Caleb Miller's response to Ryan Rufus's attack on the doctrine of inclusion

[@theservant7771]

Fantastic rebuttal. You have beautifully articulated the exact misunderstandings that are so very common in those coming out of the evangelical/ Pentecostal backgrounds... the guilt and shame that walk out of the system with... all the works and hard times spent trying to make "God" be on our side is hard to release... Well said and well done... very tactful 😇🕊😇

[@alnewberry]

Great approach, Caleb. I love how respectful, gentle, and generous you are here in your response.

[@Koontz2462]

It's such a joy learning new and exciting things about the Bible. Thank you both for INSIGHT.

[@kenbillings7321]

Thank you Caleb I often feel overwhelmed when trying to share the simple truths you express in the rebuttal. I have found that inclusion demands we just be who we are created to be and not do what to do to become. There is no boasting in inclusion and my father has told me I am because of Him , not something I do.

[@garybird4062]

Thanks Caleb. It is really, really useful to do the video like this, interjecting at different points during the Rufus video. I often see stuff and think what would Baxter say etc. Brilliant! Please do more stuff like this and I hope it catches on!

[@andrelefebvre5453]

Thank you Caleb, your responses were to the point, although I think Ryan presents a more "evangelical" view, based on what "generally" accepted, a sort of middle of the road and rather stiff position on a various number of topics. It's like using a grid to look at things and pretend that this is what "truth" or "understanding" is. I love that Father God "included" Himself in our humanity, in Christ, and later by the indwelling Spirit. I love the thought of being included and look forward to gain more light and understanding, so that I can hopefully experience an awakened relationship with the Triune God (which is how He chose to reveal Himself).

[@MARZChicago]

It seems to me that those who believe "as in Adam all die , so in Christ ALL will be made alive" are attacked and ridiculed for believing Jesus is actualy the savior of the world.It also seems like those who deny inclusion are very angry at the thought.Kind of like the older brother in the prodigal son parable.Thank you for this video , keep up the great work my brother.Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, especially those that believe.

[@ShayneHolesgrove]

I don't know if I should be saying that I enjoyed that so much that I laughed often? But I enjoyed it... Very insightful and has made me want to go study it even further. Thanks Caleb!

[@bluemagic5]

I wish I knew why we as believer find it hard to except that Jesus is a sufficient Savior to the world HE created. but instead western Christianity finds reason to exclude most people to a hell that they wont go to. or are hated by their god and are cursed. I'm confused to what ministry is from that stand point.. Caleb you and your father has blessed me very much. Keep on doing what you do!!!!!!! GB

[@loveneverfails.521]

I pray that Ryan among many others will very soon see the truth of inclusion because the truth really does set us free. God bless you brother and thank you for your humility and understanding you have a lovely way about you in answering rebuttals..

[@BasRijksen]

Great sharing. Thanks Caleb!

[@BrookPotter]

Excellent job, Caleb.

[@TheMorning_Son]

Inclusion? I just started listening to Carlton Pearson he believes that illl pick up his book and yours.

[@Pureheartseminars]

Where are the lists of books you mentioned?

Hello Caleb, great video and the way you communicate back is bases on further dialogue. Did you hear about Lynn Hayes? He preached from the Hebrew scriptures and have shown that lot's of the translations have lot's off errors. Do you read also Hebrews? If not, i think lot's of things you believe resonate with what he teaches out of the Hebrew scriptures.

[@EightyFiveMillion]

Thanks Caleb, you know I have a lot of respect for Ryan and what they do at City Church. His dad's teaching really opened my eyes to grace.. i dont know you caleb but you seem like a solid dude too and i agree that showing love and respect for each other is so critically important even if we don't agree. Ill be honest, I feel like there has to be some kind of a balance to whats going on and being said, and they maybe even the truth lies somewhere inbetween what both are saying. for the record, i dont think ryan is dogging belief in the trinity...I do agree that lumping all three together doesn't really give an accurate picture, and how adding -ism makes almost anything sound scarey.. I really dig the light that inclusion has shed on the work of Christ. I believe everyone was included in Christ too. What would happen if someone that wasn't included in Christ's death believed in Him, would He have to go and die again? Ofcourse not.. I believe that there is a universal nature to what he has done. I think the area where both seem to get go awry for me is this. The voices that really emphasize inclusion don't really give a clear picture of how that salvation is received by faith - and it seems to be a subject that is avoided altogether.. Universalism is essentially a transaction-less salvation. You already have it, and it comes across as an ignorance-free or rejection-free or transaction-free salvation. But the fact is is that you can reject it, or you could live your whole life in ignorance of it and therefore not enjoy the benefits of it. I still believe that faith receives the already provided inclusion of the gospel and that is where i think these two roads meet.... On the other side of the coin, I don't think that faith is what most people think it is, and thats one of the big misunderstandings and foggy areas in all of this. faith has become something of a work in the modern church, and i think a lot of the inclusion supporters are trying to get rid of the idea that faith generates salvation instead of faith being something that believes and receives what has already been done.. i don't know if that has been outright said yet or not, but thats the gist of what i feel im hearing... anyways, love to you both, you are both brothers and men of God.. any thoughts on this Caleb?

[@steventilley6575]

Spot on good stuff!! :)

[@scubasquad2995]

Caleb what does Ryan mean when we says we are to be baptized in Christ and what is you take on that? I have been a Christian for a long time and I still do not understand that theology. It is hard for me to grasp it because then others, in my opinion seem to be excluded from God's love. Do you agree?

[@MaxAmoeba]

***** Well said...at Pentecost Peter proclaimed "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"....The prophet Joel said "In that day I will pour out my Spirit on ALL FLESH". We all have the Holy Spirit in us but we must receive the truth to understand His voice and enter into relationship. He is in you so "Receive Him".

[@bdn9690]

Also Calib, just wondering if in your research you've come across some solid documentation on the council in 543 AD in regards to the Origon teaching and how it was deemed universalism and possibly heretical? Im trying to find some definite facts but just seem to find a lot of opinions. Thanks if you get a chance.

[@bdn9690]

Christopher Ensminger Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the timing, more than you could imagine. I’m just about 100 pages into That ALL shall be saved, by David Bentley Hart, which I bought on just this Sunday, and also ordered his New Testament translation paperback same day. So for you to reply to a comment I made 5 years ago, and lead with David Bentley Hart in it is quite astonishing timing. If I was following a compass, I’d say that was a strong indication I was pointing True North. Green light from the Lord as far as I’m concerned. Thanks again, I will look up his email.

[@levicrawford85]

Caleb has beautiful eyes. He's a lot more attractive than this Rufus character. I like his bed. I wonder what its like to lay in it.

[@MaxAmoeba]

I attended a Southern Baptist church for awhile when I was very young, I don't remember much about what was taught there. I was given an NAS Bible by my Grandmother in my early teens with no real doctrine, just a comment that inside The Book was the answer to all the things I would need in life. I first read it cover to cover somewhere around the age of seventeen. I have read it straight through three times since. Some books I have read more times than I can remember...John, Romans and Ephesians in the new Genesis, Job and Ecclesiastes are probably my favorites. I never shared what I had come to believe and I never read Christian books or commentaries. Everything I know of the Bible I learned alone with the guidance of the Spirit. It was not until my early thirties that I decided that I wanted fellowship with other believers and I've since attended several different denominations...not one of them accepted what I came to understand as the truth in the scriptures. Some were openly hostile and others politely (want for right word), not one was welcoming or even curious. It was not until maybe two years ago that I accidently ran across one of Rob Bell's Pnuema videos called Rhythm here on KZbin while I was looking for guitar lesson videos that I felt I had found someone who saw God the way that I did. I have been following the trail ever since. I don't know what label people would put on me and frankly I don't care. I know in my very being that all are taken back to God in the end and that Christ The Son came to show us this. I have been sharing my beliefs now that I know I am not alone with an understanding that the churches cannot or will not accept. Those most would count as lost crave to hear more and those who belong to churches call me a heretic. I have found one thing in common with all denominations from my discussions with their members. They all LOVE the doctrine of eternal torment in Hell. I do not use the word love lightly because they will accept differing views of Christ's death on the cross, His resurrection, predestination and just about any other tenant of doctrine that a Christians should be found believing, even though it differs from their own and changes the heart of the Gospel they believe. They will accept these differences and say all is well, Christ is being preached. But if you tell them that you believe Christ died for every man's sin and so all sin is forgiven. If you tell them that all have been justified because of Christ. If you tell them that Jesus saved the world just as He was sent to do and that there may be a period of temporary chastisement before we are ready and brought into the Kingdom they will crucify you in any way aside of literal. All I can say is I see God at work teaching the human race about evil from the beginning so that in the end we will be truly righteous. If I can see this everywhere in the pages of The Bible with no guidance from a man then either God is true or He has allowed me to be deceived when I was alone with only Him. As Paul wrote "there MUST BE divisions among you in order to show what is acceptable." Cling to what you will but eternal torment in Hell is the world's greatest blasphemy against the character of God ever divised. Satan is not here preaching Buddha as an angel of light and his ministers are not teaching New Age mumbo jumbo....they are in the pulpits preaching Jesus...weak...powerless...submissive to man and a failure. Satan doesn't simply prey on your desire for revenge he is preying on your desire to somehow cleaner than another man and he has hidden the purpose of evil in the world. Christ is in you, quit trying to bring Him down from Heaven to you or raise yourself up to Him....believe...and the new life you will have can begin to be experienced here. either that or live perishing in your struggle and wait your turn.

[@MaxAmoeba]

***** Absolutely.

[@MaxAmoeba]

***** This is kinda funny Nick because over the last few weeks I have been teaching the truth concerning universal salvation to a new friend on Facebook. He is also a member of an Adventist church but has been very open to the message. I will certainly check out Stephen Jones blog because the trail I have been following is leading me to other believers and its nice to fellowship with others of like mind. The belief that God will in the end save all of His creation has always been my understanding of scripture, the problem was that for many years I thought I was the only one who believed it. Still despite the fact that many Christians and a few ministers tried their best to "show me the error of my ways" I never have wavered from my belief. Here is one of the tricks they use in debating their point of view...it has always made me chuckle a bit. The scriptures speak of ALL mankind, the world, All nations and families All over the place and when it comes to people being sinners they readily agree that ALL mankind are sinners and deserving of death. But if the word ALL appears in scripture that relates to salvation they change ALL to really mean SOME. For example I love this verse because of its plainly stated simplicity "As in Adam ALL die, SO ALSO in Christ ALL shall be made alive" traditionalist believers simply cannot accept that second ALL and so they will say that it really means ALL with exceptions...another way of saying "SOME". For some reason the direct comparison to Adam totally escapes them. Because of Adam all die so also (in the same way) in Christ all WILL BE made alive. At the same time they have told me that I twist the scriptures, this is the danger of being wedded to doctrine. Not all doctrine is a bad thing. The truth properly taught would be consistent and therefore can be called a doctrine. I don't think people oppose Christian Universalism because they fear, I think the fear because they don't accept a loving God who will save all But for the most part I have found that people like to feel special and in their feeling of being special is closer to feeling superior. We can all be included in the Kingdom and still feel special in the heart of God but we cannot feel special in the sense of superiority unless some are judged to be less than me. For that type of specialness some must be "out" while we get to be "in" I once saw a "Christian" T-Shirt for sale, on it were these words " I am an overcomer, enjoy the Lake of Fire LOSER" So while I wholeheartedly agree with your closing words we must also wrestle to correct doctrine that bears evil fruits. This for the health of the believers but especially for the non-believers who are living broken lives and cannot accept a relationship with the God they have been presented with.

[@MaxAmoeba]

***** Well Nick, at least you had ears to hear and took the correction to heart. Making the move to post a correction to your error is a thing many would not have done. I don't see pride here at all, you erred, took the correction to heart and quickly made it right. We all make mistakes, the key is to correct them as best you can and move on. If you don't then soon you will find yourself trapped by a law of your own making. I completely understand the feeling you expressed concerning those who call themselves Christian but seem to relish the idea that God will turn away others to torment while they are being accepted. They have spread this doctrine for so long that their view of God has become ingrained into the culture and amongst unbelievers to be a Christian is to believe in an unjust and somewhat psychopathic deity. As a Universalist, what little persecution we face in these days comes because we call ourselves Christians and we are judged by the baggage of the traditional view before we ever have a chance to speak of grace. I have always been a Evangelical Universalist (I'm 54 now); I believe in spreading the gospel in order to break the spell of the Christian religion and replace it with Christian faith. I still call myself a Christian but in order to cut through the preprogrammed view of what that means to the vast majority of people I am quick to wear the badge that the religion has placed on me; "Yes I am a Christian, but then I'm also a heretic :)". Usually the tie between my Christian faith and the god of Christian religion is quickly broken. The first question is usually something like "What's a heretic?" and then the door and the ears are open to hear about the One True God who IS love. And so it is not for us to say who is a Christian and who is not, Christ knows the heart when we do not. The religion has defined the label and we must be creative in dealing with it as we really have no choice. What other title defines who we are as followers of Christ? Are there those who call themselves Christians but are nothing more than modern day Pharisees? Oh yeah !!! bunches of em'. Does Paul teach us to "edify, exhort and rebuke"? yeap. Are we called to "defend the hope that we have in us"? yes to that as well, but in facing all of these things we must be "gentle as doves and as cunning as serpents". Let he who wants to carry the name of Christ do so even though we believe they shame Him and defame God. Our task, I believe, in these days is to bring the definition of Christianity back to its original meaning, to clean what has been polluted, but we must do this in accordance with love for those that err. If we do not then we are missing the message ourselves.

[@rickyhayes_author]

Hey Caleb, I just wanted to say good job. I've really loved watching your stuff on youtube. I just had a quick question though about a comment you made to Ryan's video, hopefully you can address it. You made a comment that Jesus died "as" us not "for" us, but there is a lot of translations of 2 Corinthians 5:15 that says "He died for all people." But you said nowhere does the Bible say Jesus died "for" us. All I did was just do a google search and found a bunch of different translations that had "for us" in them except for one. The Aramaic Bible in Plain English (LOL), that says "And he died in the place of every person." Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this...I'd also love it if you could point out some verses that say Jesus died "as" us. Go ahead and wonderfully "offend" me...God does it all the time :)

[@rickyhayes_author]

I thought that was the verse you were leaning toward, "if one died for all..." I was wondering why so many translations have the word "for" rather than "as" because the way it's worded it makes it sound that Christ died "as" us even though it uses the word "for." Good stuff...Thanks for the response Caleb...

[@sigurdsonb5015]

Superb job Caleb...

[@noplacelikeahome]

Well done. Relationship with God is all about trusting in Love. Our doctrines either cloud that love or bring it into clarity. You did the latter here. Blessings! Tell your Dad hi for me.

[@aboundinggraceministriesin1174]

Caleb, How can a get a copy of your book, in PDF that you offered?

[@stevenreed6716]

I'm am really confused on this. what does universalists and inclusionists tackle the book of Revelation? I have never herd Herd John Crowder and others tackle the book if Revelation and the Lake of fire for thous that reject Christ. what about where Christ said I never knew you a way from me thos to be cast in to the fire. somebody give me a biblical viewpoint on this please.

[@stevenreed6716]

But what about Jesus saying I never knew you and when it talks about the lake of fire. These are questions that I feel often get over looked. How does that fit in to inclusionism? Is there any good resources I can look at? PS thank you for replying to my first message.

[@stevenreed6716]

OK and thank your response

[@bdn9690]

On closer inspection, actually what Ryan said was "trinitarian universalism" not trinitarianism.

[@josephprinceanomalies2865]

"They doing a great job"?????? Let me be utterly....direct and with 100% conviction. Yeah....for the devil.

[@nonelost1]

Would a "sinner's prayer" qualify as an incantation of a sorcerer? I never thought of it that way before. Interesting! I always knew that the "sinner's prayer" as a CAUSE of salvation was a joke, though I might allow that an optional "sinner's prayer" may be an EFFECT of the salvation that has already occurred. Though it is not necessary to verbally express a "sinner's prayer" to reflect what has already happened in the heart of the believer, the believer can if s/he wants to.

[@aue82a]

Can someone please tell what it is that I personally have to be forgiven for? I somehow don't feel that need.

[@Jbludford]

Well said Caleb

[@bluemagic5]

I think baptism mean = To be fully sub-merged into the thoughts of Christ, as in fully grasping daily and every day being one with HIM. We all are learning daily to the attributes of our Heavenly Father, therefor are being baptized into His kingdom. It is God who is faithful even when we are unfaithful. It is of His doing we are in Christ.

[@bluemagic5]

I believe that too bro, But is it a ritual or is "to receive His spirit" an interactive relationship of encounter with His thoughts and will toward our live? Live out in every second of the day "LIFE"? I think the latter. Charlie your right," Hes in us All Now"

[@Koontz2462]

I agree with God when he says "ALL NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED." whatever you want to call it GOD LOVES US ALL. GOOD BAD I believe in Mercy rules over JUDGEMENT I believe Jesus sacrifice is what GOD'S LOVE IS ALL ABOUT. I believe Jesus sacrifice brings about unbelievable happiness and joy to ALL. I WILL REMEMBER YOUR SINS NO MORE.....

[@bdn9690]

I know this sounds odd, but i think perhaps ryan meant Unitarianism? Haha I could be wrong, but given his dad views I somehow doubt he meant Trinitarianism. But I cant speak for him. Still we should be careful with what we teach, for it can discredit the other things we say. And thanks Caleb for the reasonable attitude, refreshing for sure.

[@newidentity316]

How would an inclusionist respond to 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. Seems like that is pretty clear some will be saved and others wont? Thanks

[@danielnewman7723]

What is the problem here? Do you have a face to face speaking realtionship with God wherein you know him intimately and personally in the Holy Spirit. Pray and ask God if we/mankind were included in redemption or not. If God is roasting the majority of mankind in hell eternally? Is "penal substitution" correct? Etc. etc. Do more than talk to your pastor, see what so called "Christian Orthodoxy" teaches, what is acceptable to "systematic theology", talk directly to God. Do you have a relationship with "the author and finisher of the faith?

[@gailwilliams8378]

Caleb this may be off subject but how does this scripture fit into that Christ died for ALL and if we don't have to be "saved " who then are these that are going to be thrown into the fire ? Rev 21:6-8 Then he said, “It’s happened. I’m A to Z. I’m the Beginning, I’m the Conclusion. From Water-of-Life Well I give freely to the thirsty. Conquerors inherit all this. I’ll be God to them, they’ll be sons and daughters to me. But for the rest-the feckless and faithless, degenerates and murderers, sex peddlers and sorcerers, idolaters and all liars-for them it’s Lake Fire and Brimstone. Second death!”

[@katynrh1235]

Well I see that their was no response.

[@katynrh1235]

oops, spelling error, sorry.

[@Sdworth224]

While I have loads of respect for Ryan, is anyone else noticing who much of a Pharisee he's being? He seems to be separating us vs. them, not in Christ vs. in Christ, secular vs. spiritual,etc Ryan seems to be preaching a salvation of the will here. Ryan does have some great stuff though!

[@JanBoshoff]

Interesting video, I like that there is at least some conversation happening here. You set up a few straw men yourself. eg. The point you make that those not being subscribing to a particular belief are not qualified to write about its errors makes no sense. Why would only those who believe in something be qualified to write about its errors? Surely if you believe a particular doctrine, you're not going to see the errors in it. That would be stupid, why believe an error?

[@JanBoshoff]

***** Thanks for the clarification, and that's a valid point, although that's not at all what came across in the video.

[@Melasbatson]

***** Thank you for asking this. I found a prob with that as well, and yes, his point came across differently in the video.

[@matthewb252able]

From this video it appears that Caleb piece mealed Ryan's video. Caleb also cherry picked Scriptures to try to back up a philosophical view of the scriptures. From what, to be honest little I have heard from Caleb is not taking the scripture in context. There are a great many leaders that consider universalism or the inclusion gospel hersey or error; definitely more than receive it as truth.

[@MaxAmoeba]

There were a great many religious leaders who thought Christ was a blasphemer and a heretic as well....and then conspired to kill him. Titles nor numbers make a thing true in fact most often it's the other way around.

[@TheHumbuckerboy]

There are so many theological positions and nuances within them that I'm sure that I'm not alone in having difficulty at times in grasping a fully comprehensive understanding of each !

[@kamerasanvura4631]

ryan is short of condemning.

[@geoffs8801]

hi caleb..i used to beleive predestination was an in or out factor...,why,because the church told me,...,in or out of heaven that is,your either predistined to accept the son by Gods choice,or your predestined to reject him by choice of God which leaves a devils hell,that is not the God i want to know,neither should it be preached,,but since God wants that not one should perish,that kills that theory:) .i dont see exclusion with God at all,that is not to say im saying nobody will reject the fathers provision for all fallen humanity which we know is jesus christ the fathers only son,who being born of a virgin fallen woman,also became the son of man,....,i believe that from the very first fall in the garden,,God was and has always been reconciling man back to himself,we have never been held accountable for the fall,how could we be held guilty for adams transgression,since he never had our permission to do as he did...., our heavenly fathers plan to woo us was perfected through his sons work on calvaries tree,and that is pure love,and you can escape that eternal love,and life because of being told we are sinners by uppity christians,who forget how they got saved,and where they were when christ found them,,and it is an offence to any unbeliever to be told they are a sinner in need of a saviour,but paul also sais how will they hear unless a preacher is sent to them,the gospel is supposed to be the,good news,not condemning news,and it must t be preached with love..., an unchurched person doesnt need to be told hes living wrong he knows....,so love him,like God loves us....,jesus became sin once and for all forver,who knew no sin for us,and i am of the beiefi,that the whole world stands reconciled to the father because of his love from the very beginning toward his creation it just hasnt been told the truth neither has the fathers beloved creation mankind been ministered to in love to desire the love of such a father,...God is equated sadly to us in the same way our earthly fathers operated toward us in our lives Gods love is this...which is evident in christ dying for us,from before the foundation of the world,,,i once held to an angry God theology,which is saying if it hadnt been for what my son did for you upon the cross,i would have wiped you out a long time ago,but that cannot be the father at all,because we know the goodness jesus showed to anyone and everyone throughout his short ministry,and also said,if you have seen me,you have seen my father,.father son and holy spirit cannot be divided they are one, pure love always have been,but to get that understanding this late in life is a blessing now,but through religion and the Godfather mentality i was fed years ago,i wish it had never happened,was that Gods will that i should learn that way no way!!,and that same message is still carried over because of religion into the modern day churches.... to this day,there is one reason why this message is widely accepted,when i finished accusing everyone else for bad teaching etc and holding those ministers responsible,i realized that if i had have searched the word out for myself,,prayed and asked God for myself if what i was hearing was true,instead of listening to a minister as having the only gospel truth i wouldn`t have had to go around in circles for eons and eons...,i know this doesnt exactly stay to the message you spoke about on ryan rufus,but it does meet some criteria in there...anyway a whole lot of my freedom has come through listening to good ministers,,thanks for what you had to say it was good............ blessings:)