Can Math Prove God? The Argument From Eternal Truths

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I once made a video like this, just much less smart

[@FuddlyDud]

Well, as someone who is also “much less smart,” I seriously appreciate your content making these topics more digestible. So, thank you very much!! :)

[@Weavileiscool]

When I first saw he was making this I thought of that video

[@stefanwalicord2512]

Popular level videos are just as valuable as academic ones! It's like a staircase from accessibility to thorough-ness and everyone is somewhere and has something to offer on that spectrum to different audiences.

[@FuddlyDud]

@ Beautifully put sir! :)

[@NewCreation503]

@redeemedzoomer6053 I watched your video on this a while ago and I enjoyed it!

[@hstegersaurus]

As a mathematician, I found this video insightful and spot on! In what I have learned in my classes and in my own personal research, I have found it hard to not see the fingerprints of God in mathematics and everything new that I learn only puts me in more amazement of all that God is. There is such beauty in math and I find the argument that we create that beauty and cohesiveness very poor. A much better explanation would be, as you have argued, that there exists a God who orchestrated it all. When I discover new aspects of math, especially in topics like infinity, I feel that I am getting a peek into the character of God and how He works. Math can't fully define Him, but it's amazing to think that He shows Himself to us in this way also. Thank you for putting the time and effort into creating such an excellent video on this topic! I loved every minute of it!

[@CJoshuaJimenez]

*Redeemed Zoomer has entered the chat*

[@tategarrett3042]

Oh my gosh, 1 hour and 10 mins in what you were just saying made me realize that when we do math we are interacting with something that is PERFECT. That is - something that is uncorrupted and incorruptible. Unlike everything we see in the world, the beauty of math which is so contingent on its unchanging truth dates back even to before the fall and indeed into eternity past. While flowers and sunsets and everything we see, touch, and feel is corrupted by sin and will one day be restored to the perfection that it has lost, the absolute divine perfection and truth of math is now, was then, and forever will be what it is. What a beautiful realization - math is a perfect piece both of paradise lost and eternity to come.

[@stefanwalicord2512]

I made my mom watch this on a roadtrip and she liked it so that's high praise

[@TruthUnites]

My KZbin career is officially successful

[@rogeraraujo6488]

@@TruthUnites You're a true 21st century orthodox Christian: in dialogue with modernity and also rejecting anthropocentrism. I love your work so much.

[@pixelprincess9]

I am an engineer. I echo all of the sentiments that you’ve brought up, Dr Ortlund. Mathematical interconnectivity is absolutely beautiful. Godel’s incompleteness theory is very interesting evidence for God’s existence.

[@haitaelpastor976]

How does Godel's Theorem prove the biblical God, with all his traits and essence, exactly?

[@pixelprincess9]

@@haitaelpastor976 moving the goalposts

[@edwardzachary1426]

This is amazing! I studied math but never finished and I just started the video but if this is using Godel's incompleteness theorem, that has been on my mind since I learned it and a part of my own testimony! I have never really heard anyone use it as evidence of God but I do. Godel actually has a proof for God found in his journals after his death that is unrelated to his incompleteness theorem but an interesting one to look at!

[@KarstenArmstrong]

@@haitaelpastor976 It’s not meant to, it’s meant to support one of the premises that needs to be proven as a cumulative case for the Biblical God’s existence, namely, Gods existence.

[@haitaelpastor976]

@@KarstenArmstrong But we're not talking about the existence of a God, which may or may not be the case (no evidence so far, but who knows in the future; for now, it has only been consecutive God-of-the-gaps). We're talking about a very specific God, the God described in the Bible, with all his alleged attributes and traits. And to conclude it simply can't be you don't need but very basic logic.

[@codybartlett8743]

Current mathematics major here! The deeper you go into mathematical technique and philosophy, the more beautiful it all becomes. The sheer aesthetic of mathematics (and all of the philosophical and theological implications that come with it) is one of the profound reasons I continue to fall in love with thinking about the ontology of God. Great video!

[@joshuareeves5103]

If I were to make a Youth Group Lesson Plan I'd teach your points like this: 1. Math's Essential nature requires God's Eternity 2. Math's Inexhaustibility requires God's Infinity 3. Math's Orchestration requires God's Oneness 4. Math's Intelligibility requires God's Intelligence 5. Math's Precision requires God's Perfection 6. Math's Advantage requires God's Agency 7. Math's Beauty requires God's Beauty and Benevolence.

[@freedomfighter4990]

Very well said! 👏🏾

[@dannymish573]

I often teach students who want to avoid math, and struggle to make the point on how much there is to appreciate about these abstract yet permanent things. This was really refreshing!

[@thomaspack9219]

Made it to the end - great video! Thank you for your work in researching and sharing this topic 🤓

[@RyanJFaulk]

I had a powerful aesthetic experience when I saw WHY zeroes in quadratic equations led to asymptotes... The sense of awe at what dividing by zero meant was beautiful in the same way art and sunsets were beautiful.

[@7heHopeMan]

I know what you mean, because in calculus you learn this in depth and it was amazing when I learned it too, but you cannot actually divide by zero. You can take the limit of approaching zero, and you divide by that. Asymptotes exist because you cannot divide by zero.

[@philoalethia]

I am a philosopher/logician who specializes in modal (alethic) logic. Formal logic is closely connected to mathematics, especially in the last two centuries. Many of the assertions you made regarding the profound, interesting, and enduring qualities of mathematics could be equally made of formal logic. One thing to note: Problems arise (as you observed) when we consider things like numbers or operators to be objects in the same sense as other objects we experience and discern. However, if we think of these not as objects but as rules or principles of relationship among objects, common objections are avoided... if only to generate several other questions.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

@@philoalethia I have not had the opportunity to study logic as thoroughly as mathematics, but your assessment rings true from the little I've studied. I know Ramsey, a pioneer in graph theory, studied the two together. On a side note, have you read Poythress' text on Logic? I'm debating about getting it.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

@@philoalethia I have not had the opportunity to study logic as thoroughly as mathematics, but your assessment rings true from the little I've studied. I know Ramsey, a pioneer in graph theory, studied the two together. On a side note, have you read Poythress' text on Logic? I'm debating about getting it.

[@jeffreydavis9757]

Isn't logic basically just math? I remember discovering that in 2nd year group theory; it was one of those mind blowing experiences that we thinky types love (I'm sure you can relate).

[@philoalethia]

@@jeffreydavis9757, the relationship between logic and math -- whether one is prior to and is an extension of the other -- seems to be a question to which we do not have a clear answer. There is a kind of mutuality between them, but beyond that I dare not pretend to know the answer.

[@philoalethia]

@@TheEpicProOfMinecraf, I do not recall reading that work.

[@kategillis]

Loved this video, and all the videos in this vein, so much!! This one especially made me think of your proof from music/beauty a lot. Very well done, thank you!!

[@thenumbernine]

Mathematician here. Fun fact, you can only tie knots in 3 dimensions. Knots have been known to be related to vortices in fluids - one of the most challenging fields in mathematics. And at this moment knot-theory and quantum-gravity and their relation to quantum-computing are all very fast growing fields. Then there's those regular polytopes i.e. Platonic solids. They only exist in non-trivial forms in 3 and in 4 dimensions.

[@jordanlamkin4118]

Thank you Gavin for one of the best treatments of this topic I've ever seen. My background and passions are in pure math and computer science, and since you asked for feedback from people who study math, here is mine: Absolutely, the experience of math that you describe is accurate, if not understated (not that it would have been easy to do it justice). Learning math really does feel like stepping into God's mind, with all of the perfection, unity, intricacy, steadiness, authority, beauty, and exhilarating delight one might expect for such an activity.

[@sherriclowe1229]

Math professor here. Loved the combination of logic, math, and religious philosophy. Adding bits of this to my lesson on circles, logic/valid argument pattern of direct reasoning, and geometry/isometric shapes. Thanks for the time and research you put into this. I feel even more excited about Math and about God, the ultimate mathematician. I plan to watch it again as time permits.🤓

[@jty1999]

As someone who never excelled in math beyond algebra, geometry and basic statistics, this is very cool so far. If someone had explained math to me this way during my schooling, I may have been far more enthusiastic about it!

[@DPK5201]

As someone who never even excelled at them I am loathe to even watch.

[@Ehllix]

Same! I would have been excited about math rather than dreading it

[@nahomafriend]

Hello this is from ethiopia. i am an orthodox and of all the videos you put out there this i love because we protestants and orthodox couldn't be any more in disagreement and i don't believe we will be but this,the EXISTENT of GOD is what all christians share cherish.we are dependent on God for our being,we have our being in him,we live and move in him.the Aseity of God is our basis for our very life.and this video will help spread that.thanks gavin.

[@perilouspete]

Made it to the end! Looking forward to comprehending some of this some day 😊

[@ivanpalchey5991]

Thank you for this video. I’ve heard talks on this topic before, but I love how well you managed to explore all of its facets and look at it from multiple angles (ok enough math puns). Thank you again and may the Lord bless you!

[@Ethan13371]

Just when I’ve been desiring for more “math as evidence of God” content, it arrives!

[@tjflash60]

Thanks for the content. Obviously a lot of work and thought. Lots to ponder.

[@kylie5741]

This is such a fascinating topic. Reminds me of how I felt in 9th grade geometry, when I finally figured out a proof. The realm of abstract math is so different from everything else, especially when I compare how it feels to study calculus vs economics and financial markets. Both heavily involve math but they’re worlds apart

[@JamesClark-le7hu]

Math and Theology, two loves of mine. The least I can do for your ministry is watch every video all the way through. Thank you for your hard work and scholarship. We (Protestants) need more of it.

[@gigahorse1475]

Finished the video! Since you bring up “A Beautiful Mind,” I think it’s fascinating how many people in psychosis become obsessed with numbers. I think it speaks to how we as humans inherently see math as being at the core of bigger answers. Despite not being very mathematically minded, I became obsessed with numbers during psychosis. Two other people with schizophrenia who I know also had mathematical obsessions. It’s not hard to find at all. That’s not to say we are *good* at it like Nash. It’s just an innate desire I think the majority of people have. Or it is simply that our culture recognizes its importance.

[@prestonyannotti7661]

God bless you, Gavin! I really appreciate your work❤

[@jasonpoole2093]

I haven't read the comments, but this is an outstanding video. I completely agree that math is one of the most powerful arguments for God's existence. Even beyond the immutable nature of math in and of itself, the intimate connection between math and other realities is additional testimony in favor of the argument. For example, in music, the concepts of harmonics and octaves depend on precise mathematical relationships between frequencies; it is no coincidence that the beauty and splendor of music as perceived by the human ear corresponds to the alignment of math and sound. When I was in college, I took a course in formal logic. Formal logic is expressed in mathematical language and builds upon proofs that are as ironclad and immutable as any other of its cousins. The very fabric of how we think and reason is rooted in the language of logic, and we cannot escape it if we seek to live out a rational existence.

[@JohnnyHofmann]

This was an awesome video! Very insightful and enchanting considerations!

[@alfonso_barajas]

Brother, I love your ministry and you have helped me tremendously. Please continue producing great content and be all the more encouraged that the Lord is using you to help people like me.

[@bradleymarshall5489]

I was worried for a second you wouldn't address the divine simplicity objection but you did! Well done Dr. Ortlund (I made it to the end)!

[@jtbasener8740]

AHHHHHGGGG! This comes just as I have finished my last Calculus class. I will drive home while listening to it and think about it all the while I study for Calculus final! Thank you so very much, dear friend! Edit: I haven't finished the video yet, but I want to say that you are spot on. My dad is a mathematian, his dad was a mathematian and I am on the tail end of Calculus III and I entirely relate to everything you said about mathematical transcendence and beauty. I remember learning that derivation and integration were inverse functions and it was a truth somehow so powerful. We recently learned about Green's Theorom and Independence of Path while doing vector Calculus and I was dancing and singing while working with my classmates. It's just the same feeling as when I learned to appreciate Bach or to play a Feild Nocturne. The only way I could describe it is pure enchantment. It would be absurd to the point of blasphemy if any professor were so foolish as to confess subjectivism while pouring out this wonderful wisdom.

[@DPK5201]

A friend's signature at the bottom of his emails reads "Another day I have never used calculus."

[@jtbasener8740]

​@@DPK5201 Calculus doesn't need people to do it to be worth doing.

[@KadenCartwright]

While I am no practicing mathematician, I do have a degree in computer science and a career in software development and IT. A lot of what you are describing resonates really strongly with me. The feeling of fine tuning a system to perform exactly the actions you desire it to is an immensely creative endeavor. Euphoric is a great way to describe it. My endeavors in computer science, more than so may other things, have made me aware of realities that have been immensely faith sustaining in seasons of doubt personally

[@jimyoung9262]

Hey Dr. O. I was just talking to my friend Ryan Huber about you. I'm praying for your dad today. Thanks so much for the way you are serving the body of Christ.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks! Enjoyed getting to know Ryan better.

[@loganwillett2835]

Long road trip tomorrow, excited to give this a listen! Thanks as always for your commitment to beautifully and intelligently defending the truth of the faith Gavin!

[@quagsiremcgee1647]

Videos like this remind me why im getting a math degree

[@ChristisGod2002]

Always loved this argument

[@Brohamissus]

Incredible video! I was familiar with the concepts but this video placed them all in order and showed me how they fit together. Thanks!

[@Kvitka000]

Yes, math does in fact prove God ❤

[@ConvincedofChristianity]

Another great video, Brother Gavin!

[@tbrownthelegend]

Made it all the way to the end! Thanks for doing this.

[@eden6865]

Wow, just finished the video! Wonderful! Makes me want to run and get a theology, philosophy, AND math degree haha. Thank you for the time and effort you put into this. Planning on reading some of the books you mentioned over the holidays and begin work on making a shortened mini-presentation that I could give to the college students I minister to. Thank you!!

[@johnnygnash2253]

Good job, Dr O! I'm almost completely innumerate, but I'm past the halfway point and still loving this video.

[@jacobjuly6010]

What a joy to watch. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for how much research and effort went in to creating this. Just finished viewing the entire thing with my 13 yr old son who happens to be autistic and already a brilliant mathematician in his own right. We both were enthralled the entire time. I'm also excited, thinking of a few specific loved ones in my life that are non-believers, but that I know would at least be willing to engage with something like this, so thank you. P. S. - Love the depiction of math as a precise and pristine crystalline castle. Anyone else have music from the band Crystal Castles playing in their head the entire video?

[@cameronemmert2145]

I have gotten so much out of your ministry! Thank you for your efforts in taking the thoughts of some of some of the deep thinkers throughout history and bringing them to light for the laymen (and the educated as well).

[@truthovertea]

This is probably the best video ever made on the argument from math (eternal truths)

[@Josh_Was_Maybe_Here]

Not a mathematician here, but an engineer who enjoys the complex mathematical side of things (when jts not being examined!). One of my favourite things is when you see the same maths appearing in areas that seem totally unrelated at first glance, but it all uses the same building blocks. I think the fact that the world just makes sense and keeps working is one of the biggest comforts when stuff gets hard. Sure life is sometimes so rushed and messy that it feels like things are falling apart, but at the end of the day 2 + 2 will always equal 4. The area of a circle will always be πr^2. a^2 + b^2 will always equal c^2. God will always be God. And thats pretty awesome. Thanks for the video.

[@thevulture5750]

Have you seen how the KJV Bible is mathematically encoded by God

[@Josh_Was_Maybe_Here]

@thevulture5750 Hi there, personally, I'm naturally skeptical about claims regarding the KJV. To me it seems like just another translation that was excellent in its day and surely changed Christianity for the better (thinking back to Gavin's Tyndale video makes me really appreciate how things have change). But I decided to go and have a quick Google to see if there's anything to it and the first thing to show up is a post on r/Christianity by someone called RedeemedVulture, who I can only assume is you given the similar names across platforms (either that or it's a wild coincidence). To be frank, I'm not convinced. It seems like a lot of arbitrary subtracting of some things, adding of others and ignoring zeros in bigger numbers to get the value you want (which only works in base 10 so not quite the eternal truths displayed in this video). I think there's definitely impressive numerology and numerical themes in the bible, and I'm open to the concept of having some key words appear a certain amount of times, but it seems more likely to me that anything special in the KJV translation is a carry over from the original languages. Again I'm willing to change my mind if you present some good arguments, but from what I've seen it seems about as valid as Muslim claims that the Qur'an is divinely inspired by doing the same thing. Peace be with you brother.

[@Josh_Was_Maybe_Here]

​@@thevulture5750 Hi there, Personally, I'm skeptical of any claims about the KJV being a special translation but I'd be interested to hear what your reasons are for this translation being mathematically encoded by God? Don't get me wrong I think it was a great translation for it's time and was a significant step towards putting the word of God at every Christians finger tips (I appreciate this all the more thanks to Gavin's recent video on Tyndale!), but to put it in a special category of being specifically encoded with maths by God, that isn't found in other translations feels like a dangerous assumption. I decided to briefly look this up to see what information I could find reflecting this, and the first thing to come up is a post on r/Christianity by a user called redeemedvulture, who I can only assume is you based off the similar usernames (If not, that's a wild coincidence, if so, cool name, but why vultures?). To be frank, it seems like a lot of arbitrary jumping about with numbers and words to make it say what you want it to say and ignoring 0's where you don't want them (which only works in base 10, so not quite the eternal truths we looked at in the video). Even those ones that appear to be true and interesting, I see no reason to say they're from the KJV when they're likely present in the original languages too! Sorry if that's not actually you who made that Reddit post, in that case I'd like to hear your reasons to see if there's anything to it (or even if it is you and you want to make your case again, I'd be interested to read it), but it seems no more convincing to me than Muslim arguments for the perfection of the Qur'an from seemingly arbitrary things. Peace be with you brother

[@Yj-Fj]

And 1 x 1 x 1 =1

[@joshuareeves5103]

Yes! math is one of the greatest arguments for God and it goes so well with your video on how music proves God as well. Math and Music and Science all go hand in hand and it is so profound and beautiful. I'm an engineer and I was always surprised how many of my friends were atheists despite being face to face with this enormous witness to God's existence. Creation certainly declares and unfortunately many minds have become darkened because they suppress the truth.

[@seanpierce9386]

The full phrase is “suppress the truth in unrighteousness”, from Romans 1:18. Your comment implies that this suppression is intentional and sinful, since the truth is obvious. This kind of thinking is at odds with honest conversation. I myself am a mathematical realist. But after significant engagement with this topic, I concluded that Turing-Completeness is sufficient to explain what we see. This realization-that “God did it” is not a satisfying or useful explanation-was a small contribution to my eventual deconstruction and deconversion. I had never even considered atheism until a specific point where I suddenly connected the dots. It’s not that I didn’t want to, or was mad at God, or just wanted to sin. I actually wanted to believe and found I couldn’t. Maybe ask your friends why they’re atheists. Sometimes you have to set aside the urge to evangelize and just ask questions because you’re genuinely curious.

[@joshuareeves5103]

@@seanpierce9386 I am convinced it is intentional. I'm not saying it's so obvious what the truth is, but I am convinced that it's obvious what is not the truth. There are some things so absurd that they are never the mainstream assumption until very very recently in human history. In my estimation, the denial of the existence of God is one of these along side the denial of other clear and fundamental realities such as the existence of male&female, the definition of marriage between a man&woman, etc. As you suggest I should, I have discussed with my atheist friends on this earnestly and I do still hold this conclusion. Though I consider these friends intelligent and even good people (from a human perspective) yet I believe they intentionally overlook things for the sake of not assenting to a deity. Even agnosticism would be less absurd in my estimation than atheism. I mean this in no disrespect. I don't mean to imply that you or my friends deny God solely to give themselves pardon for their sins. I'm not really assigning a reason because I think different people have different reasons but when it boils down to it I'm convinced it is a suppression of the truth, and this is a sinful thing to do.

[@williamrepenning5753]

Made it to the end Gavin! I’m a long time viewer and your channel has brought me so much peace and joy, I’m very grateful for men like you who’ve now encouraged me to pursue ministry and share the gospel. I’ll send this my friend whose a math genius, he’ll love it :)

[@h00sha]

Made it to the end, and took notes along the way. Great job! I love math and for a long long time regretted being too cool for school to pursue it further, despite my teachers' encouragement of my 'gift'. You're so good at explaining things, Dr. Ortlund, I wonder if you would consider my suggestion for a future video. I've coined the term "omnipathent" because it seems ridiculous to me that we Christians, especially Catholics like me, want to emphasize God's intellect and rationality. But God's jealousy is perfect, his joy is perfect, his LOVE is perfect. These are all feelings! Feelings are good and, when rightly ordered, accompany us to holiness. What does history have to say about this? Oh, and I have news for you, lol. You're already a nerd and nerding out becomes you quite well. Have a blessed Advent and Merry Christmas.

[@movingailab]

Looking forward to listening to this in detail!

[@kjhg323]

Great video. I would add two points: 1) Another relevant property of mathematics is its universality. For example, theorems about triangles (such as the fact that any Euclidean triangle has angles that add to 180 degrees) apply to all triangles that have ever existed, will exist, or could exist. Thus, the physical world by itself cannot be the ultimate ground of these truths, because the physical world does not contain every possible triangle (and any physical triangle is imperfect anyway). 2) Saying that "Platonism" is the view that abstract objects exist independently of God is possibly accurate in the modern world, but historically Platonists have argued that abstract objects ("Forms") only have their being through participation in God (or "the Good"), who is the ultimate cause and explanation of all Forms. Plato says the following: "in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed." (Republic, book VII)

[@BoldUlysses]

Listened to the whole thing on a road trip from NC back to TN by way of VA (since I40 is closed). It made for some fascinating listening to complement the natural beauty outside!

[@bblakely]

Was thinking just last week how incredible and useful math is in various applications as a research engineer. Glad to see this video!

[@Celtickaven]

I’ve only studied undergraduate math in my engineering degree, but for me applicability of math theory and the translation to physical reality was the epiphany moment. Seeing the interconnectedness of calculus in fluid dynamics, E&M theory, quantum mechanics, mechanics and controls and even in electronic music class. Functions such as the Laplace transformation and Fourier Transformation allow the ability to solve dynamic or electrical systems/or combination of both by relating the variables to each other based the physical relationship of work or energy. As many of the system equations are built on sin and cos functions for oscillations the interconnected Fourier transform relates those to unit circle variations to break down wave forms like in music. The amazing part it that vector analysis uses the same tools to build a working structure like in machine design which shows the absolutely mind blowing transcendence of math.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

PDE's especially demonstrate how a seemingly simple setup can have such great complexity. The thing which accounts for the complexity, which seems to govern and predict it, is mathematics.

[@rockylily36]

Trig identities come to mind. Very cool when things just click together

[@JLothman08]

So good.

[@JonathanD7]

I always did great in math, but when I first took calculus that is when I realized how fascinating math truly is.

[@niccolopaganini1782]

Kinda off topic but the sweater looks great on you, Gavin! 😊

[@ryanmlc]

He is a bit of a good looking rooster isn’t he? Brains and beauty - is there anything he can’t do😂

[@bretbrooks7870]

As a Christian high school math teacher who double majored in math and philosophy, this video is something of an intersection of many of my interests. I greatly enjoyed it. In the teaching of math, especially in a year teaching a new class, I regularly have moments where I feel as though I have truly discovered. Certainly the mathematical truth or beauty has previously been discovered, but that does not cheapen the joy brought in the discovery. That God has revealed himself in those moments is certain.

[@AbebaDamesa-wc7ls]

Dr Gavin you are on great work God bless you and your ministry.

[@jayakare]

Really well said and researched Thanks for the video 🙏

[@BibelFAQ]

I just listened to the end. Awesome! I stumbled across this argument while listening to the No Dumb Questions podcast when they talked about math tricks and was really intrigued. I tried reaching out to you through instagram and a comment under the short form of your video on the conquest of Canaan. I am working on a long form video on the topic (in German) at the moment but it would also be really cool if we could collaborate and provided your short video in German. Not just the audio, but the whole animation. I would love to hear from you. Keep up the good work!

[@TruthUnites]

not able to collaborate, sorry, but good luck on your video!

[@shaunschulte2258]

Very edifying. Thank you!

[@Roescoe]

And this video offers some explanation for why primes are so fascinating to so many. "They are just there"

[@doomerquiet1909]

Finishing some college algebra class now, this is a refreshing break before getting back into it.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

I haven't listened all the way through yet (plan on it for my commute home), but Danilo Diedrichs (a professor at Wheaton College) and I are working on a paper adjacent to this! It seems like one could object that, like the laws of logic, numbers and such are not "things" at all, but rather a way of describing the permutations of being. That is, to say "1+1-2" is to give a kind of logical law, like "if A = B then Ax = Bx" or something similar. Hence, math needs no further explanation, as numbers are sheer descriptions of the permutations of being. But that does then kick the can down--why is being such that we have differentiation and unity at all? Here, I think the Trinity is uniquely explanatorily powerful. All numbers and mathematical operations, it seems to me, are various contemplations on unity and multiplicity. That "1 and 1 make 2" is a reflection on duplicating a unity twice over. The triune God has in the very way his own being subsists the resources by which to derive *all* numbers, by reflecting on "oneness" and "threeness" and the related ideas that contains--multiplicity, division, addition, substraction, etcetera). Once God then derives all numbers from his own being, all math is simply contemplations on relating those numbers together. At least thus far goes the argument we're making as we flesh this out. I think this is a fascinating line of thought. What were the books you found helpful?

[@TruthUnites]

nice! The ones I benefited from were also cited. Rueben Hersch is older but fascinating.

[@seanpierce9386]

This implies that the nature of God is contingent upon mathematics, not the other way around. It’s also not unique, since someone positing a monotheistic God with two persons could make the same argument.

[@AVVS0meness]

Math is so “youthful” ;) thanks for another great video, Dr. Ortlund! I love this argument!

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

I have yet to watch this video, but I do want to say that I believe this argument has huge aesthetic importance. I studied mathematics in college and very seriously flirted with getting a PhD. I found that the purity of the subject made it impossible to explain our ability to study it. I could only account for mathematics as something that could be studied if I thought that there was some specific, mathematical intuition. That intuition could not be accounted for without mathematical objects. The objects could not be accounted for without something to ground them. The relationship between our physical world and the mathematical realm could not be accounted for without something that relates them. The consistency, the beauty, the wonder of all of it was not accidental. It is infinitely deep, provably so. Even it's strangest results are consonant with our understanding of the real. Mathematics is awesome and it points to something far greater.

[@karl5395]

Great maths video Gavin - I'm a part time maths teacher in the UK. The subject of the interconnectivity of branches and concepts within mathematics comes up a lot in proof. Quite often in the most unexpected and unrelated branch of maths. I use this to instill a sense of anticipation and excitement.

[@timadamson4713]

Cool video! Very interested to know how Gavin supports realism when it pertains to essences, in defence against nominalism, yet holds to some form of theist evolution. It seems to be a decent contradiction if not entirely problemactic for any Christian soteriology

[@Jack-h7p1l]

Made it to the end. Many stimulating ideas

[@denissaarsova5996]

I fall in love with God every day, more and more... I used to hate maths when I was at school, but if I knew Him back then the sense of awe of exploring Him and His marvellous mind every day would make my teenage years a lot more meaningful ❤ Nevertheless, I'm just in the beginning of my Christian walk and literally every day I learn something magnificent about Him. Thank you and God bless you, brother Gavin! 🙏

[@jeffk6673]

Great video... reminds me of some of Hugh Ross's work. Thanks Gavin!

[@reillygault]

I watched the whole video! Thank you so much Gavin! I've never been so existentially comforted by math 😂😂

[@reillygault]

I would love to hear more of your approach to a similar abductive argument using music, which you mention briefly in your book "Why God Makes Sense in a World that Doesn't." As a world musician, I would love to dig into this more, with an international lens! I think that there are beautiful rhythmic structures around the world that point directly to God, some of which I even think can share the gospel! Would love to learn more about the relevant theology and philosophy to this area of ethnomusicology

[@HelloFromSaints]

This was fascinating! Thank you for the thorough research! This video will be a gateway for me into so many topics! Math is a truth that units!

[@killingtime9283]

This was phenomenal Gavin. 😀

[@paulacoyle5685]

33:30 but Music is math expressed in sound. (Musician here, not really a mathematician, but my husband is a computer in math nerd, and a musician, and so are our kids & son-in-law) When my dad (music prof) explained to me when I was little, that music was all math, it really helped my ability to read music more accurately. But yes, the two concepts are intricately connected.

[@Roescoe]

29:00 Not a working mathematician, but I minored in it in school. The more I went down the rabbit hole with modular arithmetic(used in cryptography), eigenvalues(used in machine learning), discrete math(not sure what it's used in exactly, but it gives great mathematical verbiage and well it's whole numbers so weird Diophantine equations), and primes the weirder it got that these puzzles just solve. Like there's no reason they should be so neat or the various mathematical concepts should even relate to each other. Math is almost as beautiful as music to me, but music wins since it's closer to consciousness itself.

[@Roescoe]

Euler's totient function (you learn in modular arithmetic) is quite incredible.

[@Roescoe]

Then there's the question of the transcendentals fitting into our everyday life. Like why are Pi and e so pervasive in our world? are they normal? (all digits equally likely) Why can't we determine a "last digit" or a pattern within them?

[@tystovall6574]

Halfway through, but needed to put in my two cents: 1) In regards to the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, I would consider contemplating the history of math. As we discovered new mathematical concepts, we would then find applications. We start with the natural numbers then we develop fractions. We think we have everything until we learn about irrational numbers (Pythagoras) and then those pop up everywhere. Then we entertain the idea of negatives as useful for solving problems only to later have banks use the concept of debt. Someone says I'm going to take square roots of negative numbers and then they become essential for quantum theory. It seems where the math goes, reality follows. 2) You should really look into Godel's Incompleteness Theorems. "Godel's Proof" by Enrst Nagel is a great place to start.

[@iangoodman4633]

Well done brother. That must have been fun researching this

[@bobleroe3859]

Peter Kreeft writes of the music of Bach as proof of God. I think it is the music's mathematical precision that leads to that conclusion

[@Pacemasterx]

Shared this!

[@ملحدوالحمدلله-ق1ه]

John Lenox would love this video ❤️

[@vpconroy]

Agreed ... would love to see Gavin interview John Lennox at some point about this topic

[@TruthUnites]

I love John Lennox!

[@mattbankert2693]

Im an electrical engineer so i had to take many math classes and continue to use math in my job, never thought of it this way just kind of took the reality of math and the power of it for granted, awesome to see calculus can glorify God and not just stress me out 😅

[@QuixEnd]

man! ive been wanting to break into this subject for years and just hadnt been able to find enough of the right material to catch on. *the intrigue of math has been elusive for me but always there

[@gracenotes5379]

"The great mathematician fully, almost ruthlessly, exploits the domain of permissible reasoning and skirts the impermissible. That his recklessness does not lead him into a morass of contradictions is a miracle in itself: certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin’s process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess." - Eugene Wigner from his 1960 paper titled The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics In The Natural Sciences. Later, in the same paper, Wigner writes: "It is not at all natural that 'laws of nature' exist, much less that man is able to discover them."

[@johndoh795]

This is one of the lines of the argumentation in TAG (Transcendental Argument for God). Things make sense once you realize the Christian paradigm is the only one that can account for all the Transcendentals. It also leaves you with the mental image of the Atheist as a man suspended on a branch furiously sawing at it.

[@mmv10]

Please do, nerd out!

[@aleckboyd91]

My accountant brain is getting excited for this 🤣

[@levifox2818]

I can’t claim “mathematician” but I did get my bachelor’s in theoretical math. I enjoyed the video. I’ve always argued that materialism is futile because it can’t explain math in a coherent way. Trying to argue that it is our thoughts (which are derived from material components) doesn’t seem to address what it is, only how we think about it. Although I don’t know about joy, I’ve definitely experienced math as beautiful, when a theorem is so neatly derived from its components. Your video did bring an interesting visual in my head. The wonder of math is that we can go from an empirical world, tunnel through a rationalist realm, and then enter back into the world, more or less where we expected to be. There’s this unexpected correspondence between the two realms.

[@Young_Anglican]

The electric blue sweater goes very hard

[@robertgustafson3835]

I'm a retired research mathematician and a Christian. It is hard to compare the absolute thrill of discovery; it's very much like coming upon the Grand Canyon for the first time and saying: "Is this real"? Or saying: "There must be a sublimely intelligent God who created such a beautiful (mathematical) truth!" You feel like worshiping such a creator, rather than created things! Research math is a rarefied world, with abstractions upon abstractions like category theory, but often the most abstract objects are anchored at some point to surprisingly simple concrete ideas. My son (also a research mathematician) described mathematics as "three broad areas: geometry, algebra, and analysis. Geometry studies space, algebra studies time and analysis studies infinity." So mathematical intuition is somehow anchored to the world . If God created math to understand nature, then nature was also created to understand math!

[@dresendrei321]

So good!

[@gingersaiyan5516]

This was an awesome video. I have always been fascinated with math but in a fanboy kind of way. Did you come across Vern Poythress’ work on math from a theological and philosophical standpoint. He has a doctorate from Harvard in math and teaches theology and biblical studies at Westminster theological seminary. He would be a great person to bounce ideas off of. Thank you again for all the hard work in making this great video. I also sent your video on divine hiddenness to a friend struggling with that question.

[@Chris-j1y4x]

Which miracles documented in Scripture would you have to not believe happened in order for you to not believe any of the miracles documented in Scripture?

[@Kai_Theos_en_ho_Logos]

Reminds me of the latter part of Sagan's Contact: “Palmer, this is the only way. This is the only thing that would convince a skeptic. Imagine we find something. It doesn’t have to be tremendously complicated. Just something more orderly than could accumulate by chance that many digits into pi. That’s all we need. Then mathematicians all over the world can find exactly the same pattern or message or whatever it proves to be. Then there are no sectarian divisions. Everybody begins reading the same Scripture...Everyone could be a believer." (pg 361)

[@Kai_Theos_en_ho_Logos]

16:57 My bad... should have watched the whole video before commenting.

[@vickipritchard2082]

To the end❤

[@Roescoe]

Yep you just barely scratched the surface. Great intro to the topic. I've rarely found a person who's gone deep into mathematics who can remain an atheist. One of my closest friends is an atheist, but his dad (a math professor) is deistic. My friend often admits to his mathematical ignorance. It's often where our theological discussions have to end because he doesn't have the mathematical grounding to have confidence in various calculations or the concepts of causation.

[@seanpierce9386]

Take a look at Turing Completeness and computational universality. I think it’s critical for explaining emergence and our ability to understand mathematics. It’s a wonderful experience to connect the dots and see why that is. Also, by “causality” I believe you’re referring to the Kalam. Fundamentally, the argument is about the nature of induction and finite versus infinite causal chains. There are two problems with it: 1. It assumes that the infinite time solution is inconsistent, which is simply not true. The Big Bang theory does not posit a beginning to time, only to our universe as we know it. Inflation, yet to be empirically verified, gets us closer. But the singularity is just an artifact of reference frame, just like the North Pole. 2. Even if there is a “first cause”, claiming that it’s God is jumping to conclusions. To carry in the North Pole analogy, it’s like saying “There is a most North being, and it’s Santa.” Personally, I don’t see how naturalism and deism can be differentiated in an unfalsifiable way. Maybe you should have a conversation with your friend’s dad and find out why he advocates Deism specifically.

[@Roescoe]

@@seanpierce9386 I could write a few paragraphs about both of them, but yes we've had discussions about all the things you mentioned.

[@Roescoe]

I'm not particularly interested in the Kalam, more so that certain things have very unlikely causes that is on the subject of evolution.

[@seanpierce9386]

@@Roescoe Sorry, I’m forgetful when it comes to these things. Your profile pic does look familiar, but I can’t recall what we’ve discussed previously. Are you referring to an inconsistency in the evolutionary process? The origin of life? Or is it a theistic evolution thing? In any case, I doubt such an argument could point to God in general or the Christian God specifically without first making some critical assumptions.

[@Roescoe]

@@seanpierce9386 Sorry for the confusion the first person plural and references to other people are all my friend and his father. "In any case, I doubt such an argument could point to God" It's more that I'm saying there's disagreements that occur of purely mathematical nature that are likely things that fall out of a pure materialistic perspective. So while we don't always discuss theism head on, when going over topics of information, probability, logic, even the required number of fixations for a population to retain a trait, we come to different conclusions.

[@rooker5]

Someone bought me a copy of your book yesterday - What it means to be Protestant. I believe he is worried that I am going down the Easter Orthodox pathway.

[@joshuareeves5103]

Gavin, check out Fibonacci sequence and it's relevance in the world. It's amazing.

[@Roescoe]

Yeah various mathematical facts are basically descriptions of beauty which is really not "necessary" in its simplicity.