Building Prototypes Dan Gelbart part 17 of 18 High Accuracy

[@visnevskiscom]

Oh the joy of listening to people that really know what they are talking about. Thank you!

[@pturcanu]

Yup! What a treasure!

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

Getting rarer these days, or maybe just harder to find as one has to sort through much more bad information. The paradox of the information age has hit us… there is simultaneously more good information and more bad information immediately available.

[@juliansutherland6364]

I worked for Dan’s company, Creo, for almost 10 years. In addition to his genius, he has a great sense of humor. He loves a great joke and tells a great joke. He had me in stitches one evening. Nice to listen to you again Dan.

[@aion2177]

Creo you mean the simulation/CAD software? Or something else? Ive heard is the best at what it does :) OMG this guy's a legend !

[@Ian_Wallace.]

No, the company that makes the software is PTC. Dan's company was printing technologies and is now part of Kodak.

[@peteroleary9447]

I (stupidly) turned down a chance to work for Creo sometime around 2000. They were doing direct-to-plate technology, and I would've been involved in IT on the sales side. I was moonlighting as an MCSE, though I'm actually a journeyman Tool & Die Maker, trained in the European tradition. Till now, I had no idea that Dan ran Creo. Had I known then what I know now, I would've jumped at the chance. His videos warm my heart because they show in a beautiful way how a logical mind expresses a trained imagination - how fundamental geometry manifests in real world structures. Dan doesn't know it, but I'm one of his biggest fans and would've worked for him for free!

[@petersaupe7455]

I should have gone to bed hours ago but I am mesmerised by your videos. Brilliant.

[@giuliobuccini208]

same happened to me too! :) :) :)

[@jakob3065]

same here 👋

[@jorgeo4483]

I cant sleep now, I'm not sure if my bed is completely plane.

[@jazzvickyvenkat]

Dan you made 18 parts of prototyping which are gems. I have never encountered such beautiful presentations which are good and practical. It speaks volume of your experience. Thanks for your effort in teaching us and sharing your knowledge. We are indebted to you.

[@BIGWIGGLE223]

I love listening to this guy. He has a way of talking that even though he has a strong accent, I can understand more of what he is saying and trying to explain than anyone speaking my native tongue.

[@cyrex686]

Accent makes him sound smarter, opposite of southern or Indian accent.

[@lubos4639]

I wish I could have worked for one of your companies Dan. Fantastic to have you as a master at least like this at a distance. Nothing can replace experience in the learning process, and I can only thank you for sharing this experience with all of us !

[@thechipwelder1253]

"The reversal method" - suddenly made me appreciate the math I learned in School. Thanx for a great video.

[@movax20h]

One of the best videos on high accuracy on the KZbin. I wish Dan made a video on how surface plates and master plates are manufactured to be as accurate as they are. I understand principles, but it still feels like magic to me.

[@dgelbart]

Read the book "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" by Moore.

[@c5h5nino24]

More videos please!! A video about your Moore jig boring machine would be awesome!

[@gentlemandude1]

Amazing! So articulate and erudite. What a pleasure to learn from Mr. Gelbart. This channel is highly underrated.

[@ProfRonconi]

This is the most interesting and helpful video I've ever watched on precision machining. I wish much more than 47,445 people had watched it. So much info, so clearly presented.

[@trentw26]

Something that has always intrigued me about surface grinding is how you can achieve high accuracy with the grinding wheel wearing down.

[@dgelbart]

By using the "sparkout" passes at the end, where metal removal is minimal and wheel wear is minimal (about a micron).

[@trentw26]

I see. That answer is so simple... I believe I was just over-complicating the idea of it... Thank you, sir.

[@andrewmattie9713]

Dan Gelbart, a living treasure.

[@roborob767]

As a 35yr journeyman toolmaker... This dude's legit. Dan's knowledge is unsurpassed.

[@Watchyn_Yarwood]

You, sir, are incredible! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us! I have really enjoyed this series and I hope there is more to follow.

[@bobvines00]

Dan, thank you very much for this series of videos. I've learned about many new (to me) techniques. I just wish that you had many more of these fantastic videos!

[@klebbonk4493]

these are great videos. Stuff no one really teaches but that are very useful in practice

[@KK10155]

man I'm wishing I was a student in your class or something, the amount of knowledge beaming out of you seems huge!

[@ericy4522]

This level of accuracy is something I'll likely never need to use personally, but I feel vicariously more knowledgeable! The principles will be useful even on a much coarser scale though. Thanks so much for sharing your expertise Dan!

[@2mrRB]

Amazing video, very well presented. I really appreciate you sharing parts of your knowledge with us.

[@franklinblazek25]

Just came across this channel it’s great! More videos please and thank you

[@duobob]

Excellent series, Dan. More, please!

[@211212112]

That reversal method is so simple in theory and some applications yet powerful. It also can get complex when built upon. I’d like to hear a lot more about it.

[@lyndonthan4350]

Agree with the other comments. What a joy to be given real knowledge. Thank-You.

[@materialsguy2002]

I have watched this video several times, but I just noticed that beautiful anvil on the bench. Nice! Many of the subtleties you discuss also apply to metallographic sample preparation, at least to the first few steps (grit paper). Thanks.

[@dgelbart]

Hard to see in video, but the sides of the anvil have a 4mm layer of lead bonded to them with contact cement. This kills the "ringing" of the anvil and makes using it much quieter.

[@lekoman]

Dan Gelbart Man, there’s just nothing you don’t have a trick for! :D

[@_IN_OD_]

Love your videos, a wealth of information! Thank you!

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

Permatex Prussian blue gear marker for checking ring and pinion gear contact points is what you need for checking your lap surface. There’s yellow gear marking paste as well it shows up well.

[@martinda7446]

This series is wonderful. Thank you. If you passed by the 'Flexible' one thinking ? Go look at that now. Very cool. So much knowledge.

[@jeffpittel6926]

Thanks Dan for explaining scraping,,,didn't quite understand it before watching your video.

[@BuckCalabro]

Magnificent explanation of the underlying principles. Kudos for your clear explanation accompanied with examples

[@AffordBindEquipment]

surface plate with an anvil in the background! We've come a long way!

[@bonjell6100]

lol, I thought so too. What a beautiful pair!

[@AffordBindEquipment]

@MichaelKingsfordGray I'm sure the horses are relieved!

[@MrCharliejaera]

This is EPIC!!! Thank you!!!

[@scudinthemud]

Truly excellent series of videos. I wish there were more people with your gift for interesting explanations - colleges would be full of keen future engineers.

[@jimpartridge9634]

I would love to see Dan and Abom (Adam Booth) make some things. They are so different, and yet amazing amounts of practical knowledge in each.

[@deconteesawyer5758]

Abom and logger Wade maybe.

[@randomdude1786]

how have I missed Dan Gelbart videos, in all I do is search youtube for stuff like this and Im just finding this now in 2018 bottom line thanks dan for sharing this this is the good stuff by the way I subscribed in like the first 30 seconds of watching this video

[@theomnipresent1]

That power scraper reminds me of those oscillating multi-tools which have become popular for cutting & sanding. Do you see where I'm going...

[@scambroselauntrellus3681]

This guy dabbles in precision.

[@ThePhilbox]

Wow......mind blowing. Rarely have i learned so much in such a short time. Kids should be learning this. We would have more engineers and machinists and fewer poli sci grads...ps, i'm a poli sci grad :( echhh

[@georgiojansen7758]

its a shame you were not my teacher at scool, VERY enlightning , thanks

[@antigen4]

interesting - we were never taught in school about the coefficient of sliding (or even static) friction being a function of the surface plane smoothness!

[@norman1826]

Dan....Fantastic work Sir

[@lucianovasco4654]

Very good, ìm learning só much with you.

[@sasdgalikew]

11:39 Even the plugs on the wall are impressed.

[@genkidama7385]

lol. you deserve the medal of obersvation.

[@stratocaster1greg]

thank you sir for sharing your knowledge!

[@MichaelHolloway]

16:38 - hydrodynamic lift - add velocity and molecules change state! Boundary layers are fascinating to me.

[@aerobyrdable]

I love this guy. Every time he talks about something like this he says the words "and it turns out, it's actually very easy!"... and I die a little inside XD

[@JaapGrootveld]

Wow Dan! You should do someting whit this tallent. I'm sure you'd go far. Keep it up.😉

[@Jonas_Aa]

To this guy everything is round, nothing is straight or flat.

[@philipebarcellos]

Fascinating !

[@cyrus304]

Really interesting, Thank you.

[@therealspixycat]

Shearing is like welding I think: due to the flow of the cutted metal due to shearing force will cause the metal to deform

[@VitaliyTym]

It is interesting how were made first machine tools when there were no machine tools

[@MarioMoreno82]

love it.... he i a real genius,...

[@Tadesan]

Jesus. Standing in front of that Moor machine and that granite.

[@carlcrott8582]

Is there a specific term I can search to find out more about the hydrodynamic properties ( mass, velocity, surface area ) which you talked about regarding air-bearings?

[@dgelbart]

Search under "air bearings", "aerostatic bearings", "hydrostatric bearings" and "tribology".

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

9 is the magic number when it comes to degrees.

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

Have you seen graphite plate air bearings? Porous graphite allows the air to pass thru the entire surface.of the steel ball.

[@kulls13]

My mind is blown.

[@materialsguy2002]

Can you do a series about dimensional metrology, please?

[@aryesegal1988]

Of the entire series, this is my fav. video :] Thanks for sharing all this information! Achieving high accuracy in manufacturing is something that always fascinated me. Could you recommend any books\textbooks that teach this stuff? What is the name of the subject dealing with these kind of questions? Metrology? Thanks once again, you are an asset, Sir!

[@dgelbart]

Yes, search under metrology. Always good to read the classic "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" by Moore.

[@jeffpittel6926]

Dan, your the Steve Hawkins of machining.

[@lucianovasco4654]

Gostaria de saber se o Sr poderia me ensinar como fazer um esquadro de alta precisão usando apenas uma mesa de granito de precisão? Muito obrigado.

[@JoeMalovich]

Lapped Tapers are used for propellers: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKDdmWeAn9SKo5Y

[@petersaupe7455]

8.24 real engineers hands.

[@robertpeters9438]

WOULD IT WORK TO CALIBRATE WAYS ON A LATHE TO USE A LASER AND A FOLLOWER THAT RIDES THE WAYS AND GRINDS THEM TO FOLLOW THE LASER. OR WOULD IT WORK TO GRIND A REFERENCE SURFACE ON THE WAYS TO USE THROUGHOUT THE MACHINE'S LIFE FOR A FOLLOWER TO REGRIND THE WAYS?

[@dgelbart]

It is easier to grind the ways on a conventional surface grinder, the way they are made in first place.

[@rightsidelanechoice7702]

I think it’s called “co efficient of friction “ the surface contact

[@PutJizniMetallista]

Veri veri good ! Лайк !👍

[@soldernerdcom]

Thanks for the video. However, I've noticed that you don't deburr the part before checking it again on the suface plate. Did you just skip that step in order to keep the video short? Or how do you deal with that in practice?

[@dgelbart]

I tend to press it hard to the granite and "wipe" it first. If there are burrs left they show up strongly as bright spots. A better practice is "stoning", going over the surface with a very flat stone. Thanks for noticing!

[@t76d777f6d]

Hi Dan Gelbart, What are your thoughts on including the 3-2-1 blocks in the first measurement? Is it better to have the results for f(x), g(x), and tilt factor?

[@dgelbart]

taiden It makes no difference for straightness, as you need to move the gage anyways, unless you're also intrested in parallelism, not just straightness. In this case use the same 1-2-3 block setting for both measurements.

[@williamhinrichs6558]

Oh man, that moore machine in the background... Us that a UMM?

[@-manxman]

tip - surface grind using magnetic clamp

[@snowman1185-v]

NICE!

[@douro20]

When Kitamura scrapes the sliding surfaces on their machines they only use manual scraping...no power scraping is allowed!

[@Simon28298]

Hi M. Gelbart, I need to work on a LVDT finger style gage head probe model 599-981 from brown and sharpe with standard 5 pins DIN connector. I notice that my 1020 gage amplifier can handle lot of different brand of gage head by adjusting the gain, mitutoyo, tesa etc... but I need to change a broken POT at the end of the cable. Without it I can get the accuracy if I adjust the gain in one increment but it doesn't transfer to the other increment mode. Do you know the electrical relation between the POT in the cable connector and the coil in the gage head? Thanks again.

[@aubreymatthews1729]

would be interesting to know how they make the flat granite surface.

[@user-1281]

Take three granite surfaces and rub them together. It's what I remember anyway.

[@TheRainHarvester]

If I get f+g= 2,4,2,1,2,3 (1=dip,3=bump) f-g= 2,2,2,3,2,1 (3=bump,1=dip) Then solving: f = 2,3,2, 2,2,2 (3 is high spot) g = 0,1,0,-1,0,1 (1 is high spot) (-1 is dip) (But I think the ground level is from the base of the dial indicator - not the point on the table under the object being measured.) How do you get the dial indicator to sit on the table on a single 1cm spot? Otherwise it's measuring an average across the points at which it touches an uneven table. I'm left wondering, what do you do with this info? Do you scrape these areas? Then repeat over and over? It seems like you'd never achieve an accurate flat surface because the measurement couldn't be scrapped accurately enough.

[@dgelbart]

It is true that the dial indicator averages the error of the table over the area of the indicator base, but this does not matter because lapped areas, like a granite table, have the profile changing very slowly, A machined part can have a profile which varies fast, for example because of clamping distortion during machining. You can easily get to sub-micron accuracy using the reversal method, corrections are done by lapping or scraping.

[@TheRainHarvester]

@@dgelbart in practice, does one mark the high spots every cm, then hope to scrape by that amount, then repeat? It seems like you'd need to measure every mm to get a flat surface (actually even more than that). It seems like it would be easier to just lap the piece on a flat granite, until the ink is uniform. But maybe this technique is only used when a flat master isn't available? Thanks for sharing your knowledge to the world!

[@TheRainHarvester]

I could envision a servo driven measurement to grab the error values along the piece every 0.01mm, followed by an ultrasonic scraping mechanism to touch the workpiece at the high spots for a predetermined length of time. Then repeat the servo driven measurements, and ultrasonic scraping.

[@dgelbart]

When parts reach these precisions (in the um range) there are no "high frequency" errors, as they were previously ground or lapped. The errors are very slow changing. All you need is to mark the few high zones, lap or scrape and re-test. The whole thing, to get to sub-micron, takes 1-2 hours if you start with a ground or lapped surface. @@TheRainHarvester

[@omeganter]

Amazing series!. Have you ever lapped your own granite super flat surface? do you think it´s possible to do in a garage?

[@dgelbart]

omeganter I never lapped granite but lapped many other materials. Possible do it not only in a garage but even on a desert island, even without a reference plate. That's how Whitworth did it in 1830: he scraped three plates until any two mated perfectly. This guarantees all three are flat. People who ground optical mirrors did it for centuries. Why do it is a different question.

[@omeganter]

Ok, thank you Mr. Gelbart, maybe not a great saving after all the hours necessary (and the unavoidable errors of a beginner), but it´s interesting as a way to learn the fundamentals of metrology. Do you recommend any old book on instrument fabrication and precision machining? (I guess early 1900s will have the most interesting )

[@dgelbart]

omeganter A really good book is "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" by the Moore company. Expensive, but can be found in public/university libraries. www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=12712036525&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dfoundations+of+mechanical+accuracy

[@omeganter]

Dan Gelbart Thank you very much again. I´ve found this link to the a PDF of the book www.totallyscrewedmachineshop.com/documents/FoundationsofMechanicalAccuracy.pdf

omeganter Great find. Thank you fine man. Dan Gelbart Thank you for great videos hope we see them more and make this world a bit better place.

[@victoryfirst2878]

When you machine using a shaper the cutter only cuts just one spot and does not give the metal a chance to warm up and expand and then change location and moves down. This is one of the biggest things that causes inaccuracy when using the milling machine. Just saying.

[@Simon28298]

Hi M. Gelbart, since you are in this field of study, I'am wondering if you know a Canadian compagny how achieve the same kind of work of professional instruments. I'm working as a precision machinist on Hauser Jig Grinder and Jig Bore but my company are not really equipe to go beyond +/- .0001 and I want to work in an environnement where I can push my knowledge of metrology and understand the physics rules related to high accuracy machining.

[@dgelbart]

Nothing in the west part of Canada, maybe in east coast.

[@Simon28298]

Thanks,

[@coldion1]

The machine shops at the Canadian National Research Council build instruments and standards for the NRC's dimensional metrology group. The main shop is in Ottawa but it might be worth checking out what NRC institutes are in your area.

[@Simon28298]

Thanks a lot for the info, I'm not so far from Ottawa, I'll contact them this week.

[@mikee6198]

Thank You for your videos. How did you achieve the Ultra-High accuracy on your lathe. I would like to build a lathe to mill large diameter tubes. I would also like to be able to do internal lathing as well. I would like to be able to exceed 1 thousandth of an in on a 36in ID tube. ... Thanks Dan

[@dgelbart]

+Mike E Possible but would need a massive machine. If depth of bore is less than 2-3' look at an internal grinder like an old Heald machine.

[@mikee6198]

+Dan Gelbart Thanks, I will look into it. I don't think the OD is that hard but the ID is the challenge. I was thinking of using a cutting grit paste 300-1200 with a rigid end balloon stint filled with a non-Newtonian fluid like Oobleck. As the flexible honing drum spins up the fluid becomes rigid, By Lapping the spinning drum in the tube the sleeve would clean itself. Normally tube lapping is done with a expanding helical cut drum.

[@xXJosafat07Xx]

i love this guy, but sandpaper on a granite plate and dirty parts ( chips of the part ) on a surface plate hurt a little. @ 13:23 - 13:32

[@dgelbart]

The plate I'm using the sandpaper on is a lapping plate. My main granite plate, seen in the early part of the video, is kept spotlessly clean nd dust free.

[@mgbrv8]

The generic principle you spoke of is fascinating. How is it pronounced? I heard reverse osmesotes. But I cant seem to find it, thank you for posting these wonderful videos

[@dgelbart]

Dave Hetrick It is called "reversal method" (sorry about my funny accent) . Even if you know the name you'll find very little. Many of the topics in these videos are hard to find on the net.

[@ebrewste]

Nice explanation of the reversal method. If someone is interested in the same idea in another field, look up "differential signaling" in electronics (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signaling). The unknown straightness of the reference surface is the noise source in differential signaling.

[@zamplify]

Around 25 minutes in he starts talking in calculus 🤯

[@nadjibouyahia3980]

When expérience and clevers talk we dont feel the Time

[@SoWe1]

As far as I ever was told, scraping does not make an "accurate" surface in the sense you described at the beginning of this video. Instead it makes it so that there's a pattern of evenly high high spots with deeper pockets between them. Also I don't know what you mean that surface grinding doesn't produce accurate surfaces the way you described. I think it very much does. And your lapping - it relies on having something that is already 100% accurate, and that thing in time will become less accurate of course. Yes I know the three plates method thank you.

[@airsoftsniper108]

sorry to bother you with another question,but I noticed when you were lapping using the emery cloth,you placed the cloth on your surface plate. Does that scratch the surface plate?

[@dgelbart]

airsoftsniper108 Only the back of the emery paper/cloth touches the plate. Use a drop of water to make the cloth stick. If there is no movement there will be no scratching. The granite plate I use for lapping is not the main plate I use for measurements.

[@sanjaydubey9973]

+Dan Gelbart I saw a documentary as a kid on discovery channel about how Guns were made in old times, they used carbon black coming out of kerosene lamp for paint and mated the parts, the part was scraped till the carbon black was interacting with the surface uniformly.

[@MrCharliejaera]

❤️🙏

[@vsssa1845]

You want experience true level Morty, Go to Dan Gilbart.

[@movax20h]

What about EDM? Would cutting a flat using EDM make it smooth and flat enough to have this zero wear properties?

[@dgelbart]

Will still require scraping or lapping.

[@movax20h]

Dan Gelbart thanks. It is fascinating topic to me. / Not a machinist.

[@StellanHaglund]

Hi wouldn't wire edm be an option to do linear air bearings? if they are not to long of course.

[@dgelbart]

Wire edm does not allow to form the shallow pockets needs .

[@StellanHaglund]

Dan Gelbart not sure what you mean by pockets, do you mean pockets on the surface?

[@StellanHaglund]

Dan Gelbart if you mean for the lubricant, doesnt the small craters made from the sparks help with that?

[@dgelbart]

I meant the pockets (about 25x25x0,02mm) needed for the air bearings.

[@MikenasK]

recommend....

[@tylerhensley2312]

I would hate to live in this guys world, nothing is good enough do this guy.

[@rolandjollivet38]

These videos are really good, but whoever did the recording did them an injustice! Pleez, sort your audio out.. high precision....

[@materialsguy2002]

Thanks, Dan. Metrology is becoming arcane and witchcraft these days. Can you elucidate?

[@mattbockman]

What is the name of the gage used to measure the straight edge? I searched google for a "die gage" but couldn't find what you have there. What is it card?

[@dgelbart]

mattbockman "dial gage" or "dial indicator".

[@mattbockman4353]

Dan Gelbart I think that I'm confusing the dial indicator with the other device. I found from Mitutoyo's website something called a "Linear Gage", which looks similar to the device you have on the anodized red indicator stand. See here: ecatalog.mitutoyo.com/Linear-Gage-LGB-Series-542-0001mm-C1685.aspx Is this the same as what you're using? I've not seen such a gage until your video. Thanks for introducing me to them. Matt

[@dgelbart]

Matt Bockman In this video I'm indeed using the Mitutoyo linear gage (LVDT gage) but you can do the same test with a regulat dial indicator. In general, for high precision work an LVDT is convenient and for even higher precision you need to switch to a capacitance gage, which can measure down to 1nm (0.000001mm).

[@sidekick3rida]

Albert, who?

[@kenjohnson3703]

Hot wheels cartoon for toddler

[@jimc4731]

Too bad your close ups are shown too quickly and out of focus. JIM

[@eglintonflats]

So slooooow