Build More Accurate Arrows using Arrow Spine Indexing | Arrow Spine Alignment

[@thomascannon6100]

Love your videos. Our local club has the same machine that you used in the video. I have about 4 dozen Victory arrows of different models. I put them all through the machine and the "spine align" markings on every single arrow was right on with the machine results.

[@tomburton8239]

Yes, I did this before seeing your vid. It was fascinating. I found ACEs typically varied +/- 10-15 on a 620 i.e. anywhere from 605 to 635 depending on rotation. But on X10s it was +/- 5 on a 600. I.e. X10s seem to be much better made. I then plotted the spine of each arrow vs. it’s rotation - and found the axis for each arrow where the spine was pretty much the same for all the arrows - and aligned this horizontally (because the flexing of the arrow on release is lateral as per archer’s paradox).

[@deinemutter18]

Thank you for another great video. First i had to stop it and order your book. Can‘t wait for it. Thank you and greetings from Germany.

[@davidhefner5668]

A piece of angle aluminum, or as the British would say, "aluminium", could be replace by steel. Legs could be made easily enough. Angle support brackets and a four roller skate bearings spaced 14" either side of center. Total cost so far probably $15-$20. The test dial indicator will cost a little more but certainly not in the hundreds. I would say less than $75.00 for a descent one. A far cry from $350.00. I'm going to look into this some more. Thanks Jake.

[@toniofakkers6005]

Hallo Jake!! Very interesting series about your tutorials, I have watched all of then to learn more about archery, arrows, recurve bows, settings, etc, etc, but I would like to know which of your tutorials should I to beging with, I mean the first, second and soforth steps, i.e., the bow or arrow tuning? Can you tell me/us the sequence of doing things? Thanks in advance for any answer!!

[@paweonisk6377]

Whoa, Jake with glasses. Looks like we're reaching another level.

[@davetoms63]

Jake, for shooting off the shelf with a cut to center longbow should you put the index against the shelf (down) or against the riser(side)? Also, does it matter as far as right or left handed bow and feather being right or left wing?

[@dwightbrown2808]

A wider tip on the dial indicator would read the deflection of the arrow better instead of reading the surface imperfections of the arrow shaft. The tips are interchangeable . A Starrett or Mitutoyo dial indicator would be a great deal more reliable. The weight should be 880 grams. The standard for spine is kind of weird as it mixes imperial and metric measurement standards (Sorry I'm a retired science teacher)

[@mhenschi]

I'm surprised to hear that Jake says it is more important to index and sort the shafts such that the assorted set shows the same spine in the indexed position than to make sure that all nocks are indexed such that the weakest spine of the shaft is aligned with the plunger button. (Actually I have heard the terminology "spline" in this regard. So finding the spline means finding the position of lowest spine around the circumference of the shaft) The reason for this in my opinion is that when the shaft is bend in a certain direction, which upon release will be towards the plunger, the shaft will naturally try to rotate into the position of least spine. So if the spline has not been aligned with the plunger, the shaft will try to bend towards plunger and as well towards the weakes spine (the spline). So I had thought it is more important to find the spline and position the nocks accordingly. And to do that there is a simple method which requires 3 ball bearings and a wooden board. Two bearings will be fixed on the board app. 3 inches apart. The shaft end will be inserted into those 2 bearings and the 3rd bearing will be put over the other shaft end. You then bend the shaft by moving the 3rd bearing with your fingers towards you or away from you on the board. The shaft will rotate by itself and index at the position of lowest spine. If it doesn't rotate by its own, you rotate it with your fingers and you will easily feel the indexing of the shaft. There might be more than one point of lowest spine. (I'm sure I'm not telling anything unknown to Jake, but I would really appreciate to hear his opinion on this)

[@UweWong]

yea they do this with golf clubs and fishing rods. they refer this weaker spot as the spine. unlike golf, i think in archery "spine" refers to the stiffer side. in golf, i have had clubs with one or two weaker spots, two made more sense since its then the weaker plane. I remember having the weaker plane pointing at the target. oh and i do use this method for find my arrow weaker plane, i usually have 2 spots that stops the rotating.

[@sillybilly7467]

Thanks for your input. I didn’t understand your method though. Could you please explain it in a different way? I’d like to try and find my weakest spine with your method

[@ramirezrodriguezdiego9927]

Amazing content. Thank you very much fou supplying all your knowledge. You're doing a great job. I'm going to get one asap. I have a question. Here you are talking about static spine indexing but, is there a way to make the alignment for the dynamic spine index? Or is it enough with what you are showing us. Regards

[@Pattyboybx]

You can do this by shooting your arrows and turning the nock. Once you get a perfect flight then mark the spot.

[@emptycl0ud9]

Sad I wasn't able to get signed copies of your book. I'll ask you to sign them if ever I meet you in person. Hope you give training in Toronto Canada

[@Seminex222]

i am a trad shooter myself....but i also do spine alignment on all my arrows (carbon and wood) my take on that is: bad release or some other error will effect the arrowflight probably more - but if i can elliminate just one factor with little effort - than go for it since my arrows are just around 27" long the methode you show does not work for me :/ usually i build my arrows like that: cut them to lengh add protectorrings and glue in inserts screw in points add protectorring at the nock end after that i but a point at the nock end (now every end has a pointy end) but one point at a hardwood board and press down on the point (at the nock end) with another board as straight down as possible the arrow will always bend toward one side! thats where the cockfeather should go release preassure - turn arrow slightly - repeat 2 or three times to be sure helped me a lot and just gives the good feeling that i have done a little more than most other archers on the parcour/tournament :D

[@aussiedeplorable8670]

You could also shoot all of your arrows numbered and without vanes at about 30m and record their impact point to sort out any flyers, this would also pick up any other inconsistencies too.

[@davidhefner5668]

The dial indicator used here is $20.00. The aluminum can be ordered online also for about $20.00. Roller skate bearings for a set $8.00. They are charging $300.00.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

the adjustability of the checker is where its at. I made my own spine tester once with what you have listed.... it was terrible and useless. I encourage others to try making one for sure.

[@greenhoodedvigilante458]

What about 'nock tuning' like some compound archer do? Do they work for recurve?

[@blaketurner731]

Jake, I’ve watched this video numerous times and it has been so helpful. I bought a RAM and I have been “blueprinting” all my shafts (target and hunting), including front end straightness and rear end straightness pre- and post cut. Which do you consider most important: 1.) Stiff side oriented the same way and get the spine deviations “as close as possible” Or 2.) Should I be less concerned with where the stiff side of the arrow is and focus on getting them all to the same measurement of deflection? (Meaning, if I have a dozen arrows and the measurement between the stiff and weak sides vary across the board, do I just get the same deflection number oriented the same direction despite where the stiff side is?) Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

[@MitchDunn-v2h]

I've always thought of Wooden as the standard, and all that other stuff was specialty and oddball stuff. Ya, I only do traditional archery, regular bows without all that fancy balancing, and aiming stuff added to the bow.

[@darranlowe4668]

On a Recurve, where would you place the indexed spine? I would assume to the left (away from the plunger) as to allow for the archers paradox if your a right handed shooter, or would you have to paper tune the bare shaft to see what results work best?

[@blackhellebore89]

My coach always said to put the index vane on it (so yes, as you say opposite the plunger) He's been floating arrows in the bath to spine align them since before we were born 😉

[@tuomolaakso1529]

Dude. *fistbump* The old Fatboyz with flames. All the cool kids have those! I have like twenty of those. Still shoot indoors and 3D with them. Might be better sticks out there, but these have flames :D

[@davidhefner5668]

The mhc dial indicator that is on your spline tester is around $20. Jake.....I would make it so the dial indicator would slide back and forth. I'm guessing you have to presently change each position with screwbolts.

[@beachboardfan9544]

Will the spine index change once the arrow is cut to lenght?

[@allywilkeforsenate]

Yes.Good on you for catching that.

[@ambiguity22]

absolutely. all these videos get 99% there, and then miss the last most important point.... CUT THE ARROW TO LENGTH FIRST! The weak part will rotate around the arrow as you cut progressively more off it. While these will be fletched the same, they falsely believe they have the spine aligned vertically on the bow.

[@Redsnake7819]

This is such a delicate and time consuming operation. Hope someone comes up with automatic rotation to remove human error variable. Also I would advise making sure the spine tester is level and void of major vibration.

[@mathiashammar1]

The crude option is to cut the shaft to desired length, put arrow-points in each end and press it with a level against the floor and find what side of the arrow is flexing. Mark that flex and repeat it until you see consistency in the direction of the flex, then you found your spot.Mark it with a permanent line for cock wane. But desired option is to follow what Jake just explained. But you need to invest time into it. You need time to tinker. But its very satisfying feeling when you done all that hard work and the arrows fly like darts.

[@KentRodgman]

I know this is an old video, but I can't seem to find the answer! I've been shooting VAP V1's with my barebow, and I've been shooting with the spine alignment line at 12 oclock. should this be rotated away from the plunger, or toward it? I'm noticing every so often I'll have 2 distinct groups, or some vertical spread variance. I initially thought it was a zniper thing, but I am curious if this might also be contributing. Victory spine alignment mark accuracy aside, I'll verify the spot, what direction should the stiff spot should point, at or away from the plunger?

[@junaidajujie7747]

just a quick question. why do you prefer win&win over hoyt? what makes one better over the other? or it just come down to preference?

[@AG-hw1uz]

Its probably preference most archers will never be able to tell a difference other than how they like the feel

[@sukmarrasy1386]

Great video...jake I want ask about F.O.C RECOMMENDATION for target archery ...i play barebow what the best indeks for 20 m 40 m and 50 m...hope you answer this..i`m from indonesia...newbie in archery

[@alessandrog5261]

Hi how do you translate the “10.000 of an inch” or any measure you read with the dial in Spines? Thanks

[@ramirofdez.6630]

Great lesson, like the others.... but i think this chapter can be more longer or need a second part making a complete arrow and more explications, and what is that you call lizard tongue?

[@ramirofdez.6630]

Barry Thirlwall thank you 👍

[@duesing6]

Jake put lube on your arrow where the weight and dial indicator are riding to smooth out those spikes.

[@anthonysaych980]

Hi I have just got some Easton x10 arrows to make up, could you give me your thoughts on the FOC for them as I have some tungsten break off points and not sure we’re or if to cut them.

[@stephendace519]

Jake, can you advise if after tuning arrows the best you can without shooting them if when tuning by shooting you would only use what you class practice arrows or would you tune with all your arrows. I have always used my competition arrows for all my shooting and having two sets makes sense (practice and competition) but not sure what I would tune my bow to. Any advice would be great.

[@carlaroseli]

Valeu!

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Thanks!

[@allywilkeforsenate]

Victory arrows are not spine aligned after you cut them.Just a heads up.The labels are spot on before you cut them.

[@MaxxHDROM]

can you tell me where i can get that weight?

[@ijazali1207]

How to make this spine tester at home????

[@Katzekaze]

I've heard many saying the Victory "spine aligned" line on the arrow is not really accurate

[@rijodel]

How do you orient the spine index line? Facing de plunger, oposite, up or down? Tks Jake

[@ramirofdez.6630]

Rijodel THIS is the most important cuestión Rijodel, How orient the spine, maybe jake forgot to tell us

[@timh9246]

He did mention it quickly in the video, perhaps not clearly enough. Basically, it doesn't matter too much which way the spine is orientated on the bow rest, the important thing is that all the arrows in the set are aligned the same way, for example all with the stiffest side downwards

[@rijodel]

@@timh9246 I agree with you, but my question was about Jake's personal choice. In my case, I orient the stiffer side oposite to the plunger.

[@ramirofdez.6630]

Rijodel i agree with Tim too, all arrows aligned the same way, i don’t have the machine to do that in my personal choose i put the spine up or down and i test what is the best not at the side of the plunger

[@rijodel]

@@ramirofdez.6630 Hi Ramiro. I shoot recurve, so I think that the arrow oscilation is more critic in the horizontal plane. In compound bow is in the vertical plane. But if you get better groups your way, go for it. I'll try it too.

[@dwightbrown2808]

What happens with an X10?

[@kennethrogers1129]

Have mercy just get to it boy

[@randybrintnell6802]

The digital spine tester that you linked to an Amazon is terrible. The frame is trash and puts so much right torque on the arrow that I can’t tell if I’m looking for the spine in the z axis or the torqued axis. The opposite torque from the arrow and applied to the weight tray prevents smooth weight tray movement. I’ve rotated the arrow 360 degrees and not seen the meter move. I wish I bought the one shown in your video.

[@Nifelvind86]

Thank you! Great video!

[@webincomeincome8767]

So if spine indexing is “not the best idea” as you said early in the presentation; Why would one spine index at all? Answer: spine indexing is obviously important.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

However spine indexing doesn’t mean you’ll have the best shooting dozen, dynamic results are affected by much more than spine alignment like pin alignment, nock alignment and end straightness of an arrow.

[@Waltham1892]

Nice BCG's...

[@rolandskarek721]

There is a much easier way to find the index or "spline". All you need is the shaft with a tip and a nock in place, and a string. Nock the string in and place the arrow verticaly with the tip down on a table. Then grab the string on each side and pull downwards until the shaft bends. Try it several times and you will see that it always bends to the same direction. This is the stiff side(Spline). Turn the nock so that it bends to or from you and make a mark on the inside. There you place the indexvane. Use an old book or something else soft, so you dont ruin the table and prevent the arrow from slipping away. Easy, quick and costsaving!

[@owsowmuskwanaistus9213]

u dnt need a tool to find spine n i aint sharing my secrets

[@Waltham1892]

I do understand that there is a theoretical advantage to spine indexing arrows. Consistency does equate to accuracy. However, on a practical basis, has anyone demonstrated this produces scores which are statistically better than not doing it? Of all the variables a recurve shooter has to control for to put arrows in the gold, I can't think that out of roundness for an arrow .166 in diameter is a biggy.

[@mrnice752]

I don't think you understood the video, or the tool being used. That big brass thing in the middle is a 2lb weight that's hanging on the arrow. He is measuring the amount of deflection(spine rating) at different rotations of the shaft. If one arrow deflects .395" and another deflects .405" they will react different to the same shot. Doing this means you can mark the point on each shaft that deflects as close to .400", or obviously your desired spine.

[@Waltham1892]

@@mrnice752 I do understand the tool and I understood the video. I'm asking the obvious question no one seems to have an answer for; specifically, does doing this make a quantifiable and significant difference in scores? A non-exhaustive search on my part reflects no one has put this to the test in a controlled manner. That means its time, money and effort expended based on an assumption.

[@mikeewing6035]

@@Waltham1892 s Spine indexing is well worth the time and effort. I have a spine tester very similar to the one used by Jake and I know this works. My method has more steps than what Jake describes: I start from a batch of 3-5 dozen arrows of a particular brand , model, and advertised stiffness. For each shaft the weak spine plane is identifed by the following process. Start by dry-mounting an insert and a point in each end of a shaft. One point is placed against a bench top while the point at the opposite end touches a piece of wood in my right hand. With one end touching the bench top and the other end against my right hand, the shaft is held at a 45 degree angle versus the bench top. With my left hand I press against the middle of the shaft, causing it to flex a bit. With pressure applied to the shaft , the shaft is 'rolled' by my left hand. After a bit of practice you will notice that the shaft will tend to snap to a particular orientation. This is very repeatable for each shaft. This identifies the weak plane of the shaft. Mark it with a silver sharpie. The strong plane that Jake mentions is 90 degrees around the shaft from the weak plane. After the weak axis is marked on every shaft from a batch, the actual spine can be measured and recorded. Of course it is important to serialize each shaft and to record the stiffness measurements in your notebook. I like to record the weak plane measurement and the strong plane measurement for each shaft. It is very interesting to load this data into a computer and make a histogram of the measurements. The histogram will immediately demonstrate if the arrow batch includes any oddball shafts. At the same time the histogram will demonstrate the center point of the spine measurements along with showing the spread of measurements in the batch. If you already know, from another arrow batch, what spine value works best for you, you can easily select a subset of nearly identical shafts from the new batch that will behave the same as your favorite arrows. Shafts that are stiffer or weaker than the 'good' shafts can possibly be used with a different bow. You will never regret capturing shaft data such as this in a notebook. You will refer back to the information many times in the future. Also, when you acquire a new bow, if you have shafts that you characterized this way, you can have the bow optimized without having to feel around in the darkness. One other thing: Jake mentioned that it is important to fletch the arrows in a consistent manner. For example, always aligning the cock feather to the strong plane, or always aligning to the weak plane. It is very important to be consistent on this. On my personal archery journey I'm at the point of trying to determine things like whether the strong plane or the weak plane is better to touch the button on the arrow rest. I know for sure that consistency is hugely important, but I have more to learn. This is part of the pleasure for me. Good luck.

[@Waltham1892]

@@mikeewing6035 I can see the advantage of ensuring the uniformity of spine and the effect of spine on accuracy has been well documented. What no one has documented is that indexing works. People say it should work, say how it should be done, but on one can say it provides a significant (or even non-significant) improvement in scores. I find that rubbing bacon on my points improves the accuracy of my arrows. I believe it does this because of the statistical importance of pigs flying. Until I prove that it actually works I just a guy whose arrows smell funny.

[@mikeewing6035]

A shooting machine is not useful for making tuning assessments on bows that are shot by fingers. The shooting machine replicates well what happens when an archer uses a mechanical release. The shooting machine doesn't come close to replicating the lateral impulse caused by the string rolling off the ends of the fingers.

[@randymartin3948]

You are to be a car salesman you over sale everything

[@UtiliTerran]

Am I crazy or does he never actually say what to do once you've identified the stiffest direction of the spine?

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Just point it consistently somewhere. Finger shooter: either in or out away from the riser, release shooter: either up or down.

[@UtiliTerran]

@JakeKaminskiArchery fantastic, thank you for the reply!

[@capricornmagic63]

Too much digression from the subject. Just talk less and stick to the point instead of jumping around all over the place, your videos are just so hard to watch/listen to because of the constant deviating.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Watch a more recent video this one is a few years old.