Building an MMORPG Crafting System WITHOUT MINIGAMES

[@michaeleber4752]

I am starting a survival game that will have crafting in it. In fact, the very nature of survival games is to craft. Your concept had me adding notes to my design book immediately. I played one game where you used a ton of materials for research then you need a ton more to build it. That made the crafting aspect a bit of a chore instead of fun. So I thought as the player constructed enough or collected enough they would inherently realize they could do something more with that. (so with wood harvest and building a few things you realize you can make floors and walls of wood. But, one you find and process iron ore, now you can make those walls and floors from metal) But the idea of research using only time to make a blueprint will lead to new knowledge and improved processes intrigues me.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Crafting is so important in survival games. Seven days to die keeps changing it around which often makes it worse before it gets better.

[@FeralFibreFarm]

I absolutely loved the blueprint system in EveOnline.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I did as well.

[@johndick5887]

I love deep crafting...having items most do not have......and the advantages that come as a reward for my efforts.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Yes, that is 100% spot on. The problem is, people see something novel like FFXIV and they are like "I want that" The problem is, after 100,000 crafts in FFXIV you start to hate the system.

[@RuneDall]

Archeage fishing mini game was fun. Honestly I think it would be a valuable addition to the crafting system. Especially if it makes items better the better you do at the mini game.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Archeage fishing mini-game was for for fishers. I would absolutely despise having to play DDR to make my crafts.

[@RuneDall]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Did you play fable 2? Do you remember smithing? I like those systems and can spend hours doing those repetitive somewhat mindless tasks for the illusion of progress. It’d be cool if you could do a mini game just for training maybe

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

@@RuneDall You hit the nail on the head "the illusion of progress" I think in single player games those things are great because they are time wasters and that's really why we play video games...to waste time.

[@RuneDall]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork in the mmo environment time wasters can be good or bad. I don’t think gating progression through team based content using a time waster is a good use. Crafting with the system Intrepid is aiming for is team based content. So while I would love a little smithy game to make me feel like I’m doing smith work I wouldn’t want it to gate my actual item output.

[@decyl_8878]

Most games I played had one-click crafting, it does work and I prefer it this way mainly because crafting was always a side activity with little to no impact on gameplay. One or two had timed action tied to it that would reduce crafting time, that was even worse, artificial time wasting, it should increase quality of crafted item if you succeed instead. I think that what you describe, perfecting the blueprint(be it by questing, hunting, crafting it x times) is the best approach since crafting is supposed to be integral part of the gameplay, not a side activity. Of course it would need testing, but out of all mentioned types this one seems most engaging and rewarding in the long run, as any minigame will get annoying after a while, no matter how good. If we have to have minigames they could be tied to upgrading the blueprint, say you got it somewhere and to activate it you have to play the minigame, since prints wouldn't be done that often it wouldn't get boring that fast. Also love the optional signing of the craft with minigame.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I could see the mini-game tied to upgrading the blueprint. Or reading the blueprint. But personally we could just as easily do away with mini-games entirely if we develop a good quality system.

[@64MilestotheGallon]

Here's an idea: a rogue-lite (using that terminology fairly loosely) minigame crafting system. I'm imagining a minigame that using procedural generation to keep players involved. There are lots of advantages to such a system: rogue-lites are some of the most replayable games out there; there is no generalized solution; rogue-lites are very well suited to test players' skills; this can work in tandem with "blueprint research" idea as a kind of meta-progression system for the minigame; higher level items can translate to a more difficult/longer minigame. Anyway, I feel like that could be an idea

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Horrible idea. A good crafting system doesn't need a mini-game.

[@64MilestotheGallon]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork I disagree with both statements. The gimmick you describe in your video, on its own, still has the common problem that, at the highest level of automation and/or efficiency, crafting will once again become a single button press. Or maybe multiple, albeit mindless, button presses. Do you really think players will find that interesting long term? The ffxiv crafting system is actually pretty fun, and it would be _good_ if it weren't totally solved. This is easily solved by small levels of controlled randomness. Potion craft on steam has, probably, the best crafting system I've ever seen -- and it's also the most blatant puzzle minigame I've ever seen. I think minigames can make a crafting system more interesting, that's all

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

The FFXIV crafting system isn't fun at all. You can literally run a 2 step macro and always 100% HQ every item. You don't even need to pay attention to the status effects. In order for a mini-game to have any meaning, it has to have a chance of failure. This normally comes in the form of randomness, and nobody wants to get boned out of a craft due to back luck on RNG factors.

[@64MilestotheGallon]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork The ffxiv crafting system is fun when you _don't_ know the solution. Obviously, the existence of a no-fail solution trivializes it, yes. Controlled randomness can eliminate such solutions, and keep the minigame interesting. The reason I mentioned roguelites is because, despite their intrinsic random factors, skilled players are still able to win nearly every time (even on the most brutal difficulties). Even if a player "loses" the minigame, there's no reason to penalize them by consuming all the resources put into the craft. Instead, why not have them consume resources proportional to how close they were to success? That way, a less skilled player will, on average, spend more time and resources on crafting than a more skilled player. Hence: the same effects as "blueprint research," but with more player involvement and skills to learn

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

@@64MilestotheGallon it just gets boring after a while having to play a mini game to do my crafting. Should makes have to perform a mini game before they cast a spell?

[@FrostyThundertrod]

I want to be able to mix and match material, let’s say I am making a mace, and I ask what is this mace going to be used for, is it going to be used to patrol around the node to keep monsters in check? If so it is going to get a lot of use and probably break, so instead of steel I use iron for the head it’s cheaper then steel and does not need to hold a edge and it’s a bit heavier so it does more damage per hit, or is it going to be used in a tournament? In that case it will get used in a round then there will be time to repair it between rounds it will be around for quite some time making replacements not needed and the lighter wight of steel means it is slightly faster to swing so the wielded might get the hit in first

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

That is one way to do it. Its a very basic system, that's also very powerful. 7 metals, 7 handles, 7 gems, can create 196 different maces.

[@dl3472]

I really like how they made music a mini game in New World, I hope they can do something similar with crafting in the future. But there has to be more randomness so players cant just use bots. Btw. I like your idea of "manufacturing logistics".

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Thanks. I like the idea of logistics as well

[@TheSlayer117]

"The problem is, that in FFXIV you can simply create a macro that 100% ensures you HQ each and every craft. Where is the game in that?" While you're not completely wrong, that's a bit misleading. People will use different kind of macros with variations depending on their gear, what they plan to craft, and how often then plan to craft. Different kind of macros mean different buttons are used. Every person can create their own macros, with trial synthesis helping them or just using a 3rd party tool. Obviously a lot of people will not like this system, especially those who just want to make gil asap without effort, but for those who do put time in effort figuring it out, along with everything that comes with crafting in the game, it is a very rewarding experience. Making money with crafting in big patch days is the one of the most fun experience I had in any mmo.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

While you are true people use different kind of macros with variations, in the end there is 2 macros for 100% HQ rate. One for the 40 durability crafts and one for the 70 durability crafts. That's it. Can you create your own? Sure. You **can** play around with it through self discovery. However, you can also look up the current end-game macro, copy and paste and you are done.

[@kionashi]

Im more of a fan of immersive crafting processes, I don't mind filling buckets with water, or putting wood into the oven to bake bread because I like to immerse myself into the game and doing those trivial things adds to the immersion .That said Im aware most people would find it boring so I don't have many hopes of seeing it implemented in AoC, Im also not very fond of the "microwave style processing" of just put the ingredients, wait X time and get the result, simply because is not really engaging, and encourages putting everything to cook and leave to do other stuff until is ready so is not really very engaging, but it could work if the the engaging part is outside the processing perse, like for example, instead of following a fixed recipe, you could tweak the amounts of each ingredients to tweak the stats of the final result...like if you put 100% iron you get a regular sword, but if you put 70% iron and 30% blood diamonds you get a sword with less base damage, but with bleeding chance, and if you put 70% iron , 20% blood diamonds and 10% unicorn horn you get less chance to bleed but the bleed damage would be stronger. and so on... there wont be a "best way to craft the sword" since a blood sword would be less effective vs enemies who are inmune to bleeding like golems and skeletons, but maybe it would be better against minotaurs and goblins...having ways to add mods to the weapons sacrificing stats would allow crafters to express themselves with their own style, some would be conservative and preserve the natural stats of the weapon, others would bet on making powerful elemental swords and others could focus on powerful procs like poison or critical chance...all with the same blueprint.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I don't think there is any immersion gained by hitting "fill bucket" and then "fill oven" That's just clicking. Immersion gets used so much as this magical panacea, but since everyone uses it so often its so watered down.

[@kionashi]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork of course in order to the crafting method to be immersive it would need to be more involved. What if instead of simply hitting a "fill bucket" button, when you interact with the machine you see your inventory and a the machine's GUI and you have to drag and drop your buckets of water from your inventory to the machine's water tank and with each bucket you drop the machine's water meter starts filling up? that would feel better in my opinion. and what about putting logs in the oven? maybe you, again, open the oven's GUI, and you get a temperature meter, when you put the log the temperature meter goes to the max and the log is consumed, but after a while the temperature will start dropping and you need to add another log to keep the fires up. That would be more involved that simply pushing the "fill oven" button

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

At the end of the day that's still not a mini game. Its a chore. Its just a task to burn time without any real skill, intelligence, strategy or planning needed.

[@Rogus27]

I generally prefer one click crafting but if crafting is going to be such an integral part of Ashes I think it needs to follow the gathering>processing>manufacturing model with the added layer of the blueprints. I also think RNG has its place within the system just as a positive instead of a negative. Finding rare or high quality materials while gathering like gems or gold and silver from mining rocks and processing excess materials, two ingots from smelting the ores for one if youve spent the points to reach a certain mastery of processing that field. On the flip side I have zero interest in minigame crafting this is something that would actually be a huge con for me if added to the game, it quickly ceases to be a novelty while crafting and becomes a chore, very quickly if added to something youll be crafting in volume. If ive gone to the effort of sourcing the raw or processed materials for 100 potions then let me enjoy the reward of crafting them all without some tedious minigame that in turn can also quickly add a lot of wasted time to the process.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Zero interest in mini-games.

[@Rogus27]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork If its tied to item by item craft then zero interest, Im not against it in every aspect id expect to see it in something like fishing.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Yeah fishing I have no problem with mini games since most of the people who want to fish want the mini game

[@dyrtybarstud5261]

Simplest answer is no, minigames do not belong in complex mmo crafting systems. That being said there are numerous reasons why you may include it but only 2 are really relevant. Is a failure rate important for the broader health of your economy, and Will another layer of engagement in crafting make crafting less accessible or less enjoyable for the players pursuing it as the core of their in game experience. As someone that is older, has some vision issues and slower reflexes, crafting and gathering will be at the core of my experience in Ashes so minigames that rely on reflexes will most certainly impact my game experience. I would prefer to see a system that benefits people that grind crafting and gathering for the vast bulk of their in game time rather than one that a person can just jump into, be great at the minigame and produce constant high end items with a few clicks. That system benefits high reflex players allowing those people to build crafting to high levels and create high end items easily without really needing to grind at all. Basically, minigames benefit Alt toon crafters more than players that main crafting. Set failure rates that improve with crafting experience may be frustrating at times but provide far more control over the availability of items in the market place. Modern bots and Macros mean that minigames WILL get hacked and the volume of high end items will increase in the market rather than maintain a necessary exclusiveness. The correct resource balance in combination with high grind requirement will always be the most effective way to manage the volume of items in the market rather than what amounts to a gimmick being a limiting factor.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Well thought out post. Thank you!

[@psym3x]

Question: Should you lose your benefits if your freehold is destroyed and have to start from the beginning or should the progress be saved to the character itself? If the former, then that could give real incentive to participate in a node siege. Personally I would find a minigame annoying after the 1000th craft so a system where I have to maintain my workshop to produce the best items seems very appealing to me.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

You don't lose progression in your buildings when your freehold is destroyed. You lose the freehold, but it retains the level. Subject to change™

[@psym3x]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Yeah I know. What I am asking is if what you are suggesting is implemented should you lose all the benefits you have acquired or should they be tied to the character so when you make your freehold elsewhere you still have the same benefits you had before? Seems weird to upgrade your forge to handle Mithril and still have that same forge when it is destroyed and you rebuild elsewhere. Your thoughts?

[@pilgrimidleandwalkon8192]

For example, cut down a tree, then remove the bark and branches, which in turn I can store them as resources for making fire. I also would like to be able to build the tools for this myself in the game, or to be able to buy or trade them at fair prices in a store or at a market nearby. From the so won trunks I would like to be able to build then perhaps a stool or table, or that I would be even in the position to cut parts such as planks and beams from this so won piece of wood and evenly not boringly from a building menu perhaps a foundation from wood to select, where I see then that me for the building ten complete tree trunks are missing. In the same way, I would celebrate it if there was a system in which you could explore things together with other players or NPCs in the game. I apologize for writing so much. However, this is a topic that has occupied me for a really long time.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I think that is a decent way to do it.

[@King_Russel]

As long as it wasn’t like new world where you could create 1000 items instantly and it was just a rinse and repeat. It is unlikely I’ll be a crafter main but would like to see some interactive games. I do like the idea of maybe having something a bit more interactive to stamp the item you make to “advertise” your wears.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Sure, but the problem is people want an "interactive game" but when you ask them "what does that look like" you get nada

[@1991sub]

For me the biggest "problem" crafting system needs to solve is what happen to item you just crafted, Ex: you craft a sword (to keep it simple i will summarize in 2 possibilities)either it's going to be a good or bad roll right, if it's a good one you get that good felling of the crafiting because now your item will go somewhere either you will use it for yourself or sell it, but if it's bad youcan't use it and can't sell because no one will buy it, so all you will be doing is crafting thousands of swords and destroying materials to have the chance to get some good one, and that's to me make its boring, feels like wasting time, if the swrod rolls bad your option is to scrap that item and get some materials back we need a solution to that for me a fun crafting systems would be where everything or at least most of waht i craft go to the world and have a use, like ins most single player and survival games, but in mmo this doesn't happen, most of the itens you craft are garbage and all you do is scrap them for a small amount of materials back and farm more and keep trying one day the rng gods will bless you with somenthing good, where is the fun in that? where is the skillgap in that? i really don't know what is the solution for this, that's why i kanda never liked crafting in mmos

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I 100% agree with you. That's why I hate RNG in crafting. A sword should be a sword, not a good or a bad sword

[@sp00l]

Love the MidJourney art

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Thanks. Trying to do some different stuff with my videos other than boring black backgrounds with text on the screen.

[@karsonkammerzell6955]

FFXIV's crafting jobs and mini-games are the only reason I enjoyed crafting. Knocking it for macros is unfair in my opinion, because there are macros for basically every aspect of MMOs out there all designed to eliminate part, or all, of the player input.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I'm knocking it for the macro because once you have the proper gear and food you don't even need to try. you run the macro and it plays the game for you.

[@pilgrimidleandwalkon8192]

Hello, I come from Germany. In my little spare time I love to play Skyrim. With a variety of mods. Part are mods that allow me to build things. Furnishings, entire houses, etc.. The second large part of the mods deals with survival, monsters and alchemy. Mods to hunt, eat, drink and so on. Unfortunately, this does not go deep enough for me. I actually dream as long as I make pen and paper and PC fantasy games of a combination of everything that you have addressed in your video. Most of all I would like to do something in Pathfinder, as well as in a computer roleplaying game, in the long run from the very beginning.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Interesting

[@brianjenkins2247]

My favorite crafting that I've seen is artisans workshop in Runescape 3. While the artisan items aren't player useable(they're for increased xp gain) the system itself is is a great foundation for how a crafting system could happen. I'm thinking we could make a crafting system based on standard gathering, dungeon loot(special items) and physics. Look up how artisan's workshop takes hammer hits on the material to shape the blades. If the weapons are polygon based we could use a durability/sharpness/power set up based on shape and material. With special ingredients for special effects same with things like enchantments or runic engravings. During this set up we could also make cosmetic changes as well

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I still think mini-games for the sake of mini-games are a horrible idea.

[@brianjenkins2247]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork get you there. I'm thinking it would actually be fun if it served a function Like you could literally shape your weapons and it would have an effect on how they functioned in game.

[@Tenken77]

Had it not been for PvP, EVE Online would be my main game for years. Imagine a PvE server with Hard PvE content that would cost you your ship which means the economy would still spin. The only difference between PvP and PvE would be that I would get to decide when I want to engage instead of the stress of always having to watch my back everywhere I go. Life is stressful as it is and I refuse to pay money to be stressed out even more. Consider making a fresh new PvE server for older gamers like me who can actually afford to buy cosmetics. Just a thought.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I 100% believe if Eve Online put up a new cluster with new characters and no skill injectors they'd have a huge following. All the people who loved the game but were too far behind would come back.

[@GameCarpenter]

You can have RNG elements within the crafting minigame, and you can apply quality detriments based on imperfect results rather than any kind of success failure system. Particularly, I think of the crafting system in Monster Lab(the old Wii game) - not in the specific system itself, but in the results aspect. Every time you are less than perfect, the end result goes down slightly - but it generally doesn't 'ruin' the finished product. A system where you have to be reactive because of RNG elements (conceptually things like, the forge temperature varies (RNG), so the metal turns orange faster or slower) combined with such a system, would force players away from any sort of macro-based play. The more 'steps' involved, the more opportunity for such penalties to become cumulatively more important. The mass produced sword with 90% quality ore, which become 80% quality ingots and a 70% quality sword, is going to be useful to a lot of people, but the real money is going to be in the few swords made with 97% quality ore, turned into 94% quality ingots, turned into 90% quality swords. Chunked level caps (or the equivalent - stat requirements for better equipment) could make such weapons even more consistantly valuable, since a higher tier low quality weapon couldn't replace a lower tier high quality weapon. Some of what you proposed models real world processes, but has the same problem of being anti-competitive. If someone is interested in getting started making components, but someone else is already marketing components that cost them literally 3x less per unit, they'd be better off just selling raw materials to the people who had the infrastructure. Forcing more specilization could, conceptually be a solution, but then you have to police alts. If you can do that, and you create a decent guild system to incentivize cooperation, with systems in place to undercut monopolies by encourage poaching (bidding on guild members?) and allow for infinite scaling somehow so player skills don't plateau and therefore the players become interchangable... maybe that would work? Idk.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Sure you can have RNG in mini games. The problem is, when RNG bones you, it feels terrible. Take FFXIV for example. You have a long and complicated craft. You only need 3 steps to complete. You need Normal > Normal > Normal status effects for you to finish. The problem is you randomly get an Excellent, which then you immediately and always get a poor state afterwards. So if Normal > Normal > Normal came up, you'd have 100% Crit Chance to get an HQ item. Instead, the way the dice landed you ended up with a 98% chance for an HQ item. Nothing you did could have changed the outcome. That's just how RNG landed. If you don't pop an HQ on that, you are going to be out millions of currency. That's the piece that feels horrible. As far as what you said about being "anti-competitive' well yes if I have been playing for 2 years, have everything established, my stations upgraded, my skills upgraded, my blueprints up graded, I should have an advantage. If someone can come in and by day 10 be as competitive as me, I had to break it down but that is way more anti-competitive. Your model, or design, makes it so there is no competition at all. There is no reward for being dedicated to your craft for years if a new comer can be just as effective in days or weeks instead of months and years.

[@iceman_69gaming13]

Huge task for Intrepid to make crafting solid over time. I do like farming and crafting alot. I dont like one button process. It should feel like an accomplishment when you have made a nice item. EVE online is a good example but I do want more depth into blueprint research. I would love to see for example in little higher tier items that you have to find specific layers of a blueprint to advance and you have to visit regions of the world. Then also invest in research with mtrl and time. However to make this time investment meaningful then crafting items has to be very valuable in game. That is another matter with discussion best slot in game in crafting vs dungeons. I am all for crafting but I want it integrated with the economy and very important "protected" from macros and such. Nice discussion video.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Thank you for the comment. I think a lot of what you are talking about could be done compounded with the economic regions. As there will be 5 economic regions in Ashes, you can only research your blueprint 20% of the way in any one region. This would force you to move about the world to make your blueprints as good as you can.

[@michaeleber4752]

Very interesting. Your comment with Paradox'response makes me think: you research and come up with a blueprint, but in new areas you discover blueprints that improve what you created. I had also thought that in the more advanced areas the player may find an item that they have to research and backward engineer to be able to make it.

[@Meathooks13]

I do really enjoy something more than just simply clicking the button and *poof* there's an item. But I'm also not the type of player to have used a macro in FFXIV's crafting system. I did some of the crafting beast tribe daily quests too and those were tedious as hell, but I felt like I was putting in the work and that felt good. So my personal view is that I'd love a minigame even if it is just time consuming. I get that that is pretty selfish though. So a few of my suggestions might be things like giving processors the ability to set and control aspects of their environment and have that have an effect on their efficiency or quality. Don't want the smelter get too hot for a particular type of metal, you'd better open some vents. Placing ingredients into a mixture in a specific order and timing could be important for alchemy. I would prefer things like this over something like ffxiv's system or some kind of timing based minigame. You could have books to be found through out the world that share this knowledge, if you have the book in your inventory you can skip the fine tuning process and it will automate the correct procedure for you if you chose? Sorry these are really just half baked examples of things that I think would be fun as opposed to mini games, but I got to spitballing. I'll be sorely disappointed if it is just a button click and definitely focusing on gathering in that case. edit: I really do appreciate the manufacturing focus as it takes at least some thought, and would love to have that on top of a more personally engaging experience.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Well we know it one be single button. I just hope it won't be a bad mini game like FFXIV.

[@nilin-o2]

I wish they would copy SWG crafting system, but i know that will never happen 😥 damn i miss that crafting system

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

They are actually basing their crafting system on SWG.

[@wolverineftw]

Like this but it would be nice if there was something you actively could do to speed it up, so you can do that rather than just start it and go do something else. Just an idea but maybe like a rhythm game were hitting the key at the right time speeds it up by an amount based on how accurately you do it. So if I start the crafting of the blueprint w/o any skills and go do something else it takes 100 seconds, if I stay there and do the minigame but only moderately well, it takes 70 seconds of me doing it, but if I master the minigame and hit the key perfectly every time, it takes 40 seconds of doing it.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

The rhythm game would get old so quickly, plus if I want to play guitar hero I'll go play guitar hero. I don't want to play guitar hero inside of my MMORPG.

[@momijitv3072]

crafting with osu! minigame is the way to go

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Well then how do you design a good mini-game?

[@RuneRelic]

Alas, of course, the proccess of experience and expertise, necessitates also that the unknown becomes the known. The inevtiable consequence of which (as you stated with content creators) is that everyone would eventually know the best ways to attain recipes/materials/products rather than raw trial/error. But by gating development/craftway progress with RNG, you can also ensure that the novices are always stuck with RNG dictating the success rates of extreme crafting attempts. This thus encourages specialisation to evade the RNG while that specialisation also forces crafting divergence upon the playerbase.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Again RNG should never be in the artisan system. Its just a cheap way to justify a bad system when there are better system.

[@RuneRelic]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Better is a matter of perspective. I didnt say RNG for processes they shoudl be capable of. Just RNG for processes they should not be capable of. Like making level 6 stuff. They can try and may indeed get exceedingly lucky. But probably fail hard. Again. Depends if you want risk vs reward in crafting or simply a hamster wheel.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Risk bs reward and rng aren't the same.

[@RuneRelic]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Well I just demonstrated how they are the same. You end up being worse off than you started is a risk. The chance you may end up better off than expected is the reward.

[@googleisascammer1385]

Have you thought about or tried working with Steven? It seems like you two would have great debates for the betterment of the game. I hope Steven takes the time to listen to your feedback because he is getting great value.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Steven and I speak very often. He watches the majority of my content so he knows the ideas.

[@dapondboi]

I liked the fantasy life crafting

[@antekacki8753]

Isn't what you just described the processing artisan branch? IMO crafting "mini-games"* should be about strategy rather than skill (quality is horizontal, and "best" outcome decided by crafter). *in quotation marks because to me Minecraft's crafting would classify as a primitive "mini-game".

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

So keep in mind this wasn't directed exactly at Ashes of Creation. The Discussion was sparked by Ashes of Creation, but a blacksmith has the ability to smelt his own iron. Or some do. Some don't. Some would, some wouldn't. While my example focused on the iron ore to iron ingot process I could have made it iron ingots to iron sword blade and it would have worked just the same.

[@antekacki8753]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork fair, I didn't catch that

[@JanoschNr1]

Lol a way to overcomplicated way and try of fixing things, there is a(/are) way simplier way(s) imo. Like the germans like to say. "There hasn't been one professional who's fallen from the sky" Wich basicly means and translates to "Do not worry, asslong as you steadily keep trying and get better you still can become a professional" One could make it like other games do like BioShock, Borderlands, Fallout or even Skyrim infact, sometimes ones encounters quest with a long path and no quicktravel way out, to avoid to annoy the players having to walk all the way back to the start they design the map around the idear and ideal that one can quickly get back to the start throu a shortcut path that reveals itself at the end of the "Dungen". Just translate it to the crafting system by allowing to lets say after 100 times doing this crafting task you either get a blueprint button to instantly build it instead of having to lay out the ingrediens like in minecraft 1 after the other and or let the player craft something else that allows to do that task for them like a robot, a machine assembly box, or in magic games idk ... a magical plant or what ever, that can create magic potions with its salvia or even simply get trades going with NPC's that if you store/alow them to enter your stash/iventory they craft automatically this or that item as long you have enough of the needed items and aslon as you selected to to do so. There are many way of easily handling it, it's just that nobody ever chooses to do so despite beeing simply to come up with these things. So that in the end it allows one to play the game and to handle these things for the player, leaving him to do other newer stuff or automating the rest. Infact, coming to think of it again, Skyrim is a pretty good example for "The more times you do it, the better and the easier it automatically gets to you" Without the sometimes tedies task of puttin skillpoints in the skilltry like Fallout and co.

[@RuneRelic]

Are bad products required to enable/identify good products ? Should products be created that have a scope from really bad versions of a product to really good versions ? Does that good and bad product even have relevences if 'quality scope is required' as part of that crafting/gathering progression system ? Is this not the whole point of the basic through epic/legendary quality systems ?

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I have no idea where you are going with this.

[@RuneRelic]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Where am I going with this. Sometimes access to specific gear that is made badly, is better than no gear. Often you need specific ingredients to make specific gear. Rather then near enough the ingredients or using lesser substitutes. Variability of goods enables reputation to follow craftsman. ie specific items can have a scope of quality rather than a specific quality.

[@corwinwhitehorn7759]

I do also like the crafting in Mortal Online (for the resulting aspect), but what you propose is something (to an extent) I do remember from Black Desert, and I liked it 👍

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Thanks!

[@xelloskaczor5051]

I am pretty ignorant about how crafting is done and stuff in other games but when people talk about new world or aoc they often praise the visual and audio feedback of harvesting, right? so has any mmo sucessfuly pulled something like turning crafting into simple rythm based minigame? basically click the button in correct time as your characters hammers the steel or saws the wood or polishes the sword? because that seems to be very easy to scale with proficiency and there seems to be a lot of fantasy tied to it. if people want to hear the characters chopping trees I imagine they would be extatic to bang on metal for few minutes. but I dont really know crafter players mentality or if such system would even be feasible, I imagine it would be very frustrating to lose your item to lag for example.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

So again I don't think that clicking a button in time with a rhythm is a good mini game. That seems like it would be interesting for the first 20 crafts, and after that you'd hate it.

[@ilpiv]

It's complicated and big subject since for some crafting is a chore for others it's a game within the game and for some it's really the only thing they will be willingly doing . I like the process you explained but I have reservations concerning the reductions in time (which I think is very good since it's our most pressions resource) and the reduction of materials needed. I am afraid that the second will create a disparity between gatherers and crafters even more. When we speak about the risk of it we already have a heavier balance on the gathering side you can get contested for the material, you may be killed, upon death you drop part of what you gathered, to transport your gathered stuff you expose once more your lively hood to atk (caravan, mule, personal movement), while the crafter side seems far less risky. What concerns me is the balance involved between the branches (I understand the whole wheat -flour-baker concept) concerning the time consumption and the risk, gatherers are high risk low time, processing is medium and craft low risk higher time. When we start tweaking those 2 components we have to do it for everyone. And while I personally hate minigames, I think that if your part of the role involves the least risk it sure as hell should be payed in time/money invested and maybe the minigames should be the way of shaving off some of the time, it's still skipable for those who can't be bothered to do it, doesn't affect the final product (tho I love the idea of name engraving) and gives those who actually do only that, a way of going faster at it if they choose to do so.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Keep in mind that your concern is countered by the people who haven't leveled up yet. Until (and unless) every crafter is at max proficiency, then there will always be someone who needs the full amount of materials. Sure the top guy won't need 10 ore per ingot, he only needs 3. So it looks like the gatherer has lost 70% of his business. But the new guy will need 10. The crafter will still need 10, he'll just use that ore on 3 projects instead of 1.

[@encouraginglyauthentic43]

Keep in mind that gatherers could ask PvPers to help them in exchange for some of the loot.

[@encouraginglyauthentic43]

Do you have a video on PvP and how to make it work?

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

No because there are like 900 good ways to do PVP, it just depends on what you want to do. You could do faction based, guild based, free, and then inside of there there are ton of ways to make them work well.

[@Nightowl5454]

Isn't the mini-games in crafting supposed to for cutting down on bots?

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

No, because every game that has mini-games for crafting have bots that can do them.

[@Gimlog]

If they go down the road of mini game , I think they should have the afk option on side with the mini game. And you put some benefits on the mini game that will over time positively influence the afk products. Make it two road that end at the same point , and let the player chose what he want when he feels to do so. This way you never end up with boring side of mini games.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

If the benefit is on the mini game, then you didn't end up at the same point.

[@Gimlog]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Well, let's say , that the mini game is the fastest way to the end and at the max there is no difference between afk and mini game. This way if you like the mini game you play it time to time , but it will not get in your way.

[@royalecrafts6252]

manufacturing logistics makes sense with a finite resource world, otherwise it will become inflated in the long run

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Every system becomes inflated. A manufacturing system based on logistics works as long as you have other material sinks (ships, caravans, sieges)

[@royalecrafts6252]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork every system that has infinite spawning resources without a way to re intering them into the system YES, they always become inflated, and Im not even putting bots and dupes into the system which furthers the issue, a system designed with a finite resourced based economy, a salvage system which encourages and reward players for re entering those materials into the world as well as, like you said, sinks like caravans and the likes as well as general detriment of items, THATS a well designed game without inflation, Ive yet to see one tho, I like your video btw sir, Im gathering info on crafting system for a future game development

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

@@royalecrafts6252 Well I have like a million and one ideas so if you ever need anything, just ping me

[@royalecrafts6252]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork do you have a discord available?

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I'm Jahlon on Discord now since they took away our numbers My server is: discord.gg/AHXa5dd

[@nevidimka8160]

What if there is no exact specification for metal type to be used for that ingot. You could use whatever metal raw material you have to get another unpredictable bonus attributes to the Sword when it will be finally crafted. This is what exciting for me in crafting system would be. Usage of alternative materials in same Blueprint to get improved crafting results. After you have Crafted several swords using different types of materials for same craft would open you a blueprint book or smth and than you know that for example those materials will give a weapon that type of attributes, when other will give you other... or you never know what actual aditional stats it will give untill you craft it. I hope you got my Idea. This is what Excyting crafting would be.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

The problem with this is that it would get datamined and mapped out and pretty quickly and then the discovery would be reduced to following a progression guide.

[@dk14gaming48]

Mortal online 2? But you need an Excel sheet 😅

[@RuneRelic]

RNG = risk vs reward. Granted, the brutality of the risk can be extreme (inexperienced & foolish), but then again the level of reward could be equally extreme via 'beginners luck'. (aka balance). But then we are talking about the 'scope' of the RNG range, rather than the inherent need for RNG as a risk vs reward system. Especially when RNG becomes a 'gated' system to 'necessities', rather than an 'optional' system for 'luxuries'. Ironically of course, RNG works on the proviso that the 'overall' success sample rate does actually reflect the 'overall' success sample rate and is not an estimated success rate that is way off for many people and only a hand full of people actually receive. The latter being the con that many devs deploy as part of the monetisation hamster wheel grind, spinkled with a modicum of addiction psyops. Like ESOs card deck drop rates for instance. Personally I have no problem replacing/interchanging 'attendance rewards' with the concept 'luck/fate/realism'. Crap happens, just as some people get lucky. But there is no reason why you can not merge the two. People start out inexepreicned with trial and error where the RNG risk is high. Those who are experienced not only recognise what processes work better, but also recoginse what processes result in failure. The expert level therefore requires solving the problem from both ends, not just one. That demands that failure and the chance to fail, becomes/is an essential part of the crafting process. Especially in regards to progression/expertise as a method of eliminating the chances of that RNG failure. That is the whole basis of the production line efficiency paradigm, specifically identified by the likes of Elon Musk.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

RNG is absolutely not risk vs reward. RNG in crafting should never exist.

[@RuneRelic]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork How is it not risk vs reward ? Given a trial and error system where all possibilities must be explored vs an accelerated system where you may achieve an objective early at a cost that may well fail.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Because you can be hit with a random effect that you can't overcome thats no fault of your choices. In FFXIV you'd get poor conditions randomly which halved your success. You'd miss by a few points just because the system said....here have a poor for no reason.

[@RuneRelic]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork So your saying a bad RNG implementation = bad RNG ? Well yes. I already stated ZOS ESO has atrocious RNG implementations that dont work as stated/expected. Even Steven has been apoplectic about such shenanigans and RNG implementation abuse in Archage for instance.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

There was no rng crafting in archeage that hurt you. The only regret was a benefit and double procs. Even then you don't need that

[@miranduscrafter]

loved your discussion :)

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Thank you.

[@demolama]

It's been a long time but i think the old eq2 crafting didn't bother me too much. Failure and bonuses for successfully passing a minigame is nice but I do like they made it optional. I think it was a fairly good risk vs reward system. But with the material quality system such a crafting system would suck if it fails with the top mats in the game. Quality should therefore be enough of a minigame for AoC

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

If people want a mini game, then it should offer no rewards. What they say they WANT is a mini-game. It shouldn't be something forced on other people because you want it and you want the reward.

[@Asothin]

Crafting systems must first and foremost be engaging in order to be enjoyable. A crafting system can be worthwhile because it provides high-value items, but that does not make the act of crafting them particularly interesting. There are a couple of ways to make a crafting system engaging. A minigame system fulfils that role but only up to a point. It is very attractive to casual players but becomes mundane for long-term players (macro automation as you pointed out). It also has the drawback of a whole separate game that needs to be designed and developed for the purpose of crafting. A potential solution, at least to the macro problem, is introducing a random element that prevents the solution from always being the same set of button presses. I personally do not think this style matches Ashes of Creation. It is better suited to games where crafting is tertiary and not one of the core systems of the game. By a tertiary system, I mean one that does not need to be interacted with to see meaningful progress in the game. Due to Ashes being built upon the node system, this lends itself a lot better to a crafting system based around manufacturing and logistics, where crafting plays a more active and important role. The example you make in the video. One thing that I do want to touch more upon is logistics. There are a couple of ways of implementing them. Paying for goods transport (other players), buying/building your own transport but still paying a transport fee (or material fee), or physically transporting the goods yourself using some form of a vehicle. In such a system the time cost is not just the time it takes to craft an item but also the time it takes to transport goods from one node to another. Why have a transport fee for a transport you own? In particular the material fee. This is because it creates a new market. A material that needs to be consumed every time you wish to transport goods, means that material has to also be gathered, crafted and transported as well. The more interactions a crafting system has like that, the more engaging it becomes. I don't actively follow Ashes development but to my understanding, a node currently levels up on its own after certain conditions are met. This process can be made more active by making crafting mandatory in order to progress and even require upkeep to maintain its current level (material costs can scale with population or be fixed). Buildings that can be built and require upkeep to be paid, in the form of materials. Crafting stations that are only available in specific nodes. Adding multiple layers to logistics and crafting, makes even simple processes create something complex and engaging. I do want to stress that for there to be a logistical problem, the transport vehicles, whether it be caravans or ships should be one of the most expensive and complex things to make. Otherwise, logistics become trivial. Physically transporting goods doesn't have that problem as it restricts you to only one transport vehicle at a time. In those cases, the possibility of crafting a better vehicle is also an option. The downside to that is that often physically transporting goods is incredibly boring and time-consuming. And should ganking be possible, also very risky. Those are just ideas. It all depends on to what degree players wish the crafting system to impact the game. Should it be something more akin to BDO, or a more traditional system like the one in WoW, where the crafting system is only there to facilitate consumables and gear for PvE/P? One last thing I want to touch upon. Having recipes that reduce material costs are quite punishing to new players as it means they will be at an inherent disadvantage from the start potentially cutting them out of the market. This means that new players would need to own enough money to even get started in crafting in order to make a profit. Instead, recipes that consume LESS time but inversely MORE materials are an option. Gives a means of cutting down on time but doesn't affect profit margins for the new guy. Naturally, there are a dozen ways a crafting system can be done, and this is just one option. Let me know if you'd like me to clarify anything or go more in-depth on the things I mentioned.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

You went into the whole delivery part which was going to be a future topic, but that's ok. I think you nailed it.

[@Asothin]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork If you have one without the other, then the minigame option does end up looking more attractive. And a manufacturing system with a trivial logistics system is essentially that.

[@encouraginglyauthentic43]

Maybe if there was an apprenticeship system veteran crafters could higher newer crafters. I honestly doubt intrepid has thought that far to be honest.

[@veeshan222]

with FF14 u can only realy macro HQ the base mateirals (aka wool into cloth) or lower level gear atleast when i played, equal quality gear or somewhat close to your gear was hard to garantee 100% if not impossible to get it every time it depends in the event pop up and if you hit the right skill on them

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

You can HQ everything in FFXIV now. That macro I showed, will HQ every item without fail.

[@StellarJay77]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork lot of IF's to that statement. For current top tier gear, that macro will work only IF you're using HQ crafting gear, IF it is melded properly, and IF you have a meal and potion buff applied and it most certainly is NOT 100% guaranteed every time when you factor in the individual sub components you have to craft first, so unless you're just buying those HQ sub components from other crafters you have to make them. All of which require you to have gone through the process of either making all that stuff yourself or spending massive amounts of earned currency to buy from another crafter. That also does nothing for the expert crafting system in FF14 which has an entirely different set of rewards. The RNG component of the FF14 crafting system pretty much emulates any real world hand crafting process that is fraught with potential for flaws. The actual skills are intuitive and are essentially a mirror of the combat system in FF14 just for crafting. There's an optimal path through a crafting rotation that can be repeated once a crafter figures it out, or you can short cut it and look online for the optimal path from other crafters, but it requires a player to think and plan what the best strategy is to complete a craft as there is more than one way through any given rotation.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

So yes, there are a lot of ifs. And if you have all those ifs that macro is 100% going to HQ every time without fail.

[@RR-lz1zf]

usualy i spend a lot of time on crafting in mmorpg. what i want is a system rewarding skills and giving freedom (like some tabletop rpg). crafting hundred of useles items like a bot is outdated and boring. more quality, less quantity

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I agree with this.

[@baska-]

Minigames are beautiful, amazing, interesting and fun while it's a novelty. After two months they turn into a chore, most people find it annoying and wish it didn't exist, especially if you have to craft hundreds or thousands of items to master a Crafting profession. In my opinion they should invest time in designing the best Artisan (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) system possible and forget about minigames. Regarding your ideas and EVE's system, they're a good inspiration but Intrepid should be careful not to make the Artisan system too complex generally speaking, as I believe that can turn into a negative aspect. I would like Ashe's Artisan system to have the following features: - predictable: as little RNG as possible most of the time; - easily understood: straightforward yet rich, no unnecessary and excessive complexity; - deep and interdependent: make everything matter, some resources more than others, but everything can be useful; - controlled risk (RNG): let people take optional risks in every Artisan profession, RNG can be an okay mechanic in an MMORPG if done right; - meaningful risk (RNG): don't add RNG to make something "harder", do it to make the game better; - user friendly/intuitive/practical/convenient: it's hard to find games where sometimes all you wanna do is log in to gather/process/craft, but if Intrepid is able to make every Artisan profession interesting, rewarding and *fun,* it could become the GOAT in this department surpassing nostalgic games such as SWG, RuneScape, EVE, EQ2, etc. Lastly, I think they shouldn't add mini-games to any Artisan profession, maybe except fishing. However, if they do, it must be optional regardless of what it means in the gathering/processing/crafting.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Mini-games can be come such a chore so quickly, even Square Enix understands the crafting in FFXIV is bad so they gave people a bypass button.

[@peaceling9826]

❤

[@Sckullie]

Runescape crafting!

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Maybe, but I think we need much more muchness.

[@Gamzrok]

Seems like quite a lot of time and effort for Intrepid to put into the crafting system. Sounds great, but I’m afraid it would be scope creep for them to add that now. That being said, I absolutely hate the one button crafting system because of how uninvolved it is, and while I tend to be partial towards mini games, I only have lower-level experience with them and understand the criticisms. I hope they make your system, but I hope it doesn’t cause months-year more of waiting as a result.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

This isn't so much an "Intrepid Thing" or an "Ashes of Creation" thing, but more for future games. Really just tossing ideas at the wall, seeing what sticks.

[@King_Russel]

We also might be lucky and intrepid have already added in something like this as we haven’t seen too much of the crafting system or heard about it either.

[@Appren2]

EVE Online has one of the best crafting systems in all MMOs. Minigames are awful - interesting the first ten times, then it just becomes a chore. EQ2's system comes to mind...

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I do agree Eve Online is probably the best system I've ever seen.

[@sp00l]

I don''t know, it wasn' crafting, but the radara/relic site hacking mini game was actually really really enjoyable!

[@ralmslb]

This idea has a problem on my view, a problem we suffer in society with capitalism, where the richer the crafters, the more infrastructure they have, more efficiency, more profit. On the market this would result on new crafters struggling to compete. I do like the idea of infrastructure and logistics, but would be useful to have some sort of skill based mini-game to add an x factor. And that mini-game doesn't need to be static and macro prone like FFXIV, but things that require people to point and click, click at the right time, etc. Think of a blacksmith making a sword, he needs to keep up with the iron temperature, know where to hit to mold it and when to hit, etc, conditions that are never 100% the same. But with experience you start to be good and have the ability to read the status of the material, etc, and know the best time to do X or Y.

[@ralmslb]

Just a note I forgot to mention, this mini-game would not only add the risk of completely failing the craft if you don't know what you are doing, loosing some mats in the process, but also affect the final item quality/grade.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

To be 100% honest pointing and clicking isn't a mini-game. Its an obstacle that will get boring very quickly. As far as the development of infrastructure this is true, which is why crafters would need to join pre-existing guilds to access their processing and crafting facilities, and then branch out on their own.

[@ralmslb]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork how isn't it a mini-game? Like those games where you have to find a path on a maze to "hack" / unlock a door, I consider those mechanics inside a game a mini-game.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

A game should be enjoyable not a task that you have to endure. That's why I don't see them as a mini-game. Pointing and clicking isn't enjoyable. Its the same as "this is immersive because I have to fill the water bucket" No, that's not immersive. That's pointing and clicking

[@sparkycjb]

For the Algorithm!!!

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

For the Honor of Greyskull

[@kluafoz]

Did we just become best friends?

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

Maybe

[@bobtower66]

I've always considered the act of gathering to be the mini game for crafting. I'm fine with the one button press and done. If they do make a mini game to the crafting act itself I hope it feels meaningful, like the makers mark idea would be. Especially like that idea because of the roll play it would add to the server. I just don't know how they would go about adding a mini game to the actual act of crafting without it feeling tedious.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

That is the big thing. What is meaningful?

[@bobtower66]

@@ParadoxGamingNetwork meaningful is different for everyone, but for me in this context I would want it to give me a sense of a lived in world or community. On a server with a locked in population of whatever size they wind up with, making a name for yourself can come with a lot of benefits. The idea of a makers mark would lend itself very well to that especially for someone who is attempting to become a well known crafter. I would probably scrap failed items just so the properly spelt mark would ensure people will be able to spread my name on the server. But this is what's meaningful to me, someone else might not engage with that aspect of a system or care if the mark fails. If people see no value to themselves with a minigames reward, I guess they better at least find it interesting in some way or fun. In the end I'm interested in seeing what the dev team come up with and would love to be a fly on the wall when they discuss it (i love the inside baseball stuff when it comes to game development). I've only played one game where the crafting system was a mini game where you actually had to do every act of the crafting process right down to the metallurgy. That was a text based mud, back in the 90's. It ended up having a similar problem that final fantasy has now, everyone used a macro once all the recipes and weights became known.

[@asgeirkvitvik6685]

yeah keep RNG out of crafting .. learn from EVE :)

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

I'm currently playing WarTales and nothing is more frustrating that missing one of the light ups during crafting.

[@filipfenix]

That being said, investing several hours of flying around nullsec trying to scan down a data/relic site, only to get extremely unlucky on the hacking minigame and get that perfect lvl5 can explode is ....bad. Really really bad.

[@ParadoxGamingNetwork]

That is true.