Broken Rules and 10x worse than we thought.

[@BlackBeltBarrister]

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[@adenwellsmith6908]

Computers were trusted - Now how is Administrative Justice going to work? Given the level of failure rate with the Post Office, apply that to the 4 million prosecution that Starmer was being very triumphant about, and its a disaster on a epic scale. You start, justice is to find the truth. Not what is happening now. It's all about extracting the cash. One point, on the jury bit, and the evidence, where does personal experience come into it? If you know that the prosecution [or defence] is talking the proverbial dogs dangly bits, what do you do?

[@parrotshootist3004]

what happens when faith in this system collapses?

[@adenwellsmith6908]

You please not guilty Along comes the disclosure. You outline your defence. Now the release a whole tranche of other evidence. Can you know get up to the jury and tell them what's happened and they must draw and adverse inference that the prosecution is trying to stitch you up hiding evidence like the did in the Post Office case? Or is it only the state that's allowed to infer that about its target?

[@adenwellsmith6908]

In my view it has. Having made complaints about police officers, its clear that lying is endemic. You can see this on lots of videos. I was watching one the other day where the police officer's opening statement was a lie. He accused someone of trying to open lots of police vehicles. Since it was all on video, its clear he was lying. Eventually he started back tracking because he worked out he had been caught. So I would be taking a default position that the officer is not honest. Second we had Stamer the other day triumphant that the CPS on his watch had prosecuted 4 million cases. Lots of things spring to mind. 1. Administrative justice. No courts, just someone or a computer saying pay up. Good examples are parking were you appeal and its clear they haven't looked at what you have written. I've not paid a parking fine in 20 years. I've had them, I appeal. It's denied. I take it to the tribunal and win. Every time. The system is broken. 2. They've created laws that are just there to extract money 3. There are out of step. 4. They are malicious. 5. They look the other way. A good example here. I had a hand in one peer going down for a year. So I started asking FOI questions. One, if they had released it would have exposed industrial levels of fraud in the Lords. So the person handing our money out to his mates, made it a state secret. You can't go to court to get that reversed. I've now got 6 made out to me personally. The only good thing, you can rightly state that most of the lords are frauds. They can't defend against that without a far more serious crime of breaking state secrecy laws. So my presumption, they are going to be acquitted unless I make a judgement that they need to be segregated from society. Unless its a politician, a policeman etc, in which case send them down. @@parrotshootist3004

[@itsverygreen532]

Question for you Daniel; should the post offices witnesses have disclosed that they were being paid a bonus if the prosecution was successful? Surely that is a relevant disclosure?

[@TheMorges1]

As a professional programmer with multiple years work experience, I CANNOT believe they trusted the computer and saw the software as infallible. Its ridiculous.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

They knew Computers made mistakes due to poor software, they just wanted to blame others for it's failing. It's one big cover up for their own failure and so they blamed the postmasters.

[@tullochgorum6323]

Not only that, but the more info that comes out, the more shambolic the system seems to have been. This is the same organisation that created the NHS records catastrophe, generally regarded as the touchstone for poor development practice. Multiple whistle-blowers from within Fujitsu claim that everyone in the building knew that Horizon wasn't fit for purpose and should never have been rolled out. Some of the bugs I've seen described are hair-raising. But this would have triggered big contractual penalties, so they covered up and prioritised corporate profits over legality and ethics.

[@vicomt]

I'm nearly 30 years deep in software dev. the ONE thing I'll tell anyone is that without a good QA team, dev's are useless.

[@MRW515]

Well that's their story, don't forget bonus' were paid for successful prosecutions which gave the investigators an incentive to hide the truth

[@babboon5764]

Ridiculous? *Or simply easy, convenient and utterly expedient* ? Those at the top & the middle made their giant bonuses on this And MOST WILL NEVER BE HELD PROPERLY TO ACCOUNT .... Despite perjury & compelling others to engage in wrongdoing

[@LazlowT]

Something that really stuck out to me from the drama series was how it appeared as if the Post Office were going out of their way not to disclose to the defence material that would clearly assist their case and undermine their own. The whole time I was thinking "Surely this is just part of the drama and this didn't actually happen", but the more I read about it; the more it appears to be true. To me, the failure in disclosure is one of the biggest headlines of this whole saga, and the lawyers/investigators involved on the Post Office side must be investigated. If any wilful malfeasance is identified, they need to be barred from practicing at the very least and I would hope for some sort of investigation into Perverting the Course of Justice.

[@peterchapman697]

Certainly those lawyers should face disciplinary action.

[@matthewhackett1710]

Sadly, it is exactly what the police do. Justice in this country is as corrupt as the Horizon Scandal. See the way that the police worked in the Andy Malkinson case, for a easy example.

[@sipos0]

I'm no expert at all, but I'd have thought that if this is a mistake, it is one that only negligence can explain though.

[@colmgannon1490]

I think the instructing solicitors or investigators should face prosecution or a professional standards enquiry. I would not see the barristers at fault as they rely on the instructions they receive. If they are told that a certain document does not exist, they rely on those instructions. I am sure the deeper enquiry relating to the Post Office legal team is going to show serious faults in their duty to the courts!

[@TR4zest]

If anything, the dramatisation underplayed the failure to disclose and other malfeasance by PO management.

[@bobd4563]

Sickening disregard for due process and rules of procedures

[@gmo4250]

Yesterday in the Horizon IT Inquiry, the Fujitsu employee admitted stripping out the duplicate data in the audit logs before sending it off with the witness statement to say the software was reliable. To leave the duplicates would have made the court suspicious that the software was not up to it. This is the gift that keeps on giving.

[@jonathanbuzzard1376]

That is Fujitsu employee is guilty of deliberately misleading the court which is a serious criminal offence that could and should see them doing jail time.

[@gmo4250]

@@jonathanbuzzard1376 Currently there are 2 Fujitsu employees under investigation by the police for perverting the course of justice, that individual is currently not one of them. I am sure there will be more as the inquiry progresses. To be honest, I am disappointed that so far it's only the minions, I want to see some of the big hitters and lawyers be investigated.

[@rickbear7249]

I was present at ICL when the Fujitsu takeover occurred. (Not an employee, I'll emphasise.) And the corporate orders given to ICL/Fujitsu employees were jaw-dropping. Later experience with this same company's lack of professional integrity hasn't changed my first impression.

[@Geoff31818]

The phrase “and then it gets worse” seems to apply to this whole saga

[@Doug791]

On an almost daily basis.

[@ccbroadcast8654]

Every time you think we must surely have hit bottom something worse comes out. If you haven’t seen the racial profiling document I suggest you look it up. It’ll make your eyes pop out like a Tex Avery cartoon.

[@DJWESG1]

For years academics have called it 'a managed decline'.

[@chrisfell5073]

They were all frames by the PO, the lawyers and Fujitsu. Those pyscopaths need jail this time.

[@EdMcF1]

The phrase 'Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice' comes to mind.

[@thewoodster8607]

I agree and no hyperbole is needed

[@londonerwalks]

It took a TV drama to get justice. That says a lot about our failed legal system.

[@theonlywoody2shoes]

As a retired Pentester, I spent the last 15+ years compromising and “owning” systems that were supposedly secure and fit for purpose. If computers were as infallible as they claimed, I’d have been unemployed in an instant. Computers (hardware) can be robust but software/firmware is another option altogether - compiled by wetware that is fundamentally flawed, the results are predictable!

[@Hi-Phi]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines as well. The very fact that we always get software updates and patches for example, Windows, shows that problems or vulnerabilities were detected and need to be rectified. The legal position on this is really baffling!

[@mattwoodford1820]

Hardware complexities are far more limited because they are tangible. You can see the circuitry. Software on the other hand, is not. When testing software, a successful test is one that uncovers a bug (fault). We are not so short-sighted to assume that finding nothing wrong means there is nothing wrong. This is why software is constantly updated.. As regards the legal standpoint for software, you'll notice that the EULA will state that the software may not work correctly and that the user cannot hold the software company responsible for any losses incurred

[@andydudley1775]

@@Hi-Phi you only need to con a judge who happy to pretend he knows every thing and never makes mistakes and your good.says a lot about how inteligent a judge is and there sense of justice.

[@jonathanbuzzard1376]

@@mattwoodford1820No it is because a CPU is developed using formal methods. If all software was developed using formal methods (and some safety critical systems are) it would be horrendously more expensive so it's not done. I would be happy to accept software developed using formal methods as being reliable but that is like a tiny fraction of all software.

[@zx9mel]

As expected, it's time for some of the judges to get the boot as well.

[@JS-pondering_reality]

Yeh, good luck with one. It's a private club with them all looking out for each other, regardless.

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

100% Judges aren't experts, judges don't investigate, judges don't do this or that.... Judges have a profound impact on ppls lives, it is almost impossible to make them accountable for their behaviour (oh unless you can prove that they have nodded off!) or their considerations, whether in fact or not whether they have even opened the bundles or read the arguments. They are unaccountable, some are reckless and some are arrogant and conceited and some are just no good at their job.

[@andydudley1775]

most retired all ready .

[@jeffreyroberts7438]

The judiciary were complicit with this scandal. They accepted the post office lies without question.

[@TheDMG45]

Not only that: * They were OK with the victims just not getting a defense because they couldn't afford it * They never noticed hundreds of identical cases and wondered if something was up * They don't care that large orgs. abuse the process by throwing money up at it until the other side gives up * They didn't bother to set anything up to quickly sort people out once the scandal became undeniable * They seem to resent "political interference" being used to sort it out despite not lifting a finger to do so themselves

[@jonathanbuzzard1376]

@@TheDMG45 and in Scotland they ignored the rules of evidence that require *two* separate pieces of evidence to secure a conviction when the only evidence was the Horizon system saying the money was missing.

[@karlmylnere5712]

Jeffreyroberts7438 you are absolutely correct the Judiciary it appears were guilty of absolute bias in favour of the PO the entire legal profession is tainted because of this affair , both lawyers and judges knowingly aided in the conviction of innocent people , in the lawyers case it was , I am convinced , the pursuit of huge paydays that enabled then to override any doubts they may have had concerning the behaviour of Fujitsu and the post office, it seems to me that we have in this country a legal system that is in itself totally corrupt add to that the government and the police and we are up to our knees in dirt and corruption , just a shockingly awful situation.

[@richardpeel6056]

Postmasters were calling for help and the numbers didn't add up, the Post Office's Investigation Branch showed up and treated them as criminals investigating nothing, at least one of the investigators was a former CID police officer, surely this brings into question all the police investigations this former CID officer has taken part in. Are even the police competent to carry out investigations?

[@loclnor]

I am always surprised by the fact that the Post Office Investigation team didn't even seem to look for the 'missing money' - that in itself speaks volumes. Did they check the bank accounts of the postmasters/mistresses or look at their lifestyle?

[@peterthomas5792]

> Are even the police competent to carry out investigations? Often No. Like the Post Office, far too often their primary concern is securing a conviction, not getting to the truth.

[@S.Trades]

Luckily they are not corrupt! Allegedly!

[@dudmanjohn]

Stephen Bradshaw - one of the investigators has admitted to 'not being technical'. The Post Office investigation team obviously predate computers.

[@amandamcauley]

​@@loclnorApparently the investigators got a percentage of the money "recovered." Make what you will of THAT. 😠

[@alantheinquirer7658]

Might this not be important not only for justice, but for the judicial system itself? May things that were taken for granted no longer be taken for granted?

[@pelinoregeryon6593]

Is there a possibility here that some of the prosecution lawyers may have left themselves open to professional standards sanctions, civil law suits by the defendants and even perhaps criminal prosecution?

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

Fat chance

[@pelinoregeryon6593]

@@somalilandrecognition5413 Sure, it does seem unlikely that will actually happen if it should, howsoever, my question was is it possible they may have done something that could be used against them thus, if we think the system is too corrupt to obey its own rules or not when they prove inconvenient is another issue entirely 😐 I do echo your sentiment though.

[@jerrygeorgopolis8015]

BBB, I have been watching some of the hearings on this, and frankly I'm shocked at the lack of taking responsibly for these software errors !! Thank you for covering this, and good afternoon from the U.S.A.

[@palemale2501]

This whole affair sickens me repeatedly, SO much corruption, and it still drags on and on. The numbers of innocents falsely prosecuted; gross sums of money involved (90% paid to lawyers); the different areas of incompetence or malpractice by Post Office staff & board, Government, civil service, PO lawyers & barristers; delays & delays - mind numbing nightmare.

[@stevewebster6309]

Some lawyers need to be disbarred over this

[@BANKO007]

The disclosure obligation can be absolutely toothless because it is after a not-guilty plea and therefore all the arm-twisting, punishment intimidation, and bluffing to coerce the defendant to plead guilty has already happened. Who wouldn't plead guilty if it avoids the risk of jail?

[@jeremylister89]

There has been warnings about computer vs human for years. This springs to mind. 1967 Star Trek episode called 'Court Martial' where a mans future is determined by computer evidence alone. This and many other warnings have been ignored.

[@parrotshootist3004]

ignored? Made use of?

[@iandougall7169]

I have been hearing a lot about "trust" recently. I am struck by how non reciprocal the various establishment mouthpieces believe it should be. As a member of the public I am continually told to "trust the science" or "trust the experts" or "computer says no, must be so". Yet the very same mouthpieces demand I verify my identity, go through infuriating security processes or deny my access to something because I am not trusted enough. This scandal tells me we should be fundamentally changing our relationships with organisations and our views about trust.

[@sarahmcdermott8069]

Could you explain the role of the postmasters/mistresses solicitors in this? It seems the Post Office offered deals, plead guilty to false accounting and pay the money back and you don't go to goal Or we take you to court for false accounting and theft and you will go to goal. And they were advised to take the deal by their solicitor. On what basis would a solicitor advise a client to take a deal?

[@deanwalker38]

Sounds like all prosecution lawyers should be disbarred,

[@pcat1378]

I'm a software test engineer because computers are ALWAYS wrong because they are programmed by humans

[@denisharding5606]

I believe a more accurate definition is that well programmed computers are mainly right, but are wrong sometimes.

[@pcat1378]

@@denisharding5606 Nothing has ever been well programmed Otherwise test engineers wouldn't exist

[@jonathanbuzzard1376]

@@pcat1378 Formal methods have entered the room 🙂

[@BrigitteTucker-vn9bf]

If they are always or rarely or sometimes wrong should that be highlighted in a sales contract? Instead of calling the manufacturers helplinedesk the fault will be tested by a software test engineer licensed by a telecommunications IT Ombudsman ?

[@depthofshine]

Surly the judges should be accountable also as made the judgement on false claims and evidence.

[@alisonwilson9749]

How were they supposed to know the evidence given wasn't true?

[@paulharris1502]

@@alisonwilson9749 They only had to ask a few simple questions, like where did the "missing" money go. These Crown Court judges have proved themselves to be useless automatons.

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

​@@alisonwilson9749hahaha. They're only judges after all

[@jackspring7709]

I worked in IT for a large media company many years ago in London: major clients, state of the art IT equipment and yet one of my main jobs was preventing the server computers from crashing. I even remember literally jumping from computer to computer in the room for 3 hours one night to stop the whole lot from crashing. Computers are far from perfect and always will be: they are nothing but glorified calculators. No-one should depend on them.

[@prscrystalized3706]

Computer programmer here. You're absolutely correct. Faith in a machine is a fool's ploy. Some bugs can sit unnoticed for decades unless triggered by a certain set of circumstances. Judges and juries should have to possess good knowledge of the specifics of any given source of 'evidence'.

[@jangarrett3169]

​@@prscrystalized3706hi

[@mikehall117]

Senior management at the Post Office knew, beyond all doubt, that the Horizon system was the reason that many sub postmasters had been prosecuted, and some imprisoned, and, when I was brought into the confidence of senior management on 2nd December 2013 as part of my role at the PO, that one had just killed himself. It’s one of those conversations that has stayed with me as if it were yesterday it was that chilling to hear those facts. But that didn’t stop them stating in 2015 to the parliamentary select committee that they believed the prosecutions were sound. I am so angry to have been associated with this, and wish I had more than hearsay to present as evidence as some of them lied to parliament and in court and deserve to be prosecuted for this.

[@showlett33]

The PO investigation of the post masters, as carried out by Bradshaw and friends, was an exercise in confirmation bias. All they tried to achieve was getting the post masters to agree the numbers were wrong and to agree their contracts held them responsible if the numbers were wrong. Even though all the post masters said it was the computer, at no point did the investigation team ever follow that trail of breadcrumbs. The post masters could have presented detailed evidence of computer error but it wouldn't have mattered because the investigation team weren't there trying to get to the truth of the matter they were only there to secure prosecutions as directed by the PO

[@fredbassett8509]

I had a recent encounter with HMRC where data was lost. I was told "not our fault, our computers are 100%". it was their fault...

[@Trevor_Austin]

Defence Barrister: “What does your library system indicated was the version of software running on the day?” Prosecution Witness: “Version n.nn.” Defence Barrister: “Please would you tell the court why version 1.0 was not running” “…and version 1.1” “…and version 2.00” etc. Corporate software libraries (should) have records of the dates all versions of software, lists of faults, fixes etc. together with OS versions.

[@MrChrisStarr]

I think I read in computer weekly that they were updating on the fly the live system... no versioning

[@alisonwilson9749]

@@MrChrisStarr Ye gods, how can you keep track of software if people are tinkering with it without leaving a proper data trail?

[@peterthomas5792]

@@alisonwilson9749 I started at one company and asked what version of software a customer was running, and could we install it on a test system to reproduce a fault they were having. They didn't have a clue what version it was, still less how to reproduce it. Forget audit trails - they didn't even keep a record of what they'd shipped to who. I was searching alternative jobs the same day & gone within a month.

[@jensenhealey08]

Ex-solicitor here. It seems perfectly obvious to me that the lawyers working for the Post Office forgot that they were solicitors first (with the obligations that come with that status) and employees of the PO second. I cannot understand why so much was invested in an IT system. It's a tool. The PO should have been berating Fujitsu to make the tool work, not blaming the barely trained users for their inability to use the tool.

[@peterdale7896]

Did the Post Office use their own in-house lawyers to prosecute these cases?

[@paulharris1502]

Mostly, Yes.

[@marksteven6116]

the problem is they get away with it every time, the post office and police

[@khalidacosta7133]

Just remember this scary thought. She is a Christian priest. She was giving lectures on doing the right thing, being honest, don't steal, don't cheat etc to her congregation, then going to work, to prosecute innocent people, knowingly. She hired a forensic accounting firm who even told her of these issues but she instead fired them for telling her the issues because it didn't align with explaining the very literal skeletons in her closet.

[@pamvarnsverry2444]

Thank you - 6.32. I had a similar experience in the county court where the Judge during a Directions hearing told me to remove "any" documents subject to without prejudice written on them even though they formed a major part of my evidence. Thankfully the Judge on the trial day asked to read said documents ( the plaintiffs solicitor and Barrister went into meltdown ) argued against such disclosure to the court. I lost the case but that alone made my day to see his team reduced to headless chickens status..

[@MrGundawindy]

If no-one gets jailed for this travesty, then the legal system is a failure. People died from these malicious prosecutions, and the more digging, the more obvious it is that numerous people knew these prosecutions were malicious and unfounded.

[@captvimes]

@blackbeltbarrister I increasingly want to know why the Post Office and Fujitsu did not fulfill their money laundering legal requirements to determine where the "fraudulent" transactions ended up. This is a requirement, they have thousands of "fraud" cases yet cannot say where the monies are.

[@kimdouglas9930]

I wondered where the monies were too?? Time to get some forensic auditing done surely?

[@lulabellegnostic8402]

Judges in this country do not punish perjury, so there is no penalty for lying. And the adage ‘ignorance is no excuse’ no longer holds, either, as we see this week the rapist of a 13yo was released by a judge because he said he didn’t know it was wrong. Justice in this country has never been in such a parlous state because of a politically biased judiciary applying the law differently based on ethnic origin as dictated by the government.

[@kev6798]

When a postmaster used the computer system it was a only a matter of time they would go to jail / suicide with no defence possible.

[@Hertog_von_Berkshire]

Just how deep does this rabbit hole go?

[@georgejohnson7591]

I think we are only at the rim of it so far.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

The Covid Inquiry has indefinitely postponed Module 4 (rumour has it that the Truth is still refusing to lay down and die and we can’t have that can we)

[@HPPavillionUser]

I have asked this question elsewhere, why has the Law Society of England and Scotland not acted against the lawyers involved in this? They should be removed from practice and the professional body should be demanding immediate arrest and imprisonment pending trial for their perversion of the course of justice. LAWYERS ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW! LAWYERS IN BREACH OF IT SHOULD FACE THE MOST SEVERE SANCTIONS!

[@theaveragecyclist5259]

I cannot see how judges, prosecution barristers and those acting on behalf of the prosecution/post office etc are not held to account. Barristers cannot just say,i presented what I was given and i find it hard to believe that they were not aware as we're not the judges that full disclosure had not been undertaken. As you say they had a legal duty

[@MrAustin241080]

If they were saying money went missing but no investigation was done by post office to prove that they actually stole the money as there’s always a trail for example in post masters bank accounts or person for example.

[@Deepthought-42]

All software versions are documented. The Post Office should be required to disclose each software version of the Horizon program and what the version changed. There would then be be a timeline of the faults that were corrected and withheld by PO managers when making prosecutions. Providing evidence contrary to this would be perverting the course of justice.

[@redrooster5444]

Legal has nothing to do with justice. That's only in real Common Law, where the BAR has zero involvement

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

The Law long ago with most of the judges and Lawyers too stopped caring about real justice, they only now care about covering up their failings or politics.

[@parrotshootist3004]

@@RomanHistoryFan476ADNot to mention keeping it going to keep themselves up.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Indeed, it's just a big overpriced gravy train and we saps are paying for it. @@parrotshootist3004

[@BATMANONLINE01]

I worked in royal mail and was dismissed over a term "will full delay" worked my full hrs that day but they system said i had less mail that i did and they was able to uphold the dismissal in court providing false evedance from there "system" this is happening to this day to thousands of people with years of loyalty and experience

[@cbh9298]

It sounds like the prosecution should also be prosecuted!

[@KenEugen]

I really think that the courts need to introduce a policy of ‘innocent until proven guilty’. If they did, it’s obvious that hundreds of innocent people would not have been convicted, with many even sentenced to prison...Who were the judges?

[@callumthomas653]

I lost trust when they started disappearing from our villages and town what a shambles this government as become

[@ralphhorne9743]

I basically knew this but still listened to it because it is so unbelievable that I had to hear it spelled out again.

[@nickjung7394]

Interesting. I took a telephone company to the county court over the alleged purchase of a tablet which was neither ordered or delivered. I lost despite producing clear evidence that showed that the used by the company software was unreliable. I was denied the right to appeal but really had no idea why I lost. After confirming that an audio file existed, I asked for a copy. I was told that I could not have the audio file but could buy a transcript....which is, of course, useless without the audio file to compare it with.

[@anthonywilson8998]

When the lawyers know there is injustice and people are being falsely prosecuted should they not make a statement to this effect .All these convictions based on unsound evidence makes a mockery but then lots of money was paid over to get innocent people locked up or prececuted.

[@billwinward9324]

Surely prosecutions for perjury, investigations by professional bodies etc. do not need to wait for the results of the inquiry 3 years and counting). Isn’t the evidence already there?

[@pennywynn8716]

There are many Postmasters are now saying that when they were told there was a shortfall they paid the shortfall to avoid being prosecuted. I would like to know where this money went as it now turns out that there was a bug in the system. Seems to me that someone should have been confused when the accounts didn't balance. As a lowly bookkeeper I knew when something was wrong with a new system because the balances didn't make sense. Just to note when my company first used a computer programme I carried on doing the books manually for over a year to make sure the programme worked because I was dealing with Trust accounts.

[@edwoodsnowden]

I think this whole entire affair is a massive blow to the UK justice system and peoples outlook on the great British Justice system. Will take a long while for people to have any faith in the system again. Some of these postmasters had no option but to plead guilty to a lesser offence and that just is NOT RIGHT! They were either scared they were going to Prison or they didnt have the £1000s of pounds that is required when you plead 'not guilty'

[@AndrewRidley-m5o]

The whole judicial system needs a shakeup. Too many bent or complacent police, prosecutors and even defence barristers in the game. No such thing as a fair trial when the information is cherry-picked and a case built on inference.

[@dougaldouglas8842]

True

[@Wilkins_Micawber]

I can see that it is possible in future,that any person charged with an offence using computer evidence, will have a case to challenge the veracity of the machine. The prosecution will have to audit their machine with every charge particular to the individual being charged. The complainant with from then be evidentially bound to carry out a paper audit of all transactions for the purpose of corroborating the computer evidence. Evidence that can be scrutinised and challenged by the defence. That will be a good day for justice for all future suspected fraud cases. The computer will only then be used to provide the "SUSPICION" of fraud. A detailed paper audit should be the only evidence permitted in court as evidence.

[@michaelmacgillivray9497]

So what happens to the barristers and solicitors who advised they're clients wrongly?

[@keithburrett]

I doubt anybody will be prosecuted over this scandal. What normally happens in a situation like this any compensation will be paid for by the taxpayers. Or in other words the public will made to pay for someone else’s crimes. Plus it will probably take ages for the victims to get any compensation and most will die before any payouts are made.

[@manoo422]

What sort of crappy defense did they have that couldnt point out that computers may be thought of as infallible but the human programmer certainly ISNT!!

[@hotrodchris805]

Lack of evidence available to them to prove errors, and everything being horribly bent against them.

[@nua1234]

Post office with held information about the bugs and audit logs

[@manoo422]

You dont need evidence the Fujitsu software was fallible there are dozens of high profile examples of how well tested software caused massive failures. NASA springs to mind!!

[@plasticcreations7836]

Im struggling to see what the Post Office got out of not putting forward the correct evidence. It feels like someone was on a crusade to prosecute as many people as possible.

[@markbriten6999]

Weren't some of the "investigators" being paid bonuses to get convictions?

[@maddoglep2127]

Does anyone still have faith in any UK Institution? I cannot think of a single one I would trust.

[@Jean42ette]

On Radio 4 yesterday a person interviewed in Scotland stated that the PO issue in Scotland WAS ONGOING - this is beyond the pale.

[@Swaggerlot]

What are the ramifications for a barrister representing a prosecution, who is subsequently found to have failed to provide disclosures of which he/she was aware?

[@classicraceruk1337]

Computers can’t make mistakes. That’s very funny as human beings are not given this right. So how does a computer that is built and used by fallible Human Being suddenly become something that can’t make a mistake. Some common sense is needed.

[@peterthomas5792]

Computers always do exactly what they're told. But they hardly ever do exactly what you thought you'd told them.

[@nua1234]

Mostly correct. Random error can be caused by cosmic rays which can flip bits in computer memory.

[@classicraceruk1337]

@@nua1234 All of it is correct.

[@classicraceruk1337]

@@peterthomas5792 Computers do not do all they are told to do. You are very naive. Never heard of power outages, sunspots, disk crashes, memory issues. The list goes on and on. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[@enkisdaughter4795]

Hi Dan If you type in Mary Monson Solicitors here on KZbin, they talk to a Yorkshire Post Master who was caught up in this whole Horizon debacle. He said that of the £32,000 he “paid back” to the PO investigators, they got to keep 40%. Have either yourself or Alan heard of this before?

[@KevinLyda]

Public systems like this should be open source and reviewable by the public.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Speaking as a software engineer: thank you for making a playlist on this topic. Some evening, when we are feeling calm, cool, and collected, my husband (also a software engineer) and I will watch all these videos. And half way through the latest I bet I will reach for the gin and he for the whiskey, because Holy Jumping Mackerels, Batman!! And if you don't mind, I will recommend these videos for my alma mater, for the introduction class for the software and usability majors. The freshmen need to understand from the start how NOT to do things!

[@nathangutteridge2376]

Daniel, please make sure when talking about Fujitsu in this context that you remember there's two separate business entities. Fujitsu-Siemens and Fujitsu Services. The latter is the support company that provided the support and everything else for the Post Office in relation to what has been going on. I worked there (Fujitsu Services) for 7 years and it was during that particular time the Post Office contract was running.

[@petermaidment1175]

Not directly linked to this video, but why were the postmasters not awarded costs when they one their appeal which swallowed up 2/3 of the award? Thanks

[@gmo4250]

They didn't really win the case, but the Post Office agreed to pay costs without admitting liability. The Post Office knew they could outspend the claimants, so they made an offer which was reluctantly accepted. It was when the Post Office attempted to recuse the judge. It was in the drama and a brief summary is on the wiki page.

[@palemale2501]

The disclosure system is unfair - if the defence does not cite it, then the prosecutor buries it. If the defence actually cited it, they received altered witness statements clearing the computer.. Seems the prosecutor incited perjury by asking for witness statements to be altered. Disbarred.

[@kidkal7825]

Hi can you explain the special case with the post office

[@roberttuck4768]

One thing I don't really understand is how POL were able to claim there was no evidence of problems. *Every* supported software product has at least the following things: 1. Design/implementation documentation 2. Bug tracking system 3. Support call tracking system 4. Software test tracking Why can/did defence not demand production of these which would have contained extensive details of defendants and others issues? If POL denied existence of such it would be easy to produce expert witness to say that without usage of these any claims of robustness are simply not credible.

[@cshairydude]

POL, acting as both prosecutor and supposed victim, had an obvious conflict of interest: on the one hand, as a victim who was a public company they had a duty to shareholders to maximise profits and minimise losses; on the other hand, as prosecutor they had a duty to the court to promote the administration of justice by following due process. It seems they prioritised the former at the expense of the latter, and the inevitable result was injustice.

[@andydudley1775]

thoudands how many judges notice .how many time did they sit in judgments on others for the same thing and never noticed .whats a judge going to say .i never noticed i was in a court room and play a borris ALL OF THEM .

[@ibp2007]

Lawyers and Barristers can smell the money.

[@willtellall638]

Parliamentary Question: My constituents have brought to my attention the erosion or deletion of their inalienable rights. Parliament has unlawfully and covertly fully repealed and partially repealed sections of the English Bill of Rights 1689. As the house is aware, this inalienable law originated from a convention parliament, not an ordinary one. When will the house acknowledge this significant historical error and nullify all repeals by any ordinary parliament of this inalienable law? Will the house recognize the English Bill of Rights 1689 as the absolute rights of Englishmen and women as previous parliamentarians have done? These two unlawful repeals have led to the misconception and wrongful assumption that parliament is sovereign. In reality, it is not. Parliament serves as the primary legislature, constrained by a constitution and the inalienable rights of the people. 1. The UK Public General Act 1867 unlawfully repealed section three of the Bill of Rights 1689 (access to historic laws). 2. The Statute Law Revision Act 1948 partially repealed section two of the Bill of Rights 1689. This partial repeal is the source of the misconception regarding parliamentary sovereignty. These actions, among others, constitute a serious infringement of the Common Law of England. These repeals must be rendered void, and the inalienable rights - incorporeal rights - must be restored to the people. My constituents insist on asserting their rights as Englishmen and women.

[@johnmoncrieff3034]

The actions of the Post Office are completely against the rules set out in the countries CONSTITUTION! Who ever allowed the PO to prosecute their own cases against their own employees, must have had skin in the game at that time! Only an independent body should handle any dispute and if required any prosecution, IE a Court! In this situation all the Sub Post Masters should take out a class action against the Board of the PO and the individual members who were responsible for this fraudulent case!

[@indiavan7986]

What about a mass bunch of citizens arrests. ? Post Office Board, past and present. Fujitsu Board past and present, oh and how about all and any MP who held the post responsible for the post office. WHY well after I thin, nearly 4yrs yes that's 4 yrs the met have now announced they are going to set up a national team to investigate the post office. 4 years to get to that statement..... wow must have been getting its full attention. If the public hand them crooks on a plate they can at least save another few years ( and loads of money) of course should any one scouped up who could prove their innocence through the uk judicial system would have nothing to worry about. ( they could take comfort from the recent ITV drama) Oh and a few hundred maybe thousands with first hand knowledge ..... and a whole lot more experience in this subject matter than many of them had in doing their own day jobs.

[@quantumnova8616]

I'm 25 seconds in...Computers rely on human input...Unless its AI but then there's factors/variables to be discussed here...Human makes a mistake then the output from the computer will be wrong.

[@tizerrazor1956]

In my opinion the behaviour of the Post Office and Fujitsu should constitute conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

[@simonmaverick9201]

In the USA I think it's called the Brady Doctrine.

[@Pooneil1984]

As an American this seems to be a prime example of British government haughty arrogance. We have our own, but this is so egregious. Thinking over 900 civil servants were thieves without admitting that the government may be at fault for the "missing" account balances. Which were just sitting in a suspense account.

[@molsky13]

What sort of judge sends a pregnant woman to prison over money?did he have no compassion? this judge is not fit to judge a dog show let alone human beings

[@ncooper8438]

Seriously, when something goes wrong we cannot believe a word of any of the senior figures at the PO, no matter what their role is or was. Its got uncanny similarities to political figures in Westminster and many in the NHS (when there's a problem).

[@MrAndrewFarrow]

Isn’t the real issue the fact that PO had prosecution rights? It makes it like a civil case. I’d like to think an outside body, like CPS would be in charge.

[@samuelclark8064]

Little Britain; Computer says no, justice! A Joke.

[@MakeCannabisLegal]

Thank you BBB 👌⚖️

[@beckinbinderin]

My main beef with Fujitsui..... WHY didn't anyone, someone, FIX the system???

[@mercedesblack7828]

How many people will be going to prison? I think this scandal and more to follow - very interesting will highlight the dire need for restructuring - like nobody in the justice system has known for a long time . Trust is something else .

[@lesjones471]

"How many people will be going to prison? MMMM the prisons might get overwhelmed so the government will have to buy tents and tie wraps to close the enterences.

[@andyiswonderful]

I bet the post office finds some past employee who has died and pins this all on him.

[@dhcanavan]

The Post Office and likely their legal representatives will find themselves in the dock for perverting the course of justice. That ought to set the scene more appropriately for a proper scale of financial recompense for the poor post office workers whose lives have been ruined. The PO is clearly finished as an organisation.

[@kennethsimmons2029]

None of which is relevant if Post Office have police on side to avoid any relevant investigation process despite offered evidence of embarrassed counsel. Can you amplify who has the duty of evidence recovery after declaration of embarrassment in open court ? Police to visit embarrassed counsel or counsel to contact police ? - I have flagged each to both with no re instated remedy for the false instrument relied upon by former police officer turned post office investigator in Sheffield Tribunal Sept 7th 1998. Reason for no CWU rep to member of 21 years is becoming apparent due to enquiry reveals and career aspirations of CWU leader, Post trial info of Nat rule 11 at discretion of CWU CEO but it aint Agatha Christie after the reveal of a mystery sign off of 321k to bankrupt Lee Castleton, Could deffo buy a police officer in S Yorks with that. Mandy Money

[@jessicawicker3582]

They are pulling that thang right over your eyes... computers? Yeah right....tell them to try again

[@enigma1000]

What criminal charges are likely to follow from what is known so far? Perverting the course of justice? Fraud? Perjury? Etc? I’d be interested in the full list!

[@ianlogan6632]

I may have misunderstood the assertion that a jury has a duty to return a verdict based on the evidence presented to jurors since that assertion seems to contradict the ideal of independent juries. Jurors must be free to decide free of any intimidation or pressure. Perversity is freedom. See? I have been paying attention...

[@Broadsword999]

Shouldn't someone from Fujitsu and the Post Office being arrested and tried for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

[@nickbrook234]

First questions - can I see your software implementation quality plan and verification and validation plan. Once disclosed, it would become very obvious to anyone with experience in safety or software engineering that the software was not adequately tested and likely riddled with systemic errors.

[@john_hind]

One patent injustice of the 'justice' system seems to be the way costs are awarded. Lee Castleton was taken to court by the PO and was (wrongly as it turns out) convicted. He was made to pay the PO costs which bankrupted him. The Post Office was taken to court by Alan Bates' group who won so comprehensively that the PO tried to get the judge sacked, yet the Bates group had to pay their own costs out of their compensation. Why this blatant injustice? The PO had clearly weaponised this unbalanced costs structure to leverage out of court settlements to an extent that was little short of extortion: 'pay us tens of thousands now or risk losing hundreds of thousands in court'. I agree that the Post Office and Fujitsu have a lot to answer for, but so does the broken British 'justice' system! The right answer seems to be to give the judges more discretion in awarding costs: normally, unless there is a patently frivolous complaint or a political agenda, any cost awards should be limited to the expenditure of the less resourced side even if that side loses.

[@peterm6219]

Are there any occasions when you are ashamed of your profession?