Can't Fire Man for Washing His Truck at Work on Day Off

At least, not in this Canadian workplace.
www.lehtoslaw.com

[@johnbradley5811]

I was provided with a company truck while I was working for a construction company; I parked it on the weekends and used my personal vehicle. One Monday morning I was called to the owner's office. He asked, "was that you I passed on xxx street on Saturday driving your own truck?" When I told him yes, he said, "as long as you work for me, that company truck is your personal vehicle; and make sure you use the company card for gas." Probably the best person I ever worked for.

[@july8xx]

Few an far between.

[@pansepot1490]

Almost too good to be true.

[@justme5384]

Well I'd like to do that, my employer wouldn't mind but the our equivalent of IRS would go crazy. It's fine if you pay for your personal use. But like 40cent / kilometer (euro cent). If you have a company truck you should even drive to the depot and switch to your own vehicle when driving to lunch. Even if the lunch place is between the place you do the work and the depot

[@andrewalexander9492]

Right, your construction company is a private enterprise and is in a completely different situation than a government entity. Governmernt workers using taxpayer resources for personal benefit is a contentious issue, and rightfully so.

[@mikevondebag]

@@andrewalexander9492 agreed.

[@Cohen.the.Worrier]

Companies: It's hard to find good people. Good people: It's hard to find a decent job.

[@skittlemenow]

If only the companies offered fair wages then they wouldn't need to complain and the good people wouldn't have to keep looking for a decent job. For instance the average wage in California is 50k/year but the average price of a new home is 750k.

[@hannamariewilson]

@@skittlemenow "fair" wage seems like an opinion. Employment is at-will, meaning those people AGREED to work for that wage. The job market is still hot. Go out and get a higher paying job.

[@BruceS42]

@@hannamariewilson Exactly! If you aren't being forced to take a particular job (slavery), then it's up to you to get a job with "fair wages", and to develop skills needed to do that. It may also require moving, so if the place you live, you can't buy a house for less than 15 years gross pay, move somewhere that you can do better. Early in my career, I turned down a move to a city, where I'd be scraping by with a much higher income, and instead stayed where the cost of living was in reach of my salary. I had a nice house for about 2 years gross salary, so plenty left over for living. I later moved to a more expensive market, but with enough of a pay increase to far more than make up for it. If California really didn't pay enough, given its cost of living, then fewer and fewer people would live there, until the market corrected.

[@hannamariewilson]

@@BruceS42 yeah, there were a few peope from my high school (near st. Louis) who moved out to Cali after high school. A lot of them have returned, but like why?? My bf's friend moved from LA to Ohio and makes like $27/hr as a fork lift driver, which is good money in the midwest.

[@willhutton1516]

@@hannamariewilson yup! And that’s a relatively low skill job (regarding skilled labor like machining or welding) good pay can be found everywhere! You just gotta be willing to deal with the BS of the first few years. I’m an apprentice tool maker in my 4th year. I’ll be getting my journeyman’s card in July of ‘23 and continuing my college for an associates in 4:20 MET-Managment option. Work is paying for my associates, tuition and books, and I am learning how to use a multitude of different machines, what tolerances matter and which don’t.

[@danielweston9188]

We encouraged our workers to use the washing pad in exchange for keeping the area clean.

[@danielweston9188]

We also provide bumper sticker that said "I work for XXX" they were of course optional . . Happy employees bring sales and more talented employees . .

[@faelwolf1177]

Maybe I was just lucky, but all the machine shops I worked for, I didn't have a company truck, but if we wanted to use a mill, lathe, or other tools for a personal project on our own time, we just had to leave it as we found it when we were done. We could also order materials and tools for ourselves through the company and pay the jobber rate, they'd just take it out of our paycheck. Left over materials, such as bar ends, etc. were free. The shop next door to one of the shops I worked in had a couple guys building and maintaining a race car at night, and the owner of the shop even put a sponsorship logo on it! lol Times sure seem to have changed.

[@robert5]

I once worked for a company where the boss was the biggest instigator of this kind of thing but he was not a welder/fabricator or machinist. So he had to ask one of us to stay late or come in on Saturday to work on his projects. Needless to say any of us could do anything we wanted almost any time we wanted on our own projects at the business as on as company work was done. There was some extended periods where we had slack time, weeks. The boss ordered us to bring in any project we had or dreamed up and we would as a group come to work and work all day or multiple days to complete each others projects. That was kinda cool, and we all got paid just as if these were jobs for the company. No way were they going to risk losing any of us so they just sucked it up. We were an offshoot of a company that manufactured transmissions and axles for big rigs. Sad to say that side business for this big company only lasted 3.5 yrs. There were plenty of reasons but none of them had anything to do with us or what we did there. it was company politics and agreements between company and customers that ended. They offered to transfer me to any division any where I wanted. I said no and then was given a 10k severance, I had plans and a location picked out to move to and they had nothing there. This company respected their employees and showed it every chance they got. Best job I ever had and best people I ever worked for and with.

[@JohnRunyon]

IDK, this is still pretty true. The thing is, the risk of damage and the deterioration/wear you add to the equipment are pretty negligible. I work in IT and I absolutely take tools home when I need to do something at home. Heck, I've even taken a spool of Ethernet cable home along with tools and cut off a good 50' of it just to move my Wifi to a better spot in the house.

[@lovewenwin]

This is a nuance situation that gets out of hand. When the supervisor told him "you probably shouldn't be doing it" It was code for, No you officially shouldn't be doing this but if you do be careful. 🤣 This is why he should have just told him no and let him figure it out by himself. Because everybody doesn't understand double talk.

[@jameydenison2045]

One day when the CEO and part owner of a company I worked for came walking by the paintline, he noticed that a couple of toolboxes and a motorcycle frame were hanging on the paintline ready to pass through the paint baking oven. They were freshly coated with a beautiful red. He stopped and looked, shook his head and walked on. He never, ever said a word about it. I always loved that about him. Good management allows certain freedoms and ultimately commands respect from their devoted employees.

[@deananderson7877]

In Canada you generally need a recorded verbal warning, a written warning, and then you can be fired. This is all in a set amount of time

[@Onemanstrash1]

province to province , labour laws vary

[@krystleklearcentral]

Same in Australia

[@glasshalffull2930]

Where I worked, corporate had actually sent out in writing that “minimal” use corporate equipment/supplies was acceptable. Unfortunately, after this came out it was noted that just before Xmas all the batteries disappeared from supply. New policy, “Henceforth, supply would secure batteries starting December 1 and an employee needed to bring in dead batteries to exchange for fresh ones.” Apparently, Santa didn’t always bring gifts that included batteries. 🎅🏻

[@random832]

That's probably a good idea anyway just to discourage employees from throwing away dead batteries in the regular trash.

[@WilliamPayneNZ]

That may as well be theft. I don’t take work supplies home for personal use without asking and reimbursing the company. That’s like needing some spending money so just “borrowing” from the cash register. However I have with permission used company equipment to do personal work.

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

@@WilliamPayneNZ I'm convinced that if more companies made it readily available to purchase company supplies at cost, then there would be less theft.

[@WilliamPayneNZ]

@@KevinSmith-gh5ze there has to be a line drawn though. I have worked with people who have taken milk and toilet paper. Its not a damn supermarket. If I need something for my house and I know my work has them I find out where work got them from about buy it from that place. Some times work is nice enough to sell stuff to me but I never go in expecting it.

[@Voltaic_Fire]

It rather sounds like the employer was looking for an excuse.

[@MrTruckerf]

I think so.

[@lizard944]

As if stealing from the taxpayers wasn't good enough of an excuse?

[@Troy_Built]

@@lizard944 Sad that it isn't.

[@Cthippo1]

@@lizard944 What exactly is being stolen? A few gallons of water? At most a cup of soap? Hardly embezzlement of public funds!

[@lizard944]

@@Cthippo1 if the cost is so minimal then why doesn't he wash his car at his own house? You have to be a Democrat "public fund" worker to think like you do. Can I send 20 of my friends to YOUR house to wash their cars on a frequent basis and you provide all of the supplies plus prevailing wages while on the clock? City Council has to vote and allow this for every employee at the facility, or no one at all, and report to the taxpayers what costs they are paying. Fraud, waste, and abuse. It all adds up. Class dismissed.

[@leofredette19]

An employer I worked for in the 80's, the head of Maintenace always allowed his people to borrow the company trucks. Turns out it took 8 or 9 days to realize one truck wasn't being used but was stolen ( by one of the employees ). They just didn't have enough proof to charge the guy.

[@theodoreolson8529]

I suppose the VIN will show up somewhere.

[@jpablo700]

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[@PandorasFolly]

Heard a story from an older sysadmin. Large construction company went under and got bought out. They shutdown and sold all the IT stuff and started furlouguing staff. The it stuff included the property and stock management software. Which had the only surviving copies of all the vehicle and equipment titles. Took the surviving enployees 3 days to realize this and started driving off with trucks and construction equipment.

[@suedenim9208]

How have you stolen something if you're "allowed to borrow" it and it's only been 8 or 9 days? I'm inclined to think that legally the guy was just abusing a vague policy.

[@leofredette19]

@@suedenim9208 1 the truck was suppose to only be borrowed for a day. 2 he never brought the truck back, it was found at a Chop shop, when the shop was raided ( one of his famiy members was arrested tfor running the shop ) They coud not prove he was the last one to borrow the truck

[@papayuki3590]

i can see why they had a issue with him as it would be improper use of company stuff but to fire him for it when it was more of a reprimand thing

[@davek7706]

That copper theft is nuts. City employees make a very decent living and get tons of benefits, especially in BC. That particular area,as I understand it, has a huge drug problem.

[@chrispadilla8789]

Dude was probably on thin ice and they found a reason to fire him.

[@jol1958]

My biggest laugh when I was a kid was when the head of city equipment yard had city workers with city equipment re-landscape his yard. He didn't know that he lived catty-corner to an auditor/accountant for the city.

[@boscopit]

We had a guy years ago do a similar thing. Got employees and county equipment to pave his drive way.

[@sombojoe]

“ I’ve never heard of extrapolated that way…” That statement reminds me of the first time I ever heard the word interpellation about 15 years ago. Now one of my favorite words. :)

[@mikepalmer2219]

Lol

[@musicloverme3993]

And of course, the workers were on City time!

[@SMITT359]

Had something my location awhile back. "Civil Service" employees stealing diesal fuel from county baseyard for personal crap. Got caught, fired! I dnk if went prison!😂

[@Cannon500]

As part of management that also work with a big union staff, I have seen the HR team execute these over-reaction to minor offenses in order to "send a message" to the employees and the union. There is a large mistrust in management and in the union in a lot of places. This is because the union often protect incompetent staff and limit the ability of management to take remedial action against an bad union employee. For example, we have an employee that constantly take "sick" days on Friday every week. We all know he's not sick, but management can't dismiss him because he is protected by the union. Our HR team dismissed him anyways, knowing they will probably lose the fight against the union because the courts in BC are very pro-union at the moment. They do it anyways send a message to the employee and union that management will make your life hell if you keep doing this.

[@yunofun]

A mill I worked at years ago when they first put in security cameras the union negotiated into their contract that you had to be witnessed in person for any kind of reprimand so anything caught on camera wouldn't matter (unless illegal) Damn near caused a strike a few years later when the company refused to sign a contract that still had that provision. There were two issues. First being if someone forgot their card or had their hands full they would just try to climb over the turnstile, there were a few injuries because of this. The second was a guy they caught stealing scrap. Company had him arrested, charged, but couldn't fire him because of the union. The video was enough to have him convicted (misdemeanor) but because the camera caught it and not a in person witness they couldn't fire him.

[@nolongeramused8135]

Where my dad worked they had a paint shop (repair shop for construction equipment) which the employees routinely used to paint personal vehicles. All they had to do was buy their own paint.

[@andrewalexander9492]

Right, private company. Completely different situation than a governmental entity.

[@wpgspecb]

@@andrewalexander9492 Or a public company for that matter.

[@RobertSzasz]

Cheaper than buying random stuff for people to learn and keep in practice on

[@nolongeramused8135]

@@RobertSzasz On the other hand, there were a number of VW Bugs and Chevy Novas driving around town in Caterpillar Yellow.....

[@67amiga]

I knew a guy that got fired days before being transferred to another state with a much better paying job. He was using the gas card to fuel his own vehicle. They caught him because we only use the gas card for a small golf cart type truck that only has a seven gallon tank. They noticed that every time he filled up the vehicle, he was getting around 40 gallons.

[@Stonerolog1st]

So do several transactions? Got it

[@writerconsidered]

Greedy. I used to fill up gas cans for work with my own car. I was given twenty cash to fill two cans. I somewhat resented using my own car. So one can got 9.50 in gas and the other got 9.50 in gas. My car got $1.00 in gas. Never be greedy and only skim at the same level. Never increase the skim.

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

@@writerconsidered I've done that, too. Same exact reason, the $2 in gas was to recoup using my own personal car. You're right, the trick is to not get greedy. Most people get away with it over time and push it more and more until they get busted. Keep it small, don't let it creep up, and count on it adding up over time. 5% is huge--over a good period of time.

[@darkfur18]

Gas cards at work want the mileage for the company truck before they will dispense

[@andrewmcnicoll4268]

​@@Stonerolog1stThe way our City audits gas transactions is requiring an odometer reading when you enter your pin. If you make multiple transactions in a day or if you're filling up more gas than would have been expensed based on your mileage, the transaction gets flag and generates an Exception Report.

[@NipkowDisk]

Reminds me of an incident many years ago when I worked in an institution. The chief union shop steward was caught filling his personal vehicle with State gasoline, but was NOT terminated! However, his tenure as a chief shop steward came to a rather abrupt end.

[@TWX1138]

My father-in-law worked for a municipal sewer system. At one point all of the employees were brought in for a meeting. Upper management, police, and lawyers were there. The cops and lawyers laid-out what they knew about the various scams and hustles that the employees were running at the agency's expense. At the end they were put on-notice, no one was prosecuted in this round because they would have had almost no employees left to work the sewers, but from this point forward they were going to be scrutinized and further acts would result in immediate charges.

[@george2113]

@@TWX1138 finding workers for a sewer system is harder than people think

[@jroysdon]

Big problem with government fuel stations. We have to use a key for tied to the pool vehicle we're driving and enter in the vehicle mileage. Computer keeps track of the mileage and gas usage. Won't allow one to fuel up if they don't match up. Only problem is when I've taken a vehicle out of town for an overnight training event and filed up at a public gas station. When I got back to top off the vehicle before turning it back it, it rejected the mileage. Not a problem, the motor pool folks just review my mileage numbers and reason for the vehicle use (training in city XYZ) and reset the mileage lock in the fuel pump computers.

[@andrewholdaway813]

Yep only management are allowed to do that

[@JohnRunyon]

@@jroysdon YOU might have to do that, but I doubt even everyone in your state has to do that much less the whole country ...

[@blackbuttecruizr]

Never worked for a public entity. However, borrowing company equipment or using facilities on off hours is a common perk of a lot of companies. With permission of course...

[@wpgspecb]

You forget that that's my taxpayer money that he's wasting.

[@timdowney6721]

Probably not for government agencies. In a private company, the cost is borne by the owner/shareholders. Those people can disinvest if they choose. It’s different with taxpayers living in the jurisdiction, a good chunk of whom didn’t vote for the politicians in charge.

[@andrewalexander9492]

Completely differen situation at a private company than a governmental entity.

[@daleford8411]

@Tim Downey Absolutely! With private entities there are different flavours too. A public company has more obligation than a sole trader for example. If you wholly own an entity you can't really rip yourself off.

[@michaelhanson5773]

There is a difference between using a private company's facilities for personal use vs using a public (govt, local, federal or otherwise) for personal use. Funds for govt come from taxpayers and generally there are rules about that. We are not even supposed to use our copier/printer for personal use, no matter if on break or not. Sure people do it, but it is in our rules and union contract that it is a disciplinary offense that can result in suspensions without pay and/or termination.

[@rickwise9910]

The employee handbook where I work (private company) is littered with a statement something like, "...can result in disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal." So they can say in court (and probably have said), "We warned all employees."

[@albinoman13bt]

I manage a grocery store and every time I give someone a "Counseling Notice" it says right on the paper "Immediate improvement is required. Further violation will result in disciplinary action up to and including termination." For some reason corporate HR requires me to also hand write the same line right above it.

[@GamesFromSpace]

Canada's employee protections are just stronger by default. From what i recall, you can't fire somebody for a first offense, unless it's something extreme such as theft. Everything else requires a couple warnings. No union required.

[@deloreanman14]

When I worked for car dealers, all of them would let you use the wash bay / car wash on your day off, provided you vacated it ASAP if they needed to wash a new car for delivery. Was a nice perk of the job.

[@doubledrats235]

If they didn’t want employees washing their personal vehicles at the municipal yard they should have sent out a memo and posted signs at the yard where you wash trucks. They could have said on the sign and in the memo that violators might be fired.

[@AeroGuy07]

When I was in my early 20s me and a friend rented a mobile home down in Owen County, KY. One evening we were having a beer with the landlord and he was complaining about a quote he got to trim and remove some trees. My buddy was a crew leader for Asplundh tree trimming and told the landlord that he'd do the tree work in exchange for 2 months free rent. The landlord jumped on that deal. So one Saturday morning my friend put on his work clothes, went and picked up his truck and in about 3 hours he and I took care of the landlords trees. No one at Asplundh found out.

[@nocalsteve]

It's completely reasonable for companies and agencies to prohibit employees from using company resources for personal purposes. It's something that can get out of hand fairly quickly once it starts to become an expected perk of the job.

[@Cheepchipsable]

Yes, but is it a fireable offence? This is the issue.

[@P_RO_]

@@Cheepchipsable Intentionally breaking any known legal company rule is grounds for dismissal in most places. They can be nice and do less but they don't have to.

[@finkelmana]

Its the same in the US. I know of someone who was a federal employee and was fired for sending a personal letter (snail mail) using a government envelope that doesnt require postage.

[@SergeantExtreme]

He's lucky he only got fired. That's actually a crime punishable by up to $1,000.

[@mr.robinson1982]

I was fired on my day off, after they called me in for "A meeting" they then wanted me to sign my paperwork to deny my benefits. After I refused, they said that I had to wait for someone to follow me home so they could collect their work truck. I told the owner to go "Duck himself" that now since I am no longer an employee, I don't have to follow his orders & left the company building. Got back on my motorcycle & left... Took them 4 days to collect the truck.

[@boscopit]

Good. Screw them.

[@callak_9974]

They had your address, could have easily have gotten it. Just too lazy to send two people over, one to drive the other work vehicle so they could get it?

[@johnpatrick1588]

In my old home Broward County, Florida it was frustrating watching many county workers not working while on the clock and driving county vehicles. Had crews sleeping under shade trees for 6 hours instead of filling potholes most days and even supervisors knew about it. Then another would zip around to his hanger at Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport in his county car and hide out for hours on the clock.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

I had a municipal waste water treatment manager over me who got laid off for that kind of bs.

[@netsurferWorkman]

had an expose in Pittsburgh decades ago where they followed city work crews and documented what they did. Had a work crew manager that bought alcohol, stored it in the vehicle, then went to another house (not his primary residence) and stayed inside for several hours. I hope lots of terminations happened due to that being televised.

[@randalthor741]

If you have trouble saying Port Coquitlam (which you actually *did* pronounce correctly), you can always just say PoCo, which is what most people from the Lower Mainland informally call it. It's quicker and easier to say PoCo, and it also makes it easier to distinguish Port Coquitlam from Coquitlam, which is a different nearby town.

[@davidbudd4102]

Don't tell him about Tsawwassen

[@oldfriend2317]

Or Ucluelet

[@timpani25]

and forget about tlacotalpan.

[@Undecided0]

So it pronounced "Quit" & not "Keet"?

[@randalthor741]

@@Undecided0 yup, it is!

[@daleford8411]

My.attitude to this kind of thing has changed over the years. I have worked for many years in the public sector in Australia where firing people l is very difficult for the employer. Sounds great if you work for them but it actually makes work an unpleasant place. Management tend to bully as the only way to maintain control. I did work for 5 years for an American owned company and the difference in work culture was stark, but in many ways better even though subject to our labour laws. I learnt The best job security is to worth what you get paid. The other issue is public sector employees need to very careful about not taking personal benefit from taxpayers money, and this was clearly a breach of that important principle. Getting fired maybe a stretch depending on the circumstances, if it's long been excepted practice for example, but addressing it and making it very clear it is not acceptable is a good idea in my view.

[@Serai3]

"I learnt The best job security is to worth what you get paid." Until the day they realize they can fire you and hire someone at half the pay rate. Being "worth your pay" is no security at all in America.

[@daleford8411]

@Serai3 The world isn't fair and sadly that won't change. At my stage in life I get it's how you carry yourself that really matters. Sometimes things outside your control will knock you down, but it's your choice to get up and move on or wallow in the mud.

[@phillipcooley83]

Where I work isn't very high paying, but as a result, I've from time to time let my employer directly know that they're just as replaceable to me, as I am to them. It's a very balanced way to live, and I don't live in fear from loosing my job.

[@Serai3]

@@daleford8411 Yes, and being the best is no security at all. NO ONE is worth anything in the work world if they can get the job done more cheaply by someone else. Your experience, your know-how, your dignity - worthless. If more people realized that, we could maybe get the unions back and have someone looking out for the workers.

[@Frentraken]

As someone that lived a few hours away you say it better than I do.

[@prjtvbox9795]

Dear Steve, As a resident of the larger city of Coquitlam, I visit Port Coquitlam from time to time. Pronouncing it is easier than it looks. Ko Quit Lam :) We just call it PoCo. Incorporated as a city in 1913, Approximately 60,000 people live there today. 27K (16.8 miles) east of Vancouver. It is named from a Halkomelem (please don't ask me to pronounce that one) word for small red salmon because of the three bordering rivers where the fish are abundant most notably in the Coquitlam River, for which both cities are named. It is an important part of the CPR (Canadian Pacific Railway), being the martialing yards leading to the terminus in Vancouver prior to WW1. Prior to that time, the terminus was in Port Moody, just to the east of Coquitlam. The industrial area built out around the PoCo CPR station, became a metal and gravel production center before and during WW2, at which time most of the residents worked in or around the rail yard to assist in the war efforts. After the war, the city became more focused on manufacturing, rubber and iron casting industries, tungsten refining, boat building and the nearby gravel operations. We appreciate all the videos you have made and look forward to the upcoming ones. Your vast knowledge of various topics is astounding, love your set and explanation of all the objects on it. We also really enjoy your insight, in particular, your detailed historical descriptions. Thank you for all of your hard work. Never Stop Laughing. LOL My partner and I would be more than happy to take you on a thorough historic sightseeing tour of the lower mainland, should you happen to find yourself in the Vancouver area. Fans from up north, Take Care, Peter and Jenn

[@sittingindetroit9204]

Decades ago there was a big union fight for employees who were dumpster diving at a facility that I worked at. They were fired for taking stuff out of the dumpster that was going to be landfilled. We sold directly to the OEMs for new vehicles. They were taking parts deemed scrap, bring them home and "refurbishing" them and then selling them to body shops.

[@davidh9638]

If someone can make something useful that was headed for landfill, that is a benefit to society.

[@boscopit]

My job scraps perfectly good IT equipment. Could be resold for a profit to our department, but they actually pay a company to haul it off. Government at it's finest.

[@dragonwalker4644]

@@boscopit Could that not go to a non-profit for use by schools or even to villages overseas that struggle getting decent IT stuff ?

[@alanaldpal950]

@@davidh9638 Or perhaps there is an incentive to throw away perfectly good stuff so they can go dumpster diving for $

[@autobotjazz1972]

This actually more of a insurance and liability issue, it is safer in legal terms to just trash the defective parts that to risk a potential lawsuits, same reason retail stores ruin any defective product tossed out into their dumpsters. While it is obvious a lot of stuff could be donated to charity the legal department says no.

[@kenbrown2808]

using public facilities for personal use is a scenario that can blow up rapidly. my parents are associated with a community nonprofit, and had a task that would have benefited from a bucket truck. it happened that the local volunteer fire department owned a bucket truck. my dad asked if it was possible the nonprofit could borrow it, and the official response was "if we loan it to one nonprofit, we have to loan it to EVERY nonprofit." I expect there is a similar issue with the municipal wash facility. first, allowing people to use it for personal use is an inappropriate use of tax dollars, unless it is a negotiated perk of employment. second, if they allow one employee to use it, they have to allow all the employees to use it and the water bill goes through the roof.

[@Smart-Towel-RG-400]

Not just employees if they let city workers use it for personal reasons a regular citizen comes and asks to use it they'd have to or they could sue could end up costing the tax payers hundreds of thousands

[@MichaelHagberg]

I agree a first time offense of washing your truck on day off should at most get a reprimand. How far is too far? Let's say a mayor orders the township road crew to deliver and spread a load of gravel on his private driveway. It's rumored that we have sanitation workers, who if they finish their route early, will wash their personal cars while still on the clock. Remember there is a difference between government municipalities and private companies. Taking a paperclip home for personal use could be considered theft of government goods.

[@tryagain8003]

It wasn't just the misuse of city property, but what if that person got injured while washing his vehicle. Insurance companies would probably deny any claims to the injured person and damage to any city equipment. Violating any employer policy can get a person terminated.

[@jesstreloar7706]

I was working at a window company in Washington state back in 2003. Drove a GEM electric vehicle to work. After a few month the batteries needed to be charged at work to get home. Found that out when it died on the way home. Asked my boss, with the site manager standing next to him and they said 'sure'. About 6 months later the owners son came by for a visit and asked "Who was stealing 'my' electricity?" Ahead of the times I guess. I didn't get fired but was sweating it until I saw my boss.

[@pizzaivlife]

I bet he charged employees to charge their phones

[@GeorgeWMays]

The punishment lacks proportionality. Wouldn't this be a case where a nasty note in his personnel file would be more appropriate? I rather suspect that there were other reasons to can this guy and this was just a convenient excuse. My two cents....

[@culcune]

That is what I was thinking. It sounds like he was taking advantage of taxpayers by washing his truck, but didn't sound like a firing offense, either.

[@richardburke6902]

Great story Steve. I wanted to comment briefly because I worked for a municipality for many years in a union job. The protection we had from being fired at will was called “due process”. This afforded us the right to a hearing in which the employer needed to show evidence that we were unfit for the job. I wonder if the “at will” states have even heard of ‘due process’.

[@equallawandorder5393]

Nope, they just call it “restructuring “ and let all the experienced employees go if they are 59 years or older. Then they hire ignorant college grads at 1/2 the cost. Then 2-3 years later most go out of business or close factory locations. From experience

[@kingfunk9336]

We had a state of the art copy machine. Hi tech..color etc. In the office. Employee decided to run her wedding invitations on it. Give them an inch and they take a mile. She was given some extra time off for her wedding present.

[@dltwyman]

being nice to employees being able to sign out and/or use certain equipment is a great perk. if places were smart they could use constructively.

[@BlackJesus8463]

Forealz.

[@wpgspecb]

@@BlackJesus8463 This isnt a place, this is a taxpayer funded org.

[@BlackJesus8463]

@@wpgspecb How much money do you think it costs to train The New Guy?

[@wpgspecb]

@@BlackJesus8463 Whats your point? This isnt a private company that can give "perks" to their employees.

[@BlackJesus8463]

@@wpgspecb ✌

[@arenjay3278]

You said it correctly

[@MrTruckerf]

A fireman here uses a pumper truck to fill his swimming pool every year. It is OK with the chief, because he IS the chief!

[@july8xx]

Our fire department will do that for any resident if they sign a release saying we can also pump from the pool in case of an emergency.

[@Lou58Lou]

My husband used to work for a towing company, no union. We were allowed to use the facilities to change oil in our personal vehicles, just paid for materials. I changed it while my husband was on a tow. I also helped out answering the police line, went on tows and handled the paperwork in the truck with my husband, daughter went in the truck a few times also. My husband had the best boss, he passed away last year he will be missed. My husband was on call and slept at work on the weekends, so I cooked dinner and we ate as a family and shared with the other co-worker on call.

[@jasoncreamer5747]

We had a guy living in a camper van on the work parking lot and he never got fired.

[@Brian_in_Indiana]

Isn't that the dream of many employers? An employee that never leaves and can be called on at a moments notice.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

There is a McDonalds restaurant near me that has had a pickup and camp trailer at the back of their lot for several weeks. I'm thinking it is an employee who has nowhere to go, and a sympathetic manager.

[@P_RO_]

@@TheRealScooterGuy If it's on the restaurant property don't let McDonalds corporate find that out.

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

@@P_RO_ Its definitely on the restaurant property. That said, all McDonald's restaurants here are franchise units, so "corporate" may not have much say in the matter.

[@P_RO_]

@@TheRealScooterGuy They're actually tougher on the franchisees. They can get away with that because nobody is willing to risk their franchise over anything. I applaud them for helping someone who seems to need help and I'd never report such a thing myself. Happy New Year!

[@nodak81]

I used to work as a guard at a distillery where everybody used company vehicles whenever and however they wanted. I worked third shift and was there all alone all night. I taught myself to drive a manual transmission on a F-600, and how to operate a forklift.

[@gutz-Coldrevenge]

previous company i worked for had a pretty simple solution, they simply said we could use workplace equipment, so long as we compensated for it, wanted to use a work truck, reimburse roadusers charges and fuel, wanted to wash your personal car in the wash bay, no worries cost you a couple of bucks. honestly it was brilliant, used work truck to move houses, cost me less then $50 (NZD so around $30USD)

[@samgentile7494]

As a former AFL-CIO shop steward long ago back in the early 1970's I immediately would have told the upper-level employee who was taking the action that "such actions are supposed to be 'corrective' in nature and not punitive, and I would have said a 3 day suspension was enough of a penalty". In general employee disciplinary actions are supposed to be 'corrective in nature and just and reasonable'. I see the Canadian Supreme Court agreed the penalty was excessive.

[@kleverich]

I think this was something personal, and washing his truck was the excuse needed to fire him.

[@TheGuruStud]

Govt employees abuse public funds 24/7. EVERYONE is washing their vehicles there. He was targeted.

[@Cheepchipsable]

Some guys take too many liberties with company stuff. Like guys who use company mail and paper to print their own stuff.

[@KumiChan2004]

My step dad has been a truck driver for years. Every time we have moved or helped someone moved he was always able to get a box truck from the company he works for. All he had to do was pick it up and fill the gas tank up. Basically, asking before taking one. A benefit of being an employee for them.

[@DudeSoWin]

"If they are looking to bite then good on him for giving them the chance rather than letting them wittle away at his career."

[@spanishl1003]

I'm a lease purchase truck driver and I got FIRED for refusing to drive a unsafe 80k lb vehicle back to Bensenville, IL. It was bad enough I was driving from California to Arizona that way. The truck was moving all over the place like I was DRUNK. I'm very SURPRISED that DOT didn't pulled me over. That's how bad it was. The front end was SHOT. Not including everything else I was complaining about the truck. I told them plenty of times that I'm not going to put my LIFE IN DANGER OR ANYBODY ELSE. This truck is not SAFE TO DRIVE THAT FAR. I kept doing short loads. Driving at night for the most part. Only 5 or 6 hrs per day. The truck was bad on dry roads. I would come home in A BOX. IF I DROVE ON BLACK ICE AND OR SNOW. So, I told them 100's time. The only way this truck will get to ILLINOIS is by getting TOWED there. So, instead of fixing the truck out here. They let me go for being SAFE AND PUTTING MY LIFE BEFORE THE JOB. No job is that IMPORTANT . And they CLAIM SAFETY 1ST.

[@boscopit]

Maintenance people at my job are always stealing gas from the county pumps. I remember those damn credit card machines. I had to use them at my first job. Hated those things.

[@SAMann729]

I used to work airport operations and we had a wash bay for our work vehicles and equipment. Airport director, airport manager, and my supervisor never had a problem with any of us using it for our own personal vehicles, so long as it was off duty

[@Cheepchipsable]

Most bosses are OK provided it's your time and the equipment isn't otherwise needed. If you started lining up friends and relative for a clean, that's a different issue. Also I think coming in on your day off is a bit different too.

[@NOLL72]

Even though I was a very good employee, I was fired for an "iffy" reason. I filed a claim for Unemployment Benefits and the company challenged my claim, but lost and I took a long vacation on their dime. I later found out that the company had to hire two people to do the same work that I had been doing. Karma does exist. [Wink.] LOL! JMO.

[@corssecurity]

Nailed it Steve. It's in British Columbia btw

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

Ben turning his nose up at little Red Tesla, Steve's LHS

[@Zaphod964]

Steve, you are bang on with your pronunciation of Coquitlam. Well done.

[@Thatnightdriver]

Washing the company vehicle on his own time? give that man a bonus 😂

[@tinydancer7426]

I thought the issue was washing his personal vehicle on the employer's property (government) using facilities and products belonging to the employer. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[@Thatnightdriver]

@@tinydancer7426 ahh I think your right

[@markmyers4573]

That's why companies should document those warnings. Informal conversations don't hold up very well.

[@justsayen2024]

This is exactly what management does in a union setting is to go after everybody and anybody that's breaking even the slightest rule to make it seem like they're being even handed. so the defendants in the first case won't claim that it's favoritism.

[@bigdogpete43]

Best advice an old boss of mine ever gave me--"Don't sweat the small stuff".

[@lgrantnelson2863]

Reminds me of a supervisor who cleaned his auto parts in the dunk tank for cleaning oil machined product. Everyone was told it was for machined product only. Eventually the supervisor no longer worked at that company.

[@jasonasselin]

That would appear to be theft, if not given permission. No matter what the cost was..

[@SeanBZA]

You need to get the updated machine, which has the slides you use that also embosses the value directly on the bottom of the self carboning triplicate, so the bank can use the same OCR machinery that they use for cheques to read both the card info, merchant info and the amount off in a single pass, without needing to have any person do data entry. Does it have the brass embossed shop details still, or the later cheap embossed plastic tag as they were phased out, and relegated to backup for a regular card reader attached to a phone line. Got 2 of those, which were replaced by the bank as they upgraded systems to enable EMV transactions, and those in turn were superceded and replaced with ones that can do contactless as well. But all still have the old fallback of magstripe read, and when that fails you also can use manual card number entry, though you also need a supervisor PIN entry per transaction to do so. Even pizza places now have gone away from that, you either order via app, or pay cash on delivery, or the drivers come there with either a portable terminal, or use a regular mobile phone to do the contactless pay. No merchant (aside from the Post office, still stuck using XP, and the same computers they bought in 2000) does magstripe only.

[@P_RO_]

One chain of convenience stores here uses only magstripe from a driver's license or State-issued ID to confirm age for tobacco and alcohol sales. If your mag doesn't work it's no sale. This is getting more common as a way to prove the retailer made every reasonable effort to end under-age sales since they are now being prosecuted for that.

[@JoeSmith-cy9wj]

It seems we recently had an employee who used company resources and clout to pave his wallet. He also set a terrible example for others. He flouted rules and actually broke laws, yet he wasn't fired. So far, no accountability has befallen him.

[@benkrom2737]

What if off duty he stopped by and went to bathroom then washed his hands 🤔

[@tinydancer7426]

Best policy is, if/when you are off work, you are not permitted to be on the premises for any reason. I worked for local government and that was a condition of employment ..... when you are off work (aka, after assigned work hours, on sick leave, personal leave, vacation, etc) you are not permitted in the workplace. That did not prevent you from coming to a county office for personal business (pay taxes, file for permits, etc). If for no other reason, it was a rule for liability should you be injured.

[@july8xx]

Off the clock, off the floor is a rule in the U. S. Post Office my friiend told me.

[@esteban1973]

You get hurt on the premises when not on the clock is a liability issue in some places. Especially where there is heavy equipment or vehicles.

[@Smart-Towel-RG-400]

I mean is there a public washroom? If so then that's fine also it's the bathroom there isn't rules against using the bathroom

[@benkrom2737]

@@esteban1973 Funny you should mention that, when I leave work I turn my phone off because I don't want to get called in or fix anything over the phone. I'm always needed for something, especially when I double back if I've forgotten something at work. I'm now retired and if I stop by it's like I left yesterday and still asked questions. Small businesses survive on customers and abilities to maintain their books and overhead. Places like the post office somehow are able to stay in business owing billions of dollars 🤷‍♂️ and don't give me any bullshit about how important they're cause we have the Interweb and fedx and ups, etc ! Nothing more satisfying than working for a small business and seeing your accomplishments working. Big businesses, there's too much stacked against your improvements to the company 😒

[@athletixbc]

I live in the area, and you are saying it correctly. It's based on a local native tribe called the Kwik-kwet-lem. The cities of Coquitlam and Port Coquitlam anre located within this tribe's historical territory.

[@LaurenGlenn]

Those imprint machines come in handy now that most of my new credit cards don't have embossed lettering and numbering anymore. :)

[@P_RO_]

I have a friend who still uses the embosser only and charges CC users the 1.5% fee that his bank charges him for any CC transaction. He also takes no checks. And he tells customers who complain that they can go to their bank or an ATM and get cash, which is not his job to do for them. His shop, his rules, and there are prominent signs noting this in the customer area.

[@derek20la]

I'm not from the area but I have friends in BC, and I've heard them talk about Coquitlam, and you pronounced it correctly.

[@AFloridaSon]

In Florida, they can fire you for showing up for work. 😂😂

[@lordrayden3045]

Beciase it’s Florida

[@choccolocco]

Same here in Alabama….the irony of calling it a “right to work” state… more like “right to fire you for any reason”…

[@lordrayden3045]

@@choccolocco Yeah….. that’s the propaganda republicans use to get stupid people to vote against their own self interest.

[@july8xx]

It was sold that way to get people to vote for it to get rid of unions. After it passed buyer regret set in later when people found out just what they bought into.

[@lordrayden3045]

@@july8xx I know…. Like I said, it’s the framing republicans use to get stupid people to vote against their own self interest I’m just pissed that states I live in, keep sending money to these sh1tholes to subsidizes their existence. You want to vote for this stupidity, great, live with the results

[@Amphy2k]

It always bothers me whenever someone says there are prohibited reasons for being fired. There is but they are not set in stone. A job can fire you because your black or muslim or trans with no repercussions at all. All they have to do is note the reason as something that isn’t the actual reason such as “poor performance” or “poor attendance”. Even if that secondary reason is a lie it’s impossible to prove in court due to he said she said laws and also court bribery.

[@Somewhere-In-AZ]

And yet, employers have no problem thinking it’s okay to have employees drive their own cars to run errands for them. Or go take care of the employer’s kids or aged parents on their own time. Or make them feel obligated to work extra hours or holidays for no extra pay. Or give up their health care benefits because the government just made them unaffordable, or they cut your hours so they don’t have to provide that. Becoming self employed was the best thing I ever did.

[@mikepalmer2219]

Well said.

[@AlphanumericCharacters]

I am a mechanic. I store and use $50k worth of tools daily at my job. (Many people are shocked by that. Just a reference. My toolbox was $10k on its own). I am required to supply these tools. One Saturday I had to do some work on my Dad’s truck. The shop I was at was open but it was my day off. I took my Dad’s truck in. Got a work order written to cover the liability aspect. Then fixed his truck using their shop and my tools. On monday the manager heard about this and called me in. He had a bill for $300 for me. He was charging me for the labor I performed. He said I used the company facilities for personal use. I said “ok”. Took the bill to the cashier and was about to pay it. He took it from her and said he was trying to make a point. I said “ok”. Went home and returned to work with my trailer and loaded up my $50k in tools. He tried to backpedal so hard his shoes caught fire. I told him “I’m not trying to make a point. I quit.” Most mechanics do side work. It is taboo to bring that in. Of course. But nowhere else I have ever worked cared about personal vehicles or family and close friends. The problem is people who take shit like that off the company. I set my boundaries and stick to them. Shitty companies don’t value their help and I don’t value shitty companies.

[@mikepalmer2219]

@@AlphanumericCharacters good on you man. Screw those kind of asshats.

[@Somewhere-In-AZ]

@@AlphanumericCharacters Great story. Many employees have to pay for the tools they use for their jobs. If I bought it, I’m taking it with me when I go. Especially if they wouldn’t purchase it in the first place saying the company doesn’t provide it. For me it was computer software programs and subscriptions. I removed them from the company system and kept the passwords that accessed subscriptions. I left on good terms and now they hire me at my going rate to do certain work. It’s a lot more than what they were paying me as an employee. The economy at the time supported this move for me and the clients I’ve gained, because it is less expensive for them to pay for outside contract work than to hire a full time employee. Even though the work costs much more, they don’t pay employer taxes or benefits. I control how much work I want and how much I earn. If you have the skills and reputation your future has no limits. All my clients came from word of mouth or were parties on the other side of something I worked on. They realize that you have unique skills and will hire you on their projects. I’m careful to choose who I’ll work for. If they were skeezy in a deal, I know they are not honorable so I’ll turn those down. Or if a first time client won’t pay or takes months to pay, I don’t have time for them. There was this one woman who demanded that I do a small job for her, even having an associate call to twist my arm a bit. I called her back and told her my price was $10K up front. She never called me again. 🤷‍♀️😆

[@AlphanumericCharacters]

@@Somewhere-In-AZ I’m jealous. As a mechanic you can work from home but it is against the law. You can open a small shop but the overhead is insane. Regulations make it very difficult to operate on a small scale. Which is the exact intention the regulations were enacted for. It is supposedly for “consumer protection” but it truly is for crony protection. The big shops don’t want to compete with individual skilled mechanics working off of their reputation. So we are legislated out of the game. Some do it but they must work 60-80 hours a week to make what they already make at a larger shop. The consumer protection aspect is a joke considering big name shops rip off customers daily. The customer’s only recourse is a civil suit. Nothing would stop them from suing me. I would love to operate in my business like you do in yours. It’s just not feasible. But I do currently have the best situation ever.

[@MonacoMike]

Property theft comes in all degrees and sizes. I worked many years for a govt contractor on a govt facility. People were all the time using copy machines, taking office supplies home, making long distant personal phone calls etc etc and that was considered normal but that said I know of other instances where someone got fired for taking a roll of tape. Now days using a company/govt computer for personal use can get you fired. Falsifying a time card is the easiest tool they can use against you.

[@arizwebfoot]

"But that's Canadian" he says as every maple leaf in Canada wilts.

[@aussiebloke609]

"Condonation" - what a great new usage. I'll have to fit that into my everyday speech. 🙂

[@frozencanary4522]

The old school credit card machine brings back memories. Worked at a Sunoco station with the dial-a-blend pumps.

[@nelsblair2667]

I know a gal born in Coquitlam and she says as you did. But when I stayed there in a hotel with a different gal, the (non-native) clerk called it cokilum (cokalem). I’m confident that the people of BC would accept whichever pronunciation you like.

[@salty6pence672]

NEVER GOTO WORK ON A DAY OFF, I have been fired 3 times for this. Now I wont even pick up a check on a day off.

[@alidaweber1023]

I'm a grocery cashier and I frequently go to the store where I work to buy groceries on my day off. So it depends on what sort of business or industry you are employed in.

[@HH-ru4bj]

I feel there's a story behind this.

[@Voltaic_Fire]

Why did you tempt fate a *third* time?

[@Itsa_Mea]

​@@HH-ru4bj I think there are 3 stories behind it.

[@feetincheseighths]

Why would anyone go to work on their day off? your check will not be any less money the next day or next week or month.

[@c-v-n3322]

I knew a city worker that was suspended without pay for a month by the city for plowing his own drive way before doing the city streets he had been doing this for years and it finally caught up to him.

[@kensherwin4544]

I know a county snowplow truck driver who takes a plow truck home at night when snow is expected. He has to plow out his own driveway to get out when he get the "let's git after it" call. This is not only not frowned on, it's considered a best practice by that management.

[@ShakepearesDaughter]

I agree with the comment below... if you have to be ready for work after a snow dump, don't you have to plow yourself out? Mighta been other issues involved that got that guy fired... like openly boasting about it or some other aggregious expression of workplace contempt... or even just a hard-ass boss or jerk coworker tattling.

[@kenyattaclay7666]

I'm on the fence with this one. Without knowing what his evals are I would assume that because he won in court he didn't have any other negatives so firing him would seem to go too far. I will say though that if he had anything else on his evals this could've been the final straw. I know when I was in the Army there was someone that misused a civilian vehicle and they got an Article 15. I think he only got something like 10 days of extra duty because otherwise he never did anything wrong.

[@tinydancer7426]

He received a monetary compensation, but did he get his job back? I don't remember hearing that he did.

[@darrinrebagliati5365]

British Columbian here, you nailed the pronunciation of Port Coquitlam. Commonly called PoCo.

[@sidrat2009]

The employer didn't like that person and wanted to find any reason. They picked the wrong reason. That could be trespassing and some kind of theft without prior permission.

[@HH-ru4bj]

That's usually considered a perk of the job, and no one typically minds when it's small stuff like this. But this being Canada I can't really say a whole lot.

[@TheSiriusEnigma]

There is a union. This changes the way you must enforce rules.

[@TheSiriusEnigma]

@@HH-ru4bj no. There is a union. Everything is in the union agreement. If it’s not, you don’t have it. Period. The problem here is that a process must be followed in case of an employee breaking the rules and that process wasn’t done properly.

[@writerconsidered]

Anywhere I worked these things were considered unwritten benefits. I used to wash my car and change my oil at work. The day of work but after hours. My boss didn't care as long as I didn't leave a mess behind.

[@shaunsmith8494]

Funniest firing I’ve seen was when a fellow Tradie wore a pink beanie at work and got let go for refusing to remove it. I believe he enjoyed the 8 weeks pay he ended up with. If you’re reading this G’Day Jacko 😂

[@GasCityGuy]

One could argue that unauthorized using of city resources is a form of theft.

[@thatjeff7550]

Things like that I would consider a "perk" of the job. If he was just using their sprayer as a means to wash a truck and trailer, that's nothing compared to what the employee does beyond his job description.

[@Breca]

They forget about that.

[@Born_Stellar]

I was doing an oil change in the work parking lot and someone ran to tell the boss on me, then my boss asked one of my guys if we were on break. since we were he didn't care what I was doing when i wasn't supposed to be working.

[@kencar8961]

Ben in front of the forien plate.

[@rogerszmodis]

Condonation is a perfectly cromulent word. It’s in one of those Oxford English Dictionary volumes behind you.

[@Tathanic]

At most you could ask him to pay for any supplies used, letting your employees do it could be also good for company moral

[@mikezupancic2182]

At most? No it was theft.

[@andybonneau9209]

If you can't fire a guy for violating policy, how do you enforce policy? Policy should include written sanctions.

[@Brian-db7ej]

Three minutes from the posting of a 12 minute video and already 38 people give it a thumbs up.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

Not unusual and for the Al Gore Rhythm

[@jess_o]

Must be some kind of conspiracy

[@kamX-rz4uy]

I always give the thumbs up at the start because I've never seen a bad video from Steve.

[@demuskumarius]

You shouldn't need told that stealing from your job and your community will get you fired. This should be be obvious.

[@rogue13131313]

They were lookin for a reason to fire him. Another coward employer.

[@richlobato8664]

" not a country made up of condominiums". Steve, youre killing me !! Ha ha.

[@Grantherum]

The problem I have with this is the "you probably shouldn't do it" or "it's frowned upon", isn't a "Doing it isn't allowed". One is a wishy washy statement, and one is a definitive response of a rule... whether written or "common knowledge".

[@MB-ig6gl]

My old company used to let people come in on off days for personal things (the rule was no side hustle stuff). But it eventually ended when a couple people complained of others using it too much or that they themselves couldn't do it (like say use some welding equipment). It wasn't abuse but management not wanting to hear the complaints that got that shut down.

[@yunofun]

Company I used to work for would let you do stuff like that as well. A lot of the guys would buy cheap 4x4 posts and mill them down to 1x boards or breaking down sheet goods. Problem was they were supposed to do it only when the equipment wasn't in use so after a few complaints from the pallet crews about not being able to build a crate because some dingbat was using the bandsaw for 3 hours it got ended pretty quick.

[@P_RO_]

A true story: A construction site Superintendent was PO'ed when it came to light that a handful of guys made it a habit to leave a few minutes early nearly every day. Wanting to set an example ho told the timekeeper to fire the first ten guys who left that day (right-to-work State so that was legal). The next day he noticed the crane wasn't in use. His brother-in-law was the only crane operator so he figured that maybe he was sick or needed to do something that day so he let it go. When the same thing happened the next day, after work he drove to his brother-in-laws house and asked him why he hadn't been working as the job was falling behind because of that. His B-I-L replied "Because you fired me you SOB!" It turned out that on that one single day the guy needed to get off early and had arranged for that in the field with those who needed his crane so nothing would fall behind. He got his job back and the Superintendent learned to be careful with what you wish for because you just might get your wish.

[@TimeSurfer206]

Here's my take. IANAL, but, I have been a Supervisor enough to know about this one word: Liability. _If you are not ON THE CLOCK, you are not covered under my Contractor's Insurance!_ I worked for a company that used to let their employees take the Company Truck home. All it took was one employee causing a DUI fatality to fuck that off. And you can thank your own brothers for that, Steve.

[@Failure_Is_An_Option]

Cool story. You can say or be anything on the internet.