Can 30FPS Games 'Feel' Better By Running Internally At Higher FPS?

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[@razu1976]

We played with this during the development of Colin McRae Rally 3. We found that running the simulation down to 10Hz didn't feel all that different from 60Hz as long as the game displayed at an interpolated 60fps. If we displayed at 30fps and increased the simulation to far over 60Hz it didn't feel as good. Key word here is feel. For the actual simulation you want to run at a high rate to capture more surface detail. Miles per hour is roughly double that of metres per second. If you simulate at 60Hz, at 120mph you're moving around 60 metres per second and so you're sampling the world at 1 metre intervals - you're going to miss a lot of detail. The perception of more control when you actually had fewer inputs per second is super interesting.

[@deathtrooper2048]

1:30 yeah, it's crazy how at 60 FPS Destiny 2 has over 80 ms of input lag while COD Infinite warfare has less than 49 ms on PS4 and still has less than COD Cold War at 120hz on PS5 at around 50 ms (Nexus Gamer tested input lag times for Cold War).

[@audie-cashstack-uk4881]

It’s the k tho if balanced what I detest about many of gamers is there need for ADVANAGES surly more skill is what they need let’s compare so to pc both have mouse aim fps one a massive aim crutch THE DESK the other a 3d mouse that doesn’t have a massive aim crutch let go of a Wii remote it falls to the ground let go of a mouse it’s super glued to the very spot you left it at AIM CRUTCH now let’s play fps everyone on Wii was the same fos and res and conditions WHO WINS the most skilled fos er wins obviously now let’s compare that to pc were the SO CALLED CORE gamers okay oh look I need 300 frames to beat 60 fos guy and I need to install cheats

[@flufficornss]

@@audie-cashstack-uk4881 what the fuck are you on about

[@vitordelima]

50 ms is 20 Hz, that's very slow.

[@hyperhighdrosis]

did u have a stroke buddy?​@@audie-cashstack-uk4881

[@deathtrooper2048]

@@vitordelima I am talking about the actual input lag, not frame times.

[@secondcut3138]

for some reason horizon forbidden west on ps5 feels really responsive in the 30fps mode. normally i can't play at 30fps because of the input delay, but that game feels really good

[@sklynexd]

It feels fast, but looks much worse than 40 fps balanced mode imho. Those extra 10 fps feel much smoother to play

[@HelFrostKara]

Sometimes I think the way characters handle can affect the feel. Like the RDR2 character movement needs to be at least 60FPS to feel tolerable to me (it's like 27FPS on console). Whereas some games have really smooth characteter movement which is unaffected by framerate.

[@TheUAProdigy]

It's because it is v-synced and actually achieves a 30fps target the whole time. You are used to 30fps being 25-30fps but you wouldn't know unless you had an accurate fps counter on-screen.

[@coolmacatrain9434]

I just tried Half-Life 2 VR (and a few other games) on a friends PC at the weekend via Virtual desktop and the Quest 3 running at 120FPS ... MIND BLOWN! It was like real life! Zero nausea, no stutter, smearing, blur et al Now, I've owned a Quest 2 and now have a Quest 3 since launch, but most of the time I never even turn the thing on, it could sit for weeks; but seeing what a powerful PC can do for VR and a good head-set is incredible!!!! I actually bought a gaming PC on Monday because I was so impressed (4070 Super paired with an i5-14400F) ... Plus I can now get to play and see Half-Life Alyx as it was meant to be seen/played. Yeah, FPS is HUGELY important for VR at least .. I'm going to replay every possible flat screen game that I can on PC, because I feel that i've ruined (my own enjoyment) of so many great games over the years because of consoles chugging along at 20/30 fps or less! A recent(ish) example was "The Last Guardian" it was a stuttering mess on the PS4, ruined the whole experience; for me anyway EDIT And yes, I'm in the process of ordering a 165Hz Monitor!

[@SwirlyTwirl]

Congrats! PCVR is awesome and more people should get into it.

[@MegaKiri11]

Did you connect Quest 3 with a cable or wireless?

[@coolmacatrain9434]

@@MegaKiri11 Virtual Desktop ... wireless!

[@directorjustin]

Despite all the hype around DriveClub's input response from the developers, it still suffered from the typical lag of 30 fps. If there were ever an argument for why developers should include an option to unlock the frame rate for forward compatibility, this game would be one of the greatest examples for it.

[@ScientificZoom]

Art style packs how much information is there to be holded by both rams, this also matters

[@L1vv4n]

Well, it's not like computer just waits for 1/30 of a second and than instantly generates a frame from current information. Regardless of current state of simulation, frame is generated from information available when frame rendering is started, not from what is available when it finished. So it will have a benefit only if game managed to render more than two frames between showing the last one.

[@splashmaker2]

This should be the next step for frame gen (input new transforms for key objects), but this would require some cleverness to make the API easy enough to integrate broadly. I have a feeling AI could solve part of the complexity problem.

[@soraaoixxthebluesky]

What he just described is a technology call fast sync. Game engine running at a higher frequency while output rendering cap at certain frame rate (to avoid screen tearing usually) by dumping the excess rendered frame for every other frame or higher depends on internal frame rate.

[@iceman78772]

I think he's just talking about input polling itself running independent of the framerate. osu!Lazer, Tetrio and Reflex for instance are games that poll at 1000hz even if you cap the game's rendering at 1 FPS.

[@doublevendetta]

Except he's not described fast sync. Fast sync is still rendering all of that information, it's just getting visually DUMPED. The suggestion being made here is to run only the LOGIC/input above 60 well the actual 3D render pipeline is still only outputting 60 frames per second

[@ninjatogo]

@2:24 How are they parallelizing everything but then running on a single CPU thread?

[@jcm2606]

It could be a matter of having everything be handled _concurrently_ instead of in parallel, sort of like how async IO is handled today. You still have a single thread running all the logic, but the logic is broken up into distinct "jobs" that can be paused and resumed at specific points in the code, such as if the render job is waiting for vsync. When the render job reaches a point where it's waiting for vsync then it can signal to the outer job handler that it can be safely paused, and the job handler will switch to another job that is ready to be resumed. Eventually the job handler will be signaled to return to the render job, at which point vsync should have passed and the render job can continue (the vsync interval itself could actually act as the signal, but that'd likely need a second thread to keep things running smoothly).

[@DesenhoBoy]

I must have been the only to notice that games locked at 30FPS on PC started to have really smooth mouse input since the PS4 generation started. Was this the cause or just generally better PC versions compared to the horrible PS3 days?

[@KillahMate]

I suspect it was a combination of generally more powerful PC CPUs (PS4 and XB1 had comparatively very weak CPUs so any cross-platform games would run significantly better on PC by default) and significantly reduced display lag on PC (around that time Microsoft was finally starting to take latency seriously, system latency on Windows has basically sucked forever and only improved over the last ten years through a concerted effort by Microsoft and the GPU companies).

[@MegaKiri11]

It's just you getting older. People lose time resolution perception with age.

[@FuIIDiveVR]

Some games already do this like GranBlue Relink and I think it works amazingly well.

[@ScientificZoom]

What if a game is in completely in its raw form without any encryption or decryption

[@rayder3543]

Why not Async Reprojection instead? Best of both worlds.

[@alexpulchritudoff7999]

I think 30 worked in the early lcd tv days because the pixel response was so slow. But now TVs have good pixel response and 30fps looks like a slide show.

[@Torso6131]

There's definitely something to this. 40 FPS on OLED kind of reminds me of 30fps on my older LCD visually (Still better though).

[@DragonOfTheMortalKombat]

True, on old LCDs I still struggle to tell 30 and 60. But on newer IPS monitors especially my laptop display which 144hz, it is very clear that Higher FPS is better.

[@vincenzocasale99]

Yes

[@birdman4birdlegs]

So this is the framerate version of super sampling?

[@TheSoxor123]

I have a 4090 and PS5. I buy most of my games on PC because of the overall better experience but every PS5 exclusive game I've played, I've done it in "Prioritize Resolution". For instance, I'm playing Stellar Blade at 30 FPS. I guess I dont really care about frames as long as the game looks good but I will not touch a game that drops below 30.

[@biIl]

i think the commenter might be talking about asynchronous reprojection which LTT did a video on.

[@thekenty]

Betteridge law of headlines says... NOPE

[@manostororosso2364]

NFS MOST WANTED felt really slow tho.. when I wanted to steer the game felt like it needed a second to react (PS3) ...it was a pretty bad experience for me compared to GRAN TURISMO or Burnout

[@khizarkhan7305]

it felt fine on pc

[@burchmore5000132]

That's almost entirely due to how slow they made the wheels turn though. On PC there's a mod to make the wheels always match how much you've tilted the thumbstick exactly and it feels incredibly responsive.

[@sklynexd]

Yeah no that was the issue from the game itself not the 30 fps.

[@will891410]

30 fps is pretty good when it is stable and hardly locked with proper motion blur, dof, movie grain and chromatic aberration.

[@Darksignstudios]

dog crap tastes pretty good when its fresh and you cover it in chocolate, sugar, a nice caramel drizzle and honey comb crumbled over the top

[@will891410]

@@Darksignstudios So you ate it? 🤢😵‍💫

[@mikeuk666]

​@@Darksignstudios you eat 💩 wow

[@jankmedia1985]

​@@Darksignstudiosyou should stop eating dog poop. That's really gross.

[@drdrekek8284]

​@@Darksignstudiosthat feels exactly like what he said doesn't it? Lmao

[@richi95]

I strongly think most games are nowadays benefitted by the fact that current consoles are far more powerful than they might just need to be. GTA V launched in PS3, and modern CPUs are several orders of magnitude more powerful. I think that fact it's leveraged by several ways nowadays to improve latency, at least to a good standard for 30fps games

[@Charlymander]

I have no idea why, but literally the BEST 30fps game ever made was the original Resident Evil 4. Seriously that game felt like it was 60fps on Gamecube it was so smooth I never noticed it was running at 30 and it never dropped frames, EVER. I don't know what they did but the gunplay is perfect and its actually the only game that I dont like to play at 60fps because it feels weird, like it does something wrong to the engines physics. If games can be like that sure why not 30fps but I think the problem is that games these days have become very complex graphically.

[@DesocupadoXtremo]

60fps is really a magic number, playing Hogwarts Legacy on my 6700xt droping from 110 to 90 was imperceptable, BUT GOD DROPING FROM 60 TO 40 IN HOGSMEADE WAS TERRIBLE, it really breaks the flow of the game

[@steel5897]

If game logic was tied to FPS in modern games then you wouldn't be able to change for example the direction of movement between frames, think of how bad that'd feel in 30 and under.

[@audie-cashstack-uk4881]

What would be the point tho if it’s 60 make it 60

[@bobdylan2843]

30fps is actually ok on my oled if i sit far enough back and brightness isnt too high

[@flufficornss]

i love how people are just gonna be in the comments like waahh i want 60fps when like 30fps can also be a stylistic and artistic choice if executed well we watch movies at 24 fps but because they have decent motion blurring you can't tell but if you ever bring that up to people about 30fps in games they get upset, the major issue with 30fps is not really the visuals usually unless it has shit frame pacing and no motion blur but its the input latency that kills the enjoyment of 30fps games and i'd imagine finding ways to lower that latency to 60fps feeling would help out a lot of devs who want their game to be presented in 30fps

[@HelFrostKara]

A lot of the time 30FPS looks and feels horrible to me but I noticed recently that some games (like Zelda games), somehow look and feel great at that frame rate. I wonder if this is related...🤔

[@frogfarmer3551]

Spec chasing ruins games. I watch DF because im curious about what nerdy things happen in the gaming world but i enjoy my switch, XSX and pc for varying reasons

[@MoonshineBeforeSunshine]

2k at 60fps should be the standard.

[@sauhamm3821]

fps isn't really the problem, frame time/pacing is.. yes 90 fps with a perfect frame time looks and feels amazing. but I'll take a solid locked 33.3ms tickover vs 60+ with hitching any day...

[@FuIIDiveVR]

Yep along with all elements of ui, animations, and other visuals being consistently the same fps.

[@Ray-dl5mp]

That’s why VRR is a game changer. You get the benefits of the higher frame setting without the negatives. I know it might not be perfect with huge swings so you need a target that makes sense. But big reason why people love 40 fps vrr (if needed) 120 hz modes or 60 fps modes with vrr.

[@danielwilliams3161]

Fallout 3 on ps3 vs pc is so weird

[@soulsbourne]

No... The reason everyone knows how difficult bloodbourne /DS is is because the game rendering and action speed increases with frame rate.. it helps in making the difficuilty even as the hardware speed increases or decreases. Else 5000$ GPU PC player with a 120fps will have a vastly different GOD MODE difficulty experience than a 30 fps console player or a 15 fps intel hd graphics player*

[@GForceIntel]

30 fps runs better or looks better on switch as well as ps4 than it does on ps5. 30 fps on pc looks really, really jittery

[@lanarkorras4411]

It doesn't look any better in my book. 30 fps is 30 fps, and playing Doom Eternal as well as other games like that doesn't work well no matter the platform. There are differences in input latency, but not in the smoothness of the image.

[@lordspalse0062]

I'll take Crossgen games with 60fps on my ps5 for the rest of the gen over some pathetic so called current gen games that run in 30fps and still look like pure horseshit Imagine how stupid one will be if you wanted Ragnarok and forbidden west to be 30fps only so they can look better than they do now on the ps5.

[@ficha13]

I will mention it here again, but something is very wrong with most implementations of 30fps in modern games. It seems very jerky and off and I know it's not because of switching between 60 and 30. I tested this by going from 60 to Last of us on the PS3, on a 4k tv, and ended up playing the game for hours and having no problems and that game drops to 20fps. I don't know what they're doing, but the only game where I had no problem was Callisto Protocol on 30. It felt good and the screen wasn't jerky. Ghostwire Tokyo might be the worst 30fps i have ever seen on a console, the picture just blends together and it was the first time a game made me queasy and my eyes uncomfortable

[@KenBladehart]

I think youre talking about motion blur. iirc old games rarely do motion blur compared to nowadays

[@ficha13]

@@KenBladehart nope, expected this answer already. it isn't motion blur. be it on or off in a lot of games, something isn't right. i tested it with ps4 and ps3 where i had no issue, but the ps5 is another story. I know it's some sort of issue because the first time i saw it was years ago with evil within. the 30fps lock on pc is just horrible, while the ps3 version that drops really badly felt smoother to play

[@KenBladehart]

@@ficha13 Youre forgetting that motion blur cant be turned off whatsoever in older console games. Old console games doesnt have graphic settings to tweak how the game look

[@ficha13]

@@KenBladehart again, still doesn't change that ps5 games with motion blur on or off have a problem. also, some ps3 game to my recollection didn't even have motion blur and most ps4 games did have the option to turn it on or off and gave me no trouble. Not trying to be mean but I don't understand what you're trying to prove exactly, I did testing, I tried old and new games, tried motion blur on and off. I don't really mind 30fps if reaction time is good, but this isn't even that. I thought I was crazy while trying multiple ps5 games, just to pop in some ps3 games and have no trouble at all

[@KenBladehart]

@@ficha13 Again, I assure you, its most likely motion blur Motion blur in old games are used to "hide" choppy frame rate. Complete opposite of how modern games use motion blur, theyre trying to "simulate" how human eyes see

[@arjun10able]

Best way is to play AAA titles after 5/6 years if you don't have high end pc 😂 i am enjoying fallout 4, prey, jedi fallen order, hellblade 1, etc with latest hardware in 60 fps. Still waiting current gen patch for RDR 2 , Sekerio Bloodborne. Not playing till 60 fps in console.

[@HelFrostKara]

Speaking from experiance, RDR2 at like 27 FPS on console vs 60 FPS on PC is SIGNIFICANT. It makes the weird character handling much more tolerable.

[@jankmedia1985]

30fps is fine for some games. For others its not. Hell, some 60fps games make me motion sick which is weird because I dont suffer motion sickness for anything else and I also play VR on a regular basis. That first Star Wars game, Fallen Order or whatever its called. The first hour had me feeling queasy as hell and caused me to stop playing.

[@007GoldenLion]

40 FPS is the sweetspot. 60 relquieres lowering graphics too much at 4K if you have anythibg bellow a 4080 in modern games

[@tysopiccaso8711]

Just don't play at 4k, 60fps is the bare minimum

[@lpnp9477]

Damn Alex cover up them shoulders bro

[@mikew1080]

Console gamers need to come to terms that they are budget boxes. 30fps isn't going to disappear. Get used to it or buy a PC.

[@noodles9345]

Game runs at 30 FPS - "Bro this is ridiculous, modern $500 plastic boxes can't run games with todays graphical expectations like my 4080. Pathetic devs." Game runs at 60 FPS - "Bro this is ridiculous, modern $500 plastic boxes run games at 900P with FSR, everything is blurry and no RT LMAO. My 4080 crushes this. Pathetic devs." Everybody will forever complain that their mass market toy is stressed to its limit with nearly every single game that comes out. These same people also seem to not be able to comprehend that each dev team is different with a different set of skills and capabilities. Just because TLOU2 looks like its sent from heaven doesn't mean that another studio can do the same. Also, each game is different and has different processing requirements for whats going on in the game, thus dictating how high a resolution or framerate can even go, while still looking at least halfway like a current gen game.

[@andyward8430]

Starfield had pretty darn good input response at 30 but it is visually distracting to move the camera too much whereas at 60 the camera panning doesn’t break the image nearly as much. 60 should just be the standard. 30 worked on crt tvs but those days are long gone. 30 is a giant compromise for modern games and it’s sad that it is continually justified when we all know it’s bad.

[@soralifestory]

Im so tired of this frame rate thing. Look if youre on console we have always been at the will of the developer vision, always. For multiple generations and especially the early 3D generations, less than 30fps was a norm, shoot even into the first HD Gen we were getting sub HD and Sub 30. I dont see any problem and understand gamers have been spoiled and i think thats fine too. However, on a console at least if you want increasing fidelity and worlds, the frame rate will take a hit. Most people have been loud about how this gen still feels like it barely started but then claim they want 60 all the time. If thats the case build a PC or keep enjoying last gen looking games on new systems. You cant have it all

[@lpnp9477]

We're specifically asking for lower graphical fidelity in exchange for better responsiveness.

[@harktz983]

No. 30 fps is trash no matter how you cook it. It simply shouldn't exist, 60 should be the minimum standard for all games.

[@bradleyokane]

I agree. I can't go back 60 is now the minimum before I even consider playing any game now. Became spoiled by pc and fps boost on xbox

[@Yan23459]

30 fps is enough to have fun

[@jankmedia1985]

30fps is fine for some games. Some classics run sub 20 and are still classics. 🤷

[@denernogueira8829]

Agreed. Just develop your game around that target on the base machine (Series S right now) and add up from there.

[@Plumtopia]

I wouldn't say that's true, While games like shooters, fighting games, and racing games benefit greatly from 60fps, there's a lot of genres like turn based rpgs, vns/point & click adventure games, party games, games like animal crossing (dunno what genre that'd be considered lol) where 60fps is nice to have, but isn't a game changer by any means

[@WhiteAzn25]

Wow another video of DF trying to gaslight people into saying 30 fps is good.

[@KenBladehart]

As a person who played tons of old games that locked at 30FPS. There are nothing wrong with them

[@fvallo]

just put a chinese apu in it...

[@exotikification]

When DF realized that Sony games doesn't reach the promised 60/120 fps and try so save the Sony Soldier by make ppl accepting the 30 fps now. It seemed like 30 fps was a trash framerate 2 months ago... Surpriiiise ! so right now they will talk about input lag more than ever.

[@MichaelM28]

Literally every single Sony first party game this generation runs at 60-120fps. Cry harder xbot

[@exotikification]

@@MichaelM28 btw native 720p and 936p with this cheap DLSS for the poor to help this box reaching some decent zoomed (upscaled) definitions 🤣

[@ifstatementifstatement2704]

Yes