Cameron Bertuzzi & James White Discuss Catholicism

[@zekdom]

Time-stamps 23:18, 24:02, 25:20 - what is the papacy? Does the papacy necessarily entail Catholicism? 28:43, 29:30, 30:30 - Vatican l 26:07 - debating liberal Catholics 31:07 - Matthew 18 31:36 - Vatican 1 39:30 - who disagrees, according to White? 41:30, 41:45 - Irenaeus and Victor, infallibility 45:03 - Babylonian captivity and two popes 46:40 - Council of Constance 47:30 - Council of Nicaea 48:38, 49:00 - canon 6 49:32, 49:44 - Rome’s representatives 47:58, 48:08 - did the bishop of Rome give up on the deity of Christ?

[@choosejesus1910]

Thanks!😊

[@RedWolf5]

Protestants pretend they don’t have Popes… we all do.

[@RedWolf5]

@ktownbball ktownbball yes you do, here you have a very important quote from your first pope. "It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a CATHOLIC" - Martin Luther

[@RedWolf5]

@ktownbball ktownbball No he’s in fact your first Pope, now you probably have a new one in the likes of James White, trust me I know is confusing for you guys. But not only that, Luther is THE archetype of the cult of men and his quotes are very well documented and researched; in fact that quote his very own quote… He was in fact a VERY interesting man, here you have some more interesting quotes from him. “[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” ~Martin Luther~ “Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” ~Martin Luther~ “The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” ~Martin Luther~ “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.” ~Martin Luther~ Again, from Luther’s deathbed as he seek reconciliation. "It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a CATHOLIC" - Martin Luther

[@RedWolf5]

@ktownbball ktownbball You obviously don’t know much about Luther! You might not like some of his quotes because they challenge your belief system but that doesn’t change the fact that he said them. Do you also agree with things like this I might ask? Or are the following quotes also “fake”? “Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107. - What a great blasphemy from a man who is regarded as “great reformer”!). 1. “I look upon God no better than a scoundrel” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963). 4. “It does not matter how Christ behaved - what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126). 1. “Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” (ref. ‘Let Your Sins Be Strong, from ‘The Wittenberg Project;’ ‘The Wartburg Segment’, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404)) 1. “Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294). “To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” - “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294 3. “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (ref. De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will). 2. “Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (ref. J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248). “If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (ref. Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413). “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502). How many of these quotes do you also agree with? These are just a few, I can share more if you like; in the end is just like I said before even the most wicked can see the truth before they die…. On his way to hell Luther said: “reformation was a mistake” -Luther

[@shad_fz]

Cameron, as a Latina Catholic follower of yours, even if you convert or not, your humility is admirable. Praise God for giving you such graces. I’ll pray our Lord He guides you where He wants you.

[@andys3035]

What does being Latina have anything to do with your faith?

[@davidresendiz7989]

don't convert, follow Jesus

[@joeterp5615]

Nice comment. Cameron is a very humble guy. I’ll pray for him too, as well as for James White,

[@shad_fz]

@@andys3035 I wanted to let Cameron know that people outside the US follow him. God bless you

[@M1and5M]

@@davidresendiz7989 by converting he follows Jesus in Jesus' own church!

[@garymanz3403]

I’m Catholic & White is correct- to be a faithful Catholic, you have to accept all that church elevates to the level of dogma.

[@kylemek0]

Yes it is true as Catholics we have to accept the dogmas of the Church. And if White just said as a Catholic you will have to accept the Church's dogmas then Cameron probably would have just said yes I know. but white makes it sound like once your Catholic everything is spelled out for you, as if there's no room for us to think anything through for ourselves. If this was the case I guess all of our theologians would be out of a job.

[@noahfletcher3019]

@@kylemek0 I mean, why pretend? You have room to think but you have way less room to think. The bodily assumption of mary is very hard to believe. It's very close to being told that 2 + 2 is 5. When you're being told that, yeah sure you have room to think but you still have to come round and think yourself into believing it. So you're being a bit misleading when you say theirs room to think. Under protestantism, yes you still have dogmas to believe but there are less of them and less pressure to believe exact semantic definitions of things so yeah there's more wiggle room to think freely though not entirely.

[@mathildamiller8424]

Jesus Christ accepts everything during His death. He is God and could have chosen how He would die.

[@ManlyServant]

​@@kylemek0copium

[@okami425]

​@ManlyServant that's not copium. We're allowed to have our own interpretations as long as we don't contradict official church teaching and interpretations.

[@TheAreteWay]

James has the difficulty of having logic on his side yet persuasion evades him because of his approach. He makes others feel small without even realizing it. He names some obscure work and asks if the other person has ever read it and considers their problem one of ignorance. I appreciate James' ministry and see much to commend it. That said, for someone with his intellectual background and rhetorical sophistication, I am continually grieved with his utter lack of awareness for how he comes across. I am not convinced at all of the Catholic argument for the papacy (and hence many other things), but I hope I am always gracious and humble in my discussions with Catholics.

[@introvertedchristian5219]

Bart Ehrman did that to James White during their debate, too. He kept asking James if he was familiar with the work of various textual critics, and James didn't know any of them.

[@ruben346]

Well said and me too

[@retrograd332]

I have a lot of appreciation for Dr White and his knowledge, but this comment is right on the mark. I agree with everything Dr White said in this conversation, but he needs to show down a bit and even more importantly, let his guest speak once and awhile. Cameron you acted with great humility despite not being able to speak much and on several occasions not finish his thought. That is a very respectable trait. I do believe Dr White acted the way he did because he is truly worried about your eternal destination and not because he wanted to show how much facts he knows. That said, he could definitely learn some humility and you were a great example.

[@RGTomoenage11]

@@retrograd332 come home my brothers

[@adamheida8549]

Agreed. He definitely could use some more humility. That being said, Martin Chemnitz and John Jewel are very basic Protestant-era refutations of Roman Catholicism, and John Calvin's exchange with Sadoleto is what I would consider an entry level work when studying Protestantism vs Romanism. I think White acted pridefully, but I don't think he was wrong to be shocked that Cameron hasn't engaged with this material. He just could have handled himself better. Cameron hasn't engaged with basic historical writings for the Protestant position, it shows in his videos, and I'm glad White called him out on it.

[@calebsmith1899]

Perfect example of how to win an argument but lose the person. Cameron, you on the other hand showed great humility. God gives grace to the humble.

[@petars4444]

He didnt even win an argument, to think that you must not known history and Bible. Soon, Trent Horn and Reason and theology crew will rebute White for 1000time.

[@calebsmith1899]

@@petars4444 I withdraw the part about winning, I just meant, even if you know more about a subject or at least have read more on the subject then this is clearly not how to have a disagreement. I was trying to give Cameron a compliment.

[@merseabless8305]

White is quite arrogant and I’m a fan of Matt Fradd so he kind of lost me after that comment. Cameron is a gentle sweet young man and continued prayers for his spiritual wisdom.

[@brockgeorge777]

True. But humility also (ultimately at least) cannot ignore the ACTUAL facts or history or MANIFEST teachings of Scriptures. To be a UNDERSTANDING Catholic I contend you must ultimately do exactly that. What Cameron is missing is that his probabilistic arguments-even where clearly sound and almost certainly correct, are IRRELEVANT to Rome’s self-proclaimed all knowing (on dogmatic issues) magisterium.

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 in Lumen Gentium Para 16, teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)

[@MikeShining]

Dr White can sometimes be hard to listen to because of his attitude. But you have to recognize that he's a intelligent teacher. I really appreciated Cameron's humility throughout this conversation.

[@MikeShining]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I agree. I think Cam got some more food for thought in his journey.

[@onlylove556]

There nothing intelligent about James white at all. That poor soul follow calvinism evil religion but has the nerve to say Catholics r evil🤔 when he believes God predestined mothers to be raped

[@cfG21]

You should have seen the video where his sister conveted to catholicism..his facial annoyance was spongebob levels of expression lol

[@josuekax]

"I'm saying no to a lot of stuff" Cameron's humility is unique, keep seeking the truth, God bless you.

[@amauryft]

I would say his HONESTY is unique. Fpr his humility to be unique in this case would require IMHO, after acknowledging not only not knowing but not even being aware of so many seemingly important documents and issues , to simply yield and saying "yes, you know what, I really don't know what I am talking about and I should know way more before I make such decisions and make them in a broadcasted way. I really have not looked into these in a balanced and through manner, my apologies to my viewers, I will try to do that now". He would probably say that IN PUBLIC, on YT" That would be unique. This is the issue of the relationship between YT channels and true seeking, the lines get really mixed up, I mean reeeaaally mixed up at what point I am going from making content and generating views to actual seeking? It is a lines that gets blurry inside the heart. But instead of that clear acknowledgment Cam tries to validate his methods and way to process it all. i understand everybody here is his YT subs ( I am one too) and this will be unpopular, I also understand JW at times, like this time, is not a particularly likable personality. I also don't like how attached to his own history he is, I believe it is important for any man to let go of his deeds of the past. But that does not mean that his appeal to "MORE DEPTH PLEASE" is wrong. I see comments about how "old" JW and his arguments are... well... THAT is the point folks. Innovation in christianity tends to be a particularly not good thing. The race for the pearl in the field is not an episode of Shark Tank where the new, more popular and that makes more money and views wins. It is seeking for truth which is only ONE truth. Regardless, yes, may God bless Cam in his walk, not because he is specially good, but because he, like all, need to grow in the knowledge of Jesus and be blessed by Him.

[@josuekax]

@@amauryft what an interesting comment, God bless you too

[@jerryyoung6494]

Unfortunately his ignorance is not unique. I’m surprised he posted this

[@nakuma33]

@@jerryyoung6494 he is just searching and learning, he's not claiming to know everything and I highly doubt your super educated on every topic. Cut him some slack

[@albertomartinez714]

He was using a bit of levity because it was quite obvious to anyone watching that he was out of his element. It was a defense mechanism and neither humble nor unique.

[@aadamy]

I followed James White a little as a Calvinist. I joined the Catholic Church this Easter after almost 5 years in RCIA and reading and debating etc. I feel amazing

[@glennlanham6309]

you got that right

[@theknight8524]

Watch Gavin ortlund (truth unites)

[@mathildamiller8424]

Welcome home to Rome. His net worth is $13 million so he does not care to convert. There is no money to be made in the Catholic Church so why not just bring out the past dirty laundry of the CC and support/promote division instead of unification John 17.

[@Rob-mr1vk]

@@theknight8524 Protest/tants doesn't unite at all. That is a fact!

[@jhabernathy690]

Feel amazing, even headed for hell?

[@mr.fordnite1909]

James raises some very valid points. However, he needs to really, radically have his heart softened and his ego reduced. His face constantly exudes arrogance and annoyance, and consequently it is very, VERY hard to listen to him.

[@mjramirez6008]

Catholic here, I like Dr. White a lot, he's knowledgable, eloquent and a good agressive debater. Here he seems to know Cameron is on his way of joining the CC so I guess for Dr. W it's like a lost case, hence his annoyed and sort of condescending attitude. Content is important but form is as well, the way guys like Hann, Horn, Frad, etc. interact is very charitable and empathetic, almost devoided of that air of superiority not rare to find among reformed apologists, and that alone can go a loooong way.

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

This seems to be the chief criticism White gets: He knows what he's talking about, but he sounds mean, therefore, he's arrogant. There's seriously something wrong with peoples perception of "humility" being attached to some soft tone and epistemological uncertainty.

[@lpadron13]

The word everyone's grasping for is "charitable". Cameron's not lacking for it. White sometimes comes across as having scratched the word out in his dictionary. It's off putting.

[@mr.fordnite1909]

@@Cinnamonbuns13 it’s not just that he “sounds mean”, he constantly looks at people like they are stupid and have a horn growing out of their head.

[@AbetTorontoAdventure]

@@mr.fordnite1909 That's what I thought too.

[@amandapflanz1041]

Keep digging, you’ll get there I promise. I converted to Catholicism 9 years ago. I have been many different denominations in my life. I am Catholic because of the Eucharist. I love Jesus and He led me to His Church. I love your humility and this James guy needs some. I truly feel sad for him. He doesn’t know what he’s missing 🙏🏻❤️

[@flippintobyland7257]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaepiGOrhq1-j5o

[@amandapflanz1041]

Research what the early church taught. Read John 6. I’m not here to convince, rather inform. The Holy Spirit can do that 🙏🏻❤️

[@fabiotuan5206]

@@amandapflanz1041 All believers have His presence already in and thru the HOLY SPIRIT, get it! God bless and hope this helps!

[@flippintobyland7257]

@@amandapflanz1041 kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaepiGOrhq1-j5o

[@flippintobyland7257]

@@amandapflanz1041 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6LHgmmVgqZ7aKM

[@Reversemortgageacademy]

Cameron, i can’t tell you how much I was impressed by your humility. He talked over you, dominated the mic, asked leading questions, and was never interested in hearing from you, and yet you remained calm and humble. Regardless of where your journey takes you, your Heavenly Father is proud. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the whole earth.”

[@Charlie5225]

“Regardless of where your journey takes you?” What if one’s journey leads to spiritual destruction? Doctrine matters.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I barely know either. I'm impressed by White's knowledge, but not by his arrogance. It was like he put Cameron through a humiliation ritual, of all that he didn't know and all he should have read, for what seemed like an excruciatingly long time.

[@stevrgrs]

Yeah White and Durbin are both quite full of themselves. I do not see gentleness in either of them. They definitely need to read over 1 Timothy 3 and Galatians 6 :P

[@davidperman7517]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I'm a fan of Dr. White, but I would agree that Cameron should have had the opportunity to say more. I think Dr. white is just so used to debates that it makes him overzealous in conversations.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@stevrgrs It's definitely a streak I see in Calvinists. They aren't gentle or timid and a loving spirit is often absent.

[@GringoXavier]

I came back home to Catholicism from evangelicalism 3 years ago. A big part of my journey home was listening to Protestant apologists like dr white. He’s probably convinced Cameron that Catholicism is true more than dr Hahn ever could. Viva Cristo Rey. St Joseph. Pray for us.

[@SojournerDidimus]

Can you explain how White's arguments can be used in favor of Roman Catholicism?

[@miranda54084]

Viva Cristo Rey y Santa Maria siempre virgen

[@GringoXavier]

@@SojournerDidimus I’m sorry. I shouldn’t be trying to speak for Cameron. But personally I found dr white to be so disingenuous in his approach to these discussions. As a matter of fact I found them all to be lacking. If they held Protestantism to the same standard as they hold the Catholic Church then they’d see the glaring holes in their position.

[@mohaubereng9315]

I heard him, for instance, claim that papal infallibility asserts that The Pope is infallible in all his teachings. Either Cameron already knows that and is not opposing because he really just wants to listen, or he's going to research that and find that the guy who has debated Catholics on infallibility for decades, gets infallibility wrong, which can only mean he's being intentionally dishonest.

[@Stygard]

I converted to Catholicism 4 years ago. I am a former protestant Baptist minister with my M.Div from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. 4-5 years ago I listened to every catholic -protestant debate on KZbin, most had James white as the protestant rep. And I felt the same way. James White's best arguments fell short and I converted.

[@behling89]

I'm from Brazil, but I've lived in the US for a while. I was a protestant (Lutheran) and I became a Catholic in the US after having a type of mystical experience going to my very first mass. I did not believe any of the Catholic teachings, nevertheless I walked out of the church a Catholic that day. I knew I was home, which is very hard to explain. Months later, at the time of my first communion and confirmation I believed probably 90% of Catholic teachings, but I was a Catholic and I still knew I was home. Now, two years and a half later, I'm at 100%. I am a Catholic. I am home.

[@gideondavid30]

Nothing wrong with "mystical experiences" just so long as you have the theology to back it up. I do believe miracles, dreams, visions, etc help in our faith journey. However, they are not a substitute from a diligent study of the Word of God.

[@miracles_metanoia]

Welcome home !

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Mystical experiences don’t excuse sadly mislead theology.

[@peaceandjoy2568]

Welcome home. Sometimes we forget that the masses of ordinary people for centuries in the history of Christianity from the time of Jesus to the middle ages did not have the luxury of studying at university nor learning to read. It was through the shepherding of the Catholic Church and through her Sacraments that people were baptized, knew and believed in Jesus, grew in their relationship with Him and were fed and strengthened in their faith. So being an expert on Church history, theology and the papal and council documents are not requirements in order to know the basic dogmas of the Christian Faith necessary for belief and salvation. What is needed is Jesus and He gave us the Church, the Bible, and the Tradition of the Catholic Faith.

[@BrewMeister27]

@@gideondavid30 it's also important to remember that Christianity isn't just a mental state, or intellectual exercise. The Bible tells us that our final judgement won't be a theology test, but an assessment of how well we lived out the commandments to love God and neighbor. Accurate theology is vitally important, but God doesn't require everyone to be a biblical scholar. And it's only with modern technologies like mass produced books, widespread literacy education, cheap artificial light sources, and shorter work days that studying the Bible is even possible for most people. Historically, converts to Christianity joined the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church" described in the Bible and the ancient creeds. It was only with the Protestant reformation, and the thousands of sects that proceeded from it, that has forced every Christian to become a Bible scholar so they can discern what the Gospel is. And this has resulted in thousands of Christians chasing after false gospels.

[@charliek2557]

There comes a point in a man’s journey of faith that at the end of the day he must trust, in faith, where the Lord is leading him. When I started my journey toward Catholicism, all the arguments and facts pointed toward Catholicism, but eventually I had to experience the faith for myself with faith, in faith. When I did that Catholicism bore witness to itself and completely sealed itself both objectively and subjectively to me. God bless you brother Cameron, prayers sent to our Lord for you. 🙏🏻

[@DanUtley]

AMEN! I always tell people that the kind of faith that is required to be Catholic is EXACTLY the kind of faith that God asks of us. It is total abandonment. No more “We’ll *I* believe ….”, but instead “Lord, I trust you in this.”

[@cactoidjim1477]

Ditto

[@hc7385]

Yeah, being Catholic requires blind faith and a cult mentality.

[@vaseman3639]

Amen. Agreed.

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :) *But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)

[@evangarrett]

Incredible humility showed by Cameron. Enjoy watching Dr. White's debates on Catholicism. They were what ultimately started to push me in a Catholic direction.😆

[@michaelmannucci8585]

You must not have been listening lol

[@ironyusa3885]

@@michaelmannucci8585 Or, like most reasonable people, Evan doesn't find White's arguments compelling.

[@michaeldonovan4948]

I had the same experience, Evan. I reverted in 2020.

[@GP-dp4mr]

@@michaelmannucci8585 But don't you feel uneasy as a Christian that one side references people from 1500s to the 1600s as a way to prove "true" Christianity whilst the other one uses references from the first and second century? Regardless of the arguments made by those in 1500 it's still a millennium and half after Christ?

[@Benjamin-fu5ij]

LOL you definitely weren't paying attention. There's no way to leave those debates thinking catholicism is a better option than when you went into them.

[@joshs2986]

Wow. looking at the comments it appears that Capturing Christianity audience is just catholics now haha. Thought some good points were made. James White always seems to rub me the wrong way though. Less of a dialogue more of a rant.

[@repentantrevenant9776]

There has probably been a serious influx of followers from Trent Horn, Pints With Aquinas, and other Catholic apologists who are really hoping for Cameron to convert. Unfortunately there are a lot more anti-Protestant apologists on KZbin than anti-Catholic ones. Most of the Protestants focus on evangelizing atheists, whereas the Catholics really focus on converting Protestants.

[@covid19alpha2variantturboc7]

Yeah it's pretty cringe

[@Ttcopp12rt]

It is very sad...And even worse, many of their comments are blatant lies such as "JW was fumbling to make a relevant point" and these type of comments are getting 15 -30 likes. It demonstrates that Catholics are employing hate and dishonesty.... Everyone knows JW made the relevant point and repeated over and over... If I didnt know better I'd think this comment section belonged to a Muslim channel given the blatant misrepresentation and extreme ignorance displayed here.

[@thewalruswasjason101]

Same. I’ve never listened to him…he seems gruff and a bit abrasive. Thought he kinda attacked Cameron

[@luboshcamber1992]

@YAJUN YUAN Less than 1%. Way less than that. I am saying that as a former Roman Catholic, graduate from Catholic school, in a bigot Catholic country I have never met anyone who read it. Including my whole Roman Catholic family, friends and coworkers... 5% was VERY generous estimate on James' part, he just wanted to be nice I am pretty sure.

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

The issue that James White has is that he is still living in his 90s debate days of glory and he thinks he's the ultimate nemesis of "the Roman Church". All his argument here are arguments he has refused to give us even after they have been exposed multiple times.. @Cameron... Michael Lofton from Reason and Theology is offering to sit down with you to review this if you're interested... As I'm sure the likes of Trent Horn and William Albrecht will review it to pieces as well.

[@sneakysnake2330]

@LuthAMF They have never been strong is the point

[@sneakysnake2330]

@YAJUN YUAN I think he’s just saying that those were the days that White had his most popularity. Even so, one can win a debate and still not be entirely correct, as the other debater could just be bad at arguing their position.

[@irememberyou12]

@LuthAMF lol sure thing... nice try!

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

@YAJUN YUAN James White is a master at polemics and he got away with some of his debates... He's a very good debater but he was exposed by Jimmy Akin, Robert Sungenis and Pat Madrid and in some of his debates with Matatics. They're his glory days because he was the most popular anti Catholic debater in that era and he did do very well in some but it's funny that it's those debates that many Protestant James White fan usually see him exposed and swim the tiber... Many have become Catholic because of the debates people think James White won.

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

@LuthAMF They're as strong as ever right... Challenge James White to debate Trent Horn or Michael Lofton or Jimmy Akin and see how strong they're...

[@ryandersones]

James White's sister has a great testimony of her conversion in one of the Surprised by Truth books. She lays out a lot of reasons why James is so anti-Catholic and she actually became Catholic! It's a very good read.

[@tabandken8562]

She was also interviewed on the Coming Home network. A video here on KZbin.

[@nightshade99]

Yet his interpretations cannot be refuted

[@nightshade99]

@@mohankang8062 If White's interpretation reflects scripture, it is the truth. Prove ONE person who would follow Catholicism once exposed to RCC heresy. You have not proven ONE shred of evidence against James White other than you don't like what he has to say. In other words, prove that White speaks false....PROVE it.

[@klove1376]

James white gets refuted all the time on how to be Christian channel on KZbin.

[@nightshade99]

@@klove1376 Give an example

[@taylore22]

As much as James is getting push back I think it’s important to remember that he’s been doing this for years. That doesn’t mean being puffed up or arrogant is good. It doesn’t make him better or greater than anybody in the body of Christ, but we have to recognize that James has studied and is well versed in these topics. I think he genuinely has a passion of trying to encourage the body to know who God is and church history, so we don’t get swept away by false doctrines or follow anything but God. We are so quick to throw stones let’s pray for our brothers and all continue to seek God. Great conversation Cameron!

[@taylore22]

I actually think James is concerned too for Cameron because he’s trying to show the inconsistencies and if he really understands what he would be accepting if he converts to Catholicism.

[@Martymilner_]

Highly recommend speaking to Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology, Cameron.

[@Wgaither1]

Even better have Cameron speak to Pope Francis. Love to know what Pope Francis really believes on Roman Catholicism

[@peaceandjoy2568]

@@Wgaither1 🙁 Sigh. It would be better if he talked to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI instead. Pope Benedict is considered one of the most brilliant Catholic theologians today and maybe even of all time, right up there with Sts Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus di Ligouri and Augustine. And a very holy man. God bless him. May God bless Pope Francis too.

[@bellasbane]

Cameron seems like a nice, open minded guy. I hope he stays away from the Catholic Taliban who think they are the custodians of tradition. It was quite clever the way Pope Francis delt with that lot by taking away their favorite toy.

[@bellasbane]

@@peaceandjoy2568 It would be best if he stayed away from anyone who to fits James White's definition of a Catholic. You know you're on the wrong path when your world view aligns better with a Calvinist than Pope Francis.

[@jakeracick2301]

James White's debate with Trent Horn is a little part of the reason I am Catholic today

[@samruggiero1778]

Trent was great in that debate. James White's debates in the 90s looked good, but today people can actually quickly and easily debunk his arguments using internet research which they couldn't do in the 90s.

[@noobitronius]

@@samruggiero1778 internet research = finding biased apologist sources to agree with whatever you are looking for. On either side. I think everyone on the internet needs to do some legitimate study of the church fathers and not just look to their side to reaffirm what they believe. Agree with his conclusions or not, White has put some serious study into church history, and dismissing the points he raises as "easily debunked with a Google search" assumes that Dr. White is unaware of/has not responded to these objections you can find from Catholic apologists. Which is not true, friend.

[@arturarede2880]

That debate also reassured my faith in Christ and the Catholic church! God Bless Trent and pray for James!

[@nightshade99]

But Trent lost

[@Jimmycrdns]

@@nightshade99 it’s subjective. However, Gods truth always wins. His Church will always prevail.

[@NSAd_music]

I was really blessed by this conversation....Dr White was very insightful and I learned a lot. Appreciate your humility to learn new issues. God bless you sir

[@Hoodinator17]

Dr white is dusty

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Just try to apply White's logic to anything else, it never holds up

[@GP-dp4mr]

I'm interested why you thought Dr White was insightful?

[@FullMetalThomist]

I tend to get the opposite from Dr White. He is an expert at mental gymnastics, I'll give him that. He's incredibly arrogant, boastful and angry. I find Cameron to be a breath of fresh air, he is incredibly humble and acknowledges his shortcomings. He looks for the truth no matter where it leads. These are very admirable qualities that I think Dr White should look to adopt.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@G P Maybe try to listen to what he was saying? 🤔🥳

[@ryanbeaver6080]

The Papacy is why I’m not a Catholic. Really good conversation, awesome watching your journey Cameron!

[@ryanbeaver6080]

m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZbJkouBhr6IrJY

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Ryan, I am a Catholic Christian because of Jesus Christ, and The Church He built on Peter the rock, way before the new testament was ever written and that later determined the Canon! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@FullMetalThomist]

Sola Scriptura is why I'm not a Protestant anymore. I found that it was illogical, unhistorical and an incomplete theology. I found Catholicism to be the most complete, historic and logical form of Christianity from there. If the Papacy was somehow proved false to me I still couldn't be a Protestant as there are still options that make far more sense than Sola Scriptura.

[@johnyang1420]

Read book Pope Peter by Heschmeyer. If papacy is true, we should all be Catholic. Papacy is true.

[@elmermontilla6371]

@@FullMetalThomist what do you think about prima scriptura?

[@alyicehorvath9694]

The best quotes on the internet about James white are “James white made me Catholic” lol

[@jessidiaz1891]

Good convo. John Chapter 6 is pretty clear and I grew tired and became aware of the mental gymnastics I played with those texts while subscribing to the protestant arguments. Theres a mind blowing amount of typologies in that text that simply cannot be ignored or otherwise disputed. God Bless everyone here commenting.

[@Zilam]

What's clear about it?

[@JoshuaHults]

Went back re read John 6 i have no idea what you are talking about.

[@jessidiaz1891]

@@JoshuaHults sorry to hear that

[@jessidiaz1891]

@@jakelund3159 what’s it talking about then?

[@internetenjoyer1044]

John chapter 6 poiunts to the reality of the eucharist but really describes more of a reformed understanding than catholic

[@Thebibleguy96]

Listening to James White only makes me thankful that I have found the Catholic faith. And I'm so happy to see you on this journey brother! 💗

[@Wgaither1]

Listening to James White makes me thankful I found the Christian faith

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :) *But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)

[@RedWolf5]

@@Wgaither1 as you keep on growing in the faith eventually Catholicism becomes the only way.

[@albusai]

@@RedWolf5 Jesus is the only way

[@RedWolf5]

@@albusai You are correct that’s why he established only the Catholic Church and no other.

[@samcgilbert]

I seem to agree with James on a lot of things.. Will be checking him out for sure!! Thanks Cam!!

[@reetgoodministries1273]

Have you been living under a rock?

[@EpoRose1]

Think I’ll just wait for the Trent Horn response…

[@gideonwiley8961]

Bruh you read my mind. Wednesday’s are my favorite days anymore

[@metot1]

James Muhammad White won't stand a chance debating Trent Horn!

[@gideonwiley8961]

@@metot1 I don’t know if the middle name is supposed to be a dig or not, but I agree? Horn is a really good apologist with a lot of philosophical rigor. Not that white isn’t rigorous but he’s certainly no Horn.

[@melchior2678]

Trent Horn is a joke. He thinks CNN is a reputable source of news.

[@willire8811]

Think for yourself

[@solideogloria5553]

Cameron, as always, i love your humility! Jesus Christ is faithful. i also learned so much from Dr. White. God bless you both

[@Damian1975]

Cameron this debate / discussion is good for you. It will sharpen your skills and refine your walk toward Catholicism.

[@luboshcamber1992]

It could. If he doesn't belong to Jesus, then he will go to Catholicism.

[@Jimmycrdns]

@@luboshcamber1992 Jesus Body = Catholic Church

[@Christian_Maoist.]

@@Jimmycrdns Stop conflating holy orthodoxy with papal protestantism

[@Jimmycrdns]

@@Christian_Maoist. what out yall, we have the Muslim here telling Christians how to be Christians…..:

[@Christian_Maoist.]

@@Jimmycrdns I'm Christian, it's a troll username when I was arguing with some anti Muslim Evangelicals

[@seanthompson5077]

When I was Protestant I loved all the SOLAS because it took man out of the picture. The Reformation removed man from God’s plan of salvation. It took a long time for me to realize that the Lord has man, even with all his short comings and corrupt heart, intricately involved. This theme is saturated from Genesis thru Revelation.

[@Ttcopp12rt]

Amen! Facts!... You seem not to realize that this very fact argues directly AGAINST the RCC 😂

[@josephgoemans6948]

@@Ttcopp12rt I'm curious. What's your reasoning behind saying that the og comment goes against the Catholic Church.

[@Draezeth]

I'm protestant, and I recognize man's involvement. 🤔

[@Fasolislithuan]

@@Ttcopp12rt Lol. Your comment has not logic

[@jrconway3]

Calvinism destroys man's involvement I cannot deny. Mankind must respond freely and faithfully to God to be saved. Catholicism on the other hand is no better than the Pharisees of Jesus' day or the Galatians who placed another Scripture above what was given to the Apostles to God to write down and pass to the Saints.

[@roses8631]

Welcome home, Cameron! I knew that Truth will lead you home to the Catholic Church. Congratulations.

[@arizonajr]

James White made me Catholic. He's the reformed pope - whether he knows it or not, the spiritual father of the reformed baptists

[@trosengodinho5253]

Hahaha

[@arizonajr]

@LuthAMF he sure acts like he does

[@arizonajr]

@LuthAMF dude, read the thread, "he acts" like he's the ultimate authority for the reformed - aka the pope for the reformed baptists. Only James White knows what the Bible and church documents say (taken out of context of course)

[@arizonajr]

@LuthAMF I stopped drinking White's Kool-aid, and became aware of the Church that Jesus built - the universal church

[@MichaelSmith-qq5sh]

Also as catholics we have a rich field of theologians and saints to draw from. I feel like James White is just a meh Dr who stands out in a field of mediocre level theologians for the reformed.

[@malcolmhayes9201]

James white is such a blessing. He’s the reason I’m still and will remain a Protestant! I love his arguments especially the ones on sola scriptura. They’re the most compelling on the difference between Roman Catholic’s and Protestant’s. I’d much rather have my ultimate authority in God’s word than on mere man made tradition. I pray that one day Catholics and Protestants can hold hands and agree on this. Until that day alas

[@hildegardnessie8438]

The Catholic Church is the one true church and Protestantism is a false man-made tradition.

[@Thedisciplemike]

how do you define "mere man made tradition"? St Paul tells us to pass on tradition both oral and written. The oral traditions of the Church is just as much tradition as the Bible is.

[@OniLeafNin]

Sola scriptura is a man made tradition. The Septuagint is the historically accurate bible of Christians, the Masoretic Text, is merely a Jewish alteration.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@OniLeafNin amen

[@Onniesprairiegarden]

Here's the issue. The reason you have The Bible is because of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church decided which books were inspired by God. So you wouldn't even have your sole authority if not for the Church. Jesus chose His Apostles and Peter as the Rock.... their successors have this authority from Jesus Himself.

[@mg_claymore8611]

I'm an English Catholic. Came from a non-religious background. Like alot of people in Great Britain today. Converted after four years of studying religions and letting everyone defend thier beliefs. Long story short. I finally came to Catholicism and I was Home with a capital H. Can't explain it. But the Catholic mass. I felt like I've always been here. I made my choice based 99% on the history, facts, and logic. (Not on feelings and emotion.) And on what scripture said. +The writings of the church fathers. But oh boy does James like to talk about himself. He comes across as an old man, who is abit proud tbh. Wasn't convinced. I'm convinced by the church fathers and saints.

[@Nolongeraslave]

All people who do not like James White conclude that against him.

[@pierreschiffer3180]

@@Nolongeraslave Miriam! You here? :) :) What do you think about the theology of James White? Are you a Calvinist??

[@pierreschiffer3180]

@@Nolongeraslave Also, I think you turn things around: it is not that people who dislike White conclude these things about him: it is rather that people dislike White for these things. What is your personal opinion on White?

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@pierreschiffer3180 I believe in reformed theology!

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@pierreschiffer3180 I know why people dislike James. His opponents first muddy the waters before hearing him out. FYI I have listened to all debates he has done with Catholic Apologists as far as in nineties and also muslims and liberals and I have come to see his character against those of his opponents. In this particular conversation, the comment above is uncalled for. I don't think Cameron felt the same as this fellow's assessment. Cameron realised he talking to a much experienced person who is old enough to be his father and experienced enough to be his teacher. James talks to him as a parent and indeed he is knowledgeable. I myself had believed some wrong things, but because I was ready to listen and did not have biased feelings against White, I realised that I was wrong, and believe me, at the beginning, I did not like it ~ to be corrected, that is. Had been learning a lot from his dividing line programme as well.

[@asiapeach2387]

You should watch James White’s sister’s conversion story to Catholicism. She did an episode of the Journey Home.

[@hc7385]

This is fake news

[@miranda54084]

What’s is her name?

[@abandonrz]

@@miranda54084 patty bond

[@mlaura0721]

@AbrahamMiranda Mr White’s sister’s name is Patty Bonds. Apparently her conversion into the Catholic faith has given him even more reason to despise the Catholic Church Please pray for him

[@miranda54084]

@@abandonrz thanks 🙏

[@peaceandjoy2568]

James White seems to dismiss "the Matt guy" and the Roman Catholic Church. Without grace it may be impossible for him to see that the hated Roman Catholic Church just happens to be the one Church that Christ built and therefore has His authority and the fullness of the Truth. His pride and disdain will make it very difficult. May God bless him.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@Peace and Joy Hardly. James doe not hate RCC but what it did and keeps doing by keeping people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter has bever been to Rome, and there your house of cards falls apart right at the beginning. Study the history. I did my research thoroughly as a former Roman Catholic and wanna be priest. It is a lie, you "true church" is built on. Now you know.

[@mlaura0721]

@Lubosh Camber God only knows your heart and why you fell away from His church. I pray that in your search for the Truth the Holy Spirit will guild you to all truth. Life in Christ is a life long journey. Never stop searching. Never settle. Be blessed.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@@mlaura0721 Thank you. I was once like you. Blind, deceived, attending the masses daily, saying mantras of Rosary... That's what it is. Mantras. Just like you, I did not believe that Jesus did it all perfectly, I was spitting to His holy face by another mass attendance where we sacrificed Him again. I was stealing from Him ascribing His merits to His mother - or caricature of her painted to me by Roman institution. I was working so hard telling Jesus He is not enough. But I had the only true "church". Yes, that church that falsified Constantine donations, that very church that killed more people believing in Jesus Christ than Islam, lied about and keeps lying about that Peter was bishop in Rome for 25 years... which they have never been able to prove. I had exactly that "true church" which proudly calls itself Roman Catholic Church. Praying to Mary, worshipping Mary, bowing down to statues, going to pilgrimages, fasting on Fridays - just like you do Mary. Just like you, blaspheming God daily. You know, if you say never stop seeking. I don't need to keep seeking. I was found by Jesus. He forgave me, He gave me the new heart, love for Him, He brought me out of my sins, changed looser to a new person and saved me from the wrath of God I completely deserved! I was raised Catholic, was an altar boy, graduated on Catholic school, wanted to be a priest. I can beat you to the ground by quoting the Catechism of RCC. Till this day I can do that. I am sorry Mary. You are tragically deceived. And you love your deception. Because you are not interested in the Truth. May the Lord you don't know, and don't want to know have mercy on you.

[@nightshade99]

@@luboshcamber1992 Amen, brother

[@Jimmycrdns]

@@luboshcamber1992 curious what research you did and can you provide us with the sources. Thanks

[@FullMetalThomist]

This is really hard to watch. Dr White is incredibly arrogant, angry and boastful. I've watched about a third of the video and he is not kind or charitable to Cameron in anyway. He still doesn't seem to understand Catholic positions and he talks down to Cameron about not reading books approved by his own personal authority. Man...I feel so sad for this guy. Cameron, you are awesome. You handle yourself like a true follower of Christ. Your humility and search for the truth is very admirable. You never snapped back at Dr White and respected him even in the face of his anger and arrogance. Love your channel and it's diverse guests, peace be with you my friend.

[@Danboy0001]

@Thoska Brah I thought it was pretty bad from Dr White and think summary from @Jake Hargus was fair

[@gameologian7365]

I’m surprised someone who has debated Catholics for so long still doesn’t know the nuance of papal infallibility as Catholics teach it. It’s not a good look to be using straw men for someone who claims to be so well read. I’m also disappointed Cameron didn’t correct him

[@Wgaither1]

@12345shushi well said

[@gameologian7365]

@12345shushi This is exactly the problem. Listening to non Catholics interpret it without knowing how it works results in this thought. Look up ex cathedra with this topic. That’s the only time the authority is considered infallible

[@abelj5145]

@12345shushi Blindly follow the popes is definitely not how we work. We willingly submit ourselves yes. But not everything a pope says is true or prudent. The person who is the pope is not infallible.

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Your Pope is not infallible even if he speaks ex-cathedra. That's simply a delusion on your part. Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :) *But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)

[@timetravlin4450]

@@abelj5145 how does that make any sense he’s called the pope. Isn’t the pope infailable

[@thereisnopandemic]

Love Dr James White, my family is full of Catolicos no surprisingly we are Salvadoreños, and Dr White has been very helpful when I engage with them. Even though I don’t agree with Dr White in a couple things, since I’m Reformed as in the line of the late Dr R.C. Sproul. Que en el nuestro Señor Jesus Cristo descanse. Protestantism is growing in Latino America, Gods is faithful, many former Catholics are getting out. It’s the opposite in nation like The United States, where a lot of truth was revealed in the past, many here are going for Catholicism I knew a former pastor in Washington named Jason Stellman who became sadly a Roman Catholic. Pray for him

[@Maria1000G]

Hi Cameron, please speak to Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology. God bless.

[@willire8811]

Please think for yourself and I’m sure Cameron will do the same.

[@Maria1000G]

@@willire8811 I have. Cameron, please speak to Michael Lofton. God Bless.

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

@@willire8811 Lol..what a comment

[@freda7961]

@Will Ire We do that in all aspects in life. We learn from each other to help us discern what to affirm or deny, what to follow or not to follow. We learn from teachers, from professors, from preachers, from books written by others, from people we meet from day to day, and so on, and we build upon them. That doesn’t mean we’re not thinking for ourselves. Lofton is brilliant guy. Whether you agree with him or not, I’m sure many of us could learn something from him. At the very least, his views are worth examining.

[@michaelg.tucker6363]

That was a great conversation. Glad that you had it because Dr. James White is a great source/wealth of knowledge about this topic and as well as many more. I learned some new things myself that help continue to solidify my Protestant faith.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

Lol

[@joecardone4887]

Brother, James White knows very little about Catholicism. He’s misleading people.

[@christopherfox3891]

@@joecardone4887 you Catholics answer just like the muslims a lot of the time. You make these general accusations at more knowledgeable people, such as Dr white, then utterly fail to point out examples of what you’re accusing the individual of.

[@michaelg.tucker6363]

@@joecardone4887 Since you seem so confident in your statement/assessment about Dr. James White then PROVE IT!!! Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Be a man , step up to the plate and take everything that Dr. James White said to Cameron in their conversation and PROVE with FACTS that Dr. James White is misleading people. BUT, I am sure that you will not and instead redirect the challenge to something else. Because that is what ultracrepidarians typically do.

[@michaelg.tucker6363]

@@joecardone4887 Secondly, you obviously have never listened to/watched any of Dr. James Whites many debates against Roman Catholics. Because he clearly won every single one of those debates.

[@danim2897]

“ That Matt Catholic fellow” He knows ALL the Catholic apologists well. He makes his living and owes his fame to Catholics. Lol 😂 Humility Dr White. Humility

[@matthewrobson6335]

🤣🤣

[@crobeastness]

Lol true

[@michael7144]

Hmm, touche

[@BrianGondo]

🤣🤣🤣

[@Catholic1391]

Prayers to Saints. Catholic vs Protestant. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpKbmoqwacR8bZI

[@WilsonAcres]

Cameron..... You are a serious fav right now, and I have a genuinely difficult time following James White so every time you said you were not following the argument, I was right there with you!!

[@beowulf.reborn]

Cameron really needs to get Orthodox Apologists on his channel and hear their reasons why the entire Eastern Church split with the West over the papacy. Even though I am a Protestant, and disagree with the EO's on a lot of things, they definitely have a lot to contribute when it comes to the history around the whole rise of the papacy, etc.

[@philosophersbench6595]

You need this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWSYqJuum8qMaKs

[@easternmcg]

@Duane My suggestion would be Seraphim Hamilton (Kabane)

[@beowulf.reborn]

@Duane Perhaps Fr. Josiah Trenham? I've seen him on a number channels and vids, although he does come across less Ecumenically than I'd like to see.

[@nenabunena]

They did not split over the papacy and 2, there are many eastern Catholics

[@jesuschristsaves9067]

He’s definitely running from Jay Dyer

[@ChristyOFaghan]

this was a refreshing dialogue that aired a lot of the reasons why people are protestant by conviction rather than tradition

[@dustinnyblom7835]

Exactly. Follow the truth because it’s true, not because my family group up that way. That’s how I ended up reformed

[@jaserader6107]

@@dustinnyblom7835 precisely. Follow the truth to protestantism because catholicm is satanic

[@dustinnyblom7835]

@@jaserader6107 exactly

[@mathildamiller8424]

One converts to the FULLNESS of TRUTH because one is led by the HOLY SPIRIT.

[@MMonika3]

You got the meaning of the Word TRADITION wrong here! Tradition in our faith means it’s OLD from the beginning of its institution by Jesus Christ himself!

[@broco6608]

Thank you for this, very informative! This needs to be a series, there's more that could've been discussed. At least a part 2.

[@sarahlowery5823]

Cameron, you showed such grace. I’m thankful you are going through this journey so publicly. I too am trying to discern Catholicism and it’s comforting to know others are rowing this boat with me. You are an inspiration and encouragement to many. Gosh bless you and your ministry and may we both find our way home, no matter what Christian church it is.

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :) *But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 in Lumen Gentium Para 16, teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)

[@mari7775]

@@solacanonicascriptura6139 The sacraments is what’s missing. The Divine holy presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and the forgiveness of sins through confession. God bless you

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

@@mari7775 Francis, Robert Barron and the Rev Arsenault disagree with you teaching even a "good" Atheist can be saved. :) *Pope Francis* : 254. *Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God* ”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”.[200] But due to the sacramental dimension of sanctifying grace, God’s working in them tends to produce signs and rites, sacred expressions which in turn bring others to a communitarian experience of journeying towards God.[201] While these lack the meaning and efficacy of the sacraments instituted by Christ, they can be channels which the Holy Spirit raises up in order to liberate non-Christians from atheistic immanentism or from purely individual religious experiences. The same Spirit everywhere brings forth various forms of practical wisdom which help people to bear suffering and to live in greater peace and harmony. As Christians, we can also benefit from these treasures built up over many centuries, which can help us better to live our own beliefs. APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION,EVANGELII GAUDIUM OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL ON THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL IN TODAY’S WORLD *Bishop Robert Barron* : No [i.e., Ben is not “basically screwed”]. The Catholic view, go back to the Second Vatican Council, says it very clearly. Christ is the privileged route to salvation: “For God so loved the world he gave His only Son that we might find eternal life.” So, that’s the privileged route. However, *Vatican II clearly teaches that someone outside the explicit Christian faith can be saved [cf. Lumen Gentium 16]* . Now, they’re saved through the grace of Christ, indirectly received. So the grace is coming from Christ. But it might be received according to your conscience. So, if you’re following your conscience sincerely, or in your case, you’re following the commandments of the Law sincerely, yeah, you can be saved. Now, that doesn’t conduce to a complete relativism. I mean we [Catholics] still would say the privileged route and the route that God has offered to humanity is the route of his Son. But you [a non-Christian] can be saved. Even Vatican II says *an atheist of good will can be saved in following his conscience* . John Henry Newman said the conscience is the “aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul.” It’s a very interesting characterization, that [the conscience] is in fact the voice of Christ. If he’s the logos made flesh, if he’s the divine mind or reason made flesh, then when I follow my conscience, I’m following him whether I know it explicitly or not. So, *even the atheist, Vatican II teaches, of good will, can be saved* . *Father Joseph Arsenault, SSA* , archdiocesan consultant for ecumenical & interreligious affairs, explains……… Q: What does the Catholic Church teach today about faithful Protestants, Jews or non-Christians entering the kingdom of heaven?A: “We teach that *it’s a possibility for everyone to enter heaven if their life conforms to the ways of the Lord* ,” said Father Joseph.“They *may not know or acknowledge Jesus,” he added, “but if they have an openness to striving to live a good and godly life, then, doing that, they are pleasing to the Lord* .”

[@irishali896]

It is good to search out the scriptures for the truth, as St. Paul praised the Bereans for doing so with his own words, however you should become grounded in something and not be open to everything to be tossed about to and fro on every doctrine. It all boils down to whether you trust in Scripture alone as the only authority for salvation, or whether it is scripture plus tradition etc. The Bible is clear on salvation, and the council of Trent denied the Gospel itself by anathematising anyone who believed in complete justification through faith alone in Christ apart from works. *"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."* -Galatians 2:21

[@ZombieTactics]

It’s interesting to see the number of comments regarding everything but the actual content of the discussion. “White looks mean” is not a coherent response to anything.

[@mattpoole7507]

James White’s debates with Catholics is what made me Catholic 😂 especially his debate with Trent Horn at the G3 conference in Georgia a few years ago. I actually went to the church that started the G3 and I’m grateful I was there because the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established and that debate was instrumental to me discovering that.

[@God1stProductions]

Yes 💯💯💯 God bless you brother

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

Vatican 2 in Lumen Gentium Para 16, teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)

[@mattpoole7507]

@@solacanonicascriptura6139 good question! I’m a Catholic because God gives abundant graces in the Catholic Church that can’t be found anywhere else. God has opened my eyes to the truth of the Catholic Church and to go against that would be a sin against God. The same section you reference states “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.” If I weren’t to become a Catholic at this point it would be through my fault and that section would no longer apply to me. Hope that answers your question!

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

@@mattpoole7507 Please define "through no fault of their own" and provide an official definition and source from your church? Because The Council of Florence disagrees with you and Vatican 2.

[@solacanonicascriptura6139]

@@mattpoole7507 *The Council of Florence (1441)* the Bull Cantata Domino: It *firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire* which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that *no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church* .

[@Vereglez-d4z]

I think it would be fantastic if Cameron spoke to Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

[@Wgaither1]

Even better if Cameron spoke to Dr John MacArthur

[@mlaura0721]

EWTN lead me to Fr Mitch! Love him! The man is treasury of knowledge of history and scripture.

[@brockgeorge777]

Don’t agree with Catholics on those things that divide us. But I have always said *if* I were a Catholic, Mitch Pacwa would be a role model. His debates with James were just as James White said. An honest man, who doesn’t spin.

[@clarissa7428]

Just want to second all the comments saying to engage with Michael Loften on this (or Trent Horn, but Loften is really engaged with White’s content/errors and is also brilliant).

[@melchior2678]

Never heard of Loften but Trent Horn is a clown who thinks CNN is a reputable source of news.

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

@@melchior2678 could you provide the time stamps or quote the source where he said that?

[@clarissa7428]

@@melchior2678 Loften hosts the Reason & Theology channel; check it out. I’m not sure that Trent thinks CNN is reputable or not or if he was just appealing to what it reported to make a point to those people who think it is (bolstering what he said), but in any case it doesn’t address his specific arguments. I think if we are to evaluate Trent’s quality as an apologist it should be focused on his actual arguments (which are good!) than on him as a person (his media preferences, since that’s still ad hominem), since that isn’t relevant to the effectiveness of his actual arguments.

[@melchior2678]

@@ezekielizuagie7496 he attempted to rebut a comment a made on his channel by posting a link to CNN's website as a source to back up his claim. The video is about Roe v Wade.

[@melchior2678]

@@clarissa7428 it doesn't matter how good your arguments are when you're spewing lies. You need to research what ad hominem is because I never stated that his arguments are flawed based on him as a person.

[@tobiwillis8809]

Thanks to both of you! I've seen a lot of James White debates. Sometimes he does a better job, but there are others where he's outgunned. Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Patrick Madrid and Scott Hahn are a few. Mr. Whites intentions are good, but he's not well informed on certain issues. Confession of sins does not rejustify you, but is commanded! The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth! God bless!!!

[@TLL418]

Why do you have to confess in front of a priest though… why can’t you repent to God? …

[@tobiwillis8809]

@@TLL418 sorry for late response! My understanding is Jesus gave the apostles that authority when he said, whoever sins you forgive are forgiven. Whoever sins you retain are retained, which was handed down to their successors. Also we're told to confess our sins outloud. You can Google Catholic answers, to get any questions you have answered. There are a lot of videos on KZbin, where people call in with the same questions. Good luck and God bless you!

[@jessicah1568]

Brother - We dig your transparency, kindness, and humility. Be blessed

[@AFJDP]

Hey Cameron, I have to say that I am proud of you. For a time I have been disturbed by some Christians that you have valued as great teacher, and was concerned that you were not open to correction, but your inviting James White and your willingness to hear what he says with humility, has caused me to change my view of you. You seem sincere and willing to learn and that is impressive. I do like much of your content and have learned from many of your videos.

[@solarjudgement4575]

I wish it was longer. Definitely want to see more conversations between you two and would love to see you speak with Douglas Wilson and Voddie Baucham.

[@daynehaworth9258]

No! They are both deplorable

[@davidperman7517]

That sounds like a great idea!

[@Serquss]

It seems JW's major gripe with RCC is that it denies him the freedom to determine his own conclusions from reading the Bible.

[@AveChristusRex]

Rejecting the papacy just means you've made yourself the pope instead. I mean, err, 'the Holy Spirit.'

[@hjc1402]

Uh no?

[@hjc1402]

@@AveChristusRex you relied on yourself when you made your own decision that the pope was right. Should you have been denied that choice from the beginning? Can we stop with these lame arguments?

[@Serquss]

The problem with the idea of ‘determining your own conclusions from the reading the Bible’ is that it inevitably leads to chaos. You give the Bible to five different people, and ask them to determine what the doctrines of the faith ought to be based in what they read, there is no way they will conclude the same things. It’s taken centuries of councils to flush out essential doctrines, and all Christians regardless of tradition, have depended on councils, early church fathers, and reformers for guidance on the essentials of the faith. This doesn’t necessarily prove the Papacy, but in light of the real possibly of doctrinal subjectivity and confusion, it would be fitting that God would provide us a hierarchical Church with the authority to teach and to provide guidance for faithful disciples.

[@hjc1402]

@@Serquss sola scriptura is not determining your own conclusions from reading the Bible. It is that the Bible is the ONLY infallible rule. It is still interpreted by the body of the church together as a whole through councils and what have you. It just means regardless of what is the proper interpretation of the Bible, the Bible is the only thing infallible, not any council, not any one bishop. And that the word of God has ultimate supremacy, not any one bishop. No one can teach something that goes against the word of God. That is what sola scriptura is, the infallibility and supremacy of the Word of God as our rule of faith and that is what the church fathers believed and demonstrated that belief numerous times. They never thought any council or one person was also infallible or had equal authority as the Bible. And I do believe God provides worthy doctors of the church throughout the centuries. It does not mean they are always infallible or that their teaching authority is equal to that of the Bible, or that they must be in the position of the bishop of Rome to be so. Likewise with councils.

[@jesushernandez-eo8fq]

Truly admire the work your doing Cameron in seeking the truth... absolutely loves when you ask to bring in the goat in apologetics Mr. Akin 👍👍 God bless you my friend

[@ChristOrChaos777]

Great conversation! Very loving, yet frank. I’m glad they got to the question of the blessed man at the end. Cameron, I hope you wrestle with this question above all others.

[@irememberyou12]

Yeah baby p. Romans 4:6-8 does not refute Catholcism. Try again next time. Cameron see what Aquinas says about the blessed man.

[@digitalat2]

Its a pure red herring of a question…

[@ChristOrChaos777]

How is it a red herring? Do we believe that our only basis for peace with our Creator is through the perfect, finished work of Christ on which He now makes intercession for us? Or not? It’s good for Cameron to reconsider this. Your entire life will be turned upside down when you understand that “to the one that does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”

[@irememberyou12]

@@ChristOrChaos777 Catholics have peace as per Romans 5:1

[@ChristOrChaos777]

@@irememberyou12 Right! Believers have peace with God “since we have been justified by faith.” Paul explains what that means in the preceding chapter. It’s the faith of Abraham which was credited to him as righteousness. We’re this close to being on the same page! 🤏🥲

[@tessweston3857]

Thanks!

[@BackToOrthodoxy]

Way to go Cameron. Good patience and this was a great and informative dialogue

[@lucaspacitti182]

The whole "No Bishop at the Council of Nicaea believed in Catholic doctrines" seems very impressive, until you realize that out of 318 bishops at Nicaea (coming all the way from Spain, from India and all corners of the world) we only have extant writings by 3 of them: Saint Eustathius of Antioch (only one book criticizing Origen's supposed Sabellianism), Saint Alexander of Alexandria (just two letter on the Arian controversy, and one homily on the Passion and Ressurrection) and Eusebius of Caesarea (voluminous works, but mostly historical writings). Curiously Eusebius does tell us that the Apostle Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, but I'm sure James would say he's too late to be reliable. If he's too late, then why bring it up the whole bishops of Nicaea bit, if you're just going to dismiss what they said? Also, he said none of them believed in the Assumption of Mary, which is a gigantic argument from silence, since we have no writings from 99.06% of them, and there's no writing of them denying the Assumption. No one can prove historically if they believed or didn't believe the Assumption, so the point is moot. P.S.: Before anyone brings Saint Athanasius, he was a deacon, not bishop at Nicaea. Just sticking to the arbitrary parameters that James set up

[@Ttcopp12rt]

🤦YOU are the one making argument from silence - not the other way around. Let me educate you young man, in academia, the burden of the claim is on the claimant. Since you guys make the claim regarding the assumption of Mary (which is found nowhere taught in Scriprure) than the onus is on YOU to evidence your claim.... You are ignorantly arguing backwards, but nite that no one would deny the "assumption" if it wasnt alleged in the first place. You guys are something else 🙄

[@lucaspacitti182]

@@Ttcopp12rt 🤦JAMES =is the one making argument from silence - not the other way around. Let me educate you old man, in academia, the burden of the claim is on the claimant. Since James made the claim that we can historically prove that no Bishop at Nicea believed the Assumption of Mary than the onus is on HIM to evidence his claim... No Catholic ever argued that we can historically prove that the Bishops at Nicea believed the Assumption of Mary. It's James who is making the opposite argument. You are ignorantly arguing backwards, but nice that no one would affirm the "assumption" if it wasnt denied in the first place. You guys are something else 🙄

[@alphonsustheleast1537]

@@Ttcopp12rt and yet you Calvinists don't even have Bishops to begin with.

[@lucaspacitti182]

@@alphonsustheleast1537 LOL

[@KevinDay]

@@Ttcopp12rt Perhaps you should try taking a class on logic before trying to "educate young men". That's not what an argument from silence is. I'm as protestant as they come but I can recognize a terrible argument when I see one. Assigning the burden of proof is completely different from claiming someone is making an argument from silence.

[@arizonajr]

Everything James White says is in a Double Predestination mindset - black or white, cold or hot, damned or saved; always trusting in your own intellect and in yourself instead of trusting in Jesus' good works as practiced in the Catholic Church through the Liturgy & Sacraments.

[@kyleisbored7465]

Seeing you and Dr. White talking like this is very really surreal to me. God bless you, Cam

[@jdsmith2k7]

Catholicism adds to the gospel. They add dogmas that one must believe in order to be in a state of grace. Including the immaculate conception, papal infallibility, etc. This is adding to the gospel of grace. Salvation is by grace through faith. One enters a state of grace by repenting of their sins, believing on Jesus and being baptized(washing of regeneration). Faith and repentance is what keeps one in a state of grace, not holding to extra biblical dogmas like the immaculate conception or papal infallibility.

[@derrickcarson]

💯

[@emenem6131]

I enjoyed this…..I personally have been on a journey to learn early Church practices. Not overlooking Luther, Calvin, or the Papacy….. I WANT TO KNOW HOW the early Church walked out their faith once the chosen Apostles of Christ were gone. Several reasons for my own understanding but also because I have been asked……”so they couldn’t get along? Why so many denominations? From herecy?” You can’t just say it’s complicated. The early Church of Christ the Lord were of one mind and united. Admonishing, forgiving one another, and practicing humility, self control, and looking for the Lord’s return. The “world” hated them without legitimate cause. We should be asking when and why changes were made. Make Christ our King and do what pleases The King. I enjoyed this and I understand it’s a ministry. Important as any as long as we have love for each other. People rightly want to know where all this comes from. I’m thankful for the watchmen. We all will give account.

[@emenem6131]

@12345shushi thank you I’ll check it out

[@EricBryant]

I'd suggest Orthodoxy if you want the fullest expression of a New Testament, post-Apostolic church

[@joseortegabeede8233]

Read the apostolic fathers, most wrote between 90AD-150AD, they were the 2nd generation of the church. St ignatius Clement of Rome Justin Martyr Iraneaus

[@adamboehmer9166]

James White is his own Pope.

[@nickhideki]

Great dialogue. I’ve learnt a lot from White today and will research the resources he shared.

[@mitchellperez23]

Cameron, your teachability is an inspiration to me.

[@angeedrinkscoffee]

I find it Interesting after watching many of the interviews/videos/debates on your channel and many Catholic ones… I am not trying to be biased but the humility and charity of the Catholic community really shows. James White screams arrogance and self righteousness. I was amazed throughout the video how he didn’t stop talking about how he was so great and better. Keep finding your way home Cameron. 🙏🏽

[@Matt-ck3pp]

To be fair, Gavin Ortlund shows great humility and charity, also. He seems like a very genuine person.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@Angelica Valenzuela It is because you are not seeking the Truth of the Scriptures and glory of God, but glory of the people you like.... James is one of the most gracious people I have ever seen. And one of the best theologians out there - said even by most famous Catholic apologists out there. 😉 I was born and raised as a Catholic in a fanatical Catholic family and in a bigot Catholic country. Stop fooling yourself. Those "nice" guys are nice, because they're telling you what you want to hear. They are telling lies, but you do not care about the truth. You just want to hear your truth confirmed...

[@angeedrinkscoffee]

@@luboshcamber1992 this tone you give is exactly the point of what I mentioned about Dr. White. You are assuming all of that based on my comment. You know nothing about my journey or what I have lived or looked into myself. My faith isn’t based on who I like to listen to the most on these platforms but rather what has survived for over 2000 years and what Christ himself left for us when he walked this earth. He left a church and that’s what I will continue to follow. We believe in one Holy, Catholic, Apostolic church … I hope one day you find your way back as I did.

[@maninthefire]

@@Matt-ck3pp I agree with that. I was surprised how kind Gavin was in many of his dialogues. James here is disgusting how arrogant and condescending he is

[@ericcollins6231]

To be fair - I think that is just James White. I really dislike the guy, and I don’t understand the following he has. I have never seen the fruits of the spirit from him. His tone, his words, his insinuations. They have always turned me off. As an aside, I’m sadden that he is the one that has so much content on the trinity and debating modern day sabellianism. - Wish we had a better source for it.

[@AveChristusRex]

No one strawmans Catholicism better than James White.

[@FrankGrauJr]

White never strawmans Catholicism. He simply knows it better than most Catholics, which is why Catholics ignore their own history and choose to remain under the yoke of Rome, much like those Israelites who wanted to remain in Egypt.

[@jttierney1]

Very true! Also Dr. Robert Jeffress of First Baptist church in dallas.

[@AveChristusRex]

@@FrankGrauJr James White not only strawman's Catholicism, but clearly knows better. Which makes it even worse. He knows Catholics don't teach have of what he says they do.

[@FrankGrauJr]

@@AveChristusRex Or, far more probable, he knows catholic history better than those catholics who mistakenly believe he's knocking down straw men. And it's rather conspicuous that catholic apologists simply engage in ad hominem attacks against White without ever rationally dealing with the substantive content of his arguments and evidence.

[@AveChristusRex]

@@FrankGrauJr That's ridiculous, why would you assume Catholic apologists know more about Catholicism than specifically anticatholic apologists? White knows Catholics don't think Jesus is being 'recrucified' etc. and all the standard tropes of the Protestant Revolt, and all the other implications he makes - that's why it's so much more of a sin for him to keep implying that to his ignorant (at least on these points - not calling them ignorant in general) audience. He's more guilty of being disingenuousthan straight up lying - like choosing literally the most flowery prayers to Mary in all of human existence as proof we 'worship Mary' - while disregarding the doctrine of those who wrote and even explain them - Protestants audiences are neither equipped nor care enough to process such an onslaught of lie-by-omission+anticatholic-interpretation. But he's still guilty of strawmen, and bad ones.

[@rolandovelasquez135]

Just started watching this and I can tell it's gonna be great. Thanks again Cameron. What you do is invaluable 👍🏼

[@verwesne8121]

The amount of false info, misinformation and distortions James white produces when talking about Catholicism is shocking to say the least. It’s just mindboggling that White, despite supposedly dealing with such topics for decades, is repeating the same errors and false claims over and over...smh Ps: he sure likes to hear himself talk 😅

[@repentantrevenant9776]

Such as?

[@franciscor.m.8003]

Any example of misinformation? I'm curious

[@fungusbeef]

@@franciscor.m.8003 There are many, many egregious misunderstandings and distortions that James White expressed in the conversation, but a glaring example is his... unique interpretation of Canon 6 at Nicaea. It's surprising, and frankly laughable, that he doesn't understand how this doesn't contradict the primacy of the Bishop of Rome given that there are patriarchs of eastern Catholic churches today who have jurisdictions that extend beyond their own diocese. This is Catholic ecclesiology 101, and yet he thinks he's scoring points against the Papacy.

[@darewan8233]

@@fungusbeef The issue of canon 6 is not primacy but jurisdiction. These are separate issues. See also Council of Chalcedon canon 28. With respect.

[@fungusbeef]

@@darewan8233 That was exactly my point. Canon 6 is referring to jurisdiction, but James White says that Canon 6 proves against the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. This is absurd, since there are -- today -- bishops within the Catholic Church whose jurisdiction extends beyond their diocese. There is nothing about Canon 6 that is in any way incompatible with the modern Catholic Church.

[@adanrodriguez2124]

YES! Lol exactly what Dr. White says at 28:00. Without the whole catholic enchilada, what do you actually get for joining other than a fast pass out of purgatory?

[@katiehendricks6719]

Cameron, I’m catholic and have been watching you for a while now. I just want to say your character shined through in this video. He was passive aggressive to let you know that you and your channel are unimportant and implied you were unstudied. He gave you almost no time to talk or discuss. He just ran over you, throwing out all of his accolades. It was hard to watch. I just wanted to call him out on his pride. Thank you for being kind, and like Christ even when you weren’t respected.

[@robertryzner9219]

How did you get any of that? Dr. White was very friendly and he was there to teach the host. That was the point of the conversation.

[@Nolongeraslave]

Your comment is childish.

[@katiehendricks6719]

@@Nolongeraslave I disagree, but thanks for the feedback .

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@katiehendricks6719 If you scroll through the comments, the dislike expressed by Catholics towards James White is astounding! I know where this comes from, long before this young man. But to judge him even when anyone can hear and see him talking and present him as you have done is simply unfair! Behind this all, I would guess that you are all nervous that he is talking to "your convert to be" and these type of comments are to muddy the waters~ it's so unchristian!

[@katiehendricks6719]

@@Nolongeraslave I can see how that may come across in my comment. I should have explained. I have listened to James White for a long time. I am recently a catholic. I was a reformed Baptist and very much was in line with James White’s theology before becoming catholic. I was excited about this interview. I hoped that it would be cordial and informative. Even before becoming Catholic I was always embarrassed by the way that Dr. White interacted with people. He is very knowledgeable. Although I disagree with his theology. I wish he was not rude and condescending.

[@honestabe4161]

Well this was interesting but now that we know the Mr. White’s objections, a good debrief would be awesome. Lots of things said I feel we’re not really expanded upon enough and the conversation was kind of all over the place. I feel like observations from the outside can sometimes can be misinterpretations because of not knowing the full truth. Thank you Cameron for having this conversation with Mr. White and God bless you.

[@Tybourne1991]

Cameron's humility stands in stark contrast to James's self-promotion, aggrandisement and attempts to dominate the dialogue from the outset. I think we need to take on the mind of Christ to discern how to proceed. As Newman says, to be deeply immersed in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

[@NoahRichardHarris]

Started by saying something about humility, ended by a with a triumphalistic by-line that strawman's protestants.. 😉

[@ravi.2124]

Hi. I am an ex hindu . Who became a protestant. And I am a Catholic . It took some time for realization. I know you'll be slandered and insulted at first. But Catholicism is true.

[@phantommaximus5600]

That's based Ravi.

[@ravi.2124]

@@phantommaximus5600 always has been . 📿✝️

[@Brandon.Germany]

It is actually false

[@kevinfernandez9999]

@@Brandon.Germany no.

[@UltraAar]

Catholicism isn't biblical

[@kathyweiland4732]

Cameron stay the way you are you are so humble and sweet

[@mari7775]

This man’s ego is up the roof…. Cameron, I can definitely see God working in you and admire you for seeking the truth. I’m always impressed and excited for new converts as they have just discovered the precious treasures in the church. I will pray for you, can’t wait to see you enjoying the fullness of the Catholic faith. I would never leave Jesus present in the Holy Eucharist that fills my heart with incredible joy.

[@nickswoboda6647]

I am not a fan of Dr. White’s delivery or tone, but I think it should be noted that he has been publicly defending against and/or countering the same arguments for 30+ years. That’s bound to make anyone a little irritable. Also, that’s probably why he keeps making reference to times in the past when/where he addressed an issue instead of rehashing the same stuff again and again. It seems, at different times over the last 30 years, he has been the only Protestant willing to engage the issues. There also seems to be far more Roman Catholic and far fewer Protestants dealing with ecumenical issues and engagements even today. I can see how that could get exhausting as each new generation thinks they have something new only to re-present the same arguments presented during the reformation even if they are just repackaged. All that said, I do wish he would work on being more gentle in his engagements… listen more, etc. I think we will be held just as accountable for how we teach as what we teach.

[@derrickcarson]

Exactly this! I couldn't have said or explained this any better.

[@TheRoark]

Not a personal fan of White's demeanor, but his arguments against the papacy are very strong. That said, I totally understand why people don't like listening to him 😅

[@Ttcopp12rt]

💯

[@freda7961]

Which arguments did you find “very strong”?

[@FrostyIceman]

Cameron you have a great channel and it’s helped a lot of people. James White is a little rude to be telling you how you should be running your channel when you’ve helped grow so many peoples interest.

[@rebeccastrange7326]

Agree. Cameron your humility is admirable.

[@solideogloria5553]

James is just being james, i love them both, the way the lord used them is amazing in their own ways. praise Jesus

[@jenrybeacon]

It's noticeable that James only quotes from early Church Fathers writings that seems to support his position and leaves most things that doesn't. He really can't hide his despise of the name "Catholic" and what It stands for. I understand why he stands where he stand and the self-aggrandizement.

[@rollingrockink1]

Reading this comment section, you would've thought that it was between an angry and an infant. Is white not an elder in the church, and a teaching elder, and apologist for decades? Does he not have something to say? Younger men should be quite and listen to older men, most importantly in this context. And lastly, these are two men, this is how men in the ought to speak, debate, and think critically to get to the truth. God has spoken, his grace is sufficient.

[@jotink1]

Cameron needs to understand why he is Protestant not just what the differences are between Catholicism and Protestants,. Like Dr White says he needs to be a Protestant of conviction that is a big difference.

[@nottiredofwinning3736]

He is Protestant because he hasn't converted to Catholicism yet.

[@markanthony3667]

When ego enters the conversation, everything is convoluted and much is lost. Instead of blowing his own horn, James could have simply presented his concerns about Roman Catholicism and Cameron would have listened and responded in kind. The world would have been a better place. But now, Vladimir is bombing Volodymyr for no reason at all only just to demand recognition.

[@patrickimrie7155]

Great comment

[@Silverhailo21]

You have a lot of integrity Cameron for engaging this topic so seriously. The way you're handling the situation and your method and process for doing so is great it really helps to weed through the infinite comments and books and opinions. James White is pretty good with rhetoric and is very confident in himself and his abilities however most of his arguments have been refuted very soundly by many former protestants who have consumed a lot of his material and then started investigating his various claims and arguments further regarding his opposition to the Catholic faith and become Catholic. That isn't proof that the Catholic church is necessarily true however it is something to keep in mind that so many well-intentioned men and women who professed the name of Christ and still do and have only gotten more serious and more holy about their faith found his critiques ultimately insubstantial. Something you may find helpful is doing a systems analysis as well of especially the reformationist / calvinist position which is what James White interprets everything through and compare it to the Catholic faith. There's a lot of assumptions in Calvinism that make it untenable. The doctrine of total depravity is one as someone like James White would understand it, irresistible Grace is the other one, and the perseverance of the Saints as they understand it is another and their theory regarding the atonement of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross known as penal substitutionary atonement, PSA for short. Praying for you.

[@SerenityNow22]

Giving up Christ’s perfect sacrifice on my behalf for the hamster wheel of works & penance. Never sure of my salvation and resting in MY WORKS instead of Christ’s. Think I’ll go with what my sufficient scriptures say, thanks.

[@joshs2986]

Gabe, You make some good points. I think the fact you turn it back on another position that James White has gotten wrong is a little silly. Stick with his catholic arguments. Not other stuff

[@Silverhailo21]

@@SerenityNow22 You've missunderstood the Catholic faith.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@joshs2986 White's main arguments against the Catholic Faith have to do with his presuppositions. It should not be granted that his assumptions are correct.

[@joshs2986]

@@Silverhailo21 what in his Calvinism has anything to do with what he has said today?

[@beautythought3502]

I admire your humility Cameron God bless

[@stephenkeen6044]

Cameron, you need to discuss the same topic with Mike Winger. I feel his approach will match yours well, but bring some very valuable points to the table. If you're really open to hearing both sides, I would say Mike can present Protestant arguments in a way that is a good counterpoint to Matt Frad's.

[@australopithecusafarensis8927]

This is the conversation that converted Cameron Bertuzzi

[@jackolyte]

James White seems to have a knack for converting people to Catholicism 😂

[@australopithecusafarensis8927]

@@jackolyte he does!!

[@danim2897]

Imagine the church having a messy tumultuous history with sinful men in its 2000 years …much before the internet, printing press, television etc. IF Dr white was alive before Christ….he would have been out there telling all the Jews that they and their religious leaders were not the real “church” of God because……you know they were “messy” and “ sinful” and there were some issues with their claims of a priestly line of succession etc. etc. 😆

[@j.athanasius9832]

Sounds exactly like what a prophet would do?

[@chad969]

Would love to see Jimmy Akin vs James White

[@MNskins11]

Akin cleaned his clock back in the 90’s. It was devastating. I’m pretty sure it’s on KZbin

[@mjramirez6008]

there are at least 2: on Sola Scriptura (Pints with Aquinas) and on Predestination (catholic audio)...

[@captainunload]

White isn't very likable in my opinion, but his facts on the Church of Rome- they seem indisputable. Athanasius's correction of the Pope caving in... I just dont get why anybody would think Rome makes sense after reading the Bible and studying history.

[@johnmackall8243]

Around 48:00 James says only Athanasius at Nicaea stood against Arius. That is patently false. Only 2 bishops out of over 300 took the side of Arius. The Pope, Saint Sylvester I, was not at the council and had legates there. There is no known evidence of a pope ever teaching Arianism. @Capturing Christianity please check some of James' claims because he cites stuff very fast and acts like its fact but it is not always so. I do not know if he does it intentionally, but I just want to warn you to check his claims. I say this as someone who used to listen to James a lot.

[@willcunningham7049]

It seems to me that James White is absolutely correct in pointing out that once someone accepts Papal Infallibility to be true, it’s only logical and even necessary that that person would accept all the other Catholic dogmas to be true. If Papal Infallibility is not true, the whole structure falls apart.

[@FiMvisibl3]

That's true, but JW was actually trying to make a stronger (and false) claim. He said that if you came to accept papal infallibility (let's call it I for short), that should also boost your a-posteriori confidence in it (and every other dogma) to 100%, which is simply a non sequitur. One could have a, say, 95% confidence that I is true, and all that would do is lower-bound your confidence in all other Catholic dogmas at 95% as well. Indeed, if X is any dogma, since I => X (or in other words P(X|I) = 100%), this means P(X) = P(X|I)P(I) + P(X|~I)P(~I) >= P(X|I)P(I) = 95%. It seems to me that JW is tacitly assuming that "accepting X as one's belief" means lending 100% credence to X, but that is obviously not how epistemology works.

[@t.d6379]

I doubt you even know what it means.

[@katrinagiovanni891]

Summary : Whites primary opposition to Catholicism is Papal infallibility and the authority of Rome. (Join the club of converts lol) Reality : Pope Francis has issued no infallible "teaching " during his time as Pope. Any statements he has made are far from infallible. He is not sinless, perfect or without error .

[@TheologiaEvangelica]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (quoting Denzinger): "The Church has twice condemned the view that faith ultimately rests on an accumulation of probabilities. Thus the proposition, "The assent of supernatural faith . . is consistent with merely probable knowledge of revelation" was condemned by Innocent XI in 1679 (cf. Denzinger, Enchiridion, 10th ed., no. 1171); and the Syllabus Lamentabili sane (July, 1907) condemns the proposition (XXV) that "the assent of faith rests ultimately on an accumulation of probabilities." As is argued by Catholic apologists such as Brian Cross, probabilities are 'motives of credibility' which are needed to get into Catholicism, but once you are Catholic, you trust the Magisterium even if the evidence seems to be against it. You trust the Magisterium not only for current dogmas, but for every dogma to be defined into the future indefinitely. Hence, the faithful Catholic is to live as if the probability for Catholicism is 100% (ie., infallible). That is the point James White is making -- a merely probabilistic justification for belief p, does not justify an irreformable belief in p. A logically certain, deductive proof is necessary and yet still insufficient, on account of personal fallibility. A probabilistic Catholicism would be as absurd as saying, "The Pope is 97% sure, that he is 100% correct and infallible".

[@toddupchurch1028]

Not accurate

[@TheologiaEvangelica]

@@toddupchurch1028 As Scott Hahn notes, if a person believes Catholic dogma because he personally agrees and has been persuaded of them, he is not truly Catholic. A Catholic is someone who holds to Catholic dogma because the Magisterium teaches it. Though evidence did lead him to become Catholic, his faith in the Magisterium is not epistemically contingent on that evidence. As the Catholic apologist Brian Cross writes, ///What about the person who becomes Catholic because the Catholic Church teaches his own interpretation of Scripture? How is such a person not in the same epistemic situation as the Protestant? A. He is in the same epistemic situation as the Protestant. If a person becomes a Catholic on the basis that (and hence condition that) the Catholic Church shares his own interpretation of Scripture, he is not truly a Catholic at heart; he is still a Protestant at heart. One does not rightly become a Catholic on the ground that one happens to believe at present all the doctrines that the Church teaches. That approach is a form of rationalism, not fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding). One rightly becomes a Catholic by an act of faith in which one believes all that the Catholic Church teaches, even if not fully understanding it, on the ground of the apostolic authority of the Church’s magisterium.///

[@toddupchurch1028]

@@TheologiaEvangelica And would I agree with what they are saying. While it’s learned and erudite, it’s a lot of verbiage for this simple statement “Seek not to understand so that you may believe; but believe so that you may understand.” I know this much, if one thing about Catholicism is false, then all of it false. Fortunately, Catholicism doesn’t have that problem.

[@TheologiaEvangelica]

@@toddupchurch1028 I think you agree with the point I am making. If a person believes in Catholic teaching on the basis of it seeming probably true, then this person is not really Catholic. As Aquinas writes, "though he intends to assent to Christ, fails in his choice of the things involved in that assent, because he chooses, not what Christ really bequeathed, but what his own mind suggests” (Summa Theologiae, 2a2ae, q. 11, art. 1) He who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things . . . such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will. (ST II-II Q.5 A.3; see also Summa Contra Gentiles I.5) This article from Catholic. com is helpful: www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-true-faith-requires

[@Ttcopp12rt]

💯...Unfortunately it seems that our Catholic friends cannot the simple reasoning if their lives depended on it...Its pretty simply though

[@josueinhan8436]

Bertuzzi, dear one, I strongly recommend you to schedule a conversation (also personally, off cameras) with the Pastor and Dr. Gavin Ortlund, from Truth Unites. I'm completely sure it will be an enriching moment for you before taking any decision about going to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. Futhermore, your audience will love that conversation. Blessings!

[@glorianiaga2111]

Dr. Ortlund has been on the channel a couple of times. And Cameron, so blessed, has his personal number.

[@josueinhan8436]

@@glorianiaga2111 Indeed, Gloria! Last week I was looking at Bertuzzi's channel and I realized this.

[@sharonrich7414]

Dr white is very educated but can’t stay focused or on point. How kind and respectful his opponent. White is just hogging and interrupting this whole conversation and bragging himself up to show how smart he is. Would have liked to here more from his guest.