Can boycotts really work to cancel famous figures? - ‘I’m hoping not!’ | John Cleese

‘I don’t think a boycott can really work.’
‘I’m hoping it doesn’t because I’m thinking of the adaptation I’m doing of Life of Brian!’
Helen Pluckrose tells John Cleese why boycotting famous figures for their opinions doesn’t necessarily work.
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[@peakexperience]

Excellent conversation. Helen is succinct and to the point as usual. I particularly liked her comment about workery being intrinsically anti working class. Good questions from John Cleese .

[@evanburrows1697]

"Wokism" is often described as "extreme left" but I've come to the think of it as the "fake left" - an imposter designed to usurp that role and energy, and intentionally achieve nothing. Every minute "the left" talks about transies and drag queens is a minute they lost talking about class issues and wealth distribution. I wonder which topic the corporations would prefer was being discussed...

[@Donna_Relaxing]

Finally a real understanding of what woke is.... I had no idea. THIS is the best and quickest summary of what it is.

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

Read Helen’s book “Cynical Theories”. It’s the best concise summary of this confusing and complex topic.

[@helenablavatsky9136]

Oh, Helen is wonderful. So is that kitty!

[@danelcutler6467]

John Clees, you’re a national treasure

[@Przykominku]

Imperial too :)

[@joanr3189]

Helen Pluckrose knows whereof she speaks. Should be shown in classrooms.

[@fraserbailey6347]

That won't happen because all the teachers are woke, along with the entire educational infrastructure.

[@fanfeck2844]

She’s brilliant

[@RobwLPOC]

Helen alongside James Lindsay and Peter Boghossian pulled off one of the greatest academics hoaxes of all time. They wrote Preposterous nonsense and sent it into various has they called them grievance study well respected peer-reviewed academic journals. They even got a feminist journal to print a paper called my struggle is our struggle which was a rewriting of chapter 13 of Hitler's mein kampf. They simply changed you to straight white male and instead of Nazi party or our movement wrote intersectional feminism. They then added a whole bunch of problematic and privilege references and actually got Hitler's ideas published and loved in a feminist magazine as it was disguised as feminist Theory LOL

[@MichaelJirochVisualArtist]

Excuse me for being a white westerner, but this is plain and simple fascism.

[@nickbarber2080]

Helen has a clarity of thought and expression which is refreshing in an age of obfuscation.

[@benbunyip]

A rarely honest and thorough thinker.

[@peterford5408]

​@@benbunyipI think of her more as "exceptionally honest" than as "rarely honest" 😅

[@benbunyip]

@@peterford5408 Yeah, poorly expressed by me. I meant “rarely” as in unusually.

[@peterford5408]

@@benbunyip A likely story! I hope Helen tuts at you loudly for this offence, or feeds you to her boa constrictor! But seriously, it's an interesting (and worrying) subtlety of English. The words 'rare' and 'unusual' seem like synonyms, yet seem to convey opposite meanings in this context!

[@benbunyip]

@@peterford5408 As you pointed out, my sentence sounded like “Pluckrose is rarely honest” when I meant to say, “Pluckrose is one of those rare people who are honest.” I guess unusual can mean “odd” in some way. I guess we can agree that we need honest people. For me a good sign that someone is honest is if they can willingly change their opinion if they are found to be wrong on something.

[@fromchomleystreet]

The damage done by cancel culture goes far beyond those actually cancelled. The real damage is in the widespread chilling of speech that occurs when others are shown what happens to those who commit wrongthink.

[@MrDavidht]

Very interesting. I have thought for quite some time that no political party in the UK represents working people anymore.

[@raevj]

Your very new Reform Party

[@rollingthunder3393]

As Helen was laying out of the facts of wokery, George Orwell's 1984 kept leaping into my mind.

[@chris9650]

You ever read the book or just jumped onto the bandwagon of mentioning it. Much better books out there about how the world would be taken over.

[@SuperFranzs]

@@chris9650 Yeah, it's called a newspaper.

[@antlerr]

@@chris9650 really then prove it like what book is better, being nice you claimed many so I beg you tell me just one better then 1984? only I think of is Brave new world and that is merely a copy you could say of 1984 based in a different age (written after 1984 was though) or did you mean Animal farm and how the pigs become the very "human" they claim is a problem, and walk on two legs...... or "soylent green" (made into a film) about how the government feeds humanity dead humans and keeps it hiden all to keep people in control?

[@amyskull7543]

@@chris9650 i read the book. I think Brave new World is more what we are living in now. However I believe people keep mentioning 1984 because some of the language in the book has actually seeped into regular language today. Considering both books were probably written as cautionary tales that can be pretty jarring.

[@chris9650]

@@amyskull7543 I've never read Fahrenheit 451 but that concept seems to be slipping in more with Huxley's view in brave new world.

[@haydenwalton2766]

any ideology that has a built-in denial of dialogue is 'problematic'

[@thomasanders1314]

At some point, working people will say enough is enough.:)

[@fanfeck2844]

@@BDub2024same thing with Brexit

[@carmenmccauley585]

So glad to have this explained. Thanx John for bringing her on.

[@surfDaddy]

Yes, Helen Pluckrose wrote a book 2 years ago with Janes Lindsay about the critical theories which she aptly title Cynical Theories. It was an academic and important book, but she issued another book which make the subject more accessible for the non-academic (might be better for some of us). But I think her interview here was superb. She perfectly summarizes the position of the SJW Left who can't get over the fact that in any society which wants to progress, and where there is a diversity of views, discussion and argument are not an optional extra. Unless one is Xi Jing Ping, Putin, or (dear leader) Kim. Did these woke-inclined people never read Orwell or John Stuart Mill for that matter? The SJW ear and brain appear to be full of air - sound and light travels through and out without the slightest event of substantial thought. The dangers of this dark and deceptive movement are clear. Children should not be taught critical theories such a Critical Race Theory. Most academics view it as highly un-tested and subjective nonsense, based on feelings and 'lived experience'. The following interview on this or another programme with Professor Peter Boghossian was equally instructive - where Peter exposes the REAL meaning of Diversity and Inclusion, and how the concept of Equity is a preferred one in the Land of the Woke to that of Equality. That interview will shock many of us. It did me, and I have a life in large company where these things are presented as marvelous and good for all. My eyes are now more open.

[@jyyyb]

Don’t think just obey

[@chrisBaxter-ly8or]

Followed Pluckrose for a while - wish there were more like her

[@kenricnarbrough8191]

Pluckrose is an absolute legend. I've had the pleasure of following her work since the Evergreen Debacle, so good to see her on the telly.

[@jyyyb]

It’s because their dogma doesn’t stand up to the most basic of critique

[@juliaogara8794]

Never heard of this lady but after this conversation I shall certainly be broading my knowledge. Many thanks to you both.

[@benbunyip]

Helen is thorough. Has a command of the concepts and is honest. A born teacher.

[@kenhorlor5674]

What a very dangerous ideology.

[@Shanny_island_life]

Wokeness is about being nice lol … ya right

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

Pol Pot was the nicest chap in Asia.

[@valerianmandrake]

It's as nice as those "mean girls" in high school.

[@heathermcdougall8023]

"re-train your minds" she says, I'm terrified already.

[@azsawild8231]

You don't change who you are to please the minorities that's sickening

[@erezklein5769]

And never ask someone else to change for you.

[@antlerr]

@@erezklein5769 so your saying to pasture the woke has to go ok good were on same page there they get one last chance to live in reality then out to pasture for shammooooo and karens!

[@erezklein5769]

@@antlerr Far from a last chance

[@infinitestare]

Helen has such composure and command of self it's marvellous. I've watched her before and she did not disappoint this time. Very enjoyable fragment. I also feel like John Cleese was getting overwhelmed by the ideology, having nothing to reply really to the actual woke talking points. I feel that way sometimes when I hear a particular new argument from their side, from a purely intellectual theoretical standpoint. The only thing that can beat this intellectual construct is actual life experience, actual truth and righteous action.

[@brotherelf]

The corporations go along with and encourage it so people dont fixate on the human rights abuses they perpetrate in other countries.(nike hires colin capernick to escape criticism for useing child labour;etc)

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

The Book “Woke, Inc” supports that notion.

[@antlerr]

so you don't ever pick up a dictionary and actually learn what words mean, or keep you from education keeping you dumb, deaf and blind moldable obediant slaves!

[@isander1]

Thank God for Helen 👍

[@bovinicide]

In my mind, Helen is a legend and just the right kind of figurehead to persuade people who are unsure about what the f**K critical social justice/wokery is

[@stu7803]

This is the clearest explanation I have heard, thank you for a fine show.

[@fraserbailey6347]

A woking class hero is something to be.

[@PhilosopherX17]

These conversations are wonderful, exactly how people need to be discussing issues. Bring this to the USA lol, desperately in need here!

[@allenrhys844]

Never have so few made life so miserable for so many with so little reason.

[@niceuneasy]

Lol love JC bang on the money as always 😎👍

[@jeffclement2468]

I've just found my new favorite chat show. And Saint John has never looked or sounded better! 😻❤🐈

[@maryannebrown2385]

Brits and their hats are everything. As I listen to Helen I cannot take my eyes of her tiny hat. The confidence with which she wears it is something I can only aspire to have. When I visit England I am going to visit every, single hat shop in the land.

[@antlerr]

*French hat not a brittish one, you should go to france if you like the tiny hat otherwise you are a moron going to the wrong place ignorant to what you even want!

[@radicalcartoons2766]

I love the little kitty wandering around ❤

[@jeffclement2468]

Mr. Cleese has always been cat-mad! That tells me a lot about him. 😻

[@saltchuckwest]

Love ❤ Helen's massive intellect. And the cats are sheer brilliance.

[@KevinArdala01]

Her book with James Lindsey was an eye-opener. Highly recommend. And any of James' books too!

[@jellokween1680]

Very Interesting.

[@AndyJarman]

Helen, the hat! Brilliant. Very Lewis Carol.

[@judyharper1742]

Just a thought, quite on target, this young Lady seems to have brought her homework to the table. I am very happy to see discussion, debate, understanding, whether you agree or not, this is absolutely a positive conversation. Thank You both.

[@Pneumanon]

She’s done more than bring her homework, she’s one of the leading experts on the topic.

[@thalesofmiletus2966]

Bollox. They can't argue because they dont understand enough to argue.

[@1300zagato]

Amazing lady

[@fromchomleystreet]

Any hypothetical adaptation of Life of Brian would have to drop the whole Stan/Loretta subplot if it was to have any hope of attracting corporate financing.

[@stefanaltenburger4651]

Short and clear. Brilliant again.

[@TitouFromMars]

What I like about Helen is that she fights the woke without renouncing her left-wing idea (like many others). In a world where everything the right doesn't like is "woke" (just as everything the left doesn't like is "faschist" ...), her critique of wokism from a left-wing standpoint is invaluable.

[@infinitestare]

awesome show, great job

[@grantbaker371]

This explains very well the insanity. But why are some people so afflicted by this brain disease.

[@raevj]

It is a Globalist agenda funded by millions & millions of $$$

[@peterkoch3777]

These people were never told "NO"😢

[@joannaennis7866]

I would be interested to see how woke advocates would fare amongst the islamists ranting in English Cities recently?

[@nickworley1000]

What a scary prospect

[@mrinteresting6072]

THE REASON THEY WON'T SPEAK TO YOU IS BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO SMART TO FALL FOR THEIR BULLSHIT AND ARE ABLE TO RESPOND TO THEM IN A WAY THAT THEY, IN TURN, WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COUNTER.

[@davidnorman6348]

Don't lean to close, John - she ate her last opponent!

[@Manooshen]

Finally someone who explains why wokeism isn’t leftist.

[@davidmorrison2739]

Long live anti-wokery!

[@Kemotherapy360]

"Are you going to be problematic again?" XD Brilliant!

[@zephodb]

Hey, love these talks... is there any way to specifically subscribe to just the John Cleese segments? >.

[@MercenaryTau]

Reminds me of a 3yr old who stomps around and screams when things don't go their way.

[@ymynymasa]

How John could keep a straight face most of the time is beyond comprehension 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@peterkoch3777]

Of course he can stay serious! He invented the joke!😂❤

[@Chardonbois]

Fascinating discussion charting the shift of 'Wokeness' from the left wing to the far right!

[@masterchinese28]

I have family members who insist that if/when you read the scriptures, you will come to same conclusions that they have. This woke approach that we all have come to the same conclusions has an eerily similar dogmatic feel.

[@nigel.w]

So, you can't criticize or debate anything approved of because by doing so you talk against and diminish its existence, but criticizing and actually calling for Israel to cease to exist is okay...presumably because it's a Western colonial state -- even though it's neither Western nor colonial, and is in fact engaged in a protracted process of decolonization. I totally understand that it is establishing the framework for the rapidly increasing totalitarian colonization of the West under the pretextual guise of being anti-fascist and post-colonial. Moreover, being Woke/awakened is actually a process of de-/un-awakening; claiming to be a critical process, allowing criticism of anything not approved of, but absolutely not allowing critical thought or process of any kind whatsoever with regard to anything approved of.

[@Daywalker222]

2:15 🤣

[@johnwoods7650]

Why is KZbin censoring comments? Who owns KZbin?

[@raevj]

Facist Google aka Alphabet

[@clkbateman]

"O'Sullivan's law" should have been a talking piece in the episode as well as woke

[@BertWald-wp9pz]

Double bind theory of Schizophrenia: what you say is not necessarily what you mean so if I think you are disingenuous your act of kindness is actually concealed manipulation and not necessarily done out of kindness. In reality we live in such a (Ed:world) however to presume it by default, as an idea that proceeds rather than is considered with other factors, will make a person behave in a crazy, often destructive way towards other people and rob us of the ability to distinguish between mutually beneficial relationships and ones that are counterproductive. We will default to a negative position which means we cannot falsify a hypothesis. Epistemology will be replaced by an ideology. We will see what we presume. We will pre-judge. We will become prejudiced and myopic and trapped in our own assumptions. The approach is powerful because it undermines reason itself. In a sense we live with real conspiracies and have to arm ourselves against them existing. The ultimate conspiracy might be one that assumes everything is a conspiracy. All such thinking cannot be separated from the notion of the idea. The idealist (as in Hegel) think the world as we know it is about ideas. For me the only remedy is an injection of empiricism as in testing against reality. This remedy is being denied us. However, as with schizophrenia this approach will result in dysfunctional relationships. I fear it ultimately leads to social disintegration, tribalism, oppression, violence.

[@ianfindlay3450]

Helen is fantastic - the Pete B and James L uni papers she wrote with them was hilarious! (and scary too)

[@sabbracadabra8367]

Obnoxious question, never heard of Enoch Powell? Or the many comedians who get cancelled and in some cases arrested.

[@hmsealey3243]

Cancel culture is actually very like racism - you don't realise it really exists until it affects you. I'm white, my best friend is mixed race, and she genuinely does face racism fairly frequently and its quite subtle. It's absolutely nothing I would ever see in my day to day life and yet, when I'm with her, it's clearly there. So I'm more than willing to say that there are layers to society to which some people are happily oblivious. It's the same with cancel culture. If it doesn't really affect you because your opinions all toe the line, you won't see it and you'll think those who have been affected by it are unduly moaning. To those it effects - it can destroy their lives. As they say, you only know you're in a prison when you try to leave. If you're content to stay in that prison of thought and never push the boundaries, you won't even realise those walls are there.

[@Wirefox1]

Girl from Ladbaby has let herself go a bit 😂

[@LG123ABC]

I like her little hat.

[@iainrae6159]

Its interesting that beautiful, cheerful, successful women often actually like men, of all skin pigmentations, refusing to play the 'victim' card.

[@stevev238]

I don't know about the rest of the Boycott family- but Geoffrey wouldn't do it!

[@jamiejones7325]

so open minded to allow others to shut down others minds is self defeating.

[@johnhall3827]

so if your not brainwashed you can not think but wait i think there for i am . you never get to an answerer in anything in life without thinking or discussing it .

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

Kitty!

[@adamski320]

Read cynical theories by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay; it’s a fantastic book

[@oh_rhythm]

Yeah yeah ok, but who is pushing this movement? Who are the lobbyists? Who's funding them?

[@Slarti]

Dear Helen, you are a lovely person and please find a way to lose some weight as we really need you around for a lot longer. I lost a lot of weight by going mostly carnivore and cutting out carbs. I really hope that what I said doesn't sound mean.

[@darinclark1853]

Is this where AI has brought us!?

[@nigelground283]

They do work , John Cleese being relegated to GBN is proof of that.

[@StillAliveAndKicking_]

Indeed. Have you seen current BBC comedy?

[@nigelground283]

Does John Cleese do comedy?@@StillAliveAndKicking_

[@StillAliveAndKicking_]

@@nigelground283 Is that a serious question? Are you really so ignorant?

[@nigelground283]

No, It's fucking sarcasm, Jesus Christ...@@StillAliveAndKicking_

[@BenWeeks-ca]

@@StillAliveAndKicking_ It is a question that itself is comedic. Irony being the method.

[@sobersportsman]

"they can't get us fired" ...that's why we elected Trump.

[@Dilkingt0nne]

Be brutally, brutally honest with yourself now. How many of you took one look and were surprised that this ladies position wasn’t itself far to the left?

[@KHKH-os6kt]

Holy cow, her thoughts contradicts them selves, interesting.

[@jamiejones7325]

Cleese and all we wish there were option to feminist biased censored KZbin to watch you.

[@alanbaxter8100]

Delusion Apparently

[@reidycruise]

Don’t fancy yours mate

[@valerianmandrake]

I'm afraid I'm too phatphobic to watch this. 😅

[@garyfrancis6193]

Looks like she ate the opposition.

[@daveberry2177]

how can you take this woman seriously . i am sorry but i am old school, to me this is a joke

[@troldhaugen]

I take her completely seriously based on my own experiences. I used to proudly call myself a woke social justice warrior because all my life I had been advocating for civil rights, gay marriage, etc. Then I collided with *actual* wokeness at my job and online. It was a rude awakening. Compare Helen's Cynical Theories with DiAngelo's White Fragility. Unless you reject tried and true epistemological methods based on evidence and logic, I think you will reassess Helen's position compared to DiAngelo's. DiAngelo says, "Individualism and objectivity are racist ideologies." She doesn't mean rugged self-reliant individualism or delusions of objectivity. She means thinking of people as individuals and using objective methods to determine truth.

[@benjaminperez969]

@daveberry2177, I was going to respond to you, but @troldhaugen did, & basically said what I was going to say; indeed, please read @troldhaugen's response to you, & please read Helen Pluckrose's book Cynical Theories (as well as read John McWhorter's book Woke Racism), please.

[@turbo.panther]

She is totally serious. She is not advocating for wokeness, she is explaining it.

[@infinitestare]

I feel like you've missed something on some level here definitely

[@daveberry2177]

@@infinitestare maybe im old

[@rollingthunder3393]

@chris9650 Yes, I read 1984 20 odd years ago and currently listening to it on audio books. Please name the other books.

[@navelpicker]

Unfortunately only came across this now. Faaaantastic! Thank you.