Can ELECTRICIANS fit equipment inside the DNO METER BOX? - EV Charger Installation UK

[@efixx]

🛑 EV installers - speed up your projects with kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHOqlGaLZZ5gbs0

[@_______DR_______]

Got a pair on Henley blocks and a switch-fuse in mine, if it prevents the supplier from being able to fit a smart meter then that's a bonus 😂

[@efixx]

🤣🤣🤣👍🏻

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Can you point to any supply contracts that explicitly specify that nothing else can go in the box? Unless it's there explicitly it's hard to see how they can deny a supply without being in breach of their contract.

[@efixx]

Here’s the response from one of the DNO’s - “ultimately NIE Networks position is where the minimum dimensions within an outdoor meter box are not reserved for our equipment, NIE Network may, and increasingly likely to disconnect the customer and issue a defect notice citing the Standard Connection T&C’s”

[@brendon-paul]

So what are the minimum dimensions. ?

[@efixx]

@@brendon-paul in the specification when you request a supply.

[@scabthecat]

@@efixx I guess replacing the board in a Revo box with a smaller switch fuse would not be allowed.

[@nickharris2177]

It's embossed in some of the meter box doors, " This space is reserved for Electricity Boards equipment only".

[@jamiebourne8047]

Good video. It really makes me question why I'm a spark with all of this nonsense. As other have mentioned-if the customer wants their consumer unit relocating >3m away from the meter where is the fused isolator meant to be sited? My gas supplier has installed additional equipment in my electric meter box to transmit my gas meter readings-is this allowed ?

[@raychambers3646]

Re your comment on becoming a spark I would think twice if starting again, but saying that ,house is only a tiny part of being in electrical industry.

[@djturbine7565]

Yes. These SMETS 2 meter upgrades and retrofits are modifications to what is still considered DNO equipment, even if only leased, and therefore come under the ownership of your utility provider on their behalf.

[@jamiebourne8047]

I'll also add-its ok fitting an IP rated enclosure on the outside wall but you've still got to enter the meter box and install Henley blocks therefore adding additional items taking up space?

[@raychambers3646]

@@jamiebourne8047 whatever you do someone is going to question it ,then for years I had no seals on my meter numerous meter readers came and went no comment was made and being a sparky this is normally a hanging offence!

[@JasperJanssen]

Makes more sense to me to just add a second meter cupboard, and only take the tails out to there. Then fit all your own stuff including Henley blocks in that one. *maybe* a main switch in with the meter, for ease of maintenance. If you’re okay with one of these boxes, how would 2 indentical ones be significantly more unsightly?

[@AndyK.1]

We would recommend !!!

[@BF1GUN]

Thanks for this video. I am about to have an EV charger installed, and it is only today that I realized the requirement to run a cable to the internal consumer unit. I did not know this is required and thought that everything is connected to the external meter box. The DNO says the meter box is owned by the customer, and that for safety reasons the charger should be connected to the consumer box, but is it actually illegal to house everything in the meter box? If it is not illegal, what's stopping someone doing it?

[@andycrosse4852]

Had a college called back to a meter cabinet where he had added a 2 way db. Was told it is either removed or they will disconnect the supply. I personally think it belongs to the customer and dno has no authority to disconnect you regarding this, there are no safety grounds. That said, what can you do, but do as they say.

[@iknowmyfootball3901]

The resident owns the Meter cabinet the DNO owns the space very simple but the best effective statement , they should send that all homeowners and electricians country wide

[@NaydenSpirdonov]

How you can legally own space in someone else house?

[@mistermartin82]

Could you add a second box next to the original, and use that to house a consumer unit ?

[@supersparks9466]

Yes

[@RustyRecovery]

So no CT and Harvi inside the box? I can appreciate an additional consumer unit but a CT?

[@jeffparker4490]

What is the IP rating on that second consumer unit outside ???

[@shaunpridden5806]

Situation Customer needs an EV Chargepoint, they live in a new build. Meter box is on external wall on the front of the property, Consumer Unit is under the stairs in the middle of the house. Glued chipboard floor, brand new carpets. Understandably Customer doesn’t want them lifting and an IP Consumer Unit would look ridiculous based on where the external box is.. Aside from the obvious being, don’t have a Chargepoint if you can’t be flexible, where do you go from there?

[@efixx]

Blame the builder for ignoring building regs on the position of the Consumer Unit for starters and the meter box will probably already be full as the long tails will need a switch fuse.

[@stuartcraigon2003]

5:21, its not their cabinet, its owned by the property owner. The DNO and meter owners are more often than not completely different companies. Sorry guys but a lot of very assertive nonsense in this video.

[@robertburrows6612]

As I see it , there are two solutions to the problem, the cabinets need to be 50% larger, or a second electrical cabinet fitted . The problem is get outside cables back to the CU without doing damage or where CUs fitted in the most awkward places such as under stairs or above kitchen wall cabinets , the sparks will take the easiest solution. most customer think you can magic cables into walls or under floors , the easy part is connecting the EV charger and doing the connection to CU but 75% or more of the time is spent installing the cable . With more EV chargers being installed both sides need to a rethink. Personal I'm thinking the answer is a dual cabinet with a partition , DNO side and consumer side

[@efixx]

Sounds like a sensible solution

[@stuartrhoades4306]

Many houses from the 60's and 70's have the main consumer unit in the meter box. I don't know of any that have had their electricity cut off because of it. Relocating them in some instances would not be straightforward, unless rewiring the property.

[@manyshnooks]

Totally agree.

[@davemcelin]

My house is exactly like this & the meter box backs on to a double skin of engineering block - this could be quite a fun exercise if my new smart meter doesn’t fit. It would probably have to be a rewire to relocate the consumer unit in my case.

[@MartynDews]

I came across this video and was thinking the same because this is how mine is setup. I have no meter box as such. Not outside. The meter is in a cupboard in the hallway next to the fuse and the CU. This is where the EV charger comes in via a trip switch. This is where the Harvi will also be going I expect. That being there's nowhere else for it to go.

[@MrImATarget]

For new builds maybe the makers of the meter boxes can come up with a design for a larger box with a divider in it to define DNO and consumer.

[@EISElectrical]

for new builds it is a planning requirement to have an EV charge point at the first place

[@philiprobertson2200]

If a customer doesn't want the hassle of the CU for EV going inside the house, could a second cabinet be fitted to the house, with a IP rate cu, with the Henley fed into this. Would this also allow the work around for the length of the meter tails??

[@curtismal1726]

Northen power grid allow you to install equipment inside the meter box - northernpowergrid.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/229

[@efixx]

Thanks 👍- NPG didn’t respond to our questions they bumped it to the ENA and hence the ‘recommend’ response. This will rumble on for a while more coming soon.

[@grahamb7947]

The one from ENA, I wouldn't ever read as a hard no, or even a polite no to be perfectly honest. For legal reasons, they can't be "polite" in their answers because politeness would cause confusion amongst most people. No, what it actually means is "We don't recommend it because it could cause damage to the equipment, or if we need to replace the meter down the line and we have to remove your custom equipment, any negative fallback from the fact you added your own equipment falls entirely on your own head". In a nutshell, telling the consumer they're responsible for the costs incurred by any damaged equipment needing to be replaced, or if down the line, a technician has to remove the EV charging port... tough luck for the EV owner. As an alternative, I'd suggest installing a second box, with a conduit running between the two. You can still piggyback off of the first unit, but this allows everything to run within designed parameters and leaves space for the meter company to actually change it out should they need to, without needing to remove anything.

[@robinpenny3193]

I have a consumer unit in my meter box that feeds my outbuildings, having heard this might by an issue/not allowed, I contacted my DNO (UK Power networks) by Email & asked the question. They replied & said it was fine...

[@pstanyer1]

yup I spoke directly with the electricians who fitted my consumer unit for the garage in the box and the DNO who were onsite, both agreed it was perfectly ok. However the DNO said that in future if they wished to installed a new bigger type of supply box and fuse to the house it was the owners responsibility to ensure it fitted within the box to their specifications. If your own equipment was in the way and prevented the install then you would have to pay for an electrician to remove your own equipment. I think this makes more sense than simply saying 'no'

[@9plusinstalaciones]

When we wereworking for Staffordshire County Council in the early 90's their electrical inspector always said if there's a board in the meter cupboard take it out and install it inside the dwelling.

[@beardedsparks2825]

Yep. DNO's have been saying that for years.

[@acelectricalsecurity]

This is nothing new to me, I started my apprenticeship in the late 80's, and when the DNO was called manweb, every meter box had in bold black text manweb equipment only, and that's what I have always gone to

[@efixx]

We believe the same

[@artisanelectrics]

FANTASTIC video guys thanks for the research you have put into this, it’s great to finally have some clarity and clear direction for all!

[@efixx]

So you can stop putting consumer units in meter boxes now 👍🏻… saw you installing one in one of your videos… once one person puts it online everyone thinks it ok to do so… will you be going back to that install…? will you be going back to the EV charger(s) you left without RCD protection….

[@efixx]

Let’s see - We think this will rumble on for a while.

[@heladas90]

@@efixx oooo spicey

[@heladas90]

@@efixx which video are you referring to?

[@easayas123]

*eats popcorn*🍿

[@sidwainhouse]

There's provision within the box for an isolator to be installed, what we need is a manufacturer to design a main switch which incorporates an isolator, OCPD and 25mm tails outlets for two supplies. So you could have one way for the main CU and another protected way for the EV or additional CU such as a garage unit. Also DNOs/suppliers need to be a little more flexible when installing new supplies, how many meters boxes have you seen that look like the kit was just thrown in on a Friday afternoon with no scope for additions such as isolators.

[@efixx]

An area crying out for innovation

[@timearp8185]

@@efixx an area efixx could do a(nother?) video on?!

[@ianhannant4353]

I find these videos really interesting and informative. But playing devils advocate. The answer from the ena is very carefully worded. They did not say NO!, They made it clear the meter cabinet belongs to the customer. (So the DNO does not become responsible for replacing broken doors and hinges) They say the space is design for Electricity Industry Apparatus only, well we are all in the electricity industry and so is all the equipment in question. (I.E No gas meters). Then goes on to quote for "Safety Reasons" which is undefined. One might assume extra thermal heat, but this should be negatable unless something is wrong. Then uses the term "we would not recommend" Not "Must Not" or "Should Not", Just recommend. The term Internal wiring is then used, I would propose the use of Henley Blocks, additional tails a Metal or Plastic box containing an Isolator and or Fuse, MCD, RCD, etc and then likely connection to SWA cable is not internal wiring (Like T&E or Flex) and is all electrical industry apparatus. At no point was any issues raised about real estate with in the cabinet, which is likely to be the only real concern IMO. It does open a minefield if a fire was to break out inside the box. Given the number of CU's for EV and Solar I find in MB's. If the DNO don't like it, then they need to get together with the ena and iet and engineer a solution or define a MB real-estate plan. But it is likely it will take them 10 years to agree on something!. Until the, Keep calm and carry on.

[@Mike_5]

The DNO owns the supply cutout intake board and permits only the designated Metering Supply company to attach equipment (if it is a Metered supply). Western Power make this very clear in their downloadable PDF documentation.

[@totherarf]

The information I have on this (and I work for a DNO) is that whilst the consumer owns the board they can't do anything with it. The Suppliers can obviously fit their meters and associated equipment. The only thing the consumer can have fitted is a 100A DP isolation switch and if needed meter blocks. Would we do anything when we encounter a discrepancy? .... Doubtful, but the question you need to ask yourself is, Do I feel lucky?

[@dannymort7262]

Could create a problem for consumer tails in an external meter box >2-3 meters supplying a db within the dwelling

[@christopherkelly7321]

My thoughts exactly.

[@pstanyer1]

Interesting I've just bought a brand new house, just built. Which an identical boards and cabinet to the one you showed. Mine has a cut out fitted within the box and a small fusebox feeding the power to the garage. I've checked with the electrician's on site who stated that although not recommended you can do this perfectly legally. But if the dno wanted to add extra equipment themselves then you the customer would be responsible for making room in the cabinet ie removing your extra equipment to make room for their new stuff. I suspect they are stating their wishes rather than an actual regulation 'must not' was not used

[@englandcal]

finally 👏 somebody has been brave enough to finally come out and tell everybody the truth regard the meterbox situation

[@efixx]

If we get questions we try to find the answer. #bettertogether

[@efixx]

@@Woodkin007 It’s called journalism - perhaps we’ll pass the gauntlet over to you Matt and see how much time you have to invest in order to retire on KZbin ad revenue.

[@UberAlphaSirus]

@@Woodkin007 No! these are bloody good questions to ask. We all wanna know where we stand, not just guessing what the fuck they mean with a 2000 word essay leaving you grey in an answer and grey in hairs.

[@pstanyer1]

Im still not convinced that 'No' is the actual answer.

[@darylsavage119]

Personally I think best option would be to install another meter enclosure box beside the current one and use it to mount your equipment needed for EVSE equipment. Here in northern ireland most new builds I'm coming across have the CU on the 1st floor in the hot press in middle of the house, not at all practical to get an additional cable to.

[@johnburns4017]

What is a _hot press?_

[@darylsavage119]

@@johnburns4017 erm, the small cupboard like space your hot water tank would have usually resided in, along with all your towels and bed linen?

[@keoghrichard1988]

An airing cupboard

[@18in80]

Press is an Irish name for a cupboard used north and south. Hot press is what English call airing cupboard.

[@Dog-whisperer7494]

Why not just fit a second meter box and label it as CU for EV Everyone happy then ? Great video as always guy’s ⚡️👍👍👍❤️ just go’s to show we Don’t know as much as we think we do. I get a ❤️ for this comment but nothing for my comment on the video about SPDs ? You must be thinking I wish sean would be quite. 😂 maybe it time for me to keep my mouth shut and just enjoy the video .😂

[@Blackf1ngers]

I recently installed one at a new build where they had just that. The meter tails ran through this box with a set of Henleys already installed. Nice little job, took a couple of leisurely hours to install a Zappi.

[@benbouchere6017]

You’ve used one of my pictures in there. It was for 2 x AC units not an EVCP but obviously that doesn’t make a difference. I use the smallest 2 way DB available for EV chargers and usually it fits in nicely. Putting an IP rated box on the outside and Henley blocks on the inside doesn’t make much difference as far as I can see.

[@MrSimonb45]

What if the meter board is rotten and needs replacing, or if the supplier needs to install a check meter? You have prevented both.

[@artisanelectrics]

Brilliant subject this video has been needed for quite some time.

[@capactiveresistance314]

Here in South Africa we have a great system. The meter box will normally sit on the edge of the property line. Because most houses are walled and fenced off from the outside world. So the muncipal services will still have access to the box for upgrades. And everything behind the box ie past the wall is your resposibility. They lock it and the supply is passed to a seperate box on the exterior of the house. Which is then passed to the consumer unit. So the problem doesnt exist here

[@asp217]

I always fit 100A service blocks and then an IP56 CU external to the meter box

[@efixx]

Wise man 👨

[@paulharrison2325]

Just being Devil’s advocate - isn’t that still adding something into meter the box? I have as you describe - a Henley block inside feeding into an exterior CU. However, strictly I am not sure it’s anymore compliant.

[@asp217]

@@paulharrison2325 Good point but as long as they can fit their smart meters inside easy enough I doubt any complaint will come of it. Henleys don't take up much space where as a fused isolator etc can be quite big

[@paulharrison2325]

@@asp217 I agree - as I say, just being awkward in making that point. It seems like a sensible compromise. If we are really moving to an EV future then various concessions will need to be found.

[@webzterd]

Interesting concept. I don't have an meter box, it is housed inside, beside my CU, solar isolation switch & meter etc. etc. and the DNO has zero say on whether I can put additional equipment there or not. It's my under stair cupboard. The guidelines originally quoted also state "do not recommend" which is a different phrase from "you are not permitted." I think the DNO is simply power tripping over the status of the external housing box and know that if they want to just turn up and do something, it can complicate that job and/or result in it being delayed from completion. I believe this is behind their responses to your enquiry. Ways around it? Are there smaller meter boxes, that could effectively allow you to split the original area into two? Average standard is 595mm tall and blow me away, you can buy them 300mm tall. Once again, this is the DNO on a total power trip, because what else can you do?

[@Tammas]

But it's sometimes necessary to change cutouts in customers' premises and this is still often done live. If a jointer's faced with a situation where cables/equipment make this more dangerous it could mean your garden being dug up to isolate as it wouldn't be fair to lift network fuses and put streets off supply.

[@seprishere]

@@Tammas Hence "do not recommend", i.e. you can but it's at your own risk of something like this happening?

[@Tammas]

@@seprishere For sure Simon, but workers do have a right to risk assess when working on live apparatus. And neighbours also have a reasonable expectation that their power isn't disconnected. So, your garden will be dug up - whether you like it or not - under statutory powers of access. The most you can do is not allow restoration of your own supply...and if that's your attitude, hard lines. 🙂

[@garethevans2185]

Interesting video. As a consumer and given this video was a year ago - my new solar PV has done exactly this, and i suspect thousands more on a weekly basis. The Henley block ( which i think is allowed from reading) and a small consumer unit for the Inverters i have in the loft. There was space in the CU for 2 extra circuits however i can see that would have been a complete PITA to wire back to that (plus zero room for CT clamps) and the job was fixed price under the "solar together" scheme that many councils promote. Would be interesting who is liable to pay for movement if it ever came to that ? Also this maybe just the terms that the trade uses but "not recommended" is very different to "forbidden", too ambiguous imho, but then that may just be the terminology in the trade.

[@efixx]

Great info thanks 🙏

[@roberthuntley1090]

Same for my Solar PV system installed in 2015 - as well as the Henley block they added the solar PV meter, and a couple of current transformer based monitors (a measuring system + a wireless feed to the solar PV diverter in the airing cupboard). When the mains supply meter was swapped for a smart meter approx. 18 months ago no concerns were expressed about this use of the meter cabinet.

[@jeffcartwright7270]

I am no spark, but this does sounds a little crazy to me. Please tell me what you think. So, you can't fix another smaller additional C.U. unit inside the meter box to supply your EV wall box, because the DNO does not want you to use "Their" space within YOUR box ?. But, in the case of our house, built in 1982 our electric metering device & C.U. etc is mounted on a chipboard backer board, it was supplied and installed on the internal wall of our integral garage, by the DNO ( Manweb ) themselves way back in 1982. Then this would be just fine, because it has no "box" surrounding the equipment then ?. Interesting though, that when my EV installer fitted my wall box, he needed to split the tails ( Henley blocks ) and run new tails, to a new small stand alone small C.U. unit. He installed the new C.U. on the wall NEXT to the original backer board and said he did not want to infringe on what COULD be become contentious issue with regards to the DNO's regs. Did he already know something then ?????.

[@efixx]

Before the meter box came along most serious sparks would never mount any equipment on the “meter board” mounted in the garage or under the stairs.

[@jeffcartwright7270]

@@efixx Maybe he was following along this path then !. The approx 2ft meter backing board, only the C.U. / the now "Smart Meter" the DNO main fuse head and cartridge and a addition 100Amp double pole isolation switch, that was installed at the time of the upgrade and the Henley blocks. The smaller stand alone C.U. that powers the wall box, sits to the side of the backer board and is secured directly to the internal wall of the garage. I do agree with others, who have said :- "If you ask the question, then the answer is very likely going to be a clear - NO".

[@paullyons4624]

I’m fairly sure that Paul Meenan shared a document on social media showing a breakdown of the meter box and what goes where, the document showed the top right corner as customers space.

[@efixx]

Page 11 here 👉 www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/asset/5fef85a5-c01f-4322-bc62-37a4dbf4fd3b/getting+connected+guide.pdf

[@brendon-paul]

S o this is the same document we have been working to as well. Dose that mean the UKPN guide is wrong.

[@efixx]

It probably predates the move to EV - the DNOs need to give clear guidance on this matter. It’s only going to get worse when heat pumps etc follow on. Hopefully this video will motivate the discussion.

[@effervescence5664]

@@efixx The DNO's don't even agree on whether to let sparks disconnect the main cut out to safely work on an installation. Which is why I stated the UKPN isn't wrong it is just their guidelines for their respective areas. Western/ UKPN and S&S have given me completely different answers on the same question over the same type of supply and switch fuses in cabs. Zero consistency from personal experience dealing with the three and that's where in lies the issue, they will tell you at Efixx one thing but on an engineer level they'll give different answers if you call about an installation and submit photos.

[@UberAlphaSirus]

@@efixx To be fair, heat pumps are not massive loads, thats the whole point.

[@paulmerchant9015]

take it that this only applies to external meter boxes, what if you have an older style internal meter box with a skeleton board inside it ?

[@beardedsparks2825]

Good luck fitting anything additional in there, lol

[@paulmerchant9015]

@@beardedsparks2825 exactly but the whole point of the video is that it's supposed to be for DNO and supply authority stuff yet there's a skeleton board in the internal ones so wouldn't that be the same problem ?

[@nigelwillson8000]

Need space for check meter to be installed if customer queries meter . Trust me I used to work for EEB.

[@ptemogs]

Been looking into this a lot recently as I need somewhere to install another isolator for PV. The key word is 'recommend' not 'can't' or forbidden, or "mustn't' or any other word that says you cannot, all you must leave is space for their equipment or the ability to move yours if required, after all, the meter box now belongs to the end user. Opening our meter box and what's in there is obviously the DNO fuse and meter, NO DNO fitted isolator, then straight into the wall behind and above for the CU. Before this though the meter tails go into a wylex fused switch (a large unit that is bigger than it needs to be!) That feeds an onsite holiday cottage, the feed for the cottage comes out the bottom of the switch as expected, and our tails for the house are also in the top of the switch so the cottage is able to be isolated, but not the house. My plan was to get the DNO to fit an isolator, and/or I was going to get the sparky to fit the isolator and then a separate CU with 3x 100A isolators, 1 for the house, 1 for the cottage and one for the PV along with an RCD/RCBO for the PV, all within the same space, dimensions of this would be smaller than the existing switch fitted. However, almost two years ago sparky had to pull the DNO fuse to fit a new CU in the house as we had no response from them at all ref fitting an isolator.

[@efixx]

Your energy supplier is responsible for arranging disconnects and installing isolators. The electrician should have asked you to arrange this, as they usually won’t talk to the electrician. The situation is a mess but is due to change mid 2023 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKKxgp9uaJtofrc

[@davidsharp9166]

Slightly off subject but I've seen people keeping paint brush cleaners in the meter box.

[@brendon-paul]

I think It would be helpful if a copy of the responses could be made available for us to read in full.

[@richardoliver4904]

in my view the energy network were only providing a safety view with no legal substance. Whilst the various network and supply authorities own the equipment, they do not own the space. However, they can create conditions of supply ie the provision of a suitable space to safely house their equipment, but does not include the use of the surrounding space, except to the extent it does not compromise their equipment. In my view a space safely linked to the outside ambient temperature, unless affected by a direct heat source, is generally a preferred.

[@pstanyer1]

correct no legal substance at all. The dno installers told me exactly the same when I asked them. they said you can install anything you want in the box. But at some future point if the DNO needed to change the equipment in the box and their wasnt enough room left you would have to make room for them. So if they needed to install a new meter which was bigger than the old one then it wasnt their fault if they didnt have enough room. and if you needed it doing urgently they were quite within their right to disconnect their equipment. But as the DNO installer said its your box not theirs.

[@alexwilliams9836]

They were always going to say " No " if you asked them. Do Turkeys vote for Christmas ? And that reply to me reads " We can't force you not to but we'd rather you didn't "

[@efixx]

The ENA response was muted however the DNOs which responded directly were more to the point. “ultimately NIE Networks position is where the minimum dimensions within an outdoor meter box are not reserved for our equipment, NIE Network may, and increasingly likely to disconnect the customer and issue a defect notice citing the Standard Connection T&C’s”

[@samplumbe3288]

I have worked with numerous national house builders and various DNO's and the answer has always been really woolly some times we can put it in some times we can't. I have recently proposed a feeder pillar to two DNO's to house all the kit including main isolator and small CU to split the load to the house, Garage and EV charger and they have approved it. One even has a 3phase head but only supplying single phase. Way too many opinions and interpretations of the rules or policy within each DNO. Plastic Meter boxes on the side of a house are disgusting. Why the industry has not come up with a comprehensive unit that has the head, meter and isolator (with protection for longer tails) in one neat compact unit is beyond me and I suspect it is all because they are incapable of getting together and coming up with a plan.

[@mistermartin82]

Maybe someone should make an EV charger which can take the meter tails directly ?

[@davidrowe79]

So we can't actually install a DP 100 amp ISCO block in the cabinet or meter tails feeding another board inside the property then , as this is additional equipment and will also be prohibited??? Plenty of installs over the years that I have seen, have had consumer units fitted inside the meter box. Also adaptable boxes feeding detached garages with a twin and CPC cable going in one side and an SWA going out the other. You can guarantee that if the DNO ran out of space in the meter box, it would be the customers responsibility to get it sorted at their own cost. So saying they could pull the fuse is a little extreme I would say. This only encourages muppets to try piggyback another set of tails out of the main switch of the main consumer unit. Where do we put the CT if the tails run straight out the back of the main switch and into the cavity? Knock a brick out from outside and locate it in the cavity???? It's all very well doing a mockup of an install in a classroom, but they are never true to real life installations.Putting them on the spot and asking this question, they were never going to encourage the installation of other equipment within the meter box, however I'd say they would need to assess if the equipment was actually hindering anything they would need do within the enclosure. Can you image having a new born baby and the DNO pulling the main fuse due to an ISCO block being installed in the meter box?

[@efixx]

Wise words David - plenty more to come on this topic as the real world is full of contradictions and the advice between DNOs varies. The problem atm is EV is running faster than they can.

[@davidrowe79]

Totally agree. With the proposed ban on Gas boilers, they aren't going to be able to limit every household to 80 amps, which seems to be the norm whenever I request a 100amp supply.

[@gregspeller5413]

Great vid, I couldn't find anything in the regs on this so glad it's cleared up. Sometimes the fuseboard is located in the middle of the house so that's gonna be challenging for future installs.

[@neillindsay2687]

When I was on the tools in the 1980s/90s (working for the local electricity “board”) we would regularly replace internal meter boards and external meter boxes/doors as they were the property of that “electricity board” as well as everything in it (except customers tails). There seems to have been a subtle shift of responsibility when the industry split to Distribution Network Operator/Supplier/Meter Operator. Suddenly, the local electricity board’s didn’t necessarily own all the equipment. Now the outside meter boxes have shifted to the responsibility of the building owner but the local DNO still keeping all the rights for access.

[@efixx]

Spot on

[@8skellerns]

Privatization, the rotten fruits are showing!

[@britannic2000]

Also after speaking with the local Dno about a poor earth on an tns there answer was we do not maintain that type of system they would check if it could be made pme but if not the electrician would have to correct it as they are not responsible for providing an earth, anybody else been told this ?

[@TheEulerID]

@@britannic2000 That sounds deeply suspicious to me. If the system was TN-S at the time of original installation and the DNO has now effectively changed that earthing system (without notification) having not rectified problems with the earthing that's occurred in their network, then that's potentially dangerous. How would anybody ever know unless it was tested? I have heard of DNOs converting supplies from TN-S to TN-C-S because of faults, or maybe because they've made changes to the local distribution network, but unilaterally downgrading a householder's earthing system strikes me as evading responsibilities.

[@michaelconduit5893]

Mantel cabinets are specifically designed to have a skeleton fuse board within aswell as the meter, DNO fuse etc. Wylex market a replacement 18th edition 'skeleton' consumer unit designed to use the same mounting points as the original skeleton unit. Its a very tight fit inside the Mantel box.

[@ThePrawlin]

Northern Powergrid specifically state on their website that customers own equipment.CAN definitely be added inside the meter box! So what you are saying in this video is not true for all DNOs!

[@efixx]

We asked NPG directly and they answered back via the ENA statement. Lots of the advice online predates the roll out of EV chargers. We will follow this up again soon.

[@ThePrawlin]

@@efixx haha, well they had better not change the rules on the fly now. My meter box is totally FULL of kit and has been for 10 years since my solar PV was installed. Smart meter fitted 2 years ago without any issues. Electrically it’s the most logical, practical and safe place to connect an EV charge point to. Keep the high continuous loads away from house internal CU. TBH I’d rather you just accept the NPG web site statement as it is now! It’s very explicit. Why keep prodding them? If you keep asking them for more definitive answer they might change the rules and make it not acceptable any more! That’s not in anyone’s interest is it?

[@efixx]

Installers want clarity at the moment it’s very grey. Regardless of what they say on the web site , if someone fills the box with “stuff”and it prevents access you’d have it get it shifted. Here’s what the ESQCR says Where a connection to a distributor’s network has been made, or is proposed, and the distributor is not satisfied that the consumer’s installation or other distributor’s network or street electrical fixture which is or would be connected to his network is or would be so constructed, installed, protected and used or arranged for use so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, danger or interference with his or any other distributor’s network, or with the supply to any consumer’s installation or street electrical fixture, he may issue a notice in writing to the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be) requiring remedial works to be carried out within such reasonable period as may be specified in the notice.

[@grahamturner6119]

Seen many meter boxes with no doors nobody cares All out in the rain

[@bhutchins1991]

Could you do the following... Henley block in meter cabinet, 10mm tails in plastic conduit to an IP rated 2 way enclosure housing a DP RCBO outside next to the meter cabinet?

[@brianpiddock6074]

How many Installations up and down the country built in the late 70's and 80's were it was the norm to fit the cu in the meter box. So now we all know, how do we word that on an EICR. just asking LOL.

[@NERTH247]

The box is not owned by the supplier as when we build a house we supply and fit the cabinet, so up to home owner

[@kbultray]

The perfect solution is a second enclosure built in next to the supply cabinet. this would accommodate all anciiliary equipment, ie. Solar monitoring, EV switchgear etc.

[@latitudeash]

Good idea. The cost of one of those external box’s is cheep so it’s a no brainier to do that if the consumer box is to far away.

[@steve11211]

Had a tenant have a very large EV charger manufacturer and installer come to install a charger on the property today.. Firstly they had no idea it was a looped supply, and they the guy said he was going to fit the consumer unit in the meter box. When I told them they were not allowed, I got told Eon had given them permission, thanks to you I quoted ENA response and told them in no uncertain terms that they were not fitting the board in the meter cupboard. There was a 17th edition plastic board split load high integrity, I suggested a 40A mcb I got told they cant really touch consumer units unless its easier to just add a circuit, I offered as a fully qualified spark with my own company to fit a the 40A mcb to supply a consumer unit next to the existing consumer unit. The conversation turned to SPD, the guy onsite phoned his company who said nope they don't fit SPD's, after contacting said company they confirmed they are installing to BS7671 18th edition ammendment 2, I verbatim told them regulation 443.4.1 and told them the response I got from NAPIT and IET that new circuits require an SPD.. They are going to get back to me (We will see), but just goes to show it is still going on... The poor block onsite then could not get hold of his company to find out if the paperwork was in with DNO to allow him to install the charger, I phoned a contact I have at the DNO who confirmed no paperwork had been sent in... Just as well I was there or they would have fitted it on a looped supply without permission, in the meter box and without an SPD. It annoy me that honest sparks are losing work to these cowboys that are not your one man band unqualified cowboys, they are national companies that you would expect should be trusted..

[@alliefdxproductionservices5856]

IP rated locking external enclosure (Schneider's Merlin insulated enclosure range comes to mind) is the way to go, in my opinion. It can be a bit unsightly, but it's such a non-invasive installation for the customer when you've got an external meter box, and it saves *so much* time, energy, and money, it's a bit of a no-brainer for somebody who wants an EV charger install without completely breaking the bank.

[@leewills2160]

exactly.

[@deang5622]

I don't agree. Enclosures IP rated against the ingress of water tend to be completely sealed, and the concern of one DNO is over heating by the inclusion of additional component. A metal enclosure will help in respect of this. Personally I think the risk of overheating is very low, but if you want to keep the DNO happy and remove the "overheating" excuse, then you need an enclosure with ventilation holes and that by their very nature means the enclosure is not going to get a very high IP-X rating (where : 1 ≤ X ≤ 9)

[@TheEulerID]

@@deang5622 As it's outside the meter box is has precisely zero to do with the DNO. I would expect any external box to meet whatever the relevant regulations will be for external electrical installations and and, in reality, for an EV charger it's not going to be much more than over-current protection and, maybe, an RCD of the appropriate type. It's going to dissipate about 1 watt.

[@deang5622]

@@TheEulerID Don't confuse environment ratings with electrical protection mechanisms. We are not even talking about electrical protection mechanisms, the original post and my response is about environmental protection. If you re-read my post, the key subject I was writing on was IP protections and I can assure you this applies to any enclosure carrying electrical apparatus and it is nothing to do with the DNO. So your remark about "has precisely zero do with the DNO" demonstrates you have not understand what I was talking about. 4/10 - must try harder.

[@iknowmyfootball3901]

Gents would you do a vid on the extinguishing in built within the consumer unit I work for a council managing social housing , ideally a review from your team would be exceptional. We have 5000 new builds coming up and would like to introduce these if they are worth installing , I like the idea but it's difficult convincing senior members as their argument is with correct fire stopping sealent it's not necessary Cheers

[@MegaJonesy84]

Guess that means no fused isolators for submains can be installed in the meter box then too?

[@k1100ltwhite]

Uk power networks have a diagram showing you can fit a switch fuse. PAGE 11 www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/asset/5fef85a5-c01f-4322-bc62-37a4dbf4fd3b/getting+connected+guide.pdf

[@jammyb2008]

Most new builds where the consumer unit is more than 3m away from the meter box. Switch fuse is fitted in the meter box. No meter installer has ever refused to fit in the meter box and in fact on new builds meter installers will actively keep their meter connection and 2P isolator over as much as they can to facilitate switch fuse enclosure installation. I agree on anything else (EV) should not be in the meter enclosure but switch fuse should be expected as permitted.

[@millomweb]

In my meter box - you can. It's already got the ironing board, vacuum cleaner and 3 old PCs in there - with monitors. #understairs_cupboard

[@johnburns4017]

ENO *never* said _no._ They said *recommend.* In short you can.

[@efixx]

The answers from the individual DNOs was a firm no. “ultimately NIE Networks position is where the minimum dimensions within an outdoor meter box are not reserved for our equipment, NIE Network may, and increasingly likely to disconnect the customer and issue a defect notice citing the Standard Connection T&C’s” Your risk

[@johnburns4017]

@@efixx They all have different dictates. *The law of the law of the land is over all of them.* It is best they look at it. They cannot make up their own laws. They have to supply you with electricity if it is available. The law states the framework of the supply. Their T&Cs are meaningless, as you cannot sign away the law. You have to supply enough space for their equipment, to fix and maintain, that operates within a temperature range. A space that is safe and will not damage the equipment over time - such as not far too hot, could be hit by objects, cars in garages, etc. If there is space inside a box which *you* own to say put a small CU in then they cannot stop you, or remove their equipment, as long as they have enough space to service their equipment. It is *your* box, *not* their box. All they need is space inside it. In short they are talking *bollocks.* Going back.. _ENO never said_ *_no._* _They said_ *_recommend._* _In short you can._ *_Recommend_* is not *_no._*

[@sandymcnair5298]

@@johnburns4017 If you willingly don't follow a recomendation there is always a risk to your customer to pay for unnecessary works down the line because the you have offered them advice that did not follow the recomendations and good practice available to you at the time of install. I would recommend your customers find a new electrician... But they don't have too, that's just advice.

[@johnburns4017]

@@sandymcnair5298 They all have different *recommendations.* All they need is enough space. They cannot claim a whole box which they do not even own. Do not be frightened of these people. They are private companies geared to making *profits.* They do all to reduce costs and/or get you to foot costs. The Water and Gas Utilities provide isolation (isolation cocks), but the hey presto the DNOs do not. To safely isolate to work on a CU you need to get them out, and pay them a whack, to break a seal on the main fuse and pull it out to make a place *safe.* Cheeky b****ds! Most electricians just break the seal and make the place safe and put the fuse back. See Dave Savery's vid on this topic and hear the justified colourful expletives. I would like to see them take an electrician to court who broke a seal to make a place *safe,* because *they* never provided an isolation switch for safety purpose - when the other utilitites do. The sharks would get laughed out of court. Once again, if there is enough room left in a box for their equipment you can fix a CU, etc in the box. Do not be bullied by them.

[@100tinsoldiers]

@@johnburns4017 Can we get ice cream on the way home... maybe... yeah thats a no.

[@mfx1]

At the end of the day there is no LAW that says you can't do it so you can do it. If there is any contract then that would be between the DNO and the customer not the DNO and the electrician so the DNO would have to take civil action against the electrician and good luck with that. Does any contract between the DNO and the customer exist or have legal standing? I'd say in most cases probably not as you deal with your supplier not the DNO directly and your supplier deals with the DNO. So basically fit what you like and if they try and get arsy tell them to F**k off!. The DNO does not "own" that space, the householder does in the absence of any contract with the customer to the contrary I certainly don't have any contract with anyone that says they own that space. I'd also argue that the claim that the householder is responsible for the box is legally dubious again where is the law/contract that states that? It's their equipment.

[@granite676]

As a person who works for a DNO and has been directly involoved with the new service head replacements, I fully understand WHY it's a no no ! The service head or 'cutout,' is changed LIVE ! Would you want to be messing around in a cutout meter box with a live supply cable trying to fit a new cutout ?? It can get a bit hairy scarey when your struggling for space. THIS is the main reason the cutout meter box is NOT the place to install anything but the coutout and metering equipment. Electricians don't work with a live incoming supply which could be carrying 2/3/400 amps from the mains service cable running under the footpath down the street or road. This type of work demands safety equipment and training to make the task working LIVE to be carried out safely. So please don't put anyhting in that meter/cutout supply box because you'll create a whole heap of potential future issues for the customer or yourself as the electrician 👍😉

[@cristianohinkenickel5882]

Hi? Could you please explain why older meter boxes have the consumer unit built in to it? Surely its the same and its always been allowed?

[@efixx]

Not in the UK 🇬🇧

[@Gazzerdaman]

@@efixx I think the OP is confusing a mantel unit with a meterbox in this situation.where a metal cabinet was installed with a skeleton board at the top

[@effervescence5664]

@@Gazzerdaman Nope there's a fair few with consumer units inside them - circa 1960-1975. Some internal to the building some external. See them all over the South East of England. Edit: To clarify many of those skeleton consumer units were put in by the same company that were putting in the DNO equipment at the time.

[@cristianohinkenickel5882]

Thats right lots of them still about and they even offer an up to date skeleton board to be installed inside the meter box.

[@skellious]

"we would not recommend" means yes to me?

[@efixx]

Good luck with that if you fill the meter cabinet and then a smart meter doesn’t fit.

[@olegbirfon-ss3fs]

hi, anybody could explain when we could place 63amp, or 80amp or 100amp? after installed smart meter it increased the bill cost, burn off extractor, washing machine, hair drier, thank you have a nice day

[@sebastiannielsen]

What I have understand, their answer means, YES you can use the meter box for EV, PV equipment and other things, BUT if we need the space, we could require you to remove the items. Because meter boxes have different sizes, if they installed a huuge meter box with lots of space, of course you could use that space, then theres no problem with heat either. Another sort of equipment that is common to put in meter boxes are meter reading equipment. Usually part of home automation, people install small LED detectors on their meters with doble-sided tape, that will wirelessly send the meter value into the house. Same would apply if meter box is too small, they could require you to replace it with a bigger one if they are going to install a bigger meter that doesn't fit, or if you make changes in electricity supply agreement, for example, a 3-phase supply instead of 1-phase supply, and the meter box is to small to house a 3-phase meter + 3-phase cutout. So I take the answer as the priority seat on buses. You can sit there, but a disabled person have priority, and you have to move or stand up if such a person wants to use the seat.

[@CarlosArruda77]

There's a big difference between can and should! Off course we can do it. Many have done it. Understandably mainly to keep costs down. But should we do it? No.

[@andysims4906]

Quite a few meter boxes have on the chipboard back stamped Boards Equipment Only in big black letters. Maybe that’s just round my area

[@alfacoro1984ify]

Seen a job installing EV chargers it gives you around £40000 a year if you can install 2 a day you can get an extra £22000 if you can do 3 a day. I have done a couple now but on commercial buildings, office blocks e.c.t. Now if the customer has a new consumer unit and the cable run is easy yes I think 2 a day is possible maybe 3 at a push remembering you have to drive between jobs lunch and if you are on your own and the cable route is awkward could be a nightmare. Just wondering what people on here think that are installing them all the time? I just think to get that done including testing them people will just be lashing them in and not doing a good job just wanted people's views. And if you had to be that quick would you not just install a cu in the outside meter box because that would be the quickest way? I just find these companies doing this are just out to make money and not doing a proper job, pisses me off when I try to do the best I can within reason so that the people I work for get a neat and tidy clean install done properly.

[@lnorange]

Interesting, Podpoint installed mine; they fitted two Henley blocks and an EV isolator inside the DNO Meter Box so as a consumer / customer, safe to assume someone like Podpoint knows what they are doing so mine stays as it is.

[@michaelboyes4948]

Depends who your DNO is Northern Powergrid allow you to install consumers equipment in the meter cupboard but sufficient space needs to be left for the cutout and metering equipment

[@christastic100]

Add a second flush cabinet a short distance away could be an option I agree with another comment about the meter boxes need updates probably a two door design

[@bobmeister0253]

Have the regulations now changed to allow access to meter box? We had our charger installed only yesterday. I made space around the consumer unit for easy access and the installer all the extra parts in the meter cabinet inside our house instead. We went with a big company who use specialist EV charger installers to complete the install. I questioned this at the end and the installer showed me dozens of photos of installs where this is the norm. He then showed me pictures of people with new houses where they installed a separate consumer unit next to the charger which I thought looked awful. At least we have a tidy installation but I'm unsure now if this is legal? Surely they have to keep to the regulations in 2023?

[@jamesharris6062]

I've just had one fitted under the stairs fuse switch but they lots of room easily to switch off what is ok ?

[@chrisb594]

It wasnt a "No" at all because there is no regulation or law to say as such. This is why they said "recommend", which we all know, means fuck all! As most engineers have been recommending them to increase the size of the boxes for years to no avail!

[@wolfrig2000]

Why would you want to though? It's such a small space, you'll upgrade in the future and the upgrade will probably be bigger or different shaped!

[@romanodowbusz6139]

So if your meter tails are longer than 3m your not allowed to put the fused switch in the meter box?

[@eded6163]

Meter box is installed by electricain who would feed tails in and customer is paying for, then cable and meter installed by supplier, so not DNO property.

[@Chequr_Prostate]

I wonder how many electricians will be honest enough to go and retrofit their work? Let me guess…Zero. Sparks Ehh.

[@samhorder]

They said "recommend" that no equipment is added. The word recommend is not a no...

[@efixx]

It’s not a yes and crack on put whatever you want inside. The responses from the individual DNOs are very clear “NO”

[@ThePrawlin]

@@efixx that’s nonsense. NPG state own equipment definitely can be added into meter box!

[@gethindavies4269]

Would the conduit coming from the meter panel not have to be earthed metal? Otherwise it would have to be on an rcd? Does the 3m rule still apply?

[@markovichamp]

Interestingly, here in Ireland, where the electrical practices and standards pretty much follow the UK's, an allowance has been made specifically for the case of EV charging points, to allow a consumer unit to be fitted inside the meter box.

[@efixx]

Thanks - we've read about the recent changes. Is it true that properties will typically have a main cutout installed for the whole installation.

[@markovichamp]

@@efixx I have a main cut-out fuse on the feed into the meter, but there isn't any kind of circuit-breaker, RCD, etc., in the meter box.

[@markovichamp]

See page #6: safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/MarchNewsletterSafeElecFinal-1.pdf

[@timotei511]

I'm hoping to do exactly this but my electrician wants to install a separate surface mounted box just beside the meter box which will be ugly as heck. do you know is there any published confirmation/guidance from ESB about fitting a consumer unit inside the meter box? Thanks

[@markovichamp]

@@timotei511 It seems they changed their minds about that... I ended with a separate box for the charger c/b indoors, next to the regular fuse box, and the 32A cable routed through the wall and out to the wallbox. Its high up on the wall in the utility room, so it doesn't bother me none. And yeah, there is a big-assed yellow/red cut-out installed next to the wallbox, outside, too.

[@lansdorf]

The cabinet belongs to the home owner. If you build your own house you have to buy your own cabinet and hockey stick they only own the equipment. On a different note dont fit a smart meter power rationing is on the way.

[@anthonybragg]

When we had to fit a switch-fuse due to a sub-distribution circuit needed as the consumer unit was away from the outside wall meter box we perswaded some of the developers of new houses that listened to put an additional meter box along side. This method is a bit tricky to retrofit due to damp proof and support of the opening.

[@efixx]

Are bigger meter boxes with dedicated customer area the answer?

[@anthonybragg]

@@efixx I think the problem is more with existing. Maybe a box about A4 size with cavity drip tray and top brickwork support built-in where you cut the hole out and taking the coursework out at the top for the overhang brick lintal.

[@APSuk2]

What about if the cut out & meter are not in a meter box but mounted on a internal wall & then are boxed in?

[@leighobrien1508]

How do we get round the metal situation all ip consumer units are plastic

[@efixx]

Not a problem if you are on an outside wall.

[@raychambers3646]

Fit your own meter box adjacent? First picture of DNO install a bit poor.

[@stevieg7403]

Are you allowed to install an additional cabinet next to the existing one to install your own equipment (EV equipment/ consumer unit)?

[@efixx]

Yes - that’s the most sensible approach

[@stevieg7403]

So not too much of an issue, I was beginning to worry .

[@stevieg7403]

Can you put the cabinet above the original, or does it need to be side by side?

[@darrengough2770]

I was about to ask this question so pleased to see someone has asked it! I have found a slimline box which may fit a Rolec Wallpod. My access down the side of the house is quite narrow so to have it recessed in the garage wall is a great option!

[@charliechristmas5147]

Has anyone thought of charging the electric company a monthly charge for the use of the box supplied by the consumer, to offset the standing charge ?

[@MrNickGascoigne]

Nothing has changed here, the meter box has always been out of bounds for anything other than the dno equipment.. just laziness

[@simonr1392]

The meter box belongs to the customer here in NI. As an electrician or builder we have to supply them for the house.

[@flyer152]

From what I can see (abd when speaking to UKPN), there is no issue in installing a small CU in the meter cabinet. They "recommend" you shouldn't, but its not a "you must not" it's the property owners space that has been allocated for use by the DNO and surply company. If when the time comes that the DNO/surply company wants to change equipment, if there is not enough space, its down to the owner to have space made.

[@pstanyer1]

exactly what the DNO said on my brand new house. This video is completely misleading

[@paulfreeman5386]

So what was the outcome of your own installation of the My Energy Eddie in the meter cupboard?

[@tonywebb9909]

Since this year we are allowed to install the supplies in the meter cabinet here in Ireland. It's a no brainier! You park the car right next to the meter box. The electricity supplier wants to sell off peak due to wind turbines making too much power at night. There are rules though, isolation labels on main CCU, DC RCDs, and external double pole isolator adjacent to charger (it's defined as fixed equipment just like and oven or 3Kw+ appliance)

[@efixx]

Great info thanks - and rules which help level the playing field - Thanks Tony

[@denzdgreat]

My consumer unit trip off and I can’t turn it on. How to troubleshoot this, do I need to contact the installer?