Cable Testing - are Audiophiles Right?

In this video 'Cable Testing - are Audiophiles Right? ' I will show test the cables I use for Audio testing using the Omicron Lab Bode 100. #docablesmakeadifference #CableTesting #Bode100 #OmicronLab
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[@edwardbit8225]

Excellent, audiofoolery eposed by a man who well knows his craft.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks so much!!

[@rogeronslow1498]

Hey Eddie, you need a bigger bench. No space to work due to all the instruments.

[@KissAnalog]

LOL - you are right!

[@versace885]

Hi Eddie, another excellent video, thank you so much for the great tutoring.😁💯

[@KissAnalog]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@markweikle5645]

I've been talking to a surgeon about getting audiophile ears that can detect differences in cables. He tells me it's going to be expensive but I really want the best sound I can get!

[@offspringfan89]

😂🤣

[@KissAnalog]

LMAO - I'll bet the consultation was expensive - did he sell cables in the lobby?

[@markweikle5645]

@KissAnalog He's a "Sales Agent" for a Cable company on the side.

[@fredflintstone8048]

I believe that in order for the tests to be useful to the audiophile you'll need a couple of additional inputs for plotting: Mood Placebo effect

[@KissAnalog]

LOL - perfect!!!

[@MrMersh-ts7jl]

When you turn around in the beginning of your video you really have to say, " oh didn't see you there, hey guys it's Eddie..."

[@KissAnalog]

Yes - you are right!

[@jakubczajka4275]

Another interesting video with measurements! For years I have been using "interconnects" made of regular Neutrix RCA connectors and 1 metre of ordinary 75 Ohm coaxial cable. I have used the same cable, but terminated with 75 Ohm BNCs for SPDIF. I am not crazy enough to pay more than a few quid for bloody cables. Thanks Eddie!

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for sharing! You have had it right for many years;)

[@SaeligCoInc]

We find that QuantAsylum QA403 is a great piece of gear too! So are PicoScopes!

[@KissAnalog]

Yes they are!

[@DW11111]

I had to click as soon as I got my coffee. Can't wait to watch! EDIT - Your tshirt game is ALWAYS on point! EDIT2 - I love how you not only explain things, but we get to see the lab results in "real time". Much more fun to see versus static images in a paper. EDIT3 - Thank you for showing what most of us know- signal propagation rules don't magically change between 20 and 20k.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks so much! I appreciate you!

[@campbellmorrison8540]

I totally agree the audiofoolery is exposed right here however I would suggest a BNC is probably not a solution for a high powered audio amp for no other reason than its peak current capacity. Many fine wires make good meter probes and speaker wires

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks! Yes, you are right - these cables would be more appropriate for the interconnects. I'll have to do a side by side comparison to a nice set of interconnects.

[@Sylvan_dB]

This is why 16ga lamp "zip" cord from the bulk spool at the hardware store works so well as speaker wire. 14ga might be interesting if you have long runs or very high power subwoofer(s). 12ga isn't much more, so use it for silly excess to eliminate all doubt. Of course, it isn't NEC approved to run lamp cord thru the walls, so you shouldn't do that. Look for CL2 rated speaker wire. If you stay away from the big name brands, you won't pay big name prices to get big name performance. Go up one size if using copper-coated aluminum (CCA).

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for your great feedback! I'll test speaker cables soon - that should be interesting!

[@Aletsch]

Largely, no. Amazing for fleecing muppets though ;) Literally any wire with a load appropriate level of copper; And when it comes to signal level, coaxial format without wildly high capacitance, job done :)

[@Aletsch]

The other thing that amuses me is that particular section of the audiophile crowd seldom stops to consider what all that music gets recorded and mixed on.

[@Aletsch]

Oh, and another final one: the usually completely ignored room treatment factor. Not unusal for folks to have the 'best setup in the world', and place it in a room that booms and echoes like mad. Damping down excessive room reflections, and notching out room resonances with bass traps or dsp is absolutely crucial for good sound reproduction, and for reducing listening fatigue.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for the tips! I appreciate you!

[@Aletsch]

@@KissAnalog one other thing that comes to mind, the more objectively inclined high fidelity audio appreciators should give well made active monitors an open minded listening session. Each amp section designed to run each driver, fully isolated, and directly driven over a few centimeters of internal cable (look ! Mono blocks everywhere ! (And the 'best' even use discrete mosfets (though modern dmos tdas are stunningly good)). Also crystal clear active crossovers that don't screw up the amplifier coupling to the driver, or add colouration. Yet passive speakers still persist. Also, theres a lot to be said for passive radiators instead of ports, tune them *low* and you get the the transient response of a closed/infinite baffle speaker, with the bass reach of a ported box, in a compact cabinet with no port chuffing and so on. On that note, the old mackie hr series monitors popular in studios in the 90s and 2000s come to mind as an off the shelf 'budget' option for those not looking to burn a luxuary cars worth of money, and do pretty well out of the deal :)

[@johnshaw359]

Some audiophile cables use a shielded twisted pair with a screen terminated at one end, but you say that's nonsense. You live and you learn. p.s Perhaps skin effect might be a factor and croc clips will be horrible as the frequency becomes significant.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for your feedback! Shielding and terminating at one end can be useful - but when I said that I was talking about power cables;) Skin effect barely starts to come into affect in the audio frequency range.

[@Roosville1]

There is some context. If you have a low impedance source, (emitter follower, op-amp ect) and driving into a reasonable source resistance (10K-47K) with a cable with a length of ~1m or so, there is no effect for audio. So DAC to preamp, pre to power CD player streamer all these, forget it. However if your source impedance is a electro-magnetic generator (AKA moving coil / magnet Phono cartridge) then some cables will have an excess in capacitance that combined with the motor complex source impedance will have an effect within the audio range. Do you need to spend a lot on better cables, nah, cable and connectors are cheap, even the "good" stuff. If you really need to spend cash on a connector then I highly recommend Southwest Microwave who make some great 1.0mm connectors, DC to 110GHz......

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for the great feedback! I will look into their connectors;)

[@DiegoooTech]

Cables nearly make no difference. The effects Audiofoolers use as snake oil can be something way beyond audio frequencies and probably over 1 mhz.

[@KissAnalog]

Yes, the cables show really no difference out to 1 MHz or more. I’m showing the full bandwidth of the Omicron Lab Bode 100 (40 MHz). This is really not even high frequency at 40 MHz - relative to what we deal with these days.

[@paulb4661]

​@@KissAnalogThat's precisely the argument one outlet based their findings on. Believe it, or not, they have "found" a correlation between radio frequency response and... "audible" characteristics of the interconnects "under test". Following that spirited presentation, firmly based on "science", I needed a surgical procedure to re-align my jaw- it dropped and hit the floor. I guess it's all down to feasibility. Say, Ltp and especially Vas topology, may well be responsible for the audible character of an amplifier and determine its objective sound quality, but an inerconnect can be made for pennies and cost a fortune! It's an alternative "upgrade" path, that does not require any knowledge, or a workshop, for those seeking improvement. Chrome exhaust and go faster stripes in a user friendly package, to an extent.

[@Nightjar726]

Man, how do I contact you? I have a Marantz DAC and I want someone to change out a couple voltage regulators to lower the noise and clean the power even more. Do you do stuff like that ? Can I send it to you? I can’t find a good tech in California who will do that for me. Cheers

[@mbak7801]

The hint is you cannot find a tech dishonest enough to rip you off. I could fit some $10,000 regulators for you. Don't bother testing anything afterwards. Your instruments will not be sensitive enough. Rely on your ears and think of the cost. God audiophiles make it is so easy.

[@KissAnalog]

@Nightjar726 Why do you think you need low noise regulators? @mbak7801 might be right. What is the Part Number? I'd like to look at the schematic. You can always email me: [e-mail]

[@Nightjar726]

@@KissAnalog thanks man. I emailed you and the service manual so you can look at the schematic. I so appreciate it

[@jp040759]

I hope OSHA doesn't see your lab. I think you have exceeded to limit of how high you can stack gear. A safety cage is definitely in order if there is and avalanche. LOL.

[@KissAnalog]

LOL you are probably right;)

[@thinkIndependent2024]

Eddie you mislabeled the video, Cables are not the PROBLEM connectors ARE!!! Poor Quality connectors can lead to bad Audio just like connectors on meters or scopes.

[@KissAnalog]

Yes, I think that is right - but first you have to trust the cables. Next we will find out how we can trust the connector.

[@kb6dxn]

To check a cable you need a signal injected and then measure the other end with a spectrum analyzer for signal loss. Not all 50 ohm cables are equal at a given frequency, I use a spectrum analyzer to test cables.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for the feedback! what frequencies do you look at? Most Spectrum Analyzers don't go down less than 9 kHz.

[@lambdaprog]

Audiofools are quite funny.

[@KissAnalog]

I'd have to agree;) But, I think we need to take back the name Audiophile;)

[@billdomitilli8125]

Who knew speaker cables were RESISTIVE! Sweep them. No significant reactance in the audio range. P.T. Barnum was right, there's a sucker born every minute. If you want low loss, buy some low gauge copper jumper cables with lots of strands.

[@KissAnalog]

LOL Did P.T. Barnum have an Audiophile cable business?

[@g0fvt]

To be contentious I have made interconnects using the likes of RG174 for audio, a disaster. Ordinary audio gear you might have a source impedance of a few kilohms and a load of perhaps 47 kilohms. The system sees the interconnect as primarily a capacitor across the signal path. A friend is a bit of a crazy audiophile, at one point I did persuade him to try twisted pairs taken from CAT5 cable between his CD player and amplifier (plenty of signal so hum is not a big problem) and he was surprised by the better treble. Of course using 50 ohm cable with a low Z source and a Hi Z load you can easily see where the cable apparently exhibits gain. (Particularly when the cable is electrically an odd number of quarterwaves long). Try perhaps your swept frequency test into a Hi-Z scope with no termination load.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for your feedback! I should try a RG174 cable - I don't think I've every used one one of those for Audio. The Audio signal, albeit small - is not as small as the RF that RG174 is typically used for. It is a small diameter cable...I'll have to look into this.

[@g0fvt]

@@KissAnalog thanks for the reply, the point was more that a cable like RG174 has a capacitance of about 100pF/m. With audio the characteristic impedance does not get in the way so much because relative to a wavelength the cables are very short. Generally with audio work "ports" are not impedance matched to the cables. Audiophiles do like to imagine all sorts of effects from interconnects but an impedance matched test is not a representation of how we wire audio equipment.

[@g0fvt]

P.S I have a NanoVNA a fantastic piece of test equipment for a multitude of RF applications. One thing to be wary of is the limited number of data points if you overly "zoom" existing data instead of doing another sweep. Not having a pop, but it is not a great tool to test audio cables.

[@pbaemedan]

Eddie, trying to shirt around transmission lines and Telegrapher equations makes the presentation disjointed and lacks technical information. Characteristic impedance is a combination of the DC resistance and complex Impedance. Your argument about the DC resistance being the primary factor for cable response in the audio range is very important, but it loses its importance in the disjointed presentation. I'm sorry, but there is reflections at each point where the cable changes from coaxial to parallel to twisted configurations. My recommendation is do not shy away from the mathematics and video length to demonstrate your technical point.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks - you are right! I kept trying to shorten it - as it was about twice as long. I was hoping it made sense. I'll have to do a short video explaining the science/math to couple with this video.

[@pbaemedan]

Eddie, coaxial cable is easy and convenient to use. Coax provides an excellent electric field path for the guided wave, but the wave travels in the material between the center conductor and the outer shield. My recommendation for low frequency cables (frequency < 100 KHz) is twisted shielded pairs with the shield terminated at the source end only. The twisting reduces the magnetic field by reducing the size of the loop, and the shield reduces the electric field by decreasing the capacitance. A good source of information on transmission lines and interference coupling is in chapter 4 of Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility by Dr. Clayton Paul.

[@AmazonasBiotop]

Audiophiles are always right.😊 The problem is they don't have the technical skills to understand why. The testing on speaker cables has all the wrong focus! It is not the cable that should be tested in isolation. Audiophiles sometimes can hear and it is actually in some cases rather high difference! But in other and in majority of systems there is more or less no difference, that's why we have two camps. It is not that some has golden ears and others haven't. They used different systems! (Even if they used the exactly the same speaker cable, you see where this is going.😂) So everyone can see that it is not the speaker cable that should be tested. It is maybe a frequency sweep trough a certain combination of power amp and speaker (a system). With different cables. It is the ability of the Poweramp (damping factor) to drive a variable speaker load (remember resistance is varying with frequency on a speaker). And we have energy from the Poweramp that drive the coil out in the magnetic field. That is punching it from the resting position where the spider and the surround is trying to drag it back. When the coil goes back in the magnetic field that the stored energy in the spider and surround has. Then it generates power like a dynamo that power is sent back to the Poweramp. So that is happening with all systems but some speakers is more demanding and some some Poweramp handle this not that good.. That combination makes it easier to hear difference between cables. Then we have speaker cables that has a box in the middle of the wire. Typically for transparent cables. It contains a RLC filter to help out and you can also tell transparent what speakers and Poweramp you use and they can tune the filter for that combo. So it match better..😅 So testing one components from a whole system is pointless. If you want to find out if there is a difference in speaker cables. The right way to look at it is that in that specific system there is (or not) a hearable difference between cable A and B. Totally wrong test bed and metrology to just looking at a wire. That is pulled out of it context.❤

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I do have to contradict you though - but this is exactly the proper context. Putting a bunch of parts together and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't is an impossible journey - thus the audiophile world as it is today. I'm not actually talking about speaker cables - but more interconnects. Small signal cables. The tests here show that the signals are absolutely flat in impedance, so they will not react different in any system - they offer o response. I even show how the high frequency considerations that people talk about - do not even have any effect at the low frequency - which audio is. And at these low frequencies the resistance is in the milliohms. These cables would be essentially invisible in the system. Super low DC resistance - flat impedance. Reflections and other High Frequency issues are nonexistent in audio - as I have shown here. Regarding speaker cables - I'll do a video on those in the future. Since they are in the signal path - as is the interconnects - but also have power - there will be more to test. I'll also test actual interconnects as well:)

[@gordthor5351]

Audiophiles waste their money on expensive snake oil cables. Not me, I bought a big bottle of snake oil and I soak my cheap cables in it. Problem solved.

[@ericmc6482]

Typical coaxial interconnect cables exhibit characteristic impedance and Vp which are related to conductor diameters and spacings and dielectric behaviours. Conductors and dielectrics (IE cables) exhibit low level noise behaviours which drive interconnected equipment intrinsic excess noise behaviours. System overall noise behaviour (timbre/signature/voicing) is the complex product of these noise sources complex interactions. IOW expect audio systems to sound (at least subtly) different according to cabling. Standard sinewave testing cannot and will not discriminate system dynamic excess noise behaviours. Eddie this video is just plain barking up the wrong tree and does nothing to disprove what educated ears know well, sorry about that. And BTW, please comprehend that noise is actual information and is anything but white, once this concept is taken on board then fuller understanding of multiple octave range audio system behaviours is starkly revealed. Lecture over, I hope you learned something today.

[@paulb4661]

Lectur eon what? Noise behaviour? What is that exactly? Combination of overheard jargon and conjecture to arrive at a "proof" of a vaguely stated thesis? You can do better than that.

[@jakubczajka4275]

Your post has reminded me about "Fashionable Nonsense" by Alan Sokal. This book was a good laugh. I have to read it again.

[@KissAnalog]

Thanks for your feedback. Music does contain complex waveforms - but all within the 20 kHz bandwidth, so if there is no impedance in a cable - it doesn't matter what music you listen to - the cable will not interact. Simple as that.

[@ericmc6482]

​@@KissAnalogCorrect, in the audio bandwidth cable characteristic impedance interactions are not a factor. However cable noise interactions with system intrinsic noise are way more important than is generally realised. The dynamic complex noise resulting at system output is formally termed 'excess noise' and is a physics subject in itself. The production of system excess noise can be altered/reduced by filtering at system input, Bybee Quantum Purifier is one example of commercially available filtering device. Cables are indeed quantum filters also, the magnitude and the nature of the filtering is according to the materials used in the DUT cable. This is the elephant in the room that sine testing does not reveal. So in answer to your video question, yes audio professionals are correct in findings of cables altering system sounds, this is to be expected because physics. I have not found way to discriminate cable 'sounds' real time but comparison of loopback recordings does reveal very interesting differences according to DUT cables.

[@ericmc6482]

​@@paulb4661Please study up on '1/f noise' and 'excess noise'. You're welcome.

[@peanutbutterjellyjam2179]

Audiophiles will tell you that unless your cables are cryogenically treated, and installed directionally, that your measurements don't matter.❤❤❤

[@Audiojunkabus]

I am tired of all Audiophiles being grouped together....just dumb...really

[@mbak7801]

What do you call one audiophile. 'Dumb'. What is the collective term 'Dumber'. I am amazed they have the intellect to remember to breath. It is so laughable. To be fair though they are so dumb that it is easy to make a lot of money out of them.

[@DW11111]

You forgot the most important part of the process: the 100 hour break in especially on power cables! Break in is everything! It will lift veils and the better half will hear the difference from the kitchen!

[@KissAnalog]

@audiojunkabus I agree. I think we should take back the name Audiophile and maybe name the others Audiophools There are a number of options:)

[@KissAnalog]

@DW11111 you are right! LOL I did have a mix of new and burned in cables;)