Can the U-Point selections in DxO Photolab hold up to the AI selections in other software? YES! :)

[@MRing1107]

For landscape photography I can kind of see your point. Once you add people though, Lightroom’s AI masks are just so far ahead it’s actually sad for someone who hopes for robust competition. 95% of my photography involves people, so every year I try the latest from ON1 and DXO and every year I keep paying Adobe. (C1 is just too expensive for me) If you compare the ease of taking a shot of, say, a kid running through water at a splash pad, and try to quickly mask certain things, in both LrC and DXO I think you’ll see the difference. LrC often nails the people selections well enough to need no refinement at all.

[@dxflow3271]

If it is basic like brighten the face a little or the like, I find I can often do what I want in DxO, but one experience I had... I had shot a portrait against a backdrop and the backdrop was about 2 stops brighter than I wanted. So I needed to darken the Backdrop by 2 stops without any halo or fringing. I can say the only way I could do that (without a lot more time and work in Photoshop) was in lightroom. The mask wasn't perfect but it was very close and then with the intersect function I could clean it up. So props to Lightroom for that one. For me DxO 95% of the time does what I need without fuss. But I totally respect your experiences and your choices. We all use what makes the most sense for us at any given time. And I don't doubt Adobe is meeting your needs. Especially in terms of AI they seem from my limited perspective to be leading the pack.

[@jessejayphotography]

DxO needs to make U-Point circle configurable so it can operate as a more flexible radial tool. They need to turn their magic brush into a U-Point aware tool that isn’t worthless. AI subject recognition is probably going to be required to stay competitive. It would also be wonderful if they had exposure blending ability. Perhaps with U-Point and luminosity flavor masking of two or more photo “layers” instead of LrC automated merge tool.

[@dxflow3271]

I would love to see a little shape possibility on the U-point circle too... a chance to make it more oval, because the control point can totally become a radial tool if you turn down the chroma and Luma, but the ability to shape that a little more would be super cool. I am excited to see what PL8 brings.

[@sword-and-shield]

No subscription will ALWAYS keep them competitive, regardless.

[@SergNikiforovGordeev]

Thanks for the thoughts and examples. Very consonant.

[@dxflow3271]

Glad it was helpful!

[@HadleyHope]

Thanks for this I guess it boils down to what you are used to. From the videos that I have seen you can draw rectangles with the AI brush in Capture One to easily extend the selection, and as you say in ON1 the mask can easily be modified. To be honest the last part with the hill and foreshore looks very messy with all those control points. My opinion is that the base Photolab seems to lean to the more correcting photos which it is very good at, especially playing nice with Fuji RAWS, where the other tools seem to be better for "Artistic" edits.

[@dxflow3271]

I did on a few of my goes before I filmed try drawing out a rectangle on that spot and it didn't seem to help much. I fully admit the could be user error there. Cheers.

[@dxflow3271]

Oh and yes... A bunch of control points can look messy for sure... That's why I love my workflow in my recent new workflow video that hides the points while you adjust.

[@SergNikiforovGordeev]

Inspired by your thoughts, Master, about the weaknesses of artificial intelligence, I applied a new approach for myself. I'm sharing. I work on the competition of young boxers in the ring. The boys are overly emotional during fights. On the pre-developed frame, I highlight important characters with control points: fighters, coaches watching the fights, referees. I invert these points and lower the exposure a little. It turns out to be a great focus on the main characters. Adds a lot of dynamics. I am very pleased that my intelligence quickly does what it would be difficult for an artificial one to do. )))

[@dxflow3271]

Sounds like a very interesting project.

[@alangauld6079]

U point tech is AI, albeit a very early form of it. But it is analyzing the surrounding image to form a selection and yes, the algorithm is baked in, but it is part of the "expert system" class of AI engineering. Modern AI is not doing anything new it's just that we now have the networking and CPU speeds to make it practical on domestic class computers whereas previously it was restricted to computer labs with big mainframes. Plus, we now have much, much, bigger data sources to trawl. When Nik designed U points they had a very small data source and it was mainly the expert knowledge embedded in the algorithm that had to be coded into the software. Also, DxO is using modern AI: DeepPrime noise reduction is fully AI based, it's only in the selection area that they are lagging. And I've not seen anything to suggest that they won't be using AI there in the future.

[@dxflow3271]

I don't know the deep technical definition really... So can't comment too much on that. But I see what you mean. And yes who knows what the future will bring.

[@rickshapiro63]

You say that was not a lot of work but it looks like you had to create a dozen or so upoints, including negative lines to get your masking to where you needed. That seems like a lot more work rather than AI selecting and simply refining. The clean up tools are pretty quick in C1 and ON1. The fact that upoints do not provide 100% fill makes it hard to apply color changes where graduations are more visable . More irksome is DXO not adding diffusion from Nik or Luminosity masks to PL. I like DXO but they are gong to have a hard road ahead for a number of reason but the biggest issue is lack of innovative and competitive features.

[@dxflow3271]

Yes... I wasn't trying to say upoint is better than AI. I was suggesting on balance they both need a little tweaking and as a result I don't think AI in its current state rules the roost. I think that on average I would keep up with an AI user and can produce as good a result. As I say, there may be some images where AI does better and may be some where upoint does better... But it isn't night and day... But if it is a big difference for your situation... I totally understand and appreciate that is totally possible. Cheers

[@AlexTabachnyy]

I used several editors with AI capabilities. I actually found very similar results as you did. AI may eventually be able to select more precisely than range select tools, but I think after the buzz word gets old people will eventually gravitate back to the range select tools. Range select tools like U-point, luminosity and chroma masking… although not clean of a selection, the end result tends to be more natural and photographic. I was able to do some crazy cool selections with AI help but my end result had a more obvious photoshop look. I just wish DXO developers would add more selection tools, like: global image luma/ chroma range mask like lightroom. In addition to control line and point, it would be so amazingly useful to have a local adjustment brush mask tool that has a control point just like control line. Having such tool would allow a user to make local adjustments in a brush specified area, by setting a point on what to control within the mask and refine mask by adjusting the range by color and luminance to edit within the masked area. With a brush like that would be priceless! DXO developers are so close with current tools but not quite. Their range select tools are still trailing behind unfortunately.

[@dxflow3271]

I like your control brush idea... Wouldn't be super different from a control point or points... But would allow that small bit of extra control wouldn't it.

[@macsprotte1436]

For me it is classic radial mask I am missing the most in DxO. I do not get why there is none. The U-Point is kind of a radial mask, but i did not find how to morph it into an elliptic form for example.

[@dxflow3271]

@@macsprotte1436 Agreed. Best other than that that you could try is to use the brush large and soft. But not quite the same.

[@AlexTabachnyy]

You may already know this, but I have seen a technique done with control point and selecting invert mask. After reducing the Luma and chroma sliders in the Mask Selectivity panel, which created a nice smooth radial mask. Hope that helps.

[@macsprotte1436]

@@AlexTabachnyy No, I do not know that. Thank you for your kind advice!

[@macsprotte1436]

Interesting point of view. I get your point. The outstanding precision of DxO compensates al lot compared to other developers. On the other hand I do not think that DxO will be successful in the long run with ignoring AI.

[@dxflow3271]

Hard to say... But agree in time AI might be better. Certainly worth some thought I am sure.

[@williamgollatz1911]

Their noise reduction is literally machine learning, which is artificial intelligence.

[@ericpecquerie4868]

Be careful, DXO may die if they do not move on> you may be right Upoints at great, but it is difficult to resist to progress

[@dxflow3271]

Maybe... I do worry too. But who knows what the future will bring. Maybe only those who aren't knee deep in AI will be the ones people flock to in the future??? LOL - yes that is perhaps overly optimistic.

[@calcorstudios-rvcstevenson3666]

This one will not age well. Like saying you don't need GPS because you are happy with your maps. Topaz subject selection is nearly as flawless as it is effortless. DXO will die unless they move on. Like Kodak resisting digital or Canon fighting mirrorless for so long. DXO is already behind and may not recover.

[@dxflow3271]

That's fine. Just sharing my personal thoughts... And I didn't age well either... And yes I knew this one would be controversial but it is how I see it currently.

[@calcorstudios-rvcstevenson3666]

@@dxflow3271 Sorry if I came off as harsh, but I knew that DXO would double down on Upoint rather than introduce some AI options. I think it is a big mistake and will relegate PhotoLab to oblivion. It is already niche.

[@dxflow3271]

No worries. Yeah... Not sure if you made it through the whole video... But that was a comment I made near the end... That I feel upoint holds its own now... But I suspect ai will overtake in time... And then it might be a consideration for me.

[@oktait]

OMG, it is like m43 bloggers constantly peddling that they do not need FF...

[@dxflow3271]

Hahaha... Can I take it you are on the AI rules side of this. Like what you use, and use what you like. If I ever make a t-shirt that's what will be on it.