GIBRALTAR | Britain's Unsolvable Dispute?

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Well, what did you expect me to cover this week!? :-) I wasn't going to do this for a while. But the surprise English advancement to the Euro final against Spain made this impossible not to do! Seriously though, what are your thoughts on this? Is this a dispute that has just to be managed in perpetuity? Or is there a formula to settle it? Perhaps the Gibraltarians will eventually give up on British rule as the effects of Brexit wear them down. As always, let me know what you think.

[@Prebaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Bosnia, as always :D that Resolution breakdown is long overdue professor, if you don't mind me saying!

[@Richard1A2B]

Then you should have made the video last year when the Lionesses won the Euros against Spain 😉 Everyone forgets the ladies have been there first.

[@olliestudio45]

I don't get why Gibraltar is seen as so strategic when Tarifa and Ceuta stick out more into the strait.

[@pedroecijaserrano6723]

​@@olliestudio45 It is for the UK, as it would otherwise not have a presence in the region. Trade through the Suez canal goes through the straight of Gibraltar too. It is not strategic for Spain though, as it has other options. The issue for Spain is different, as if France controlled the Cliffs of Dover, the UK would naturally want to take it back.

[@tedcrilly46]

@@olliestudio45 I think its just people parroting for the most part. In sail and steamboat times that would have been a very valuable spot. And thats what got written down, and its been an echo ever since. Some people seem to assume its right on the strait/tip. Although I suppose it does still have some middling strategic value. Never know when these little places come in useful, the little UK airbases on Cyprus are looking useful recently.

[@Catmint309]

You always release these on Fridays around the end of the work day here in the U.S., which means I always get to start my weekend with them. 🎉😎🎉

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Great stuff! Thanks. 🙏🏻👏👏👏😀

[@mussajavdan8203]

Well Dr. Lindsay deleted my comments like always while we have another opinion than him . I write my opinion very politely again Dr. Its is very clear that the wish of the Gibraltar citizens have to bee respected . But it also have to come with consequences. You can not vote to stay in British colony but simultaneously have the benefit as an EU member state ,and the profits of the Spanish territory surrounding you. I believe Spain have been very soften regarding the issue . I would force a very stronger policy so you just wish to be apart of Spain

[@hypotheticalaxolotl]

@@mussajavdan8203 a) it was probably youtube, not the channel creator, deleting your comments b) even if it was the channel operator, honestly if you're gonna spam the same thing across all the Top Comments, comments the content of which doesn't seem to actually matter to you since you're just copy+pasting and not modifying them to fit, then I'd probably delete them too. It's annoying.

[@audience2]

​@@mussajavdan8203A policy of trying to "force" the Gibraltarians is likely to produce the opposite result.

[@Pikaling3408]

Great timing for that video with the Euro 2024 final.

[@bilic8094]

Hopefully England could win this one they didn't play great throughout the tournament but last game they showed the team is talented at all positions I hope southgate could bring it home the media has destroyed that guy.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Indeed. I had been working on the script for this for a few weeks, but planned to do it another time. And then England get through to the final and there seemed like no better time to tackle it! :-)

[@rodox2832]

The winner takes Gibraltar

[@biddyboy1570]

@@rodox2832 thought they already had?

[@ABCantonese]

Good thing I checked the comments before saying the same thing!

[@Jeracraft]

Hi random Minecraft youtuber here, but also as a Gibraltarian myself, the tension with Spain is a constant worry. Here in Gibraltar, we all have a strong sense of pride in being Gibraltarian and British. It’s not just about a flag or a title; it’s about our history too, our identity, and the rights we’ve held onto for generations. But there’s always that undercurrent of worry. With Spain pressing claims on Gibraltar, it feels like we’re always under the microscope, having to justify who we are and what we want. with a population of just around 35,000 people it feels almost helpless against the "bigger bully", especially when we hear political rhetoric from across the border that suggests our voices and wishes might not matter. And while Spain and the UK sometimes talk about cooperation, it’s hard not to feel like we’re just some bargaining chip in a larger game. All we want is to live peacefully without the constant question of our sovereignty looming over us. Being British isn’t just a preference for most Gibraltarians-it’s part of our very identity, way of life, and no amount of pressure will change that. Spain continually resorts to tactics that seem intended to make our daily lives harder, as if that will somehow sway us to their side. Long border queues are a classic example; these arbitrary delays can mean hours of waiting just to cross over a line, and the worst part is, it mostly affects their own people as thousands of Spaniards cross the border daily for work here in Gibraltar. These bullying tactics aren’t helping Spain’s cause; if anything, they strengthen our resolve to remain British. I would also like to mention that we have a very peaceful and diverse community, I hear the same argument all the time that "OfCourse they voted to remain British, they are all from Britain" and this is just pure nonsense, my grandad is Spanish and Most Gibraltarians are a mix of Genoese, British, Spanish, Maltese, and Portuguese descent. We have a large Moroccan, Indian and Jewish community and not a single soul here wants to be part of Spain, especially not after they separated our family's when their dictator franco decided to close the boarder.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@Jeracraft Gibraltar also voted 96% to remain in the EU. Clearly being outside the EU is not in Gibraltar's interests and to retain the benefits of memerbership will mean doing away with the frontier with all that it entails or alternatively going back in time to third country status. The talks are stuck because Gibraltar wants both in typical British fashion, have the cake and eat it.

[@Sandra-r1l]

Estás muy resentido , en España son malos y nos tratan mal . Muy infantil , es más sencillo no nos dejamos aplastar . Vosotros elegisteis ahora arreglaros .

[@Tybold63]

@@CarlosRomero-u6h exactly, would be nice to see some more humble British comments for a change😉.

[@pedroecijaserrano6723]

It is a good summary, but a bit one-sided (I do not mean that in a bad way). For example, Gibraltar wasn't held by a succession of foreign powers (Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, and the Ummayyad Caliphate) without any intervention from the locals until 1462.For the vast majority of antiquity, it belonged to a local Iberian tribe (Turdetani). When Gibraltar was taken in the 1700s,the locals were expelled by the invading troops. They were later replaced with people loyal to the UK, hence the lack of Spanish identity nowadays. Common then, but now we call it ethnic cleansing. Nevertheless, I agree that regardless of how we got here, there is no point in ignoring the will of the Gibraltarians. In relation to the Treaties of Utretch, the nuance is that they refer to "the rock and the castle," not including the ithsmus or the surrounding waters. The issue with that is the fishing rights, which Spain argues were never ceded, and the UK claims naturally follow from possession of the land. This is literally a daily headache in the area. Also, in mid or late 1800s (I dont remember the exact date), disease was going rampant through the barracks in Gibraltar. Spain allowed, on an interim basis, that new barracks were built on the ithsmus, to separate the ill from the healthy, and better deal with the outbreak. The UK never returned the ithsmus as per the agreement. That piece of land was not included in the Treaties of Utretch, but taken by the UK after a Spanish gesture of goodwill, which naturally bothers Spain to no end. In addition, Gibraltar's airport was built on the ithsmus, and extending over the water (that Spain maintains was never ceded), so you see how the thing itches to Spanish people familiar with the topic. There is a UN resolution from the 1960s requiring Gibraltar to be decolonised, but it was obviously ignored. In relation to Schengen, and border control issues, the UK didn't join Schengen, therefore, Gibraltar didn't either. Gibraltar has complained to EU's Frontex many times about excessive controls on the border, but Frontex has always ruled that they are proportionate and consistent with a non-Schengen border. Many issues arose by Gibraltar's understandable zeal with keeping authority over its surrounding waters, which Spain equates with providing safe harbour to smugglers and drug dealers pursued by the Spanish civil guard. There were also issues in the past with oil tankers anchoring in Gibraltar to operate as floating petrol stations, which ended up polluting Spanish waters due to frequent spills. As it is now, Gibraltar and the Spanish side (La Línea) have a situation of co-dependence, they need each other. Brexit has dealt a terrible hand to Gibraltar. A few years ago some colleagues who live there said that, after Brexit, they get a weekly ship from the UK, restocking M&S, but the shelves are empty again by the evening. What keeps the place supplied is the Spanish supermarket. They also depend on Spanish hospitals for healhcare, and many Gibraltarians actually lived in Spain because housing in Gibraltar is so scarce that it became prohibitive. The place's strategic value is no more for as long as Spain and UK are in NATO. Rota, in nearby Cadiz, is the best NATO base in the area, and the most used. Even the Royal Navy uses it primarily over Gibraltar. Ironically, Cadiz was the original target of the Anglo-Dutch force that landed in Gibraltar. They were repelled, dug in, and met the end of the war still there. I hope you find the extra information that I have added interesting, maybe to have a better understanding of why it is such an issue for some Spaniards.

[@stewatparkpark2933]

It is common practice to divide text into paragraphs .

[@gbickell]

Nice info! Thank you for taking the time to fill in some gaps.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Very good point, well made! Sadly, this is essentially European history in a nutshell. Almost no borders have been created without war and ethnic cleansing.

[@leor7870]

The information fails to point out that under the UN convention on the Law of the Seas specifically demarcate the sea boundaries around Gibraltar, which was adhered to by the Franco dictatorship.

[@silliestsususagest3276]

Also Gibraltar isn't a colony it's a British Overseas Territory

[@tylerpartridge8205]

I always find it funny how Spain🇪🇸has such a problem with Gibraltar🇬🇮but when Morocco🇲🇦complains of Ceuta and Melilla - it falls on deaf ears 🤷‍♂️

[@crose7412]

Spain's argument about both Ceuta and Melilla is that they were seized before Morocco came into being so therefore it has right to control the territory.

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

Ceuta and Melilla should go back to Morocco since Spain wants to play that game. 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@demonke7829]

Cuesta and Melilla have been Spanish far longer than Gibraltar was british as well as th fact Moroccans are grateful to Spain for generous ally ceding large amounts of Spanish land in africa to Morocco

[@heycidskyja4668]

@@demonke7829 So the Morroccans should be grateful to Spain for occupying their land? Pull the other one!

[@eamonreidy9534]

​@@demonke7829Gibraltar has been British far longer than it has been Spanish

[@EstrellaPolux]

"Gibraltar was taken and retained when we were not at war with Spain, and it was retained contrary to every law of morality and honour. " John Bright 1869

[@jimbo6059]

Bollox. The terms of the treaty state that it was war spoils. Ceded by Spain to the UK in perpetuity.

[@BlackLabelExpat]

Spain: We need our territory back UK: What about Melilla and Ceuta Spain: We are not talking about that right now

[@eamonreidy9534]

@@abbofun9022 Gibraltar has been under UK control longer than Spanish control

[@abbofun9022]

@@eamonreidy9534 the fact you managed to hold on to it for so long doesn’t make it any less a theft

[@Randomstuffs261]

@@abbofun9022 It's not a theft if they literally gave it to you

[@eamonreidy9534]

@@abbofun9022 I'm not British. Maybe Britain and Spain should return it to a caliphate, or the Turks, or a reformed emirate of Grenada, or maybe the Roman Empire. You irredentist type people are silly

[@georgiewalker5826]

@@abbofun9022 Look it has been British for 300 years, people living there want to be British, that should really be the end of the matter tbh

[@casperghst42]

As for Schengen, rememeber that the UK never was a part of it, which would then raise the question why the Rock should be part of it.

[@timoakley277]

Geography is kind of important......

[@lqr824]

It doesn't necessarily follow that every part of a nation needs the same rules. Denmark includes the Faroe Islands which aren't in the EU, for instance, mainly because they don't want to allow all EU nations to over-fish the Faroe waters.

[@casperghst42]

@@lqr824 I know about Faroe Islands, they are covered with the Nordic Community, and Denmark cover travel into schengen. But if they travel to fx. Germany directly, then they need to show passport.

[@casperghst42]

@@timoakley277 not really, Gibraltar is a UK area, which is "within" UK borders, when you decide to leave Gibraltar then you (as you must with you travel from the UK mainland into Schengen) show passport. The only exception is Nother Ireland to RAI, but there the passport control have moved to between UK mainland and (North) Ireland. The UK need a special agreement with Spain (and the rest of the EU) and then there has to be a passport control when you travel from Gibraltar to mainland UK and vise versa. Nothing comes for free.

[@davidrubioroldan]

No directamente español

[@ahones2255]

Gibraltar is nothing other than a non-autonomous territory, subject to the decolonisation process, in two words: a colony. In 1963 it was included in the UN list of territories to be decolonised and it has not left there. Since that year, therefore, the Special Committee of the United Nations in charge of examining the situation regarding the application of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, the so-called Committee of 24, has it among the territories under its jurisdiction. In 1964 this Committee reached a consensus on the situation in the non-self-governing territory of Gibraltar, urging the United Kingdom and Spain to begin talks without delay in order to find a negotiated solution. The following year the General Assembly endorsed the terms of the consensus and invited both nations to begin said conversations. Year after year the UN has maintained this mandate to the two states, which therefore remains fully in force. It is also interesting to note that the UN urges decolonisation in accordance with the principle of territorial integrity and not by virtue of any supposed right of self-determination of a hypothetical Gibraltarian "people" (in fact, in 1967 it condemned the referendum held in Gibraltar). It does establish, however, that the interests of the population of Gibraltar must be heard. For that they have an excellent channel: the British Government. the negotiation on sovereignty corresponds exclusively to LondonSecondly, Spain has reiterated to the United Kingdom on countless occasions its willingness to resume these conversations. And I say return because in the Lisbon Declaration of 1980, both countries proposed to resolve the problem of Gibraltar in a spirit of friendship and in accordance with the relevant resolutions of the United Nations. Four years later, the Brussels Declaration corroborated the Lisbon Declaration and established a process to implement what was agreed. Unfortunately, the UK decided not to go ahead.

[@mr.battledroid2195]

Before British occupation, there was 4000 Spanish families in the rock, 3 days after the occupation, only 3 were left. The Spanish population was replaced by foreigners that did not belong there, what some call Gibraltarians these days are not actual gibraltarians, they are British people placed on Spanish soil, what Britain did is called ethnic genocide. I’m all up for keeping brits in Gibraltar once it’s given back to Spain, even to give them their own autonomous region, but they must comprehend the rock must be returned to Spain.

[@thostaylor]

Catalans and Minorcans (24%), Genoese and Italians (20%), Portuguese (10%), Maltese, Sephardic Jews and Royalist French. In what were these 'British people placed on Spanish soil'?

[@mr.battledroid2195]

@@thostaylor catalans and minorcans are spaniards, and those percentaged don't even make up for all of the population.

[@thostaylor]

@@mr.battledroid2195 The other 45% are 'other', including but not exclusively British. So you're now admitting that wasn't ethnic genocide. Thank you.

[@thostaylor]

@@mr.battledroid2195 The other 45% are 'other', including but not exclusively British. So you're now admitting that wasn't ethnic genocide. Thank you.

[@greattobeadub]

How about Gibraltar introducing VAT like in the UK and EU? Also stopping cigarettes being smuggled into Spain would be nice.

[@mussajavdan8203]

Well Dr. Lindsay deleted my comments like always while we have another opinion than him . I write my opinion very politely again Dr. Its is very clear that the wish of the Gibraltar citizens have to bee respected . But it also have to come with consequences. You can not vote to stay in British colony but simultaneously have the benefit as an EU member state ,and the profits of the Spanish territory surrounding you. I believe Spain have been very soften regarding the issue . I would force a very stronger policy so you just wish to be apart of Spain

[@Richard-yd1ws]

@@greattobeadub They impose a purchase tax More cigarettes are smuggled into Algeciras And more drugs into La Linea Hth

[@truxton1000]

I’m sure smuggling is not an official policy. What about if Spain removed vat? Several countries have no vat, it’s a sign of intelligent governing.

[@Richard-yd1ws]

@@truxton1000 It is actually a EU requirement

[@greattobeadub]

@@truxton1000 EU law requires VAT, as does the UK. If Gibraltar wants to act like a big duty free shop let it. That’s a choice. We can make the choice of closing the border. Take back control as it were.

[@micupedro]

It is foolish to argue about Gibraltar. That the Treaty of Utrecht be complied with: total land isolation and closure of the border. No water, no electricity, no telephone lines from Spain. Any ship that docks in Gibraltar can never dock again in a Spanish port. Return of the Isthmus and the airport illegally built there, since it was never ceded in the Treaty of Utrecht. Compliance with the United Nations Resolutions demanding that Great Britain decolonise and return Gibraltar to Spain. That the international legality of the United Nations be complied with. Otherwise, even if 1000 years pass, the time will come when the United Kingdom will fall. As long as there is an invaded Gibraltar, there can be no sincere friendship, only friendship of convenience and hypocrisy in the mutual relationship.

[@deckersutja9391]

This is the typical spanish Inquisition type of comment. It comes from the liver (not to mention nearby another part of the human body) rather from the brain.

[@jimbo6059]

Get over yourself. You would have to repeal the Treaty of Utrecht for anything to happen, this is the spoils of war. you and your allies lost that war, We gave you the Balearics back but Gibraltar wants to remain British so it will be British. This is not a case of decolonisation it is and international treaty.

[@kw2142]

haha nice one man, with the football final coming up this is good time to get this out

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Indeed! I really couldn’t do anything else. Luckily, I had been working on the script for a while and so had it handy! :-)

[@Nemo-vg7sr]

Maybe it's a bit shocking nowadays but what about following international law for a change? As you've mentioned in passing the UN has long identified Gibraltar as a territory to be decolonised and returned to Spain. It's not a matter for the Gibraltarians to decide more than for the Spaniards or the Brits. Decolonisation and return to Spain is the ultimate aim under internationla law for obvious geographical and historical reasons.

[@flashtrash7830]

Those "passing" measures at the UN you refer to were not adopted by the UK (each country has a choice.) But Spain did adopt the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea gives the UK Gov rights over the Isthmus.

[@martinbusler7416]

Excellent history of Gibraltar.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much.

[@atollking201]

You conveniently forgot to mention the part of Article 10 of the Peace of Utrecht that very clearly stipulates that the territory of Gibraltar is not ceded, but only the settlement in Gibraltar: _But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kind of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction and without any open communication by land with the country round about._ In other words, the territory never ceased to be Spanish, only the settlement became British, in some sort of extraterritorial arrangement, like military bases and embassies. It is also evident that the territory was not ceded simply because the treaty does not mention any border between the Spanish territory and the alleged British territory, which demarcation is still a problem even today. At least you cited the part that very clearly stipulates that in case the United Kingdom wishes to alienate the settlement (not the territory, the wording is consistent), then Spain has priority of retrocession. The United Kingdom has already relinquished the territory by signing the Charter of the United Nations in 1945, where non-self-governing territories are assigned a new legal personality that limits the sovereignty of their respective states and the respective states are treated as mere administering powers. This means that, even if Spain did cede Gibraltar itself and not just the settlement there, which is not the case in the least, then the territory should be retroceded to Spain, albeit with the well-being and self-governance of Gibraltarians guaranteed within Spain. You could have also mentioned that the United Nations General Assembly resolutions also describe this situation as a violation of the Spanish territorial integrity and that the United Kingdom only annexed the territory as a colony at the beginning of the 19th century, violating the treaty with Spain that did not cede the territory, but only the settlement. You also make reference to self-determination, when you already know that self-determination does not apply when there are violations of territorial integrity. The International Court of Justice and many international jurists have described this as a deliberate misunderstanding of the principle, in fact, the United Nations General Assembly resolutions also determined that the any plebiscite with the aim of applying self-determination to this case is a contravention of other resolutions. One cannot just annex a territory and then make the population decide, it would establish extremely dangerous precedents for international law, simply because it would legitimize other similar situations all over the world. What is more, the reintegration of Chagos to Mauritius in accordance to international law without asking the Chagossian population confirms that the United Kingdom is more than aware about the real mechanism of the right of peoples to self-determination. Do not get me wrong though, self-determination is a peremptory norm, so Gibraltarians and Chagossians do enjoy the right to self-determination, as any other population, however, their self-determination is one and the same with that of the Spanish and the Mauritians, simply because they are living in Spain and Mauritius respectively. Spain is not clean either though. I am not talking about Ceuta and Melilla, those are rightful Spanish territories that are sometimes erroneously treated as usurped Moroccan territories, even though Morocco ceded them to Spain, or as non-self-governing territories, even though Spain has always treated Ceuta and Melilla as integral parts of Spain enjoying the same rights as the rest of the Spanish population. The same with the Canary Islands. I am actually talking about Olivenza, which was ceded from Portugal to Spain after a war and then Spain agreed to return it and never did.

[@drmccoy33]

England: "Let us win the Euros and we will give you Gibraltar." Spain: "I' will get back to you Monday"

[@valuetraveler2026]

you joke but this is modern soccer

[@riskinhos]

@@valuetraveler2026 football

[@goldenaye3]

Lmao! !

[@thomassummerhill6357]

Gibraltar doesn’t belong to england. it’s British

[@quazarKiragon]

@thomassummerhill6357 technically it's overseas territories of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, so its a sovereign territory essentially apart of the United Kingdom even though its not geographically linked, but does make you wonder why Spain has a hard on to try and claim it as much as they do, but I guess it's the same with the falklands

[@MartinKillips]

Refreshingly straightforward and informative.

[@DudeWatIsThis]

"It was inhabited by neanderthals." Still is.

[@ianc8054]

Dispute... surely not? The treaty of Utrecht (1713) has some pretty final key words... "for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever." The territory has been British for longer than it was Spanish.

[@marcosvidal4940]

it didn't include 'sovereignty'

[@BuckDanny2314]

These are diplomatic terms with little meaning. Remember each of these treaties back then stated there would be "perpetual friendship" between the former enemies, who nevertheless frequently fought each other a few years after the treaty. So much for parchment garantees...

[@MrTangolizard]

@@BuckDanny2314that still doesn’t change the fact that it’s British

[@BuckDanny2314]

@@MrTangolizard Did I say otherwise? Of course it's a British territory for now, nobody disputes this.

[@MrTangolizard]

@@BuckDanny2314 “diplomatic terms with little meaning” well they mean a lot to the people who live there

[@majorronaldmandell7835]

Thank you so much! I was hazy on the Gibralter situation.

[@VladVexler]

Thank you so much James!

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thanks Vlad! I hope all is well.

[@mussajavdan8203]

Well Dr. Lindsay deleted my comments like always while we have another opinion than him . I write my opinion very politely again Dr. Its is very clear that the wish of the Gibraltar citizens have to bee respected . But it also have to come with consequences. You can not vote to stay in British colony but simultaneously have the benefit as an EU member state ,and the profits of the Spanish territory surrounding you. I believe Spain have been very soften regarding the issue . I would force a very stronger policy so you just wish to be apart of Spain

[@DwynNWynns]

Britain don't have a Gibraltar "problem". Spain do.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@DwynNWynns They will if Spain shuts the airspace around the illegal built airport and enforce strictly the 3rd country status with the Gibraltarians at the frontier.

[@yagotd]

To the people comparing this to Ceuta and Melilla, both where spanish before morocco was formed as a country, gibraltar was spanish before.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Sorry, but that’s not really an argument. But any reasonable account, it is naturally part of Morocco, just as you’d argue that Gibraltar is naturally a part of Spain. But, of course, if they aren’t part of Morocco, then the same applies to Gibraltar. Besides, Gibraltar was ceded to Britain by treaty. Look at the map of Europe at the time. It was completely different. The current European borders were mostly decided by treaties. Are you proposing that they should all be rescinded because a country has a claim to historical territory it lost?

[@yagotd]

@@JamesKerLindsay If a treaty doesn't close that right to future claims, of course every country has the right to claim past territories with where they share history, Culture AND traditions in common. The country that has a right to claim Ceuta AND Melilla are Siria or Iraq, not Morocco wich are the countries descendent of the olmey AND Abasi caliphates from wich they were at the time.

[@yagotd]

@@JamesKerLindsay Ceuta and melilla a natural part of morocco? they never were to begin with, they have been spanish more time than the existance of the country, and im reading a lot of coments even ones you "love" that say because Gibraltar has been more time being English than spanish, the english have more right to it... Its is sad that in the 21st century Great bretain says its allied with spain while keeping a colony in its territoy wich uses against them constantly, and even the UN said it should be decolonized.

[@user-cm9pt8bo3l]

When a supposed British person appears in this discussion talking about Ceuta, you already know that they have no real arguments.

[@Mauri7782]

​@@yagotdmoroccans created spain and portugal they are your ancestors

[@IAmTheOnlyLucas]

Great video Professor. Historical claims frequently prove to be an especially messy aspect of international relations. It irks me that the UN is adamant about their wishes on respecting the will of local populations, except where the local populations are of European descent.

[@James-ip8xs]

UN is ideologically captured and it's positions on many issues should be disputed.

[@veronicaroach3667]

I think it matters what the 'locals' want. They are the ones who have to deal with the implications of any changes. I suspect that on a purely human level their feelings are not based on anything really heavy duty, largely about pride in who they think they are ! And the Brits are particularly belligerent about their status IMO. I'm a Brit myself. So while the technical details might be annoying, I say leave well alone & deal with it. The very same Brits who get nervous over their ownership of places are quite happy to buy a holiday home in any of those other countries, so the arguments are a little irrational ! Of course if we take 'the locals' argument to it's ultimate conclusion we would have to listen to a lot of different groups arguing for their 'rights' in various places & governments tend to stomp on such claims to keep control !

[@thiloreichelt4199]

It migth be even that the locals' wishes are based on economic reasoning, as it was presumably for the Falkland Islands 2013. However. even that would be valid as the UN does not second guess the will od the locals.

[@TomTomicMic]

The UN is not answering the bigger questions of Ukraine, South Philippine seas and such like as Russia and China pose a bigger threat to Europe and the World at present. Spain is petulant about Gibraltar like the Argentinians are for the Falklands, they don't want to invest anything into the Island/ Peninsula they just want to take it for nowt!?!

[@leestimpson1838]

Gibraltar is obviously part of Spain, occupied by another nation.

[@jaccrystal6993]

And the sovereignty of Crimea should be decided on the basis of self determination, too?

[@antoniescargo1529]

They already did.

[@Maria-ig1bd]

Exactly. Referendum results show 99% in favor of remaining Russian.

[@mukkaar]

It's quite different, unless the government of the country agrees no part of that country can just separate. In fact, that would be undemocratic if the rest of the country doesn't agree to that. That same goes for autonomous regions and whatnot, unless there's some other agreement in place.

[@brucealanwilson4121]

@@Maria-ig1bd If you believe that it was valid.

[@everTriumph]

The land is within Ukraine's international borders.

[@JJ-wj6un]

Very insightful and interesting. Learning a lot to understand the history of this tiny plot of island.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much!

[@EmmaMaySeven]

When I compare Gibraltar to the similar situation in Northern Ireland, I feel that the same principles leads to radically different outcomes. I can imagine the population of Northern Ireland one day voting for reunion with the Republic of Ireland. I also know that the Republic respects the people of Northern Ireland in their right to make that decision. But I can't ever see Gibraltar voting themselves into Spain, nor that Spain will genuinely respect their decision not to join. (On a personal level, I really dislike when national leaders put historical claims over and above the rights of people living in the area. Unless that history is very recent or still has deeply negative consequences today (I can imagine such an example but won't name it), I don't respect people who do this. History doesn't have feelings and can't be offended by the present. We should concentrate on fixing the moral wrongs of today, not the perceived wrongs of the past.)

[@rapier1954]

You have decided the two are legitimately comparable under international law but they are not.

[@SnorriTheLlama]

⁠@@rapier1954You can always compare the two cases, whether or not international law aligns with your viewpoint

[@mnk9073]

Why on earth would you ask the transplants? That's like me and three mates occupying your garden and then holding a referendum amongst us four if we want to keep it or return it to you. It's your garden and we're occupying it, nothing changes that regardles if it has been 8 days or 800 years.

[@leor7870]

​@mnk9073 Well, by your analysis, we should redraw all Europe boundaries then.

[@mnk9073]

@@leor7870 Those forced upon the local people by a foreign power, yes absolutely.

[@lordgeminismagno7360]

Jhon Bright, político británico, 16 de Noviembre de 1811, 27 de Marzo de 1889. Rochdale, Lancashire Declara que "El Peñón fué tomado y retenido por Inglaterra cuando no estabamos en guerra con España y su apropiación fué contraria a todas las leyes de la moral y del honor"

[@ticnatz]

After years of wanting to, I finally got to visit Gibraltar twice in March of this year. What an interesting place.....

[@2Gales]

Watching this video I learned that the Utrecht treaty clearly says "property" and not "sovereignty". This was shocking to me. Later, it mentions the "sale" of the property, giving Spain priority to buy it. It seems clear to me that property does not imply sovereignty, as I own property in other countries but those are still under the sovereignty of those countries. The same happens with property of states abroad, e.g. a building with land, does not imply sovereignty. Thanks for the information.

[@arfurascii2232]

"The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever." - (A) it's one sovereign yielding land to another sovereign, (B) to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever. Neither A nor B apply to your property. You are not the supreme authority over your land.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@arfurascii2232 Does that mean if Britain becomes a Republic the deal if off ?

[@arfurascii2232]

@@CarlosRomero-u6h We can only speculate but it seems to me the republic would claim to be the 'continuator' state, with the sovereign territory, treaty obligations and memberships of international organisations etc that the UK had.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@arfurascii2232 Let's hope so, there's so much uncertainty in all fronts these days. If climate change continues apace Southern Spain including Gibraltar might become uninhabitable and the whole for ever issue in the treaty become irrelevant.

[@jabato9779]

@@arfurascii2232 And no territorial waters and no isthmus, but Britain always cherry-pick the arguments that benefit them, tailor-made for each dispute.

[@ojloub]

England has used the same strategy every where in the world, take the land, colonize it, and 200 years later when the majority is English make a referendum in the name of democracy. 😂😂😂

[@marklittle8805]

@@ojloub well yes, but to be fair, no one there now is "conquered" and most have ancestors from Britain. Just the same as the people in the Falklands. The Spanish nor the Argentinians ever lived there either. And when Britain did give Hong Kong back, look how it has worked out? The Chinese in Hong Kong used to having a say in the government and social freedoms are now dealing with Beijing. Think they don't want the Brits back? The Brits gave up almost every colony they ever had and likely would have here too if the Spanish didn't make it so plain they were hostile to the Brits being there at all. Never mind that it was British through a treaty. Never mind the UK never threatened Spain in modern years. Never mind the two nations outside of this never really had issue with each other in modern times. But the Spanish have never understood the best way to get the UK to walk away from a Colony is to let them find out it is not worth the cost on their own. Forcing the issue or making threats just turned the people in the colony off.

[@TheOtorrinonaringolo]

@@marklittle8805 creo que estas equivocado, aunque si es verdad que en los tiempos modernos hemos sido y somos aliados España no puede dejar de presionar por recuperar una conquista con engaño, evidentemente una guerra es impensable hoy día, pero diplomaticamente estos obligados, los gibraltareños evidentemente quieren conservar su estatus de paraíso fiscal ,hay más empresas que habitantes y cruzar la frontera para comprar barato en España es muy cómodo, sin contar que hasta ahora se beneficiaban de nuestra seguridad social. Con respecto al tratado de utrech se le cedió el peñón y el puerto pero no las aguas territoriales de Algeciras, y para colmo si miras un mapa antiguo verás que el territorio cedido era más pequeño, cuando Gibraltar sufrió una crisis sanitaria España les cedió terreno para poder atenderlos ,en vez de irse cuando controlaron la enfermedad se establecieron allí, hoy día se sigue ganando terreno al mar que no les pertenece y atacando los pesqueros de Algeciras que son los dueños legítimos de las aguas,los enfrentamientos entre vuestra policía y la guardia civil protegiendo los pesqueros y persiguiendo narcos que se refugian en Gibraltar son constantes, solo espero sinceramente que no pase a mayores,ya nos hemos peleado bastante en la historia 😅. Un saludo.

[@m.a.3704]

@@marklittle8805 Reino Unido es como una mierda, pero sin el "como".

[@markaxworthy2508]

@@m.a.3704 Gracias por su sofisticado análisis.

[@m.a.3704]

@@markaxworthy2508 gracias! A mandar.

[@philsidock]

It's a fascinating territory, and I'm sure we'll hear more about it because of Gibraltar's obvious stratregic value. Hopefully, local residents will be able to live in circumstances that makes sense to them as well as the U.K. and Spain. Thanks again for the great video!

[@MikeWal2]

The act of union between England and Scotland was in 1707. Therefore it was not a British fleet in 1700 when the war of the Austrian Succession started and also it was not a British fleet in 1704 (when "British fleet" was first mentioned here). In both cases it was an English fleet. Admittedly, by the time that war ended in 1711, it WAS a British fleet (if only in name only), but still...

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Yes, I know. But when trying to make a short 10-15 minute video sometimes explaining things like this takes up time and potentially confuses viewers. As I always say, every small diversion to explain a side issue often requires a long path to get back to the main story!

[@MikeWal2]

@JamesKerLindsay Understood, but this kind of thing is likely to automatically annoy all the Scots among your viewers. I'm not even a Scot but I did spend my first three school years at a Junior School in South Glasgow and thus apart from knowing how to pronounce Kirkcaldy and to couple it with Linolium, I also know that James I was in fact James VI and various other perhaps trivial facts that have stayed in my memory ever since - including the need for care when using British rather than English.

[@MikeWal2]

[In a somewhat later life I also learnt how to pronounce Cholmondeley. My father got around...]

[@flashtrash7830]

Er... the Act of Union involved adoption of all agreements except those sorted in Council.

[@MikeWal2]

@flashtrash7830 It didn't apply retroactively in making a 1700 (or 1704) English fleet a British fleet.

[@rallemeister9043]

Its convenient for the british to say that we should let the people that live in Gibraltar vote and let them decide. When you drove out the original population when you took Gibraltar in 1704. That is the reason it is considered a colony by the UN. Because the people that lived there, where displaced. And after that displacement you repopulated Gibraltar with a lot of British, not only but a lot. You like to bring up Ceuta and Melilla a lot in this conversations but there is no point to that. As those Spanish cities have been spanish BEFORE there was any form of Morocco, at all. There is nothing that makes it a colony. As the UN says itself, Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies, but Gibraltar is a colony. James makes great material. But in this video he left some things out. We have to be honest in that the UK has been taking advantage of Spain about the territory around Gibraltar. In the 1850s during an epidemic the Spanish gave the UK permission to built barracks in Spain outside of the agreed territory of British Gobraltar to combat the epidemic. And after the epidemic that Spain helped the UK to combat, the UK stayed and created a new border basically stealing land. And then again for example in 1908 the UK took yet more territory. Amd the uk again extends artificial land to build a god damn airport on stolen territory that is outside of the agreed area according to the treaty. Where does it say in the tready that the UK can take territory as they please? After all of this, the UK has the b@lls to do maintanance and crewchanges on their nuclear submarines in Gibraltar. How convenient. If something horrible where ro happen, it would just happen in southern Spain so who cares, right? We Spanish people are actually really fed up with this. There is more, but this comment is already to long. Those are the problems problem.

[@flashtrash7830]

"Where does it say in the treaty that the UK can take territory as they please?" Practice is not limited to what the treaty allows. Spain accepts international law. See my post on this thread on the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea which Spain signed up to in 1997

[@rallemeister9043]

@@flashtrash7830 i did not mention the sea, I have only talked about the landgrab...which is not on par with international law. Dont even try dude.

[@flashtrash7830]

@@rallemeister9043 Hahaha! - it's a discussion thread not a gun-fight.

[@rallemeister9043]

@@flashtrash7830 Hahaha yeah that is true, but I just hope that people from the UK understand that it has not been totally fair even tho we have a contract after the war of 1714

[@pactubular]

Very interesting analysis. Balanced, serene and dispassionate. Is a delicate topic. The question I ask myself is: How would the British feel if The Isle of Portand was a territory occupied by another country? Perhaps the Spanish are better understood.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank yo so much. It does have the sort of quality of a famous British comedy ‘Passport to Pimlico’. Seriously, though, I think there might be a lot more sympathy for Spain’s position if it wasn’t holding on to two enclaves in North Afifa, Ceuta and Melilla. It does come across as rather hypocritical to complain about a British enclave when it has its own in Morocco.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@pactubular Indeed !

[@quiteamazingtoo]

As usual, nothing was said for the benefit of the UK.

[@FredoRockwell]

Great video! I'm in Spain right now so I watched it with particular interest! I can't remember if you've made a video about Ceuta, but I've never quite understood what appears to be a very inconsistent position by Spain. Thanks again!

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thanks Fredo. I hope you are having a good time over there. I have some a video on Melilla and Ceuta. It was rather a long time ago and so I might need to revisit it. In the meantime, I really had to resist the temptation to point out the rather obvious double standards. (Although no doubt we can expect Spanish nationalists to explain why the two cases can’t possible be compared!)

[@gawkthimm6030]

logic from the far-right? what did you expect

[@IrishPartizan]

@@JamesKerLindsay Spain's argument about both Ceuta and Melilla is that they were seized before Morocco came into being so therefore it has right to control the territory. Morocco btw is also on shakey legal ground having annexed the Spanish (now Western Sahara) in 1976 without consulting the local Sahrawi people who had initially taken up arms, in the form of the POLISARIO against the Spanish in the dying days of the Franco regime in 1973. Now there's another idea for a video.

[@glo8778]

@@gawkthimm6030 no far right bin Europe. Or you call Le Pen Far Right?

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

Have you visited Gibraltar yet? 🗣️

[@WhirRocks]

Great presentation

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much!

[@javiTests]

I don't think you have addressed the main issue. There was a neutral zone, that was empty until the UK asked to put some temporary hospital tents and Spain agreed to that. But after the yellow fever issue ended, they left everything there and after that the UK unilaterally build the airport and other buildings. But the isthmus should be empty...

[@jonathanrapley147]

How can you talk about agreements when Spain turned around and sieged Gibraltar 13 times lol They constantly go on about the waters and the airport but fail to realize they have broken their own agreement.

[@javiTests]

@@jonathanrapley147 Which agreement does it say that you can't siege another territory? If I understand the siege as closing the border and not allowing anything to go through... A country is not obliged to open the borders for goods, right? If you capture a territory that is surrounded by another one, that's one of the drawbacks.

[@scorpioninpink]

The Falklands and Gibraltar have similarity. They are both disputed by a bigger Spanish Speaking country and its inhabitants both want to remain British. Sovereignty is not only about Independence. It is also about the wishes of the locals about their status.

[@MaxSafeheaD]

Funny how Britain staunchly abides by that when it suits, but when the result is in doubt it's a different story. Such as in Scotland, after the Brexit farce, and billions of barrels of oil that "mist have fallen down the back of the sofa," then Scotland is forbidden from having a say on their own status.

[@thesherbet]

In both cases, the territories are largely used as pawns in the Spanish and Argentine political landscapes to distract from ongoing internal issues as well.

[@philipcurnow7990]

In fact, this is indeed a case of size doesn't matter.

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

@@thepablykono

[@ryandanngetich2524]

@@thesherbet Yesss

[@mikesuar8842]

¿Qué tiene de estratégico Gjbraltar? Está totalmente rodeado por España y, ante cualquier disputa, España se apropiaría de él en media hora.

[@joebullwinkle5099]

From an Americans perspective, it was very instructive to watch your presentation to not only see the history of Gibraltar, but the ongoing issues of British sovereignty over a slice of territory that is physically connected to Spain. I was particularly fascinated to hear that the local population is so strongly opposed to Spain taking over sovereignty, when it appears that many of the locals travel to Spain every day or at least very regularly.

[@RayThackeray]

@freebeerfordworkers The British Government fucked everything up with Brexit, were you not listening?

[@unaihernandez330]

He forgot when UK asked Spain to used temporarily neutral and spanish territory to figth an epidemic and when that finish they still occupying that land

[@marcusbrown188]

@@joebullwinkle5099 from Mercian perspective we Americans do have our own version of Gibraltar called Guantanamo Bay but has a lack of tourism

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

@@RayThackeray That's the problem with the concept of democracy. People like you only support it when you like the decisions.

[@a34rwl]

You do know about Ceuta and Melia?

[@davidhowells-rl9li]

Well shouldn't it be left up to people of Gibraltar? To vote on ! Weather they want to belong to Spain or Britain or even become an independent state? The people should have the last say on the destiny of their island?.

[@fil_britbunnyboi872]

@davidhowells-rl9li they did. A referendum was held in 1968 and they voted to stay British

[@marcosvidal4940]

@@fil_britbunnyboi872 only 99%? wow, interesting

[@Khayyam-vg9fw]

The first time I visited Gibraltar, in 2004, I was staggered at the strength of feeling among the Gibraltarians I spoke to, who very firmly wanted to retain their ties to Britain. I've not been back since 2009, but I'd be surprised if this attitude has changed very much (although I'd be interested to hear from locals or more recent visitors); indeed, it is possibly even stronger now.

[@fil_britbunnyboi872]

@@Khayyam-vg9fw I visited in 2021. General sentiment was overall towards the UK

[@Khayyam-vg9fw]

@@fil_britbunnyboi872 Thank you for that information. It is what I would have expected.

[@antoniogomespereira6667]

Very, very good, indeed. Would you be willing to take a look at the issue of Olivença. It's similar, in some ways. Thank you!

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much. This is coming up a lot. I really should take a look at it.

[@antoniogomespereira6667]

@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you, sir. Although I do not intervene a lot, I do love your videos. Thank you for them and for your response.

[@expatexpat6531]

Where does Gibraltar get its water and electricity from?

[@mycellphone4437]

Desalination and a thermal plant I think.

[@benjamindejonge3624]

Who cares? Probably only the English who holds Ulster

[@asparadog]

Two desalination plants and LNG generators. Gibraltar had been embargoed by Spain for quite a while, which allowed the nation to develop self-sufficiency in these areas.

[@batcollins3714]

THe EU, Britain couldn't afford it.

[@missk1942]

What are you trying to articulate?​@@benjamindejonge3624

[@oliversherman2414]

I'm from the UK but I live in southern Spain. I've visited Gibraltar easily over a hundred times since moving to Spain two years ago as I visit it every week. Everyone I've spoken to in Gibraltar is proudly British Gibraltarian and none of them have announced any interest in joining Spain

[@lordgeminismagno7360]

como no, no son Españoles son extranjeros, los verdaderos Gibraltareños son los que viven en San Roque, fundado por los refugiados españoles que poblaban el peñón antes de la invasión rastrera y sin previa declaración de guerra, estos sí votan por España. Antes de comentar cosas informate o piense un poco el por qué solo miran hacia Londres.

[@oliversherman2414]

​@@lordgeminismagno7360In every referendum on Gibraltarian sovereignty the result has always been 99% in favour of Britain

[@lordgeminismagno7360]

@@oliversherman2414 repito, NO SON ESPAÑOLES, los verdaderos pobladores fueron expulsados y se creó una base militar, luego permitieron que se llenara de gente de muchos lugares e ingleses pero no son oriundos de la zona, España posee la soberanía, solo cedió el castillo, la plaza y la Roca hasta que decidiera prescindir del territorio, no lo puede vender, no se puede independizar, no puede ser estado libre asociado, etc, es un territorio con características restringidas dictadas por el tratado de Utrech, si deciden ignorarlo estarían contradiciendo dicho tratado anulandoce este y teniendo que devolver el territorio, lo curioso es que ningún gobierno inglés pensaría devolverlo pase lo que pase, como si lo venden y el problema ya no sería de ellos a pesar de estar escrito que no pueden venderlo, Reino unido nunca a sido un país de fiar ya que solo miraba por sus intereses sin mirar a sus aliados

[@oliversherman2414]

​@@lordgeminismagno7360 You've never been to Gibraltar, have you? It's not like everyone there is English. In fact, Spanish is just as widely spoken across the territory. Many Gibraltarians actually speak Spanish more than English. But, despite this, they still have no interest in joining Spain. They've democratically elected to stay with the UK more than once, which is more than can be said about Cueta and Melilla which Spain refuses to so much as consider a referendum for

[@JoseDaniel-iw7rq]

@@oliversherman2414 And? They speak Spanish because they need to, as a large part of the essential supplies and services, such as food and consumer goods, come from Spain. Many Gibraltarians don't even work there; they work in Spain. Honestly, Spain should close the borders and not let anyone through. In that case, we'd see how much longer Gibraltarians would want to remain part of the UK (which isn't really their decision anyway). If the politicians in London decide they don't want Gibraltar anymore, they'll just abandon them, regardless of what the people there want. After all, no referendum was held for the people of Hong Kong to decide if they wanted to return to China. The decision to transfer Hong Kong's sovereignty to China was based on international agreements between the UK and China. Or to put it another way, the UK simply couldn't maintain Hong Kong anymore, so they decided to leave with dignity and abandoned them to their fate.

[@pedroolivarestomas4928]

Profesor usted cree sinceramente que en vez de ser con España el problema, fuese con Francia, USA o China...la postura de RU seria la misma? yo como español creo el conflicto habria terminado hace tiempo. Saludos, me encantaria respuesta.

[@piotrmoklinowski9103]

Es decir. En 1704 GB-NL toman Gibraltar SIN PREGUNTARLE NADA A SU POBLACIÓN en nombre del PRETENDIENTE HABSBURGO AL TRONO DE ESPAÑA. Pero a partir de 1960 GB sí "tiene que" preguntar. Curioso, muy curioso. También intentaron conquistar Málaga en agosto de 1704 y se quedaron con las ganas.

[@gregosyesyez828]

Would this not be the same with cueta and mellila? They now reside in modern day morocco and were surely inhabited by native north africans before spain claimed them.

[@aleixpucherodriguez8313]

@@gregosyesyez828 Amigo, Ceuta y Melilla son españolas desde antes de que Marruecos existiera. No tiene sentido la comparación.

[@gregosyesyez828]

@aleixpucherodriguez8313 yes, hence why i say they reside within modern day morocco, the land mass with indigenous people existed before it was known as morocco and before spain claimed the territories as their own.

[@aleixpucherodriguez8313]

@@gregosyesyez828 entonces me estas dando la razón.

[@markaxworthy2508]

@@aleixpucherodriguez8313 The status of Gibraltar was agreed in 1715. The UK would happily give up Gibraltar today. However, these days the opinion of the population matters. Gibraltarians are largely Spanish-speaking and most surnames there are Spanish. All Spain has to do is to persuade Gibraltarians of the benefits of unification with Spain. Problem solved!

[@EdMcF1]

When I heard the first live results, which came from Gibraltar, in the 2016 Referendum, I thought 'Wow, that's a done deal then!'.

[@nymuelovan]

Thats funny. Gibraltar is colonized by britainers 😮😅

[@krisinsaigon]

@@nymuelovanno, they are mostly from Genoa in Italy

[@nymuelovan]

@@krisinsaigon I mean its true you let some mafiosos in because of the lack of proper regulation, but there are no spanish there, so obviously nobody there wants to make Gibraltar spanish.

[@iankingsleys2818]

Then the Sunderland result came in.

[@jaixzz]

Dear Prof. Many thanks -- great delivery

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much! Really appreciated! :-)

[@user-cm9pt8bo3l]

I detect the usual "errors" in the story, easy to detect when Franco appears in the story. It is the UN that urges the UK to decolonize the territory and it is the UK that responds with a supposed right of the population that inhabits Gibraltar after WWII (years in which it was emptied of people, remember), and it is then that the British refusal to fulfill the international mandate, Franco, in compliance with the Treaty of Utrecht, proceeds to close the gate. And the gate only opens as a result of Spain's accession to the European Community in the 80s. That of meeting the wishes of the current inhabitants of Gibraltar (the originals, with their archives, flag, religious images, etc., were expelled and founded San Roque, remember) was just an excuse. And it is an excuse because the treaty refers to the territory, and the Spanish claim is about the territory. You can believe me when I tell you that NO ONE in Spain wants the current inhabitants of Gibraltar to have a Spanish passport. It is just a smoke screen conveniently deployed to try to justify what can no longer be justified. The negative effects of The Rock on the surrounding towns are very visible if you read the data. As you move away from The Rock the economy is better, anyone who doubts this can consult all the statistics they want. Therefore, it is feasible that tomorrow, a tough government in Spain will consider closing the gate again, complying with the Treaty of Utrecht (the only basis that legally sustains the British presence) or imposing heavy entry and exit tolls, unbearable for the weak local economy, artificially grown in recent years. Everything else, fantasies of those who long for an Empire that is long gone.

[@persona7-7-7]

It's not a colony and it has nothing to do with fantasies of empire, you are a child.

[@user-cm9pt8bo3l]

@@persona7-7-7 If it stings, as I see, it means it disinfects.

[@msbayramoglu1]

Excellent work as always very informative and historically helpful thank you Professor James Ker-Lindsay

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you!

[@mussajavdan8203]

Well Dr. Lindsay deleted my comments like always while we have another opinion than him . I write my opinion very politely again Dr. Its is very clear that the wish of the Gibraltar citizens have to bee respected . But it also have to come with consequences. You can not vote to stay in British colony but simultaneously have the benefit as an EU member state ,and the profits of the Spanish territory surrounding you. I believe Spain have been very soften regarding the issue . I would force a very stronger policy so you just wish to be apart of Spain

[@bxdanny]

I hadn't realized, until seeing the map in this video, that Gibraltar is not, in fact, the very southernmost point of the Iberian Peninsula, but is in fact slightly east of it. A point in Spain a bit west of Gibraltar extends slightly further south.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Indeed!

[@pradeepmagan6951]

what happen to democracy - the people decided to stay with the UK - end of storey - if Spain wins, then they need to give up land in Afica

[@mussajavdan8203]

Well Dr. Lindsay deleted my comments like always while we have another opinion than him . I write my opinion very politely again Dr. Its is very clear that the wish of the Gibraltar citizens have to bee respected . But it also have to come with consequences. You can not vote to stay in British colony but simultaneously have the benefit as an EU member state ,and the profits of the Spanish territory surrounding you. I believe Spain have been very soften regarding the issue . I would force a very stronger policy so you just wish to be apart of Spain

[@tempejkl]

It is a settler colonial state

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@pradeepmagan6951 I don't see the logic in your argument, the two are different things however much you want to bung them together to make a point.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@pradeepmagan6951 To whom ? Morocco ? A Full on dictatorship with an absolutist Monarchy. You're a very generous person !

[@jabato9779]

@@mussajavdan8203 I 100% agree

[@stunimbus1543]

Minorca is also British by virtue of the Utrecht treaty.

[@mycellphone4437]

And Benidorm.

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

No it’s not

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

Supereded by the war of Jenkins ear !

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@stunimbus1543 Correction was. The treaty of Amiens changed all that.

[@jabato9779]

It was given back as Gibraltar should too.

[@ronaldderooij1774]

It seems to me that the main problem lies in the Isthmus and the waters. As for the waters, the Netherlands and Germany had a long standing border issue concerning the mouth of the Ems river. It was concluded fairly recently (I think around 2000??) with the waters now being administered by both countries.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@ronaldderooij1774 Very sensible. But here you have one party with too much pride and too little empathy. I will take bets on which one 😂

[@Tusiriakest]

How about Olivença, with Portugal.Spain is obliged by treaty to return the occupied territory, and is yet to comply.

[@Fast58Eddie]

Come on, what difference does Olivenza make? Both countries are part of the EU. Besides, ethnically the Portuguese and Spanish are essentially the same people. I crossed the Spanish Portuguese border a few years ago and it was a non-event. The people in Olivenza can speak whatever language they want and they use the Euro. They can also come and go between Spain and Portugal as they please. The case for Gibraltar is very different, the people there are as English as the Turks. It is a place where illegal activities abound. They should not have been allowed to settle there to begin with. The British should have limited their presence to military personnel only. They created a "self determination" issue to have an excuse to remain there.

[@Tusiriakest]

@@Fast58Eddie It might be the same thing to you. I don't get why Catalans want independence cause they all seem spanish to me, the same with the scotish and the english... all the same to me...Denmark, Sweden and Norway? Being three different countries almost blows my mind... But Spaniards and Portuguese? Spaniards come from the Iberians, while the Portuguese come from Lusitanian Celts; the Visigoths colonized Spain, Portugal was colonized by the Suebi, Spaniards had 300 y+ of arab rule than Portugal...etc etc etc... So... nothing against my Spaniard friends on a personal sense, they are great neighbours (most of the time), awesome party goers, and have a very beautiful country, but if you can't spot the differences, we can... And we have had the same borders since 1297... without any problem... so why ruin that? Spain is bound by treaty to return the territory... it should do so.. as simple as that...

[@kevinnolan1339]

When you have to resort to whataboutery, you've generally lost the argument.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

@kevinnolan1339 I generally agree. But this isn’t exactly whataboutery. I’d usually consider whataboutery to focus on a rather different case as a way of deflecting the debate on a specific issue. For example, responding to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by asking what about the US and Iraq. In this case, there is a direct link between Spain’s claim to Gibraltar and the fact that it doesn’t respect the fact that it is in a similar situation with other territories. Also, while Spain refutes Britain’s arguments over Gibraltar, it employs the same arguments regarding Ceuta and Melilla.

[@adrianpulido4933]

@@Tusiriakest Maybe I am mistaken but the treaty that compels Spain to give back Olivenza also said that the portuguese had to give back some territories in the south of Brazil to the Banda Oriental, now better known as Uruguay. The Brazilians got their independence before that happened, so the treaty is no longer valid

[@lNewAge]

Most important detail you forgot to mention: almost all the original inhabitants of Gibraltar left due to the racial cleansing carried by the British. The current inhabitants are descent of the new inhabitants brought by the UK.

[@thostaylor]

Not really. Most of the original Spanish did leave, but were replaced by Catalans and Minorcans (24%), Genoese and Italians (20%), Portuguese (10%), Maltese, Sephardic Jews and Royalist French. Ethnic British represent only 27% of the population, which is why most Gibraltarians converse in Llanito.

[@rice4550]

@@thostaylor so op is right the original inhabitants were ethnically cleaned and Britain brought in new inhabitants

[@thostaylor]

@@rice4550 It depends on how you define ethnic cleansing. By that definition the Spanish ethnically cleansed Gibraltar when they took it from the Moors. You would also have to regard Catalans and Minorcans as not ethnically Spanish.

[@flashtrash7830]

Sounds like the Spanish Empire in central and South America.

[@jabato9779]

The guy cherry-picks the arguments (valid or nonsense), typical British.

[@anonnemo2504]

The chances of a deal now seem to be receding. As always, the devil is in the details. Hopefully, the UK and Gibraltar governments have robust contingency plans in place for such an eventuality. The UK government and civil service, however, as we saw during the Brexit negotiations, do not have a good record on contingency planning. An excellent history lesson, by the way!

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much! And let’s hope that a deal can be reached. It’ll be an interesting test for the new U.K. Government, in several possible ways.

[@MidnightTheOne]

Gibraltarians want the best of both worlds. Though it's fair that they stay under British rule if they voted to for that.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@MidnightTheOne Yes have their cake and eat it. That was tried to exhaustion by Theresa May and her succesors but unfortunately the other party in the negotiations held stronger cards !

[@ShotsMerkzAll]

The Spanish rely on Gib far more. Thousands of workers go into the border each day. Gibraltarians just want to pop over for some cheap shopping

[@elnoideelsencarrecs8528]

They settlers pbiusly they want to be keep in english rule

[@gibo5863]

We actually have a great residential retreat on one of our beaches called Both Worlds...:)

[@Richard1A2B]

Another very informative video, thank you. It would be interesting to know the make-up of the Gibraltarian population. How many are ethnecially Gibraltarian and how many are British from Britain? Like Northern Ireland has a high planter decendency, which influences the Irish unification debate today. Although opinion polls in Gibraltar in the high 90's persentage-wise are pretty conclusive. It would still be interesting to know the population make-up nonetheless.

[@krisinsaigon]

They are from Genoa a lot of them, I think there are Maltese too

[@TomTomicMic]

If they are legal residents of Gibraltar it makes little difference, Spain would just take the vote from the third house away from a white house if it meant they could take it over, it's a hill of beans and has no legitimacy of how the Gibraltar population is currently made up!?!

[@AlastairWilliamson-m6c]

@@krisinsaigon I can't remember where I heard it but I was under the impression that most Gibraltans are not descended from "British" emigrants and that the majority are from various places in the Mediterranean. A legacy of the British imperial possessions and military actions over the centuries. The Maltese rings a bell. I wasn't aware of the Genoan connection but I wouldn't be surprised.

[@krisinsaigon]

@@AlastairWilliamson-m6c I actually went there about 25 years ago when I went to Morocco on holiday, and the people didn’t look ethnically British.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@krisinsaigon Of course not the British from Great Britain would've been the navy ratings and permanent army soldiers stationed there. The civilian population were from other parts of the Empire. For the British born civilians Gibraltar was not an attractive location, insalubrios and with few amenities. It wasn't until the end of the WWII that conditions improved and the population grew.

[@kristine6996]

Great information for a Belgian Lady. Thank you.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thank you so much. I am really glad you found it useful.

[@darrenmurray861]

There really is no conversation until the people of Gibraltar wish for a change to their sovereignty. The sad thing is, the way UK governments have treated Gibraltarians lately, they will be happy to switch that sovereignty sooner rather than later.

[@ryandanngetich2524]

Gibraltarians will never want to switch sovereignity lets be real

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@darrenmurray861 It makes no economic sense for the UK to retain Gibraltar. It is costly to maintain and you always have the problem of refugees like Hong-Kong though in this case more like climate refugees as Spain is not a dictatorship.

[@abcdefksohfosuh9024]

Nothing to dispute, the people there want to remain British, unless they have a change of heart Gibralters status should remain as it is.

[@jezalb2710]

Folks in Northern Ireland will soon have their say too

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@jezalb2710 yeah its a part of the good Friday peace agreement, there can be called referendums and the UK has signed unto agree to that referendum... no such deal exists in Gibraltar

[@0816M3RC]

​@@gawkthimm6030 Gibraltar's status is settled.

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@0816M3RC thats what i said...

[@ronaldderooij1774]

I see your point, but rarely in human history, is what the people want a decisive factor for states. States know interests (defined by the elites), nothing else.

[@BenelliMr]

but don't the gibraltar inhabitants want to belong to the EU at 96 percent?

[@telluwide5553]

One US super carrier would make Gibraltar militarily obsolete...lol.. Beside, if the UK ever wants to rejoin the EU, now with Spains veto power, giving up Gibraltar would be added to the list of excrement the UK would have to eat to even be considered...😅.. and yet, UK citizens elected Nigel Farage to parliament...Whenever I get depressed about US politics all I have to do is look at UK politics and all its blunders over the past 110 years and what their place in the world has become, and I feel pretty damn good...😅

[@ab-ym3bf]

Understandable , but don't become too complacent. After all, you will have to chose one of 2 geriatrics that can hardly distinguish elbow from @rs in november. In would not want to trade places with you. Or brits.

[@anonnemo2504]

The "super carrier" comment requires more explanation. The UK will never rejoin the EU, one reason being that, given its inexorably rising internal tensions, the EU's days are numbered. I give it another 10 years maximum. Did you ever consider that your feeling good during your reminiscences may not be based upon very firm foundations, by the way?

[@danielrobertson8774]

I would say stability was brought about by NATO. As for wider European involvement in Gibraltar, it's always been clear. No clear access for the Atlantic based navies, no or very limited NATO patrols of the Mediterranean.

[@JonatanRaven]

Last I checked, Spain was part of Nato so the impact of Gibraltar in this context is irrelevant.

[@CarlosGomez-ti2hn]

The closest resemblance to Gibraltar is not Ceuta or Melilla, administered from Hispania since Roman times. Closest resemblance would be Spain owning the Isle of Wight after some XVIIIth century war. Gibraltar is an anomaly that has persisted only by the weakness of Spanish rulers. This can also change. Drawing the future based on the past can be misleading.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

If you take a look at the map of Europe from when Gibraltar became British you would find that most of the current land borders in Europe have been drawn up by pieces of land passing from country to another by wars and treaties. It really isn’t as strange as many Spaniards think it is. Gibraltar is an anomaly because it is still contested.

[@kristijanmadhukar516]

All I'm hearing is that Italy should get the Iberian Peninsula, England, France, and the entire rest of the Mediterranean.

[@HighLordBlazeReborn]

I really think Spain missed a trick when they failed to point out that they have no obligation to accommodate the UK after it voted to leave the EU and create the border issue by choice. The government of Spain has no responsibility to make allowances for the fact that the British voter apparently cares less about Gibraltar than the other way round (as the repeated pro-UK votes in the territory appear to imply in some sense). Also, just for laughs, I'd like to see Saudi Arabia assert a claim to Gibraltar given their "historic ties" to the place via the Umayyads 😂 What a ridiculous situation for the UK to be entangled in all for the preservation of their dead naval power status, all while decrying others for the same kind of self-centered foreign policy. Veneer of "the wishes of the people of Gibraltar" notwithstanding.

[@Invictus357]

Gibraltar was a British territory before Britain went into the EU, so it is understandable that when Britain finally gets itself out of the EU, Gibraltar will leave also.

[@eljanrimsa5843]

The Saudis have built a big mosque at the Southernmost point of Gibraltar to remind everybody of that.

[@michael5265]

As long as Spain doesn't try to poke there finger in Gibraltars politics and life. In 2002 i voted for keeping Gibraltar British as did 9899% of the population as my family did the same in 67s. My family has been there since 1786 we may have British names but we are a ethnic diverse family with Maltese, Jewish, Arab, Spanish, British & Irish ancestors.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thanks. That’s amazing to think you have such a long ancestry in Gibraltar. It really does underscore that it has a truly distinct identity.

[@meobligatwitter]

lo que siempre han hecho los británicos mover población según su interes, como va la Guayana Esequiba, callados como ...

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@michael5265 Yes a little outpost of Empire serving the narrow interests of a few privileged individuals belonging to the ruling class, the military and the City

[@elnoideelsencarrecs8528]

​@@michael5265 Gibraltar is a colony full of settlers, so who voted in that referendum were the settlers, the native people that live it in the rock before 1713 were obligate it to live from his land.

[@Correcaminos162]

Mientras los gibraltareños no tengan acceso a los servicios españoles y hacienda los investigue, se pueden quedar en la roca de moria para siempre. Con la verja cerrada por supuesto, puesto que no es un territorio válido para tener derecho a tener ningún paso fronterizo.

[@Harlock2day]

it is right that the people of Gibraltar choose how they live.

[@boxerfencer]

What negotiations are needed? Gibraltar is Spanish, historically and by agreement should have been transfered back to Spain years ago! Are the English native to Gibraltar?

[@geoffpoole483]

Ceuta and Melilla. I suggest you ask Gibraltarians. You may want to ask the Basques and Catalans if they want to remain in Spain.

[@McLarry88]

@@geoffpoole483 Ceuta and Melilla is Spain for the same time as Granada or Malaga, even before the Muslim conquest there was a Visigoth count called Count Julian. They belonged to Spain before Morocco and the Moroccan monarchy existed. Gibraltar is literally a Territory stolen by England in a war they did not win. A territory where they expelled the Spanish population to colonize it.

[@boxerfencer]

@@geoffpoole483 as for the elites, why would you want to ask people benefitting from the colonialist rule if they want back to Spain? They stand to lose if the area transfers back to Spain, and not only them but as I understand it, there's lots of large scale criminal activity, not the least of which is drug smuggling that goes through Gibraltar, that has vented interest in maintaining the status quo. As for the common folk, why would they want to change things too? As it stands now, there's no reason to reintegrate into Spain, as they're allowed to cross the border as they like to work as migrant workers withOUT being citizens of the country they extract wealth from. Im not even sure they pay taxes back into Spain, the economy they leach from. Clearly, there's no incentive to correct things when your whole establishment is corrupt from top down. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be corrected.

[@jabato9779]

@@geoffpoole483 Puff, off the mark dude.

[@edmundflett474]

Apart from the issue of the isthmus, Spain is very hard to sympathise with. One of the foremost colonial powers of all time signs a bit of land away in a treaty. They come to regret that. That piece of land develops its own separate culture, and overwhelmingly rejects annexation into Spain. Some international conflicts are shades of grey, but this one is just tedious nationalist irredentism. No amount of decolonial verbiage can hide the hypocrisy.

[@longiusaescius2537]

Culture genocide is development?

[@artman12]

Agreed. I hate to have to side with Britain on this one but they have all the rights to Gibraltar as long as Spain holds Ceuta and Melilla. Can’t have hypocrisy when you’re trying to portray yourself as the victim.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Thanks. I would agree. I find these types of dispute very interesting for all sorts of reasons. It’s one thing when we talk about colonialism. It’s another when two European states continue to fight over artificial lines on maps drawn U.K. after otherwise long forgotten wars. If every European state opened up questions about lost territory we’d be in a real mess. I don’t have any particular attachment to Gibraltar (or Northern Ireland for that matter), but I can accept the argument that it is up to the people in question to decide. On top of that, I also recognise the inherent hypocrisy of this situation as Spain complains about Gibraltar but somehow insists that Melilla and Ceuta are completely different. Still, they’ll probably get the upper hand in the football. So, there always that. :-)

[@dairebulson7122]

Well, the way I see it, Gibraltar is rightfully Spanish, Ceuta and Melilla are rightfully Moroccan, and Western Sahara (SADR) is rightfully a sovereign nation (of which Morocco illegally occupies much of) Of course, Gibraltar should have extensive autonomy within Spain, Ceuta and Melilla should have extensive autonomy in Morocco; furthermore Catalonia and Basque should have the right to vote for independence from Spain if a majority of their people wish it

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

​@@dairebulson7122No land belongs to a state by right. Countries font have rights, people do.

[@apolo_judo_club]

Thanks proffessor

[@skylongskylong1982]

Woke up one day in 1969, and found the Spanish authorities had cut the telephone cables , sealed the border and were trying to starve us, so we would become part of Spain. So had a Gibraltar citizen vote with observer’s from United Nations , if we wanted to become part of Spain. The exact vote details I cannot remember, but were like 2,000 Gibraltar Citizens voted to stay under British Sovereignty. 17 Gibraltar Citizens voted to have Spanish Sovereignty. What people forget the majority of those living in Gibraltar went there to get away from Spain !

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@skylongskylong1982 Yes Franco wasn't a patient man and got fed up with the delays to follow UN recommendations.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@skylongskylong1982 I've heard that the flow is going the other way now.. From 2,000 in 1969 to 30,000 inhabitants is a mighty leap in population.

[@pedroparra1989]

@@skylongskylong1982 Pues que se vuelvan a Inglaterra

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@skylongskylong1982 That was then, now there're more British citizens wanting to live in a democratic tolerant Spain where the cost of living is substantially lower.

[@leehallam9365]

So if Spain held it from 1462, it has been British for about 80 years longer than it was Spanish.

[@gibraltarik]

And Moorish for longer than both combined

[@nunosilva187]

@@gibraltarik and lusitanian before that.

[@matt47110815]

And Roman, way longer. Britain needs to finally understand, that shit does not belong to them, just because they want it.

[@alexbiden9567]

@@matt47110815 you tell that to Spain who have cities in Morocco

[@bobhob35]

@@matt47110815 by that logic it shouldn’t belong to Spain either

[@markaxworthy2508]

Is there nothing about respecting the will of Gibraltarians in the current proposed agreement?

[@tng2057]

As long as Spain having its enclaves at northern Africa, Spain has no case in claiming Gibraltar. Simple.

[@crose7412]

Spain's argument about both Ceuta and Melilla is that they were seized before Morocco came into being so therefore it has right to control the territory.

[@FlamingBasketballClub]

💯

[@heycidskyja4668]

@@crose7412 Yes, Spain's claim on that land is incredibly flimsy.

[@g1u2y345]

Ceuta and Melilla are both rightful Roman clay, let’s be honest

[@S3Cs4uN8]

@@g1u2y345 So wait, do we give it to the pope now, or Turkey?

[@juanjosegonzalezdenevado1922]

No habrá ningún perdón a Gibraltar y a sus colonos llevados por los británicos No habrá caprichos y consentimientos, Gran Bretaña salió de la Unión Europea Gibraltar está fuera

[@jr_8292]

A good reminder that in IR not all disputes are resolved, but just perpetually managed

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Indeed. :-)

[@TheFirstConcorde]

Spain ceded Gibraltar to Britain in 1713 and the Gibraltarians continue to make clear they don’t favour constitutional change. Spain hasn’t a leg to stand on in their “dispute”.

[@jeffbob1776]

Compromises and concessions made during the imperial era should still be respected? By that logic Nigeria didn’t have a leg to stand on nor did any former colony. We live in an era governed by the rule of law. Gibraltar belongs to Spain it is part of their landmass.

[@santiagoalcantara3806]

The era of empire have ended. Rule of law not rule of might . I war treaty lack any legal relevance if violates territorial integrity.

[@nickd4310]

The UK has agreed to decolonize Gibraltar and is therefore legally obligated to do so. Under the 1713 treaty, the colony would then return to Spain.

[@benjauron5873]

You're applying a libertarian argument. "Everybody should just belong to whatever country they want to belong to." That doesn't interest me. Indeed, if that argument were applied to everyone in the world, there would be total chaos. The only argument that should apply here is, what would be best for NATO and the Western Europe/World? We do, after all, have a war with Russia and its axis on the horizon, and security concerns take precedence over all others. Now, I'm no expert, and I'm more than willing to change my mind on this if better evidence presents itself, but my admittedly layman's analysis is that Spain can better defend Gibraltar than Britain, and British military resources in Gibraltar would be better utilized in the Eastern Med and/or Eastern Europe. Am I wrong? Can Spain not be trusted as an ally? Do the British have some unique skill or resource that makes them uniquely qualified to administer Gibraltar? So unless you can convince me otherwise, I think the territory should go back to Spain, and those British forces should be redeployed elsewhere. Let me give you an analogy. Let's say there's a small town somewhere in Manitoba or Saskatchewan that's sovereign to the United States. About 30,000 people live there, all patriotic Americans, but more importantly, there's a huge US Army and Air Force base there... to defend the town from Canada... Dude! Canada's not a threat! Let Canada protect that place and redeploy those troops somewhere they can be useful! Like Eastern Europe or the Pacific Rim! And if the 30,000 people don't want to live in Canada, that's fine. They can move to North Dakota. I think you see my point. Like I said, I'm a layman, but from my perspective, it makes no sense for Britain to defend that rock instead of Spain, and the British forces there would be better stationed in a more strategically important place.

[@johnmb69]

@@jeffbob1776 Nigeria didn't want to remain a part of the UK, while Gibraltar does. Are you saying that after 300 years the inhabitants of the region have no say over where they live? That's longer than my country and most of those in the Americas have existed. You forget that part of that rule of law covers the will of the people too. You don't try and solve one perceived injustice by creating another.

[@lemonlite_]

I always found this conflict interesting. It’s extremely similar in many aspects to the Panama Canal conflict of the late 20th century. Both were prominent naval positions taken largely unjustly via imperialism, hold a significant population from the conquering country (the Zonians are an extremely interesting topic unto themselves,) however while the UK seems to treat the Spanish government as largely equal, relative to the United States’ imperialist relationship with Panamá turned it into a nationalist issue far more tenuous than the Gibraltar debate. Without that flame, it strikes me as an issue that’ll continually be kicked down the road.

[@gawkthimm6030]

except the British had control over Gibraltar for many more years than the US did Panama, or Spain itself had control over Gibraltar Spanish Rule 1462-1704:- 242 years British Rule 1704 - 2024:- 320 years

[@CedarHunt]

Panama wasn't taken by the US as an imperial holding. Your comparison is completely false.

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@CedarHunt dont matter what you call it, what matters who has the power, authority and control, who got the panama canal profits...

[@CedarHunt]

@@gawkthimm6030 If it doesn't matter what we call it, then there is no reason to use those inaccurate terms.

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@CedarHunt well there sort of is, it wasn't until after Roosevelt that the US stopped taking colonial possessions from defeated enemies and was seen as a fellow "imperial great power", just a republican one, like France. Taking Puerto Rico and the Philippines from Spain. Islands of Samoa, Guam etc in the pacific. it wasn't until after ww2 the US committed to decolonizing.

[@imadnessBOS]

Hello, since you made an episode on Gibraltar, any chance you can make an episode on Ceuta and Melilla and the territories disputed between Spain and Morroco, and Moroccan claims on the two cities and nearby islands. Can Spain state claims on Gibraltar while refusing Moroccan claims to Ceuta and Melilla? I hope you can consider this request.

[@digitalfantazia3953]

In perpetuity means forever.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@digitalfantazia3953 Why then add another clause that if it ceases to be British then Spain has first refusal. If they really meant forever why put a get out clause ?

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@digitalfantazia3953 Or until death do us part 😂

[@ahones2255]

Gibraltar landfills have violated European and international regulations for 40 years In 2012, Spain prohibited these works in the sea by declaring the Eastern Strait a Special Conservation Area within the Natura 2000 Network of the European Union. The work also contravenes the Espoo Convention from the Treaty of Utrecht, which applies in Gibraltar because the United Kingdom included it that way.

[@arfurascii2232]

Spain isn't in a good position to lecture other nations about environmental damage. Illegal landfills you say? According to the European Commission in Februrary 2024, Spain has at least 195 illegal landfills - down from 1500 in 2020! The EC is taking Spain to the ECJ. Protected sites you say? Like Doñana and Mar Menor? By the way, be careful where you drink the tapwater - some places in Spain have too high risk of nitrate pollution in their drinking water.

[@burtlangoustine1]

Those who hold it, may keep it.

[@Tom-ct1rr]

Most of what you have said is very skew. In 1938 while Spain was in a civil war, they stole more Spanish territory and built an airport. In the 1960s, the UN voted by majority to decolonize Gibraltar. In the 60s, England left it as a tax haven but since the border was closed they dedicated themselves to tobacco smuggling. In the 80's when Spain opened the border it was still a tax haven, black money increased towards the new banks that were installed, and lots of online gaming companies since there were almost no taxes, so there was an economic boom in Gibraltar for the rich settled there. I suppose from the UK and associates. They are in paradise buying luxurious mansions in Sotogrande with luxurious golf clubs, because the border is open. They continue to launder money under the umbrella of the UK, how are they going to want anything to change? no way, like this forever. That is why the British government perfidiously claims to respect the will of the inhabitants of Gibraltar, even the newcomers which the treaty you have read does not even mention inhabitants at all. Did the UK government say that the will of the inhabitants of Hong Kong should be respected? Nope! China too big to mess around.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Sorry, but none of that makes what I said a fallacy. All you ah w down is added more detail to what I have said. So, thank you for that. (There is only so much one can cover in a 10-15 minute video.) But I should say that suggesting that I set out to device, as using the word fallacy suggests, is deeply unfair and I usually delete comments suggesting that I have lied. I make these videos in good faith. I don’t set out to deceive anytime. Please edit your comment accordingly.

[@anonnemo2504]

To what extent the treaty of Utrecht ceded land to Great Britain has always been disputed by the UK and Spanish governments. All your other claims of perfidy are highly disputable too. The principle that self determination is supreme is a sound one and widely accepted throughout the civilised world and your opinion of Gibraltar and its residents is neither here nor there.

[@anonnemo2504]

@@JamesKerLindsay It was an excellent, even handed piece and many thanks. There are always details (factual or not) that may be added but time is always limited and I thought you struck a very good balance.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

@@anonnemo2504 Thank you!

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@anonnemo2504 How does it apply to the Chagos Islands then ? also held by the UK. Isn't that double standards ?

[@FairyCRat]

Cases like Gibraltar and the Falklands are quite frustrating. The people have spoken loud and clear that they want to remain with the UK, but that doesn't stop the other country from bringing up their historical control of the areas, even though the modern locals don't even descend from the people who used to live there back then.

[@John316OBrian-cm4fj]

@FairyCRat have you heard of the terms "plantation "and "replacement " I'm irish so I'm an expert

[@xenopug6390]

​@@John316OBrian-cm4fjthat isn't really relevant. If the people of Gibraltar want it to remain as it is, who are you to deny them that right simply because 300 years ago their distant ancestors didn't live there?

[@krisinsaigon]

@@John316OBrian-cm4fjexpert because your people took Ireland from its inhabitants and colonized it and now won’t return it?

[@yipzoe3865]

​@@John316OBrian-cm4fjdo you know that there are 5 millon of Irish offsprings in the UK, they may technically vote the south Ireland back to UK

[@yipzoe3865]

​​@@krisinsaigon​​ do you know that there are 5 millon of Irish offsprings in the UK, they may technically vote the south Ireland back to UK

[@GuohuaQiu]

As someone from China, I've often wondered why the UK cannot return Gibraltar to Spain. In our case, Hong Kong was returned to Chinese sovereignty without a referendum. So, why does the UK insist that it's up to the Gibraltarians to decide whether they want to be under Spanish rule again? So who knows the answer to this, could you please share your thoughts on this?

[@SnorriTheLlama]

There are a few reasons. 1) A 99 year lease was signed in 1898 for Hong Kong, so after this expired in 1997 it was always going to be handed back to China. With Gibraltar, it was permanently ceded to Britain in a treaty. 2) Fundamental democratic principles core to British society. The idea of democracy and self-determinism is basically entrenched in British society, so anything being done must be with the consent and will of the people. So if the inhabitants identify as British and overwhelmingly want to remain part of Britain, then the UK government must acknowledge that, otherwise it would not be democratic. It would actually be so much easier politically if both the inhabitants of the Falklands and Gibraltar wanted to leave the UK, as would let the territories be ceded to Argentina and Spain respectively, resolving century long disputes and a recurring headache. But they don’t want to leave and the UK government respects their wishes despite the political headaches it causes.

[@Invictus357]

@@SnorriTheLlama That’s actually incorrect! The 99 year lease was for the new territories, not for Hong Kong Island, which was held in perpetuity, it was Margret Thatcher’s government that gave the island back to the CCP, and look what has happened to that now!

[@alcoholicjoe6199]

Ye and look what's happened in Hong Kong now.

[@joshuaswart8211]

The main reason is that the vast, vast majority of people in Gibraltar want to remain with the UK. (As shown by multiple referenda, where Gibraltar votes for the status quo by well over 90%.) There is no homegrown movement to join Spain. Both the UK and Gibraltar are satisfied with the status quo. Spain is he only party that has an issue with it. The equivalent in HK would have been if Hongkongers didn’t consider themselves Chinese, and near universally wanted to stay with the UK. And then voted to keep the system the same in multiple referenda.

[@silliestsususagest3276]

@@joshuaswart8211 Also the RealPolitk answer, China has a massive army and could have taken HongKing By force

[@tullypoo]

The British government didn't afford the citizens of Hong Kong, the same right to self-determination

[@physiocrat7143]

Different treaty and they were in no position to resist China, unfortunately.

[@ryandanngetich2524]

@@physiocrat7143 No it was mainly the t5reaty nothing else. Plus many HKs were happy to be free of British status

[@joshuaabell2033]

And then why the Hongkongers would wish to be under the biritish few years after they were returned under mainland china ??? The umbrella movements depicted reality Hong Kong would love to be under the British rule

[@jyrisulin]

A very British take on Gibraltar's history. Many references to "the people" and their "wishes", but not one word about the fact that the Brits first removed the original population to make the place governable way back when. The UK, in the 1980 extracted (you can call it blackmail, if you wish) multiple concessions of Spain to allow them to join the EU on matters of Gibraltar. Just like with Hong Kong, where the Brits introduced pseudo-democracy in the 1960's (used in today's politics as if the place was some fancy beacon of freedom and liberty under the colonial rule), and Northern Ireland, filled with unionist outsiders to "perpetuate (British) home rule", this "divide and conquer" tactic has been well established modus operandi of the British state for centuries. From the partition of India, to the splitting of the peoples of the Middle-East, Central Asia, Africa, and beyond -- the world keeps on paying the price for centuries of British misrule, exploitation, looting and spite. Gibraltar was the OG/modern blue print for how to fcuk up places, territories, countries, and peoples. Next time, when you talk about "unsolvable problems", try to frame the argument in its proper historical context, because this is not the way to do it. Or, more cynically said: this is the British way of talking about history -- not a pretty sight. As to the footie match coming up. May the best team win.

[@JamesKerLindsay]

Frankly, the whole of Europe is lines drawn on maps after wars and population displacement. And, as I’ve said in another comment, I might have little more sympathy for the Spanish position if it didn’t use almost exactly the same argument for why it has a right to hold on to Melilla and Ceuta. It’s about the right of people to decide their own future. So, maybe I do give a British position on the issue. But change the dispute and it could easily be a principled Spanish argument elsewhere. So, who exactly is in the right and wrong? Really, I’m happy to engage with debates, but it helps when they are framed more in terms of fundamental principles rather than a dig at a particular country’s policy. (I don’t say this as someone British, by the way. After all, I have made many videos on British colonialism. I say it as someone who doesn’t believe that prejudice is a terribly good way to make foreign policy as it opens one up to claims of hypocrisy.)

[@ab-ym3bf]

Very well said. Throughout this comment section you will notice the replies of the video maker confirm every word of your post.

[@jamiethannoo8559]

The entirety of Spain was built on land where the Spanish forced the Muslims and Jews living there to convert or leave. Why is that okay but not Gibraltar?

[@John316OBrian-cm4fj]

Exactly what I was thinking watching this ,I live in a part of Ireland that was the most planted by the British that is not ulster so I probably have a better understanding of the British history of divide and conquer and replacement of the natives who can't vote because they have been replaced by planters than the average British subject.

[@jyrisulin]

@@JamesKerLindsay I have no particular pro Spanish stance on this issue. It's complicated, as all colonial legacy issues are, even if we focus only on modern times, and present politics. Your narrative was very, um, UK centric, hence my fry reply.

[@franmorales1689]

El tratado de Utrecht lo habéis incumplido totalmente y deja claro el tema.

[@TheFirstConcorde]

10:44 comparing NI to Gibraltar and the SBAs is, to put it mildly, problematic and inaccurate.

[@vicnzvitis]

Don't care about the squatters put there by his gracious majesty. brexit means brexit

[@LivingLifeAfterDeath]

The people of Gibraltar have said we are not Spains to claim nor Britains to give away…Their desires must be met like it was in the referendums that took place..it’s not just about territory but people..The people of Gibraltar are a proud people and their wishes must be met..

[@user-cm9pt8bo3l]

They are not subjects of law in this matter. Nobody wants them to change their passport, the discussion is about the territory.

[@CarlosRomero-u6h]

@@LivingLifeAfterDeath Indeed ! But Historic wrongs must also be addressed.

[@LivingLifeAfterDeath]

@@user-cm9pt8bo3l You mean the territory that was awarded to Britain..Where the llanito people live..indefinitely..

[@LivingLifeAfterDeath]

@@CarlosRomero-u6h what historic wrongs would that be?..

[@martinharnevie]

100% for the people of Gibraltar to decide. This is the people principle rule, not only in the Commonwealth but also throughout the World. Not decided in Madrid and London.

[@thepablyko]

give it back and go home

[@ckunify]

@@martinharnevie That is simply biased. England had centuries to colonize Gibraltar and push English culture. Just an election would not be fair, but I agree they should be considered since they are the people who will be affected the most.

[@martinharnevie]

@@ckunify It's biased bamboozle the people of the land that they should be "biased". And it's entirely up to the people of the land whether or not they're happy with their history or if their history should be "undone". The same goes for Taiwan, Catalonia, Scotland, Ceuta, Mellila, St Lucia, Malta, Guernesey, Sarawak, Bermuda, Tibet, Sichuan, East Mongolia, Crimea etc etc. In the modern world, respecting basic human rights, the people of the land shall decide over the land, and be the jury of the governance of the land.

[@martinharnevie]

@@thepablyko The people of the land own the land. Same goes for Ceuta, Melilla and Catalonia and other lands around the world.

[@davidrubioroldan]

Gibraltar no tiene que votar es una colonia y como tal no puede

[@Timberjac]

There are a couple of issues. The first is that the territorial waters are only those of the port, the rest where the Royal Navy operates and patrols is an illegal annexation. The second, the airport, was expanded, thanks to the fact that Spain, acting as a good neighbor, ceded the necessary land, which was immediately occupied by the authorities of the rock. And all this would be nothing more than a minor problem, the problem arises from the fact that the waters that the rock illegitimately has are used for smuggling work, often protecting the British patrol boats from the smugglers of the Civil Guard, even shooting at the Spanish boats (there has not been more than one misfortune by simple coincidence). Worse still, Gibraltar also operates as if it were a tax haven. That is the reason why the Gibraltarians do not want to stop being British. If they are deprived of the ability to act as a tax haven and also to be a hub for smuggling (and other illegal operations, especially in relation to ships that use those waters as a point to bypass EU legislation, as well as Spanish legislation... and I'm almost sure even the British; the Gibraltarians would not have the GDP they have now, and that mostly comes from their illegal actions. Illegal actions, to which the British Government mostly looks the other way, simply because the damage is generated in another country and that means that they must spend less to subsidize the control of the rock.

[@flashtrash7830]

Read my post on this thread about the UN Law of the Sea. Tax haven: yes, indeed, in international discourse over Gibralta Britain has skilfully used a transitional population to assert continuance. But my goodness that is a long term risk! I'd rather they rooted continuance in developing international law.

[@RiggydePiggy]

Sounds like Gib wants to bake their cake and eat it too. Wanting to stay with England and still have special access to Spain? Definitely worth me doing research on it.