Caller: "Secular Morality DOES NOT Exist!?" | The Atheist Experience: Throwback

[@Unicorn-Black]

I loved the "if a dog can understand it , i dont understand why you cant" in one sentence thats what religion does to people!

[@elem-sike4161]

That struck hard.

[@justanotheropinion5832]

This guy barely understands how words work. The host has incredible levels of patience.

[@wickedchef]

I don’t need religion as a moral guide anymore than I need a flashlight to find my way around in broad daylight.

[@Villain_Killin_Dylan]

Beautiful

[@jwsanders1214]

You can't find your way to Heaven with a flash light , you need Jesus

[@sproductionsinc]

"I'm a horrible, selfish person." At least he's self aware.

[@freddan6fly]

Barely a little.

[@lorianabanana6066]

It's hilarious how Christains will admit with one breath that they're terrible selfish people with no moral compass- then the next second they're telling us how wrong and evil we are. Usually not even for violence or cruelty but stupid things like adults having consentual sex or the clothes we wear or going to the wrong building on Sunday. Like, I thought you were unable to judge? 😂

[@superbnns]

More like he's probably just regurgitating Christian dogma that you're an unworthy wretch

[@loki2240]

That's usually performative, so a religious fundamentalist can claim that there is no morality without their god or that alleged improvement in their behavior is the result of their god changing them and working in their life (which proves that their god is real).

[@TheSnoeedog]

I think you're mistaking introspection with the phenomenon of the stopped clock (being right twice a day)

[@saicharand7765]

TL;DR : “How can you guys think for yourselves without a sky daddy !?”

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

They are not able to ............

[@heatseeker64735]

I don't see how it's possible for RELIGIOUS morality to exist. That which many theists see as morality is not morality, but obedience. Obeying a god's orders is not morality.

[@thomaskamkar5197]

Agreed. A series of decrees that incur a penalty independent of the action's direct consequences? That's just law and punishment, not morality. I think that's why we get ridiculous biblical decrees, like shellfish and so on, because in ancient times there was no difference between government and religion.

[@jonathanvasquez8598]

This is EXACTLY right. “A God is forcing me under threat of eternal torture to obey these laws, and that is divine morality.” Ridiculous.

[@debschroeder7637]

​@@jonathanvasquez8598I think most people are convinced to obey religious laws because they believe they will be united with loved ones after they die.

[@jwsanders1214]

How is killing Babies moral ? Just because you are in control ?

[@jonathanvasquez8598]

@@jwsanders1214 that is a completely different discussion. We’d have to argue about the morality of the different answers to that question.

[@JanSaevebek]

Dont you just love it when theists have to redefine what words mean in order to back up their beliefs?

[@STOP-n-READ]

The Message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing! If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved!

[@lenstours]

@@STOP-n-READtriple it and pass it on to the next person

[@Praha175]

@@STOP-n-READ hearts dont believe things, they pump blood

[@TheLevantin]

@@STOP-n-READ Stopi, we've already talked about it: You and I know that Jesus is just a simple idolatry for people who like little boys. We know that our God, Smergle, is the all-rounder. Why are you lying in the comments again?

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@STOP-n-READSure,dude,sure. If you say so. Jesus….who do you think will find the same old canards convincing THIS TIME?

[@chefroxstarr9467]

This guy is extremely annoying and condenscending.

[@TeslaGengar]

you can’t be a convinced theist and not be annoying and condescending, you think you know the creator and fate of the universe, as well as have a personal relationship with him, where he cares about your choices in the deli aisle and your sexual preferences.

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

Annoyingly SIMPLE ! ..............

[@theaviationist.5719]

He comes off as very arrogant, ignorant, irritating, shallow thought and fallaciously biased.

[@markoshun]

He came looking for a gotcha.. he didn’t find it.. again.

[@Devious_Dave]

What a clown. He pretends to not understand because he'd rather not expose his empty claims to be, er, empty 🙂

[@collincricket]

Yes, I thought that, definitely pretending to not understand. So bad.

[@lukewojtanowicz1991]

I think I would be very uncomfortable turning my back on this caller. He sounds like the sort you'd want to keep an eye on.

[@Quickblood1]

Yeah whenever a Christian caller comes on to talk about morality and slavery they often say scary stuff.

[@inthewindago]

Some people seem to require religion. To restrain their complete lack of empathy, or compassion for others! So religion is good for one thing, I suppose. But just this one. Lol

[@loki2240]

​@@inthewindago- I doubt that he's as terrible as he claimed early in the call and as his speech suggested throughout the call. A lot of Americans are attracted to right wing Christianity because it allows them to beat themselves up for real or perceived wrong that they've done, while also telling them that they're "true" Christians, "true" Americans and therefore superior to everyone else who doesn't share the same religious, political, and social beliefs. It has especially attracted a lot of drug addicts and former drug abusers, gambling addicts, self-hating people who were promiscuous, self-hating people who engaged in same-sex sex, domestic abusers, etc. Christianity in general allows believers to ask their god (or his "representative ") for forgiveness, without having to make amends or apologize to the people they've wronged. But right wing Christianity makes it a point to tell believers that they're dirty sinners, who are unworthy of their god's salvation, but he's so great that he offers it anyway. So, right wing Christians get to performatively beat themselves up, ask their God for forgiveness, and then not only think that they're good to go without making amends or apologizing to the people they've harmed - they get to think that they're superior to everyone, except for the small group of people who share their religious, political, and social beliefs. Proselytizing and other religious activities can also be addictive to drug addicts. And such religious activities can reinforce their sense of superiority. And a lot of right wing Christian factions are big on proselytizing.

[@Stevo_Drums]

The exact type of person who fully embraces sadomasochism.

[@loki2240]

​@@inthewindago- Don't get me wrong - he may still have been a terrible person. That's especially true since bigotry is such a big part of right wing Christianity. But he was probably okay with any bigotry associated with his religious or political beliefs. And I doubt that he would've just gone around taking people's lives and property, if he didn't believe in his god, as some Christian callers have claimed about themselves. They usually use that to argue against secular morality, misrepresenting their actual personality and the existence of real world consequences for many harmful acts. I don't doubt that some people would do a lot more harmful things, if they could get away with it with no legal or social consequences. But there are typically legal and/or social consequences, whether a person believes in his god or not.

[@CoderOfBugs]

Tell me you lack empathy without telling me...

[@Atreyu-81]

Should we always have empathy in all situations?

[@CoderOfBugs]

@Atreyu-81 No, not necessarily. And since empathy seems like a property that is present in varying degrees, it's not necessarily the best thing to focus on for every situation.

[@vaskovallidis552]

​@@Atreyu-81Empathy means an ability to, at least to some degree, understand other people's states of mind. This is pretty much always useful. However, the caller directly saying that he has absolutely no empathy, no reason to care about others without the threat of eternal torture, is genuinely chilling. Religion has a tendency to erase people's empathy, and replace it with dictates by people claiming to be agents of millions of different gods.

[@69eddieD]

@@CoderOfBugs Don't talk to this monster civilly.

[@raycornejo9883]

Basically this caller is saying he can't think for himself and needs to be told how to think

[@AndrewWilsonStooshie]

He is basically saying that if he discovered tomorrow that a god doesn't exist, he wouldn't known if murder is wrong or not.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

As an atheist I am more committed to making this life valuable and moral than I ever was believing in an imaginary afterlife with an imaginary god.

[@EdithBromfeld]

So what? That just means you are irrational and live inconsistently with atheism. As an atheist, you have no justification for any moral right or wrong in reality or any real human significance in this objectively meaningless, temporary chemical existence awaiting annihilation. Who cares what you claim you are 'committed to?' Not only is there no reason to believe you (Nor free-will) on atheism, you are simply lying to claim you are 'more moral' while denying the only possible foundation for moral truth. You're 'more moral' is meaningless with no objective moral values and duties.

[@Jeremy-xu3yu]

Without an absolute standard of morality then what you consider to be moral will differ from what someone else thinks is moral. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. A lot of the "elite" think depopulation would be a good thing.

[@emoryogglethorp8180]

​@@EdithBromfeldI'm sorry but if you need a threat of an eternal fate literally worse than death in order to treat people decently then you are not a good person LOL

[@jwsanders1214]

Why do you vote to kill babies ? or put boys in girls sports ?

[@jwsanders1214]

what about your eternal soul?

[@inthewindago]

He intentionally refuses to acknowledge his argument is faulty. So instead he feigns the ability to understanding her points, and misrepresents them. Shameful, dishonest, and dare I say immoral behaviour from him.

[@BigRalphSmith]

It's called being intentionally obtuse and yes, it's extremely dishonest.

[@STOP-n-READ]

The Message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing! But NOW God commands you to repent of your sins and turn to Him!

[@BigRalphSmith]

@@STOP-n-READ That oughta do it! Thanks for that, S&R.🙄

[@TheLevantin]

@@STOP-n-READ The one true God, Smergle the all-rounder, does not demand such a thing. Why are you lying in the comments again? What does your mother actually say about you spreading lies about your creator and making you out to be an “angry atheist” who wants to rebel against God? What do you hope to gain by denying your creator?

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@STOP-n-READNo,ur SAYING that god is demanding that. And we’re asking why we should believe that. But apparently all you can do in response is continue preaching and spewing Bible verses,we’ve mostly heard many times

[@RealHooksy]

Luke doesn’t understand because he doesn’t want to understand. He just wants to be right.

[@Justmekpc]

When someone can’t get away from their invisible friend they can’t hear anything else This caller is a prime example

[@STOP-n-READ]

PSALM 19:1-4 !! ROMANS 1:18-22 !!

[@Justmekpc]

@ not into fairytales

[@Justmekpc]

@ now let us pray psalms 137:9 happy is he who seizes your infants and dashes them onto the rocks That’s your loving god

[@theaviationist.5719]

@@STOP-n-READ Quran 4:22 Quran 7:34 Quran 11:56 etc.. Just listing primitive chapters and verses from your chidish so called holy books adds absolutely nothing to an intellectual argument. 👍🤞🤦‍♂️

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@STOP-n-READGo on. Add more !. Yeah, that makes it more believable!!

[@alexissmith5589]

The caller thinks you can't be moral without an invisible sky zombie yet the same sky zombie thinks that slavery and genocide is a-ok. 🤦‍♀

[@MrCanis4]

And drowned everything and everyone because he was angry with himself. 😂😂😂

[@JonathanWetmore-i4s]

My metrics for secular morality is does this action benefit or harm myself or others. That’s how I determine my actions. There is also a lot of grey/neutral areas that religious folk might see in black and white.

[@emoryogglethorp8180]

It's the consequences of the actions that determine whether or not the action is right or wrong, that's literally the whole point of morality in the first place, the results of your actions. It's amazing that there are people that this actually has to be told to LOL

[@EdithBromfeld]

How can ANY action be wrong if there are no objective moral values or duties to be right or wrong about? Just another logical proof of your moral insanity for you to dodge.

[@albaniahenry-franklin2829]

​@@EdithBromfeld *"...there are no objective moral values or duties..."* I want to spread the GOOD NEWS to you! Will your "heart and soul" be eady to embrace the correct Way, the Truth, and the Light after being given the irrefutable incontrovertible PROOF that your "God" is not real?? Let's find out. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@elem-sike4161]

@@EdithBromfeldYou want to assert the we have inherent moral worth. Morals are by definition, what we assess when making evaluations for a given situation. You need to demonstrate we have objective morality. You have a big burden of proof you wish to unload unto us who aren’t making claims. Even if you want to be selfish. Secular morality is superior cause you’d be benefiting those around you by being a good person. Even it’s for your own self interest and wanting to stay in that society.

[@dirtypickle77]

Well you can still do something immoral that has no consequences. Like stealing $100 from a billionaire that'll he or anybody would never find out. It's it moral to give somebody the finger behind their back? Is it moral to fantasize about graping your neighbors daughter? I would say these are all immoral acts that have no consequences.

[@dirtypickle77]

​@@EdithBromfeld we as a society work out morality over time using our intelligence, empathy. We are now more moral then say, the Abrahamic God. We know now that it's immoral to own other people and treat others unfairly because of race, sex or gender. We are still working out morality today on issues such as abortion and LGBT. Over time we will get it right. It's the thiest that has to explain away their gods horrible disgusting morality like a battered housewife.

[@Qzopr1]

How would I conclude that the morality of such a dishonest caller would be beneficial to me or to society at large?

[@elainejohnson6955]

How can my morality come from a character in a book that I consider to be a hideously immoral monster?!?

[@STOP-n-READ]

How can immaterial morality come from a material natural means??

[@theaviationist.5719]

@@STOP-n-READHow can an imaginary fictional being be the foundation for our morality or existence? It makes absolutely zero sense that you religious people still hang on these primitive so called holy books that were written by ancient people that were trying to figure out their existence. So they went into mythical / fictional explanations. They had very limited understanding of how the Universe started or how we evolved. They had no modern science like we have today to explain most of these things. So they used what was available to them back then (Magical thinking) to explain phenomena, 👍

[@MrCanis4]

Yeah, but he has his “mysterious ways” doesn't he? 😂😂😂

[@TheLevantin]

@@STOP-n-READ Where empathy comes from is no secret, all you need is a brain. No god necessary.

[@TheLevantin]

@@theaviationist.5719 Don't bother, Stopi is a known troll who just wants to steal time and has no interest in truth or education.

[@micaelahill8905]

So he doesn't know that walking up and slapping a random stranger is wrong. He has to be told this?

[@jwsanders1214]

What about helping an innocent baby when someone is ripping her from her mothers womb ?

[@micaelahill8905]

@jwsanders1214 really. Ok. You wanna help that, the absolute number one way to help is to end systemic poverty. Sooo we're talking raising the minimum wage, provide single payer healthcare and subsidized childcare and yes that will absolutely do what you want

[@jwsanders1214]

@@micaelahill8905 Even if you made the earth Utopia what good would it do if you lose your soul ? Jesus came to save your soul from Hell and give you eternal life .and Salvation . Trust Jesus and be saved , he cares for you

[@micaelahill8905]

@@jwsanders1214 There is no god, there is no hell. It's clear all you want to do is feel self righteous and control other people, kinda sad

[@janusgeminus21]

That was a really informative clip.

[@peanutt82004]

And they call us robots. This guy literally has to be told what to do

[@jwsanders1214]

God didn't make any robots . You have free choice . You are free to reject God and his free gift of Salvation

[@TheLevantin]

@@jwsanders1214 A person does exactly what God wants that person to do. in a world with an omniscient God, “free will” is impossible. It's obvious that you've never thought about the nonsense you believe. I have the suspicion that you couldn't care less about truth or education, could it be?

[@hannibalbarca1147]

​@@jwsanders1214 Cute answer, but it's not convincing. Can you answer how premature deaths correspond to free choice?

[@jwsanders1214]

@@hannibalbarca1147 there is a time to be born and a time to die

[@elem-sike4161]

How does this guy function? I feel like buying a coffee is a moral and philosophical dilemma for him.

[@superbnns]

He sounds like he can't operate without some sort of command from on high, and he can't fathom that millions of people around him do that every single day. Poor guy.

[@LOwens-xf8yo]

Religion has destroyed the caller’s ability to identify his own inner sense of morality he was born with, that we are all born with. He has abandoned his own morality for a list of dogmatic rules.

[@brucewilliams4152]

Fairness and well-being!

[@iitywybmad29]

moral arguement - The Code of Ur-Nammu is the oldest known law code surviving today. It is from Mesopotamia and is written on tablets, in the Sumerian language c. 2100-2050 BCE. Wikipedia The Code of Hammurabi is a Babylonian legal text composed during 1755-1750 BCE. It is the longest, best-organized, and best-preserved legal text from the ancient Near East. It is written in the Old Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, purportedly by Hammurabi, sixth king of the First Dynasty of Babylon. Wikipedia So, where are the ten commandments and the ark of the covenant? The best that you can do is to say that they were written about in a 4th century BCE book with a talking serpent and a talking donkey.

[@canderson5098]

I apologize that I have to share space alongside you while not believing in the same things as you do. I'll continue to not steal from you or harm you in any way as I've been doing. I hope that's good enough. I'm not sure what more you want.

[@STOP-n-READ]

God so loved you that He gave His only begotten Son that if you believe in Him you will not perish, but have everlasting life

[@jwsanders1214]

@@STOP-n-READ Yes , God did not send his son to condemn the world , but that through him the world might be saved

[@SalK-LS]

I really love Tracy's approach! I miss her on the show...

[@gsevere2073]

This is a great example of why we believe religion is a danger to one and all.

[@loneprimate]

I can't believe it takes 5 minutes to explain the concept and prevalence of "fairness" to a Christian... All because he needs it to be the special gift of his God. How UNFAIR is that?

[@ColinHarris-g6g]

Morality pre-dates religion it stems from alturism which can be found in all higher order species. Like everything else it evolves.

[@ChristianIce]

I'd go a step further and say that subjective morality is the only morality that exists. Even those silly things written in the Bible, guess what, are the ideas of the dude who wrote it down.

[@dantheman2907]

If the inability to think for oneself was a person, it'd be this guy.

[@skarpheinnsmundsson9741]

And that is how you demolish someones bad argument.

[@nagranoth_]

it's the only morality that can exist. Doing what you think a god wants is just following orders. That's not morality. Morality is acting according to what you think is right, not just mindlessly doing what someone else says (or you imagine.)

[@Beacon80]

I'm still waiting for a theist to explain how they can determine if an action is objectively moral or not, when they have to rely on their subjective interpretation of their god, religious writings, etc.

[@STOP-n-READ]

I'm still waiting for a atheist to explain how they can determine if an action is objectively moral or not without God, when they have to rely on their subjective, flawed interpretation of God's nonexistence, lack of research, and lack of logical reasoning, etc

[@Atreyu-81]

The objective morality is built into the ontology of the human being. That's why we don't say it's mentally ill for a dog to lick poo or that it's a crime for a male bear to kill cubs that aren't their own.

[@mrhuman4049]

@@STOP-n-READ cope. morality is subjective. ur god is bs.

[@Atreyu-81]

​@@mrhuman4049 morality is both objective and subjective. It's objective in the human being as opposed to the lower animals

[@amtlpaul]

More incoherence from ​@@Atreyu-81desperately swerving to avoid the hard questions, like, "If God says x is morally good, does that make it morally good?"

[@stephanholmes5522]

He has to be a legit sociopath to not understand moral behavior.

[@koshiknaidoo833]

"Wait what?!" I am always impressed with the elegance of Tracey's arguments ❤

[@sfprivateer]

Scary thing is : We don't allow dogs to vote, yet dogs are more qualified to vote than Luke.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

To me it is very immoral for anyone to force someone else into this extremely unfair and cruel existence.

[@jwsanders1214]

You have free choice . You can reject Jesus free offer of Salvation and therefore align yourself with Satan and keep company with him for eternity

[@PJM273]

I imagine this is what it's like to talk to my puppy if it could speak.

[@Haroldbeavis1969]

Luke didn’t want to listen to anything other than the noise inside his own head.

[@amiralhijaz5850]

What a complete pillock, can't get out of script

[@MrCanis4]

“We need god for Morality”. Which god? Because 95% of Humanity has never heard of YOUR god.

[@jwsanders1214]

Sorry , but I will have to correct you . There are over 2 . 3 Billion believers in in Jesus in the world today and The Bible is still the best selling book in the world . Bible sales are up 30 % in the US this year

[@_Somsnosa_]

​@@jwsanders1214Humanity meaning all humans that have ever existed. Abrahamic religions are only 2000-3000 years old Islam and Hinduism are very very popular too but it doesn't make them any truer than Christianity or anything else. That's a logical fallacy

[@_Somsnosa_]

​@@jwsanders1214Yet those jesus believers can't seem to agree or get along? Didn't jesus say that a house divided against itself cannot stand? Yet there are still hundreds of sects of Christianity, you're a disappointment to jesus

[@MrCanis4]

@ Really? First your 2, 3 trillion is a huge exaggeration. And two: How far was your book spread, say 400 years ago? I'm talking about "Humanity". That's the +/- 200 thousand years that we've been walking around here. Billions of people who NEVER have/could have heard of that storybook. Three: numbers don't say anything about whether something is true. In earlier times the vast majority of that "Humanity" thought the earth was flat. That didn't make it true either, right? Take a look at some books on history and geography.

[@faelheavymetal]

@@jwsanders1214 I'd bet money that most of those people don't believe the same god as you, even if you all agree that you do. You just have to ask someone to define the god in question to verify that.

[@Abyzz_Knight]

Dude just cannot comprehend that people can have a concept of right and wrong without some outside force telling him exactly how to act.

[@tekbarrier]

It's like he can't even understand the concept of a moral system that isn't just following a list of rules because you're told to, without question. The moral argument for God is easily one of the worst out there.

[@MrBozoOzo]

How can this be so hard to understand? One must wonder if the discussion will ever progress to a point that is of value to both sides of theism? If dogs can understand this, why can't you 😂 brilliant! Love it!

[@gilbertalvarado5101]

Life doesn’t come with instructions but he keeps asking for the handbook.

[@amontrealpaul226]

Both Damon and his sidekick have just acknowledged that no God is required to make certain actions wrong, thus repudiating the Moral Argument for God. They did it amidst a lot of hissing, snorting and finger pointing, but they did it!

[@STOP-n-READ]

Amontrealpaul needs to acknowledge that God has required him to take certain actions by repenting and turning to Him, thus validating the Moral Argument for God. Amontrealpaul didn't do it yet amidst of a lot of hissing, snorting, and finger pointing, but hopefully he'll get over it!

[@amontrealpaul226]

@STOP-n-READ Spam egg sausage and spam

[@amontrealpaul226]

@STOP-n-READ So, if God permitted torture it would be morally good?

[@Atreyu-81]

We didn't acknowledge anything. You asked a loaded question and rode my leg to answer with a yes or no. I told Pauliar that I understood answering the question would mean Pauliar was right about subjective morality, either way, and I said if that was the case then yes, Pauliar would be right and morality could only be subjective. Then Pauliar crapped on the chessboard, strutted around on it and created the OP above. But your loaded question simply ignores the theological concept of cosmic dualism.

[@damonkenny3444]

Why must Theists disprove your preferred chomo beliefs.

[@carl5438]

I'm back after two years and still there are people trying to convince us that their invisible friend exists and will punish you with hell or death if you don't believe.

[@alamunez]

The clip is from over six years ago 😅

[@asyetundetermined]

They struggle with individuality. It terrifies them. The freedom of a secular existence baffles the theist. They run to the crowd for safety.

[@spinav8r]

The caller (Luke) is a liar. He deliberately denies things that he knows are true because he's desperately trying to avoid admitting that he's wrong. Eff that guy.

[@chrischandler889]

NOTHING MAKES SENSE WITHOUT MY MAGICAL ARBITER!!!!!!

[@jwsanders1214]

Do you know that Jesus offers you salvation for your eternal soul ?

[@chrischandler889]

@@jwsanders1214 First, what does that even mean? Second how do you know that? An old book says it? So what? How did you verify it?

[@jwsanders1214]

@@chrischandler889 Yes the Bible is an old Book , thousands of years old . The Bible is not really not one book , but a collection of 66 books written by 40 different authors over a period of hundreds of years , and despite what you have been told it is essentially the same as the authors wrote it . I have been a student of Gods word for about 50 years and have come to understand that the authors of the New Testament writings are telling us the truth about who Jesus is , that he is the invisible God who became incarnate , he became like one of us, but without sin .The Messiah , the son of God who came into the world to redeem us with his own blood . He took our sins upon himself , the sins of everyone who ever lived and forgave us all and offers eternal life " Jesus said to her , " I am the Resurrection and the Life . Anyone who believes in me and dies will live , and anyone who believes in me and lives will never die , do you believe this ?" and Martha answered " Yes Lord I believe you are the Messiah , The Son of God who has come into the world " John 11:25 I believe what the writer of The Gospel of John tells me , that I have eternal Life and forgiveness through Jesus , and I believe that God loves you and wants you to come to faith in Jesus and have eternal life These are the words of Jesus " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son , that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life . For god did not send his son to condemn the world but that through him the world might be saved ." John 3:16-17

[@chrischandler889]

@@jwsanders1214 cool. You believe these wild supernatural claims with zero evidence. You need to learn how to evaluate evidence. What mechanism did you use to verify any of these things?

[@jwsanders1214]

@@chrischandler889 I will gladly answer your Question but first I need to find out a little about your beliefs . Why do you believe that you are just a soulless piece if meat with no purpose , hope or future except a grave ?

[@AndyCampbellMusic]

Steps to morality an inevitable consequence of evolution. Step 1. A primitively aware cell develops. It prefers moving towards a light source or away from it. Away = good towards = bad. (Primitive version of right/wrong) Step 2 . Understanding evolves. Step 3 . Empathy evolves from awareness and understanding. (Without these, morality and ethics cannot exist). This can be seen in virtually every species on earth, from very simple to highly complex. That's the root and source of the concept of morality. Non-life is the source and root of what we call life. Life cannot exist without it.

[@LunaBoo12]

I think the reason Luke was not understanding her point is because he literally thinks morality is just about following the rules you are given from an external source (in his case, god). She was explaining that most people have some innate sense of right/wrong, but he was taking that to mean that we researched it in nature, so that means it's the rule. This, I suspect, is because he has no innate sense of right and wrong. Which is disturbing.

[@timweaver4551]

The disconnect is pretty simple to understand. He believes morality must come from an authority and take the form of rules. The idea that you can have morality without a central authority figure does not compute for him. The question he is asking without actually asking it is, if God isn't your lawgiver, then who is? The funny thing is, he is probably not even aware that that is what he is asking.

[@TonyCox1351]

This guy is definitely playing dumb because he knows if he legitimately answered the question, it would hurt his narrative

[@russbroda7207]

This guy doesn’t need higher education to learn what is is because he knows it’s all about preference of what is and he believes that is what being informed is all about .

[@creativepseudonym9872]

Luke is so dishonest and obtuse. It's exhausting. He's speaks with the energy of someone who was never told that he's wrong about anything.

[@canderson5098]

If believers can't be convinced that i can't be a good or moral person without believing in the same god as they do, then do they trust me to live and work and shop next to them? Would they prefer i go somewhere else and if so, where? I'm open to suggestions.

[@STOP-n-READ]

There is one God and one Mediator between God and man- the Man, Christ Jesus He that has the Son has life He that has not the Son shall not see life, but God‘s wrath abides on him

[@NOTB666-p7v]

@@STOP-n-READ that’s not answering his question

[@anticarrrot]

Trying to explain chess to a person who insists the only game that exists is tic tac toe.

[@Folkstone1957]

This caller has an approach that involves a classic line from Shakespeare: “Done like a Frenchman, turn & turn again.”

[@Alltime2050]

Right and wrong are so freaking difficult for those people to understand.

[@kurtjohnson4816]

The problem theists have in these discussions is that even the simplest challenge to their thinking process requires them to obfuscate, to ignore that challenge, to change the subject, and to otherwise stubbornly refuse to participate in a fruitful, logical exchange. Because their bag is bereft of the tools required to do so. You could give this guy a thousand examples of how ethics, empathy and morals exist outside of his god; but he will steadfastly use any dodge possible in order to avoid it.

[@Blackdiamond929_]

I’ve yet to listen to caller who just answer the question straight on, the either have to repeat it , divert or , purposefully misunderstand it or just act dumb

[@jwsanders1214]

You must be a democrat

[@seljo]

Just to add to the "not all atheists think the same" mantra, fairness doesn't exist, imo. I prefer the principles of reducing harm and maximizing well-being as the foundations of morality.

[@Peteralleyman]

Imagine encountering Luke the moment he lost his god. Make sure you have your bearspray at hand.

[@gav9385]

He starts every single sentence by saying "but, but, but...." and his whole point is he needs a book that tells him what sort of morality he should follow and why = a total psycho.

[@Anime2077yt]

This guy has mass pew pew vibes

[@samanthasoares4806]

Treat others how you want to be treated is basically all you need for secular morality... A psychopath could rationalize god making them that way for some grand purpose, to be able to kill people without feeling because they're sinners or something like that, meanwhile that same psychopath without religion using the "golden rule" would maybe want to murder someone, but knowing that they wouldn't want to be killed themselves is (hopefully) enough to dissuade them. I always make the argument of if I heard a voice that said "Im god murder a baby" Id get myself checked out, but a religious person might murder a baby.

[@Disturbed0neGaming]

This kid doesn't have an argument without being told what it is from an old book or a priest/pastor and that's fucking scary... We all know what happens when you "just follow orders". 🤨

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

No one needs to be forgiven for anything because it's not anybody's fault that they exist and happen to be whatever way that they happen to be. No matter if we were created by nature or by a god or gods or by aliens, the way that they created us in every single way is not our fault. The only way the way people are would be their fault is if they willingly chose to come into existence and if they created themselves and made themselves be exactly the way that they want to be, but that's not possible. And no one can righteously be forced to be at fault for being a way that isn't their fault.

[@alexisdalmeida2147]

These people have jobs? Coworkers? Family? Friends? How do people like this function day to day? Is he on an FBI watchlist?

[@astaroththedaeva9717]

Gods, I swear intelligence was a curse to us. We care more about the WHY rather than the HOW. Even if there is now WHY.

[@Stevo_Drums]

Caller: “I’m a horrible, selfish person…” and God should damn me to hell for eternity!

[@STOP-n-READ]

He that has the Son has life He that has not the Son shall not see life but God's wrath abides on him

[@amontrealpaul226]

​@@STOP-n-READspam egg sausage and spam

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

Some theists take stupidity to unheard of heights.

[@oxidize11]

"Show me your god." *crickets* it's how they all go. They can't so they play games and try to break the otherside to "prove" they're right in some bizarro world.

[@rogerbee697]

“Show me your god…” 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@lazloholt262]

Ok, but the response here is the same as pascal's wager: even if you were to somehow demonstrate that secular morality doesn't exist, there are many other religions that have their own moral codes distinct from those laid out in the bible. How do you know you've chosen the correct god with the correct moral code?

[@A-WallfromAL]

He’s starting from the premise that without a god-belief, a person not only has no moral frame of reference but is essentially a sociopath without some god-being restraining him. Gross and warped way to view humanity, but ya know, I used to think this way, too.

[@BornAnAtheist666]

That guy is dangerous if needs a book to tell him the difference between right and wrong. Hope he never loses the book even though it is not very moral at least we are a little safer from him and his type.

[@Gwaithmir]

His book tells him that slavery is okay. So much for God's alleged revealed word.

[@STOP-n-READ]

Unless you are BORN AGAIN you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven! Now God commands you to repent of your sins and turn to Him! If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved!

[@Atreyu-81]

​@@GwaithmirYour clothes probably come from Chinese sweat shops. 😂

[@amtlpaul]

​@Atreyu-81 "sweatshops exist, therefore slavery is okay"

[@amtlpaul]

​@@Atreyu-81Are sweatshops morally good according to God?

[@johnosborne3187]

Luke. If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.

[@Chronodesic]

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that social species worl in groups because they are social instead of the other way around. Lets say we have a distant ancestral species that were individualistic and asocial (probably not the correct use). In those populations thrpugh generations there were individuals who had a slightly more positive predisposition toward other individuals that resulted in grouping. It wasn't the pther way around where there were random grouping which somehow resulted in social behaviour. Hope that makes sense.

[@oxidize11]

I'm convinced theists refuse to acknowledge reality.

[@johngriffiths2637]

It seems like by his definition, religious morality doesnt exist either.

[@amtlpaul]

The moral argument is one I seem to have accepted some version of for years without really thinking about it, even though I knew of the problems posed by Euthephro. But it really is remarkably weak when you think about it. We humans think in moral terms because we find it useful. Yes, people find other ways of thinking useful too. That's why humans don't always act morally. But moral ideas aren't just arbitary dictates from a deity.

[@Atreyu-81]

What supreme authority dictates morality then? In some countries and states it is legal to have sex with animals. They may argue implied consent and training. Where's your supreme moral authority there?

[@amtlpaul]

@Atreyu-81 Making it up to the whims of an authority makes morality completely arbitary. If said authority said bestiality was a virtue, would that make it so?

[@Atreyu-81]

@@amtlpaul If their law said you had no supreme authority to say otherwise then what could you argue in the ontology of man and beast? Your chemicals versus theirs? I would point to a very obvious factor that the objective morality is designed within man to logically know that it is wrong.

[@amtlpaul]

​@@Atreyu-81You did not answer my question. If a 'Supreme Authority' declared that bestiality was morally good, would that make it so?

[@Atreyu-81]

​@@amtlpaulSatan is some peoples supreme authority and he has declared that sin is the law. Therefore the ruler makes the rules as he wishes and he's subject to change whenever he sees fit. God says he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So it just wouldn't be my God. What if evil was called good and good was called evil? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@stephenbesley3177]

The whole question of morality is so subjective I don't see where any god can be so important.

[@asyetundetermined]

To take the thinking off of a terminally mediocre person’s plate.

[@Praha175]

the guy cant understand the difference between the concept of fairness existing and the decisions about what is considered fair

[@AbsurdlyGeeky]

What an insufferably dishonest interlocutor.

[@burninggiraffe6615]

They entertained this hat full of idiocy for way longer than they needed to

[@madym12]

I hope he never stops believing in god tbh... he sounds scary.

[@tomohmer4998]

Outstanding response. Luke seems like a troll, but likely can’t deconstruct.

[@Godless_Doc]

Luke is the poster child for willful ignorance.

[@carl5438]

Behavior is either accepted by the group or not accepted and enforced by the group or people with the power to exact punishment. Before any Gods were created by men, humans like most all animals regulated acceptable behavior.

[@Yumlick]

I define X as XY. Prove that XY can exist without Y.

[@VetsrisAuguste]

This guy is confusing morality with obedience. Morality in his view seems to be the state of being in compliance with the rules, as opposed to immorality which is in non-compliance. This would explain why a god is necessary to him; to set the rules. Without rules there can be neither compliance nor non-compliance; therefore no secular morality. He’s wrong.