Can art be objectively bad? With CJ the X

[@nefariousyawn]

Today, my favorite KZbin woodworker interviews my favorite KZbin essayist. Amazing!

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you! CJ is pretty amazing. 😀

[@scooter-kid]

Hearing CJ talk always inspires me to create, this was a wonderful conversation to listen to!

[@creativeculturepod]

Thanks, he totally inspires me too! I'm working on art this weekend...and not shooting video of any of it! 😄

[@dergutechtd-air209]

I can see why the conversation at the screening was CJ's favorite, it's very obvious that you two are very complementary creatives!

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you!

[@casin0circus]

20:39 Maybe It's just because I'm autistic, and much of what I do creatively is influenced by hyperfixations, but I personally disagree with the idea that the creation of art and the process itself inherently is inextricable from the desire to show it to others. In my case, I only ever post a fraction of what I make, and what is left is either entirely private, or shown to those very close to me as a show of vulnerability, and trust. I don't care if they like it as much as I do, I'm just letting them know what I'm up to, and what I care about as a ritual part of the relationship dynamic. Often times, I do not show these projects off specifically because I do not want something so self indulgent or intimate to be seen by someone else. It is BECAUSE I'm always having to perform for people in my day to day with masking my autistic traits already. It is scary at times, precisely BECAUSE these others were not considered in the process at all. Many times, even when it comes to kind people, I don't want to give that peice of myself to them. Of course, there is a lot of art that I do enjoy showing to people, and do create with the intention of communicating a thought or a feeling to others, and as CJ said, there is a great consideration for wanting to convey the message effectively, but for me (and I'm sure for many many others) the message itself I guess will stubbornly remain what it is, because I should get to have it. CJ touches on a concept of perfection related to this later on in the video but it's very relevant to why I feel this way. This is why I feel like the concept of expressing something to another person, vs the self, are both equally real and valid places to create art from, also. For a specific example, sometimes I make these hand sculpted and painted little figurines and miniatures just for myself to have. It's crossed my mind a few times, sure, the idea of sharing some of it after the fact for those who might enjoy them, but for the most part, I don't really think about anybody else at all. I just make these physical peices for the purpose of having them around me to look at, to be able to hold, and reflect on I guess? I don't just scratch the itch of creating for the sake of it, I also have the thing now and it is inherently for me. I get self conscious because I do make them to my own specific standards which I can meet and be happy with in a vacuum, but then I have such a personal object that represents a physical manifestation of my interior self, which I must now protect at all costs. Even if it's something as mundane and innocent as a cute little guy I made to sit on my shelf! Sometimes the creator and audience are just both me, and the reason for that can vary greatly between projects, and between mediums. Sometimes I need to tell myself something, and the artistic process is decoding and communicating not for an outsider, but for me. Similar to journalling, I would keep sketchbooks with doodles of what I was thinking and feeling, but with little to no text. These sketchbooks were not meant to be read. Infact, a big part of why I did that at all was to keep my feelings and thoughts I needed to explore away from the judgment of others who might see it. An intentional encryption, not so much an artefact for a future viewer. Sometimes it isn't that deep and I just wanna make an ugly little creature to have! Maybe I just don't get what you actually meant here! But my main point I'm getting at, is that for people like me( a high masking autistic woman) the performance for others is less of a factor in our art, because we live in a near constant draining hell state of needing to perform already. We constantly deny ourselves that integrity of "self", the aesthetic sincerity in every minute action, for those around us who expect us to live like that in order to be treated with compassion. Before I was better at communicating, but still tried to mask for approval, I grappled with understanding myself. It felt like nobody wanted to put in the effort to understand me that I was putting in on my end for their sakes. At that time, I would dissociate /detach from the concept of myself as a person SO OFTEN. In a way, the idea is that I make for myself, because I myself am as worthy an audience as anyone else, and I retain my sense of self by keeping in touch with her. I also cannot expect others to necessarily relate to or manifest my particular desires into tangible form for me. It is nice when that happens! I do enjoy and look for that, but I don't count on it. Even in the still relatable desire to make something in order for it to be seen, the aesthetic sincerity is all that I have! It's ironically the only way to escape the charade, to put forth the effort to have it be perceived "correctly", but in doing so, the whole point is that this thing as a concept, regardless of it's resulting physical form, is immutable. It's only acting as the clearest lense with which people like myself have the ability to give a glimpse of that kind of authenticity so that we may participate in it at all. All that I make, what I show to others and what I don't, is made from a place of stubborn self interest. It's how I demand that I be allowed to be me. It's actually because of that idea that I do enjoy posting what portion of my art that I do, because nobody can really stop me from making that demand in this kind of space. They can ignore it or not like it, but I still get to be on my weird girl bullshit regardless. Maybe I'm naive because I haven't experienced much hate online for my creations! idk! I don't think I'm alone in these feelings. TLDR: I agree with a lot of stuff ya'll said but personally, I like making stuff for me because if I don' do it nobody else will. It just won't exist. Also I will become a husk of myself, a consciousness piloting some stranger who feels like a made-up character. I won't exist either.

[@dmxnlss]

u said everything i wanted to say about that point and more lol, thank u

[@casin0circus]

@dmxnlss aw np! Thanks for taking the time to read it! I'm glad you found it relatable

[@dmxnlss]

@casin0circus from one high-functioning aspie gal to another. i often tell people: what you perceive as creativity/good taste is just me trying to make a small zone of comfort for myself in this world that isn't built for people like me. i'm just trying to navigate the tidal wave of sensory input of Life by clinging onto things that I know make me feel okay. clothing/fashion is such a cogent example. other people tell me that i have a unique sense of style. what's actually happening is I'm selecting for colors, fabrics, textures, and shapes that won't irritate me or will make me happy to sit through 8 hours of social nonsense.

[@casin0circus]

@@dmxnlss Oh absolutely! The fashion aspect really resonates tbh! I feel a lot more comfortable in some materials than others, and the way certain articles of clothing are constructed either make me feel more free or more supported than others as well! certain colors also just feel more pleasant to look at and make my brain happy. It's hard to explain to a lot of people who assume that the resulting fashion sense I end up having is curated specifically to give them a perception of me that aligns with a particular archetype or persona, like i'm trying to advertise a self to them in order to garner specific responses from them. No, I'm not trying to make you see me as anything in particular other than a person. But this explanation is assumed to be insincere by people who don't get it.

[@celesiamigardine4903]

Omg I felt really bad when they said that but couldn't articulate why but you did so perfectly what I was feeling as well. Thank you for this

[@SoVidushi]

"the performance of your personhood isn't all of your personhood" at the end is going to stick with me for a long time. Thank you for this episode :)

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you for watching!

[@kelechi_77]

When CJ talks about how instagram values the process more than the result it reminded me of what artists like John Cage, Andy Warhol and Jackson Pollock, when they gained acclaim their process a lot of the times overshadowed the actual art. Warhol with his screening method, Cage with his philosophy of indeterminacy and Pollock with his explosive and physical way of painting, these were more sensationalised than the results they produced

[@dorabyrne]

Latecomer to this video, but at about the 43:00 mark when you are talking about analytics, I was moved to add a little to the discussion from another angle. I'm a licensed therapist, and I've noticed that all the places that provide mental health services are now really pushing on us the idea that we have to give out these standardized assessment questionnaires EVERY single time we meet with a client (in case this isn't obvious, that is very unnecessary in my professional opinion). They say it is to gather analytics to provide better services, but in reality it's just so that they can have data to put on a graph that shows that people get 16% more mentally healthy or whatever by using their services. It's all marketing. And the people pushing this either know nothing about actual mental healthcare, or they have 1000% sold out and will do whatever to avoid rocking the boat and disrupting their career. tl;dr: Analytics ruin more than just art!

[@mason.berlin]

So good. Thx for bringing my attention to cj the x. What a great conversation!

[@BaddeBadger]

I think making art in any fashion is reflective of the zeitgeist in which it is made. Even if it isn't mainstream or agrees with the zeitgeist, it's clear that cj understands dialectics, any and all art made is a snapshot of the human experience as part of a whole. Great video! Im hooked, keep up the good work

[@leedelysid5270]

Honestly the most shocking combo but works really good. Been following both of yall for a long time, couldn't've imagined this crossover!

[@creativeculturepod]

Haha thank you! 😊

[@capobvious]

I need more interviews with cj in this world!! Thank you for interviewing him and giving the world this gift of an discussion on art! ❤

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you! I loved this interview so much. We'll definitely do it again!

[@vaehtay]

I SQUEALED… CJ THE X !!

[@coolegg8489]

Oh absolutely

[@shepalderson]

What a wonderful episode to wake up and find! So looking forward to this!

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you! Hope you enjoy it. 😊

[@mitchellburr7825]

This man is a very patient interviewer

[@peppermintea420]

As a history buff I make art for whoever will see/read/hear it after I'm dead

[@TinaVon]

This is mostly how i feel tho i dont make much art at all, well atm, this vid def inspired me to try the things ive had on my mind awhile but i guess was too scared to do

[@zandariko1942]

I dance a lot on my own and depending on the circumstance I can be doing it as a game, purely for enjoying the shapes I can make with my body and the fun of moving around absurdly, but I imagine "Bach is my audience" in this case, as there is an interaction with culture. I can be trying to make something beautiful, with the intent to aesthetically enjoy what I make and in this sense I am my audience or the future audience I will show the new moves to are watching from my consciousness. But the 3rd way is different. It's subconscious motion that happens when I think deeply of something else. I can either be trying to resolve an inner conflict or it even happens when I study physics, there is a surge I my body and without thinking I stand up and move around without registering what my body does. This is the purest form of "art as a release" to me, not even I know what I did afterwards. Usually my mind comes to a conclusion on the problem I processed and I find myself in the 1st scenario, becoming progressively aware of my body.

[@arabellasartworks]

such a beautiful and profoundly insightful conversation!

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you!

[@Enjoyurble]

What I find interesting is that Cj The Ex is actually far closer to MrBeast than he thinks in that much like JImmy is obsessed with being the best version of what he sees a true KZbinr to be, Cj is obsessed with what a true artist should be. He constantly uses his own set of internal analytics (authenticity, etc) to define whether someone is an artist or is making true art. He's made references that someone isn't an artist if they're not sharing their art, which is in my opinion ridiculous, and that someone whose goal is to maximize profit isn't creating art, which is also wrong. Considering the high number of writers, musicians, filmmakers and painters who created their work under some sort of payment along with the direction of producers, publishers, studios, editors, and financers either requesting changes or flat out asking them to create a certain type of art, it's ridiculous to say that anyone under that circumstance isn't a true artist creating art. Is the Sistine Chapel not art because Michaelangelo was being directed by the church? Are Poe's works not art because he was attempting to make a steady income? His argument is worse in that he also says once art is out in the world it belongs far more to the audience than the artist, anyway. He talks about audiences being betrayed if it turns out that the artist was disingenuous, but ignores that tons of people don't care about the artist in the first place as long as they enjoy the art. If, at its core, art belongs to the audience once it's put into the world , then the origins for how it came to be, whether motivated by money or some set of morals, should barely even factor into whether or not it's defined as art. Like, I completely agree that for the most part MrBeast's videos shouldn't be considered art, as they fall far more under the umbrella of pure entertainment, but by the same token CJ's shouldn't be considered art, because they fall far more under the umbrella of criticism, theory, and philosophy.

[@kelechi_77]

CJ never said making money from art doesn't mean you're not an artist, your goal being to maximize and accumulate wealth and capital is what stops you from being an artist. Because by those standards people making AI content farms are artists and not just trendhoppers just trying to hop on whatever they think can make them a quick buck. There are a lot of respected artists who made millions and cared a lot about the money they were making, but making that the end all be all goal is what makes it soulless and disqualifies them from being true artists

[@bridgerparker4275]

Awesome conversation, very inspiring. Can't wait to check out more. This is the first of your videos that I have seen, do you have any episodes that speak on retaining energy/discipline/motivation to pursue creative efforts while doing something else for your living?

[@iantophernicus6042]

Can art be objectively bad? I mean, compare Cocomelon to Bluey. I like Bluey.

[@kylleaiden8005]

Cj touched on it a little but objectively bad art is art that fails to achieve what it set out to do. Under that cocomelon isnt bad art unfortunately 😞

[@Noah-lo9vb]

Whoa. This was a magnificent experience.

[@HipNerd]

One of your best episodes so far. 9/10 😉

[@creativeculturepod]

Thank you. This was one of my favorite conversations on the podcast.

[@NoTengoIdeaGuey]

Lol, Steve from that massive Woodworking channel interviewing CJ the X is not the collab I expected in a million years. Awesome.

[@TheMasterChifu]

21:39 Trust and Sincerity in Art - C T Nguyen

[@SoVidushi]

cj's website is SO COOL

[@creativeculturepod]

YES! The essays are must-reads! 😀

[@chicoamorim429]

Second time watching and just realized that when CJ makes the distinction between "what is art saying" and "how is it saying it", on the topic of art as a language, that is kinda lime precisely the definition of art rejected in 'the dead poets society', the page they rip out of the book. Just once again realising that the missreadings of that movie have had a massive detrimental effect on culture.

[@creativejargons]

Love this discussion

[@faeriesnstardust4306]

So so so grateful for this collab.

[@yennikarual]

cj the x seems like the human equivalent of the opposite of brainrot

[@Juli-bm7yl]

that’s actually the most accurate description i’ve ever heard of him

[@baxterjaye3984]

brain fertilizer

[@BS-bv5sh]

I enjoyed this thoughtful conversation

[@creativeculturepod]

Thanks! I appreciate you watching. 🙂

[@4kirb]

Epic

[@zeldaguy32]

The part about how people rush to perform the things they think to some hypothetical audience hit home. We seek to monetize or gain status from ourselves so much and we all need at least some time to turn off that part and simply float down the river and smile at being.

[@margareeta1369]

The music is too loud in the beginning I really enjoyed this, thank you

[@miedan21]

#randomthought A galvanizing moment in the world of sincerity for me, was the day gave money (as I'd often do despite really having none) to a person asking for money on the corner of the street, and realizing my act of charity meant nothing to them. I learned that I was only giving to give myself a story and they were only receiving to continue to receive without thought or consideration to who was giving. There's more here to connect better with the discussion but it's hard to express with thumbs on my phone while pausing the video around 41:31

[@lexlinkroy]

Is art objective? If yes. Can we tell AI to ONLY make objectivly good art?

[@iantophernicus6042]

If we do, will we get something with 10 fingers or less?

[@DaxDives]

is that THE steve ramsey and THE cj THE x on MY recommended feed?

[@creativeculturepod]

We made this just for you! I was wondering when you'd show up 😂

[@DaxDives]

@@creativeculturepod much respect Steve 🫶🏻

[@pewpewindustries2657]

noise filter plz kthx

[@bartoszulkowskitattoo]

Yes. Postmodernistyczne art is objectively shit. ❤

[@tundranone8366]

2:00 Since you talked about your favorite CJ videos and my favorite didn't come up, I'd like to add it: it's No Face is an Incel for me lmao. And I LOVE No Face. But that take was so fresh and so insightful and made me go "Huh. Why didn't I see that" while also laughing my butt off because CJ's comedy is next level. 🤎

[@pi3.1415-y]

Where is the 4h video essay?🥹