Can Free Speech Save Rational Debate?

💥Join us on our Journey to 1 Million Subscribers💥 We're joined by Claire Fox, Brexit Party MEP and Director of Academy of Ideas & Ella Whelan, Journalist and Author of What Women Want.
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About TRIGGERnometry:
Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.

[@triggerpod]

Thank you for watching! We'll be at Battle of Ideas 2019, get your tickets here www.battleofideas.org.uk/battle-ideas-2019-tickets/ If you enjoy TRIGGERnometry and believe in what we’re doing subscribe, tell a friend or join the cause on Patreon, PayPal or Subscribestar [links in description]

[@nathantripathy]

Guys! You didn't ask them the most important question about political debate. Your guests said that they believe that refusing to debate is cowardly. I would have wanted them to respond to the idea that just because an argument is more convincing or because one person's logic is more sound doesn't mean that said argument or arguer is more correct or better than the other. Further, do they honesty believe that debate is infallible? For example, if somebody convinces the majority of people that the world is flat so half of the world's population (the half on the side of the world that doesn't exist) should be exterminated, should we just go along with that? Do they think that only good ideas that they will agree with will come out on top?

[@johnblaker2454]

This is one of the best interviews Triggernometry has done yet! Ella was really spot on about the shifting of labels and the hollowness of Left v Right in modern politics in Britain and the US. Like she said "its not the 80s anymore". We need to figure out a new way to talk about the new differences in our political dialogue. I love Trigger. As an American, it really gives me an opportunity to think about the big political themes in the English speaking world. I would assume this is because I can focus purely on the arguments as Brexit and some other topics aren't occurring in my country, but the overarching themes around free speech and political realignment are the same. Keep it up guys, you're becoming better interviewers every week.

[@grenvillephillips6998]

Ella Whelan - A Pre-Raphaelite muse in bovver boots!

[@chrisneedham5803]

'Pre Raphaelite' always makes me think of a song by Paul Weller 'wings of speed', and I don't know why.

[@michel-jeantailleur]

@@chrisneedham5803 You're free-associating, Chris... It's something to do with the image of The Lady of Shalott painting which is part of the cover of Stanley Road... mixed with a line from Wings of Speed: "in dreams she floats on a stream..." Unless your brain is working in a completely different way... in which case I'll beg your pardon.

[@chrisneedham5803]

@@michel-jeantailleur ....... You're right ...... excellent. ...... You've put the two pieces together for me. I've got his music on my phone and have not seen that image for years. 🍷🍺👍

[@chrisneedham5803]

@Jim fallow ...... Pre Raphaelite: Oxford English dictionary "give her one" 😂😂😂😂

[@grenvillephillips6998]

@Jim fallow Like Hammershoi I always prefer to see the back of women.

[@andrewwatson4244]

The fact Hopkins, TR and Bannon are bogiemen makes then interesting. Yet I've never heard any of them say something majorly radical or offensive

[@Humbug-o1c]

Tommy Robinson speaks with a working class accent and loses his temper sometimes so he is boring, when the truth is your show is too cowardly to have him on in case the establishment black list and pile on you the way they have him.

[@simonestreeter1518]

Guilt by association. They have described it well already, and we are supposed to understand they can't afford it.

[@dfn808]

You were doing well until about 47 and a half minutes in - you just couldn't help yourselves attacking Tony Robinson as having nothing interesting to say. It doesn't matter if you agree with his views or not, he absolutely knows more about the subjects he talks about than you or I do. It would appear that your claims of openness and tolerance are extremely shallow. Once again, Nazism and Socialism are NOT right wing ideologies - " Ich bin ein Solcialist" the words of A Hitler.

[@raifthemad]

Who is this Tony Robinson you speak of?

[@dfn808]

@@raifthemad Oop's, that's what you get by watching too many Archaeological clips. I did of course mean Tommy not Tony :(

[@actthenpens]

when they say "uninteresting" they mean ideas they don't like. You can see it when they talk about balance. They won't put pro-life irrationality against enlighten pro-abortion. Interesting, uninteresting and balance are just another form of controlling the debate.

[@ega9499]

Tony Robinson 😆 I would love someone to invite Tony on to some posh BBC panel but the interns get mixed up and invite Tommy instead 😂

[@ega9499]

BTW I agree with what you are saying. The thing about TR is that it’s actually largely irrelevant if he is a good or bad guy, what’s important is the claims he makes. Notice the MSM rarely debunk his actual claims. They only attack his person, that to me is a huge red flag that what he is saying might be right.

[@adsie79]

Oh for common sense and rational debate. These two are great. I don't agree with all of their politics, but what a breath of fresh air whenever I see them. Your channel is great BTW. Thank you!

[@juggy666]

I love the way these women work together, listening to each other, respecting each other. Marvelous.

[@serpentini8137]

So Claire, the new angle to no-platform someone is to claim you simply find them "boring"? All the while masquerading as a rational advocate of free speech. I've peered through windows less transparent than you.

[@simonestreeter1518]

So it's already established we can't hear Tommy Robinson or Steve Bannon because they're 'boring'? How is this different from no-platforming? Katie Hopkins might be boring, from the bits I've seen. But still, as they so aptly described, why not let them show it?

[@danielshagman]

I think it should be up to the audience to decide who is boring. I wonder if they fear the very thing Ella was talking about, in regards to the University not wanting the UKIP guy on stage saying "Deport all black people" and the crowd cheering. They worry that Robinson would say something risque, and the crowd reacting positively. Apparently, scary isn't interesting.

[@serpentini8137]

It is no-platforming, the cheek of this dull uninspiring woman to think she can decide who's worth listening to.

[@sadhappy8860]

Right of reply lads?

[@johndub3866]

Its interesting that the Economist debate with Steve Bannon was brought up, and the idea of confronting him put forward as a goal. Ella and Claire might actually want to watch that debate. Steve Bannon made Zanny Minton Beddoes look foolish and shrill, and he did it with ideas.

[@marclacey2263]

The current left wing talk a good fight, but lack principles and spine. And honesty. And judgement. And self-awareness. And historical perspective. Because they like to be told what to think, like children.

[@LusciousTwinkle]

I would like to see TR both on here and at the festival. Im sick of hearing Katie Hopkins to be honest because I think people are generally right about her but I think the hatchet job that has been done of TR is disgusting and very worrying and that people should know about it. There are more and more people who think like this.

[@sadhappy8860]

She was for free speech and against unplatforming (edit), and mislabelling and all this..... Until she brought up Tommy as an example of a bigot. It's always how these free speech people seem to devolve their point.

[@sadhappy8860]

And now we see it with Toby Young's free speech union of which (edit) see is a member. Same old...

[@sukablat5938]

Steve Bannon isnt interesting? Tommy Robbinson isnt interesting? Really? There is a reason they are popular despite the mainstreams best efforts to make that not the case. I have a feeling that almost everyone who could be construed as a biggot is 'not interesting' enough to debate.

[@simonking2869]

If they had the bottle to run a next guest poll, it's a fair bet Robinson or Hopkins would beat just about anyone. That wouldn't mean Trig viewers are raaaacists, but that they recognise the issues around Islam that are deliberately ignored.

[@Phil_D_Waller]

How is Steve Bannon uninteresting? Based on whose views

[@marit50]

P W well he’s interesting because he’s influential though you may not be prepared to stir a digit to watch him. If everyone else feels the same way he’ll have to do some thing else. That’s free speech. And I speak as someone who has only the vaguest idea that he is right wing, and I have so far thought that he hasn’t had enough credentials to make him worth listening too.

[@NPC-st7zv]

@@marit50 did you see his oxford university appearance. It was interesting.

[@Phil_D_Waller]

@@marit50 you misssed my point - that is what i am saying - Claire Fox cant waffle on about free speech and then say - he is uninteresting and therefore not worthy of a platform - my point is - free speech means they should allow Bannon to have his platform - i just think this Battle of ideas is still too left wing - as the organizers are very much so

[@charlytaylor1748]

I watched the OU speech. And 'uninteresting' it wasn't.

[@NativeNewMexican]

I'm pro-choice, but their attitude towards "no platforming" an ant-abortionist is disgusting.

[@NativeNewMexican]

@Kirk Lazarus It's sickening how self righteous she was given that she's just as incapable of accepting that there are intellectually honest people who disagree with her. Hell, my pro-choice stance gave up that idiotic argument ages ago. How many kidneys do you have Ms Fox? How many eyes? Well then, this isn't your body, is it? Oh, yeah, I forgot, she's an effing commie, she has to be mental.

[@TessaTickle]

LOL, Ella thinks she could humiliate Steve Bannon?

[@neodonkey]

One more thought - when I was in college we had a some classes where we had to argue FOR something we disagreed with. It was excruciating but well worth doing. Eg if you were pro unions you had to represent the employer and if you were pro free markets they’d make you be the union rep. It was a great way of making people understand the other side of the argument

[@brother1ray]

Playing "Devil's Advocate" dates back to Medieval Theology where monks took their turn at arguing for the Devil against Faith and Christian dogma, as an intellectual exercise and challenge to belief! Nothing new here by a long way.

[@neodonkey]

brother1ray not suggesting it’s new in well aware of devils advocate, but actually doing it in role play is something that must be vanishingly rare in educational sessions today

[@neodonkey]

For instance having a remainder have to role play being for Brexit and vice versa. Both sides would learn something.

[@brother1ray]

Sadly, I think you're probably right. Generation Snowflake cannot abide to have their 'woke' orthodoxy even questioned, let alone rigorously, ruthlessly and rationally deconstructed! And their lack of practice in defending their 'reasoning' when questioned, is why they revert immediately to the Fallacy of Ad Hominen by throwing names and insults at us heretics who dare to question their 'Group Think' dogma. ("That's racist/sexist/transphobic/islamophobic!" etc etc, being their standard response to all and any criticism.) To think the Medieval Church was more open to challenge, LOL!

[@neil6002]

Another great talk. Both Ella and Claire make absolute sense and it would be wonderful if more people were willing to engage in debate, rather than labeling and de-platforming. Well done to Francis and Konstantin for being the 'Michael Parkinsons' of the 21st century!

[@girlgirl4548]

I wonder how much of the like/dislike, yes/no, listen/block mentality in any discussion, debate or argument these days actually results from the conditioning of people's minds by the habit on smartphones and social media of expressing "opinion" in only the way the technology allows, that is through either a "yes/like/green" button or a "no/dislike/red" button. There's no room for shades of opinion, no room for reasonable discussion, no room for anything other than one of two set, pre-determined positions. The way minds work is being warped by the technology and the mess we have is perhaps the result.

[@Spiritina8]

I think TR should be a guest on here but I don't thing Trigger would have him on here.

[@duncefunce1513]

I agree, they really should have him on. Be bold

[@simonking2869]

And Katie Hopkins; they play Billy Big Bollocks about openness to ideas but would never have them on. What is it Katie or Tommy would say that's beyond Tiriggernomerty's remit? That radical Islam (I'd say just Islam full stop) poses an existential and present threat to liberal, Western values that's being willfully ignored by the political class? Sounds like a bloody good episode.

[@bob-zo7rp]

trigger just want to smear tommy and say hes to bad to bring on

[@bob-zo7rp]

im starting to feel triggernometry and its fans are starting to become normie central

[@SadisticStang]

When they have Jared Taylor on, I'll give them their dues.

[@stephengriffiths5676]

A decent enough conversation but wish you boys would challenge a bit more. When CF was being disparaging about Steve Bannon surely you could have asked how she squares that with being in the same party as Farage, who is idealogically cut from the same cloth. Regardless would have been interesting to hear her views on him but you never went there. Then Ella says they wouldn't invite the likes of Katie Hopkins or Tommy Robinson on to 'Battle of Ideas' because they had nothing interesting to say! She sounded more prejudiced and narrow-minded than the MSM but again you let it go. By contrast, the BBC's uber-liberal Nicky Campbell has described TR as a fascinating individual.. and he actually has interviewed him, something that clearly terrifies you wet blankets. Never mind, at least we have the Lord Adonis interview to look forward to.. After all we dont hear enough from bland, metropolitan Liberal Remainers do we?

[@casperme6552]

Ironic that they don't want to debate 'certain people' because they aren't interesting enough.... Having been watching Douglas Murray and the like this weekend, these two really do come across as dull as ditch water, with barely anything interesting to say....

[@draum8103]

I've watched this channel a lot, and there's a really obvious pattern. The hosts constantly pretend to be 'unbiased' 'oh you know we're a fair channel here' 'we want freedom of opinion and all perspectives here' etc, yet only do interviews portraying the left in a negative light, never the right. Then, they make comments like 'oh but I suppose all those people on the left these days would say we're all Nazi fascists here!' (sarcastic laughing with the guest as if it's a hilarious and even slightly true joke). The one fatter guy sits there saying nothing for 95% of the time, then guy with the very high pitched voiced says something about identity politics. The other guy says 'and by the way he's a Russian Jew ah-hah-hah!'. It's super predictable.

[@dohlecarnett1866]

I have to say that I must agree with this. Francis and Konstantin say they invite lefties but they don't wanna come. Ok. But that doesn't mean they should blindly give in. A lot of the times they basically roll out the red carpet to their guests and then crouch on those carpets themselves. Some questions too are just to predictable and try to steer the conversations in some directions. Best example is immigration. The guest doesn't even go on about immigration but the question then goes into the certain direction.

[@Mrlimabean01]

I will say that I pretty thoroughly dislike the Battle of Ideas. As someone who does enjoy philosophical discussions about modern political issues, I find that the way they ask the questions and moderate the debates causes the rhetoric of many of the guests to devolve into cheap shots and gotchas. Oftentimes their political perspective (similar to konstantin's and francis') feels forced in the framing of the questions and oftentimes emotional temperature of the dialogue. That said, I feel that their hearts are in the right place and with some polishing could actually start to produce some meaningful dialogue.

[@1amjapan]

A useful critique.

[@TessaTickle]

"uninteresting", "too busy", new attempts at suppressing opinions they don't like. Closed the tab.

[@simonestreeter1518]

Yes. This felt a bit incestuous. I'm about to unsubscribe if this isn't addressed with some genuine courage.

[@TessaTickle]

@@simonestreeter1518 nah, don't unsubscribe. The boys do a great job.

[@simonestreeter1518]

@@TessaTickle You're sweet, Michael, and yes they do. It's if they use their talents without acknowledging when they are being hypocritical that I don't have time.

[@politicaltechnology6786]

This interview and the comments are so normie tier. Try Keith Woods for some critique that pushes the envelope.

[@serpentini8137]

Lets have Morgoth join him.

[@politicaltechnology6786]

@@serpentini8137 lol i don't think normies are quite ready for that. What Keith can do, because he's fully outside the system, is give a complete description of the system and it failings. What these doughnuts are doing is guessing what the beast is from inside the beast's stomach.

[@annebracher1843]

An ex-Labourite myself, I can relate to both of these women. Great to see them on together.

[@simonking2869]

Was enjoying this up until Hopkins, Robinson, and Bannon were cited as obviously beyond the Pale. Clearly they haven't listened to or understood their arguements.

[@sadhappy8860]

Ironically labelling them, which they are so against

[@simonking2869]

@@sadhappy8860 Absolutely. Their comments and characterisation of them refuted what they were saying in the rest of the interview.

[@actthenpens]

i was gone long before then we she was inferring the founder of the Brexit party was a racist.

[@juggy666]

Claire Fox, what a great woman. Sadly she is all the good things that labour was.

[@danielzipperer9395]

Thank you! This issue is being discussed in my neighborhood now! Im going to share this podcast with my neighbors!

[@neodonkey]

Enjoyable as always. One tip, tell guests not to wear dark black clothes as it makes them look like they have disembodied hands

[@xkatnisstylinson]

Ella quickly mentioned how the EU goes against workers’ liberation and classic left wing ideas, but without arguing for it or giving any factual information about her statement. Does anyone know if there’s a video out there where she does? ‘Cause as far as I know it’s quite the opposite, the EU has been protecting workers’ rights in a number of ways.

[@johnw9141]

Your channel is getting good growth, well done and keep up the good work.

[@borderlands6606]

The tendency for reporters to ask a question, then interrupt the person answering three words in, gets my goat. Emily Maitlis interviewed Steve Baker of the ERG after Saturday's Commons vote. Baker is an ideologue on the EU, but Maitlis was literally haranguing him and accusing him of being a free market neo-liberal fundamentalist, as though that cancelled any opinion he may have had on the subject. The media has always had its biases, but Brexit has provided a gloves-off approach from individual reporters who see themselves as news celebrities. Presumably Emily Maitlis's producer supports her rudeness as a key part of BBC strategy.

[@carlbyronrodgers]

The Economist interview with Mr. Bannon was embarrassing. Ms. Beddoes almost screaming at him and interrupting him continuously looked like the usual CH 4 interview. It reminded one of a great comedy recording of Peter Sellers,(Face to Face)album and sketch named the same.

[@marclacey2263]

These two women have a lot to say about bigotry, during the course of which they glibly display their own. At least they're trying.

[@peacemaker6662]

Don't know about anyone else. I was center left all my life. I voted remain in the referendum, mainly because I thought it was so hard to disentangle ourselves from the bureaucracy that is the EU. I watch as our Politicians (from all parties) have prevaricated and weaseled their way out of delivering on a democratic vote. Labour MP's, denouncing the result and demonizing the electorate of their own heartlands. When Tony Blair won I did not celebrate, he was a Tory under any other name. Corbyn is a died in the wool Communist. Every party in the UK think they can "virtue signal" their way into government. Bring on another referendum, it's out no matter what for me. If anyone can start a party that makes sense to me I'll vote for it, not holding my breath though!

[@joog730060]

Sums up my position pretty well. I am leaning toward the SDP.

[@gushutchinson8758]

HUNDRED QUID TICKETS!!?? BLOODY NORA

[@LusciousTwinkle]

Just brilliant. This video has given me hope and I hope Ill be able to attend next year.....I still call myself left-wing because I feel that Im not letting anyone take my lifelong identity away from me.... over my dead body...Some jumped up little SJW isnt going to force me to reclassify myself.

[@siheath3648]

Ella is absolutely bob on when she said saying you're a Lefty is just lazy now. It's used as a disclaimer for people to throw out before entering into any discussion, as if it covers them in a blanket of virtue and aside from that it's fucking irritating

[@GeneralZod99]

Just learned of your channel. This is the 3rd upload I have binged on today and your interview with Douglas Murray is up next. Subscribed and I suspect that your likes are going to get a modest +1 on most of your videos as I slowly digest your content.

[@elkabongg2716]

The claim that the panels at The Battle Of Ideas are chosen independently of their identity doesn't really hold up from what I have seen. Most of the discussion relating to women and gender are predominantly female. Non white ethnic groups are far more prevalent on discussion about race. It is good that you have people prepared to consider and present an argument from a perspective other than according to their own identity but it it does look a little like there is an attempt to load and steer the tone of the discussions. The problem is partly that in order to have the balance which is claimed it is very difficult in these emotive subjects to present the male or white perspective without being characterised on some level as mean or bigoted. Few are prepared to risk it are and able to carry off a discussion with full integrity effectively.

[@markkavanagh7377]

Hope the BoI debates end up on KZbin. Btw great chat.

[@gen21617]

Did Emma Whelan suggest that class politics no longer exists in 'a real way'. We could start with the deminishing of conditions of employment and work our way up to the lack of access to justice as an argument against that idea. It is precisely the reason there is so much anger about the status quo. Everyone has a discrimination tick box, except the unworthy of any identity you care to define.

[@marionreynolds7080]

When will this year’s Battle of Ideas appear on utube?

[@censorshipbites7545]

Ella is meh. She portrays herself as Center or Center-right in short-term hits, but long-term interviews inevitably reveal that she's Center-left. Claire Fox is an unapologetic lefty who I disagree with considerably but still absolutely love. She's the epitome of a classic Liberal.

[@censorshipbites7545]

@@marit50 Fox was told to condemn a 1993 statement by the Rev Commie Party, of which she was a member, excusing the bombing that year. 1) I don't like guilt by association Fox didn't commit the bombing, and she wasn't directly or even indirectly connected to it in any way. 2) We can label Fox a terrorist apologist - at the time. Is she forever irredeemable because of that? Is there no path to redemption or forgiveness? 3) If Fox is a terrorist apologist, then let's look at an actual terrorist as a yardstick. Nelson Mandela founded and led the armed wing of the ANC, which killed close to 100 innocent civilians in bombings alone (so that didn't include the killing and torture of informants, police, military, etc.). 4) I despise the current culture of demanding disavowals and condemnations. If Fox hasn't encouraged or justified bombings or the like in over 25 years (she supported the Good Fr Agrmt), I'm willing to accept that she's had a change of heart.

[@scarletpimpernel230]

Ella looks her usual sober, contemplative, and quasi-depressed self....

[@maltesephil]

I like having 2 guests on, as a patreon backer it's like a 2 for 1 special :)

[@kindnutritionist2672]

I am uninterested in someone's skin colour or gender, it is the content of your character that I'm interested in and that has weight.

[@honestjohn6418]

Agreed but unfortunately, the culture and society the left has gradually created since Stephen Lawrence and rapidly accelerated since Trayvon Martin was shot, is obsessed with race. The government, police and media care about race and we are heading into a time where white people are going to be an absolute minority everywhere. I don't care about anyones race but the culture and establishment in our brave new world cares about race so thoroughly, it makes it something we cannot avoid.

[@brother1ray]

Not very "obsessed with race" though, when it comes to crime statistics and tax contributions, you'll notice! These are always casually overlooked, strangely, LOL!

[@jackengland7117]

Your craven respect for diversity comes at the price of the death of your own people. You’ve been gas-lit by the controlled media, politicized police, institutions and corrupt establishment. No poll even taken wanted immigration at all. The in-group preference shown by African and Asian peoples' (Diane Abbot, Naz Shah, David Lammy) on the political stage highlight collective identities and historical grudges that will, in time, show no mercy or moral necessity to virtue signal about creating an inclusive society. What happens in fifty years’ time when native folk are a de facto minority and there are 100 David Lammys’ and 200 Naz Shahs’? What happens when whole regions demand (using the democratic process) autonomy and introduce Sharia Law? What measure of political import do you really think will be reserved for native people? We are currently ensuring our children never have a political voice in Britain again and will be demonized and marginalized into extinction. Examine your conscience.

[@honestjohn6418]

Jack England You paint the worst possible picture. Some might say hysterical. Others would say paranoid. Anyone in the mainstream would say racist. I would say that your worst case scenario is at the very least possible and it’s something that should be on the table to discuss. Unfortunately it’s mandatory not to countenance such possibilities. With regards to changing demographics, there’s only one hypothesis allowed. John Lennon’s Imagine. A majority black, Asian, Arab and Muslim Britain will be as British as Downtown Abbey and Dereck Trotter and a white British minority has nothing to fear. A Britain where white Brits are the minority is an improvement we should welcome. We don’t really exist or have any intrinsic value in our own right. Humans are interchangeable. But diversity is our strength 🤔🤔🤔🧐🧐🤔🤔🤔🧐🧐🧐

[@brother1ray]

Building our own scaffold for our own extinction...……………….Nice!

[@MavenPolitic]

I look forward to seeing you all at the Barbican!

[@karatechimp1]

Another great episode. Just glad they didn't do their usual Hello Fresh advert. Christ, those bits are so excruciating I have to have my buttocks surgically unclenched afterwards.

[@simonestreeter1518]

@Uncle Sam Ah, victims. Sad.

[@AG-tj8ew]

A really enjoyable discussion. Many thanks.

[@jeffsmith2283]

Fantastic interview. I hope we can get back to honest debate before the shit hits the fan. "People have to choose either we seek truth through a test of ideas or a test of strength. Everyone who suppresses someone else's speech is able to do so only because they're stronger" -- James Flynn

[@bfbf334]

Ella Whelan.....a lefty........but but.....shes lovely.

[@toserveman9317]

"Can Free Speech Save Rational Debate?" No.

[@carlbyronrodgers]

The Mr.Bannon part smells like virtue signaling. The translation of snowflakes is namby-pamby.

[@honestjohn6418]

I love Claire Fox and Ella Whelan, unfortunately, we have much bigger problems than Brexit and trans activism etc. They're distractions compared to the elephant in the room. There's something far more incendiary and far more urgent that needs talking about which is too hot, even for the Battle of Ideas to handle. What the Spiked, Triggernometry and IDW types miss, is that the facts on the ground have changed and in many ways they themselves are stuck in an outdated paradigm where they are desperately trying to avoid dealing with that elephant in the room. I hate racism and the BNP. I don't want to live in a white only country or deport people just for being non-white, and I don't think that the Jews are a Fifth Column. I find all of that not only nonsensical but abhorrent. e.g. I hate Nazis etc etc Mandatory throat clearing over. The SJWs understand something Ella and Claire don't. In the brave new world the left has created, sunlight isn't a good disinfectant. Any open and fair debate about white identity, for instance, is going to convince a lot, if not most white people; that not only do they exist but that they are under attack. Ten years ago, I would have distanced myself from anyone calling themselves a nationalist or god forbid, talking about "the great replacement", but today we have respectable academics and the Guardian admitting that countries like Britain and France will become majority minority in the next few decades. London, Leicester and soon to be Birmingham are already majority minority and Muhammad is the most popular boys name in the UK. Coupled with the open hostility to "whiteness" in the education system, media and Parliament and a racialised criminal justice system, I hate to admit it, but that means that on the point of mass immigration, supplanting indigenous Europeans, the dreaded far right were correct all along and those who denounced them as idiots and conspiracy theorists where wrong, all wrong. At least on that point. Sunlight is only the best disinfectant if something is wrong, but unfortunately, due to that hard work of our compassionate lefties, racists and far right wingers actually have the truth on their side on a whole raft of issues from Islam to replacement migration and anti white sentiment in our institutions. I don't think we should be rehabilitating the National Front or apologising to Nick Griffin but increasing numbers of ordinary, non-racist people are finding it impossible, in a culture obsessed with race, not to identify as white. Sunlight won't disinfect that. Yet anyone who identifies as white and would like to stop white people becoming minorities in their own countries are frozen out of the debate. Even by genuinely open minded people like Claire, Ella, Francis and Konstantin! Despite all of these changes, we still are in a place where the only way white identity can be discussed, is through the lens of those who reject white identity or the concept of an indigenous English/European group, in favour of a strictly individualistic ideal which no longer makes sense now that our police force, government, BBC and wider media look at everything through a racial lens. White minorities are coming and intersectionality is embedded in our police, media and a large chunk of the political class, therefore it seems impossible to deal with the most important issue of our time; (whether indigenous Europeans get to remain majorities in their own nations) whilst continuing to shun everyone and anyone who identifies as white and advocates for the protection of indigenous Europeans. Unfortunately, even the few who are willing to have this conversation, people like Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Claire Fox, Spiked, the Triggernometry lads etc, are careful to distance themselves from and avoid talking to, anyone who advocates for or identifies as an indigenous white European. SJWs no platform anyone who is willing to discuss white identity because they know sunlight is useless on that topic in the racialised world they have created. Spiked, Triggernometry and the Battle of Ideas, seem to still think that sunlight would perish an argument for white indigenous identity but quite sensibly shun anyone who doesn't reject white identity because they already deal with enough accusations of being far right, without chatting to people who identify as white. But the SJWs are correct, sunlight is useless on this subject in 2019. This topic makes me feel profoundly uncomfortable as well, but sooner or later, in a culture obsessed with race, the conversation is going to have to include white people who don't deny their own existence. It seems that we haven't reached that point yet, but it is going to come soon and the current insistence on rejecting all such people as knuckle dragging racists, is going to seem like a kind of ostrich like madness.

[@honestjohn6418]

Jim fallow Islam is a symptom not the problem. Things have progressed beyond the Clash of Civilisations hypothesis. We are now at the stage of, do we exist and should we be allowed to have our own territory at all? Currently, everyone with any reach, including Spiked and the Battle of Ideas, would not want to have that conversation with anyone who said yes to both of those propositions. We could stop immigration from Muslim countries tomorrow but if we still bought in 350,000 people a year from Christian Africa, Hindu India and China, the cataclysm would remain. The far more important and difficult, existential question is, do white Europeans exist, (most rational people would have to say yes), and if so, do they deserve territory or should they sacrifice their territory in a utopian and unilateral experiment in universalism? Most ordinary people, white and black, would say an ethnic group like the English exist and deserve to remain the majority in their own country. Most of the intelligencia, almost everyone at the BBC, in every school and university, in Parliament, in every television studio and publication; including Spiked, and heterodox thinkers such as IDW types, would say.......it’s an idiotic question. Who are the English really? Angles? Saxons? Vikings? Normans? Germans, French and Scandinavians? A mongrel breed. Aren’t we a nation of immigrants? ARE YOU SAYING BLACK PEOPLE CAN’T BE BRITISH YOU BIGOT? A conversation ender which essentially boils down to the fact that, according to the establishment and intelligencia, right up to the Battle of Ideas, the indigenous English don’t exist in any meaningful way and coming white English minority status is a non-issue. A non-issue only idiotic racists care about. Conversation over. Islam is a side issue. It’s important but we have far bigger fish to fry and currently our intelligencia, including the good people at Spiked and the Battle of Ideas, would rather not have the conversation, if it involves giving white people who don’t reject their identity, a fair hearing. Spiked and the Battle of Ideas are not afraid of discussing Islam but discussing white identity in any other way than to say it’s unimportant, is unthinkable. You can safely say that whatever our heterodox intelligencia are afraid to touch, is probably ground zero. The elephant in the room and the live rail, so to speak. That’s the thing which needs to be discussed more than anything; and in our racialised society with its mandatory, perpetual mass immigration policy, sunlight isn’t going to disinfect the subject. Ella is very unlikely to obliterate an argument which says white English indigenous people exist and deserve to remain the majority in their own country. PS: I reiterate. None of this means you can’t be black and British or that we need a white only country and need to start deportations. There’s nothing intrinsically racist in accepting the existence of a people and their right to remain the majority in their own territory.

[@brother1ray]

This: "an argument which says white English indigenous people exist and deserve to remain the majority in their own country. ", should not even be an argument, it should be a democratic CHOICE, if as I suspect, most of the indigenous English want to remain a majority in their historical homeland! Or maybe, just maybe, the Native Americans wanted to become a vanishing minority living in 'Reservations' in the land them alone once roamed freely, LOL!

[@honestjohn6418]

brother1ray Well it isn’t a democratic choice is it. It’s mandatory as all major parties support perpetual mass immigration and denounce disagreement as racist. As for the native Americans, surely that’s an argument against a population letting themselves become a minority. Either that or the old lefty trick of pointing to an injustice centuries old and using that as a reason why white people have no right to argue today. Two wrongs makes a who cares. Well bollox to that.

[@brother1ray]

Then you need to find one that doesn't, or start one! The Tories have lied and failed to reduce immigration to 'sustainable levels', though still around 100,000 a year net! So clearly they can't be trusted on mass immigration anymore than Labour who started it with Blair. As to the Native Americans, I brought their fate up as that's what awaits you in the near future, and as a side note: Those "First Peoples" who welcomed or tolerated the invaders have disappeared entirely, while those who resisted the hardest and most violently, like the Sioux and the Comanche for example, are still around in their 'Reservations', though a shadow of their former selves...……………...Just a thought!

[@ega9499]

Best, most thoughtful comment here. Ironically for all that Tommy Robinson is labelled far right he too is reluctant to back the ethno nationalist view, though he has interviewed generation identity people and supported them in various ways. But he’s always quick to clarify that he does it to support free speech and he’s not sure if he agrees with them and he thinks Islam, not immigration, is the problem. So the irony is the most infamous “far-right” figure in Britain Tommy Robinson doesn’t support ethno nationalism himself! Let alone white supremacy! 😂 For myself I feel the same unease and conflict that you, and most decent humans, feel at talking about race, but yeah that’s why we are in the mess we are in because no one wanted to think about it, let alone talk about it. I used to assume we would become a melting pot and all get on great, because race is irrelevant. Ironically it is the left wing’s continual insistence that people are are at heart a bunch of racists and that minorities are oppressed made me start worrying what will happen when we become a minority? The reason why a lot of the West works in terms of reasonable racial harmony (no large scale race riots) is because the constant flow of immigrants from various places means no one ethnicity dominates, and they usually have little power as they have low paid jobs and a poor command of English. Fast forward to their grandchildren who speak perfect English and have good jobs, if any one group becomes a majority, or more dominant, then everyone else will suffer at their hands. If that group is willing to join forces with other ethnicities that hold the same creed or religion then I think we can guess that TR might have been in the right track. The sad thing is there is a good chance TR will be assassinated, and if that happens his followers will have had enough, not only will all he’ll break loose but they might feel that they have nothing to lose in backing a real white supremacist instead. And the history books will look back on TR as a moderate who could have brought about peaceful change, but his untimely death led to race wars. This is sadly how I see things evolving and I hope that my doomsday prediction is wrong. The thing to say to your woke white friends (assuming they let you speak), “do you believe minorities are oppressed?” When they answer yes, then say, “So what do you think will happen to your grandchildren when they are the white minority?” The only other way to stop racial war is for a scientist to find and remove the “racist gene”so we can all look at each others as humans, not as races, and therefore peacefully coexist. Or perhaps for us to all interbreed with each other and truly become a coffee coloured race. That is happening already a little and may lead to harmony, but I wonder if people in the future will look back on white people like we think of the dodo, as some exotic creature it would have been nice to have known.

[@honestjohn6418]

Francis is losing weight. Good work fella

[@defenstrator4660]

Well I'm not sure how it can hurt it.

[@Spiritina8]

Positive news does not sell, if it did we could hopefully reduce the bias? Not sure how this could happen

[@rcordiner]

Ella looks like the reincarnation of Lizzie Siddall

[@marionreynolds7080]

Be brave Francis and Konstantin - invite George Galloway.

[@triggerpod]

We have!

[@NIK2181]

Great discussion it's refreshing to hear people who are as sick of identity politics as I am. Love this channel ❤

[@robertdevlin3754]

Ella Whelan's firey red box squatting over you

[@scarletpimpernel230]

Well, well, well-you two are doing FOURSOMES now....

[@markncl100]

My goodness, what a truly thrilling debate this was. Honestly, gripping!

[@Johnconno]

Can rational thought save free speech?

[@322messenger]

the ginger 1 looked a bit bored somebody should remembered she was their