Cab Rides 86 Class & XPT

9 Minutes. A day's work for Jack Lawson - Drive the Indian Pacific to Lithgow, drive an XPT back to Sydney. My only regret was not taking A LOT more video of the 86.

[@rossmoir7360]

A few facts from someone who was driving trains at that time . Yes , a single deck inter urban train did in fact overtake the XPT on the straight section between Rooty Hill and St Marys. (He employed the "exciter" ) which applied more power to the drive wheels . There were no politicians or "big wigs" onboard the XPT , there was however a Loco Inspector , who caused a major amount of grief for the driver of the electric set. A " Notice To Enginemen " was published , which stated that NO attempts were to be made to exceed the speed of the XPT during trials . The maximum speed for a V set was 110km/h , for the XPT 160km/h. As for the expense of electricity , on the main Western line , 3 46 Class electric Locos , heading East between Katoomba and Emu Plains ( or down the Hill ) could supply enough power to run 3 passenger trains from Valley Heights to Katoomba .( Up the Hill ) . Regenerative braking ( or turning the traction motors into generators ) had the double benefit of braking the train , AS WELL AS supplying power to the grid . The service life of the overhead copper cables was about 20 years , as the friction was diminished by the carbon pads in the pantographs . Even taking into account arcing , the panto's took the lions share of the wear and tare . When the first of the new electric loco's were introduced ( the 85 class???) , they came with a raft of problems . Mitsubishi sent out a team of engineers from Japan to try to address the problems . ( l believe it was overheating ) . The locos were NOT a popular choice amongst the drivers , even with aircon and better seats . Also , externally , they were identical in shape and size to the new 80 class loco's , quite a few signalmen diverted 85 classes onto non electrified roads . PTCNSW's solution? Put a small illuminated "E" on the front and rear of the 85 Class. Didn't do much good as l recall . Love 'em , or hate' em , the old 46 Class was a true workhorse ! ( as was the 48 class diesel) . 3600 HP , rough as guts to travel in , and quite a machine to master !! 20 throttle notches , plus 5 weak field positions , through Series , Series Parallel and full Parallel ranges , making a grand total of 75 throttle settings . As a light engine ( loco only ) , series parallel weak field could plant you against the back wall with so much force , you could not remove yourself . Would love to know what the G Forces were !! Loco Cleaning. As a Trainee Engineman in the late 70's , you had to accrue a certain amount of hours as a Loco Cleaner . There were good jobs , and bad jobs , but all at the behest of the " Head Cleaner " . He was dictated to by the "Chargehand" , aka GOD. Good jobs included "WIndows" ( clean the windscreens , mirrors and side windows ) with a mild metho based solution. "Cabs" , mop the cab floors with " Blue Omo ", a blue detergent , and "Tools" or "Buckets" . This was a throwback to the old steam days , each Loco was supposed to have a Hammer , Cold Chisel , Brake Pipe Spanners , " Crackers " ( explosive devices to be placed on the track in case of breakdown ) , and some other items that l have long forgotten !! Bad Jobs . Wax and Polish . This is how l spent a LOT of time . As the name implies , you hand waxed and polished the sides and front/rear of the Locomotive. We used "Locoshine" , a gritty petroleum based polish . With rags . No prior pressure washing or steam cleaning . Wax on , Wax Off !! Now the worst of all : SHOULDERS !! Using a combination of small scrapers , and a mix of Locoshine and Diesel , you cleaned the roof of the Locomotive. Scrape off the oil and carbon deposits , then lots of lovely polishing with rags and Locoshine/ diesel mixture . Deposits of 3/4 inch of solidified carbon/ engine oil were not uncommon . Most of which you took home with you in your clothes and skin ! No safety harnesses , no high vis , no rules . l cant recall a single fall accident whilst l was at DELEC. Once cleaned , those roofs were SLIPPERY !! No scaffolds either . Loads and Locos . When the Coal and Wheat was on , you worked . A lot . 13 shifts in 14 days was not uncommon . Wheat from the South and North , Coal from the west . Other grains and crops from all over NSW . Milk from the North coast . Wine from Griffith and Pyrmont . Not packaged , but bulk . 5000 litres per tank . Coal , 100 tonnes per truck , 35 trucks , same with wheat and other grains . Containers were in their infancy , but there was one high priority train from Sydney to Melbourne , all containers , a "High Wheeler " . Took priority over passenger trains ( and that NEVER happened ! ) . Making up trains at Cooks River Yard . One 48 Class , 40 to a string , NO brakes , only the engine brakes . No radio . Hand signals . " Hit Up " ( full throttle ) , then STOP !!! Hang on , and hope for the best . We were at least 500M away from what was happening , then pull the rest back , and repeat . For 8 hours . Lithgow yard . Triple header ( diesel usually ) , and a " Bank Engine " pushing us from the rear , just to get out of the yard !! Stop at Katoomba to set the grade controls ( slow release for the train brakes ) , the slooowly down to Valley Heights . Apply brakes at 30 km/h , slow to about 15km/h , release brakes , by the time air pressure was back up , you are hitting 38km/h , repeat, slow down , speed up . Dynamic braking ( Diesel) or Regenerative Braking ( electric ) set to max ,trying to hold back 3500 tonnes . Over 40 km/h , you are classified as a runaway . You might , or might not be able to stop . At night , looking back , you could see the wheels glowing red . At that time , most of the senior drivers had come out here after the war ( WW2) . All had done their time on steam , and knew the roads intimately . They were Poles and Lithuanians , Germans and Latvians , Greeks , Italians , Yugoslavians , and most of Eastern Europe . I think of them often , and am thankful for the wisdom they imparted , the working relationships that we had , so different to today .

[@tressteleg1]

Thank you for your detailed response. I hope that others will get to read it as well. The story about the U set racing the XPT and the driver getting into trouble is no secret. But after all, if you have a timetable to maintain with your train, why should you slow down and lose time because the XPT is just mucking around?

[@JohnSmith-sh1cu]

Hi Ross, thanks for that detailed information! In regards to the U set and the XPT, in February 1982 an XPT ran several low cost shuttles between Blacktown and Parramatta over several days during that month. From what I've seen of some photos taken during one of these days the XPT seemed to always been on the main tracks (inner pair) not the slower outer ones, so it seemed hard to believe that this event could've happened (it being overtaken by a U set). Someone on the railpage forums though who says they've been in the industry for a long time (including when this supposedly happened) says the XPT was going slower (probably around 60-80km/h) during the shuttle runs to give people more time on the train and that a 4 car single deck travelling in the same direction (u boat) overtook it going at permissible track speed (which these days is 115km/h). In regards to 86 class locos, a second loco, 8649 is in the process of reactivation to join 8606. A third one, 8644, might be reactivated as a back-up unit to the other two. There is also a possibility that 4615 may be reactivated as well, however it could only be used for heritage runs

[@tressteleg1]

John Smith I went on one of those cheap XPT shuttles. I though I put a few photos in this video. It is hard to remember everything now, but I am fairly certain that at least some of the time the XPT was run fast just to show what it could do.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@tressteleg1 I wish I went on an XPT low cost shuttle :(

[@tressteleg1]

@@TrainzForNSWVlogs I S uspect it may have been before your time. It was a big publicity affair. I can’t remember the fare, but it could have been as low as $1.

[@jimmynswgr]

A great video! Great to see 3026 at Penrith with the L cars!

[@aussiekid3287]

What an amazing piece of history. I wonder if Jack Lawson is still around he looks like a good fellow.

[@tressteleg1]

Yes he was a good fellow. I saw him a few times after his retirement on my trips to Sydney but sadly we lost him about 6 years ago.

[@dberk71]

Amazing Video. Thank You.

[@russbarwise8403]

thats awesome thanx 4 posting video

[@joehooyen725]

This is great,that Jack guy sure knew how to drive a train be it steam ,diesel or electric .Throughly enjoyed....thanks !

[@tressteleg1]

+Joe Hooyen Yes, Jack enjoyed all his trains, but much preferred steam. Sadly we lost him a few years ago.

[@simonprice8737]

Somebody else on here said they sucked, yes I completely understand, they may be fine on UK network but not suited too Australian conditions, you need a high speed network !!! Yes our fares suck big time but so does our traffic congestion, we are only a small island compared to you, maybe you need to upgrade All your track and have electric tilting trains doing 140 mph on existing track that might persuade more people to travel by train. But there's no easy answer to decades of underinvestment as we found out......nice video anyway...cheers

[@MASSspec1990]

He reminds me of the typical Aussie I grew up with.

[@tressteleg1]

A typical railwayman 😊

[@marcconyard5024]

Sad to say this but out of all my many train journeys in Australia some of the worst were on XPTs. One trip back from the north coast the A/C in our car died on a 35 degree day. It was bloody awful, the staff did try by giving us bottles of water. On another trip, this time on the Brisbane service rock throwers struck near Taree, shattering a window on one car and cracking a few others. On the same trip drunks got into a huge brawl near Macksville and the police removed them from the train which caused a one hour delay. On another trip to Brisbane the rear power car failed on Border Loop. The driver did his best but the lead engine overheated and shut down. With no A/C and only emergency lights it was a misery as we wated for rescue by a locomotive which from memory was a 442 class. In all the hundreds of trips I've done in loco hauled trains I don't recall any incidents as bad as the XPTs. I'm very surprised they still run!

[@tressteleg1]

It is a long time since I rode an XPT anywhere. The main memory was how quickly the seat felt very hard. I doubt I ever rode one to Brisbane and with the ridiculously early departures and arrivals, that is unlikely to change. I did ride the Brisbane Limited in the 1960s. You can’t blame the railways for the rocks or yobbos. It’s still not a good look.

[@marcconyard5024]

tressteleg1 yes, the first generation seating was touted by the state government as slick "airline type" seating. I made a trip to Dubbo about a month after the XPT entered service and found the seats appallingly uncomfortable and the pitch in economy wasn't designed for anyone with long legs. Thankfully that changed with the first refurbishments. As for the early arrivals/departures on the Brisbane service, it's worse now more than ever.

[@hans2406]

It all boils down to maintenance, or lack of.

[@tressteleg1]

If contracts are not yet let for XPT replacements, then they can’t be far away. I think the idea is to have some sort of rail motor to replace the Endeavours and Explorers as well and thus do any job.

[@AnonyDave]

@@tressteleg1 A million times this. No one will believe me that those seats are uncomfortably hard, but after an hour or two a concrete seat feels softer.

[@PaulNoake]

Interesting power control

[@tressteleg1]

Yes. They were quite efficient and were phased out much to soon. At least one is in working order now, maybe a second one as well.

[@daniellefko6527]

35 YEARS of locos and XPT now.

[@tressteleg1]

😊

[@brucektrain1]

In the video. What's the steam loco is doing at Penrith??

[@tressteleg1]

+Brucektrain Trainspotting After steam locos were phased out around 1970 the only time one went anywhere was for some sort of railfan trip, or historical event such as 100 years since the railway reached some town etc.

[@brucektrain1]

Looking at Website where says "3026T had been operational for lengthy periods from the 1970s to the 1990’s but is currently under overhaul at Cowra." (Source - www.australiansteam.com/3026T.htm )

[@volgrencr221]

why was the indian pacific hauld from central to lithgow by a SRA electric loco and not a company ownd indian pacific CL bull dog nose SMD?(at the time this whould have been filmed the main loco for that train when it was hauld by its own loco was a CL

[@tressteleg1]

You should read up on your history before asking questions like this. The train was in government ownership until 1997, 11 years after this video was made.

[@garrythompson210]

I dont know who tressteleg1 is but I dont think he knows much about 86 and 85 classes, the difference was that the 85 class did not have a backward transition from series parallel to series, the 86 class did, both were good riding engines ( compared to the 46 class) . if you had a 86 and 85 class together the 85 class had to lead , if you had the 86class leading and did a backward transition you would blow the wheels off the 85 class

[@tressteleg1]

Your knowledge of those two classes of locomotives are far beyond what I would be describing is not much knowledge. I never worked for the railways although did get quite a few sly drives of suburban and interurban electric trains as well as one 44 and one 86. Essentially I am just a cameraman and present additional information which I believe is usually fairly correct. Sorry if that is not good enough for you.

[@aydoyt]

The 86 class are now getting scrapped :-(

[@tressteleg1]

All but about three were scrapped quite some years ago. One has been restored to working order and possibly a second one by now, maybe a third is in the pipeline.

[@carisi2k11]

Maybe they should have put the 86 on the back of the XPT to get it home.

[@tressteleg1]

+Craig Simpson Actually the front engine managed the hills quite well as it did the 145km/h after Penrith.

[@brucektrain1]

How long they have used run 86 Class on IP services? and where they will get change of loco?

[@tressteleg1]

+Brucektrain Trainspotting When new the Indian Pacific was hauled by 46 class electric locos. From the early 1980s 86 class took over. They continued to do so until 1994. I suspect that it was seen as too much bother to change electric and diesel locos at the end of the wire. And as shown in the video, that was at Lithgow.

[@geoffreyscott5701]

8644 is parked at Chullora it looks sad

[@tressteleg1]

Geoffrey Scott One has been returned to operation with at least one more expected to follow but I don’t know their numbers. No matter how shabby, 8644 is much better than nearly all the rest which were cut up. Such a waste because private operators could not be bothered changing Locos where the wires ended

[@JohnSmith-sh1cu]

latest on 8649 from saturday moved from werris creek to clyde up yards with plans to get it running very soon to join 8606:- kzbin.info/www/bejne/pX_FlXh9iMefa9E

[@WorldOfTransit]

What year was this filmed? My only ever journey on the IP was on 10 September 1988 which at that time was Double 86's till Lithgow. Paxman Valenta's sound better than the VP150's which replaced the original power plants. The restored prototype HST power van in Britain has kept its Valenta - search my channel for videos of it at the Mid Norfolk Railway to see how she sounds. Keep up the good work!

[@tressteleg1]

+WorldOfTransit If you did not skip through my video you would have seen at the start that it was 1986. I did hear that engine modifications/changes were made as the original engines could not handle the constant changing of engine speeds due to our lines being much more hilly than in the UK.

[@WorldOfTransit]

Actually I didn't just skip through this nor any of your videos I;ve watched actually, just miised seeing it the first time through.

[@tressteleg1]

+WorldOfTransit My apologies! Other people have asked obvious questions and then admitted they skip. Sorry to include you in that. As much as possible I put the date, accurate or approximate right at the start of a video although sometimes to protect a still-working tram or train driver I am vague about the date as I would hate somebody to get sacked because of a video favour they did for me. I hope you continue to enjoy what I post.

[@tressteleg1]

WorldOfTransit The date was 9.11.1986 as is clearly shown at the start. Wherever possible ,give the date at the start of all my videos. Glad you liked it.

[@jasonthedogcatcher]

5:19 Benny Hill driving the xpt. Is there anything that he couldn't do?

[@TCFan30]

I thought it was Gilligan.

[@dannygayler90]

it's a terrible shame the 86s were outlawed do to bureaucratic in fighting , of the power used by these once powerful Locos and really the Govt and its Bureaucrats can't see the forest for the trees ?

[@tressteleg1]

Unfortunately the freight side of things was sold off to private operators who obviously would have found it a lot of bother to change locos at Broadmeadow, Lithgow, etc so took the easy way out. Also with the split up of the railways, I expect private operators would have to pay CityRail for both the use of electricity and running rights on the wire, a problem not encountered ed with diesels. While I agree with you, I see the biggest problem being privatisation where company profits come ahead of all else.

[@Johnfromaustralia]

The only thing I don't like about in-cab xpt vids is there always too short. I personally love the xpt regardless of faults, as all trains have that. Problem is the funding is not being either supplied to maintain proper maintenance and or the government is too stingy in making it happen.

[@tressteleg1]

When this video was taken in the 1980s, something like KZbin was not even the wildest of dreams so generally there was no reason to try to video a long journey. As for the XPTs, I supposed they were maintained almost good enough for most of their lives, but currently Trains to replace both XPTs and the various other rail motors are on order from CAF in Spain (who hopefully will provide a better product than their second rate L1 Sydney trams) so XPT maintenance would obviously be in decline now.

[@nothingtoseehere4902]

Even then the XPT sucked..

[@tressteleg1]

nothing to see here In fact when the XPT first appeared it captured the public's imagination and ?free rides to Penrith and back to demonstrate its speed were very well patronised. Certainly at that time, nothing was as fast in NSW or most states. In earlier years they were overworked and that is possibly why the rear loco had not been repaired, or air con fixed. Not long after arriving in Sydney on one trip, they were off on another. More recently it has been let down by lousy trackwork which today's 'experts' seem to be unable to raise to the standards of earlier years, so the XPT maximum speeds have been reduced. Will anything better replace them? I doubt it.

[@nothingtoseehere4902]

tressteleg1 I used to take it from Casino to Sydney. I love trains but when they are filled with single mothers and boongs it takes the fun out of train travel.

[@nitroware]

The story I heard(read) was during those tests, V-sets were instructed not to overtake the XPT on the main west , but sometimes did so anyway... So yes nothing has changed

[@tressteleg1]

+D Yes, I heard all of that a long time ago. I know that the maximum speed of a V set on level track like out west was at least 130km/h which is not bad although trains on my local Gold Coast line are required to do that in normal service - on 3'6" or 1067mm gauge!

[@TCFan30]

Have a cry fat boy

[@simonprice8737]

Strange to hear how much your XPT sucked they were directly derived from the HST train which is still running extensively on the UK network often at speeds in excess of 100 mph and in places up to 125 mph, they are loved and respected here and were actually at the time of introduction considered the saviour of British inter city services, they have been re engines, refurbished and had interlocking doors fitted, they are still considered the height of luxury, but are showing their age so after millions of miles of sterling service of over 40 yrs they are retiring from most main lines and being replaced by Hiatatchi Bi modes capable of 140 mph and better braking, acceleration, interesting video, cheers, I suspect that track and carriage design as well as original unrefurbished motor units and age have much to do with your XPT problems....cheers

[@tressteleg1]

I don’t know what you mean by ‘sucked’. But I think you may have been unaware of a few points. Britain may describe a grade of 1 in 100 as being steep. We call miles and miles of 1 in 30 and one in 40 as being steep. Climbing the Blue Mountains west of Sydney is like that, while returning to Sydney from the north has several miles of something like 1 in 40. Such climbs knocks the trains around, combined with main line curves requiring a speed drop to maybe as little as 60km/h in places with successive governments much preferring to pour money into highways rather than keeping rail track up to scratch, the result being track in much less than perfect order. All these factors shorten the life of trains, XPTs included. And when those trains first came out the public did see them as something super. Their gloss has since faded. And with our very much longer distances, nearly everyone flies interstate or drives. People prefer them to buses, but that is about all. What their replacements will be, who knows? But at least our rail fares are somewhat more affordable than yours. :-)

[@hcrun]

Disappointing - and somewhat odd - that you had nothing at all of the line up through the Blue Mts.

[@tressteleg1]

+Bruce Kennewell I thought that I had taken more, but obviously not. You have to remember that at that time there was no such thing as KZbin. Nobody was ever going to watch my videos, so I just enjoyed the ride. My attitude is different now with people like you to enjoy whatever I can get.