"Buddha Before Buddhism": Considering Gil Fronsdal's Title and Translation

[@DougsDharma]

🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider supporting the channel by joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive videos, ad-free audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂 📙 You can find my new book here: books2read.com/buddhisthandbook

[@rastafah2263]

I want you to make a video Buddha's Five Dreams

[@Nooneself]

The Buddha before Buddhism is the most IMPORTANT book on knowing what the Buddha really said in early Buddhism. This book is in the same vein as the Gospel of Thomas in Christianity. Sadly, even though Gil 's translation is close in meaning to many other translations ...there are still those individuals so addicted to their practice...they feel their dogma/faith has been damaged, and they feel the need to challenge the translation instead of doing their research for the truth and if necessary updating their beliefs. Buddhism's beautiful message has been drowned in sutras , chanting ,bowing, and ceremony. All religions need to demonstrate self-control , courage, and intelligence when their beliefs are challenged. Best Wishes

[@xiaomaozen]

At the end of the preface, Gild Fronsdal states that he decided to call the book _The Buddha Before Buddhism_ in order "to arouse interest in a translation of one of the oldest surviving Buddhist texts". So I think the somewhat catchy and sensational title is kinda excused. Kinda! 😬😂 I highly appreciate your distinction between "historically correct" and "inspiring", Doug. Above all I'm a practitioner, and therefore I appreciate anything that inspires me/my practice (and Fronsdal's book did that to some considerable extent). But there's also a little scholar inside of me. And thanks to your video, he is going to read Bhikkhu Bodhis translation soon... 🤓😅 Thanks for another great video, Doug! 🥰🙏

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure as always, xiao mao! 🙏😊

[@aryeh1954]

One who is attached argues over doctrines - How and with what does one argue with someone unattached? Embracing nothing, rejecting nothing, Right here, a person has shaken off every view.

[@stevealkire6140]

We have the ability to determine the truth through our own efforts and inquiry. Buddhist writings, regardless of age, can provide us with ideas to consider. But ultimately, we must determine what is true ourselves.

[@DougsDharma]

Indeed so, Steve.

[@PariahSojourner]

Doug: great, informative video, as always! Since your last video on the topic of the Chapter of the Eights, I began reading them in my copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Sutta Nipata. After some reflection, I'm beginning to wonder if they were a kind of "beginner's teaching" for neophyte monks fresh to the sangha and the teachings; like telling them to take these suttas into consideration when they hear and learn more "advanced" suttas.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, that makes sense to me, though it's probably impossible to know for sure!

[@westsidesmitty1]

I bought Fronsdal's book on the possibility that it would be about the ''early Buddhism'' that is my main interest. I've just come off of a a light romp in Taoism as preparation for taking a look at Chan- ever the Theravadan heretic!!). And after the ''earthiness'' (and absence of method) of Taoism, The Book of Eights (sans the lists, and logical rigor of other Suttas) was delicious (and I'd never have found it without your video ''Window on the Earliest Buddhism''). I intend to take up your other ''early Buddhism'' suggestions, seeking this same buoyancy (Water Snake, Way to the Beyond, and the Noble Search), before taking a U turn into Abhidamma with it's lists and weightiness! The Chapter of the Eights in Fronsdal's account was about PEACE (''santi'' ), of being free from views, rather than the ''purity'' that was the obsession of the Brahmins- and his account of WHY they were so obsessed, went a long way towards ''humanizing '' them (and their caste prejudice). So often, books on ''Early'' Buddhism include invaluable context about Brahmanism and Buddha's cultural milieu, that I would otherwise never grasp. I treasure your vids on context- Buddha's Competitors- I've watched repeatedly! You have given me the tools to attempt my own archaeology of the Suttas! The other day I read D.N. 2.165 where the Buddha said (of the Dhamma)- ''there is no other refuge''. Quite an eye opener to one who bows to the ''Triple Gem'' every week at the Wat! I'd have just missed that entirely without your vid on the very subject. P.S. You once made an enigmatic comment about offering a course on Abhiddhamma. I can't even pretend to know the rigors and disruptions of suffering a fire in my home, but is that still. perhaps, in the works?

[@DougsDharma]

Hi Smitty! Yes the Chapter of the Eights is wonderful. As to the abhidhamma, it's still in the works, but won't be coming soon. I have a lot of research yet to do, and my books on the abhidhamma are still off being cleaned! 🙏

[@Erime]

Thanks for this informative series, Doug! I have heard that the earliest extant Buddhist texts were written on birch bark and were discovered stored in pots that were adorned with Macedonian numerals, and that 'Greek' Buddhist monks called Yonas (from Ionia) were in attendance at early inter-sangha meetings. Can you perhaps do a video on the influence of Greek/Hellenistic culture on Buddhism at some point? It's so fascinating!

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I'm not sure how much scholarship there is around that influence. It would have been somewhat later than the early material I discuss. The Questions of King Milinda might be seen in such a light, but exactly how that text was influenced by Hellenism is tough to say.

[@Erime]

@@DougsDharma I see, yes, thanks for entertaining the idea. There's also an intriguing apparent overlap with Odysseus finding himself caught between the extremes of the 'monsters' Scylla and Charybdis - which he overcomes by wisely/skilfully choosing the middle way between them and taking refuge within the limbs of a fig tree. I find the reliance on the written texts handed down to us when attempting to 'decipher' the true Buddhism very frustrating. I suppose it demonstrates the reason why an oral tradition was preferred quite well! 😅

[@freetibet1000]

Erime: What you point to is quite apparent also within the ways Buddhist art developed a few centuries after the paranirvana of the Buddha. It is widely accepted by many scholars of Asian art that there was indeed a very significant Hellenistic influence during and after the era of Alexander the great’s conquests. It is pretty clear that ‘information’ flowed back and forth between South Asia and the European continent. One particular interesting question arise; were the Greeks influenced by the teachings of the Buddha as well? On a side note I may also point out that Buddhist traditional art show signs of having been influenced by other [non-buddhist] cultures, such as, the Persian and the Arabic cultures throughout the subsequent centuries that followed, as well. So, to me it seems fair to say that a significant amount of influence and information flowed back and forth between quite distinctly different cultures in the older days too.

[@westsidesmitty1]

@@freetibet1000 There is a reference in one of the Suttas (sorry that my memory is no more specific) to possibly Heraclitus whose thought on change seems very Buddhist. 'One can never step twice into the same river'' and even Taoist ''In change, things come to rest''. But even Heraclitus stops shy of making the leap to Anatta! Of course, so little of Heraclitus has survived, that there is no way to really know how far he took it!

[@aidanharrison3888]

At least two Tibetan Lamas have pointed out to me the silliness , the contradiction of grasping for enlightenment . Buddhism seems to have a built in sense of homour .

[@DougsDharma]

😄 Yes! It is also discussed in the early texts, I did a video on that awhile back: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIXUmpWCgr5kgq8

[@freetibet1000]

Yes, we will find in both the Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings that any form of clinging is detrimental to progress. It refers back to the ultimate nature that’s always present and should not be seen as something to be ‘achieved’ or produced. Hence the notion of non-duality. I find it incredibly interesting that these very early teachings also seems to emphasize the view of ultimate nature beyond the duality of practice and path. It is as if the Buddha wanted to first lay the foundation of the correct view (beyond all lesser views) before embarking on the enormous project of pointing out all the different (84000?) ways we can reach the goal of non-duality and liberation. In Dzogchen (maha ati) and Chagchen (mahamudra) the practitioner is also firstly introduced to the ‘correct view’, called the ground, and after that is given the instructions how to achieve a stable realization of that ‘view’, which then is called the ‘fruition’. In these traditions a qualified master is transmitting a (temporary) insight into the true nature by means of something called ‘pointing out instruction’ (ngo-trö in Tibetan) where the student temporarily experience the true nature, beyond all (lesser) views. It goes without saying that not all students are sufficiently ready or prepared for such a revolutionary experience and that’s why these traditions have an initial stage of practice called ngön-dro before the pointing out instruction can take place. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I can understand, something similar is being practiced by zen practitioners as well.

[@TheDhammaHub]

The early Suttas are really amazing in terms of consistency and pragmatism =)

[@DougsDharma]

Yes they are very neat!

[@nordmende73]

A great video. Thank you very much!

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome, Mende!

[@danielhall67]

Can you do a video about the misconception of comparing karma to debt? Maybe debt is an apt metaphor, but something about this view seems wrong to me. I’m could be mistaken.

[@srebalanandasivam9563]

Doug please make an exclusive series on Buddhism in Tamil Nadu

[@Nyingmaba]

Oh, this would be amazing - Tamil Buddhism is a fascinating topic that is seldom discussed. In fact, i dont think any western youtube channel has looked at it

[@srebalanandasivam9563]

@@Nyingmaba the most crucial part of Tamil Buddhism is the epic Manimekhalai Thuravu (the Renunciation of the nun Manimekhalai) by Seethalai Sattanar 2nd century ad and the grammar treatise Viracoliyam by Buddhamitra 11th century ad

[@saralamuni]

Deep is this dharma of the Leaders, hard to see, Nor is it obtained by anyone, nor do they reach it. For that reason, when he has obtained enlightenment, the Benevolent and Compassionate Becomes unconcerned, - 'what body of beings will cognize this?' For beings delight in a place to settle in, they are eager for sense-objects, Bent on grasping, unintelligent, and quite blinded. The Dharma should be attained as nothing to settle in and as nothing to grasp. Its conflict with the world is manifest.

[@seungjaelee4646]

I don't know if you will answer, but what are your thoughts on Frank Yang? He is a youtuber who claims to have achieved awakening

[@DougsDharma]

I don't know him.

[@tseringlama5623]

Buddha said even if I Said it ( Pali or no Pali ) if your heart says, it not what he said or meant , do & believe what your inner Buddha says.. . .😉 but most importantly be compassionate, even to yourself . 🙂🙂🙂

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, compassion is most important.

[@bobs4429]

I don't read Pali, so I have to rely on the translations of others. One thing that's become clear is that there is sufficient "flexibility" in Pali that allows different translators to come up with, well, different translations. I think to call items in Gil's translation "errors" is at best not helpful. Perhaps to do so is an attachment one's own views? At any rate, I've found this book an invaluable resource in my journey along the path. I think it would be a shame if it were dismissed as just a poetic mistranslation.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks Bob. I think there is room to call things "errors" in translations, that said it's often a grey area, and every translation will have its small mistakes here and there.

[@robertfletcher11]

I have listened to all of Gil's podcast talks. He sometimes talks about possible alternative translations of certain words and how they alter the texts somewhat. He doesn't say that his translations are necessarily correct, he just points out possible subtle differences in meaning. It highlights his academic background (PhD in Buddhist studies)

[@gyrozeppeli6307]

I have a question, but i can't seem to find a direct answer on it. But can you be a Buddhist but also believe in some sort of paganism along as it's not contradicting the beliefs of eachother?

[@DougsDharma]

Sure, why not?

[@jamessherburn]

Ditch labels!

[@xenocrates2559]

I am more skeptical regarding the status of the kind of evidence you mention that determines an ancient text's status. For example, the 'archaic' grammatical forms could reflect a dialect rather than an earlier strata of the language; and there are other, similar, alternative explanations for most of the points raised in the video. It just seems to me that conclusions based on these kinds of textual analyses are often more tentative and speculative than we may initially think. Thanks for your thoughtful videos.

[@DougsDharma]

Well sure, I rely on linguistics scholars for evidence like this. Generally speaking there is an understanding of how languages develop and therefore which forms are likely to be archaic. (Also, we have evidence of the early language from the forms in Vedic Sanskrit for example). But all of this is circumstantial and tentative to an extent.

[@abhijaygupta7292]

rebirth was always accepted as fact India. To escape the cycle of birth and death was always the point of religious and philosophical discourse and meditation practices. Our conception of time itself is circular, which means all thoughts and actions and the kamma flowing from it are all happening in the present moment. Past and Future are illusions.

[@venrakkhita]

t'his is a book, this is a translation, this is another book, it has a different translation ... i.... well....i disagree... the other book... well.... ' this is what it sounds like when you start getting in the quagmire of too much reading... get out and play with some pre-school poverty kids... don't lose the spirit. metta .. love your work.. i share it to all my teen classes. Go Doug

[@DougsDharma]

My background is academic and philosophical. It isn’t for everyone! 🙏😊

[@jamessherburn]

Endless deliberation over nuances wouldn't seem to me to be on the path.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, best not to get lost in them.

[@leorivers7759]

Was the Buddha a Buddhist? In a career of 40 years Gotama could go through 3 or 4 "takes" on teaching.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, probably part had to do with the audience he was talking to.

[@默-c1r]

🙏

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@stephenrizzo]

I think that the case for the actual octets disapproving of metaphysical views about this world or the next is stronger than you or K.R. Norman give credit. Consider this from Snp 4.5: "Nor would they form a view about the world through a notion or through precepts and vows." The positions that the Buddha does not declare in MN 63 are metaphysical views about this world or the next. The word often translated as cosmos is loko or world. Snp 4.5 is why he does not declare them. The conditional consolations spoken of in AN 3.65 are also about this world or the next. Snp 4.5 is why he uses the conditional. I would argue that MN 63 and AN 3.65 make no sense if we take Snp 4.5 lightly. Could Snp 5.x be as old as the four octets? Perhaps, but many of them seem to talk about extinguishment in this very life. I think those who see little difference between the octets and the rest of the canon are shoehorning later views in them. The "this world and the next" are what the unenlightened long for. It is not the Buddha approving of the view that there is an afterlife.

[@DougsDharma]

Certainly some scholars take a similar kind of view. FWIW I wrote a paper awhile back for the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies where I discussed some of this general topic.

[@rastafah2263]

I want you to make a video Buddha's Five Dreams

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not aware of the Buddha discussing five dreams in the early suttas. Where is this found?

[@rastafah2263]

@@DougsDharma kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH25Zmxnf5arhNE

[@rastafah2263]

@@DougsDharma In the Tripitaka recorded his dream: The Five Great Subin Before Enlightenment is a big dream It's a big dream, which means 5 Dreams (Panchamaha Subin) of the Bodhisattva before he got it attained enlightenment as an Arahant, fully enlightened (The commentator stated that He slept on the night before his enlightenment, the 14th waxing moon of the 6th month, but the teacher Some say that there is also the 13th day of the new moon) as stated in the Anguttara Nikaya scriptures. Panjakanibat Phra Suttantapitaka means Bhikkhus, five great things appeared to the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet Why are there five Bodhisattvas? This mainland is a big bed. The Himawan Mountain is in the left hand. Drop into the ocean on the eastern side His right hand dropped into the ocean on the western side. Both feet dropped into the ocean on the west side. This is the first great subin. appearing to the Tathagata, the Arhat, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva one more thing The grass rose from the Nabhi of the Tathagata Arhat. Righteousness before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva Holding the sky, standing, this is the second great subin, manifested to the Tathagata, the Arhat. enlightenment Before enlightenment, not yet enlightenment is still a Bodhisattva one more thing A group of white worms with black heads climbed from the feet of enlightenment before enlightenment not yet enlightened also a Bodhisattva Stay covered throughout the suburbs This is the third great subin. Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is one more thing Four birds of different colors flew from four directions. fell at the feet of the Tathagata, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva and then turned all white. This is the fourth great subin, manifested to the Tathagata, fully enlightened and fully enlightened. before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva one more thing Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva Walking back and forth on the big Kuta Mountain (but) not contaminated This is the fifth great subin which appeared to the Tathagata. arahant enlightenment before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is look at the monks Article on this mainland is the big bed of Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is in the Himawan Mountain in a furry. His left hand dropped into the ocean. On the eastern side, right hand lowered into the ocean on the western side, both feet lowered into the ocean on the west side This is the first great subin it appears. to show that The Tathagata, the Arahant, fully enlightened, attained enlightenment. that there is no other virtue The verse that Ya Kha rose from the Nabhi of the Tathagata, the Tathagata, fully enlightened and fully enlightened. before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva take note of the sky This is the second Great Subin, appearing to show that The Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened The Noble Eightfold Path and well announced as well as gods and humans The worm that had a white head and a black head climbed from the feet of the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, still a monk Bodhisattva is Covered throughout the suburbs This is the third great subin. appeared to show that A layman, clad in white robes in large numbers, reached the Tathagata as refuge. throughout life The four birds of different colors flew from four directions and landed at their feet. of the Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is a Bodhisattva and then turned all white. This is a supersubin Verse 4 appears to be a vision to know that These four castes are kings, brahmins, phaets, sudras. ordained in the Dharma and Discipline announced by the Tathagata it made me realize the liberation excellent Verses that the Tathagata is fully enlightened and fully enlightened before enlightenment, not yet Enlightenment is still a Bodhisattva. Walking back and forth on the big mountain ditch (but) no contaminate this ditch It is the fifth great subin, appearing to show that The Tathagata has (rich) robes, alms, senasanas and cultivators. Pharmacist and not obsessed not obsessed There is a normal penalty have the wisdom to strip themselves out for consumption Monks, these five great subins appeared to the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is Source: Tripitaka, Dharma edition #Dr. Panchak. 22/196

[@rastafah2263]

@@DougsDharma Excuse me. I'm Thai. I'm not good at English, I translated from Google.

[@rastafah2263]

@@DougsDharma kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWq9q6SBatieqdU This sutra is good.

[@seven-qs5tm]

Some one i meet in online said he wanted to end suffering i dont think thats possible i mean life is suffering like what buddha said What do you think sir ?

[@robertfletcher11]

Life is suffering was not said by Buddha. Doug has made a video about this subject. Buddha taught the end of suffering, the cause of suffering (clinging) and the path to the end of suffering.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, well I'd suggest try it out and see what you think. You may not end suffering but nevertheless find that suffering is diminished.

[@abhijaygupta7292]

As an Indian hearing westerners use Dharma and dhamma as synonyms is so confusing!

[@seadawg93]

Whats up with Shambala publishing!? My first thought was “isn’t this [it is] by the same publisher and I’m the same format, etc. as ‘The first free women’ by Marty Weingast that got ripped to shreds by reviewers and translators?” I can’t tell yet if this book does a better job, or if you’re just being a nicer reviewer! 😂 (Have you done, or considered, discussing that book?) It was that book, and a few others by ‘translators’ who don’t know the language that literally make me wish that any book claiming to be a translation including even just a paragraph on the translators bona fides and experience with the language in question.

[@DougsDharma]

I did an earlier video on Weingast's book: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWO7nIp6e7yVrM0 . That said, I would not want to compare Frosdal's translation to Weingast's in that sense. Fronsdal's is an actual translation, but it has some weaknesses.

[@billybutcher6504]

Sir, please read "Revolution and counter Revolution in India" by DR BR AMBEDKAR.

[@KitKrash]

This guy has mastered the art of talking in circles without saying anything.

[@kylekornbau935]

You’re not pronouncing Gil’s last name correctly- it’s pronounced “doll” not “dale” - seems somewhat disrespectful and shows a lack of knowledge about who you’re critiquing.

[@DougsDharma]

Apologies, that was an oversight. I’m sure I mispronounce all sorts of things in fact. It’s no lack of respect, for the record I respect Gil’s dharma teachings a great deal, I’ve enjoyed many of them, and use and recommend his Dhammapada translation all the time.

[@MassiveLib]

Buddha was chilling out in a Palace being handed on foot n mouth, hot dancing girls and all the cash he could want.

[@be1tube]

That was before he became an ascetic. (We also hear he had a wife and children before he left them for a life of wandering.)

[@MassiveLib]

@@be1tube I suppose it fits into the myth more than the man that his compassion was unconditional that he could leave such a certain secure life of luxury to find out the meaning of death and suffering. What's deeply ironic and somewhat funny is that even when he knew the reason for people's suffering these reasons led right back around to the place he left.

[@Ponkytwo]

Just get to the point, Cur the waffling. 10 minutes into the video and nothing has been said. This with all his videos

[@Giantcrabz]

you seem mad