Burn in for DACs

How long does it take to properly burn in a PS Audio DAC?

[@AnalogueGround]

As an engineer, I’d be very concerned if brand new high quality electronic components were changing in value after several hours and I’d also be surprised if that happened and always produced a positive effect in a piece of equipment!!

[@tubefreeeasy]

Do you engineers ever buy equipment, plug it in and ever notice that the sound improves?

[@hugobloemers4425]

As a process engineer in the semiconductor industry, I know this is a matter of fact. And we all have to deal with it where it has an impact on us. The always positive effect, should be clear to you as engineer. And it works as follows. If a new product shits to one direction within the first hours of its life and this shift has been characterized, the design can be tuned that the device in question will shift towards the center of its specifications. And it is the center of the device specifications that OEMs use to design their equipment. As electronic device manufacturer you could also design it so it will drift out of spec. But who would want to do that?

[@AnalogueGround]

@@tubefreeeasy The brain processes what the human ear hears in a predictable manner. In nature our animal instincts make us naturally suspicious of a ‘new sound’ but soon learns to accept it - in other words it’s our perception that’s changing rather than the electronic components. You would never board an aircraft if you thought that electronic components were changing in value and its instrumentation wasn’t accurate until after several hundred hours. Granted, certain electronic components degrade over time (decades) and that can change how something sounds, which is usually bad! On a day to day basis my listening perspective changes - sometimes my system sounds amazing and other days not so. The important thing is to learn why this happens rather than subscribe to the burn-in or warm-up myth. I used to believe the warm up myth and could really hear a difference after leaving the amp on for half an hour; I even used to recommend it to people. Once I realised that the effect was a simple perceptual response to an expectation, the effect went away.

[@outolempinimi5165]

@@hugobloemers4425 Sounds interesting, you have any sources to investigate further?

[@hugobloemers4425]

@@outolempinimi5165 My initial reply seems to have vanished. Any way, semiconductor companies keep their cards close to their chest, but if you search the internet you are probably going to find stuff. Kemet is a top tier capacitor manufacturer and they have a good website with information about shelf life and capacitor forming and re-forming. That is a type of burn in and as such a proof of concept. And it is written such that general technical understanding is enough to get what they are talking about. You may have to browse that site to get to the information.

[@chungang7037]

But there is a new DAC on the market before I have even finished burning in the last one I bought! How can we be expected to find the right one?!! 🤣

[@AV84USA]

I’m curious, when high-end audiophile designers are making equipment, do they build it and let “burn in” for a week before deciding if it passes the sniff-test or if they have to rinse and repeat?

[@brucermarino]

This could so easily be tested by recording the DAC before and after several months and seeing if people can distinguish it. You could even put the comparison online. Alternatively, you could compare the before and after outputs with a null test. Finally, the sake of acoustic data clearly indicates that the auditory memory is both too short to make this comparison and also that one develops preferences after time. 20th century witchcraft for prophet is pretty depressing. Thanks!

[@goldensdomain]

That level of analysis has been done multiple times and it has shown there to be no difference.

[@brucermarino]

@@goldensdomain Thanks, my point exactly! I was just hoping to sneak in and open a few minds.

[@jimromanski2702]

Question for you Paul: I hear many people talk about how electronics need to burn in to sound their best. But why is that ALWAYS the case? Isn't possible that some electronics that were precisely designed with capacitors, resistors and transistors etc. do not sound better after burn in. Isn't possible that after burn in some components change a little bit and that takes them away from the precise specs that were ideal? I'm just not convinced that everything sounds better after burn in. And when does burn is stop and things start wearing out?

[@harackmw]

crapola on the internet indeed...🤤

[@manitoublack]

You could test this quantitatively: Simply take a new DAC and play a song, recording the output into audacity. Then repeat after some 100h of play time. (Note: you'd probably want to take a few recordings to account for any 'run to run' variability.) If the wave forms are identical, it's a myth, if they're different then it's true... The same testing can be used to show that a budget DVD player outputs the same bitstream as a multi $$$ CD transport over Toslink/HDMI.

[@NoEgg4u]

Our host's digestive operations do not seem to be working "synergistically".

[@Nefty_]

I was wondering what’s your take with your huge experience, on this, thank you very much Paul.

[@ctbcubed]

Maybe the "burn in" has more to do with your expectation that the $8K device you just purchased should sound a certain way. It's most likely different than the equipment you replaced and it takes time to become accustomed to the "new" sound. At that price point, I would expect to be blown away within a few minutes of power on and if not, it goes back.

[@carlosalvarez7445]

LOL... it is adorable how many people dispute what the maker of a product suggests about it 😅 Anyway... To the dismay of some, 100 hrs of burn in for the R2R Denafrips DACs is recommended by the maker. And in my experience it did change at maybe 80 hr and now at more than 200 sounds magical with the Sprout 100 😊

[@Roosville1]

I blame the first Audiophile, Dylan Thomas, (Under Milk Wood) when he wrote "And you alone can hear the invisible starfall, the darkest-before- dawn minutely dewgrazed stir of the black, dab-filled sea" I love that people get into a discussion level beyond all engineering measurement, and then stick the signal into a box with a cone, magnet and coil which _still_ resembles Mr Kellogg’s loudspeaker patent made literally 99 years ago. Look at your speaker specs, variability, distortions, inadequacy, and then argue the toss and tart around with the mains fuse and cable, it's a nasty joke.

[@fullranger3435]

Not at all. A speaker takes all previous distortions and infidelities of the signal and simply augments them, adding even more of its own. Its own being the highest does not mean it cannot sound better with less previous distortion. And in fact, it does.

[@AmerDiwan]

I disagree with Paul that a DAC would be at 80% after 2-4 days of usage...so that implies that when you just turn on a new DAC it is

[@reasoned007]

those damn hiccups

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

A week will do it. Depending on the product, it may continue to evolve in small subtle ways. I use a lot of Black Gate capacitors in my DAC. They are notorious for continuing to evolve the sound over 100s of hour. So I just leave it on.. for years. :)

[@edd2771]

We are on a roll this week. Tomorrow: power conditioners and stay tuned Friday for a discussion of those blocks that hold your wires off the floor.

[@36karpatoruski]

Don’t forget the psychoacoustically tuned dust cover for improved harmonic convergence on your turntable.

[@harackmw]

And listening only when the stars align off the grid with a solar powered cabin at least 100 miles from any power lines.

[@mat_v]

@edd2771 why are you guys always watching and commenting on these videos? Go watch Amir and be happy there.

[@edd2771]

@@mat_v I’ll do as I please. You go ahead and do the same

[@mat_v]

If you hit the three dots while browsing videos you can select “don’t recommend this channel” and all your problems will be fixed.

[@spandel100]

Try having a green smoothie for breakfast Paul...wont give you indigestion issues 😁

[@joshuaford4460]

Burn in is predominantly used by most companies to get consumers to breeze past their return windows. Even with generous return windows it takes full advantage of placebos effect on peoples ears (where the real burn in happens), as consumers may stick with a product after putting in the effort to integrate into their setup, even if it offers no tangible improvement. Reforming of old, unused, electrolytic capacitors could maaaybe qualify as burn in if you stretch, but it most certainly doesnt apply to new equipment, nor other types of capactitors. Reforming may help salvage a capacitor thats lost its oxide layer in a vintage piece of kit, but that capactior is not gonna beat the same capacitor fresh off the production line with a fresh oxide layer. You would think the companies that supposedly care about burn in would burn in their equipment as part of a QC process before shipping if it offered any tangible benefit, no? I sure as hell would not settle for a piece of gear that sonically changes rapidly with usage as a consumer, id rather my stuff be built to last at the specs i bought it for.

[@petekutheis3822]

I've always thought this too. Hundreds of hours of burn in is unacceptable. It will take many people an entire year or more, and most are not willing to silent play their system 24/7 for weeks at a time. If burn in is "real" then manufacturers need to sell burned in product. I believe it is not real. I do believe synergy and getting the right components behaving well with each other and also room layout and treatment are all real.... but again.. burn in...no I don't believe it.

[@Laz_Arus]

Burn-in = the time required to convince oneself the new kit was worth it! Isn't it amazing that the folks who believe in this myth always think the sound gets better and never worse? Logically one would expect that if "burn-in" is somehow changing component values, then there would be instances where those components would change to a value outside the tolerance the designers set for the circuitry, thus rendering the design suboptimal. But NO! You never read about THAT happening.

[@tubefreeeasy]

What if we can call, non electrically charged virgin steel, a brand new cable? After metal wire has been casted, we imagine there are micro cracks due to metal extrusion. What if, a wave of electricity buzzes its flow of energy through the cable? In a way, there’s a flow of conditioner that’s working to fill the cracks of metal wiring. Let’s think metal melts with heat or even causes buzzing in metal while you’re plugged into the wall. That’s a form of conditioning. That, plus resistors and capacitors are also being conditioned. Movement of speaker driver materials are allowed to slowly condition with a constant energy flow. Exercised with electricity when playing music or noise. Conditioning is also going on when your system is idle. All these vibrations, within time is conditioning and solidifying or loosening up your cables and speaker drivers. Of course sound is getting better because conditioning is going on. Think of electrical signal like spreading oil on your arms. Conditioning is going on. Only, you shouldn’t over-spread too much conditioner at once or your new drivers may tear. It’s not in your head. Your electrical components are being massaged with electrical signal. The pores of wires are being allowed to fill up or solidify with time and buzz of signal.

[@hiresaudiocosta873]

You forgot to answer the 2nd half of the question. Yes there has to be a signal going through the unit. It can’t burn in just by being powered on. 😊

[@ShahidiSabri]

humm.... , burn in ?

[@markmeridian3360]

People have extremely bad memories for subtle audio differences heard days or even hours apart. To know if any of this has any merit whatsoever, you would need to perform a blind A/B comparison between a DAC that has already undergone Paul's recommended burn-in against an identical brand-new DAC. To my knowledge, this has never been done. Without that having been done it's not possible to say if anyone can reliably hear the difference. I'm always amazed at the claims made by so-called experts in audio that have no actual basis in fact.

[@babubabu12345]

Good information from Paul Sir 🙏

[@Yradex]

If it doesn’t sound right first time you plug it will never do 😢

[@ThinkingBetter]

No burn-in is needed for a DAC unless it is designed badly with capacitors involved in the signal path or includes tubes for some not very good reason.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Not needed to work, needed for the best sound

[@hugobloemers4425]

The burn- in process is asymptotic, so who is right as to how long it will take before it does not matter any more to our ears? But if you get a month to figure out if you like it or not, it is up to you to make most of it.

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

You need to be careful here. There are too many people on the internet who haven't a clue what asymptotic means. 😜That said, I agree with your statement. The rest of this is me admittedly shooting from the hip. . Capacitors, for example, which we all just love to talk about when discussing burn in have irregularities in their construction that lead to for example, a 1 ufd capacitor comprised of regions of varying efficacy but averaging out to that 1ufd value. This, I hypothesize, creates a group of differing capacitive reactances resulting in a blurred phase response (loosely analogous to jitter in a digital clock) compared to a more uniform plate structure which will act more like a simple 1ufd component. This uniformity is the result of charging, discharging and/or reverse charging cycles over a period of time actually moving and reshaping the elements of the part. Some people have discussed the subject of capacitors once burned in actually reverting to their pre-burned in state during storage. I don't know what to think of that. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has actual data concerning that or anything I mentioned. Thanks.

[@edd2771]

Paul, much like the power cord discussion yesterday, I’m afraid you are going to need to explain why, from an electronics, physics or some other empirical data perspective burn-in is beneficial and what exactly it is. Continuing to make these assertions without support is going to undermine your credibility.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Why would he need to do that? If you must have that information research further.

[@edd2771]

@@Pete.across.the.street He needs to do that, as I mentioned, if he wishes to preserve his credibility. I don’t need to research it because I’m not the CEO of a hifi company asking people to believe it on KZbin.

[@williamevans9426]

Hello Paul. I noticed that in this video your hiccups remained. If this was recorded in the same session as your other hiccup-afflicted answer, just ignore me. If, however, your hiccups have persisted into another day, you might want your family physician to check you over, just as a precaution! With best wishes from Oxford, UK.

[@craigellsworth3952]

As time goes on digital gets better and better, and for less moolah.

[@bencausey]

What the heck is up with all the hiccups? Wait until they’re gone next time, please.

[@ThinkingBetter]

What exact component will need burn-in? Resistors: no, inductors: no, semiconductors: no, transformers: no, wires: no, soldering: no, PCBs: no, capacitors: realistically also no, tubes: yes, but why put tubes in a DAC to begin with?

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Lol. Have you never bought a new piece of hifi?

[@flargosa]

You don’t have to burn-in. If you don’t like a dac in the first hour of listening, return it.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@Pete.across.the.street I’ve bought more than US$200,000 of audio gear

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@flargosa Yes, exactly right. If a DAC needs to burn in to work optimally, it must have some POS component in it.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

@@ThinkingBetter none of it new?

[@johnabedggood6280]

168 hours to a week.

[@andygrenn680]

Burn in could take months depending on how often you play your system. No play no burn in….

[@goldensdomain]

Digital equipment doesn't 'burn in'. There is no change in the hardware that occurs from running it for 24+ hours. What most people refer to as 'burn in' is simply the listener taking the time to acclimate to the sound of the device. Our brains like routine and habit, which makes it easy to jump to the negative when audio equipment sounds different. Taking the time to get used to the sound of new hardware allows us to get past this hurdle. If you still don't like the sound of new hardware after a dozen or so hours, then you can reliably say it's not for you and move on.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

That's not true

[@goldensdomain]

@@Pete.across.the.street Really? Then provide proof. Show me actual measurements from digital hardware that show any kind of meaningful difference.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

@@goldensdomain yeah really. You've never measured it before?

[@goldensdomain]

@@Pete.across.the.street Yes, I actually have. As have many others and the results are readily available on the internet. Burn in of DACs does not exist.

[@darrellross8609]

Paul, My SMSL DO200 is amazing for the money. Cables matter. Best, D.

[@tubefreeeasy]

I notice burn in working when your equipment is on standby while playing a couple hours a day.

[@sidesup8286]

I have no doubt that burn in is real. Every time I turn my living room stereo on, and it is a good one that resolves virtually everything and is huge sounding, it keeps getting quite a bit more and more open and more and more clean & smooth sounding up until around the end of the second cd or the beginning of the third cd. People who only play 2 cds and then quit have never heard their stereo at its best. Warm up is real every time you turn your stereo on, and I've had plenty of other stereos, and they all did the exact same thing. Electrons moving through wires and stages and circuits is very complex, which not many on here are likely to even have even the foggiest about. There are fewer grains of sand on all the worlds beaches combined, than the amount of molecules in one drop of water. And electrons are a lot smaller than molecules. So let's not pretend that we understand all about what electrons do. Burn in is real.

[@chungang7037]

Dude....whatever you are on I need some...

[@edd2771]

The burn-in is in your brain

[@spandel100]

Thats why you never turn off your system...always keeps the harshness at bay.Yes...when metals and such in the circuitry get themselves sorted on a molecular level,after a short amount of use,things settle and then you are at the "as good as it can be"stage.This is science...not snake oil.

[@petekutheis3822]

@@spandel100 That and manufacturers want one to burn up their products quicker so replacement time comes about faster. Heat kills. I note Pass Labs even says to keep their phono preamps on continuously. Well mine is in a well vented area and gets hotter than some of my damn amps. Lucky the thing sounds stellar. Probably more stellar than a STELLAR...haha

[@spandel100]

@@petekutheis3822 Pete,I have had my amps since the 90's.Nothing is worn out,still sound good to me 👍

[@crapmalls]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@spacemissing]

I'll give you burn-in. I think I'm going to have a small branding iron made so I can mark audio BS-ers. You want it on your tongue or on your forehead?

[@googoo-gjoob]

living is easy with eyes closed...misunderstanding all *YOU* see.

[@filipviljamaasvensson]

Wow. Hope you feel better soon.

[@spandel100]

You should talk to someone...

[@maxhirsch7035]

Hey, missingspace, that's a severe degree of hostility- although you may regard the anonymity of internet comments sections as a "safe space" to express it, you're a troubled one.

[@alekhidell3644]

I'm skeptical of the idea of "burn-in." It's far too subjective. Show me some actual quantitative data that proves it (and I'm not sure how you would get that), and I'll believe it. Otherwise there are too many variables involved: your mood, your memory, and so on.

[@paulozavala3232]

Whether burn in is real or not! What i dont understand! Whats the hurry? When you buy a brand new car you drive ut like a baby first month. No need to hurry! Just enyoy the first days and just let it sing in time….

[@wellseverett5128]

Wait a cotton pickin' minute! Since the so called "audiophile" is worried all about the specs. Example, an amplifier with 0.0002 % THD is crap and one with 0.00005 - 0.0001 % is the pinnacle of technology and worth the extra $2k. Beee-Esssss. Let's turn that 'of course it is ' for the burn-in into actual test equipment terms. Are the semiconductors and passive components hand picked and pre-burned in? I highly think definitely not. Will after that ~ 24 hours, filtering and coupling capacitors 'burn-in' the same? Nah. Did the design team build the prototypes and dial in the circuitry to a tee. And then after the so called 'burn-in' determine that component values needed to be further selected? And further. After those components were chosen when the values were changed from initial design. Does that mean that now every single piece of your audio system will have to "float" into specs (Burn-In)? "It's okay Charlie. Even though i sounds like garbage now. Give it a few days". Come-on-now!! Dude! Let's prove it. Crack open your DAC and let the Chinese air vent. Set it up on a test bench. Hook your test and evaluation instruments to it. And show everyone the effects of a 24-72 hour burn-in. If there is much, if any difference in performance. We have problems. Big big ones! I vote we do the Nike thing. Nooo. Not with grape juice on an island. Just do it. "Oh, my Tayo Zhukinaki O2 free $2000 'speaker wires just sound so wonderful after a week of 'burn-in'". (psst Chuck. When the copper came out of the argon shielding gas at the smelter. And was pulled into strands and wound into cable, then the vinyl sheath was molded over it. Do ya' think it was done outside the ISS in the vacuum of space?") Good God!!!

[@IvanEngler]

first video on this channel i do not like :(

[@geoff37s57]

More pseudo science nonsense.

[@WolfgangWimmer]

If you dont hear a difference after some days burn in, let´s say when changing to a new audio fuse, or changing Caps it´s not a problem. Most hear a differnce and not for everything there is science explanation.

[@filipviljamaasvensson]

Once a system, setup, and room (as in room treatment) reach a certain level, hearing differences like burn in and cables become easy. However if one has never experienced this for him/herself I can absolutely see what it sounds like bs.

[@hugobloemers4425]

I think you are confused with the Wu-Flu.

[@WolfgangWimmer]

@@hugobloemers4425 Electrical Components Burn-in Capacitors and Resistors: Some components in electronic devices, such as capacitors and resistors, might experience slight changes in their properties as they warm up and as electrical current flows through them initially. These changes could potentially stabilize the device's performance, but they are usually minor and within the designed operating parameters of the device. Mechanical Changes: In speakers, the burn-in effect might be more noticeable due to mechanical components, such as the speaker cone and surround, loosening up through use, potentially affecting the sound characteristics. This is more about physical break-in rather than electronic changes. While mechanical components in devices like speakers may exhibit a burn-in effect due to physical adjustments from initial use, the concept is less applicable to solid-state electronics like cables. Asshole!

[@yoddeb]

As usual, misinformation and homemade nonsense.

[@davroster]

Enjoy your $100 system... I wish I couldn't hear any difference

[@yoddeb]

@@davroster You might hear differences, but it is the hearing/brain adapting. Yes I will enjoy my $9000 genelecs, thanks.

[@hugobloemers4425]

Home made? I see an industrial setting.

[@tamstutz921]

Paul, please consider turning comments off.

[@ryanamendt8363]

Like that psycho from Tekton speakers?

[@funny0000000]

FIRST!!!!!!!

[@spacemissing]

DUUUUMMMMBBBBB!!!!!!!

[@funny0000000]

@@spacemissing You are not a nice person. I am a highly educated person. I built speakers since I was 10 years old. You are way out of line!!! If I was your parents I would be ashamed of you.

[@funny0000000]

@@spacemissing Shame on you for being mean!

[@NoEgg4u]

@@funny0000000 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXSmdWdmmqdgmbc

[@NoEgg4u]

@@funny0000000 "Shame on you for being mean!" Shame on you for spamming the channel's comment section.