C-172SP 'High Profile' Crash New Jersey

[@i.r.wayright1457]

As an A&P, I.A. who has maintained this type aircraft, the first thing I would look at is the exhaust system. They would have surely had the heater on as it is November and at 6,000' it would probably have been at or near freezing. The log book will be checked to see when the last muffler overhaul or replacement was accomplished. I recommend to all light plane pilots to carry one of the home carbon monoxide detectors in the cabin of the plane. They read out in ppm and go off at 50 ppm. $40 for a life saver is a no brainer. Just secure it somewhere near a heater outlet. Test it during preflight for battery condition.

[@daveminnigerode8274]

This seems plausible with the given data.

[@ToddDunning]

Aha! Good point. That would make sense - my money's on this until the toxicology report.

[@randominternet5586]

Very interesting - this plane is so docile / low performance - even if engine failed normally you can make it somewhere.

[@pokerbosscycler]

dont fly a cheap plane wtf..

[@josh3771]

@@pokerbosscycler I've lost more friends in expensive aircraft than cheap trainers

[@samaviation8790]

Thank you for this video, Juan. I am based out of Caldwell and was just speaking with Glen in front of his DA40 a few weeks ago. Tragic accident. Tom trained many pilots I know and everyone in my local pilot community is at a loss for what could have gone so wrong. This is definitely the closest to home any aircraft accident has been to me, and is a somber reminder of the respect flying commands. I'll be on the lookout for more information and hope we'll be able to get some more insight from investigators. Thanks again, keep up the great work, and fly safe.

[@zandercage6278]

Sam! Let’s fly sometime

[@BassGirlSusan1961]

Non pilot, but lifelong aviation enthusiast. How valuable channels like this must be to the aviation community. May those who are mourning their loss find comfort.

[@jimsilvey5432]

Try RC flying models.

[@edcassella8052]

Juan look at the flight track log from the previous flight! The ground speeds jump roughly 100 Kts!!! I think the Pilot(s) who operated this C-172 the day before need to be questioned.

[@gringoloco8576]

It does almost seem like some sort of airframe failure or a spin. Curious if truly ALL the parts are at the crash scene. The Mooney that went down in Minneapolis in August had part of it's elevator separated etc.

[@RetreadPhoto]

I can’t imagine anyone that owns a plane or rents a plane out for instruction or personal flights that doesn’t look at the ADS-B track of every single flight at check-in, for contractual and compliance purposes. There are a lot of stupid thrill junkie hotdogs out there.

[@BobBig007]

Thanks Juan for your video. A few things: I flew with Tom on two check rides when he worked with Airfleet. He is nothing but a quality instructor and was excellent. He was also very well respected. We are both big guys and laughed at the fact we were shoulder to shoulder in the 172. The crash in the Rockaway Mall. It was my understanding Tom was on a intro flight with a girl who wanted to learn aviation. They lost the engine and he put it down in the mall parking lot saving himself and the girl. My heart goes out to the Fischer family, wife Jodi and son Zack. God Bless you Tom. KCDW is also under the class B of Newark.

[@apprehensivetoe9811]

I knew Tom from the Airfleet Days as well. He was my instructor for a better part of my instrument rating. Very sad story.

[@paulryan5529]

Hi Juan! Tom was my present flight instructor at Fischer Aviation and I''m devastated to say the least!!! I was lucky enough to get to know Glen as well and we would always discuss how each others training was going on our walks out to the tarmac from Fischer Aviation's HQ. Both men were so committed to their love of aviation and they will be truly missed! Paul

[@tedmoss]

Sorry to hear about this accident. I took lessons at Sussex airport when I was 16 years old and helped recover (Linen, dope, thread, etc) some 22 Piper Cubs at that airport. They were a great bunch of guys.

[@gregoryknox4444]

I was a CFII teaching a Commercial/CFI applicant doing the stall spin lessons. He was a burly truck driver and we had been discussing how important rudder control is in slow flight. Well, I let him so the talking and he ignored the rudder ball. We flipped and spun. I had strongly put my elbow into his rib cage multiple times while yelling ... he would not let me pull the throttle back and we passed VNE by 30 kts. Finally, he let go of everything ....... we were at 400 ft agl when I got wings level and throttle to idle VNE +40. I was yelling "don't pull back to hard as I was pushing forward in the recovery. Good insight Juan.

[@ianmacneill8951]

I guess that the engine and prop were intact at the crash site? Thinking what if a prop blade sheared near the hub and the out of balance situation shook the engine from its mounts resulting in such an aft C of G movement that the aircraft was unflyable. Other than that carbon monoxide poisoning? Toxicology tests may resolve that possibility. Mighty unusual for such an out of control plunge in a C172.

[@BruceTGriffiths]

I was thinking they might have been doing spins and had some kind of issue.

[@edhawkins1]

One resident that lived near the accident scene said that they were outside all day and never heard an aircraft in distress or realize there was an accident until the rescue showed up. It was in a local news article.

[@johnwells9077]

I was flying my own aircraft not too far away in New Jersey at the same time this crash happened. It was a nice calm day with only a few high clouds. Hard to explain. The muffler is a possibility, I was at 3000 feet and didn't use cabin heat. I am a CFI and owned a 172 for many years. The 172 will basically fly itself out of a dive hands off. I'd be surprised if the NTSB doesn't get more data off some piece of electronic gear in the aircraft. Most pilots carry a cell phone or portable gear in addition to what's in the panel.

[@adb012]

ANY airplane with positive longitudinal static stability (and that is all GA airplanes with the CG in limits) will fly itself out of a dive hands off.... if the wings are level. In a spiral dive condition, NO airplane will fly itself out of a dive hands off.

[@chrispicinich4789]

50559 has a G1000, they're definitely going to find something interesting.

[@mantlepowers4781]

Years ago we redid the interior on our 172, while tearing it apart I found a wrench in the belly right next to the rudder pedals. Couple this with some stall training and the results could have been disastrous. I like to be right there in middle of those annuals asking questions and double checking everything.

[@Michaelc136]

Loved flying that aircraft. Thanks for the great instruction Tom, Rest In Peace.

[@RobTheQuant]

I flew with Tom many times, he was a very experienced instructor, my guess is that they were practicing slow flight and stalls on the way (as we'd normally do) and something went mechanically wrong with the cables, flaps or wings. No way he'd let the plane just drop out of the sky like that! So sad :(

[@RetreadPhoto]

What would explain not making a radio call?

[@RobTheQuant]

@@RetreadPhoto my understating is it was a sudden event and they just dropped from the sky without any warning or time to make a radio call hence my suspicion of a serious mechanical problem.

[@jb-qi8fz]

Just another thing to be aware of. Personally watch the shaft expansion plug being installed after annual shaft inspection. Mine was installed and the mechanic did not expand it enough to make it secure. On takeoff roll at rotation suddenly my windscreen was covered in oil. Fortunately I had enough runway to land and stop. Had it happened 3 seconds later I would have been off the runway and into the rockbound coastline. Pulled the prop and the plug fell out by itself. Just a tip , but a critical one.

[@chetmyers7041]

Make and model of engine please. Am not that familiar with engine maintenance.

[@jb-qi8fz]

@@chetmyers7041 Lycoming 0-320 150 H.P. But it really does not matter which engine because they all have the removable shaft plug for inspection of the shaft for corrosion . The shaft is hollow, much like a piece of pipe. Always inspected at annual. Be there yourself to watch it being installed. The convex side must face you and the center of it must be struck hard to cause expansion of it's outer edge against the inner wall of the shaft.

[@FOBob-sr1fd]

The recent maintenance rumor is of interest. I note that on several occasions Steveo Kenivo had issues with his TBM right after maintenance. This whole thing is puzzling.

[@Crafting_Through_Life]

We are losing way to many people in airplane crashes recently. Until I started plane spotting with my son 10 years ago, I never realized just how many small aircraft crash’s we had on a yearly basis but 2021 seemed to have take the cake. My heart goes out to all the loved ones suffering from an immense loss whether it was an accident or suicide, it doesn’t make it any easier not having the why and how answer.

[@nothingtoseehere4026]

Hi Juan, I looked at this as soon as I was confident of the tail number. If I recall, the SOG was 48 kts at 6200 ft before they disappeared. Suprisising to me, that the pilot and former instructor would stall at an altitude that allows for recovery in even the most "stall stubborn" plane. It's a head scratcher for sure.

[@davem5333]

The SOG was 48 kts. That is probably from the ADS readout. Speed over ground doesn't take into account airspeed.

[@teppo9585]

The data is cut there. There´s foul play here by the powers that be.

[@RetreadPhoto]

@@teppo9585 do you sell those tin hats? Or just wear them as a fashion statement?

[@Gsavega2803]

I’m not a pilot but respect and love aviation . I am saddened when things like this happen. May god bless them and their families.

[@kenclark9888]

Local and state officials need to let the investigators do their thing. Moving wreckage destroys evidence and clues

[@MajorHavoc214]

Not with the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, they are NTSB certified aircraft accident investigators.

[@j_taylor]

Maybe they brought in the Oklahoma Highway Patrol for this.

[@davem5333]

While leaving the wreckage in its original location is preferable, sometimes it is necessary to move it in order to secure it. Take a lot of pictures before you move it.

[@jharbo1]

Very tragic. Keep us posted. Praying for their families.

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

Rumour is the plane was 1 day out of a major service just done.

[@1shinytop686]

Wow looks like 2” of rain in your guage! That has to be good news for your drought conditions!

[@jaredhanrahan8156]

Hope you continue to follow up on this incident as more information becomes available. Took place about 4 miles from where I live. Thoughts and prayers to the families of all those involved

[@yehuda.r]

Adding to what others said I knew Tom as well (and others at CDW) and almost did my PPL with him. Very professional I only went someplace else as it was closer. Very sad and would really like to get more definitive answers as to what happened.

[@idanceforpennies281]

I did basic aerobatics in a C172 and from my experience, the plane wants to pull out of a dive unless you keep the controls pushed forward. Strange indeed.

[@felipesoto2137]

I had a C-172H STOL for 20 years; this amazing airplane is nearly impossible to stall, when dead stick, setting a glide speed, it flies like an eagle; what happened there was not an engine failure.

[@stevefisher4014]

They must have been doing some type of air work why else would you climb a 172 to 6000 feet for a 25 mile flight? I didn’t look at the chart for that area so I don’t know if he would have been avoiding restricted airspace or anything but air work type practice sounds very plausible.

[@robertthomas5906]

Then the data just stops. Something bad happened to stop the ADS-B from reporting. Electrical fire comes to mind.

[@garymiller5624]

6000 ft is an IFR level; were they IFR?

[@scotabot7826]

@@garymiller5624 "6000 ft is an IFR level" What?????

[@flyinfella]

@@scotabot7826 yes, a correct VFR altitude would have been 5500 heading Eastbound. Even 1000's are for IFR aircraft.

[@chetmyers7041]

@@scotabot7826 VFR flights fly at odd or even thousand plus 500 feet when cruising. Remember, "Odd people fly EAST." If on an easterly heading, choose an ODD thousand and add 500 feet,

[@swebigmac100]

One thing noteworthy: Plane did not burn up. It would at least have 1/4" of fuel in the tanks. After a crash like this, one would likely see post impact fire if there were any fuel in the tanks.

[@ericboehm4529]

Fuel exhaustion is possible, but would two experienced pilots miss something that basic? Or had they missed it, failed to safely glide the airplane from 6000 ft msl to several airports easily reachable at around 1000 msl.

[@swebigmac100]

@@ericboehm4529 there are plot holes. Agreed.

[@flywithmike6904]

Such a disheartening accident. I listened to Glen’s podcast interview last night with Justin Siems on Pilot to Pilot which was released Nov 2 and realized that he was one of the victims here. Justin and Glen made a “knock on wood” type joke about something bad happening on his next flight when talking about challenges they’ve faced flying. It’s a great episode, and Glen was clearly one of those truly special smart and kind individuals that are a rare breed. I feel deeply for his family and those who knew him. Would’ve loved to have been able to meet the man. Tom Fischer also sounds like he was a legendary instructor in his community and someone you would not expect this kind of thing to happen to. Their legacy will live on, and hopefully the circumstances that led to this accident come to light. Fly on in the heavens, Glen and Tom.

[@michaelhauser10]

I was the general manager of the mall where that airplane landed in the JCPenney parking lot…I think that was around 2009 or 10. Fortunately, both the instructor and student were mostly un-injured. Sorry to hear that the instructor and his student were not as lucky this time around.

[@niklaspilot]

Speaking of the PC12 crash in Milan - is there any update information? I haven't read or seen anything in relation to the crash since it happened

[@chrispicinich4789]

I am an old student from Fischer aviation and have flown with Tom and in N50559 many times. Tom was a great pilot with over 25k hours while 559 was a g1000 C172. I got my commercial license in 559 back in June and last flew 559 in August this year, nothing was wrong with her. 559 was fresh out of its 100hr inspection, only 5ish hours, when the crash occurred. Glen and Tom were taking this flight to conduct commercial maneuvers and although the instructor/student conflict leading to the crash theory seems most evident, I highly believe otherwise. Although I have never met Glen at the school, Tom and Glen had a great friendship. I had spoke with my CFI from the school and he believes the left wing came off the plane, and as bizzar as that may sound you must remember that anything is possible, anything CAN go wrong. I go to Embry riddle and a few years ago we had a Piper tear its wing clean off while in the pattern. Also, looking at the picture of the crash, I can't seem to find the left wing, let me know if you see otherwise. After all, these are just theories and we won't know what exactly happened until the NTSB comes out with its full report. I send my full condolences to the families of the two victims of the crash.

[@socalfun64]

Great info, thanks. Must be hard having known Tom and having flown in the same plane. I also learned to fly in a 172 up thru Instrument. Only thing I can come up with as well was structural failure. I was always so secure in those 172’s for as far and as easy as they can glide and come out of stall/spins. Maybe something done during the 100hr inspection. That sounds fishy.

[@Paul1958R]

@Chris Picinich Interesting observation/perspective - thank you. If you enlarge the crash photo it appears to me (non-pilot) that one wing is parallel to the fuselage in the foreground and the other wing is perpendicular to the fuselage in the background (below the 'N'). Who owned this plane and who do you think was actually flying at the time of the crash (and how is that determined)? Thanks Paul

[@chetmyers7041]

Good to hear from a knowledgeable person defending the character and experience of the flight instructor. RIP and condolences.

[@gringoloco8576]

They were planning commercial maneuver practice? That definitely could have resulted in an issue. One of the first maneuvers you often do are steep turns where you load the wing up. If someone had overstressed it recently (some speculation on speeds on prior flights from ads b data) that could have caused it. Wasn't that Piper at riddle with the wind separation during a commercial checkride?

[@gringoloco8576]

@@socalfun64 problem with rentals and flight schools is you never know how bad they guy before you stressed the airframe doing something dumb

[@jimmyjames8736]

This does seem strange. Looks like they had enough altitude and good weather so a power loss should not have been that disastrous. Strikes me as unlikely that DeVries wouldn't relinquish controls to his long-time instructor if needed. Maybe there will be a clue in the aircraft's maintenance history but this looks like a tough one.

[@RobtCowie]

Glad you are doing this Juan. Glen DeVries was actually a very good friend of some friends of mine. They, of course, are very broken up about his death, and would love to have some idea of what happened. Thank you!

[@davidbaron8330]

Glen was the heart and soul of Medidata. We who worked with him will all miss him personally and his leadership tremendously. And FWIW, he wasn't the kind of guy who would have panicked and screwed the pooch. Plus the guy with him had way more piloting experience. Something failed, but I don't believe it was the pilots. Tragic loss.

[@thomasl7932]

I thought the same thing, he seems like an intelligent person, he would be fine letting go of the controls if his instructor told him Not sure if this is possible but maybe the elevator cable snapped Otherwise most probably carbon monoxide played a role

[@iancurtis1152]

@@thomasl7932 good comment, a couple of years ago near Sydney Australia a De Havilland Sea Otter aircraft with the pilot and a family aboard crashed into the Hawkesbury River. The inquiry later found the occupants were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes from the engine.

[@melindajames456]

Have there been any updates on this crash, that you know of?

[@daffidavit]

I knew the flight Instructor, Tom Fischer. I've flown out of CDW since I soled there in 1968. I've made the trip to Sussex Co. Airport (FWN) so many times, I can't even count the number of times. But I do not believe they were attempting to land at FWN at the time of this incident. First, they were way past and northwest of the airport. Second, they were much too high, 6,100 ft at the time the ADSB services shows them going off the radar. I can't figure this one out. My only question is if they had an engine failure, why was their last "ADSB ping" at 6,100 ft. and not something more like 2,500 ft? If they were trying to glide into a forest with a failed engine, they "could have" spun it in at the last second to avoid the trees. But why doesn't the ASDB data show this? This is freighting. Does this mean we can not count on the ADSB data for being accurate? A C-172 does not just fall out of the sky with a CFI on board at 6,100 feet where the ground is only about 1,000 MSL at the time. I knew Tom. I want to know more about how this excellent CFI died.

[@curtissmith1527]

I was once giving a Young Eagles (EAA) flight in my Aeronca Champ with an 8 year old girl in the back seat. As soon as the wheels left the ground, she grabbed the stick in the rear seat and held on tight. She was holding so tight that I was having difficulty flying the plane. Straight and level was OK but no way was I going to able to land. I yelled over the intercom several time for her to let go. I shook the stick as best I could to get her to let go but nothing worked. Then I turned around in my seat and was able to peel her hands off of the stick. I had given maybe 40 rides to kids at this point but never anything like this ever happened.

[@fritz46]

We removed the rear stick in our gliders when flying passengers for exactly that reason.

[@oracle427]

The student here was working on his Commercial rating. Doubt this was the scenario.

[@garymiller5624]

Would never recommend putting a child in that position; irresponsible!

[@gzk6nk]

That wreckage looks like a spin-in. As Juan says, it has suffered a hard nose-down spinning impact. Looks like not a lot of forward speed and high rate of descent through the trees. IF that happened, the question remains - why did it happen?

[@timmotel5804]

Thanks for the update on this 172 SP crash and have a good trip.

[@TrondBørgeKrokli]

Good report as usual. Thank you for a very good & detailed explanation of the event. Answered most of the questions I had in my head, if not all.

[@brinkee7674]

Sussex is right up the road from me. This doesn't seem to make any sense. Hopefully an investigation will uncover something. Essex again, I have seen atleast a half dozen crashes around that airport as I worked a few blocks away. I was actually at the Bomb Group picking up food for our drive to Mass and I saw JFK there awaiting his ill fated flight. Talk about a weird weekend as I spent the next day in Mass where he was also headed helping find a body that went off a boat while bow riding on a lake where my dad lived. I actually even helped a pilot get out of a plane that went off the runway. I was out in my car and he came over head on a rainy late day. I knew he was way to high and drove as quick as I could to the other end of the runway to find the plane heavily damaged. One guy crashed his Cirrus(fatal) the next street over from the shop after prop striking the runway

[@thomassawicki2065]

My Dad taught me to never envy another person, because no one knows what suffering that person will experience.Glenn Devries had $billions but it could not save him from an airplane crash and death.

[@sophiejaysstuff4026]

But he was high profile.... ;)

[@marlinweekley51]

Absolutely true. Yet many (maybe most) people value money over their limited time on Earth as though it could save them. Guilty as charged when I was younger - now I’d give it all back to be 18 again. Well maybe not all of it. 😁

[@louisbelzil3105]

If you check Glen Devries aircraft history on Flightaware, N274DS, you can see that he flew a lot for private pilot. Very experienced and current. I am a DA40 pilot too - great safe airplane. Very sorry to learn of this accident and loss of life.

[@jdustin617]

The sad part about this is his DA20 had a plane parachute and the Cessna 172 did not. Such a loss for his family, his friends and our world. Gone too soon :(

[@alansimpson596]

It's interesting that you mention spins and stalls. I learned to fly in a Cessna 150 and after about 12 hours of circuits my instructor asked me to do a spiralling climb to 5,000 ft. He then took control and without warning put us into a spin and we recovered at about 4,000 ft. He asked me how I felt about and I told him I found it thrilling. When asked why he didn't forewarn me he said that often in the past when he gave notice the student didn't turn up. He added that if I couldn't cope with spins and stalls I would be wasting any further money. We did 4 more during that lesson. I'm not for one moment suggesting that this was the cause of this tragic accident but having moved up to 172s after I got my licence I too find it strange that one would just fall out of the sky. I hope they investigators find the answer.

[@kenhurley4441]

My two uncles that came out of WWII (Mechanics) encourged me to ask my instructor to do 720 spins (2 complete circles). My instructor said it wasn't required. I told him either teach me how to get out of a spin or I'll find another instructor. Well after 30 minutes of nothing but spins,,,,,, we were both glad to get back on the ground.

[@alansimpson596]

@@kenhurley4441 I found the experiences of stalls and spins gave me much more confidence as a student pilot.

[@matthewclark9012]

Spin recovery with my instructor, Carl Bowers, in the PA-28-140, was the same. Carl wouldn't let anyone solo until they had done spin recovery, and ALL series stalls. A wonderful instructor !! He had over 25,000 hours, almost all of it in single engine aircraft.

[@garymiller5624]

Do not recommend spinning an airplane without the students knowledge because they may not fly again but may become very capable pilots if they are aware of the situation and simply don't want to experience it. By nature ALL humans are afraid of "falling" from height; most can overcome it with knowledge. I speak from a 7500 hr flight instructor/FAA Pilot Examiner. I never attended a Flight Instructor Seminar where you unannounced "spun" an airplane.

[@jimarcher5255]

@@garymiller5624 I would never fly with such an instructor again. What other little unannounced trick would he have up his sleeve.

[@pookatim]

The key is that this was an instructional flight. The higher than required altitude suggests some sort of stall or spin maneuvers were being attempted. It is uncommon for training aircraft to expend so much fuel to climb to such a high altitude for any other reason. Climbing that high teaches little and is mostly a waste of time. There was a reason for the altitude and that was probably maneuver training. Something went terribly wrong that the well seasoned instructor could not correct in time. It will be interesting to see what it was, if we ever do find out. One piece of critical information about the crash site is if the plane left a track through the woods, which would suggest it was flying or a relatively small area which would suggest it fell out of the sky. The damage suggests a nose-down impact but there isn't enough damage to suggest a high speed impact. If it "augered-in" there would be very little of the air-frame that was even recognizable. Perhaps a flat-spin? I doubt it struck a lot of trees otherwise the wings would have separated but they appear to be present at the crash. Strange one!

[@stephenswanson533]

Will be interested to see of rear seat baggage etc. present, which could result in an aft CG outside utility portion of the envelop, making an spin unrecoverable -- especially in combo with a panicked low time pilot.

[@Mike-01234]

172 doesn't flat spin just let go of the controls it will recover this has to be some sort of incapacitation maybe CO getting in though the heater.

[@bhc1892]

Agree with all of the above. The excessive altitude struck me as well. They climbed to 6,000 feet when they were 16 miles from their destination, then stayed there until they were almost in the pattern, and entered slow flight just before ADSB cuts out. My theory is they were planning to spin their way down for instructional purposes. As an additional note, if the front left wing bolt were to separate during the recovery, and they had a Skybeacon, that would explain the loss of ADSB.

[@mariuskuhrau761]

Juan, I just saw the crash of the the United Airlines Pilot and ex USAF pilot, in a Cessna Skylane earlier this year. What is confusing is that the the United pilot is the student in the Cessna Skylane and not a instructor. The kicker is that Untied pilot indicates in his statement that the instructor is the the cause of the accident, and the instructor blames the student. I see that this happened on 30/05/2021 at the Minden-Tahoe Airport, Arizona. As a commercial Pilot why do you have to train to fly small aircraft as it does not make sense.

[@Neil_]

Check out for a rental would be my guess.

[@jimarcher5255]

Flare at 50’ vs flare at 10’.

[@ELKUKO22]

Did my first discovery flight on that exact airplane N90559 heard about this and I'm still freaked out about it

[@ccserfas4629]

As always, thanks Juan

[@robertrichard9460]

Thank you for the report! I live about five miles from the crash site. It was a beautiful day that day. Sad

[@geoffreyarnold7292]

A long time ago during an annual inspection, the mechanics left the aircraft tow bar loose in the tail cone of a Cherokee 180, back behind the baggage compartment with the flight cables by where the battery box is. In flight the tow bar could have jammed the controls. Fortunately we looked everything over carefully before flying the plane and discovered the potential disaster. Something like this can happen after major maintenance.

[@V100-e5q]

Will there be a fine or at least penalty payment (reduction of the bill)? I at least would demand some kind of penalty for a life threatening mistake.

[@raymondclark1785]

Like scuba gear, the failure is usually on the 1st dive after service

[@privatepilot4064]

This whole thing is rather strange. The circumstances surrounding who Glenn was and the odd characteristics of the fatal flight.

[@gregsweber]

I’ve been eagerly waiting to see if you’d cover this one. I fly out of Caldwell and drive past Fischer Aviation nearly every day. One of the interesting things to me is the ADSB track along with the reports they were doing a flight from CDW to FWN. It appears they are flying direct and then alter course to more westerly before the accident. I’m very curious why the deviation unless, like mentioned, they were doing maneuvers. Eager to hear the preliminary report.

[@bernieschiff5919]

Also used to fly out of Caldwell. Would be interesting to know the sun angle, and cloud cover at the time, I believe it was late afternoon? A direct west heading would have a strong glare effect on both pilots if the sky was clear.at the horizon. A possible distraction or (steep) turn (on instruments) leading to a spiral and LOC? Were they climbing to avoid a scattered layer(s) and stay VFR?

[@oracle427]

@@bernieschiff5919 Metars for that day for the whole area were clear skies and calm winds. Surface winds were 0-5 knots and CLR at most airports. The flight was around 10:30-10:45.

[@bernieschiff5919]

@@oracle427 Thanks for the update, I wasn't aware of the ceiling/visibility.

[@oracle427]

@@bernieschiff5919 It all adds to the perplexity of this accident.

[@bernieschiff5919]

@@oracle427 Additional comments are mentioning a possible wing panel bolt failure in a spin maneuver, this seems to be leading towards a structural failure, of possibly the (outer) wing, It was something that happened quickly, to cause a steep vertical decent. They may have used the 172 for practice, since the Diamond isn't approved for spins?

[@garyb5768]

Thanks for all your video updates and I always look fwd to your posts….I admire your dedication to aviation and learning why these accidents happen.. Thanks for sharing and hopefully these investigations/opinions will help save a life.. Thanks for what you do.

[@Saltlick11]

Juan, do you have any opinions about the recent CJ/Tamarack accident (2018) - just released by NTSB. They don't provide much in the way of verifiable evidence and it appears as though they sort of threw together their report with suggestive conclusions only. Might you take a look?

[@wisheye1]

Very sad accident, prayers go out to the friends and family of the victims.

[@omniryx1]

I'm wondering about a cable, linkage, or control surface failure. The 172 is such a stable, forgiving aircraft that it is difficult to imagine pilot error as a cause, especially given a CFI on board. I learned to fly in a 172 and I remember advice from my first instructor: If you get in trouble, put your hands in your lap, your feet on the floor, and let the airplane save your a**.

[@shanegibson8530]

Thanks Juan for doing this. I was curious about this accident as well.

[@JimForeman]

Wish we could see both sides of the elevator. Several years ago one side of the elevator broke off a Cessna 180 and it tumbled nose down and went straight into the ground.

[@jonesjones7057]

This is my thought as well, something with the horizontal stab/elevator. The carbon monoxide theory is good but even with an unconscious pilot the plane wouldn't likely just dive. It might wallow down in a turn or porpoise but not just dive.

[@martynh5410]

@@jonesjones7057 I would expect that any CO related issues would be easy to detect in a post mortem of the two men who sadly passed away in this mysterious accident.

[@davidrice3337]

Sounds like this was a good man - like us horse people I'm sure the flying community is home to a close knit bunch - whether you know each other or not -sorry for the loss

[@jeffwalther3935]

What was the rush to move the aircraft out of the crash site? Whoever was in charge of the investigation didn't investigate the site, at all? just local police? Does the bureaucrat then just read everyone else's reports and decide cause of crash? What's wrong with this picture and all news reporting generally?

[@bernieschiff5919]

I agree, the local police appear to have been in a big rush. Remove the victims, but secure the site and wait for the investigators. They may have destroyed evidence in process of moving.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

My guess is that NTSB wanted a 'More comfortable environment for our investigators". so the airplane was moved to a temperature controlled hangar instead. Taxpayers will pay for it anyway. We like comfort.

[@johnscherer5380]

Moody Bible Institute flight school in Spokane lost a C-172 a couple of years ago with an IP and two students aboard. A large bird strike was the cause. Perhaps the case here?

[@i.r.wayright1457]

That would probably show up as blood and feathers in or on the plane somewhere. I have a friend who was flying his Aztec when he hit a goose out near the left tip. He said it spun the plane a bit left and there was a dent about 6 inches deep on the leading edge. I was in an OH-6A in Vietnam when we started hitting birds with the rotor blades. then one took out the left side bubble. That was the flight where we made two locals dive off a rice paddy dike at the last possible second or they would have been skewered by the skids. Crazy F'n pilot.

[@siedan89]

I thought that inflight breakup was wing strut related? AD2020-18-01 came from wing strut attach points cracks all from one operator mentioned above. Such AD does not apply to the SP model.

[@donr2670]

DTSB - hahaha Juan ROFL, I went to Dan's channel mid video to see what he had on this only to find him in a cemetery literally digging up dirt on a crash victim. Don't judge me I can't help but watch his iddy biddy fledgling KZbin channel. Dan, you and Scotty Kilmer are my compulsive watches, such rare company Juan! ;-)

[@chetmyers7041]

Hey, stop! You slander my idol Scotty Kilmer by speaking his name in same paragraph with Dan Cryder. My next airplane is gonna be a TOYOTA.

[@simonrook5743]

Dassault is a French company and the correct pronunciation is with a silent lt, so pronounced Dass-O. I work with their products.

[@FlightData101]

Our friends in the USA have a hard time pronouncing foreign words properly. I cringe whenever I hear them say “foyer” on those home improvement shows Mrs. Intrepid likes to watch. It’s foy yay, not foy yur.

[@86BBUB]

Da-so - soft a; hard o

[@FASTTRACK2ENGLISH]

@@FlightData101 😂 Come on! Give the guy a break! He’s only pronouncing the word as his mind sees it. The word assault comes to mind. 3/4 of the French words have letters that you don’t pronounce. 😂 I’m sure the French butcher many ENGLISH words. So Jessie Smollett should be Smoyay…😂

[@Stormcloakvictory]

Not to mention DeVries is not De-fries. But DeVrees (Freeze but short S) (Duh-Frees) Sincerely A Frisian (Vries) hehe Edit, awesome channel and I'm definitely a fan, It's just something funny i guess.

[@crfdln]

Juan...something catastrophic had to happen that prevented control of the plane. If they ran out of gas or had an engine out, there would have been an attempt on the CFII's part (with this much experience) to land the plane in a safe place. There is no indication on the Flight Aware track that anyone was trying to fly/glide the plane to a safe landing. It appears that the plane literally fell out of the sky from 6,500 ft. like a hunk of shapeless metal. Must have been one of the following: 1) important control cable broke; 2) pilot and pax were overcome by CO and stopped flying the plane; or 3) they inadvertently got into an unrecoverable flat spin. May the deceased rest in peace and condolences to their families.

[@bernieschiff5919]

I agree, there appears, from this discussion, to be no attempt at recovery from the vertical dive. Whatever happened, happened quickly. From the descriptions, he was a very outgoing personality. Was he showing off a zero G type maneuver to his instructor, and in the resulting dive, overstressed the elevator spar in a panic pull? Were there existing stress cracks in the elevator spar from moving the aircraft on the ground? If the spar failed, did it fail up or down?

[@wucjohnwallis]

Juan.... Your presentations are always interesting and very informative... However your rain gauge needs attention before the next rain...

[@jamescaley9942]

Alarming. Hard to conceive of a plausible cause.

[@kellycoleman715]

I used to fly 172’s. They are gliders. Hard to imagine one falling out of the sky when you lose power.

[@6thwatergateplumber]

When I first saw, and heard about this, it's like how on Earth do you crash a 172...honestly...these planes practically fly themselves. Things can happen certainly, but it really would be nice to know what could have possibly happened to not even allow some kind of landing.

[@winstonchurchill3597]

A Cessna 172 will just barely kill you.

[@sharonfieber6458]

Good information again Jaun. Deep sad part, someone at FAA wake up with price on electronics dropping (micro blackboxes). Flight simulator for general aviation, train on. Sad for more people died in General Aviation.

[@GarthGoldberg]

Actually, Medidata was bought by Dassault (DAH-so) Systeme (SIS-tem), stock symbol DASTY, a software spin-off from the French aviation company. In addition to Medidata, they also make 3D modeling software. The stock has been doing pretty well the last couple of years. This is a weird case. Cessna 172's don't normally drop out of a clear sky from 6,000 feet.

[@hotprop92]

Decades ago it was my privilege to fly with or more properly was instructed by the best pilot I'll ever fly with. Retired AA captain, Jim Chaudoin gave aerobatic lessons out of FWN in a Super Decathlon. I'm pretty sure I may have misspelled his name for which I humbly apologize. We flew north of FWN over the onion fields where I abraded Jim's patience with my clumsy(compared to his deft touch) efforts. I'm particularly reminded of a spin that the plane stubbornly seemed to resist entry but when it broke it went fully developed like the gate being flung open on a rodeo bull ride. Jim called, "I got it" and immediately went full recovery and left us with far less altitude then was typical after recovery. My two cents, out of cg and/or weight limits for spin training. It's very hard to take a C-172 out of rearward cg limits; you'd probably exceed gross first. However, it's entirely possible for two hefty guys to exceed the front limit. This may make a slow pullout to recover from the dive but the damage to the plane doesn't look like they drilled it. Maybe they just ran out of airspace.

[@ED-es2qv]

I’m just curious how you use the jaws of life to cut a path. Is that the most expensive set of pruners ever made?

[@squelchstuff]

From the statement by the Fire Dept. "UTVs from Stillwater, Fredon, and the New Jersey Forest Fire Service brought in the Jaws of Life and cut a road in with chainsaws to the crash site. " My read is the jaws of life were brought in for extrication, and a path was cut with chainsaws.

[@j.thomas7128]

I took lessons decades ago at Sussex. My instructor was named, Wozinsky or Wozniak or something like this. He was a really nice guy.

[@seanur2414]

Highly erratic speeds for all other flights recorded in Flight Aware, going back as far as 11/02/2021. In some flights, speeds get as high as 230 mph and rapidly change. I think that 230 mph ground speed should be well above Vne in a 172SP regardless of rate of climb, descent, or wind speed. In fact, of the ~10 or so flight logs available, speeds looked least erratic in the final, fatal flight. Unless these data are all erroneous, something is quite fishy.

[@billbaden742]

Vne in a 172 can't be much over 150kts a strong tailwind could get a high groundspeed...230 ground speed sounds impossible

[@svyt]

I suspect erroneous data. There's a section on 06 Nov, between approx 1651 and 1659Z where FlightAware shows these ubelievable ground speeds. However, when you look at that same section of the tracklog recorded in ADSBExchange, it does show the data is spotty - there are track errors, dropouts in the data, etc. But all the ADSBExchange velocities are in range of 90 - 120 kts (with a couple individual, isolated ones of 130-140, which again, I suspect as being corrupted data due to the coverage dropping in and out.) But nothing like the extended period of 10 minutes flirting with 200 kts shown on FlightAware. One other thing I noticed. For this 6 Nov flight I'm referring to, if you look at its data in FlightAware, and pull up the "track log", you'll see that the "Reporting Facility" for that period between about 51 and 59 min past the hour switches from "ADS-B" to "MLAT". MLAT is a location calculation method that relies on multiple receiving stations all receiving the same signal in a time-synchronized network, and deriving the aircraft location (and thus, its velocity) from a geometric calculation using the different times of the radio signal arrival at each station. *_It yields a substantially lower quality result than ADS-B._* So this further increases my confidence in the assertion that these outrageous speeds in the FlightAware data are probably just data anomalies - not an actual Cessna 172 being pushed up and down above 200 kts for 10 minutes straight.

[@TomJones-uf5sl]

I used to have a 1965 172 with the O-300. I lived in Amarillo, Texas, where the wind blew constantly. One day, I was at 12,000 tracking into the AMA VOR at a radar indicated 230 miles per hour. Every dog has his day!

[@Murph9000]

The temporary incapacitation theory is certainly worth a thought. Mentour Pilot talked about it in one of his recent videos. There's still a fair bit of time to recover from 6000 feet. Way back in the day, we used to regularly throw the DHC-1 into a vertical stall at about 5000 feet; 0 airspeed, 0 vertical speed, 0 RPM, momentarily silent and weightless. Entering a full vertical dive from there gave plenty of time to recover, with a windmill restart of the engine and about 3G pull out of the dive at 2000 feet. The C172 is not that type of bird, but the point is there's a reasonable bit of thinking and recovery time available. It never really felt like we were in a great hurry to get back into normal flight, it always felt like we had plenty of energy and time remaining (including to select a suitable bit of grass or bail out, if it really came down to it). I'm thinking this is more likely some sort of control or control surface issue. E.g. jammed or detached elevator. Very much speculative, but has a plausible fit to that data. That's assuming we're discounting something like VFR into IMC.

[@bernieschiff5919]

It might be he intended to show off to his instructor what zero G is like. A panic pull from a dive or loss of control may have resulted. It appears there was no attempt at recovery during the vertical decent. As you said, a smooth recovery should have been possible from a dive, at that altitude, if the (elevator) was not damaged from overstress. Did the elevator spar fail fail up or down?

[@bhc1892]

One explanation that would fit the data we have so far is a deliberate stall + spin, with a single wing-bolt separation during the recovery. If they were using a Skybeacon ADSB transmitter (very common), it's mounted on the wingtip and would have stopped transmitting when the power wires broke. If only one bolt broke, the wing would fold back and stay with the plane.

[@bhc1892]

Also, I noticed in the accident photo that the left wing (where a Skybeacon would be mounted) is on the wrong side of the plane, which is consistent with the partial-separation theory. And why were they at 6000ft only a mile from the destination? Perhaps the plan was to spin-down, something I do all the time in my champ (a little further out though).

[@RealRickCox]

The reason I stopped watching Dan was because he frequently blamed crashes on pilots panicking without any factual evidence. The guy willing to jump into a rocket and fly to space and is gradually building his flying skills is NOT the guy who's going to be afraid of stalls. I respect the way YOU are discussing accidents far more than the people who go off on wild speculations.

[@keanm104]

Thanks for making this video. I was extremely sad to hear this accident, especially because i was supposed to be in the plane. I was coming for my first training flight with tom, (i am only 13) and I declined the chance to come early, which could have saved my life. God bless his heart, i may have been one of the last few people he spoke to. I was speaking with his wife over email but it doesnt seem like ill be taking any new lessons soon.

[@davida.4933]

Let it make you a safety cautious pilot. I'm sure you and your parents realize the big danger in transportation is driving or being driven in a car.

[@patrickmcneilly4293]

I was at work in Newton, saw the notification tag on Broadcastify, promptly said a few words, and got to listening. There was a storm coming in and then it rained over the night. Just a cool fact about the NJSP helicopter, it’s called “NorthStar” and there’s one in South Jersey called “SouthStar”.

[@nancykaufmann3993]

Lived at the Jersey shore for awhile. Always amazed me how North Jersey and South Jersey are 2 separate states….in a state that’s not that big.

[@blackhd92]

After Dan Gryder solves the Db Cooper hyjacking case beyond a reasonable doubt (like he says he will),He will be so busy with Network interviews,talk shows book deals(he loves book deals).🙄🙄

[@davismaxx]

Sorry to hear about this. Seems like a lot of serious plane crashes lately. Just lost my mom and sis up in Ketchikan Alaska this August 5th

[@deew7014]

Condolences 💐

[@nancykaufmann3993]

Oh my goodness, so sorry for your loss.

[@6StringPassion.]

There was an incident I recall from several years ago where the elevator on a Cessna locked up in flight. I can't help but wonder if something like that happened here.

[@knietiefimdispo2458]

That might also be a good explanation why they where at 6.000 ft very close to the destination airport. KFWN has an elevation of 422 ft. Their altitude and constant climb makes no sense at all for that short leg.

[@bobstewart195]

Good Video....thanks....keep up the great, great work!

[@michaelimbesi2314]

I’m surprised at how flat that ground is. Sussex County is pretty mountainous. Not tall mountains like you have in CA, but very steep and rocky.

[@p52twinboom]

Crashed in swamp

[@carlosbaena4839]

Thank you Juan, indeed a very sinister accident.

[@Paul1958R]

Juan, Thank you for this report. I actually feel sorry for William Shatner as practically every news media article/report about this crash mentions him several times. Shatner had nothing to do with this crash and probably only knew De Vries (and vice versa) casually. BTW do they even know who was actually flying the plane - how do they determine this? And whose plane was it? Paul (in MA)

[@vagabondroller]

Well, Shatner killed his wife so don’t feel too sorry for him.

[@wcolby]

@@vagabondroller KZbin gives us tools, so we know to disregard any comment you make.

[@vagabondroller]

@@wcolby I followed the case when it happened and the information is still available. It is my opinion that he killed her and had her cremated before an autopsy could be performed...look into it. Definitely not the right place or time to comment on it but it makes my blood boil to see someone get away with murder so just want to point that out before anyone feels sorry for him.

[@wcolby]

@@vagabondroller I hear what you’re saying… to confirm I don’t like TV stars at all and I believe people should be held accountable for their murders. The Wikipedia page I read said that there was an autopsy performed and that they found alcohol and drugs in her system. In my moments of research I also found a web page that explained how Spock was the one that killed her because he had a gay relationship with Shatner. So that brings us to this point where you care and I don’t. I wish you the best and I urge you to believe whatever you need to believe so that you can deal it.

[@randomschmo5778]

FYI, W Shatner is a conservative, hence the gratuitous smears by the commie fake news media.

[@melindajames456]

Do you have any updates on this crash??

[@nightwaves3203]

172's can flat spin. Happened to two instructors that had to get on top of the dash to bring the plane out of it.

[@JustSayN2O]

What exactly did they do and how did that result in resumption of controlled flight?

[@mfree80286]

@@JustSayN2O Apparently they had to unbuckle and lick the windshield to get the CG to shift forward.

[@johntremper9131]

Absolutely ridiculous.

[@crissd8283]

That is insane. The 172 is hard to fully stall if you have two people up front and no one in the back. I believe you, but would never have guessed that. That must have been terrifying to be in an unrecoverable flat spin, glad they had the altitude and wherewithal to un buckle.

[@nightwaves3203]

@@crissd8283 Two commercial instructors flying together with free time practicing their spins. They had some size to them but they needed to go forward to get out. They didn't say when they came back with the story but I'd guess they were enjoying spinning seeing what could happen with different inputs then they did find out. Walla the plane went from a typical spin to a flat spin. They did say they swear off playing with spins and will only do them to teach students from now on. Spins aren't the thing to play with. Our course was always using the full power reversed inputs method simulating climbing that snaps the plane over violently. Depending on how hard or how fast you neutralize the controls in the start of that spin entry I wouldn't doubt you could go flat or into an inverted spin it can be so fast putting inertia into the plane that is counter to flying characteristics. I don't advise practicing spin entries that way. First sight is partially upside down banked.

[@bw162]

Another NTSB report likely…”pilot failed to maintain adequate ground separation.” aka ‘we have no idea.’ Might as well say gravity played a part.

[@kevinmadore1794]

The Flight Aware data shows the speed decreasing slowly and steadily.....as might happen if a CFI and student were practicing slow flight and or stall recoveries. It could be something as simple as a departure from controlled flight during stall practice. Hard to believe that an experienced CFI would let such a situation progress to a full-blown spin. The 172 recovers pretty easily with anti-spin rudder application.

[@HansvandeVen]

What you see is the ground speed, not the airspeed. The airspeed could be incrementing fast during a dive and you see the ground speed decrementing slowly.

[@JohnPlocher]

@@HansvandeVen but, wouldn't the altitude graph show a similar reduction? "High airspeed dive" doesn't fit well with flight aware's constant altitude and decreasing groundspeed plot...

[@HansvandeVen]

@@JohnPlocher It should indeed. I don't know but maybe the speed is derived from gps location intervals and altitude from mode C or S transponder transmissions? Or maybe flightaware calculates the altitude also from gps coordinates but less frequent. This is my guess.

[@MGB-learning]

Outstanding video and presentation.

[@markkatemcghee2381]

No post crash fire as it seems in the pix. God bless 3B5

[@lylelehman3456]

As an aviation enthusiast and non-pilot, your channel is extremely informative for those of us who love details. Keep it up, keep it flying.

[@otiebrown9999]

As an aerobatic pilot - I agree.

[@billbaden742]

The theory of student/instructor conflict in loss of control until ground impact is very realistic. A FBO at Redlands Airport that I rented aircraft out of had this same scenario occur in the late 90's. A instructor and student spun a 152 into the ground. Spin training was not authorized in the 152 and a decatholon was used for this step of training. I credit the spin training for the succesfull spin recovery I and a passenger in a 152 experienced while flying at night over Corona CA. during a strong Santa Ana wind condition.

[@ritualghost]

152s and 172s don't spin at all. I've never been in one that will even maintain a spin without deliberate inputs to make it happen. Most of the time you barely neutralize controls and it gets itself out. I don't buy it for a second.

[@randymagen2909]

@@ritualghost I put a 172 into an inadvertent spin during my checkride. We went at least 1/2 way around before the designated flight examiner got us out of it. 172s can and do spin without deliberate inputs.

[@ritualghost]

@@randymagen2909 the way he got you out of it was probably taking aileron out that you put in and neutralizing it. I'm telling you, I've been in a spin in a 172 and 152 where the instructor had to hold in aileron and rudder to initiate and hold a 2 turn spin and once released... literally hands and feet off controls and up in the air... it got itself out. Completely different from other aircraft that actually required opposite rudder with neutral ailerons to get out of.

[@billbaden742]

@@ritualghost I have done 1/4 recovery in a 152 and never more than that. I did three rotations in a decathalon and it felt like a spinning elevator ride after the first rotation. The spin I got into in turbulence was recovered after 3/4 rotation because I didn't have much to go on until the street lights enabled me to know what direction to kick the rudder. Spin training should be a neccesity for a pilots license. Spin training and entering a full spin should only be conducted in an aerobatic approved plane.

[@billbaden742]

@@ritualghost hands off is not the same as feet off. The procedure for spin recovery of all aircraft that can be recovered from a spin is the same. Nuetral ailerons, power to idle and fully push elevator. Identify direction of rotation and apply opposite rudder to direction of spin. Once rotation is halted gradually increase power while gently pulling out of dive.

[@davidobyrne9549]

Juan, do you have any info or opinions on the BN2A public transport crash at Beaver Island, Michigan. This happened Saturday 13 November and resulted in 4 fatalities from the 5 persons onboard. Initial observations indicate that the plane was on final approach in poor weather conditions.

[@TechGorilla1987]

There seems to be a distinct lack of fire in those pictures.

[@marlinweekley51]

No reason for a fire unless fuel reaches hot surface. If it had bladders perhaps the didn’t rupture. Wet wings would have for sure put fuel everywhere. 🤔 to be determined

[@davidd6635]

RIP fellow pilots. No fire? All four corners appear in one spot. Stall spin trying to make it to a clear field for landing? Great reporting Juan. Can't help but think a life threatening medical emergency was involved.

[@markg4459]

Don't see that as likely with two qualified pilots aboard. Are we to conclude both were simultaneously disabled...??

[@Lee-qp6gf]

If they were in control they could have "mushed" it into the trees at the stall. Something else wrong.

[@jrob67]

Hey Juan - unrelated topic. Did you ever comment on any investigation outcomes for N601VH? I scrolled through all of your posts and can’t see anything. It was s Canadair CL-600 Challenger that crashed on 05-06-19 en route from McCarran to Monterrey, MX with 13 souls. I have particular interest in the outcome as I was #2 behind it on departure from McCarran on a Delta flight and distinctly recall it visually on roll out. I recall the weather that day on route to Boston and know they dealt with the same, gnarly front we did. Haunts me a bit and have been unable to find any reporting on cause. Wondering if you have any. Thanks. Always enjoy your posts.

[@watchgoose]

medical issue is at least possible if not probable. falling forwards over the yoke. I hope they autopsy.

[@markdykeman6783]

I am having a very hard time understanding this tragedy. Do you have any updates. Thank you for all your work.

[@teppo9585]

Devries guy was spewing all false narratives in an article about his space flight.. my guess is he´s alive and well just needed to become "deceased" for whatever reason. Guy was inside.. things like this don´t happen to guys like that unless its a decoy of sorts.