BTVS: Spike, A character portrait in a feminist Buffyverse

My thoughts on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Talking about BTVS’s failures and successes as a “feminist” show by exploring its representation of femininity and masculinity. Looking at Faith/Buffy and the “madonna whore” dichotomy; and giving a full analysis of Spike's character. Looking into his relationship with violence and love, and what it says about masculinity, as it is defined in patriarchal culture.
Sources
Giving an Account of Oneself, Judith Butler, Fordham University Press, 2005
The Will to Change, Bell Hooks, Simon and Schuster, 2004
How Can I Get Through to You?, Terrence real, Simon and Schuster, 2002
“Dissing the Age of Moo: Initiatives, Alternatives, and Rationality in Buffy the Vampire Slayer”, Rob Breton and Lindsey McMaster
“The Vampire Spike in Text and Fandom, Unsettling Oppositions in Buffy the Vampire Slayer”, Dee Amy-Chinn and Milly Williamson
“The Problematic Feminism of Buffy The Vampire Slayer”, F.R. Kesby
“Feminist Remix of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Rebooting the Buffybot”, Debra Beight
“Solving Problems with Sharp Objects”: Female Empowerment, Sex and Violence in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Gwyn Symonds

[@envies_ephemeres]

I'm so very happy that you pointed out which video this was. I'll be honest - I likely would have overlooked it due to the title, due to personal exhaustion about the current trend to insert modern social issues into quite literally everything (No disrespect EVER intended, but it's the truth). That said, this was wonderfully put together - I feel that, were we having an actual conversation, this would have gone on so much longer, I was so engaged. Spike has always been my favorite character, largely because he was so layered. Yes, he has a severe overabundance of dark points - but I always felt that he was so much more powerful when he had his moments of being insightful and tender, be it to Dru, Buffy, or later, Dawn. Whedon has gone on record stating that Spike was brought back to the show specifically to embody the danger of an abusive relationship - and while I admit that parts of it were hard to watch (Even James Marsters has decried 'Seeing Red'), it was masterfully done. It showed the difficulty of both parties to extract themselves from it, which is an all-too-common theme in such situations, and highlighted both the rush of what could be perceived as happiness in counteraction to the guilt that one feels when that adrenaline/dopamine subsides. There's a particular scene (Spoiler warning) where Buffy breaks down in front of Tara because she can't believe she's letting herself be in this situation that is heartbreaking - but so overwhelmingly honest that it almost seems real, as opposed to a scene in a series. As far as the concept of masculinity goes, it's closer than most of us might want to admit. Speaking from experience, Spike's arc of perceiving pain as love and vice versa is too exact for comfort at times. Very often, men (And perhaps women, but speaking AS a man, I'm going to speak only about that sex, its pronoun, and how it attributes to the conversation) who are hurt romantically in their formative years have a difficult time responding to or healing from the experience, and tend to internalize it. This carries through their other relationships - Dru only 'worked' because the pain was traded back and forth, Harmony 'worked' because she took what he dished out, and Buffy initially 'worked' because there was no limit. And like it or not, when this cycle happens even with HUMAN men, it often takes the loss of everything for one to realize that HE is the problem. The kicker is that, as long as he isn't called on his BS, he doesn't even see the problem. And in Spike's particular case, even if he WERE, he could always fall back on a shrug, with the words 'I AM evil." AS to whether or not Spike DESERVED his redemption arc in the end - I think it's a particularly harsh thing for anyone to argue against, at the end of the day. Yes, he did terrible, atrocious things - but so many of these same people who decry him sing Angel's praises - when Angel's 'redemption' was forced on him, and Spike CHOSE to pursue his. One should never be condemned if they are actively seeking to better themselves. I understand that there are exceptions where personal pain and attachment might come into play - but as a generalization, resistance to the attempt all too often discourages the subject from trying again. I'm NOT saying it makes previous actions OK - but barring removal or incarceration, is the best way to prevent such actions from happening AGAIN. I think I've rambled enough (And 100% do not feel like I'm being overly articulate atm), but I could likely fill a book with my thoughts on the series, Spike, and yes, even this video alone. This was exceptionally well planned, thought out, and described, and even at points where I may not have agreed completely, you were able to make me see your point of view well enough to at least understand how you got there. I am a big fan, and look forward to seeing more from you. Merci beaucoup - stay amazing!

[@chattylily]

Hi! First of all, you are most welcome, and thank YOU for taking the time to actually watch it and reward me with this wonderful feedback, you have no idea what it means to me! Seriously, talking in depth about one of my specific interests is my favorite thing and I so rarely get to indulge this urge! Indeed I feel like you and I could have turned this into an endless conversation, as you seem just as passionate and, dare I say, even more articulate than me! (seriously I always feel like I don't make sense, I am so glad it seemed clear and coherent to you). Also let's quit our jobs, take over the world and start a podcast! 😅 💯agree with every thing you pointed out, especially when you compare his relationship to dru, harmony and buffy, well (and beautifully) put! Please DO fill a book with your thoughts on the series, immediate best seller I wouldn't be able to put it down! Feel free to share some random takes if you like, I legit wanna read your thoughts now. Now I am very curious to know what we disagree on! Given the intellectual respect we both seem to have for each other, you will have probably guess that I never mind when people disagree with me (except if it comes from a bigoted place of course^^) and actually rather enjoy it! And YES, omg sorry! I am so bad with titles! If you have a better idea for it (and don't mind me stealing it) please let me know and I will definitely change it!! Thank you so much for all your kind words as well ! I work full time and so don't have a lot of time for youtube but got addicted to writing essays when I was in college so don't worry, more is coming, so glad to have you watching! And since it appears my french is no secret to you, Merci à toi, et enchantée de faire ta connaissance!

[@envies_ephemeres]

@@chattylily Enchantée, et avec plaisir! (J'apprends encore, so my apologies if I butcher the grammar). It is ALWAYS a pleasure to have an intellectual conversation about something I love with someone who can appreciate both sides of an 'argument', and can efficiently communicate disagreements and conflicting opinions - and let me put your worries to rest, you are very articulate. I shudder to think how long we could keep an actual conversation going, considering the clear mutual love for the subject matter. I enjoyed this discourse very much, and will likely watch/listen again to verify any points I might have missed the first time around (This is common practice for me, so please don't judge me too harshly, lol). As for the podcast, where do I sign up? 😅 Be careful what you ask for - even after 20 years, my obsession with the series and its characters is strong - probably stronger now than it's ever been. I had dinner with friends tonight, and spent the better part of the meal going back and forth over this exact subject (Thank you for the conversational topic BTW), and it was wonderful. I can/will talk to just about anyone about it, but like you, I don't get to indulge as often as I might - so if I were to reply in kind, I may dominate your comments section. I don't want to put you through that, lol. But if you're ever inclined to discuss, feel free to send me a message. I will drown you in text ;-) In regards to the title, you'd be welcome to any thoughts I had, but there's so much that you cover that it's admittedly difficult to pinpoint a specific theme - other than the character profile that you offer of Spike, and how it fits into your thoughts on the feminist status of the series as a whole. Again, that's what made me go looking when I saw your comment on Rachel's video - so maybe something along the lines of 'BTVS: Spike, A character portrait in a feminist Buffyverse' (Not my best, but I'm admittedly feeling a bit put on the spot 😁). But you get the idea. I'm doubly impressed with the content and the volume of it, considering your work schedule! I work full time as well, so I get it, but the fact that you were able to construct such a well-spoken dialogue in between working full time (I share the affliction) is just impressive. I am very much looking forward to more content whenever you get around to it, and personally would love to hear more of your internal thoughts on Buffy as a whole. Thank you so much again for the conversation. J'espère qu'on se parler a bientôt!

[@chattylily]

@@envies_ephemeres French is unnecessary complicated. Its resistance to evolve indicates a stuberness which only results in elitism, it deserves to be butchered. I shudder yet wonder! Don't be worried about any judgement coming from me, I am exactly the same ^^ As for the podcast, who knows, maybe one day we shall create this monster! In the meantime, drowing in BTVS insightful discourse seems like an insane and wonderful way to go! I can't believe I actually gave you something to talk about, I am so flattered (also, you're so lucky your friends are into buffy!!) And yep, I am stealing that title lol, thank you so much for that! When it comes to work I am the sort of person who cannot stand doing nothing so... what better way to occupy my time than rant about a series that ended 20 years ago ?😅 Seriously though, thanks for the validation, it feels incredible to connect on shared interests you're passionate about! My next video is on the show "crazy ex girlfriend' but you definitely motivated me to work on my buffy ideas, thanks for the boost!! I would hate to spam my own comment section so you can definitely look me up on instagram if you want to share more random buffy takes! (It's Lily Fayos, and I would message you but I literally have no friends on youtube and didn't even know you could send private messages, I suck at technology, my friends call me the boomer lol) In any case, Thanks for the intellectual stimulation, I had such a blast and you truly made my day! A bientôt et bonne nuit! (it's 4am in France lol)😅

[@PerplexedatSociety]

I'd watch this podcast. Excellent video, but this comment string was amazing.

[@chattylily]

@@PerplexedatSociety thank you haha! Maybe one day, who knows!

[@xAmyante]

I'm so glad this fandom is still active two decades after the show ended! Thank you for your take on all of this, I’ve always been super uncomfortable about the Seeing Red scene and its aftermath, especially as a Spike groupie, and you’ve made me think back on this in a different light rather than writing it off as a bold but faulty narrative choice. Spike’s character is the most obvious example in the Buffyverse of the writers struggling to change course because of the fanbase response. Although I will admit they managed to give him a rather consistent characterization up until they had to address his redemption. I think they partly succeeded (narratively speaking, not morally) by making it mostly about his past murders (with Robin confronting him rather than Buffy, his most recent victim who actually rushes to his defense) and by ruining Buffy’s relationship with everyone but him at the end of s7 just so we see his past toxic obsession shifting into unfailing loyalty. And honestly, I would almost find it satisfying if it were not for the double standard you mention in your video too. I find it hard to talk about Spike’s characterization without comparing him to Angel(us) because the show was so inconsistent with its treatment of vampires, their switch in personality (even Harmony remains more or less the same after being bitten) and the accountability that comes with it. Spike is clearly a special case created thanks to the enthusiasm of fans and James Marsters’ incredible portrayal. Vampires were not supposed to be this complex and seek their lost humanity. Plus the bad boy fantasy has a real “I can excuse mass murder and domestic violence but I draw the line at SA” vibe to it, you know? Seeing Red seems like yet another failed attempt at reminding viewers he’s still a predator despite defanging him for 3 seasons. Most of us realized it wasn’t out of character, and the season was leading up to him pushing too far, but it felt unfair that he was the only abuser held accountable. And to make things worse for fans, his breach of consent felt much more realistic than Willow using magic on Tara or Faith switching bodies with Buffy and sleeping with Riley. Just like Joyce’s death was way more traumatic because it wasn’t supernatural. This show would have aged much better if it had embraced its own queerness. You mention Willow’s bi-erasure, but you could argue Buffy’s, Xander’s, Faith’s, Spike’s and Angel’s are just as impactful even if they’re mainly subtext. Just like the show might have worked better without that many contradictory messages. Joss Whedon wanted vampires and demons to be nameless enemies to represent the struggles of teenagehood, but humanized too many of them, and people ended up identifying with the monster in them. It blurred the line too much for Seeing Red to drop so far into the show. The vilification of sex has always been an issue in BTVS and to me, this scene was just as bad as the multiple evil pregnancy storylines we got in Angel. Punishing Buffy for her unhealthy coping mechanism sends such a bad message to the audience. You said Spike was the only character in the Scooby gang to be “othered” but I’d argue Anya was given the same treatment. She was neurodivergent-coded and ended up getting punished for it times and times again. No wonder they were the two main characters who died in the finale… I’d love to hear your take on the first slayer (and the concept of slayers as a whole), her lack of consent seems to pave the way for the rest of the show (and to highlight how characters of colour are treated in the Buffyverse). I hope you’re only just starting with the BTVS vids because you just made me want to do a full rewatch! Also your cat is so cute!! Make sure to give him a kiss from me 😘

[@chattylily]

Thank you for such a great and insighful comment! It is true that the vampire/toxic masculinity metaphor works great for spike, but like you said it's as the every vampire character has its own set of rules! Of course, when it comes to queer representation, it's a little bittersweet to rewatch, though it was already pretty good for the late 90s, the potential was AMAZING. It's a product of its time I suppose. And yeah, it's hard for TV shows like this to address any serious topic in a way, because of how attached the audience is to the monsters. If we forgive/forget about murder, than it's hard to discuss any form of violence and condemn it, sexual or otherwise... It's so true what you pointed out about Anya! I didn't outright put her out as an outcast because her relationship with Xander seals her ino the scoobies, though after and before they get together she is absolutely othered and it's sad that she is really ever "in" when in a romantic relationship (with the most normies of lol). The neurodivergent aspect of her character is SO obvious when you rewatch it, and though it's really annoying how xander is always trying to get her to fit in and is embarrassed when she doesn't, she really does stand her ground and I don't think the show portrays her as "lesser than", just isolated and then dead lol (oops). I really wanted to talk about that but it's gonna have to be in another video haha. It blows my mind how much about this show could be talked about, likewatching the whole 7 seasons i feel like every charcter/episode could use a thorough analysis. And I'm not even getting into ANgel (I actually reemembered spike having a not so consensual relationship with harmony in season 5, after his "redemption" after filming... There goes nothing I guess) Urgh so much to talk about! Imagine if this video had been a podcast with you and me on it lol, it would have taken 4 hours lol! Anyhow, thank you for your lovely comment and thank you for noticing Bobby haha, I will be sure to give him a good cuddle for you!

[@Rachel24601-x]

Ha ha, how you pointed out how long this video was, and my mind felt like it only lasted ten minutes because I was so hooked! It was a brilliant, utterly convincing analysis of Spike and Buffy's relationship as well as rape culture. I completely agree with you about how much more satisfying the "redemption fantasy" is for rape victims, because the rapist takes on your pain without you having to take part in their guilt. As a reverse mirror image, it's also more efficient in the sense that, as opposed to revenge fantasies, the rapist take on YOUR pain, not theirs. Hence the beauty and the power of that fantasy. Your reading of Buffy season 6 and 7 is LEGIT the most interesting one I've ever seen out there (and sure, I'm biased, but I'm also right ;)). Just as a side note, and to make you work harder ha ha, what are your thoughts on Andrew's redemption arc? Also, would love to see another video on consent in the Buffy verse: what about Jonathan's fantasy world where everyone worships him, and gives him what toxic masculinty teaches males should be served to them on a silver platter? What about how consent is addressed as an issue in Tara and Willow's relationship? (And how gender plays into that, seeing as they're both women, as opposed to the Faith / Riley problem you so pointedly comment on?) I mean, it shows how much I enjoyed this video that it lasted over an hour and I'm like, can't you make another pretty please?

[@chattylily]

Thank you so much for that comment, I truly want to go deeper into this analysis, I really had to hold back at times and it was so hard not to get into everything. The ideas you point out are amazing and I might actually get into that in future videos. I think the whole consent debate and how it is portrayed with characters of different genders and queer relationships is super interesting. The Jonathan video has crossed my mind haha, I'm so glad you picked up on it! Food for thought for sure. Now I'm inspired to take the conversation further so thank you for that darling! I'm so glad you weren't bothered by the length of the video, there will definitely be a part two now haha! Thanks again for the amazing feedback!

[@Rachel24601-x]

@@chattylily That makes my day! Keep up the great content. On a related note, in terms of consent and gender-related perception of abuse in the Buffy verse, you could extend and consider Connor's relationship with Cordelia in Angel. Not just the age gap between them and the issue of abuse that alone raises, but also the fact that she is possessed when they actually become intimate, and therefore not the Cordelia he consents to having intercourse with. Now that I think about it Buffy was weirdly OBSESSED with men being raped by women who had been body-swapped!

[@chattylily]

@rachellapicque7802 that would be soooooo interesting.... I have to relate h angel now 😭😅

[@leololipop46]

A very interesting point of view on a very ambivalent character. I sort of felt sad for Spike all the time because nothing he did made him happy. But that's also what we, as women, are meant to feel for the "bad boy" in a patriarcal society. Well done !

[@jamesmcguire8400]

Really engaging and thought provoking video. Like a comment above, I always hated that scene and wrote it off as flawed character development in the Daenerys vein, but this perceptive approach forces an alternative view. I struggled with the redemption arc for a perpetrator of SA but this again presents a challenge to that orthodoxy. Thanks

[@chattylily]

@jamesmcguire8400 thank you for watching it with an open mind! I know it's a sensitive topic, but I do think these conversations need to be had!

[@prof.jezebel]

I'm late to this but agree wholeheartedly with your brilliant, complex, nuanced and well-sourced analysis. Very thorough and extending outwards to larger issues. I think there is another layer here that Spike embodies though, that plays a role in the bathroom scene. Certainly there is how the trauma of his siring constructs s*x as intertwined with pain and violence. There's also his indoctrination into toxic masculinity by Angelus. Spike says to him in "Angel" that Dru sired him but Angelus made him a monster. Angel has his way with Spike's mentally ill love Dru in front of Spike whenever he needs to Alpha him in their competition so Spike is humiliated for being a lover and shown that congress should be about domination, not love. There's also the blurring of boundaries and lack of clarity around consent in his relationship with Buffy, as she is always saying no, being violent with him, then either initiating or consenting. And she does accost him when invisible. Nothing excuses SA but one could see how he could be confused about what constitutes consent in their relationship. His face after she pushes him off shows he is immediately shocked into awareness that this wasn't their usual "dance" and that he had crossed the line and hurt her, which he said he'd never do. This is very different from an intent to cross that boundary. What we see in the act is his desperation to be close to her and make her "feel it" as she seemed to in their previous physically passionate encounters. Which is dominating, but out of emotional need rather than entitlement and objectification. This is the layer I think really defines Spike. The original William is a romantic and poet, with emotional sensitivity and intensity. He is humiliated for this but when he becomes a vampire and his passion is channelled into violence, he is given status for it (hence the slaying of slayers, to prove himself the most violent). He is also given love by Dru, who demands violent, perverse acts to earn her love. The thing is, there is something primal about our intense feelings of love and desire, which is expressed in his construct of love at this moment in the bathroom. It is love as raw feeling, not love as action and relationship. And this primal emotion is the root of a passion for life, which Spike has and Angel doesn't. Spike is passionate in everything, in violence as a vampire, in his loves for Dru then Buffy, and it is what gives him charisma in his lithe movements, cheeky banter, etc. It is also what leads him to want to save the world, first teaming with Buffy to defeat Angel and get Dru back, then fighting monsters with the Scoobies when chipped, and then falling for Buffy. This sensitivity and passion for life also underlies his tenderness, which emerges in his love for Joyce and Dawn, even when he is still full vampire. There are moments when he is kind to Willow, to Tara, to Anya; he takes the almost lethal beating from Glory to protect Dawn (without telling Buffy to impress her), and when Buffy is dead, he keeps protecting Dawn and working with the Scoobies with no benefit for himself. He is no longer pure selfishness, even without a soul, even before his redemption (although still often violent, manipulative, etc.). I think he fell in love with Buffy because she is good (in a human, fallible way) and the original William in him is wanting to be "a good man" again but afraid as he had been rejected for being a good man by Cecily. Buffy is the pathway for his return to goodness. But to get there, he must confront how his primal passion has been mis-shaped by the toxicity of patriarchal masculinity (Angel), constructs of love as pain (Dru), and selfish physical lust (Buffy). So he gives in to this intensity of emotional need and desperation in the bathroom with Buffy and when he realizes he hurt her, he undergoes torture to get his soul back, then evolves to become more nurturing, less selfish, trustworthy. There's more to go into in his redemption arc, but my point is that the problem isn't that primal intensity. We need that passion to love life enough to fight to make ourselves and the world better, connect with each other, make art, live fully. And there needs to be room in our culture to express our irrational, raw, emotional cores, as repressing it leads to it breaking out in harmful ways or dulling our capacity to feel and act. It is dangerous though when the world we live in is toxic, patriarchal, racist, etc. and so channels that energy in destructive ways. The answer isn't some Camille Paglia type valorization of the primal, but as a sister feminist and SA survivor, I think we need to (as you do here) approach intimate issues with a deep appreciation for the primal, the messiness of what it means to be human, as well as working towards clarity and accountability. One of my SAs was from a man who is still in my life (peripherally) because it was clear the act did not come out of entitlement, domination, etc. (like my other SA) but from deep emotional need to connect and tragic confusion around consent, etc. And up to a point I was complicit, in that I was being self-destructive and conflicted. It led to his catharsis, accountability, transformation. This does not minimize the act or excuse it or justify it. It means though that we need to understand the intentions and contexts, and as you claimed, allow for redemption and forgiveness in the more messy cases. Feminism is not man-hating; because, it does not believe that men are innately violent, misogynistic, etc.; it believes men are also oppressed by patriarchy and are capable of change. I think Spike's arc embodies this form of feminism, as well as the importance of primal passion, lust for life.

[@chattylily]

@prof.jezebel thank you so much for this comment. These conversations are so important for survivors to have. When it comes to art and representation, i think it is not so much about underlying universal truths, or even authorial intent. I think our personal interpretation of it creates meaning. What you felt, and so eloquently expressed, from watching that bathroom scene, that is true, and meaningful and valid, and I'm sure you are not alone in feeling that, hence why it is so important to share it. Your whole take on how angelus, dru and buffy influenced spike's perception of love is incredibly interesting. When it comes to how you relate to the bathroom scene on a more personal level, I simply want you to know you can send me a message or an email if you need someone to talk to. I do not mean to sound infantilizing, and I am heavily projecting here. I am just afraid you may be feeling more responsible than you should. If you believe you have a safe dynamic with the person you mention, you are free to make your own choices, and it can even lead to forgiveness if it feels right to you. I just want to make sure you are safe, and that you are aware that no part of you is to blame. Here if you need to chat, about Buffy or anything else ;)

[@prof.jezebel]

@@chattylily Thank you! This all happened decades ago and I am of the generation who became sxually active between the sxual revolution and 90s sx-positive feminism so there was a lot of confusion culturally around consent/boundaries; and every young woman I knew had also been SA-ed so we were there for each other. I don't feel I was to blame, but I think I have some accountability for not being clear. This doesn't mean "I deserved it"! but I don't think we can expect others to be mind readers, especially if we give mixed signals. I have male friends who were SAed by women in the same way, because there was mixed signals and they were emotionally confused about what was happening. It was only in the 90s that there was the concept of date r*pe and No Means No, and now there is the concept of consent as "anything that isn't full-on Yes! is not consent" which is fantastic! We're evolving around this, thank goddess. But what I learned is that it is so important for us to be clear with ourselves about what we want/don't want and to be empowered to speak that. The pressure on young women to be sexual, the pornification of our culture, being socialized to be more passive and accommodating, these all play a part in our possibly sending mixed signals, not feeling empowered to know ourselves and speak our needs. Acknowledging my part in not being clear is what allowed me to see how I was disempowered. What you bravely share about your experience is very different from the confusion I'm talking about. In a relationship with someone who is controlling and abusive, being unclear is not at all our accountability as it is solely the result of being gaslit and manipulated and afraid and maybe trauma-bonded. Anyone who is able to fight to see clearly, get free and safe, and come to terms with that trauma is a true hero, plain and simple. And there is no path forward with an abuser except getting out and away and rebuilding yourself. You are a hero who is also speaking out and helping others and I admire you so much. Lastly, I'm fascinated by Spike's arc because he reminds me of so many guys I knew in the punk scene who had been humiliated for being sensitive, artistic boys and so the dark iconography of punk gave them the "cover" of violent masculinity so they could avoid that bullying; but, really, outside of the moshing & music, they were sweet, feminist guys with real respect for women, and were dedicated activists for peace, social justice, etc. So I see Spike as a symbol of how men are gender-policed into violence.

[@chattylily]

@prof.jezebel thank you so much for your comment. You have literally brought me to tears. I am so proud of the conversations survivors are having to move things forward and support each other. I love that the show allowed Spike to be a complex character, who is both the perpetrator and on the receiving end of abuse. I feel like a more "woke" superficial take would have turned him into a 2 dimensional bad guy after the bathroom scene, and I'm glad they didn't. You have clearly done a lot of self work and introspection on what happened to you, and I'm sure that took a lot of courage, especially at the time. Thank you so much for sharing this experience, as well as your take on Spike and my opinion of it. It was so well written and passionate and enlightening. ❤️

[@robinschicha4712]

Spike is a Trickster: he is breaking every role you expect him to play, that makes him so fascinating. If Angel is Dr. Jekyll & Mr.Hyde, trying to suppress his Evil nature, Spike is more like Anya, Cordelia or Faith, always showing his 👎 or glee with the pain of others. He had not really a real hidden dark side, because he is always himself, in a sense.. for better or worse.

[@lessismore8533]

Love this plus he FOUGHT for his soul..

[@lessismore8533]

Buffy has 7 full seasons. It was only supposed have 5. Spike showed signs of character development PRIOR to him getting his soul back. So I don’t 100% agree his redemption arc was rushed. About the Cordelia thing. Though she was in her late 20s, she still PLAYED a teen. So unless her attitude didn’t come off as teenish to you, what’s it matter what her REAL life age was? No judgement to,you Spike was only meant to be a temporary character, but he was so,popular. They probably gave him a redemption arc because it would be redundant if he stayed a villain the whole time. Plus it had a lot to do with hm being able to love Buffy PROPERLY. Angel may have been the first love interested, but not even HE had that wholesome relationship with Joyce like Spike did. Side note. Angel was a vampire so he having a huge age gap with Buffy shouldn’t be surprising. ANY vampire love show/movie will automatically have an age gap thing, like “Twilight” My blood always BOILS when ppl act shocked at the rape scene. If Angelus did it, NO one would bat an eyelid. And still love Angel. So unfair they hold it against Spike even after he got his soul. I still wish the writers wouldn’t have done that episode cus the way the fans were about it ESP since they originally wanted Buffy to do the rape thing. But they changed it. No comment on that. I just wish they made Spike get his soul anyway. He didn’t need to do some last minute thing to Buffy. That felt contrived as heck.

[@Ruthlesstim]

Really interesting analysis about a multi-faceted character, I appreciate Buffy more after this video. You mention that the redemption part of his arc was rushed towards the end, but I always appreciate when shows choose to *go there* even if the result isn’t always perfect. A lesser show would have Spike’s urges towards Buffy passed off as a background element, so for the show to go so far as to depict actual attempted rape and present it as horrifying as it should be, sounds very ballsy and challenging TV. That moment wouldn’t work nearly as well if as you say in your video, Spike wasn’t already a 3D character who’s nuanced issues with toxic masculinity were well on display. While it sounds like I am praising the show, your video was very effective in laying out & reasoning with a potentially messy topic.

[@chattylily]

Thanks so much for that feedback! And I do agree that this could have easily gotten very messy, and many people would argue that it has, I just think there is also some good to be taken from it! Such an intersting thing to rewatch a show like that though, think I might do charmed next haha

[@lessismore8533]

@@chattylilyof course ppl will argue it got messy. Spike didn’t have a SOUL yet Nit judging you specifically, BUT it always annoyed me how shocked ppl act st Spikes actions prior to his soul. If evil Angel did it, ppl wouldn’t bat an eyelid…

[@alorapendrak9752]

Thank you for brining up harmony's abuse That bothered me so much! I would of been fine if it ended after Harmony attacked him. But then in Angel season 5 he forced himself on her twice while the so-called good guy just shrug in annoyance.

[@chattylily]

RIGHT? and in the end it's all OK cause he gives her the time of day for 5 minutes and has a beer with her, urgh ! I didn't mention the angel series cause I haven't rewatched it since I was a kid, and I wasn't sure if here was some sort of spell or something. But I remember some very shocking scenes that aren't addressed in the way buffy's assault was ! But thank you for pointing that out ❤

[@lessismore8533]

It’s not fair to compare soiled Spike to soulless Spike. Any behavior PRIOR to hi, getting his soul annoys the crap out of me when ppl act shocked about it. Plus JUST beucase n got his soul doesn’t mean he’s gonna be perfect. Soul just means conscience. Even Good souled Angel had his moments but he NEVER behaved like Angelus. Soul does NOT mean perfection ppl Plus Harmony AGREED to that moment in Angel. Dont out all the blame on Spike please …

[@chattylily]

​@lessismore8533 I don't think I understand the point you're trying to make. If I remember correctly, harmony did agree to having sex with spike but trued to get him to stop during, and she had to violently push him off because he either, a) paid attention to so her so little that he didn't even notice, or b) plainly ignored her. You are aware that consent can be withdrawn, and that ignoring that is still a violation, right?

[@prof.jezebel]

I think Harmony (who is stupid and shallow) is meant to represent not only patriarchal femininity/fembot/mean girl but also superficial commercialized constructs of romantic love. She doesn't see Spike really, just uses him for the status of having a boyfriend. So her poor treatment is perhaps meant to be an indictment of all that, while foreshadowing how Buffy will use and abuse him. The first time in Angel, Harmony consents. The second time she withdraws consent during. And it is horrible. I hate how Spike is used in Angel as just a comic foil to Angel, as if he hasn't evolved at all, back in bro culture, competition, toxic masculinity. His scenes with Angel are hilarious but it completely deflates his character arc. I don't like Angel as a show because it is so guy-talk in its perspective, with all the female characters getting screwed over.

[@syphilis8405]

Superbe vidéo, beaucoup plus intéressante que toute la série ! :)

[@chattylily]

C'est tellement gentil de dire ça, merci!!