CAN I FRICTION WELD MOKUME GANE??

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[@kyfiss9176]

Brass and bronze have a lower melting point than copper which is why I believe they are falling apart before the copper. Also I believe copper conducts heat significantly better than brass and bronze therefore will take longer to heat up since you are essentially heating the whole piece. I would recommend trying to let them heat up with minimal pressure until they are both adequately heated and maybe even use a torch to heat the copper.

[@beetard5384]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[@jameswalsh6727]

Like your comment. have a read of mine in the main comments and let me know what you think.

[@jeolman1]

Thats my thoughts exactly.

[@RadDadisRad]

You might need to anneal the copper to get it soft. As an electrician I can attest to copper becoming work hardened. It’s not hard, compared to steel, but it does get harder and it’s frustrating to deal with.

[@kassiog.6595]

i tought that too

[@MrGoatflakes]

@@gstein123 it's because a crystal forms in red hot steel which is hard. It's not stable at a lower heat but still hot, so if you let it cool, it changes into something else far softer. But it is stable when cold, so if you don't give it time to change crystal forms, by quenching, it will remain hard. No such crystals form when you heat up most copper alloys, so the purpose of heating is just to removed the crystal defects from cold working. These work harden the copper by reducing it's ability to deform further.

[@raulbermudez893]

I thought that before this video was uploaded

[@evanrussell4746]

Maybe instead of two flat faces you could try an external taper into an internal taper. Playing around with different amounts of taper might also yield a pretty neat pattern.

[@justingrey6008]

Or, you got a brass rod and a Copper rod, how about a bronze pin in a small hole on each, just to keep them in

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

After friction welding the rapid deceleration of the lathe snaps the joint because the tail stock is stationary. Once you have the joint, release the tail and let them rotate in unison with a stream of compressed air.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

Good idea, but How... It's a Morse taper and a key chuck in the tail stock

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

@@Bobs-Wrigles5555 Not able to solve this one.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

@@jamesbarisitz4794 Ditto, but China has been doing this with truck differential housings for a while instead of arc welding kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZrCYWN_Z8x1o8U Looks expensive though.

[@Mike_129]

Possibly releasing the colllet instead of stopping the chuck? tTen the weld won't suffer the backlash of the chuck stopping and reversing under braking.

[@IcecalGamer]

@Deadog129 I also suggested something like that in Tims last video of this type. It got no traction ;_; Hope your comment gets viewed. GL Edit: Releasing the "quill" (still attached to the tailstock) such that it free-spins, relatively would put it at rest to the chuck (of the headstock). Best use scenario would be hitting the stop on the lathe at the same time as releasing the quill : one would slow down under breaks/ the other would spin up freely.

[@Reman1975]

I wonder if fitting something like a cheap second hand 3" lathe chuck would help slow the spindle faster? That 10 or 12" chuck he's got on the lathe will have some serious kinetic energy at the speed it's spinning. I'm not sure what chuck mounting system this one uses, but a with a lathe and a bit of work you can replicate most of them pretty easily.

[@BrntToaster]

No idea what Mokume Gane is but I'm here for it.

[@nullsnaggle5198]

Copper zinc Damascus

[@harrisonmcnab1176]

Mokume was used on samurai swords mainly for the guard mokume gane means wood grain metal in Japanese

[@mctuble]

Love the spontaneity of coming up with an idea and taking us along for the ride.

[@Invinciblemoam]

Possibly some sort of clutch on the tailstock assembly, so that it can be engaged to allow the workpiece to spin and then slow down with the Chuck. At the moment when the workpiece faces are molten you are relying on it staying molten until the Chuck has stopped spinning and then solidifying otherwise the weld just breaks

[@wolfparty4234]

Tim; dang it, the lathe isn’t working, Martiiiiiiin!!!! Martin; I’m on my lunch break!!!🤣🤣

[@Alif33333]

I wonder if preheating the copper would allow you to get a better weld due to its higher melting point?

[@stephent7819]

i was on my way here to say this!

[@ElecTecSoundwave]

Basically you stay below the melting point when friction (stir) welding metal alloys together. Only 50 to 80% of the melting temperature is reached, which is awesome and a major advantage of this method over arc welding. The metal remains solid the entire time. However, during welding it acquires a consistency that can be compared to cake dough.

[@rreeves0710]

Copper work hardens, its why we use them as shape charges to go through tank armor, or as additives to clutches, and other weird applications. I am not sure if heating it would help much, but I think this line of logic is in the right direction.

[@rreeves0710]

Paradoxically copper gets almost gummy and harder when heated up too quickly. The way to keep it soft would be to heat it up, then let it cool, then heat, then cool, repeatedly.

[@orangedream267]

@@rreeves0710 That.. is not how shaped charges work. Shaped charges are more akin to watching water hit sand. The copper acts more like a liquid than a solid in those cases. Copper will NEVER be harder than the composites we use in tank armor. Literally never. HOWEVER, on a molecular scale, you can push that stuff out of the way if you give that copper enough energy.

[@jameswalsh6727]

Tim, you could try pressing the pieces together with slightly less force and run the lathe for longer with the pieces pressed together. This will allow heat to build up in the two parts. Copper conducts heat very well. The heat will move down the part quickly and away from the weld area where you want it. Let the whole copper part get hot so the end can melt. You could try then using thicker pieces of bronze or brass so that the parts heat coefficients are better matched. The excess brass or bronze in the thicker pieces is used as a heat sink to stop the bronze melting before the copper melts. Once you see the parts start to melt and form a rounded radius on the weld area stop the pressure all together but keep the parts spinning for a few more seconds to make sure the two part have formed a nice mixed alloy then stop the lathe spinning as quickly as possible. If you don't see the radius start on the copper side go for an even thicker piece of brass or bronze. I'm pretty sure you can make it work.

[@jameswalsh6727]

Also Tim if you could allow the none tailstock chuck to spin when the weld is done. Release the chuck so that both parts can spin. This stops the weld from cracking because one part spinning and the other is not. Someone else also hinted at this in the comments. I agree with them it's a good idea.

[@WmSrite-pi8ck]

Tim, brother, mate...go get the James Lincoln Foundation's book "Metals and How to Weld them". It explains why this is happening to you. Counter-intuitively, copper is the "toughest" of all the metals (or at least the industrial metals). You could use copper and titanium and the Ti would give way before the copper did. Copper isn't "hard" but you will not find a better metal for toughness. We won't even start on heat conductivity.

[@MParker8200]

Congrats on hitting 100k! Keep up the great work.

[@kevinmartin7760]

Brass and bronze become crumbly before they reach complete fusion, which would seem to make friction welding pretty much possible unless it is encased in something like a steel jacket to keep the crumbs confined.

[@KeithOlson]

I love your attitude: "Let's see how many times we can fail *THIS* video! It will be cool!!!" "Awww! Look at that failure! That's so neat!" Such a great learning experience.

[@caseysmith5585]

I love how your always trying new things!!!

[@mousedog440]

Copper is one of the best thermal conducting material, it might be drawing away the heat from the weld face too fast for it to reach welding temperatures.

[@bgbthabun627]

Tim, I think that Mouse Dog is on the right track, based on past experience. I used to run an experimental setup back in the 90's where we were trying to friction weld stainless steel tubing to a solid cap. what we found was that heat transfer was the limiting factor. i suggest that you try to form a hollow in the copper piece, and put a projection on the bronze part that fits the hollow.

[@SchysCraftCo.]

That's really cool. Tim keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friend. Forge on. Keep making. God bless.

[@dR1Ugz]

have you tried using your milling machine? not sure what kind of RPMs it can get up to but, you can use a collet which would be more sturdy than a drill chuck and it should stop faster. you could use a collet block in the vice to hold the other end or just machine some soft jaws to hold the round bar.

[@johnnyrodeck]

I love these experiment videos. Very cool

[@Finom1]

Hello, I am a new subscriber, just coming over from Buckin's channel. Bless you for sharing your wisdom with the world!!!

[@TimothyDyck]

Awesome! Thanks for subscribing and welcome here.

[@grahamfoulkes7321]

Hi. Friction bonding two metals together as a joining technique has been around for a LONG time. Usually, the two pieces are 1, cylindrical, same or similar material and requiring a high integrity joint without a secondary interface material, ie, braze. One piece spins, the other stationary, the two brought into contact, pressure ramped up until plastic state forces out surface contaminants from the joint surfaces forming a collar. Precise shortening of the part signals the cut-off point, stationary part collet released and both parts spin down together. A variant is inertial bonding where the forging cycle is controlled by the energy stored in a flywheel driving the rotating part and allowed to transfer the kinetic energy into the joint until the rotation comes to a stop.

[@chrismsmalley2626]

Get 1/4" nickel and 1/4" ID copper pipe and like a 5/16th" ID brass tubing..shove them all together like an antenna and pound the hell out of it . Smoosh it all together and square it then just fold it or whatever. Itll come out good.

[@captianmorgan7627]

I like quarter stacking the best.

[@carbon_no6]

Fun fact: there are some Pulsars that spin upwards of 700 times per second. If they spun much faster it’s thought that they would be ripped apart due to the centrifugal forces generated. These objects are Neutron Stars that have roughly the mass of the Sun up to about 2.8 times the mass of the Sun and it’s all packed into a sphere roughly 20 kilometers or 12 miles in diameter.

[@retiredwelder1971]

Very cool. New subscriber. Came over from Buckin Billy Ray. So glad I found your channel. Being a welder my whole life I’ve always loved learning about blacksmith work. My name is Pete and I’m from the state of Maine USA, nice to meet you sir. Looking forward to getting to know you bud. As always WORK SAFE 😎😎🇨🇦🇺🇸

[@TimothyDyck]

Thanks for the sub! Welcome here, Glad to have you join the gang! :D

[@matfry2310]

Great video, thanks for sharing Tim 👍 maybe try pre heating with a cut off tourch?

[@bushratbeachbum]

Hahahahaha!!! I started playing the video at 75% speed, i thought you were super stoned or something!! I was thinking, shit, he doesn't sound like he should be around machinery!!

[@anthonypistocchi60]

Possibly use a live center type thing in the tail stock, and make a locking mechanism. So you can lock it so only the chucked piece is spinning, and once welding occurs you could release the locked tail stock to spin with a bearing. This way once welding happens, you can effectively stop turning instantaneously. Another method that’s somewhat similar would be to release the collet.

[@Skwisgar2322]

I think the problem is the disparate melting points. The brass/bronze are going plastic before the copper is hot enough to fuse. It works the traditional way because you can bring both materials up to proper temperature before attempting to fuse them, this way you are attempting to fuse before they are up to temp and once it hits the plastic temp for on it is going to deform.

[@PixelPi]

Your tailstock and chuck have too much slop, it caused the two pieces to wobble and not friction weld properly. Also probably a good idea to remove the oxide layer from the tip and/or add some flux. Oh, also since copper is such a great thermal conductor you may want to pre-heat the rod with maybe a blow torch.

[@brewster2188]

hey Tim, a really cool steel fire door would look good next to the forge

[@Joe___R]

Try preheating the copper before the friction welding.

[@andrepienaar6459]

I think what is happening is that because copper/bronze is a very good conductor of heat, the heat generated by the friction is dissipated away from the friction point, which means the metals disintegrate before reach welding heat. Mild steel for instance is much harder and reach welding heat before disintegrating.

[@deemstyle]

Hey man, I'll thumbs up for the attempt- good or bad; that was fun to watch! Honestly, I'd just like to see you make some mokume in general. Sure timascus and zurcuti is super cool, but let's not write off mokume- it's equally beautiful. Great attempt!

[@jerryjohnsonii4181]

Cool experiment !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@HistoricalGeology56]

YES I LOVE THIS STUFF

[@DuelPorpoise]

the brass did that because it becomes brittle at heat, to verify this, bring some to heat and give it a few swings, it should break like it did on the lathe.

[@keithyinger3326]

I do some casting with al-bronze and its always interested me how when, just before it melts, you can reach in with your stir stick and poke the leftover sprues or little muffin tin ingots, and they just crumble apart into crystalline pieces. It looks solid, but poke an ingot and it just breaks in half.

[@arankouhi3964]

Polish and clean both surfaces; if you cant get more speed from your lathe, you could try running the two surfaces for longer to build heat before applying more pressure.

[@bennybooboo6789]

Do any of those materials work harden? Might be making one or both brittle as friction increases.

[@01Blazin]

I want to suggest the same thing as @james barisitz. Is there a way to let the drill chuck side release to rotate with the lathe as it stops??

[@Flying0Dismount]

It's the slowing down and then going into reverse that shears the welds every time.. If you watch slow mo of an industrial friction weld, the spindle basically stops instantly, even in the high speed video shots, which gives a chance for the metals to bond. If your lathe has enough HP, perhaps a process like friction stir welding with a little carbide rod might be possible, but I don't think you'll ever be able to do structurally sound friction welds with a conventional lathe...

[@beautifulsmall]

Great attempt, never heard of Mokume Gane. Wondering if my friends Ward 2A would be good for friction welding as it has a clutch and brake, Also using a collet could save on the spinning momentum of the chuck. Should flux be used on friction welds ? Great work.

[@shadow_stalk]

Glad there where no stringies and you actually cut chips!! Alot of these other channels got some silly string shooting out off the part..

[@Pigeoning]

I don't know that I'd enjoy it at all but I'd really love for this channel to be the beta tester for smell-o-vision.

[@ultratorrent]

I'm thinking the copper wound up work-hardened in a really weird pattern from the hammer. Then some of the softer copper ablates when contacting the other material, but then a chunk of hardened copper starts ripping at the other materials before getting hot enough to melt itself. I think a generous preheat on the copper to anneal it would be a good idea to push this into actually working, you're pretty close on it!

[@mxcollin95]

Wonder if you’d get a better result friction welding by turning a slight taper on one material then machine a tapered pocket on the other material so the two sides would naturally want to stay centered on each other?

[@martylawson1638]

Looks like brass/bronze might work? Pick grades with high color contrast and similar melting points?

[@DFPercush]

Dang man, it looked like your tool mount was about to snap off flexing so hard. Stay safe.

[@patrickdean9797]

did you anneal the copper after forging it

[@terryritchings242]

I’m up for a lathe rebuild 😁👍 I think the ol girl needs one👌

[@MasterChief_S117]

Maybe use a torch to get them to heat quicker, and possibly find a way to get the tail stock to spin with the collet after you’re done not sure how you’d do it but but maybe the heat from the torch would keep things lose enough that they’d solidify in to a good joint after it cool

[@commonsense7754]

Could it be worth recessing a counter sink in the harder material and adding a cone shape to the end of the softer material to increase the surface area? Random idea.

[@thomasnielsen6392]

what if you turn down the rpm so it can stop super fast but and move the sledge closer to the spinning parts to keep it more stable and then aplay more preassure by using an extender to that small wheel you use to move the copper into the brass, and make sure your copperrob is coneshaped so the chuck better can hold on to it, and maybe preheat the metals :D i love to see all these kind of experiments sorry for my English

[@gavic85]

What if you open a hole in the copper and a point in the other metal bronce or brass

[@shawnpgorman]

Maybe try turning a shallow point on the bronze or brass, and mating it to a matching cone shaped divot in the copper?

[@Baj64]

Would there be any difference if you spun the copper instead of the bronze ? Instinctively, one would say no, but I wonder...

[@brandonneth9164]

Try rounding the button over onto the copper kind of like you would on a bowl maybe? I don’t know how well the brass or bronze would take that

[@Manifest-Best-in-Me]

What if you heated up the copper before and during the fusion since the copper has a higher melting point maybe it will help it stick better to the brass

[@toushal.s]

When they fuses/melt at one point the dead stock must be rotating freely then stop the lathe so that the braking does not break the weld.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

But how do you lock and unlock the tail stock centre?

[@toushal.s]

@@Bobs-Wrigles5555 by modifying and making something that can stop and rotate.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

@@toushal.s I've been thinking about this subject since Tim tried friction weld damascus a while back, the only idea I've come up with is a car air cond mag clutch, but I think it will be still too weak, remember anything you want to grip the end piece with has to be light enough to let the piece spin merely from the grip of the friction weld.

[@chris-graham]

you should try it with hollow centers since there's little heat generated on the centerline of the lathe

[@joelcoddington4715]

Its fun to watch and see the comments. Because we arent with you there in the shop. We get to watch and try to figure this out together with you.

[@lyulf0]

as soon as i saw you try friction welding copper all i could think was.. "Dude thats copper its thermal dissipation is amazingly high that will never friction weld except to itself" lol

[@ztynzo]

Since the brass was yielding before the copper, what if you preheated the copper to say 60-70% of it's melting point?

[@BrunoSilva-dt6zg]

Cooper thermal conductivity 386 and meltiing point 1084°C vs Brass thermal conductivity 96 and meltiing point 932°C. You wont be able to melt cooper with brass unless you heat the cooper and keep heating it during the friction weld so the cooper isnt able to dissipate the heat. that's my guess

[@westweld]

Win some you lose some Tim ...still enjoyed watching

[@brett567]

Need a better stomp brake on your lathe. A good stomping stops most lathes I've used pretty much instantly

[@tristansimonin1376]

If you make an internal cone and an exterior con it would keep the two pieces center I think and give more surface to weld

[@AlbiesProductsOnline]

Instead of trying to stop the chuck really fast just make a chuck key for the tail stock chuck that can go in to a drill so when you want to release it quickly just tap the drills trigger on reverse it’s the quickest way to get the best results you are after

[@CockatoobirdmanBill]

try to put a cone point on one and counter bore the other more surface may help...

[@Earthenfist]

I'm curious if part of this is that the copper has better heat conductivity than the Bronze or Brass- so the copper is overall staying cooler, while the other piece is heating just at the contact point and thus getting softer.

[@dansharpie]

bronze copper brass wire plaited together and forged ??

[@pirateskeleton7828]

Is it possible you were putting too much pressure, pushing it in too quickly? I would consider trying giving it more time spinning to get hot before pushing it in for the fusion. Just a thought.

[@remanjecarter2787]

Maybe a combination of less force on the tailstock and more time for friction to act could benefit this. It looked like you pushed in when it became malleable, not necessarily when it readily bonds to itself As someone who plays with copper and other non ferrous metals, part of the problem could be oxygen, since while it was heating up i noticed it go gray very quickly, since copper readily oxidizes far below the melt temperature, which may be causing it to only partially weld leaving voids where it wouldn't stick as well, because the oxide layer didn't heat enough to decompose or had a flux to help keep oxygen out and have it stick (electronics soldering really needs clean surfaces to bond, i'd think it would be similar) Your friction welding setup works well for steel, not sure if it reaches the temperature needed to bruteforce out of copper's readily oxidizing surface but if it is, you need to spend more time to let it heat up because of the difference in thermal conductivity as well But i am not a doctor, do not take my medical advice without consulting someone who knows for sure what they're doing beyond "haha melty metal goes blub blub in water"

[@andygif290368]

try it with pushing point into a tapered hole so the faces cant wander off and there would be more area to fuse.

[@jpsimon206]

Shouldn't bronze be able to join any two medals? Also, have you considered putting a center peck in each piece and packing it with high temp flux?

[@tiber_drake]

Попробуй выточить углубление в одном цилиндре и выступ в другом, так, чтоб они подходили друг к другу, и приварить их таким образом. В советском союзе такой метод использовали для удлинения сверел.

[@mmoon72]

It would be interesting to see if letting the piece in the tailstock turn at the end instead of trying to stop the chuck would have any better results.

[@TheDistur]

I like how much you're playing with that technique. Sorry it didn't work out this time.

[@Gkitchens1]

You might have better results if you taper the stationary bar and put a divet in the spinning bar to match the taper, so it doesn't want to walk on you or snap the weld as bad when it slows down

[@shannanritchie1712]

I wonder if you could use a mill to friction stir weld, that would be very cool

[@henryganzer4685]

maybe the effect depends from the different melting temperatures of these two materials ?

[@merlinmagnus873]

Looks like that tailstock alignment is part of what's killing it. (free) Maybe try a MT3 or MT4 to Weldon adapter instead of the drill chuck for a bit more rigidity? ($) Swapping out that giant 3 jaw for a much smaller one to loose rotational mass would let the lathe stop faster? ($$) Deck 3 flat on the back of the stock for better grip and to keep the stock from slipping down inside the chuck like its doing now? (free)

[@victoriaeads6126]

It's a metallurgical problem. The melting points of the metals vary too much for a successful lathe friction weld. It may be possible if the copper is heated fairly substantially beforehand, but it would be tricky.

[@henry67278]

you should also try making a spike and a recessed cone so that they can locate themselves.

[@franktaccetta784]

Neat experiment! Maybe if you increased the surface area you are trying to weld by creating a half sphere on copper and a half sphere in reverse on the bronze? What do you think? Thanks!

[@25centsapop]

Make a cone and cup instead of flat faces so you don't have all that climb and wobble! That's so cool!

[@makersmark5607]

You should try a smaller chuck at 5 or 6 thousand RPM - your lathe might be too big for that - and instead of breaking just release the end on the tail stock and let it wind down naturally.

[@stantilton2191]

Can it be work hardening under the pressure?

[@mushious]

I think the issue is probably dissimilar melting temperatures so the bronze is just grinding the copper to dust.

[@jamesbrandon8520]

If there was a way to release the chuck on the tail stock I think it would weld way better

[@muldoon67]

Might be worth getting i touch with 'The Slow Mo Guys' and they can film this in High Speed. It would be cool to try a friction welding a few different metals in slow mo.

[@ctged]

I'm thinking is there something going in the atomic level that prevents those elements fusing on each other?

[@TheKinchaos]

i'd try silver and copper. brass and bronze are alloys it don't react the same way

[@TheKinchaos]

brass is often used to prevent friction.

[@jonathan1427]

That poor lathe. :(

[@timpeduiker4660]

What if you try it with the milling machine

[@donniebeall8152]

I just received my Bottle Opener ty and keep up the great work !!

[@TimothyDyck]

Awesome! Glad to hear it! Thanks again for your support!

[@youtubeSuckssNow]

I have no idea why but I just started wondering if someone has put a ham in a lathe.

[@maknifeandrods7701]

You should release the chuck and let both spin till cool.

[@erikschiegg68]

If you lathe a negative cone tip in one part and a positive cone tip in the other, it would be self-centering when friction-welding. Took some hits, your lathe...