Can Math Prove God? The Argument From Eternal Truths

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I once made a video like this, just much less smart

[@FuddlyDud]

Well, as someone who is also “much less smart,” I seriously appreciate your content making these topics more digestible. So, thank you very much!! :)

[@Weavileiscool]

When I first saw he was making this I thought of that video

[@stefanwalicord]

Popular level videos are just as valuable as academic ones! It's like a staircase from accessibility to thorough-ness and everyone is somewhere and has something to offer on that spectrum to different audiences.

[@FuddlyDud]

@ Beautifully put sir! :)

[@NewCreation503]

@redeemedzoomer6053 I watched your video on this a while ago and I enjoyed it!

[@stefanwalicord]

I made my mom watch this on a roadtrip and she liked it so that's high praise

[@TruthUnites]

My KZbin career is officially successful

[@rogeraraujo6488]

@@TruthUnites You're a true 21st century orthodox Christian: in dialogue with modernity and also rejecting anthropocentrism. I love your work so much.

[@sherriclowe1229]

Math professor here. Loved the combination of logic, math, and religious philosophy. Adding bits of this to my lesson on circles, logic/valid argument pattern of direct reasoning, and geometry/isometric shapes. Thanks for the time and research you put into this. I feel even more excited about Math and about God, the ultimate mathematician. I plan to watch it again as time permits.🤓

[@ananonymousoyster365]

You may be interested in the book Necessary Existence by Pruss and Rasmussen. Especially chapter 7, addressing this particular argument

[@RyanJFaulk]

I had a powerful aesthetic experience when I saw WHY zeroes in quadratic equations led to asymptotes... The sense of awe at what dividing by zero meant was beautiful in the same way art and sunsets were beautiful.

[@7heHopeMan]

I know what you mean, because in calculus you learn this in depth and it was amazing when I learned it too, but you cannot actually divide by zero. You can take the limit of approaching zero, and you divide by that. Asymptotes exist because you cannot divide by zero.

[@tategarrett3042]

Oh my gosh, 1 hour and 10 mins in what you were just saying made me realize that when we do math we are interacting with something that is PERFECT. That is - something that is uncorrupted and incorruptible. Unlike everything we see in the world, the beauty of math which is so contingent on its unchanging truth dates back even to before the fall and indeed into eternity past. While flowers and sunsets and everything we see, touch, and feel is corrupted by sin and will one day be restored to the perfection that it has lost, the absolute divine perfection and truth of math is now, was then, and forever will be what it is. What a beautiful realization - math is a perfect piece both of paradise lost and eternity to come.

[@hrvad]

For quite some time I've cobbled together the view that when we do math it's like working with God's footprint on the universe, or it's the closest to messing around with the Word. My greatest take from this video is that it explains the unity of God. Just like all math is interconnected so is God, who is the source of math or who IS math. And from it follows how he IS the eternal truth, incapable of lying, and perhaps why he is good. I sometimes imagine it in my mind as a golden realm of pure math, but a real one that exists. The math we humans do obviously is inherently inert. But if you ARE math, you could probably speak all things into existence by uttering a single Word.

[@tategarrett3042]

@@hrvad That's interesting. I'm not sure I agree/articualte it the same way but I definitely think that by doing math we're participating in one of the most fascinating activities there is by dint of it being - to my knowledge - perfect and unfallen.

[@codybartlett8743]

Current mathematics major here! The deeper you go into mathematical technique and philosophy, the more beautiful it all becomes. The sheer aesthetic of mathematics (and all of the philosophical and theological implications that come with it) is one of the profound reasons I continue to fall in love with thinking about the ontology of God. Great video!

[@joshuareeves5103]

If I were to make a Youth Group Lesson Plan I'd teach your points like this: 1. Math's Essential nature requires God's Eternity 2. Math's Inexhaustibility requires God's Infinity 3. Math's Orchestration requires God's Oneness 4. Math's Intelligibility requires God's Intelligence 5. Math's Precision requires God's Perfection 6. Math's Advantage requires God's Agency 7. Math's Beauty requires God's Beauty and Benevolence.

[@freedomfighter4990]

Very well said! 👏🏾

[@nahomafriend]

Hello this is from ethiopia. i am an orthodox and of all the videos you put out there this i love because we protestants and orthodox couldn't be any more in disagreement and i don't believe we will be but this,the EXISTENT of GOD is what all christians share cherish.we are dependent on God for our being,we have our being in him,we live and move in him.the Aseity of God is our basis for our very life.and this video will help spread that.thanks gavin.

[@dannymish573]

I often teach students who want to avoid math, and struggle to make the point on how much there is to appreciate about these abstract yet permanent things. This was really refreshing!

[@bretbrooks7870]

As a Christian high school math teacher who double majored in math and philosophy, this video is something of an intersection of many of my interests. I greatly enjoyed it. In the teaching of math, especially in a year teaching a new class, I regularly have moments where I feel as though I have truly discovered. Certainly the mathematical truth or beauty has previously been discovered, but that does not cheapen the joy brought in the discovery. That God has revealed himself in those moments is certain.

[@pixelprincess9]

I am an engineer. I echo all of the sentiments that you’ve brought up, Dr Ortlund. Mathematical interconnectivity is absolutely beautiful. Godel’s incompleteness theory is very interesting evidence for God’s existence.

[@haitaelpastor976]

How does Godel's Theorem prove the biblical God, with all his traits and essence, exactly?

[@pixelprincess9]

@@haitaelpastor976 moving the goalposts

[@edwardzachary1426]

This is amazing! I studied math but never finished and I just started the video but if this is using Godel's incompleteness theorem, that has been on my mind since I learned it and a part of my own testimony! I have never really heard anyone use it as evidence of God but I do. Godel actually has a proof for God found in his journals after his death that is unrelated to his incompleteness theorem but an interesting one to look at!

[@KarstenArmstrong]

@@haitaelpastor976 It’s not meant to, it’s meant to support one of the premises that needs to be proven as a cumulative case for the Biblical God’s existence, namely, Gods existence.

[@haitaelpastor976]

@@KarstenArmstrong But we're not talking about the existence of a God, which may or may not be the case (no evidence so far, but who knows in the future; for now, it has only been consecutive God-of-the-gaps). We're talking about a very specific God, the God described in the Bible, with all his alleged attributes and traits. And to conclude it simply can't be you don't need but very basic logic.

[@CJoshuaJimenez]

*Redeemed Zoomer has entered the chat*

[@jty1999]

As someone who never excelled in math beyond algebra, geometry and basic statistics, this is very cool so far. If someone had explained math to me this way during my schooling, I may have been far more enthusiastic about it!

[@DPK5201]

As someone who never even excelled at them I am loathe to even watch.

[@Ehllix]

Same! I would have been excited about math rather than dreading it

[@hstegersaurus]

As a mathematician, I found this video insightful and spot on! In what I have learned in my classes and in my own personal research, I have found it hard to not see the fingerprints of God in mathematics and everything new that I learn only puts me in more amazement of all that God is. There is such beauty in math and I find the argument that we create that beauty and cohesiveness very poor. A much better explanation would be, as you have argued, that there exists a God who orchestrated it all. When I discover new aspects of math, especially in topics like infinity, I feel that I am getting a peek into the character of God and how He works. Math can't fully define Him, but it's amazing to think that He shows Himself to us in this way also. Thank you for putting the time and effort into creating such an excellent video on this topic! I loved every minute of it!

[@JamesClark-le7hu]

Math and Theology, two loves of mine. The least I can do for your ministry is watch every video all the way through. Thank you for your hard work and scholarship. We (Protestants) need more of it.

[@chrissharrock3834]

I finished listening to the podcast version of this. Definitely enjoyed your content and I'm grateful for your ministry!

[@philo-aletheia]

I am a philosopher/logician who specializes in modal (alethic) logic. Formal logic is closely connected to mathematics, especially in the last two centuries. Many of the assertions you made regarding the profound, interesting, and enduring qualities of mathematics could be equally made of formal logic. One thing to note: Problems arise (as you observed) when we consider things like numbers or operators to be objects in the same sense as other objects we experience and discern. However, if we think of these not as objects but as rules or principles of relationship among objects, common objections are avoided... if only to generate several other questions.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

@@philo-aletheia I have not had the opportunity to study logic as thoroughly as mathematics, but your assessment rings true from the little I've studied. I know Ramsey, a pioneer in graph theory, studied the two together. On a side note, have you read Poythress' text on Logic? I'm debating about getting it.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

@@philo-aletheia I have not had the opportunity to study logic as thoroughly as mathematics, but your assessment rings true from the little I've studied. I know Ramsey, a pioneer in graph theory, studied the two together. On a side note, have you read Poythress' text on Logic? I'm debating about getting it.

[@jeffreydavis9757]

Isn't logic basically just math? I remember discovering that in 2nd year group theory; it was one of those mind blowing experiences that we thinky types love (I'm sure you can relate).

[@philo-aletheia]

@@jeffreydavis9757, the relationship between logic and math -- whether one is prior to and is an extension of the other -- seems to be a question to which we do not have a clear answer. There is a kind of mutuality between them, but beyond that I dare not pretend to know the answer.

[@philo-aletheia]

@@TheEpicProOfMinecraf, I do not recall reading that work.

[@alfonso_barajas]

Brother, I love your ministry and you have helped me tremendously. Please continue producing great content and be all the more encouraged that the Lord is using you to help people like me.

[@prestonyannotti7661]

God bless you, Gavin! I really appreciate your work❤

[@bradleymarshall5489]

I was worried for a second you wouldn't address the divine simplicity objection but you did! Well done Dr. Ortlund (I made it to the end)!

[@jordanlamkin4118]

Thank you Gavin for one of the best treatments of this topic I've ever seen. My background and passions are in pure math and computer science, and since you asked for feedback from people who study math, here is mine: Absolutely, the experience of math that you describe is accurate, if not understated (not that it would have been easy to do it justice). Learning math really does feel like stepping into God's mind, with all of the perfection, unity, intricacy, steadiness, authority, beauty, and exhilarating delight one might expect for such an activity.

[@loganwillett2835]

Long road trip tomorrow, excited to give this a listen! Thanks as always for your commitment to beautifully and intelligently defending the truth of the faith Gavin!

[@JordanKirschke]

Phenomenal, Dr. Ortlund: the depth of research, use of language/analogies, creativity in constructing the argument. Your excitement is also quite contagious. The argument from mathematics captivated my attention a year or so ago and still continues to do so, but I haven't seen it laid out with such depth and detail before. One thought I had in viewing your lists that relate the attributes of math to God's nature is the relationship between the mathematical structure of the universe and man's rational ability to know that mathematical structure, and how the Judeo-Christian worldview uniquely accounts for this correspondence. You might imagine on the left list, "correspondence" (representing the relationship between the math imbedded in the universe and our mathematical comprehension), and on the right list, "Imago Dei" (representing the cause the correspondence). I recognize they don't perfectly match the themes of your lists (math's attributes and God's nature), but the "correspondence" between the math in the universe and our mathematical minds is nonetheless best explained by the Judeo-Christian worldview, which says we are made in the image of the mathematical Creator of the universe. Curious how you might fit this within your argument. Tremendous job, and thank you for making this video!

[@JamesonGraber]

Math professor here. I really enjoyed this. I also think of doing math as exploring a world of "Platonic forms," though I find this description to be more intuitive than precise. I hesitate to think of math as God's "thoughts." For one thing, my own thoughts most often give me the sensation that they come from outside my conscious self. For another, this "ice palace" seems distinct from thoughts we have about the ice palace. A theorem and its proof are distinct from the reality that theorem describes, in the same way that a map is distinct from real places in the world. I have my doubts about whether classical theism is the "best explanation" of the existence of math, but I do think there is something deep about the last part of the video re: the Trinity. This seems like it deserves a whole discussion by itself.

[@cameronemmert2145]

I have gotten so much out of your ministry! Thank you for your efforts in taking the thoughts of some of some of the deep thinkers throughout history and bringing them to light for the laymen (and the educated as well).

[@gigahorse1475]

Finished the video! Since you bring up “A Beautiful Mind,” I think it’s fascinating how many people in psychosis become obsessed with numbers. I think it speaks to how we as humans inherently see math as being at the core of bigger answers. Despite not being very mathematically minded, I became obsessed with numbers during psychosis. Two other people with schizophrenia who I know also had mathematical obsessions. It’s not hard to find at all. That’s not to say we are *good* at it like Nash. It’s just an innate desire I think the majority of people have. Or it is simply that our culture recognizes its importance.

[@johnnygnash2253]

Good job, Dr O! I'm almost completely innumerate, but I'm past the halfway point and still loving this video.

[@ivanpalchey5991]

Thank you for this video. I’ve heard talks on this topic before, but I love how well you managed to explore all of its facets and look at it from multiple angles (ok enough math puns). Thank you again and may the Lord bless you!

[@perilouspete]

Made it to the end! Looking forward to comprehending some of this some day 😊

[@Brohamissus]

Incredible video! I was familiar with the concepts but this video placed them all in order and showed me how they fit together. Thanks!

[@jimyoung9262]

Hey Dr. O. I was just talking to my friend Ryan Huber about you. I'm praying for your dad today. Thanks so much for the way you are serving the body of Christ.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks! Enjoyed getting to know Ryan better.

[@eden6865]

Wow, just finished the video! Wonderful! Makes me want to run and get a theology, philosophy, AND math degree haha. Thank you for the time and effort you put into this. Planning on reading some of the books you mentioned over the holidays and begin work on making a shortened mini-presentation that I could give to the college students I minister to. Thank you!!

[@jtbasener1810]

AHHHHHGGGG! This comes just as I have finished my last Calculus class. I will drive home while listening to it and think about it all the while I study for Calculus final! Thank you so very much, dear friend! Edit: I haven't finished the video yet, but I want to say that you are spot on. My dad is a mathematian, his dad was a mathematian and I am on the tail end of Calculus III and I entirely relate to everything you said about mathematical transcendence and beauty. I remember learning that derivation and integration were inverse functions and it was a truth somehow so powerful. We recently learned about Green's Theorom and Independence of Path while doing vector Calculus and I was dancing and singing while working with my classmates. It's just the same feeling as when I learned to appreciate Bach or to play a Feild Nocturne. The only way I could describe it is pure enchantment. It would be absurd to the point of blasphemy if any professor were so foolish as to confess subjectivism while pouring out this wonderful wisdom.

[@DPK5201]

A friend's signature at the bottom of his emails reads "Another day I have never used calculus."

[@jtbasener1810]

​@@DPK5201 Calculus doesn't need people to do it to be worth doing.

[@thomaspack9219]

Made it to the end - great video! Thank you for your work in researching and sharing this topic 🤓

[@quagsiremcgee1647]

Videos like this remind me why im getting a math degree

[@tbrownthelegend]

Made it all the way to the end! Thanks for doing this.

[@thenumbernine]

Mathematician here. Fun fact, you can only tie knots in 3 dimensions. Knots have been known to be related to vortices in fluids - one of the most challenging fields in mathematics. And at this moment knot-theory and quantum-gravity and their relation to quantum-computing are all very fast growing fields. Then there's those regular polytopes i.e. Platonic solids. They only exist in non-trivial forms in 3 and in 4 dimensions.

[@williamrepenning5753]

Made it to the end Gavin! I’m a long time viewer and your channel has brought me so much peace and joy, I’m very grateful for men like you who’ve now encouraged me to pursue ministry and share the gospel. I’ll send this my friend whose a math genius, he’ll love it :)

[@reillygault]

I watched the whole video! Thank you so much Gavin! I've never been so existentially comforted by math 😂😂

[@reillygault]

I would love to hear more of your approach to a similar abductive argument using music, which you mention briefly in your book "Why God Makes Sense in a World that Doesn't." As a world musician, I would love to dig into this more, with an international lens! I think that there are beautiful rhythmic structures around the world that point directly to God, some of which I even think can share the gospel! Would love to learn more about the relevant theology and philosophy to this area of ethnomusicology

[@Jamblmng3]

What you say is logical to a point that my head hurts. Thanks for your efforts doing this.

[@kategillis]

Loved this video, and all the videos in this vein, so much!! This one especially made me think of your proof from music/beauty a lot. Very well done, thank you!!

[@Ethan13371]

Just when I’ve been desiring for more “math as evidence of God” content, it arrives!

[@BoldUlysses]

Listened to the whole thing on a road trip from NC back to TN by way of VA (since I40 is closed). It made for some fascinating listening to complement the natural beauty outside!

[@truthovertea]

This is probably the best video ever made on the argument from math (eternal truths)

[@kenLakes]

I watched this podcast to the end. It was interesting even to a non math nerd. Thank you for all your hard work to produce them. Sue Lakes

[@JesusChristisGod1]

Always loved this argument

[@jacobjuly6010]

What a joy to watch. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for how much research and effort went in to creating this. Just finished viewing the entire thing with my 13 yr old son who happens to be autistic and already a brilliant mathematician in his own right. We both were enthralled the entire time. I'm also excited, thinking of a few specific loved ones in my life that are non-believers, but that I know would at least be willing to engage with something like this, so thank you. P. S. - Love the depiction of math as a precise and pristine crystalline castle. Anyone else have music from the band Crystal Castles playing in their head the entire video?

[@tjflash60]

Thanks for the content. Obviously a lot of work and thought. Lots to ponder.

[@LukeBlase]

I made it to the end. I feel smarter now. I'm not, but I feel like I am.

[@curtiskoch4731]

Great video. As a Mathematician and a Christian, I’m a realist and always thought the non realists were just digging at their feet as to not admit Theism.

[@BibelFAQ]

I just listened to the end. Awesome! I stumbled across this argument while listening to the No Dumb Questions podcast when they talked about math tricks and was really intrigued. I tried reaching out to you through instagram and a comment under the short form of your video on the conquest of Canaan. I am working on a long form video on the topic (in German) at the moment but it would also be really cool if we could collaborate and provided your short video in German. Not just the audio, but the whole animation. I would love to hear from you. Keep up the good work!

[@TruthUnites]

not able to collaborate, sorry, but good luck on your video!

[@AbebaDamesa-wc7ls]

Dr Gavin you are on great work God bless you and your ministry.

[@JohnnyHofmann]

This was an awesome video! Very insightful and enchanting considerations!

[@gardengirlmary]

I recently heard another argument for the existence of God: the aesthetic argument. Never really considered that before! The Splendor of the King! What an amazing Creator of the Universe. Praise God for all that He has made

[@kylie5741]

This is such a fascinating topic. Reminds me of how I felt in 9th grade geometry, when I finally figured out a proof. The realm of abstract math is so different from everything else, especially when I compare how it feels to study calculus vs economics and financial markets. Both heavily involve math but they’re worlds apart

[@Celtickaven]

I’ve only studied undergraduate math in my engineering degree, but for me applicability of math theory and the translation to physical reality was the epiphany moment. Seeing the interconnectedness of calculus in fluid dynamics, E&M theory, quantum mechanics, mechanics and controls and even in electronic music class. Functions such as the Laplace transformation and Fourier Transformation allow the ability to solve dynamic or electrical systems/or combination of both by relating the variables to each other based the physical relationship of work or energy. As many of the system equations are built on sin and cos functions for oscillations the interconnected Fourier transform relates those to unit circle variations to break down wave forms like in music. The amazing part it that vector analysis uses the same tools to build a working structure like in machine design which shows the absolutely mind blowing transcendence of math.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

PDE's especially demonstrate how a seemingly simple setup can have such great complexity. The thing which accounts for the complexity, which seems to govern and predict it, is mathematics.

[@Roescoe]

And this video offers some explanation for why primes are so fascinating to so many. "They are just there"

[@movingailab]

Looking forward to listening to this in detail!

[@ogmakefirefiregood]

Profesional musician here...Music theory starts with math. Take any auidable frequency and double it, you have an octave. Then using the harmonic series, you get the most pleasing divisions of that octave. That is just the first lesson in Music theory. And that's not even touching on rhythm.

[@h00sha]

Made it to the end, and took notes along the way. Great job! I love math and for a long long time regretted being too cool for school to pursue it further, despite my teachers' encouragement of my 'gift'. You're so good at explaining things, Dr. Ortlund, I wonder if you would consider my suggestion for a future video. I've coined the term "omnipathent" because it seems ridiculous to me that we Christians, especially Catholics like me, want to emphasize God's intellect and rationality. But God's jealousy is perfect, his joy is perfect, his LOVE is perfect. These are all feelings! Feelings are good and, when rightly ordered, accompany us to holiness. What does history have to say about this? Oh, and I have news for you, lol. You're already a nerd and nerding out becomes you quite well. Have a blessed Advent and Merry Christmas.

[@rockylily36]

Trig identities come to mind. Very cool when things just click together

[@iangoodman4633]

Well done brother. That must have been fun researching this

[@andrewlindgren5290]

Great work, Gavin!

[@karl5395]

Great maths video Gavin - I'm a part time maths teacher in the UK. The subject of the interconnectivity of branches and concepts within mathematics comes up a lot in proof. Quite often in the most unexpected and unrelated branch of maths. I use this to instill a sense of anticipation and excitement.

[@unexpectedTrajectory]

1) I listened to the end (and shared) 2) Thank you for this. I'm was a math major and now doing other things, but remain a math enthusiast. I often find that new mathematical understanding or insight (contemplating the mandelbrot set, Godel's incompleteness theorem, etc) leads to theological insight or can at least be appreciated from an enriching theological angle. 3) At "God sees the original 2+2=5" at 1:03:50 you definitely had me going, "Ok, how does this work with simplicity" as well as God's unique aseity etc, but toward the end you at least gestured toward an answer. I've listened to a lot from Dr. Dolezal on simplicity, and am familiar with ideas (not unique to him) such as God being "knower, knowing, and known." (I ought to say I'm coming from, I hope, a very friendly perspective.) I'm not sure if you would articulate this the same way Dolezal does, when he has said, for example, "He is the love with which He loves us," but an assertion like that didn't quite square with your analogy between knowing (or God's thoughts) and loving (and God's love), because it seems a classical view fold's God's love into Himself, but would want to distinguish e.g. mathematics as an object of His knowledge from Himself. Would you say that's accurate? Perhaps the viewership would be too small, but if you ever want to do a video on God's knowledge knowing... (or gesture towards the resource you think best? You mentioned Aquinas.) 4) As I understand it, you are at least suggesting that mathematics is grounded in God's tri-unity, as a necessary(?) consequence of the fact that God contains one, two, and three as abstractions from His essential being ("I" is one; "I and you" is two, per each of the divine relations; "we" is three). Then, you didn't mention this, but I'm thinking along the lines of Westminster/LBC 3.2 "Although God knoweth whatsoever may, or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions..." So God, in His one, infinite, eternal act of knowing, knows e.g. that the two and the three would be another quantity (which we call five, because we need to give things names), etc, etc. The quote, "God made the integers; all else is the work of man," gestures at the idea that humanity has built up from the natural (counting) numbers to all of modern mathematics. Your suggestion (which I realize doesn't begin with you) would instead say sort of, "No, God abstracted from the first three natural numbers to all of mathematics first, and we're just discovering what He knows to be true in consequence of His being." Am I getting what you were getting at? 5) Thank you again for all your work.

[@ConvincedofChristianity]

Another great video, Brother Gavin!

[@AVVS0meness]

Math is so “youthful” ;) thanks for another great video, Dr. Ortlund! I love this argument!

[@doomerquiet1909]

Finishing some college algebra class now, this is a refreshing break before getting back into it.

[@jayakare]

Really well said and researched Thanks for the video 🙏

[@jasonpoole2093]

I haven't read the comments, but this is an outstanding video. I completely agree that math is one of the most powerful arguments for God's existence. Even beyond the immutable nature of math in and of itself, the intimate connection between math and other realities is additional testimony in favor of the argument. For example, in music, the concepts of harmonics and octaves depend on precise mathematical relationships between frequencies; it is no coincidence that the beauty and splendor of music as perceived by the human ear corresponds to the alignment of math and sound. When I was in college, I took a course in formal logic. Formal logic is expressed in mathematical language and builds upon proofs that are as ironclad and immutable as any other of its cousins. The very fabric of how we think and reason is rooted in the language of logic, and we cannot escape it if we seek to live out a rational existence.

[@jeffk6673]

Great video... reminds me of some of Hugh Ross's work. Thanks Gavin!

[@JonathanD7]

I always did great in math, but when I first took calculus that is when I realized how fascinating math truly is.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

I have yet to watch this video, but I do want to say that I believe this argument has huge aesthetic importance. I studied mathematics in college and very seriously flirted with getting a PhD. I found that the purity of the subject made it impossible to explain our ability to study it. I could only account for mathematics as something that could be studied if I thought that there was some specific, mathematical intuition. That intuition could not be accounted for without mathematical objects. The objects could not be accounted for without something to ground them. The relationship between our physical world and the mathematical realm could not be accounted for without something that relates them. The consistency, the beauty, the wonder of all of it was not accidental. It is infinitely deep, provably so. Even it's strangest results are consonant with our understanding of the real. Mathematics is awesome and it points to something far greater.

[@bblakely]

Was thinking just last week how incredible and useful math is in various applications as a research engineer. Glad to see this video!

[@shaunschulte2258]

Very edifying. Thank you!

[@cg8049]

Fascinating so much I did not know, or consider before listening to this. Thank you.

[@hrvad]

I've yearned for such a video for a long time. Too bad it was so short 😅

[@SeekSanctity]

29:12 My undergrad is in Mathematics. Not being a working mathematician, I've lost a lot the nuance required for upper level maths. I do remember going into a class called Number Theory my senior year, which teaches theorems and proofs for things we take for granted (the infinitude of primes, or the Chinese Remainder Theorem for example) and applying these to modular arithmetic. Anyway, enough nerding out. It is true. Even at the undergrad level, mathematics is incredibly interconnected, and it is a beautiful and exciting feeling to use the foundations I learned in sophomore and junior classes to assist in writing proofs for my senior classes. For anyone scared of math (Dr. Ortlund may say this later, havent finished): I always tell people math is just a bunch of rules. If you learn the rules, you can play the game. As you advance in classes/topics, the game is just getting harder. Every book or class starts with new rules for the game that you didnt know before. Immerse yourself. You'll get it.

[@niccolopaganini1782]

Kinda off topic but the sweater looks great on you, Gavin! 😊

[@ryanmlc]

He is a bit of a good looking rooster isn’t he? Brains and beauty - is there anything he can’t do😂

[@ghostlyyt9167]

Hey Gavin, I watched til the end, beautiful video. Just a request, could you do a video on how to trust God in prayer and reality because I think a lot of people (including myself) struggle with the fact that many other religions have the same experience of God in prayer and reality. How do we deal with this?

[@caitlinjankiewicz9167]

mathematician here, you've articulated something i've often thought as a mathematician, that mathematics can so so precisely map the physical world, it feels like there's something MAJOR behind that.

[@HelloFromSaints]

This was fascinating! Thank you for the thorough research! This video will be a gateway for me into so many topics! Math is a truth that units!

[@samwhittaker9179]

Absolutely loved this video and love this argument. I have found a basic discussion of divine conceptualism to be shockingly helpful in evangelistic/apologetic conversations. It is deeply intuitive to most people.

[@samuraibat1916]

I am once again late to the party, but I watched all the way through! I will probably be watching through again to better digest it.

[@killingtime9283]

This was phenomenal Gavin. 😀

[@Jack-h7p1l]

Made it to the end. Many stimulating ideas

[@kjhg323]

Great video. I would add two points: 1) Another relevant property of mathematics is its universality. For example, theorems about triangles (such as the fact that any Euclidean triangle has angles that add to 180 degrees) apply to all triangles that have ever existed, will exist, or could exist. Thus, the physical world by itself cannot be the ultimate ground of these truths, because the physical world does not contain every possible triangle (and any physical triangle is imperfect anyway). 2) Saying that "Platonism" is the view that abstract objects exist independently of God is possibly accurate in the modern world, but historically Platonists have argued that abstract objects ("Forms") only have their being through participation in God (or "the Good"), who is the ultimate cause and explanation of all Forms. Plato says the following: "in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed." (Republic, book VII)

[@baobui3002]

I really enjoyed your excursive (36:59), Gavin! It’s strangely beautiful how mathematics can point you to metaphysics. I still remember discussing with a close friend whether 1+1=2 is objectively true or dependent upon us having fingers lol. After an hour, we both came to the conclusion that this must be something that is originates from the mind of God. But then it dawned on me, “If objective reality like math can come from God, doesn’t that open the possibility of other objective realities (i.e., essences)?” And all of this points to the marvelous the creativity of God. “The Lord God made them all,” to quote a children’s song.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

I haven't listened all the way through yet (plan on it for my commute home), but Danilo Diedrichs (a professor at Wheaton College) and I are working on a paper adjacent to this! It seems like one could object that, like the laws of logic, numbers and such are not "things" at all, but rather a way of describing the permutations of being. That is, to say "1+1-2" is to give a kind of logical law, like "if A = B then Ax = Bx" or something similar. Hence, math needs no further explanation, as numbers are sheer descriptions of the permutations of being. But that does then kick the can down--why is being such that we have differentiation and unity at all? Here, I think the Trinity is uniquely explanatorily powerful. All numbers and mathematical operations, it seems to me, are various contemplations on unity and multiplicity. That "1 and 1 make 2" is a reflection on duplicating a unity twice over. The triune God has in the very way his own being subsists the resources by which to derive *all* numbers, by reflecting on "oneness" and "threeness" and the related ideas that contains--multiplicity, division, addition, substraction, etcetera). Once God then derives all numbers from his own being, all math is simply contemplations on relating those numbers together. At least thus far goes the argument we're making as we flesh this out. I think this is a fascinating line of thought. What were the books you found helpful?

[@TruthUnites]

nice! The ones I benefited from were also cited. Rueben Hersch is older but fascinating.

[@seanpierce9386]

This implies that the nature of God is contingent upon mathematics, not the other way around. It’s also not unique, since someone positing a monotheistic God with two persons could make the same argument.

[@bridgerueeck459]

One of the most worshipful, useful, and, ironically, concrete resources you have made. Is there a way to gain access to your notes and or annotated bibliography on this topic for our own study and reflection moving forward?

[@aleckboyd91]

My accountant brain is getting excited for this 🤣

[@williambowman1317]

Great video Mr. Ortlund! As one who has made discoveries in both Math and Physics and as a believer, I can attest to the elation that comes with such discoveries and to the feeling of connecting to the divine. Both times I have experienced this, I felt (and believe) they came from God as if gifted to me from above. I would love to share more with you. But I dare not think I could express it better than the quotes shared in this video. Beautiful.

[@gingersaiyan5516]

This was an awesome video. I have always been fascinated with math but in a fanboy kind of way. Did you come across Vern Poythress’ work on math from a theological and philosophical standpoint. He has a doctorate from Harvard in math and teaches theology and biblical studies at Westminster theological seminary. He would be a great person to bounce ideas off of. Thank you again for all the hard work in making this great video. I also sent your video on divine hiddenness to a friend struggling with that question.

[@Randyg4636]

Algebraist here (also a Catholic convert from Southern Baptist -> Atheist -> Agnostic -> Deist), specifically group theory with a specialization in its applications to quantum computation theory. Anyway, I have always been a Platonist/realist, as were many former colleagues in grad school, but funnily (sadly?) enough (I was in my deist stage at this point), very few of them believed in God. I now believe that God is the Great Fundamental Axiom or what I’ve heard Bishop Robert Barron call the “Prius”, the reason for all “being”, from which the rest of existence is instantiated. These ideas of realism were actually what led me back to God in a general sense and eventually back to belief in His Only Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. My wife, a cradle Catholic, also helped. Anyway, excellent video! Thank you!

[@joshuareeves5103]

Yes! math is one of the greatest arguments for God and it goes so well with your video on how music proves God as well. Math and Music and Science all go hand in hand and it is so profound and beautiful. I'm an engineer and I was always surprised how many of my friends were atheists despite being face to face with this enormous witness to God's existence. Creation certainly declares and unfortunately many minds have become darkened because they suppress the truth.

[@seanpierce9386]

The full phrase is “suppress the truth in unrighteousness”, from Romans 1:18. Your comment implies that this suppression is intentional and sinful, since the truth is obvious. This kind of thinking is at odds with honest conversation. I myself am a mathematical realist. But after significant engagement with this topic, I concluded that Turing-Completeness is sufficient to explain what we see. This realization-that “God did it” is not a satisfying or useful explanation-was a small contribution to my eventual deconstruction and deconversion. I had never even considered atheism until a specific point where I suddenly connected the dots. It’s not that I didn’t want to, or was mad at God, or just wanted to sin. I actually wanted to believe and found I couldn’t. Maybe ask your friends why they’re atheists. Sometimes you have to set aside the urge to evangelize and just ask questions because you’re genuinely curious.

[@joshuareeves5103]

@@seanpierce9386 I am convinced it is intentional. I'm not saying it's so obvious what the truth is, but I am convinced that it's obvious what is not the truth. There are some things so absurd that they are never the mainstream assumption until very very recently in human history. In my estimation, the denial of the existence of God is one of these along side the denial of other clear and fundamental realities such as the existence of male&female, the definition of marriage between a man&woman, etc. As you suggest I should, I have discussed with my atheist friends on this earnestly and I do still hold this conclusion. Though I consider these friends intelligent and even good people (from a human perspective) yet I believe they intentionally overlook things for the sake of not assenting to a deity. Even agnosticism would be less absurd in my estimation than atheism. I mean this in no disrespect. I don't mean to imply that you or my friends deny God solely to give themselves pardon for their sins. I'm not really assigning a reason because I think different people have different reasons but when it boils down to it I'm convinced it is a suppression of the truth, and this is a sinful thing to do.

[@tystovall6574]

Halfway through, but needed to put in my two cents: 1) In regards to the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, I would consider contemplating the history of math. As we discovered new mathematical concepts, we would then find applications. We start with the natural numbers then we develop fractions. We think we have everything until we learn about irrational numbers (Pythagoras) and then those pop up everywhere. Then we entertain the idea of negatives as useful for solving problems only to later have banks use the concept of debt. Someone says I'm going to take square roots of negative numbers and then they become essential for quantum theory. It seems where the math goes, reality follows. 2) You should really look into Godel's Incompleteness Theorems. "Godel's Proof" by Enrst Nagel is a great place to start.

[@mattbankert2693]

Im an electrical engineer so i had to take many math classes and continue to use math in my job, never thought of it this way just kind of took the reality of math and the power of it for granted, awesome to see calculus can glorify God and not just stress me out 😅

[@ntertanedangel]

I remember being in physics class and being awed by the idea that tossing a ball in the air is calculus in motion. I couldn't (and in some ways still can't) have told you why that was so cool to me, but it really hit me the way that math and the physical world intertwine in a way that is more profound than just "one apple plus two apples equals three apples" I'm now a math tutor, and one of the most common things I hear is that math is boring, and it really makes me sad

[@Kvitka000]

Yes, math does in fact prove God ❤

[@QuixEnd]

man! ive been wanting to break into this subject for years and just hadnt been able to find enough of the right material to catch on. *the intrigue of math has been elusive for me but always there