Anyway, if anyone reads this comment, and you haven't seen those other two movies, just go see them. And maybe help me figure out why these particular tonal choices (dark comedy, melodrama, etc.) seem like the right choice for treating this subject matter (distancing the filmmaker from the subject, as in the creator saying "I don't condone this but I want to explore it"? And btw, why did Kubrick choose something similar for Lolita, as problematic as that choice was? He did try to force it through the same mold . . . ) Lots to think about here.

[@isaacthomas6544]

I actually thought of those two movies two, lol -- the Unofficial Todd-Directed P-Word Trilogy, I suppose. Although the ending made me think more of Tar, which is also a Todd Field film. Happiness is always my go-to film for movies that make light of really dark and fucked up topics but does it extremely well and is incredibly funny. I never thought about Little Children as anything outside of a drama but I can see the melodrama angle, but its treatment of its characters and the topics at hand I think are also done similarly to May December. May December explores harder topics more in depth and ultimately better, I think, but Little Children is still a great film. I can't really answer your question yet, though. One of my interests is honestly the depiction of CSA in film after having visceral reactions to certain films about the subject as being very well-done or in poor taste, but I can't easily discern what makes me react in either way. I think I am naturally more inclined to appreciate the films that want to explore the emotional complexities of it and really dislike films that are much more sensationalist about it -- so, for example, Mysterious Skin is always my #1 example for films that address this subject so, so beautifully and with so much sensitivity while I am like the one person who REALLY does not like Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me because I felt it was exploitative and uninterested in actually exploring the subject. In its place, we get a movie that is sensationalist and dwells in the suffering of its protagonist. But like nobody agrees with me on this so idk 😭

[@dotnothing5620]

It's such a lovely day when Broey Deschanel uploads. Thanks for being you friends!

[@lizbethbarnes]

Camp or Melodrama?? 👁️👄👁️ I watched the whole thing w a straight face and thought it was the best movie Netflix had made in a minute I- 😩😭

[@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose]

Oh yes, I've been waiting for this! I've witnessed a slice of the drama on Twitter (which includes me re-tweeting Broey's statements) and I'm excited to get a true breakdown of the camp/melodrama discourse.

[@LateCambrian]

This movie is in my Top 5 for the year. People who scold about what's funny are addicted to grafting themselves onto someone else's victimhood...

[@angelica5709]

I'm not saying that you're wrong by any means!! But what do u mean exactly? I feel like I get it, but not completely...

[@LateCambrian]

@@angelica5709 Hey, I mean that in humanity's unending search for internet identity and validation, some people have chosen to get validation through virtue signaling via knee-jerk reactions to what they think a movie is about. Some of the people complaining about the movie's subject matter haven't seen the movie at all. They don't have the media literacy to see something like May December as anything but exploitation of a story, not seeing that the movie is ABOUT exploitation, through the Natalie Portman character and through the Julieanne Moore character. It's like a battle of the sociopaths, with Charles Melton as the unwitting victim. It can be validating to go on a crusade for something and get the 'likes' for the 'moral stance', while totally misinterpreting the movie's themes and point of view. Sorry if this is long winded, I'm working out what I mean as I write LOL.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

What has twiXtter done to this film.....o​@@LateCambrian

[@mjjjermaine]

The movie was amazing, but I’m not sure I’d go as far to say that critics of its categorization are all acting as you’re describing. That feels as flattening as the social media comments.

[@LateCambrian]

@@mjjjermaine not all of them, some of them. I kind of expand on it in my second comment...

[@raphaelmarquez9650]

One other thing to mention about people not wanting to label May December as a comedy is because that would make the story of the true crime case the movie is based on "historically inaccurate," as the crimes committed were never done in a comedic way.

[@selalewis9189]

As a side quest, I highly suggest that anyone interested in what the real-life bad TV movie Elizabeth would have been in to please see “Mary Kay Letourneau: All-American Girl.” It starred Penelope Ann Miller and when I saw it in 2000, it was wild to watch. It’s free on Tubi and Pluto. I mentioned this in your original post, which was that I actually think _Napoleon_ is a movie worth dissecting as camp or melodrama. It’s a historical biopic about a real historical figure. But I seriously laughed out loud several times in the theater. There are almost as many quotable lines as what you would find in _Mommy Dearest_ And the fact that it is directed and stars two straight men, it’s worth analyzing the notion of camp beyond art that focuses on women and queer experiences.

[@herbertlongfellow7702]

I thought that Penrlope Ann Miller version was very watchable. Not bad. Classic effective movie. Penelope did a great job.

[@adeladam2325]

One of your best ever video essays. Took me a while cuz I paused to watch Stella Dallas, which absolutely wrecked me. But thankfully, I had seen all the Douglas Sirk movies you mentioned. I loved when you mentioned that May December makes us complicit by making us laugh, cuz it reminded me of another major release that takes a jab at true crime: Killers of the flower moon. I saw it weeks later than most and was surprised by how funny it was. Something most reviews and reactions failed to mention probably out of fear of being accused of not taking the harrowing subject matter seriously enough. Weird, when so many moments in the movie are abjectly played for laughs. As a fan of Haynes, May December, Sirk, Camp, and Melodrama, this video essay was so mentally stimulating. I had hoped you would bring in Fassbinder at a point, but maybe in the next one.

[@d_alistair-years]

Could this backlash be a symptom of people misinterpreting what the high school teacher meant when they said their Literature analysis essay “wasn’t correct”?

[@LycanVisuals]

Like Strange Thing about the Johnson's, I'll just recommend this as a wholesome family story to people who have no idea about it.

[@alim.9801]

Oh please tell me you haven't actually told people to go watch that monstrosity 😭😭

[@LycanVisuals]

@@alim.9801 Every chance I get.

[@DanielKlein23]

When I *really* want to annoy my friends, I break out one of my favorite bits of my English literature studies, Northrop Frye's definitions of comedy and tragedy. "A comedy is a story in which a protagonist is estranged from their community and ends up being reunited, and a tragedy is a story about a protagonist who is part of a community but ends up being estranged from it." I like to also say that since the protagonist of Midsommar is very much estranged from the community of women in the beginning of the movie but not so much in the end, Ari Aster's masterpiece vibe horror movie is technically a comedy.

[@StrawberryLegacy]

My favorite unintentionally camp, good-because-it's-awful film is Alexander (2004). I love it so much. It's so bad. I could watch it every day.

[@MrKegg]

Twitter really said "I need to be shelved until I understand how to discuss different opinions with other people properly"

[@louloudigiuseppe4755]

the funniest/most absurd part for me was that the final movie at the end had more in common with the porn parody Elizabeth was watching when she was getting ready for the graduation than reality. there was more overlap in the salacious emotions shown there than in Gracie's letter to Joe. she spent all this energy trying to be honest but was more inspired by the worst parts of the story that had been reflected in society

[@annalewein4673]

Wait.....Gracie and her son were in cahoots? That's what her line about "I hope you don't believe X story" was about?!

[@broderickschwinghammer2299]

I'd go even a step further with what you say at the end. People are scared to laugh at horrific things because they are scared of what other people will say about them for doing so.

[@dogvoter9973]

It makes me think of movies like but I’m a cheerleader. That movie is a comedy full of camp and it’s ALL ABOUT ABUSE!! dark comedy, camp, melodrama are what make dark stories palatable. sometimes even more understandable for a wider audience.

[@litothemanlapid]

Just gonna drop a recommendation on There Always Tomorrow. It is Sirk's most subversive. Rotating the Domestic Woman on a rut theme into a man with a primary messaging that he should cheat to escape the boring domesticity. Its his most underrated and probably one of his best.

[@mintjaan]

I think we should shelf the phrase "we should self X until people know how to us it" until people realize that desasemantion is inevitable, and while we should always keep in mind the historical context of words-- we must acknowledge the flexibility of language.

[@Xinixie]

I think you got it on the nail when talking about the way the film makes us laugh and winks at us to make us complicit vs people who watched the film and are so against the idea that anyone could laugh at it. I myself felt incredibly uncomfortable throughout the film and I think it was because I didn't want to be complicit in it. I think that's why it's hard for some people to let themselves laugh or imagine anyone else laughing.

[@Theodora7]

In my packed theater everyone was laughing so i didnt question for one second that it would be submitted as a comedy for awards. Though I also wouldnt question if it was in the drama category either. Genres these days are very blurred anyway. But as someone who is very involved in comedy I see and perform in live shows all the time that deal with deeply serious subject matter and they can be the funniest things ever while also making you cry and think. I think a lot of people are just ignorant about all the diverse forms comedy can take and how powerful it can be to get serious points across.

[@lolsous]

The people who think a movie about a dark or serious subject matter and that deliveries a meaningful message, can't also be a comedy are lucky, they have so many great movies to catch up on.

[@MaryJoHeadrick]

I watched May December at home alone and can absolutely confirm that I did not know how I was supposed to feel about it. I will say, I didn't really think it was too self-aware. I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be serious or funny. But i'm not a film buff, i'm more of a casual viewer, so maybe i just wasn't thinking about it like that.

[@Keira388216]

how can a beautiful mind such as yours, who is capable to produce such well thought out analysis is uncapable to understand that is pointless and impossible to win a twitter fight, that is just a place to banter frustrations, be it crazy or lucid

[@gialuzazul]

i watched this on netflix at like 10pm with my mom and i agree that this context made me read it as more 'serious' even though the intentionally ridiculous moments are clear. most of those i cringed at, but in like a "damn btchs are just this crazy in real life :s" type of way, and not in a cringing at the filmmaking type of way. and now that i think about it, i only cringed in that way at gracie and elizabeth because in my mind i framed them as the 'main villains'. every other 'ridiculous' moment did make me laugh a little bit.

[@bella-tt9hk]

I remember having a discussion about satire a few months ago with one of my English professors. He remarked that satire can be forms of societal analysis, often used to reflect the accepted absurdity in social norms or challenge dominate narratives. I think that is apt for May December because its satire is not picked up on. I think that satire is commonly misunderstood because of its misuse by a myriad of “edgy” comedians. I think that May December’s brilliance comes from how willing an audience can be to participate in absurdity as long as it’s advertised as prestige.

[@DoñaRatona]

Imitation of Life. Thank you so much, I saw this in the late 80s on the telly and was so moved by it. But I could never remember the name of the film. As I grew older I came to realise how rare it was that a film had so much nuance about race and single mothers, let alone that it was so old. It was rare to even find then modern films, or films set in the modern day, that looked at these topics with such depth because society was very aggressively telling itself that we had "moved past" these issues.

[@matthewlong3710]

Great video (thanks)... Also, that shot from All That Heaven Allows (at 15;50), the reflection in the piano, is freaking AMAZING. Wow, Sirk truly was special.

[@Ms.Delphine1204]

I watched May December a few days ago and burst into laughter every time that dramatic music started up. 😂 It was like they were doing it on purpose to snap us out of a confusing moment or to forget what the root of the damn story was in the first place. Ridiculousness at its finest but I’d watch it all over again 🤦🏾‍♀️

[@emwrsk]

i came into this video still thinking that it was ridiculous for may december to be considered a comedy. i really appreciate how you broke the film down and back it up. great video

[@stayphia]

i think so many people have this idea that you can't find anything connected to a serious matter funny as all. they seem to think laughing means you find the serious topic (be it in this case grooming) funny and not serious. but that's not the case for at all, we laugh when we're uncomfortable. there isn't anything funny about getting tickled but we still laugh because it's our natural reaction. watching a story about someone who was groomed is uncomfortable for viewers and the film knows that and leans into it. it reminds me of when people get offended when you laugh at a cards against humanity joke, like i'm laughing because i'm uncomfortable, not because i find incest to not be a serious matter.

[@kaitlynm9463]

That’s not what’s happening for the majority of people lmao the Twitter argument existed because Broey doubled down on it being CLASSIFIED AS A COMEDY, not that there wasn’t humor to be found a

[@swimsvg1855]

​@@kaitlynm9463there's no such thing as a correct media interpretation though, so it doesn't even matter in the end.

[@Hyperion5566]

Your tweet is unraveling current popular and honestly powerful reads on media rn, even if unintentionally. The end segment tackling Sontag is perfect for that

[@blumelodiez]

Its hard to imagine that ppl would NOT read Gracie's and Elizabeth's characters alone as not camp - Gracie's blatant cracking facade of a normal suburban housewife, Elizabeth's overall creepy and obtrusive presence. It didn't lessen the seriousness of the subject matter at all for me. It highlighted the overall absurdity of the situation and the failed pretenses of everyone involved. Joe and Gracie are not a normal couple who were "embroiled in a forbidden love". Elizabeth is not a normal actress whose so "dedicated to her craft". Everything about their situation is not normal. The irony is everywhere

[@AndSoWeLaughed]

Because for the most part, Gracie is a REAL person. Joe is a REAL person that they've based it off. Are we also saying that Mary is camp too?

[@Isabelle-hv6ny]

I don't know These People exist in Real Life. I personally did Not found it funny

[@kayshaffer2400]

“…the surrounding characters so artifice in style, so at their center is a core of truth- Joe” was an absolute banger line/point ❤

[@alexiss5997]

obsessed with the outro lmaooo this is the video i have been waiting for on this movie

[@mrflipperinvader7922]

20:00 "commenting on the hollowness of middle-class American Life" Wow...Sirk did it way before the films of 1999

[@QuezManez]

Interesting - I think I recognised when things were funny, and appreciated the humour, but I was just a bit grossed out by the character motivations and what the filmmakers were trying to say. I didn't think I had moved so far away from humour, but I think seeing the world fall apart so spectacularly, and how the entertainment industry plays off themes it maybe should find better ways to interrogate, and even looking at my own art practice and wondering how better to share The Point in ways that will reach the audience [or maybe just myself] has resensitised my funny bone. Is that a thing? Am I even making sense... Great movie, lovely essay you've put together too.

[@KalaJustHere]

Thanks so much for the video and breaking down the concepts around melodrama, comedy, and camp. I came away with a much better understanding of my own feelings about May December.

[@kyrahoneygosky]

holy shit THANK YOU. i was going crazy seeing people on twitter try to claim that this wasn’t a comedy. also, i watched it on netflix and immediately clocked that it was satire. i’m honestly still not sure how you could have any other takeaway, even if you watched it alone via streaming.

[@mariaeduardaanjosmoura5420]

i dunno if i'm late to this but I'm sooooooo ha´ppy to see a channel with such fresh analysis being sponsored by Mubi

[@DwRockett]

I honestly felt like the final “reveal” by Gracie did not actually happen in the story. Like it’s something Gracie made up

[@MeganMendoza]

i watched this video because i genuinely wasn't sure if "may december" was even a good idea to make in the first place. i've learned that i am a huge fan of the melodrama genre, AND i've been convinced to watch "may december" now

[@Haldered]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts! I got that the film was going for melodrama and satire in certain parts, but I didn't think it was successful at it, and it certainly didn't make me laugh. Part of it was knowing that most of it was true with names swapped around. Another part was that it satire was cloying and self-righteous - I personally did not feel complicit and I don't think it went anywhere near far enough in attacking the audience

[@chloe.elisabeth]

i love broey deschanel!!!! perfect perfect perfect

[@circleman628]

A similar film I had an interesting relationship recently was Not Okay from last year. Short summary, privileged white girl fakes a Paris trip online and doesn't admit it was fake when a terrorist attack is committed right next to where she posted one of her photos from. Rest of the movie is her going from profiting off the fame, to trying to use the fame to be an ally, to watching it all collapse when people learn she lied. Most people label it as "satire" and I didn't really understand that definition. I'm no film historian or expert in genres, but satire felt strange to me because I thought it wasn't exaggerating its central conflict, just commenting on it. But because the subject is in itself absurd, people latched on to it as a comedy. And as a result they looked down on it. I do think characters and elements in it were satirical, but I didn't see the core of the movie as such. On top of that, I saw a lot of people say the conflict should've been focused on a side character who was an actual terrorist attack survivor that the main girl was essentially stealing from to write about her "experiences", but that also felt oddly surface level since that wasn't what the movie was about. It was an exploration of what might compel someone with privilege to victimize themselves so publicly. But because there were jokes in the movie and the main character wasn't a good person, people felt dismissive and seemed to use the label satire against it. I think genres in general shouldn't be used as criticism or praise, that's never what they're really meant for. And if a film doesn't fit perfectly in what you as a viewer perceive as a specific genre, I think it's more on the viewer to consider the limitations in their experiences with film. As opposed to expecting a movie to conform to their standards.

[@user-dj7zs2ng3c]

The part where loud dramatic music kicks in when Julianne Moore says there are no hot dogs left. That's peak comedy. It happens very early. If the movie makers didn't mean for people to laugh while watching that wouldn't be there.

[@bluehornet632]

I laughed when Elizabeth delivered the line "I like youuuuu (?)" to Joe. Portman's delivery was pitch perfectly condescending. I still dont understand the angle of the "estranged" son. I had this feeling before his "theory/admission" scene like "why doesnt Elizabeth just outright ask Gracie if she was abused?" Its funny that barely any deep questions are asked in this film by the person investigating.

[@deividchg]

Another great and insightful breakdown ❤ When someone starts imposing morality, that's when I knew that they've reached their thinking limit, haven't evolved to grasp more complex subjects.

[@ebowbowers]

I dearly wish I could remember where I saw this (if this happens to be read by someone who knows what I’m citing please mention it) - but towards the end of the video when you mention how we’re not able to really engage in analysis reminded me of someone citing that the way late stage capitalism really only encourages us to engage with “content”… and by extension the quality or Thesis or hell even plot elements of that said content. If it is not morally and clear- it’s a judgment as us as the consumer of said content or media. Their point coming back to yours of “it seems that people are un willing to engage with uncomfortable subject matter in media because they’d view it as a condemnation of their own morals.” Lovely video as always

[@monicaleonte8913]

We watched All That Heaven Allows in my second year film class and the entire lecture hall could not stop laughing the entire time, including myself. I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head what we found so funny.

[@zekewalker1350]

I’m glad to have seen even a few of the stronger examples of melodrama you cited in this essay

[@hasnamahmoud9668]

This video was top notch. Thank you for making it. Laughed my ass off at the end.

[@Yevdokiya]

Thank you so much for making me aware of this movie. It's... one of the most unique films I've seen. I'm surprised the word "cringe" isn't making it into more of the discourse. I just watched the movie alone at home and tried to describe it to a friend who hadn't heard of it, and "cringe" was by far the best shorthand for the experience. I was going "wow" every few minutes, for various reasons. Everything from "this music is fucking ridiculous" to "what a piece of work that woman is" to "I can't believe they're going there" to "my god, what anguish". Cringing with laughter and disgust, disbelief, breathtaking sorrow. Wow indeed. I hope my friend sees the movie, I am dying to discuss it with someone in person. I think he appreciates off-putting humor and subject matter, so it might hit with him. Even if he hates it or turns it off after a short time, it would make for a fascinating conversation.